Apple To Discontinue Mac Pro In EU Over Safety Regulations

jones_supa writes "Apple has been forced to remove the Mac Pro from sale in the European Union after an amendment to a safety regulation left the machines non-compliant. The updated electronics safety standard IEC 60950-1 increases requirements around electrical port protection (PDF) and the fan guards in the system. Apple does not plan to modify their machines and will simply pull them from market in the EU. Apple wishes to warn customers and partners about the change so that they would have sufficient time to order Mac Pro units and meet any needs prior to 1 March, when the amendment comes into effect."

Comments

"fan guards in the system"

[Mateo_LeFou]

Macs have fans?

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[Sponge Bath]

Macs have fans?

Cooling fans and fanboys.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[Carewolf]

Macs have fans?

Yes, and they are hard to miss since they whine loudly if put to work. I am ofcourse refering to the the cooling fans, not the fanboys.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[macs4all]

Macs have fans?

Mac Pros do. About 9 of them scattered around in various places, all thermal-controlled.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[blind biker]

"Fan guards" - thoroughly indoctrinated followers of the cult of Jobs, willing to sacrifice their lives for what they believe in.

It takes many a queuing at the Temples of Jobs (also known as Apple® Stores) before one reaches such lofty spiritual/materialistic station.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[FreakyGeeky]

If you used a Mac Pro that did this, it was defective. Mine (early 2009 eight core) hardly makes any noise at all under load.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[macs4all]

Yes, but I DARE you to get to ONE of them without cutting power to the computer. This is utter, unmitigated bullshit on the part of the EU. By the way, note that in the Apple DIY document I linked-to, Steps 1 and 2 of the instructions are "1. Shut Down Computer" "2. Wait 10 minutes". So please tell me how STUPID someone would have to be to actually encounter a SPINNING fan (or maybe they EU is worried about all those razor-sharp PLASTIC fan blades?)

Oh, and Apple HASN'T said that they WON'T be selling the NEW Mac Pro into the EU; just that it won't be ready by the time the "Directive" goes into effect in a couple of months. BIG Difference!

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[Stewie241]

He might be talking about the Macbook Pro in response to the question 'Macs have fans?'. I know for me some operations feel like an airplane ride - when the task starts I can hear it starting to take off, it spends some time in the air as it does its work, and it lands and the engines shut off when its done. Colleagues say that the CD drive makes a loud noise as well, but I don't use it all that much.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[M. Baranczak]

The Mac Pro case can be opened in a few seconds without any tools, you don't have to unscrew anything. If there are moving parts exposed inside the case, then this ruling seems perfectly sensible.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[M. Baranczak]

I was thinking more about small children. If you've ever met any, you'd realize that it only takes a few unattended seconds for them to do something they oughtn't do, like open up a Mac Pro and stick their hands in the fan.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[gman003]

Either that, or just dust buildup.

I've got an old 2006 Mac Pro, and it used to idle around 80C and, under a heavy workload, the fans would spin up to a full 2000RPM. I recently gave it a very, *very* thorough cleaning job, removing six years' of accumulated dust and reapplying thermal paste. Now it idles at 60C and even with Prime95 running full-blast I could not get the fans to go above 900RPM, and temperatures peaked at 82C.

The Mac Pros, or at least the 1,1 model, is not designed in a way that makes it easy to open up and dust it out. Seriously, it was a bloody nightmare trying to strip it down and put it back together, so I doubt many people would do this. Hell, I had been considering upgrading the processors, but now I think I won't, just because installing it will be such a PITA.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[Curunir_wolf]

Yes, won't someone please think of the children?

No cost is too high if we can just prevent one child from getting one nick on their vulnerable little finger!

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[Greyfox]

The mac pro desktop I had would routinely not spin its fans up and would subsequently cook its video card. I think I got it in 2005. The mac pro laptop I have would reach alarmingly hot temperatures. I didn't know if they were normal or not but I found them alarmingly hot. So I installed a little program to spin the fans up sooner. That's when I noticed the laptop has fans. When those things really get going, you can definitely hear them. It's just by default, the system almost never cranks them up.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[jones_supa]

I was thinking more about small children. If you've ever met any, you'd realize that it only takes a few unattended seconds for them to do something they oughtn't do, like open up a Mac Pro and stick their hands in the fan.

There's far more likely ways for a small child to hurt himself at home than opening a Mac Pro and sticking his finger on the fan!

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[isorox]

I was thinking more about small children. If you've ever met any, you'd realize that it only takes a few unattended seconds for them to do something they oughtn't do, like open up a Mac Pro and stick their hands in the fan.

Takes just a few seconds for them to unplug an iec and stick the end in their mouth too.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[DarkVader]

They're plastic fans, and run at fairly low speeds. They're also not exactly readily accessible.

And I have stuck my finger in Mac Pro and G5 fans before, to stop them and see if that was the source of the noise. Doesn't even hurt, certainly doesn't break the skin. Quicker and easier than powering down and starting up with tape on the fan.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[macs4all]

The Mac Pro case can be opened in a few seconds without any tools, you don't have to unscrew anything. If there are moving parts exposed inside the case, then this ruling seems perfectly sensible.

It can also be easily LOCKED to prevent theft AND OPENING. So NOW who's got the responsibility?

Oh, and before you complain about nearly $40 to secure that $2500+ computer (which someone will, no doubt), you can use just about ANY small lock that will fit through the little slot below the latch (see detailed drawing of the latch, showing the lock-loop about halfway down in this document).

So, in the case of the case of the Mac Pro, who is actually "negligent" if a child/mentally-challenged-adult opens a Mac Pro and sticks their widdle fingaws in it?

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[kimvette]

Yes I realize you made a pun. hahaha Macs don't really have a cult following.

But yes, Mac Pros have cooling fans that are really loud - when idling or running every day tasks you don't ever hear them, but if you compile a large project or start a large rendering or transcoding job that tasks the CPU and GPU, yes, the fans will be LOUD - rivaling even Supermicro servers in loudness.

As far as fan guards are concerned: the fans are internal and unless you do something stupid you'll never touch them. No internal guards? Who gives a crap. Unless you have the Mac opened up while running AND are a total klutz, there is zero chance of injury. I fail to see the issue. I do like that EU regs are more consumer-minded than corporate-welfare-minded in nature, but this is ridiculous. Internal guards are minimal, intended to keep wires out of the fans rather than protect from digits. Why? Fan guards usually reduce airflow, which decreases cooling efficiency and long-term reliability.

What's next - targeting auto manufacturers because an under-hood fan might cut the hand off of a really stupid, klutzy mechanic, even though there is zero risk to a driver, because there is a chance a really stupid owner might open the hood, leave the engine running and let a toddler climb into the engine bay?

Hey regulators, do you realize that if someone opens a chassis of a power supply and licks the circuit boards, they'll get electrocuted with line voltage? What if some boneheaded moron leaves a power supply plugged in while the case is opened? How about requiring all circuit boards to be dippped in epoxy in order to be certified for the market? Sure, they will be rendered irreparable and long-term reliability will be compromised (due to increased operating temps), but think of the children here.

I'm all for practical safety regulations, but not fanatical ones based in paranoia. Personal responsibility and common sense needs to balance this out.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[Anonymous Coward]

Look. That law exists to prevent products that don't include appropiate safety measures which would reduce the profit margin to harm someone.

While in this case there might not be much harm if someone got a nick their finger, that law is still a good idea in general.
So please don't grab the first edge case to shoot down the concept. But feel free to implement the Ferengi way of life at your place, as long as you keep it far enough away from me.

