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Silicon Nanoparticles Could Lead To On-Demand Hydrogen Generation

cylonlover writes "Researchers at the University of Buffalo have created spherical silicon nanoparticles they claim could lead to hydrogen generation on demand becoming a 'just add water' affair. When the particles are combined with water, they rapidly form hydrogen and silicic acid, a nontoxic byproduct, in a reaction that requires no light, heat or electricity. In experiments, the hydrogen produced was shown to be relatively pure by successfully being used to power a small fan via a small fuel cell."

163 comments

  1. Honest, Officer by mbstone · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wasn't having an illegal campfire on the beach. It was the sand reacting with the seawater.

    1. Re:Honest, Officer by slashmydots · · Score: 4, Funny

      Having a fire on the beach and having the beach on fire are two completely different things

    2. Re:Honest, Officer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Off is short for Ofilia, his mom's name. He wasn't offended he was thanking you by giving you a gift.

    3. Re:Honest, Officer by richtopia · · Score: 4, Informative

      Keep in mind that hydrogen burns clear, so it will be pretty hard for the officer to discover the fire

    4. Re:Honest, Officer by tilante · · Score: 2

      Flames of pure hydrogen are very hard to see - however, when there are impurities present and also burning, the flame can be very easy to see. See, for example, photos of the Hindenburg burning. Using sea water, the flame would likely be very visible. See, for example, this video showing sea water being burned using a different process for extracting hydrogen from it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8utkoK2DhA

    5. Re:Honest, Officer by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

      This reminds me of yesterday's article - cooling with lasers.

      Myself, I once started a forest fire, being careless with an ice cube.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    6. Re:Honest, Officer by mspohr · · Score: 1

      The officer would probably get tipped off when your pants caught fire.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    7. Re:Honest, Officer by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Liar, Liar!

    8. Re:Honest, Officer by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Having a fire on the beach and having the beach on fire are two completely different things

      Time to share one of the most entertaining bits of chemistry writing that I've seen for ages : "It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively."

      "Fun" stuff, for suitably small values of "fun".

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    9. Re:Honest, Officer by riT-k0MA · · Score: 1

      Could this ClF3 your link talks about be the active component of Alien Blood?

    10. Re:Honest, Officer by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      If it is ... here's the shotgun - you shoot things at it while I run like fuck!

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. The key question becomes by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How much energy to create the silicon nanoparticles.

    1. Re:The key question becomes by jcr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If it's less than the energy used to make conventional, disposable batteries of equivalent power, it's a win. Even if it's more costly than that in energy terms, it could still be a win from a weight to power ratio standpoint.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    2. Re:The key question becomes by LurkerXXX · · Score: 1

      And what's the weight ratio of the particles to the amount of hydrogen produced by them.

    3. Re:The key question becomes by R_Ramjet · · Score: 5, Informative

      Significant. From the article: "Though it takes significant energy and resources to produce the super-small silicon balls, the particles could help power portable devices in situations where water is available and portability is more important than low cost."

    4. Re:The key question becomes by snarkh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if it is neither of those it can still be a win if it is non-toxic or easy to dispose of.

    5. Re:The key question becomes by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Interesting. However, how "reusable" is it? I'm guessing it's not very which will just add to the expense, meaning that ultimately this is a pretty niche product.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    6. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what's the lifecycle that gives us more silicon nanoparticles from the resulting acid? Though it looks like the acid might be usable as a health supplement?

    7. Re:The key question becomes by SJHillman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm hoping this doesn't turn into another "butbutbut but it still takes more energy to make than it gives back!" argument. The key here is making the stored energy portable. Gasoline takes a lot more energy to drill, transport and refine than it gives back, but the end product is very portable so the premium is worth it compared to stuff like coal or natural gas that (presumably, I don't really know) takes less effort to get to the end product. However, coal is pretty impractical for portable applications like cars, lawn mowers or snowmobiles.

      Water, on the other hand, has every advantage of gas (liquid can be pumped, etc) with additional advantages such as being much more renewable, much greater availability, much easier to get to and not being explosive if you decide to smoke while filling up. The only problem is that we haven't found a way to convert water into hydrogen fuel (which cannot be as easily stored or transported as water) at the point of use - either the pump or, better yet, whatever needs the fuel. If silicon nanoparticles can do that and you only need to swap in a new silicon nanoparticle cartridge every few thousand miles then it's well worth the extra energy to create them in the first place.

    8. Re:The key question becomes by jlebrech · · Score: 1

      The amount of energy required doesn't matter as long as it's made with clean energy and it's energy density is large enough.

      You could then make nano particles in the Gobi desert with a solar station or with a LFTR nuclear reactor in china or india, or even create those in space.

    9. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Bomb Africa (directly or indirectly) to get raw materials.
      2) Use and create toxic wastes to create the battery.
      3) Exaust the battery to get toxic wastes.
      4) Use toxics to trash the battery.

      How can be worst than that?
      Read point 1 again

    10. Re:The key question becomes by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Both this question and the next one roll into what is called the "Life Cycle Analysis" the net output per unit input.

      Remember, there is energy extraction, and energy packaging. Petroleum is a huge win, because it is both - refining is relatively cheap, and it packages the result. This is not energy extraction - there is a large input, but it makes a convenient fuel cell package that gets around the problem of storing hydrogen. Since hydrogen is very chemically reactive, it's a big problem in having a hydrogen based energy chain.

      The input cost is essential, especially the theoretical efficiency, against other forms of energy storage. This would include how stable the nano-particles are, because water is ubiquitous.

      However it could be great for renewables, because the onsite wind farm or what have you, could be used to generate the silnaparts and this stores them. It could also be good for nuclear power, which runs continuously, and thus reduce the need for peak capacity, which is heavily carbon dominated. Even if not very efficient it could significantly reduce carbon footprint, because there would be no concern about the major problems of current bulk energy storage: gravity is environmentally destructive, and batteries have rather low cycle limits.

    11. Re:The key question becomes by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Theoretical efficiency could be a great deal lower. We are about as good at producing nano anything as Assyrians were at producing steel.

    12. Re:The key question becomes by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 4, Informative
      Actually the LCA of petroleum is excellent, that's one of the reasons it took over the world.

      It just has unfortunate side effects: it is killing us, and killing our ecosystem, which we are rather dependent on, there being no other garden worlds.

    13. Re:The key question becomes by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1

      That's a gross overstatement: this is competing with lithium batteries, gravity storage, and the like. It has to be better at creating applications for at least some range of circumstances than current energy storage. This could be a small set, or quite large.

    14. Re:The key question becomes by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Then the question is "how much energy does it take to crack the oxygen back out from the acid?" Start burning that hydrogen everywhere for decades and we'll have a little less oxygen in the atmosphere. Ordinary water cracking leaves the proper amount of H and O for future reacting.

