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Peugeot Citroen To Introduce Compressed Air Hybrid By 2016
cylonlover writes "With a few exceptions, such as Volvo's Air Motion Concept, major automotive manufacturers have generally shied away from compressed air technology. PSA Peugeot Citroen is bucking this trend with its 'Hybrid Air' powertrain that addresses the limited range of compressed air energy storage technology by combining it with a gasoline powered internal combustion engine. The company plans to have Hybrid Air powered vehicles on the road by 2016."
They'll sound like a chorus of bean-eating senior citizens.
Than a tank full of compressed air to feed your burning fuel !!
Suddenly ahead of me
Across the mountainside
A gleaming alloy air car
Shoots towards me, two lanes wide
So much different than our current ones....
Wait - what?
Not many details about it.
I guess you can re-use cylinders from the ICE for compression and expansion, which would save on weight.
Though the main problem with compressed air is that it cools and lowers pressure after it's been compressed, which is a big source of inefficiency. Large amounts of the energy are lost as heat. No mention on how they tackle that. For a lot of hybrid use, I suppose that insulating the tank would work quite well, but they imply that it can run off air for a large amount of the time, suggesting that the air will stay in the tank for a while and therefore cool down substantially.
Still though, batery charging isn't exactly 100% efficient and the simplicity could outweght the reduced efficiency.
Also, free A/C in summer.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
And with my 20 mile commute, two destination malls with chargers, and its ~35 mile electric range I average 200 mpg-e. This puts me near the middle of the distribution for Volt owner mpg.
This makes it "just" worth the hassle of hooking up the power at each end.
Sorry Citrah-o-en, it's just not good enough yet.
Cheaper and simpler than exotic batteries, saves a ton of gas, and you don't need rare earths. http://gas2.org/2008/10/28/ups-is-first-in-delivery-industry-to-test-hydraulic-hybrids/
The French couldn't even fix a car let alone build one!
Remember the French made "Le Car"?
Years ago in upstate N.Y. I saw a beater of a red 'Le Car' parked at a roadside. The owner must've had a good sense of humor about owning it. He had the side door lettering changed from "Le Car" to "Le Crap"!
Hopefully, this baby will come with its own hand pumps, to put your passengers to work.
No one has heard of who?
These are major car brands in the EU.
What this air engine does is remove the electric engine component from hybrid vehicles. This eliminates the need for a large battery, which cuts down on cost, weight, and negative environmental impact. Plus, you will not get stranded looking for a charger on some back country road. While pure compressed air cars have been tried before, this is the first application of a gas-compressed air hybrid. The system will be able to be installed on any normal Peugeot car without altering its external shape, size or trunk space if the spare is removed. From the exterior the air powered Peugeot will look identical to a conventional Peugeot. Peugeot will be introducing the air powered engine in smaller models such as the model 208 to start.
http://gas2.org/2013/01/25/the-peugeot-air-powered-hybrid-car-could-hit-streets-by-2016/
Here is some some quick responses.
1- No, running around in car with gas full of high pressure tank is the not the end of the world, people (including yours truly) do it with CNG enabled cars.
2- As for compression/decompression energy losses, same as for CNG, you need to cool it it blah blah, and is done so on a commercial scale at every CNG station; therefore can be done.
3- CNG suffers from power problems on steep climbs, same seems to be the case for air. But for regular commute, it's perfect and economical.
4- Air car suffer from low power density (much lower than CNG), but AFAIK, a full tank can last you the usual daily commute, which ought to be enough for a small city car. (which is what it will be able to power anyway, can't carry the load of bigger cars as of yet) And you could charge at work too(regular mains-running onboard compressor apparently take 3-4 hrs), so there is that.
5- MDI realised that air alone won't be enough, so they have been developing hybrid versions themselves.
TL;DR Air could prove to be good for the usual regular commute, since fuel costs will be minimum (air is free, all it will cost is running the compression and pump, which, looking at local CNG setups, will prove to much less than petrol equivalent, if commercially done)
Here is some aircar nerd sites:
- http://www.aircars.tk/
- http://www.cyber-media.com/aircar/index.shtml
(I would take their figures with a grain of salt, but well, the video shows running prototypes, so at least there is *something*)
I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
So they've already got the fact that they got like 12 miles then have to refill
That's why it's a hybrid.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
...for tire inflation, otherwise they'll go out of business, and the queues to "just infllate the tires" will kill us all :)
Pressurized hydraulic fluid can be dangerous (especially oil-injection via pinhole leaks that can result in amputation or death depending on the target area), but in the unfortunate instance of a pressurized vessel failing, as the fluid is essentially uncompressible, the motive force quickly stops.