As neither of us knows exactly how dangerous those fans are, what the new requirements actually are and why there was a consensus for raising them.... we can only read up on it or continue to talk about it without expert knowledge.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[sumdumass]

Not really. I've seen situations where you accidentally put a hand or palm into or on a fan because of something else you were doing near by. You simple get overly concentrated on a specific task and don't notice how close you are getting to the fan. It's not like the fans in a computer are overly dangerous or anything. You will survive an encounter to one generally with no serious harm.

You are simply making too much out of this as is the EU.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[cheater512]

Thanks for the clarification. Your statement was highly ambiguous without it.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[dyingtolive]

Second edge case: Buckyballs.

I'll let someone else provide the third.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[lgw]

All airflow inside a computer case (at least, one with a fan) is turbulent. Airflow becomes turbulent at very low speeds even in very small pipes, and certainly with a fan, or the non-smooth surface of the interior of the case, or even a smooth chimney the size of a case. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Of course, the power consumed by cooling fans is trivial in any case.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[wagnerrp]

I put a nice gouge in my thumb several years back, when I accidentally put it into an 120x38 Panaflo. Get a beefy enough fan with enough inertia and it will surely do some damage.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[FreakyGeeky]

The newer ones are apparently much easier to work on. I've never had the problems you describe.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[BasilBrush]

Hey regulators, do you realize that if someone opens a chassis of a power supply and licks the circuit boards, they'll get electrocuted with line voltage?

To be fair, anything with mains voltage (power supplies) has to have two layers of protection from faults. Either double insulated, or single insulated plus ground.

So they are only applying the same approach to heavy/fast spinning fans as they are to mains. Two layers of protection from faults not just one.

It should also be noted that the Mac Pro has user replaceable parts, so the insides are classed as operator accessible areas, not service only areas.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[BasilBrush]

It can also be easily LOCKED to prevent theft AND OPENING. So NOW who's got the responsibility?

The requirements is for 2 levels of protection from faults, not 2 levels of protection from users.

The inside of a Pac Pro is a operator area - it's expected for users to open them to replace parts. And when doing so, standards are there to guard their safety against faulty parts.

So being able to lock the case with a padlock is irrelevant.

Also, a standard has to put rules in pace to cover all products. It's not right to just judge each case on it's merits. That's the way substandard and dangerous products get through.

The fans appear to qualify based on an objective mass/max speed formula as ones that could be dangerous if they broke, and thus they need protection from flying fragments. It's not probing fingers that's the issue.

Whether or not someone judges that likely or not for a specific product is irrelevant. Safety standards have to be written generically. And products must be manufactured to meet those safety standards.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[Jeremi]

The mac pro laptop I have would reach alarmingly hot temperatures.

I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

Wait a minute, I think I may see the problem... ;)

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[Jeremi]

Which means you would need to be unretarded enough to unscrew the case, then retarded enough to purposely touch the spinning blades, presumably while the machine is plugged in and powered up.

Speaking as someone who is retarded enough to have done that, I can report that touching the spinning fan blades did not cause any injury. It did make kind of a neat noise, though.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[tlhIngan]

The Mac Pros, or at least the 1,1 model, is not designed in a way that makes it easy to open up and dust it out. Seriously, it was a bloody nightmare trying to strip it down and put it back together, so I doubt many people would do this. Hell, I had been considering upgrading the processors, but now I think I won't, just because installing it will be such a PITA.

I just dusted mine out the other day when I had two LEDs on the motherboard light up, and all 4 DIMM lights on each DIMM card light up (yet it still worked, - go figure).

The Mac Pro is one of the easier ones to dust out - obviously you've never worked on a PC where there are billions of cables running every which way getting in your way.

Maybe if you wanted to rid yourself of every single speck of dust it's a bit more involved, but a general dusting is fairly easy and most of the surfaces are smooth and won't catch the dusting cloth.

Hell, it's actually nice to put out the air duster and not have the dust fly out in your face (given the front and back are effectively one big grille, the dust flies out that way. makes a mess on the table, but means no dust in the eye)

Dusting out a Dell ... involves unplugging every SATA cable, unplugging all the power cables, and often removing other things int he way (which means unplugging more cables because well, they won't lift up because the @(#*&%@) cable isn't long enough. You'd think an OEM with full control of the case, motherboard and component layout could spec out cables to be the right length for cable management - so the SATA cable runs from the motherboard down through channels and pops out at the hard drive without excess or stretching. Power cables as well, exit te power supply, follow a nice path to the convenient connector nearby...

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[gman003]

1) You don't seem to have the same Mac Pro that I do - mine has no LEDs on the DIMM cards. So maybe they revised it in a later model, made it easier to maintain. But on the 2006 one, just removing the exhaust fan (so you can dust the other side) requires about 90 minutes of work, including removing the CPU heatsinks and the *front* fan assembly.

2) Prebuilt PCs tend to have really crappy cable management, because they care more about being able to assemble thousands of them than about airflow. On a nice custom build, with properly-routed cables and a modular PSU, dusting is pathetically easy.

3) I have a backup PC - an old 2000-era Compaq, full of big IDE ribbon cables and every other thing that can impede cleaning. I have it packed with 2 DVD drives, two 3.5" hard drives, two floppy drives, and all the PCI cards I've got. It's got nearly as much kit in it as the Mac Pro, but in about half the volume. The only worse case I've seen are those weird clamshell-opening Dell cases. And you know what? It's still easier to dust than the Mac Pro.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[mysidia]

That law exists to prevent products that don't include appropiate safety measures which would reduce the profit margin to harm someone.

But here we have a good example, of a bullshit safety measure requirement causing a product to go off the market entirely: apparently, because it will no longer be worth selling.

As neither of us knows exactly how dangerous those fans are, what the new requirements actually are and why there was a consensus for raising them....

We know that they pose absolutely no danger to the end user: except one that did some very stupid things, and specifically ignored directions, to unplug before unscrewing and opening up the computer case.

There are high voltages in the power supply and capacitors too, of most computer systems; I suppose someone could stick their fingers in there, and die from electrocution, after popping open the power supply....

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[towermac]

"It's not right to just judge each case on it's merits."

Think about what you're saying here. Take that statement to it's logical conclusion(s).

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[jones_supa]

Putting finger in a toaster that is on.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[petermgreen]

There is a general rule in safety regulations that things that require a tool or excessive force to open are treated differently from things that can be easilly opened without tools.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[petermgreen]

It can also be easily LOCKED [mac-pro.com]

I wouldn't consider having to buy a special third party lock because apple didn't think to design in a simple padlock hole to be "easilly LOCKED".

to prevent theft AND OPENING. So NOW who's got the responsibility?

The company who supplied it in a state where it could be opened without a tool.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[BasilBrush]

I know exactly what I'm saying here. And yes, the same thing applies to criminal law. A court does not work out if something is right or wrong from first principles each time. It tests what has occurred against a set of written standards - the law.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[mjwx]

Oh, and before you complain about nearly $40 to secure that $2500+ computer

When I pay $2500 for a computer I'd expect it to have the same safety features as a $500 computer, especially when they're charging $2500 for $1100 worth of components.

So, in the case of the case of the Mac Pro, who is actually "negligent" if a child/mentally-challenged-adult opens a Mac Pro and sticks their widdle fingaws in it?

The manufacturer who didn't install the fan guards or properly seal the case.

Hows Stockholm Syndrome working out for you?

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[macs4all]

It can also be easily LOCKED [mac-pro.com]

I wouldn't consider having to buy a special third party lock because apple didn't think to design in a simple padlock hole to be "easilly LOCKED".

to prevent theft AND OPENING. So NOW who's got the responsibility?

The company who supplied it in a state where it could be opened without a tool.

r You're about an ILLITERATE fuck, aren't you?