    15. Re:The key question becomes by Shivetya · · Score: 1

      plus you can take all that off peak wind power and similar to power the plants that create the nano particles thereby reducing the risk to investors on both sides.

      I guess the concern comes down to, how clean must the water supply be? It would be very valuable if it can work with different level of containments up to and including salt water

      --
      * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    16. Re:The key question becomes by famebait · · Score: 0

      Gasoline takes a lot more energy to drill, transport and refine than it gives back

      Really?
      Did you just make that up?
      Source?

      --
      sudo ergo sum
    17. Re:The key question becomes by DeathToBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      Um, no. It typically takes around 4MJ/L (just over 1kWhr/L) to refine petrol, while the energy content is 35MJ/L. Drilling and transport add a little to that, but it's negligible compared to refining it. If it wasn't so, using it would have a net negative impact on our energy supply and no-one would use it.

      --
      Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
    18. Re:The key question becomes by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      has every advantage of gas (liquid can be pumped, etc)

      ... unless you live in Minnesota or some other cold climate.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    19. Re:The key question becomes by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      The advantage would be storing the necessary energy in solid, chemically useful form and producing only non toxic byproducts. It won't be free or probably even cheap energy. And it's still only hydrogen that has to be reacted again at an additional energy loss to do work.

    20. Re:The key question becomes by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      The water you use is safe. The nanoparticles are high reactivity and give off hydrogen when exposed to water, so they are not so safe.

    21. Re:The key question becomes by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      The next most important ones becomes what do we do with the hydrogen?

      It embrittles metal, it seeps through everything, if it powered cars garages would have to be built in such a way to allow it to escape, hydrogen power has lots of really fundamental issues.

    22. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the LCA of petroleum is excellent, that's one of the reasons it took over the world.

      It just has unfortunate side effects: it is killing us, and killing our ecosystem, which we are rather dependent on, there being no other garden worlds.

      At least it doesn't turn us all into explosive, glowing mutants.

    23. Re:The key question becomes by slashmydots · · Score: 1

      I just bought a solar powered 1500maH battery pack with full sized USB port for powering or charging devices. I bet that's lighter, easier, safer, and results in less fire.

    24. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I forgot that tap-water doesn't work in those nations.

      But you just had to post something negative without thinking first, didn't you?

    25. Re:The key question becomes by ciggieposeur · · Score: 4, Informative

      Indeed. I work for one of the major "silicon crushers". Converting sand to metallurgical grade silicon (97%+) takes an arc furnace, lots of electrical power required. Then comes grinding and classifying it and most processes deliberately spray the dust with water to put an oxide layer on the particles to prevent a dust explosion.

    26. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'it seeps through everything,...in such a way to allow it to escape...'

      If it seeps through everything why do you have to 'allow' it to escape?

    27. Re:The key question becomes by VortexCortex · · Score: 5, Funny

      If your pathetic genome had better redundancy and error correction you wouldn't care about the radiation.

      Oh wook at da poor wittle hue-mans, can't come out an pway in the milky way because them scawed for cosmic rays. Have fun being grounded dork!

    28. Re:The key question becomes by Tapewolf · · Score: 1

      It embrittles metal, it seeps through everything, if it powered cars garages would have to be built in such a way to allow it to escape, hydrogen power has lots of really fundamental issues.

      That's why you want on-demand production.

    29. Re:The key question becomes by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I can't help but wonder how much it would take to ramp up to evalutate the process up to the level of generic production using 1kWhr/L as units of evaluation?

    30. Re:The key question becomes by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1
      You have it reversed: the silnanparts plus water, represent the energy storage, when energy is needed, the two are combined, the resulting hydrogen is immediately used in a fuel cell, which liberates the energy. The silnaparts represent a potentially economically viable way of getting around the hydrogen problem. Thus one possible applicatio cycle would be: store energy from either renewable or nuclear source (both of which are not on demand) in the form of silnaparts, generate energy on demand from water. This would replace kerosene turbines and other forms of "peak" generation, which have terrible carbon density. The hydrogen is only around long enough to feed the fuel cell.

      If this better than batteries or gravity storage, it could mean recapturing a great deal of lost power and lowering carbon emissions. However, some variables are not answered in the paper.

    31. Re:The key question becomes by jcr · · Score: 1

      That, too.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    32. Re:The key question becomes by jcr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think you have a grasp of the scale of the earth's atmosphere. This might be an issue for people aboard a space station, but on earth it's insignificant.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    33. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, no. It typically takes around 4MJ/L (just over 1kWhr/L) to refine petrol, while the energy content is 35MJ/L. Drilling and transport add a little to that, but it's negligible compared to refining it. If it wasn't so, using it would have a net negative impact on our energy supply and no-one would use it.

      How much energy did it take for plant and animal matter to be compressed and heated into oil? Just because nature did it for us for millions of years does not mean it made enough for us to keep using it, and when you take that energy and time into concideration in your equation, creating oil and then refining it into gasoline becomes a net loss of energy.

    34. Re:The key question becomes by rot26 · · Score: 0

      because water is ubiquitous.

      This will not necessarily always be the case. And somewhere, some bureaucrat is already scheming to figure out how to tax water.

      --



      To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
    35. Re:The key question becomes by dave420 · · Score: 2

      Like, say, the amount of CO2? Honest question.

    36. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only problem is that we haven't found a way to convert water into hydrogen fuel (which cannot be as easily stored or transported as water) at the point of use

      Sure we do: electrolysis. Problem being that it's very wasteful in both terms of transport and energy efficiency.

    37. Re:The key question becomes by rot26 · · Score: 2

      It's a feature, not a bug.

      --



      To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
    38. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 internets to you sirrah. That is a factor that few take into account. I'm posting anonymously in your honor.

    39. Re:The key question becomes by SJHillman · · Score: 2

      Gas is stored underground at gas stations. Store water underground and it's pretty easy to maintain it at a temperature above freezing... even in climates much colder than Minnesota.

      It's also not too difficult to keep it as a liquid using other methods ranging from passive to active.

    40. Re:The key question becomes by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      It seems obvious that the particles are an energy storage material. OK, since oxygen is used in the full set of reactions I suppose the particles are also acting as fuel. Regardless, they are consumed in the process. You start with water, and end with water, except a bunch of oxygen has reacted with these particles. IMHO this is still somewhat interesting.

    41. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. I work for one of the major "silicon crushers". Converting sand to metallurgical grade silicon (97%+) takes an arc furnace, lots of electrical power required. Then comes grinding and classifying it and most processes deliberately spray the dust with water to put an oxide layer on the particles to prevent a dust explosion.

      Are you the sand people?