Compressed gas, on the other hand... far scarier results with a ruptured vessel as the rapidly expanding gas is more than happy to forcefully hurl projectiles out of its way.
Found this picture of an early prototype on the web manufactured way back in 1985 ;^)
http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_49434-Citroen-DS-21-1972.html
I takes a "real genius" to come up with revolutionary technology like this...
Whatever... Volvo for life!! :D
There are a couple of guys down the street, one with a Datsun truck, and the other with a Subaru Brat, both have stickers on the back of those tiny things that reads:
"actual size" ...quite cute.
You know those funny little Citroen (dear /. janitors, please fix your bloody character encodings) 2CVs? With the little two-cylinder engines?
Yes, the little two-cylinder engine that produced around 60bhp/litre in its final form in the late 1970s. The little two-cylinder engine with alloy heads, pistons and crank-case (the prototypes were magnesium but that was too expensive) and drop-forged crank, borrowing heavily from fighter aircraft engines of the day. And then that engine, fitted into a body designed to protect the occupants in an accident - it was the first car designed so that the engine would break off its mountings and slide under the floor in a front impact, rather than back through the bulkhead and into the front seat occupant's legs.
Back in the 70s they could do well over 60mpg at safe motorway speeds. The French *can* make cars, and they make them better than Americans.
Here's a hint, America - no-one wants to buy your heavy, slow, ugly gutless V8s. They suck.
In my car it's called Turbo, and the compressed gas from the Turbo is mixed violently with diesel moments before being compressed into a conflagration.
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
You know, 1HP/cu in really isn't all that impressive.
The French *can* make cars, and they make them better than Americans.
Here's a hint, America - no-one wants to buy your heavy, slow, ugly gutless V8s. They suck.
Except Americans that is. And Americans don't want your shitty Frogmobiles either :-)
I think your opinion of American cars isn't much more factual than the previous poster's opinion of French ones. Take a look at the new Ford Fusion or Dodge Dart for example.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Yes, a hybrid of an internal combustion engine, and a hydraulic pump/motor unit recovers energy generated by the ICE and from braking and deceleration.
PSA says for city driving, its Hybrid Air system provides fuel savings of 45 percent and increases a vehicle’s range by 90 percent compared to conventional engines with the same power rating. In standard body styles the company says the system achieves certified fuel consumption (combined cycle) figures of 2.9 l/100 km (81 mpg) and CO2 emissions of around 69 g/km.
(The current voluntary target for CO2 in EC legislation limits average CO2 emissions from the European fleet of cars to 120 g CO2/km.
Oddly, Peugeot chooses to mention this voluntary target rather than indicate the degree to which the obligatory standards would be met.)
Mileage would be pretty impressive if they could actually achieve it in typical Euro city driving conditions. And it has the advantage of not requiring a heavy battery pack which can cost around 7 grand.
Unstated is what percentage of the time the engine must run to accommodate the typical trip, and keep the air tank topped up.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Everyone always ignores the fact that MPG ratings on European cars for the European market are rated in MPIG - Miles Per Imperial Gallon.
1 imperial gallon = 1.2 US gallons
In reality, the 60 MPG-rated eurocar only gets 50 mpg.
What happens to the heat generated by compressing the air in the first place? Is that energy loss considered in the "mileage" calculation for this car?
The compressed air designation is very misleading. This is a hydraulic hybrid, using a hydraulic pump/motor the same way a normal hybrid uses a battery - for acceleration and storing braking energy.
Hydraulic hybrid vehicle (HHV) technology has been slowly maturing and is very promising. It is already in use for some advanced heavy trucks. Garbage trucks in particular, with their stop and go usage profile benefit from their efficiencies.
UPS is trying some out. Manufacturers like Navistar and Eaton are on board
In the U.S the EPA has been at the forefront of the research. See their page about it: Hydraulic Hybrid Research
In 2011 the EPA announced a partnership with Chrysler to produce an HHV minivan that would give you a 60% improvement in city driving fuel economy.
Hybrid Batteries are expensive and can't handle the braking energy a truck generates. Hydraulic technology is cheap, well understood, and gives you more bang for your buck.