Did you NOT see the latch detail where it clearly shows that you can put any $2 padlock in the little "loop". So, they DID "think to design in a simple padlock hole".

Learn to read, fucktard.

Re:"fan guards in the system"

[tlhIngan]

1) You don't seem to have the same Mac Pro that I do - mine has no LEDs on the DIMM cards. So maybe they revised it in a later model, made it easier to maintain. But on the 2006 one, just removing the exhaust fan (so you can dust the other side) requires about 90 minutes of work, including removing the CPU heatsinks and the *front* fan assembly.

MacPro1,1, the very first model Apple made. It was the cheapeast PC at the time - the instant you wanted dual proc, prices jumped to workstation prices and Dell, etc., charged accordingly. Even build-it-yourself wasn't that much cheaper, oddly. And no, I didn't know that there were lights on the DIMM card (not the DIMMs, but the DIMM cards) until they lit up one day and bathed the area in red light.

Then again, I didn't attempt to get it completely dust free. I was happy to clean off the dust in the front grille, blow through the fans and unleash a dust storm out the grilles and wipe down the video card and the shelf below it. The rest I've learned that it'll be back in a few days, so by the time it builds up to an impenetrable crust of dust, it's probably time to upgrade anyways.

Like now, actually, because 2GB of RAM is pathetically small and Boot Camp won't work with more due to the 32-bit EFI bugs (I use Windows with it mostly).

Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Bogtha]

Apple does not plan to modify their machines and will simply pull them from market in the EU.

In all likelihood it's because they've got a new Mac Pro model ready to launch. The Mac Pro hasn't had a significant update in years, it's the only Mac that doesn't have a Thunderbolt port, for example.

A new Mac Pro is being released in 2013, confirmed by Apple.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Seb C.]

Yeah, so instead of telling their customer :" Hold on, we'll deliver a brand new one", they go for "Rush for the shops, we won't comply the EU directives and there'll be no more of those Mac Pro in store in a couple of weeks".
Yeah thank you Apple...

It's not as if they would release 2 ipad versions in one year, completely killing the brand new tablet you bought 6 month earlier...

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[PhotoJim]

If you bought your "brand new tablet" as a user device instead of an investment, you shouldn't really care if new versions come out.

I'm still happily using my first-gen iPad and aside from the sneers of derision from the 12-year-olds at airports :), I manage just fine.

The reality is that we're now a laptop world. A few want desktops, and that's why the Pro exists, and I'm sure it will be updated, but it's hardly a leading seller for Apple.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[peragrin]

Not to defend Apple. but every other manufacturer of tablets, laptops, computers, cell phones release dozens of models every year.

Apple generally limits themselves to just one new design/ upgrade annually and you pounce on them for doing two?

At least apple supports their hardware for more than 12 months. If that was a dell model not only couldn't you get service or parts, but you would have to buy another one as it would be cheaper than replacing the power supply.

It is the one thing wrong with Android devices, and Smart TV's. you never know how long they might be supported. and relying on a cutting edge community to support out of date hardware is stupid.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[macs4all]

Yeah, so instead of telling their customer :" Hold on, we'll deliver a brand new one", they go for "Rush for the shops, we won't comply the EU directives and there'll be no more of those Mac Pro in store in a couple of weeks". Yeah thank you Apple...

It's not as if they would release 2 ipad versions in one year, completely killing the brand new tablet you bought 6 month earlier...

Perhaps they know they can't get the new Mac Pro ready in a reasonable time after this bullshit "directive" goes into effect, or (MUCH more likely), the EU rules threw their development cycle into a tizzy, and now they have to REDESIGN their almost-ready-but-now-not-so-much Mac Pro. Ever think of that???

BTW, I wonder how the average EU CITIZEN thinks of all this? Fascinating that I'm not seeing the typical Slashdot posturing and whining against government overreach; just people bitching at Apple for doing the only thing they can on short notice.

And although they did break their normal "Update Cycle" with the new iPad (for like the first time EVER for ANY of their products), it certainly didn't "completely kill" anybody's iPad. My iPad 2 for example, which is now 2 generations back, still chugs along, receives OS updates, is compatible with pretty-much all (if not all) of the most recent iOS Apps, etc. It just gave people the possibility of buying a new model that much sooner. Would you prefer them to "hold back", just to keep a consistent update cycle? Would you prefer that they would have waited to add a 128 GB model, too? And then the question becomes: Wait for what? Until When?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[wisty]

Or the Mac Pro is about to go EOL, so there's no point changing it.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[mjwalshe]

yes not exactly inspiring confidence in the mac proline is it

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[macs4all]

At least apple supports their hardware for more than 12 months. If that was a dell model not only couldn't you get service or parts, but you would have to buy another one as it would be cheaper than replacing the power supply.

Not to mention the only "Announcement" they would have made would be an Asterisk on the product page on their website, that referenced a "Not available in the EU" statement twenty pages away.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Runaway1956]

"It's not as if they would release 2 ipad versions in one year, completely killing the brand new tablet you bought 6 month earlier..."

The second version could do what, exactly, that the first version could not do? That statement stinks of "status symbol". I can't imagine that one version of iPad makes another so very obsolete, that you can't use it any longer. The only reason to buy the newer one, that I can see, is being able to flash it to people at the bar, at work, on the bus or train - even in the grocery store. "Ooohhhh, look at that guy! He has the newest little shiney! I want to be like him!"

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Registered Coward v2]

Apple does not plan to modify their machines and will simply pull them from market in the EU.

In all likelihood it's because they've got a new Mac Pro model ready to launch. The Mac Pro hasn't had a significant update in years, it's the only Mac that doesn't have a Thunderbolt port, for example.

A new Mac Pro is being released in 2013, confirmed by Apple.

While a new MP may be coming - all the referenced articles said were - MP customers are important, great things are coming to the desktop in 2013, we are working on MP designs which probably will be coming in 2013. Hardly a solid statement on the MP future.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[tibit]

You're crazy. This is nothing new, the industry has been aware of those changes for some years now! Who the heck do you think writes those standards? If Apple doesn't have a company person, or better, many people, in ANSI or IEC, they're being stupid. I don't know who the heck spun this non-story as if Apple was up to the wall, or this was a new regulation, or whatever. Nobody who knows how those standards come into being is surprised at all. Many big corporations join standards bodies and have their say and are always aware of what's going on. I'm pretty damn sure Apple must have their people in standards bodies. They can certainly afford it. Note: standards are written by volunteers. A company buys sufficiently large membership, and they get to have their people doing the work. That's how it has been since beginning of time, really.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Nerdfest]

I'm surprised nobody has made any 'Dysan' style bladeless computer fans. Probably higher power, but close to silent. Based on Apple's slimy patenting of magnetic power cord attachment (which had been used in other places for many years), it's probably patentable.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[AmiMoJo]

I am an average EU citizen and think this directive is a good thing. It applies to all sorts of appliances that have fans capable of damaging internal wiring or causing injury. Guards cost pennies and every other manufacturer managed to comply in good time.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[drinkypoo]

Why would they be silent? Nothing else Dyson makes is.

We already have quiet fans with high-tech blades and fluid or maglev bearings, and we also have liquid cooling. So we already have quiet to silent cooling. There's also the option to have devices which consume so little power that they can run without active cooling.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[macs4all]

I'm surprised nobody has made any 'Dysan' style bladeless computer fans. Probably higher power, but close to silent. Based on Apple's slimy patenting of magnetic power cord attachment (which had been used in other places for many years), it's probably patentable.