    42. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right because it's "Fossil Fuel" all that plant matter on Titan was compressed to make it's methane based atmosphere. Oh wait.... * However, you argument still holds irregardless of your flawed understanding of the geological science of petroleum products. Entropy will kill us all in the end.*1

      *http://www.amazon.com/Black-Gold-Stranglehold-Jerome-Corsi/dp/B003D7JVJS

      http://www.amazon.com/Black-Gold-Stranglehold-Jerome-Corsi/dp/B003D7JVJS

      *1 http://filer.case.edu/dts8/thelastq.htm
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

    43. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      No need to, the oxygen wasn't in the atmosphere, it was bound to the hydrogen in the water molecules. Water is burned hydrogen, so this oxygen was already "lost".

    44. Re:The key question becomes by mapsjanhere · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is strictly for military applications. The US forces in Afghanistan use 28 gallons of fuel to deliver one gallon of fuel to an outpost where a 3 gal/h generator charges an Ipod (don't laugh, that's from an US Army presentation). So, if I can charge my devices of a fuel cell fed by something like this silicon hydrogen generator I might save money not because it's energy efficient in production but energy efficient at the point of use. The reason they use silicon is that it gives you 1 gram of hydrogen per 8 grams of silicon. You could use other, cheaper, metals, but the weight ratio isn't as favorable (iron would require something like 20 to 1). As 1 kg of hydrogen gives you 127 MJ of energy, 1 kg of silicone powder gives you about 15 MJ. Compare that to a battery that gives you less than one MJ/kg, and you see the attractiveness if weight is at a premium.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    45. Re:The key question becomes by daem0n1x · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're right, because internal combustion engines don't spend oxygen!

    46. Re:The key question becomes by Culture20 · · Score: 2

      No need to, the oxygen wasn't in the atmosphere, it was bound to the hydrogen in the water molecules. Water is burned hydrogen, so this oxygen was already "lost".

      Except this method doesn't release the oxygen. The oxygen gets bound into the acid. So when new water is created from the burned hydrogen, it comes from the atmosphere (or some oxidizing agent). With a net "loss" of oxygen to the acid.

    47. Re:The key question becomes by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      We already have a process for putting that oxygen back into the atmosphere: plant photosynthesis. What is the process for this acid?

    48. Re:The key question becomes by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      That's why I qualified it with "a little less". This isn't an "almost forever" technology like fusion or solar usable for millions of years. Pumping CO2 into the atmo is nothing compared to reducing available O2. With the exception of anaerobic bacteria and archaea, everyone likes oxygen, even plants (the CO2 variety of oxygen at least).

    49. Re:The key question becomes by fizzer06 · · Score: 1

      This actually makes sense if you assume Big Oil runs the US government and their goal is to fuck over the tax payers.

    50. Re:The key question becomes by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      Why would we need a process? We take the oxygen from water, put it in acid. No atmosphere involved.

    51. Re:The key question becomes by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      I would also ask if the particles are "used up" in the process. The article doesn't say and I'm not familiar enough with the chemistry to know.

      If they are not used up then you have a whole different equation. A one time high cost depreciated over some years of use could be a huge win.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    52. Re:The key question becomes by Redmancometh · · Score: 1

      How does that make him a "randwanker," and wtf is a randwanker. His comment didnt seem biased at all. Your just reaching for something to get your pannies in a bunch. People like you make me nauseas. Also doesnt sales tax apply to bottled water already?

    53. Re:The key question becomes by rgbatduke · · Score: 5, Informative

      Where does silicon come from? Silicon dioxide, a.k.a. "sand". How tightly is it bound? Very, very, very tightly. Indeed, a whopping 910.86 kJ/mole. So it requires at LEAST this much energy to turn sand into silicon and oxygen, except that one cannot electrolyze or reduce it until it is molten, so add to this enough energy to melt sand, after raising its temperature to some 1500 C. Then, one has to engineer "nanoparticles" out of the purified silicon metal. At a guess -- only a guess, of course -- this involves heating the silicon to the vaporization point and either vapor depositing it on a suitable substrate and scraping off the nanoparticles or spraying silicon vapor into a suitable medium that causes it to condense out small particles and then filtering or otherwise separating out the 'nano' particles from those that are merely small. Sounds like more energy to me.

      At the end of the day, you can get at most the 250 or so kJ/mole back from the hydrogen gas produced after the silicon nanoparticles steal the hydrogen back from water. I think it would be an absolute miracle if it this is as much as 10% of the energy invested in making the nanoparticles, and the energy costs are probably at most half of the total manufacturing costs. Down to 5%. Multiply by roughly 50% again (efficiency of fuel cell).

      This "Fermi estimate" of the probable economic efficiency is on the order of 2.5%, then, compared to the cost of just buying electricity or any other form of concentrated energy. Even if I'm too aggressive in my pessimism, 10% is a pretty safe upper bound. I'm not seeing this as a game changer. Gasoline or other hydrocarbons are still the gold standard for readily available energy density at ballpark 35 MJ/liter, and don't require investing 20 times the energy eventually recovered in their preparation.

      rgb

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    54. Re:The key question becomes by RalphTheWonderLlama · · Score: 1

      Such as wind energy? So you don't have to run transmission lines everywhere? Make balls and truck them to the nearest railroad every so often. It could be a boon for expanding wind energy.

      --
      simple, fast homepage with your links: http://www.ngumbi.com/
    55. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Calm down there, geek. Don't go shooting up a school or anything. How deep into ideological bullshit must you be to think you can profile the guy based on one silly quip? You sound like someone with severe mental issues.

    56. Re:The key question becomes by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      One wonders if the irony of your statement was intentional, or whether you were even aware of it.

    57. Re:The key question becomes by tilante · · Score: 1

      The oxygen in the acid came from the water. The oxygen that's coming from the atmosphere to to combine with the hydrogen when burning it becomes water - specifically, water vapor which goes off in the flame to mix with the rest of the atmosphere... where it can then be used by plants for photosynthesis.

      For the acid itself, if you'll read the article, you'll see that it's silicic acid. You can then look up 'silicic acid' on Google, which took me to the Wikipedia page for it, where it mentions that silicic acids (apparently there's a whole family of them): (a) tend to lose their water content easily, drying out to become silica gel and water; (b) have been suggested as a possible nutritional supplement to help prevent Alzheimer's, since they tend to absorb aluminum, which has been implicated in Alzheimers, and (c) in the ocean are used by diatoms to build their silicon-based 'skeletons'. So, it doesn't look like disposal of the acid would be much of a problem.