Lightning Hybrids is a small company in Colorado that makes hydraulic hybrid systems. They started out by wanting to make passenger cars, but soon realized they needed to focus on vehicles that do a lot of stopping and going, like buses and delivery trucks. That seems to be working for them. At least that is how I see and remember it. Passenger cars are not ideal. Vehicles that stop and go a lot are a better target.
You know, 1HP/cu in really isn't all that impressive.
Wasn't it about 40 years ago?
Nothing better than some examples, like the DS5 Diesel electric hybrid with interesting styling.
The "sahara" version of the 2CV had 2 engines (front and back) and 4WD. It was so light it would easily pass through loose sand where other jeeps got stuck. The "DS" looked like a modern aerodynamical car in 19-frickin-55. Hydro-pneumatic suspension, power steering, swivelling headlights. They sold 12000 the first day. British Top Gear compared the suspension of the C6 to a BMW 7 series by driving around on a horse track with a video camera strapped to the roof. With the Citroen, you could actually see the horses.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
Oh come on, doesn't everybody know that Columbo's car was a Peugeot?
You should replace "European" in your text by "UK". But UK is an exception about this.
All others European countries use SI units: litre and meter. Usually the car consumption is rated in L/100km.
You know those funny little Citroen (dear /. janitors, please fix your bloody character encodings) 2CVs? With the little two-cylinder engines?
Yes, the little two-cylinder engine that produced around 60bhp/litre in its final form in the late 1970s. The little two-cylinder engine with alloy heads, pistons and crank-case (the prototypes were magnesium but that was too expensive) and drop-forged crank, borrowing heavily from fighter aircraft engines of the day. And then that engine, fitted into a body designed to protect the occupants in an accident - it was the first car designed so that the engine would break off its mountings and slide under the floor in a front impact, rather than back through the bulkhead and into the front seat occupant's legs.
Back in the 70s they could do well over 60mpg at safe motorway speeds.
Citroen has made some pretty nice cars over they years. I didn't know that the 2CV was still being made in the 1970's. The DS was ahead of it's time. I know a lot of people in the US made fun of them, but I always liked them. The CX was an interesting little care too. The SM was probably my favorite car made by Citroen. It too was ahead of its time.
The French *can* make cars, and they make them better than Americans.
Here's a hint, America - no-one wants to buy your heavy, slow, ugly gutless V8s. They suck.
My all aluminum LS1 and 4.0 Aurora engines say otherwise.
I tried one of those new dodge darts. I'm a 6' 200lb man. fairly standard sized. I could not get in and out of that car without hitting my head on the roof. sitting in the seat, with the seat fully down, i was staring at the sunvisor. Its a piece of crap, designed by midgets.
Best cars I ever owned were an ID-19 from 1969 that regularly gave me 28 MPG, and I was not easy on the pedal; and my 1972 D-Special. Had 200,000 miles on each before I sold them, and I wish I could buy a CIt in the US today - would love a C6.
The stupid thing is that nobody in the UK buys fuel by the gallon. It is always sold by the liter.
Also, the signs on the motorway that say "2/3 mile" are placed exactly 1km from the exit, they are just labelled wrong.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Has Slashdot forgotten it has reported on Chrystler two years and a day ago? http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/01/25/0019220/how-chryslers-battery-less-hybrid-minivan-works The Chrysler minivan compressed air hybrid is supposed to be arriving this year in the US: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1053892_sergio-marchionne-hybrid-minivan-will-join-chrysler-300-hybrid-in-2013 And UPS has been running this for a while now (they started testing the vehicles 5 years ago!); it makes a lot of sense for heavy trucks. http://gas2.org/2008/10/28/ups-is-first-in-delivery-industry-to-test-hydraulic-hybrids/
So they've already got the fact that they got like 12 miles then have to refill, they're loud, they aren't durable, they're dangerous, and nobody has heard of them AND now nobody can pronounce their name. Sounds like great marketing to me.
As someone else said, they are well known in Europe. But I bet you have seen plenty of an older Citroen model in different movies. I smile each time I see them. I'm from Denmark and one of my parents neighbor, build one from scratch. Created his own frame and got bits and pieces from all over Europe.
the dodge dart is really a fiat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Dart_(2013)
or is at least based on a fiat.
when religion is no longer the opiate of the masses, governments will resort to real opiates.