Dysan fans aren't "bladeless". They conceal the impeller in the base, then "magically" distribute that airflow around a ring. Very cool looking the first time you see it; but once you know what's going on, not so much.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[interval1066]

So they use the EU as an excuse to replce product? Stupidest theory I've ever read.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[macs4all]

Quite likely, just as how while they always seem to have a shortage at launch day of a new product they vacuum the market for its parts beforehand.

Apple is marketing first and foremost, they play the media like the devil plays a fiddle...

ovo -hoot

Oh, so you'd prefer the Osbourne Effect?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[erroneus]

What evidence gives you the impression that the 2013 line (which the comments in the article you linked to point out has been a sign of betrayal by negligence) will comply with EU standards?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[macs4all]

Or the Mac Pro is about to go EOL, so there's no point changing it.

Or perhaps you're full of shit.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Karlt1]

"It's not as if they would release 2 ipad versions in one year, completely killing the brand new tablet you bought 6 month earlier..."

So your tablet stopped working the day that Apple announced a new one?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[the_B0fh]

Man, you don't 'know how often he gets laid using his brand new iPad!!

But now, his iPad is so last generation, and all the babes ignore him.

And with the new 128G iPads coming out, he can't even flash his 64GB iPad and impress them with his size any more!!!

Have some pity man.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[AmiMoJo]

So basically you are arguing that Apple should be exempt from the rules because you judge its products to be safe. Perhaps you think the EU members should pay for inspectors to check every product and decide if it is safe enough for an exemption, rather than passing a blanket rule that isn't difficult or expensive to abide by.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[the_B0fh]

Apple: New Mac Pro that will amaze you in 2013.
iHaters: Hardly a solid statement on the MP future.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Gonoff]

At least apple supports their hardware for more than 12 months....
If that was a dell model not only couldn't you get service or parts, but you would have to buy another one as it would be cheaper than replacing the power supply.

We get 3 year warranties for all our new Dells. When they get towards the end of this time, and afterwards, the PSUs often fail because of our dodgy mains. If they are inside that 3 years, dell relpaces them. No problem.

We just bought a load of replacement power supplies got our out of warranty GX760s Much cheaper than replaceing them and it takes less than 10 minutes to do it.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Gonoff]

BTW, I wonder how the average EU CITIZEN thinks of all this?

Sounds like they are doing what they are supposed to do. One of the jobs of a government is to protect the people from those richer and more powerful.
You don't get much richer and more powerful than Apple.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Gonoff]

Seriously people in the EU, WAKE UP!!! Your governments are NOT your friends!!!

Correct. On this side of the Atlantic, they are our servants.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[radish]

As someone who's spent significant time living in both, your belief that the US government is significantly better/different is quaint and amusing. Maybe the EU went overboard on fan guards (the new rule actually seems reasonable to me) but at least no one tells you how big your soda cup can be, or threatens to lock you up for carrying a bottle of wine in public, or crossing the street at the wrong place. Every country has their little restrictions and laws which often seem normal to those living there and batshit crazy to everyone else. C'est la vie :)

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Registered Coward v2]

Apple: New Mac Pro that will amaze you in 2013. iHaters: Hardly a solid statement on the MP future.

Fair enough - were did Apple definitely state that - rather than it being the conclusion from a series of non-definitive statements? Personally, I'd love to see a new MP but am not holding my breath.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[rueger]

Dyson's brilliance is in marketing, not engineering. Who would have thought you could sell small appliances by marketing them the same way as a Mercedes... I'm waiting for the $700 Dyson toaster.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Trepidity]

BTW, I wonder how the average EU CITIZEN thinks of all this? Fascinating that I'm not seeing the typical Slashdot posturing and whining against government overreach

One thing that makes me better disposed to this case is that it wasn't a regulation pulled out of thin air by random government bureaucrats, but rather one drawn up by electrical engineers, from an independent standards body not controlled by the EU, the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC). The US even has substantial representation on the body, so it's not just European engineers drawing it up. The EU just chose to implement their recommendation as mandatory, whereas in some other countries IEC recommendations may be treated as only advisory.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[macs4all]

Their updates have been incremental at best. Fuck them. Their updates used to at least seem magical. we should hook up a generator to Job's grave. He's spinning so much we could power oakland at a minimum.

What you (and others that share your "The thrill is gone" sentiments simply don't understand Product Development cycles.

You think that just because you can generate a USB controlled flyswatter with a Raspberry Pi in a weekend, that that's how long ALL Products take to develop.

Every single thing that has come out of Apple since Jobs' death was WELL ALONG in its Development when Jobs hit the dirt.

Every. Single. Thing. Same with any company. Product development takes TIME.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Anonymous Coward]

> Who would have thought you could sell small appliances by marketing them the same way as a Mercedes...

Steve Jobs would.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[rocket rancher]

I'm surprised nobody has made any 'Dysan' style bladeless computer fans. Probably higher power, but close to silent. Based on Apple's slimy patenting of magnetic power cord attachment (which had been used in other places for many years), it's probably patentable.

not really bladeless. It's only bladeless if you include "can't see the blades that are there" as part of your definition of bladeless. There is an impeller fan concealed in the base of every dyson air mover.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[DarkVader]

There's no such thing as a G5 Mac Pro.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[fyngyrz]

Nah, he's probably arguing that safe products should be exempt from sensibly constructed rules. As opposed to blanket rules that are so wide-ranging as to cause pointless changes (which, despite your assertion, tend to be expensive, screw up inventory chains, and often don't impact consumers anyway) for no actual reason. You know, as if common sense were in effect during rule making instead of lazy, stupid hand-waving by morons.

Something like, "In a product configuration where consumers could be injured by fan blades in normal use without such modification, the following safety precautions must be added to the design:"

Then, no inspectors required, if a product does not comply, a complaint could be lodged (if anyone cared, doubtful, but hey) and the manufacturer required to comply within the legal system. Or, no one would complain, and the "rule" would be forgotten as one of the millions of useless, masturbatory spurts legislators tend to product because, for some reason, the entire world seems to keep electing idiots, and they keep constructing bureaucracies out of more idiots. And products where no risk exist, like the Mac Pro, would be exempt (and immune from legal action) simply because there is no risk in normal use -- which with a computer box is open for updates, or closed for normal operation.

I can't speak for the EU, but here in the US, bureaucracies are terrible things, on the best of days just impeding progress, but often doing far worse, upping costs for no reason, shepherding resources to corporations and away from the people, specifying things like toilet distance from the wall, the number of windows in a house... it's a bloody nightmare. I own a recent Mac Pro, and I can tell you that getting yourself injured by the fan would take an act of stupidity so gross as to basically guarantee you couldn't operate a computer anyway.

Also, when you say a rule isn't expensive to abide by, the problem is that when you add all the rules together, all those little expenses become one big expense. So keeping them from proliferating is a good idea. Which, again, not really something you find in government. Good ideas, that is.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ericloewe]

This is the EU.

We sent our most bureaucratic bureaucrats to a single location (for bonus waste we even move them around regularly!), hoping that they'd start looking at stuff and figuring out ways to make our part of the world safer/more attractive/friendlier/etc.

Sometimes it works. Sometimes they overdo it a bit. Sometimes they act like the true bureaucrats they are.

I'd say this time they overdid it a bit.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ericloewe]

Full of shit? The current Mac Pro is indeed pretty much EOL.

It hasn't been updated for years (except perhaps a new graphics card or two), so it's still using Nehalem processors. Pretty much everyone else is using Sandy Bridge E and up by now.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Zorpheus]

EU citizen here. I have never seen a Mac Pro, and did not hear about problems with models from other manufacturers. I can't find informations on how relevant the Mac Pro is in Europe either, since my Google search is flooded with this news ...

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Uberbah]

What you (and others that share your "The thrill is gone" sentiments simply don't understand Product Development cycles.