    58. Re:The key question becomes by afidel · · Score: 1

      Why are they using a generator to charge the ipad? A 13W solar panel and battery that can charge the ipad several times over cost me $150 and will supply power virtually forever (the battery will eventually run out of charge cycles, but even then you can use the panel output as long as the sun is shining). My panel even provided a useful level of charge in the middle of Hurricane Sandy, so it's not like a pressure system would leave them without power. Slightly more efficient ways to get stored power to the front lines doesn't seem to be the right way to tackle the problem from my vantage point.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    59. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The partial pressure of CO2 in air has risen by about 0.007 atmospheres over the past 50 years. That's had a substantial effect on the total atmospheric CO2, which stands around 0.03 atmospheres. Oxygen, on the other hand, stands around 0.21 atmospheres, and a change of 0.005-0.01 is (comparatively) minuscule.

    60. Re:The key question becomes by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Because the big ass generator can run the dishwasher, dryer, big assed radio AND charge the iPod. The solar panels can only charge the iPod.

      But yes, the military is looking into portable (in the military sense of the word) solar / battery set ups that can run a small town.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    61. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Given that the silicon will be extracted from SiO2 or silicates, the process of creating the nanoparticles in the first place will release oxygen bound to the silicate raw materials, the oxygen balance will even out.

    62. Re:The key question becomes by MTorrice · · Score: 1

      They make the nanoparticles from silane gas. The process is very energy intensive and produces CO2. So a pretty long tailpipe on this technology. You probably need more energy than you can create. Also it's unclear if these particles are better than magnesium hydride, which is the material of choice in many prototype fuel cells.

    63. Re:The key question becomes by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why aren't you the Secretary of the Dept. of Energy? I can't understand how a Nobel laureate physicist is running things and seems to be in complete denial about the practical aspects of energy policy. He seems to think we can power the world on puppies and raibows, and it will only cost a billion times more, but everything will work out in the end in magical fantasy land.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    64. Re:The key question becomes by MTorrice · · Score: 1

      The particles get used up in the process, producing silicon oxides.

    65. Re:The key question becomes by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 2

      I guess we'll know if he comes back... in greater numbers.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    66. Re:The key question becomes by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      So... robotic orbital solar furnaces, dropping unmanned capsules of water ignition material down to Earth?

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    67. Re:The key question becomes by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      [snip]So, it doesn't look like disposal of the acid would be much of a problem.

      And if it does become a problem, we'll just import some silver-backed gorillas to deal with the acid.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    68. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much energy would it require to get nanoparticles from the silicon in all of the things we've made out of silicon within the last century?

    69. Re:The key question becomes by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Then we'll be overrun with gorillas!

    70. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How similar to asbestos are these silicon nanoparticles?

    71. Re:The key question becomes by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Because if we don't take the oxygen back out from the acid, then the hydrogen will be burning atmospheric oxygen, and the oxygen in the acid will just keep getting trapped. If you're looking to sequester oxygen, this is a good plan. If you're looking to feed a currently adopted cycle, burning plant matter (or organic sludge from ancient plant matter) is a better option. So, you have to look at the energy costs both to create the silicon and the energy costs to free the oxygen. If together they don't match the energy it takes to just free both via electrolysis, then you're at a net energy loss.

    72. Re:The key question becomes by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Given that the silicon will be extracted from SiO2 or silicates, the process of creating the nanoparticles in the first place will release oxygen bound to the silicate raw materials, the oxygen balance will even out.

      Didn't think of that. Thanks!

    73. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is just a guess based on context, but I think a "randwanker" is someone who masturbates while reading Atlas Shrugged.

    74. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It may be cheap to turn the silicic acid back into the silicon nanoparticles.

    75. Re:The key question becomes by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      And you have to look at it like dehydrated food. In lots of situations you have easy access to water even if you have no access to fuel or food. So for instance when backpacking you carry dehydrated food since the water makes up most of the weight while being easily accessible in the wilderness.

      So while you might need 28 gallons of water to deliver 1 gallon equivalent of gasoline with this silicon system--it's probably pretty easy to find 28 gallons of water nearby--especially if potability isn't a concern.

    76. Re:The key question becomes by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      A randwanker is someone who thinks they understand and have destroyed the logical argument for libertarianism.

      Really they are mentally masturbating on their strawman.

      There are million of them on /.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    77. Re:The key question becomes by jafac · · Score: 1

      I would suggest that instead of mining more silicon dioxide from beaches, you use the waste product as your feedstock for the silicon nanoparticle production. (in bulk) - since you're applying enough energy to get it up to 1500 C anyway, you're going to disassociate that oxygen, (and probably release it as a waste product). Thus, in NET, no oxygen is removed from the atmosphere.

      (obviously, the process won't be perfect, so there will be small losses - likely oxygen being bound-up with other reactants during the silicon nanoparticle production process)

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    78. Re:The key question becomes by icebike · · Score: 1

      Except this method doesn't release the oxygen. The oxygen gets bound into the acid. So when new water is created from the burned hydrogen, it comes from the atmosphere (or some oxidizing agent). With a net "loss" of oxygen to the acid.

      The wiki article on Silicic acids seems to suggest that in an aqueous solution, the silicic acids readily lose water to form silica gel.

      So it might be that most of the oxygen is returned to the water, leaving some small packets of silica gel labeled "do not eat" littering the roadway.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    79. Re:The key question becomes by jafac · · Score: 1

      The chemical pathway followed by oxygen through carbon is much more easily recovered, and that is done naturally, through photosynthesis. (though - the rate of oxygen recovery is somewhat lower than our rate of production).

      In this case, there simply is NO natural recovery pathway.
      Unless some fantastic genetic engineering process is able to create an organism capable of breaking down the silicon waste product into components, releasing the oxygen.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    80. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, this will NOT be a storage solution for renewables or nuclear. It takes a fuckton of energy to make nanoparticles, most of which is impossible to recover.

      Nor will it be a new type of battery, since it is so much more complicated than an ordinary battery, and non-rechargable as well.

      I don't even think it's going to be a good fuel. Ammonia and methanol stored as liquids appear to be more energy dense in terms of mass and volume.

    81. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1kg of silicon powder gives 15MJ? Wood has a higher specific energy density, and wood is probably cheaper also.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_content_of_biofuel#Energy_and_CO2_output_of_common_fuels

      Gasoline has a specific energy density _three times that_.

    82. Re:The key question becomes by Namarrgon · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of "fossil fuels" on Earth are biotic in origin. Abiotic hydrocarbons do of course exist, and are plentiful on Titan, but are relatively rare on Earth.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    83. Re:The key question becomes by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 2

      No one makes nanoparticles in large quantity by vapor deposition. You react the silicon to a suitable precursor and then reduce it gently. It's a very high yielding reaction. Silicon tetrachloride would be one example of a precursor you could use (I think there's a few others - there's a guy in my lab who makes a lot of silicon quantum dots).

      The big question is how easy it is to go from silicic acid back to nanoparticles - if it can be done electrochemically and relatively efficiently then what's been discovered is a very efficient catalytic process for cracking hydrogen from water.