Also, the signs on the motorway that say "2/3 mile" are placed exactly 1km from the exit, they are just labelled wrong.
This is certainly a clever decision in case the UK roads will switch to the km notation in a possible future.
http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/trim/gtpremium/
305 cubic inches and 420hp, not much improvement.
I'm waiting for ultracap overlords. Even hybrid ones.
All-electric car, enough UC capacity to run you around for, say, 15 minutes, and an IC engine that can charge the thing on board. No wasted idling energy (unless you spend it on AC or heat, etc., in which case it isn't wasted), all the great benefits of 4wd, regen, huge torque at any speed...
Of course, if you had a higher efficiency source of power (like nuclear... of course I'm dreaming now), that'd be super, but for now, gas/diesel is it.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Owned a 2cv, and loved it, (in its designed-for environment, rural France).
But in a crash, (with roadside tree, for example), you really would be better off in almost anything...
Agree. I loved my various Citroens, (2cv, SM, CX, XM), except for one thing.
Apart from the 2cv, they broke down all the time.
Extra points for the SM and the XM for being virtually impossible to fix yourself, (and I'm a decent mechanic).
In the end I gave up, and like most people with money and sense in France, my wife and I drive BMW and Mercedes...
The Ford Fusion? The one designed by Ford Europe? The Ford car range in the US is increasingly built on European designed cars; the Fiesta, Focus, Fusion and C-Max.
It sounds to me like a bureaucratic fight between the guys who cement in the posts and the guys who paint the signs.
Well, as another poster has pointed out the Dodge Dart is really just a Fiat with different badges - and that in turn is really just an Alfa-Romeo with a smaller engine.
There is a Ford Fusion sold over here that is basically just a Fiesta with a slightly higher roof. The new Fusion looks like a tarted-up Focus, and again comes with a range of shit engines. It's ugly, and (unless they alter it for the UK/EU market) it doesn't come with a diesel so it's going to be slow and gutless.
They are both utterly pointless cars. They look like they ought to be fast and powerful, but they're not.
It's amazing how much crashworthyness has changed. My Uncle hit a large hardwood tree (Australian Grey Gum) at around 120km/hr in a recent Citroen when he had a heart attack while driving. He had sore ribs (partly from seatbelt and partly from CPR) and a detached retina as his injuries.
This is an energy recovery system and not a fuel source. It's comparable to using the energy recovered from braking to drive a flywheel and using that flywheel later to kick off from a dead stop and burn less fuel. If that doesn't make enough sense I'm sure you can google an explanation of that somewhere since it's been used a bit more than a similar outcome from compressed air (which takes up less space than a large flywheel).
I'd have to give this serious consideration when it comes to replacing the VW time.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
that translates to "lemon" taking a flyer? can we count on it to be under powered, like the rest of the product line?
it's a hydraulic hybrid. hydraulic fluid over nitrogen in accumulators. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/01/psabosch-20130122.html Parker Hannifin has these already on the road in refuse trucks where they achieve a 45% improvement in fuel consumption the sources should be ashamed
VW has a history of making bold claims about fuel economy and failing to meet them. An acquaintance of mine drives a Seat Ibiza Ecomotive, a 1.2L 3-cylinder turbodiesel super-economobile, basically the same as a VW Polo Bluemotion. Its fuel consumption is 69 US MPG on paper, but it's rare that he even gets above 50 US MPG, driving normally.
Meanwhile, I drive a 12-year-old Peugeot 406 with a 2.2L gasoline engine and no particular fuel-saving initiatives. Fuel consumption on paper is 26.5 US MPG, I average 26.3 US MPG with a mix of both normal and 'spirited' driving. My parents drive a 12-year-old CitroÃn C5 with a 2.0L engine, their consumption figures pretty much match mine (it's a heavier car).
So there you have it, anectdotal evidence show us that Peugeot CitroÃn are much more truthful in their mileage estimates than VW is.
Eat the rich.
Interesting. I'll mentally file that for car-replacement time. In the next 2 to 10 years, depending on various things like if the wife wants to change.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
You are seriously suggesting hydrogen peroxide as a way to reduce air pollution? It looks like you are making it very easy to find a "smarter person" to share a room with you.
You may want to look up a MSDS, and you may also want to look at earlier engines that used hydrogen peroxide if you want a bit of a clue that it's a bit harder than you appear to assume to run anything smaller than a submarine on the stuff unless it's something disposable (rocket etc).