So why has Apple brought Thunderbolt to the rest of their line through the Product Development cycle, but their workstations are the last to the new high speed bus? And USB 3?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Kat M.]

BTW, I wonder how the average EU CITIZEN thinks of all this? Fascinating that I'm not seeing the typical Slashdot posturing and whining against government overreach; just people bitching at Apple for doing the only thing they can on short notice.

It's an IEC standard, not something that the EU thought up. The same standard will presumably come to the United States and Canada in a year or two. Note that this also affects several non-EU countries (Switzerland and Norway in particular).

Also, it hasn't been "short notice". The amendment was published in December 2009, over three years ago.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[tibit]

Those Dyson fans have a small-er noisy fan that feed the air multiplier. It only makes sense for a certain size of fans as what you reduce is the buffeting low-frequency sound that's annoying as hell with large blades. This makes zero sense for cooling fans in computers. The smaller feeder fans will simply wear out faster than the big ones, noise will not decrease.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[tibit]

You don't dig what they have done, do you? Regular fans have a low-frequency noise related to the blade frequency. It's the "omph-omph" sound that you get with helicopters as well. Dyson has traded off this low frequency noise for higher frequency scream of the ducted fan. I have no idea how stupid one has to be to think there's no fan involved at all...

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[SuricouRaven]

Ah, you're right. It was the 'Power Mac.' I got the names confused because the G5s used a case design very similar to the current Mac Pro series, even though the computers within were a different architecture. The water cooling part was correct.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Luckyo]

Because this problem hasn't been solved for decades with various shapes of grille that minimize turbulence?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Whiteox]

Sure! I think you're implying something more profound. That Apple won't move on this issue because it is ridiculous regarding the fan, but I'm not too sure about the electrical port protection. It is impossible to get electrocuted with the current setup, so maybe the EU is more concerned with the internal shielding of all appliances.
Apple have decided not to comply which means:
1. Apple can afford not to market their MacPro's to the EU (see point 7)
2. Apple think that the cost of redesign is not worth the effort, as I doubt they would make an EU only model. If they redesign, then that single design would be for established markets in toto. Almost like making a car that complies with every country's design rules.
3. Apple is betting on the EU making an exception on their product family and hope that public pressure will force the EU to rescind the requirement.
4. Apple have inside information that the EU is going to fall apart 'real-soon-now' and so the modification is pointless.
5. Apple are betting on grey/black market imports.
6. Apple have enough economic, multinational importance to ignore the EU altogether in a delusional world-view sourced from France.
7. Apple sell more than enough iProduct in the EU that already complies.

I'm actually quite happy about this as it adds to the current stratification of geo-politics.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

If you've ever *looked* in a Mac Pro case, there are no wires hanging out or even remotely in danger of getting caught in the fan, due to being secured.

The directive is idiotic. It drives up the cost and decreases the lifespan (catches dust) to protect absolute morons that would disassemble their computer WHILE IT IS RUNNING.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[AmiMoJo]

I see you have been reading the Daily Mail or some equivalent anti-Euro rag.

Accidents were happening because of this issue. Damaged wiring can cause electric shocks, smoke and even fires. Apparently some manufacturers didn't think it was worth spending a few pennies on a fan guard for their product. Well, we do seem to like buying cheap imported products sometimes. When you can buy a hair dryer for â1, a device that is designed to get hot and blow warm air at you with a fan, some minimum safety standards sound like a good idea.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[the_B0fh]

http://www.macworld.com/article/1167247/cook_apple_planning_professional_mac_for_2013.html#lsrc.twt_jsnell

Tim already said it is coming. The email has been confirmed by Apple. "Apple confirmed to Macworld that the message is indeed from Cook."

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[lgw]

Correct. On this side of the Atlantic, they are our servants.

Here's a clue: the folks who make more than you, and have more power? Not your servants. It sort of works the other way around. Pretty much like it always has in Europe, though at leat you don't have to knuckle under when your lord rides by these days, so you got that going for you.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[lgw]

The only reason to buy the newer one, that I can see, is being able to flash it to people at the bar, at work, on the bus or train - even in the grocery store. "Ooohhhh, look at that guy! He has the newest little shiney! I want to be like him!"

While I'm sure your right, and many Apple fans really do think this way, I find it amazing because I couldn't tell one apple product from another, let alone an Apple from non-Apple tablet. At least with cars and jewelery, you don't have to be part of the in-crowd to recognize the item as a status symbol in the first place (though, come to think of it, mechanical watches are the other way - you'd need someone to explain they were expensive).

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[R3d M3rcury]

Well, if you're not interested in having the latest greatest device, you probably don't care about having the latest and greatest software, either.

My roomate still has her first gen iPad. She uses it for checking mail and surfing the web. It still works fine for all of that. She has a backgammon game that works fine, too.

If everything works fine, why upgrade?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Registered Coward v2]

http://www.macworld.com/article/1167247/cook_apple_planning_professional_mac_for_2013.html#lsrc.twt_jsnell

Tim already said it is coming. The email has been confirmed by Apple. "Apple confirmed to Macworld that the message is indeed from Cook."

http://www.macworld.com/article/1167247/cook_apple_planning_professional_mac_for_2013.html#lsrc.twt_jsnell

Tim already said it is coming. The email has been confirmed by Apple. "Apple confirmed to Macworld that the message is indeed from Cook."

No ones doubting the message, just its interpretation. "... something really great late next year..." could mean a new MP desktop or something completely different. People want to believe Apple will continue to build a high end expandable MP but their idea of "really great" may not be that. Hell, it could be an iMac Pro or Mini Pro my point is nowhere in the email does Cook explicitly say a new MP is in the works. The email is classic corporate speak that let's everyone read into it what they want to hear.

it reminds me of the old board game Diplomacy - never make a specific promos is but say things in a way that makes people think you are on their side.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Kjella]

Nobody expected the EU rules to be less bureaucratic, but at least you're dealing with one set of rules instead of 27 sets of rules. I see all the special cases or rules our bureaucrats would like to make if EU would let them and going our separate ways would clearly have its disadvantages too.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ericloewe]

For the record, the only reason I'd touch the Daily Mail is to burn it. I'm also not anti-EU. Every time I look at the other side of the Atlantic, I'm glad we organized a bureaucratic organism that keeps the worst (rampant anti-consumer practices, TSA and associated backscatter X-ray - emphasis on the X-ray part - scanners, etc.) out of this bloc.

However, I can recognize that they overdo it at times. I'm not familiar with the specific standards involved, but it's perfectly possible that a somewhat poorly-worded document can cause some issues here and there where there are none. I'd say it's a small price to pay for protection against the really nasty stuff.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ericloewe]

No need to convince me, I believe in the EU. The advantages clearly outweigh the disadvantages. But that doesn't mean we have to move the whole bureaucratic apparatus regularly to please the French.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[wagnerrp]

What's wrong with disassembling a computer WHILE IT IS RUNNING? Hell, most servers these days come with hot-swappable fans. You're supposed to open up the system while it is running, yank the fans out, and put new ones in.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[dannys42]

I agree. The Retina Macbook Pro for example is entirely sealed. There's simply no reason for anyones fingers to get near the fan under any "normal" operation of the device.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

It's simply not worth retooling for, just for Europe, when their new Mac Pro will only be 3 months away.

And it's not about fingers. It's about fragments if the fan breaks.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

Dyson's brilliance is in marketing, not engineering.

Actually the bagless vacuum certainly was an engineering achievement. And one that had escaped the existing vac manufacturers for decades.

They are also good at marketing.

Just because something is well marketed doesn't mean it isn't an engineering achievement as well.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

There are several problems in your post. I've covered some in previous posts, so I'll just cover this one here:

The USA also has safety standards. So your implication that having safety standards is an EU problem* is extremely misguided.