    84. Re:The key question becomes by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      All the silicon in the world was produced by releasing oxygen into the atmosphere when it was refined. No danger there.

    85. Re:The key question becomes by jcochran · · Score: 2

      I don't believe you've taken into consideration the oxygen released from converting Silicon Dioxide into Silicon and Oxygen. Looking up Silicic acid, it's a generic term for a family of related acids. Looking at the 4 simplest ones, I get the following equations.

      Si + 3 H2O => H2SiO3 + 2 H2
      Si + 4 H2O => H4SiO4 + 2 H2
      2 Si + 5 H2O => H2Si2O5 + 4 H2
      2 Si + 7 H2O => H6Si2O7 + 4 H2

      For all of the above equations, each Silicon atom will result in the generation of 2 hydrogen molecules (4 atoms). Which requires 2 Oxygen atoms to convert into 2 molecules of water when burned. However, to create each Silicon atom, one had to break down a Silicon Dioxide molecule .... Which in return released the 2 Oxygen atoms needed to burn the resulting Hydrogen. And just in case you now attempt to claim that it's consuming water. If you dry out the various forms of Silicic acids, you'll find out that they disassociate into various numbers of water molecules and Silicon Dioxide.

      It all balances out. All we have is a system in which we can spend energy converting Silicon Dioxide into Silicon and Oxygen. And then use the resulting Silicon to react with water to get dissolved Silicon Dioxide and Hydrogen. And finally, react the resulting Hydrogen with the Oxygen released earlier to get back water.
       

    86. Re:The key question becomes by spacecowboy420 · · Score: 1

      May seem like a stupid question, but are these silicon particles consumed during this process?

      --
      ymmv
    87. Re:The key question becomes by Wintermute__ · · Score: 1

      In this case, there simply is NO natural recovery pathway.
      Unless some fantastic genetic engineering process is able to create an organism capable of breaking down the silicon waste product into components, releasing the oxygen.

      They're called phytoplankton. Silicic acid, along with Nitrate and Phosphate, are inorganic nutrients which phytoplankton turn into organic nutrients, and so essentially form the base oceanic of the food chain.

    88. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not implying that this is energetically better, but there are different routes to silicon nanoparticles,than vaporizing elemental silicon e.g. CVD of SiH4.

    89. Re:The key question becomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's impossible for a human to live in those environments and not go insane...dontyaknow.

    90. Re:The key question becomes by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      It's not SUPPOSED to run only an Ipad. It's supposed to run communications equipment, air conditioners etc. But the smallest generator they have is the 3 kW unit, the problem being that gasoline or diesel generators become extremely inefficient at low power outputs. Your 13 W solar panel helps for an Ipad, but the real meat is somewhere in the 300 - 500W range. Which is where the fuel cells shine, no mechanical parts to break, no noise, and independent from sunshine. And a lot more compact than the 5 m^2 solar panel you'd need to provide that much power.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    91. Re:The key question becomes by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Yes. They are turned into silicic acid. Which, of course, can then be converted back into silicon nano-paritcles, with the input of energy.

      So the question becomes "how efficient is the recharging?". Which probably can't be done at home, so don't think of it as a rechargable battery, but rather as a recycleable one. Sort of like the vanadium flow battery, or that other one based around boron (or was it barium?). But silicon is a lot more available. So if the process is reasonably efficient...

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    92. Re:The key question becomes by rgbatduke · · Score: 2

      Because Obama hasn't given me a call yet to make me the offer, I suppose. I'm not sure I accept it if he did -- it has to be a thankless job these days and I'm enough of a climate skeptic to think that energy resources need to have net positive present cost-benefit before implementing them on a broad scale. Until then research and even prototyping is lovely and worthwhile, but no large scale implementation at a loss until it results in something at least cost-competitive with existing fully developed resources.

      rgb

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    93. Re:The key question becomes by rgbatduke · · Score: 1

      OK, seriously, let's try doing some arithmetic. The energy cost per kilogram of lifting something into low Earth orbit is half of it's escape energy. Escape speed is roughly 11,000 meters per second, so that energy is 1/4 x 121 x 10^6, call it 30 MJ/kg. Multiply that by something like 1000 (maybe more) due to rocket inefficiencies where you have to lift the fuel to lift the fuel to lift the fuel that lifts the payload. But it doesn't matter -- lift it at 100% efficiency and you're already dead. So lifting sand into orbit to melt it is enormously stupid. One might as well melt it in solar furnaces here on Earth, except that this is silly, joule for joule you'd be far better off collecting a megajoule of solar energy and converting it into a hundred kilojoules of electrical power. Even cheap low efficiency solar can manage that, and the return is at least twice that of silicon nanoparticle energy. Indeed, you'd be far better off taking the silicon you purified and turning it into solar cells -- those are already close to break even with at least some sources of energy in some locations, and a kilogram of silicon used that way can generate at least tens of watts (probably order of 100) for at least 20,000 seconds of an 86,400 second day. That's order of two megajoules a day, for a projected lifetime of 20 years. And note well, that is still not an economic win without exception in all locations when its amortized cost is compared to the value of commercial coal or nuclear or natural gas generated power, and it is only available when the sun shines, because kilowatt-hours of commercial electric cost anywhere from 6 to 16 cents in most locations, and at 6 cents it takes effectively forever to recover the cost of $1/watt solar cells. At 16 cents it breaks even to wins a bit with a seven to ten year amortization, and hence is a not unattractive investment. At 10 cents it is marginal (call it 5 watt-hours a day, 200 days to get a kw-hour and thereby earn 10 cents, 2000 days to break even on the solar cell itself, 4000 days to break even on installation, inversion, and the cost of the money. That's eleven years before you start to turn a profit, more if you install a battery to store the energy instead of resell surplus back to the grid. 16 cents drops it to under seven years, which starts to look attractive.

      Saddest of all, in seven to ten years, solar cells will very likely go down to 50 cents a watt or even less, at which point they'll become attractive at 10 cents a kW-hour, a no-brainer where electricity is more expensive, and still it won't be a suitable solution for powering civilization, not without a serious storage and transportation technology to back it up. Otherwise it is at best a load leveller for conventional plants.

      As I said, I can't really see any good reason to invest in silicon nanoparticle generated hydrogen gas powering fuel cells to make electricity except -- perhaps -- for exotic "one off" problems like a military application or a space application with nonlinear constraints or benefits. And even for the military, if they think this is a winning solution I think they're out of their minds. Somewhere in there common sense has to come into play.

      rgb

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    94. Re:The key question becomes by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Off your meds today?

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
  3. Gimme a match, quick! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 4, Funny

    Silicon Nanoparticles Could Lead To On-Demand Hydrogen Generation

    That's some serious R&D by the whoopie cushion industry.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  4. Why "silicon nanoparticles"? Just add water ... by Ihlosi · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... to sodium. Instant, on-demand hydrogen!