(* Not that safety standards are a problem. They are one of the good things that governments do.)

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[russotto]

One thing that makes me better disposed to this case is that it wasn't a regulation pulled out of thin air by random government bureaucrats, but rather one drawn up by electrical engineers, from an independent standards body not controlled by the EU, the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC).

The problem with organizations like this is that they start out doing things which make sense. But then at some point they've already rounded all the corners, marked all the high-voltage lines, prevented all the radiation leaks, etc. But they've still got to make regulations. So they start going batshit crazy with ever-increasing regulations with smaller and smaller gain. Ground fault circuit interruptors are good in wet locations.... let's put them EVERYWHERE. And add arc fault circuit interruptors too. Make every fan have a fan guard, inside and out. And make the fans automatically brake if a finger comes near, etc,etc.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

The thing is everyone here saying that the Mac Pro is safe is not even aware of what the protection is about. They think it's about protecting from users poking their fingers in. Whereas actually it's about what happens when fans with manufacturing defects fragment. It applies to fans that qualify under a formula of mass and top-speed.

The inside of a Mac Pro is an operator accessible area - it's made easy to open because users are expected to replace parts. Such operators are being given protection against flying fan fragents.

It maybe that those criticising have never seen a big, fast fan fragment. But safety standards are created from experience of actual accidents that do happen.

Safety standards have saved countless lives, and many more injuries. They are one of the good things that governments do. People who think they are worthless just haven't thought them through. It's just the usual anti-government knee jerk from the unthinking.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

It's not about the Macbook Pro. It's about the Mac Pro. Very different.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

It's none of those. It's that they already redesigned the Mac Pro, and it's going to be out later in the year. The smart bet is at the WWDC in June.

It's simply not worth doing a modification on the old model for the EU when the next model is not far away.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

When it comes to safety regs, the potential people that are inconvenienced are manufacturers. The potential people who are benefited are the consumers who aren't killed or injured.

Clearly, in this regard, the regulators (the EU) they are the servants of the people, not the wealthy.

It's certainly not always that way round. But it's a stupid criticism to make in this case.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

It's nothing to do with handing wires, or probing fingers. It's to do with what happens in those rare cases where a fan fragments. And it only applies to fans that are dangerous in this instance, as judged by a formula or density and max-speed.

The inside of a Mac Pro is an operator accessible area, not a service area. It's expected for users to open them. And they should be protected from injury due to manufacturing faults when they do so.

If you want to rely on the idea that the machine is off when the case is opened, then that would require safety cut-off switched that made that happen. Calling people morons doesn't cut it - ordinary people just forget - or have a reason for running it whilst open.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

Just because you don't understand the reason for a reg doesn't mean the reg is unreasonable. It was put there by someone who knows the issue better than you.

In this particular case you're making the same mistake that all the other critics are making. You;re assuming that this is about people putting fingers into the fans rather than what happens when larger fans break and fragment, and there's fly debris.

That's how I know you don't even know what's in the reg, let alone whether it's justified.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

Because Mac Pros are a niche that doesn't sell that many units. As such they haven't done a redesign in a long time.

There is a new one coming along this year though. Smart bet is it'll be released at the WWDC in June.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[russotto]

Just because you don't understand the reason for a reg doesn't mean the reg is unreasonable. It was put there by someone who knows the issue better than you.

What, I'm just supposed to trust in my betters?

In this particular case you're making the same mistake that all the other critics are making. You;re assuming that this is about people putting fingers into the fans rather than what happens when larger fans break and fragment, and there's fly debris.

It has nothing to do with debris; that's just something you made up to justify an obvious over-reach. It's related to the likelyhood for the fan blades to cause pain or injury to someone sticking their finger into it, which is based on a function of mass, rotational speed, and radius. Notably missing is durability of the fan blade, a strong hint that it has nothing to do with debris.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

It has nothing to do with debris; that's just something you made up to justify an obvious over-reach.... Notably missing is durability of the fan blade, a strong hint that it has nothing to do with debris.

Its not made up, it's taken from a presentation on this particular regulation. Sorry if your Google search didn't find it for you. It'll probably take me 10 minutes to find it. If you guarantee me an apology for wasting my time, when I show you, I'll go find it for you.

Durability of the fan is irrelevant, given that we are talking about fault conditions, not normal use. Things break.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[AmiMoJo]

I'm not familiar with the specific standards involved, but it's perfectly possible that a somewhat poorly-worded document can cause some issues here and there where there are none.

So, you are biased against the EU. Instead of giving it the benefit of the doubt, at least until you found out the most basic facts about the issue, you just assumed it was a poorly worded document cooked up by some bureaucrats for lulz or something.

This is exactly what the Daily Mail and all the other EU haters want. People assume the EU must be in the wrong, must be crap because they keep getting told it is. The default assumption is incompetence and bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[sa1lnr]

You're trying to reason with someone in this thread who has a user name "macs4all"? :)

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ericloewe]

Again, you're reading too much into what I've said. I merely said that if a document has a poorly-worded sentence, it can cause some inconveniences. These being bureaucrats and not experts, they'd gladly approve something endorsed by experts.

Again, I do not think they're incompetent. They've done plenty of good things, as I've mentioned. Sometimes it does sound like they spend a bit too much time with some minor issues, like the acceptable containers for oil and vinegar to be served in.

Don't assume that just because I'm skeptical of bureaucrats (who isn't?) I'm skeptical of the EU - I'm not.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[drinkypoo]

The water cooling part was correct.

It was correct, but it was still wrong — on Apple's part. There was a rash of water-cooled G5s leaking crap on people's desks because Apple wasn't qualified to do (or buy) liquid cooling.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

The rotating blade of a chainsaw is an operator accessible area. I guess we need a protector over the entire thing while it's running, cause somebody could touch it.

The rare case that the chainsaw blade breaks could damage stuff, so best cover it in a screen to protect whatever and whoever.

This world is dangerous, and exercising reasonable precaution, like shutting the machine down, should be expected. If they DON'T do it, then they should run the risk, or mitigate it themselves.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[SuricouRaven]

That's how I knew about it: Used to have one sitting in a cupboard at work. Couldn't do anything with it, as even if we'd had the parts to fix the cooling that leaked we couldn't be sure if the power supply beneath had taken any damage and might be dangerous. We hung onto it for years as a source of spares, until the last of the Power Macs were decommissioned in favor of iMacs.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[IAmR007]

As someone who's spent significant time living in both, your belief that the US government is significantly better/different is quaint and amusing. Maybe the EU went overboard on fan guards (the new rule actually seems reasonable to me) but at least no one tells you how big your soda cup can be, or threatens to lock you up for carrying a bottle of wine in public, or crossing the street at the wrong place. Every country has their little restrictions and laws which often seem normal to those living there and batshit crazy to everyone else. C'est la vie :)

Plus, this is something that doesn't inconvenience the user in any way and is extremely cheap. Companies have shown many times that they are willing to accept injury lawsuits as a cost of doing business rather than design and test products for safety in the first place. The same goes for regulations when those regulations aren't strict enough to prevent selling such items in the first place (just look at the EU/Microsoft cases).

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[cgt]

If you require these guards, you could install them yourself or buy a different computer. If you don't like the way Apple makes their products, don't buy them (as with any other product).

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[the_B0fh]

Whatever the replacement may be - a stack of Mac Minis in a Mac Pro case, the point is, the next gen of the product is being worked on and is close to completion.

They're just letting their EU customers know, if you want a current gen box, buy it before March.