    1. Re:Why "silicon nanoparticles"? Just add water ... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      Silicon is orders of magnitude more abundant than sodium. Half the mass of earth is silicon dioxide. But sodium is abundant enough too, about 1% of the mass of the sea water is NaCl. Electolysing sodium from saline solutions might be easier. And we might not even need sodium to be a nano particle to react with water. Dont know why anyone would mod this funny, though.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    2. Re:Why "silicon nanoparticles"? Just add water ... by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

      Versions using magnium-iron alloys are readily available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flameless_ration_heater

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    3. Re:Why "silicon nanoparticles"? Just add water ... by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Depends on the reaction speed. Sodium reacts quick enough to (sometimes) generate enough heat to light the hydrogen immediately. The silicon version, if it has a slower reaction rate, will produce less heat, so the chances of premature ignition are significantly reduced.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    4. Re:Why "silicon nanoparticles"? Just add water ... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      Well, if you drop a hunk of sodium in a pool of water exposed to air, yes, the H2 explodes. Actually H2 can be ignited by just light, heat not required. But in a fuel tank application, we would not have oxygen there for H2 to react immediately. The H2 generation vessel will have a coating that resists reaction with H2, and the H2 will be transported to a fuel cell or something where it will be exposed to oxygen under controlled circumstances. And we won't be dropping large hunks of sodium into the tank either. To control the heat.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  5. 10nm particles... by BLKMGK · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's the health impact of these getting into the ecosystem? Pass right thru a human? Cause serious disease? What happens when it hits the water IN a human? If this becomes in any way widespread these are going to be issues.

    What's left after the reaction? Must the water be pure or can we produce power from dirty water and do what with what's left? Could this be used to clean dirty water by simply using the water for power? Is oxygen also produced from this - I'd think so right since water is H2O. Are the particles completely consumed in the reaction? No reuse? How much water is used in the manufacturing process to create these particles? What are the waste byproducts for the process of creating these particles?

    --
    Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    1. Re:10nm particles... by TheSkepticalOptimist · · Score: 0

      Now if only there was some kind of profession that would have people investigate and research all these questions.

      --
      I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
    2. Re:10nm particles... by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      What's the health impact of these getting into the ecosystem? Pass right thru a human? Cause serious disease? What happens when it hits the water IN a human? If this becomes in any way widespread these are going to be issues.

      Says the guy who likely starts up an internal combustion engine with a lead acid battery and dumps the toxic exhaust directly into the ecosystem.

    3. Re:10nm particles... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What happens when it hits the water IN a human?

      Live comfortably for up to* 30 years, then cough and fall over dead.

      *past outliers are not a promise of future survival rates

    4. Re:10nm particles... by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

      Um, I think that's us. You know, the crowd. With wisdom and all that.

      --
      Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    5. Re:10nm particles... by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      What's the health impact of these getting into the ecosystem? Pass right thru a human? Cause serious disease? What happens when it hits the water IN a human? If this becomes in any way widespread these are going to be issues.

      What's left after the reaction? Must the water be pure or can we produce power from dirty water and do what with what's left? Could this be used to clean dirty water by simply using the water for power? Is oxygen also produced from this - I'd think so right since water is H2O. Are the particles completely consumed in the reaction? No reuse? How much water is used in the manufacturing process to create these particles? What are the waste byproducts for the process of creating these particles?

      Virtually every question is answered in the summary! We have a new low, people!

      Health impact: nano particles are up in the air (small particles tend to be more dangerous for biologicals than large particles of whatever they are made of), hydrogen is turned into water, silicic acid is non-toxic. Purity of water isn't mentioned, nor what happens if it is exposed to other stuff, but you can assume it will react with something if you ingest it.

      Reaction components: Si + H2O -> Silicic acid + H2. It can't be releasing (much) oxygen, or the fuel cell would look like a nice little camp fire in short order. This is also why it's not equivalent to using sodium or lithium. Feel free to use google and see the chemical composition of silicic acid. Again, silicic acid is claimed to be non-toxic, so that's not a big deal. How it reacts with other stuff isn't mentioned, but you can assume it will react with a number of things if it will react with water, so they will probably assume you use relatively pure water. Blood probably won't work to well (or cleanly), something from a ditch probably will. Since one of the byproducts is silicic acid, it's safe to assume the particles will be consumed in the reaction.

      As for water being used in production, we're talking about silicon, here. We already process this stuff for making computer chips, so you can check out how much water is used for everything but the last step by examining that process.

      There's the answer to over half your questions, based on reading the summary and high school chemistry. I imagine even more would be covered in the article. Google can probably answer half of what's left over after that.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    6. Re:10nm particles... by kevkingofthesea · · Score: 1

      The oxygen (and probably one of the two hydrogens, as well) is captured as part of the above-mentioned silicic acid. It is probably recoverable to some degree, although it may be impractical - hard to say without more detail.

      Impure water would probably work, but you may produce some undesirable by-products (perhaps even through reactions with the silicic acid produced by the primary reaction).

      Of course this is all educated speculation on my part, but those are good questions to be asking.

    7. Re:10nm particles... by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      In a production system, the particles will probably be stuck onto a screen or surface to prevent them from being washed away along with the waste. A system that requires constant addition of the catalysts or a batch reaction that works for a few minutes then requires reconfiguration of the system is just not going to fly.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    8. Re:10nm particles... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TFA answers all your questions. What's the health impact of these getting into the ecosystem? None. Pass right thru a human? The byproducts are hydrogen (flammable but otherwise harmless) and another that's used as health suppliment. Cause serious disease? Nope. What happens when it hits the water IN a human? Redundant question. What's left after the reaction? Hydrogen and something else, forgot what but it's supposed to be good for you. Must the water be pure? TFA doesn't say but my guess is "no".

      Could this be used to clean dirty water by simply using the water for power? The exhaust of burning hydrogen is water as pure as the oxygen you burn.

      Is oxygen also produced from this - I'd think so right since water is H2O. No, the oxygen combines with the silicon to become something else. Put electricity into water and you get hydrogen and oxygen, though.

      Are the particles completely consumed in the reaction? Yes. No reuse? Nope. How much water is used in the manufacturing process to create these particles? None. What are the waste byproducts for the process of creating these particles? Another redundant question. Do you work for the department of redundancy department?

    9. Re:10nm particles... by BLKMGK · · Score: 1

      No actually I do not see answers to my questions so clearly as you and apparently others do.