That's not being terrible bad.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[AmiMoJo]

Should I walk in to an Apple store and start disassembling their computers to check if they have fan guards? Might be easier to just require them on everything so I know that any product I buy in a shop is safe.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[cgt]

Should I walk in to an Apple store and start disassembling their computers to check if they have fan guards?

Why wouldn't you just ask them?

Might be easier to just require them on everything so I know that any product I buy in a shop is safe.

So what you're saying is that because you're too lazy to research products you intend to buy properly, Apple should be forced to make their computers in the way that you prefer?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[AmiMoJo]

Actually it's more like the average person wouldn't know to even ask if the fans are safe, they just expect their government to protect them. That is the point of rules on product safety - you don't have to be an expert on everything just to avoid buying something dangerous.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[dannys42]

Oh, lol... That article makes sooo much more sense now. Clearly I need more sleep.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Kielistic]

A chainsaw has as many blade guards and safety features they can put between blade and user without stopping it from being a cutting device. Including features to reduce the chance of being injured from a chain being broken (which is a lot easier than you seem to think).

A fan guard is a harmless safety feature that doesn't affect a fan's ability to fan. Heaven forbid premium safety features be provided on a premium priced piece of equipment.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Moondevil]

I'm sorry, this logic just doesn't work when operating systems are bundled with hardware.

Why not? It was like that before the PC took over the consumer market.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

You can misuse the chainsaw during NORMAL operation with all the fancy safety features and still hurt yourself.

You can also misuse the current incarnation of the Mac Pro during ABNORMAL operation (aka with the side door off) and maybe nick some dead skin off (the fans typically spin slower than a normal computer).

Putting the guards on it reduces the lifespan by trapping dust, making it not last as long and be less of a premium product. It doesn't matter if this is an "premium priced" Apple or a $400 Dell, the rule is stupid, as in the people it is "protecting" lack intelligence or common sense.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[rpstrong]

The bagless concept - that is, using a vortex to separate the dirt - was used on our Sears whole house vacuum system back in the late '60s. Dyson didn't invent it, no more than Bose invented the folded transmission line or Apple invented the mouse. All three companies excel at being able to use and promote existing technology - in other words, marketing.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

The bagless concept - that is, using a vortex to separate the dirt - was used on our Sears whole house vacuum system back in the late '60s.

That's interesting. I knew they were used for industrial purposes before Dyson, and that's where he got the idea.

But he certainly invented the vortex system for self contained vacuum cleaners. And that was more than simply copying the bigger industrial systems. Details change when the scale changes. Dyson spent a long time developing his vacuum. The proof of that is that he got patents around the world for it, so strong that everyone else had to wait for the patents to expire before they could do any kind of vortex based bagless cleaner.

No one is claiming Apple invented the mouse. But they have invented plenty of other things. Never heard of the Bose thing.

All three are indeed talented at marketing. But that doesn't mean they are not also talented at inventing and engineering. Dyson and Apple are that too. Don't know about Bose.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

The rotating blade of a chainsaw is an operator accessible area. I guess we need a protector over the entire thing while it's running, cause somebody could touch it.

I don't know how things are where you are, but you need to have a license to buy or rent or take a job operating a chainsaw here. Lesson 1 is that you wear suitable protective clothing. Steel toecapped boots, gauntlets, and eye protectors etc. There's your second level of protection over and above the guards and safety catches of the device itself.

A chainsaw is not a computer, and it has it's own set of standards, which make their own balance of utility against safety.

This world is dangerous, and exercising reasonable precaution, like shutting the machine down, should be expected. If they DON'T do it, then they should run the risk, or mitigate it themselves.

Thanks for your layman's opinion. But your layman's opinion does not and should not override the opinions of the experts that write the standards.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[cthulhu11]

Years ago the system manufacturer I worked for had a special tape-drive door for machines sold into France (IIRC) because of a regulation that the unit had to be operable with the door closed. There was a hole in the door for the power switch, which IIRC had to be a different color as well.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Seb C.]

My main concern is not about regulation change, it's about Apple urging consumer to a product they want to abandon.. It's a bit like "hey, i need your money to purge my stocks...", where as a decent consumer choice would be to wait for the new shortcoming version...

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Seb C.]

Of course not. But apple has some habits of deprecating a version when 3-4 new versions are available. In that case, the users already lost one landmark...
And, honestly, a quite large part of apple customers like to have the last up to date tablet, so they can strut for about one year. This time, they got fouled.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[stenvar]

Injuries? If you manage to get at it inside the case and do it just right, a computer fan can take a bit of skin off and it hurts like hell; that's about the extent of it.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

Balancing utility against safety, you say? You mean, how you can easily stick your hand into the blade of an operating chainsaw, or stick your hand into a blade of a plastic fan? Yet somehow we can trust people to not do one of these where the danger is constantly present, but it's far too dangerous to rely on them to not do the other where it is an abnormal situation.

The "experts" that write the standards are just looking to keep their jobs. If you fix everything that's broken, then just go and break stuff so you can fix it.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

It's not better, it's either middling or worse. It causes the machines to not last as long and adds costs to protect against a situation where you would have to go out of your way to hurt yourself in.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

Adding a protective grill or designing the fan enclosure appropriately does nothing to reduce the the life of the machine, nor are there significant costs.

In this case it has caused Apple to stop selling the Mac Pro in Europe 3 months early. But that's not because they didn't have sufficient time. This standard was made years ago. More likely is that the current Mac Pro design lasted far longer than they planned.

You keep going back to the "well if people are injured, they're asking for it" line of the Victorian industrialists. Thankfully it's been a long time since that was an acceptable argument.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[tibit]

So, where are those bagless Sears vacuums, then? It's not about who did it first, it's about who did it first in a certain form of a product. Our DC14 Animal is overall doing quite well, considering it's used in commercial duty (2-3h per day, every day). Sure there are things that wear out and have to be replaced, but for a household product it's still a remarkable level of robustness. Or course you can't have monkeys using it, duh.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

Yes, because we still sell razor blades with the same expectation, just like we expect people to shut the computer down before working on it.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

Razor blades.

Back in those early Victorian days, they were "cut throat" razors. Very dangerous.

Then along came the safety razor. Still dangerous whilst replacing the blade, but much safer when screwed up in it's enclosure.

Then along comes cartridge blades, where the blade is kept in it's enclosure at all times.

Then comes the cartridge blade with wires running in front of the blades, safer still.

Parallel to all this, you have the development of the electric razor. Again, far safer than bladed razors.

Razors show exactly the same pattern of stepwise refinement to more safer designs. Including at the point at which we are replacing parts.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

The difference here, is that it's not illegal to sell "cut throat" razors.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[BasilBrush]

So by that argument, there should be no safety standards on anything?

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

By the logic of the EU, people are smart enough to handle cut throat razors properly as to not slice their neck open, but too stupid to know that they should not open a computer while it is running and stick their hand next to spinning fans and get their knuckles nicked.

The evolution of razors gives people a choice in the level of skill required to properly operate the razor. For the computer, just turn it off to increase the safety while working on it! More than likely you _have_ to do that anyway.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[ashpool7]

Life is an intelligence test. There aren't rails over every ravine, every tiger put in a cage, every sharp stick taped off with a warning label. But don't worry, eventually the safety regulators will get to everything.

There is a point where more safety regulations do more harm than good. This is that point. They add cost, weight, manufacturing time, and catch dust to lessen equipment lifespan. There is already a fan guard on the computer, it's called the case.

The fans are INSIDE the case, safe from fingers. If you're going to pull the case apart while it's running, then that's no different than willfully disregarding any other safety warning or operating anything else improperly,be it a razor or a chainsaw. The CASE is the safety guard.

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[rpstrong]

So, where are those bagless Sears vacuums, then?