      No health impacts from this? So then you'd be willing to swallow it? Get it in your hair? Eyes? Lungs? Food? How about a gel capsule down the hatch? Did you see anything in either linked article that mentions this? I didn't. I see what is supposed to be a harmless acid and hydrogen mentioned as byproducts, nothing more. Hey is Graphene okay to swallow? Buckyballs? You might be surprised. You might not want to swallow any of this and you may also find that if it's produced in quantity that it will find it's way into our food chain or used as a weapon. I'm not against it, just not quite so quick to become excited. That you so quickly dismiss this line of thinking, along with others, is amusing.

      Product of the reaction is an acid and hydrogen. With tap water? Sewer water? Distilled water? Are we going to be taking the equivalent of drinking water to use this? If it's potable water then it's a bit more valuable than something I'd drain a ditch to get. If on the other hand I can use ditch water and the result is this acid, hydrogen, and the waste from the water then we might kill two birds with one stone - hence my question concerning it and my concerns ref potable water. I didn't mention exhaust, I know what the byproduct of burned hydrogen was and thought that was obvious.

      No water used to produce this? Another post mentions that it's much the same as a chip manufacturing process (is it?) - lots of water and other chemicals used in that. Some of those chemicals are nasty BTW. I see nothing in the article regarding usage of water for production either for or against so I'm interested in why you dismissed this so quickly. Can you cite anything regarding producing this? Do note that it says "significant energy and resources" in the article...

      The article states that hydrogen and acid are created, it mentions nothing about the medium being completely consumed or chances of recovery recovery. Citation please.

      Waste byproducts of creating these - also not answered and yet you find the question redundant? The process for creating these is simply stated as " significant energy and resources to produce" and nothing more is said. Where exactly did you find the answer concerning this? I'm betting they aren't simply grinding down beach sand and since the spherical shape appears to be important to the process that would seem to imply some sort of process such as vaporization. That you leap to the conclusion that this process produces NO waste is amazing. Again, cite your sources for the conclusion since you so readily dismiss the question. Hint: it ain't in the linked articles or in the minuscule announcement made in the further linked article.

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    10. Re:10nm particles... by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      From the way it sounds, I don't think it's ICE-9.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
  6. Still no free lunch by jamesl · · Score: 2

    From TFA ...
    Though it takes significant energy and resources to produce the super-small silicon balls, the particles could help power portable devices in situations where water is available and portability is more important than low cost. Military operations and camping trips are two examples of such scenarios.

    1. Re:Still no free lunch by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this could help power a probe to drill through the ice on Enceladus...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  7. Sicilian Bonaparticles? by jkg2 · · Score: 1

    what?

  8. There's No Mention of the Catalyst? by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    The overall reaction produces hydrogen and silicic acid by-products; this looks promising. What Catalyst(s) would be required to convert the Other byproducts back to a useful configuration, and convert the silicic acid back to the spherical silicon nanoparticles when the water runs out?

    1. Re:There's No Mention of the Catalyst? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It's completely stupid anyway.

      Consider when you burn 2H2 + O2 you get 2H2O + heat. That means you need energy to go from H2O to H2 + O. Heat, current, something.

      Catalytic water reaction: Will eventually freeze itself. It may reach absolute zero; probably not nearly. Will require heat input.

      Non-catalytic water reaction: will take as much energy to produce the fuel as is required to break down the water, at least. Really, more energy in (and lost) than energy out. Catalytic recycling of the reactionary products of the fuel would absorb heat, see above.

    2. Re:There's No Mention of the Catalyst? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      I think it's meant as an energy storage medium though. Rather than a complex pressurized hydrogen gas system in a car, for example, you would have one tank for silicon nanoparticles and one for water (I don't know if you need a third tank to store the precipitate or if you can just dump that into the water tank). You produce hydrogen as needed and then, when you are out of water or silicon nanoparticles, you go to a filling station, flush out the precipitate and fill up with more water and nanoparticles. Then the precipitate either gets recycled as more nanoparticles or just gets used in concrete or something, depending on which is more energy and resource efficient.

      Requiring energy to make the fuel isn't necessarily a problem as long as it's a reasonable amount of energy and as long as you don't have to use some ridiculous amount of nanoparticles relative to water. That may turn out to not be the case, but if it is, and there's a way to make the nanoparticles through an electrically powered process, we might have finally found a practical way to store electric power for portable use to replace fossil fuels. That's all very optimistic to draw from a short, light-on-detail press release of course.

      For even more wild optimism, let us say that you can take the reaction products (minus the oxygen and hydrogen of course) and reverse the process using heat or electricity and get back silicon nanoparticles suitable for re-use. Then the filling station doesn't need to dispense nanoparticles, it just has to dispense water and electricity.

      Of course, it's a long way from a small demonstration of the principle to a working system. It's funny, if this does develop into a new technology, the car running on it will still need a starting battery (also maybe to operate a heater to jump start the reaction) and the best choice for that will probably be a standard automotive starting battery whose basic technology hasn't changed in 150 years.

    3. Re:There's No Mention of the Catalyst? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Uh, standard automotive starting battery technology has evolved quite a lot in the past 150 years. There are two types of SLA batteries rather than the old type you require water for, which are more durable and last longer and produce more power per density. They suspend the acid in wildly different ways (one with a glass microstructure, one with a gel, IIRC) instead of sloshing it into open cells. To say that the basic technology is the same is to say that the basic technology of rocketry is the same as the basic technology of cars--burning fuel to move things has always been a thing, but rockets, scram jets, and combustion engines all operate on wildly different principals (for one, burning fuel like that at high altitudes and high speeds to get thrust doesn't actually work--RAM jets and SCRAM jets are made specifically to compress and ignite fuel in ways that don't work at low speeds, and rocket engines have their own design considerations).

      Water isn't a high-density fuel. Natural gas is usually stored at 500PSI in adsorption tanks, whereas with just a steel tank you can stuff the same amount of fuel in there at 4000PSI. How much PSI do you think the freed hydrogen from 1gal water would be under stuffed in a 1gal jug?

  9. Could be combined with... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...this, just announced from the University of Michigan to make silicon crystals at much lower energy than previously required.

    The crystalline silicon in modern electronics is currently made through a series of energy-intensive chemical reactions with temperatures in excess of 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit that produces a lot of carbon dioxide," said Stephen Maldonado, professor of chemistry and applied physics.

    Recently, Maldonado and chemistry graduate students Junsi Gu and Eli Fahrenkrug discovered a way to make silicon crystals directly at just 180 F

  10. Seemingly good by-product by TheSkepticalOptimist · · Score: 1

    Looked up silicic acid and, for once, doesn't seem to want to destroy the environment or cause cancer, that we know of yet.

    --
    I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
  11. Great by pr0nbot · · Score: 3, Funny

    How long have we got till peak silicon? I'm going to start stockpiling sand for the forthcoming commodities bubble.

    1. Re:Great by Specter · · Score: 3, Funny

      Just try to keep your cat out of it, alright?

  12. On the other hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd rather run out of hydrogen than water; sweet, cool water.

  13. borohydride? by stenvar · · Score: 1

    What's the advantage over Borohydride?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borohydride

  14. It's still about net energy by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 2

    How much energy does it take to make the stuff, transport it, dispose of it, and so on? It may prove to be an adequate energy carrier if it's cheap enough AND we have enough cheap electricity to make use of it, which might happen if we actually get thorium-based nuclear power AND we can solve the engineering problems involving the use of hydrogen in any metallic machines.

    Not a bad technology if it's more energy dense by volume and cheaper than current batteries though.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  15. Film at 11. by udoschuermann · · Score: 1

    What if a bunch of these were dropped into a deep part of the ocean? Would bubbles of hydrogen begin to rise to the surface, continue to rise, and eventually convert all the oceans into acid and free hydrogen?

    --
    --Udo.
    1. Re:Film at 11. by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      Is not a catalyst, it is consumed by the reaction, so no matter if the amount to convert a glass of water is dropped in the ocean, will produce the same amount of hydrogen and acid.

  16. Bad trade by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
    So instead of storing compressible lightweight hydrogen, they want to store incompressible, far heavier water?

    Oh yes, water won't burst into fire. But water is corrosive. It causes rust.

    This is basically only useful in two situations:

    1. Some moron is too scared of hydrogen fires to understand it is safer than gasoline.

    2. Situations where we can not take the standard precautions against fire.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Bad trade by higuita · · Score: 2

      you don't understand that H2 is very hard to contain, its the smallest of the gases and if it escapes, together with Oxygen produces a very explosive/inflammable mixture.

      you need very well constructed (and heavy) containers and very good transfer methods (fool proof).
      Also, hydrogen is also corrosive and suffer from migration on metals and other crystalline structures (check wikipedia for more info.)

      Compared with the propane gas, its a lot harder to work with and, specially, long term maintenance.

      Water, you just need some "bucket" or simple container and that's it, no safety problems (other of people trying to drink it maybe!).
      Rust is only a problem with some materials and have currently many easy solutions (other material, coatings, alloys). Unless you are using sea water, its not different from your water supply at home. Even it there is a leak, there is usually no big problem.

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      Higuita
    2. Re:Bad trade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Helium is smaller.

  17. H2 bad for O3 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hydrogen is not the panacea of clean energy. Unless you can burn 100% of it, your H2 material is going to rise in the atmosphere and leave the earth eventually but not before passing through the ozone layer where it is more than happy to combine with that extra O in O3 and make water, destroying the Ozone layer in the process.

    1. Re:H2 bad for O3 by mister_playboy · · Score: 1

      No, H2 gas is going to react with O2 at ground level almost immediately, it's not going to get all the way up into the ozone layer.

      Ozone itself is unstable, it only lasts a few hours at most before decomposing. We still have a ozone layer because it is being created constantly.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
  18. Efficiency by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    Exactly. The article claims poor efficiency:

    The downside is the significant amount of energy and resources required to produce the smaller silicon particles. This would make the particles expensive and likely rule them out for widespread use in powering consumer electronic devices – at least initially. However, the researchers say the technology could find applications in situations where water is available and portability is more important than cost, such as camping and military operations.

    So it's currently not much more than a parlor trick. You're not going to be filling up an electric car with silicon nanoparticles and water any time soon.

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    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:Efficiency by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Most people consider the military a tad more upscale than 'a parlor trick'.

      (For my next treat - a fully assembled nuclear weapon!!)

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Efficiency by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

      Nah, I'd still put this battery in the parlor trick category. It makes lots of hydrogen, but at an enormous cost! Tada!

      It might replace butane fuel cells because it could be made smaller (an important military consideration), but it isn't a game changing technology yet. It could be though. If some wizard somewhere figures out a more efficient creation process. But hey, any new energy technology is another time at bat, another opportunity for mankind to finally hit one out of the park and get clean, non-environment threatening, global warming free energy. I'm happy we have another opportunity to try. But so far this isn't anything to get super excited about.

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      Weaselmancer
      rediculous.
  19. ICE NINE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just sayin'.

  20. oxygen by More+Trouble · · Score: 1

    If only we had an easy way to make an oxygen free environment to store our silicon nanoparticles prior to wetting them...

  21. Old technology... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Umm, this is old tech. There are a number of different metals and materials as well that will react to water, freeing up hydrogen. The problems are more political, social , educational and moral than scientific. Although, there is much to be discovered. This is just a good example of the fact that we can discover much by looking back to old dead and forgotten tech.

  22. NaOH + Al = H by guantamanera · · Score: 1

    Grab an aluminum can and pour some sodium hydroxide and you'll end up producing hydrogen on demand. I know producing aluminum requires lots of energy but so does heating up the sand to creat silicon. video

  23. It may be thought of as a battery. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Create the particles at night with overproduction of energy or during times when solar is vastly overproducing and then use them to power things off the grid.

  24. Close but no cigar by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    How much energy to create the silicon nanoparticles.

    No; it's how long can they run before being degraded by contamination? If it takes six-sigma water purity to prevent crap from interfering with the reaction, then it's more novelty than breakthrough.

    1. Re:Close but no cigar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No; it's how long can they run before being degraded by contamination?

      The silicon nanoparticles are not a catalyst; they are consumed in the reaction (hence the silicic acid byproduct). They don't so much "run" as "get used up", so contamination isn't a major factor here.

  25. I think you're phrasing that backwards by Namarrgon · · Score: 1

    Don't expect to be able to just top up your car with water and drive a few thousand miles on a single silicon cartridge. Water stores too little energy to ever be useful as a fuel, nor can it be "converted" in any conventional sense. The best we can do is pump in a lot of energy and create a fuel from it, as with electrolysis, but the energy has to come from elsewhere.

    In this case, all the energy comes from the silicon nanoparticles, and the water just releases that energy as unbound hydrogen. Since nothing indicates that the silicon nanoparticles are unusually energy-dense, you'll be replacing them at least as often as as your water.

    --
    Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
  26. Where's Dick Feynmann when you need him? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you believe this, then you probably also think neutrinos are faster than light.

    If Click and Clack married Ace Ventura, they would say

    " BUH - HO - HUH - HO - HUH - GUSS ! ! ! "

    A high school chemistry student can see that it's a perpetual motion machine.

    A computer programmer ... not so much.

  27. then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then we stuff potassium into the water and get more hydrogen and potassium hydroxide (KOA). Then we combine the HA (salycylic acid) with the KOA to get more water and A-. Then my battery leaks and the FAA shuts me down.

  28. Big Oil and Big War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It makes sense if you know that whoever has control over that part of the U.S. government makes money from killing people and destroying their property.