Here are a few: http://tinyurl.com/a5hb39k

Re:Unlikely to be discontinued altogether

[Uberbah]

Because Mac Pros are a niche that doesn't sell that many units. As such they haven't done a redesign in a long time.

Except:

1. Everything not iOS is now a "niche product" for Apple
2. The even more niche Mac Mini will have had USB 3 and Thunderbolt for the better part of a year before the Mac Pro will finally have them
3. Maybe the reason Apple doesn't move so many Mac Pros is that it is outdated and overpriced
4. Apple is foolish to let it's pro offering wither when that user base has saved them in the past

Between killing XServer, the ossification of the Mac Pro, and treating Final Cut as redheaded stepchild, Apple hasn't been showing much love for their pro users for over two years now. Sure sure, most of their money comes from the iOS ecosystem, but Apple is letting it's competitors take it's lunch the way Apple once did it to Premier.

It must be about "the children"

[mariox19]

Thank goodness Europe will be safe now from those assault Macs.

Re:It must be about "the children"

[macs4all]

Thank goodness Europe will be safe now from those assault Macs.

You sir, have made my day!

Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[erroneus]

They have no interest in keeping their legacy gear up to date or up to code. Their primary investments are:

1. Lawyers
2. iPhone/iPad/iPod

Their OSX currently reflects this direction.

I for one and sad to see Apple giving up this part of their product line. It is the only part I really like.

The sad reality is that Apple only cares about what Apple cares about. Not about what its consumers want and Apple (Steve Jobs) has stated it plainly. It is not for the people to tell Apple what they want, but rather for Apple to tell people what they want. And by extension, it is not for "the people" to tell Apple anything at all. They would rather exit a market they cannot control and dominate.

And so, as things progress, they will continue to lose control over the iDevice market and the end is inevitable.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[macs4all]

I for one and sad to see Apple giving up this part of their product line. It is the only part I really like.

Quit hand wringing.

Do you live in the EU? No? Not affected.

Live in the EU? Lobby for this bullshit "Directive" to be repealed. Good luck with that. You want a good example of "not listening to people", look no further than your local government.

Otherwise, stop whining.

Oh, and since Mac Pros will still be available in the other 100 or so Countries where Apple products are sold, are you really so lame that you couldn't GET one if you wanted to, even if you lived in the EU? Or did the EU outlaw "possession", too?

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, this is Apple's way of "pushing back" against this particular bullshit, by attempting to incite some of their customers to start pressuring for change in the law?

Oh, and I note that you have cherry picked your Apple "quotes". I seem to remember that Tim Cook himself penned an email to a nervous Apple fan (actually, a whole group of them), assuring him of Apple's dedication to the Mac Pro, specifically. But I notice that you have conveniently had a memory lapse about that.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[mrbester]

The EU hasn't outlawed "possession" but they are a bit funny about grey imports.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[Marxdot]

False sense of wisdom.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[tibit]

Lobby for this bullshit "Directive" to be repealed.

Are you mad or something? This directive, and the standards it refers to, are nothing even remotely new! For all I know, Apple participates in the standards bodies that write this stuff. Wake up call: standards are written by volunteers from the industry. If you're in the industry and your company can afford it, there's not much left for you to do but to participate in the standards making process. Apple has no reason to complain about any of that, because with their money they could have people in every working group of IEC, ANSI and ISO there is. Many people, even.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[janrinok]

It is interesting that you seem to place the blame on the EU - if you read the second link of TFS it finishes by pointing out: 'This standard has been approved as a National Standard of Canada by the Standards Council of Canada, and has been approved as by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) as an American National Standard.' It is, if I understand it correctly, an International Standard that the EU is obeying. I cannot imagine why the US or Canada, for example, is not also complying.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[macs4all]

Lobby for this bullshit "Directive" to be repealed.

Are you mad or something? This directive, and the standards it refers to, are nothing even remotely new! For all I know, Apple participates in the standards bodies that write this stuff. Wake up call: standards are written by volunteers from the industry. If you're in the industry and your company can afford it, there's not much left for you to do but to participate in the standards making process. Apple has no reason to complain about any of that, because with their money they could have people in every working group of IEC, ANSI and ISO there is. Many people, even.

I didn't see Apple "complaining", did you?

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[macs4all]

It is interesting that you seem to place the blame on the EU - if you read the second link of TFS it finishes by pointing out: 'This standard has been approved as a National Standard of Canada by the Standards Council of Canada, and has been approved as by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) as an American National Standard.' It is, if I understand it correctly, an International Standard that the EU is obeying. I cannot imagine why the US or Canada, for example, is not also complying.

Then why is it only the EU in which Apple feels compelled to (temporarily) withdraw the Mac Pro?

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[macs4all]

Mac Pros have cooling fans with access to the fan blades. Such fans will be forbidden within the EU from March first. They couldn't keep selling those models there even if they wanted to.

So, what defines "Access", since you HAVE to have the computer DISASSEMBLED to get anywhere NEAR a "fan blade: in the POWERED-OFF Mac Pro?

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[the_B0fh]

You also seemed to have forgotten the part where Steve Jobs said - if the customers like what we do, great, they will buy it. If they don't like what we do, then they won't buy it, and we will change it.

Funny how dropping complete lines of words changes the entire context.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[russotto]

Then why is it only the EU in which Apple feels compelled to (temporarily) withdraw the Mac Pro?

Don't know for sure, but most likely the new standards either
1) Aren't mandatory in the US (just because something is an ANSI standard doesn't mean products are required by law to comply) or
2) Only apply to new designs.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[macs4all]

I'm no expert on the case law of a law that's not in effect right now. I'm guessing most such fans are not readily accessible while in use.

Which kind of makes this entire "Directive" USELESS, don'tcha think?

Knives, scissors, screwdrivers, pencils; ALL of them are not just dangerous; but actually DEADLY, even when "not in use".

Why not ban them? After all, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[gnasher719]

Then why is it only the EU in which Apple feels compelled to (temporarily) withdraw the Mac Pro?

Quite possible that Apple thinks the fan is absolutely safe, even though it doesn't match the specs of the standard. Apple uses a large number of fans running at low speeds, because many large, slow fans produce less noise than a few fast running ones. They might not run fast enough to hurt or injure anyone.

Re:Apple only cares about consumer gear now

[gnasher719]

First two items in the instruction: Turn computer off. Wait ten minutes. Should be 100% safe if you follow the instructions.

Whatever

[Subratik]

They have a good system set up. They release new products every year. It would be more expensive, I'm assuming, to sell newly designed laptops or accept recalls and pay for the labor.

People will still buy it anyway. ... But will people keep buying the iPhone, apples biggest moneymaker? The answer to that question could significantly drop apple's value.

Re:Whatever

[technosaurus]

They will have to whenever Apple simply decides there are too many iphone(x) users that haven't "upgraded" time to phase out support, shut down the app store and stop updates. P.T. Barnum would be so proud.

SRSLY?

[cellocgw]

So if I understand the reg. in question, hardware with an internal fan (like a Mac Pro) that is only accessible if you pull the housing must have an internal fan guard? WTF?
This makes no sense. For that matter that thing about minimum and max cord length is pretty wacked. Is there really a computer, or transistor radio, manufacturer out there who wanted to deliver 7-meter power cords?

Re:SRSLY?

[moronoxyd]

So if I understand the reg. in question, hardware with an internal fan (like a Mac Pro) that is only accessible if you pull the housing must have an internal fan guard? WTF?

The Mac Pro has a power supply. The power supply has a fan. This fan is close to the outer housing of the Mac Pro and accessible through some gills of some sort ... Do you now see where the potential risk lies?

Re:SRSLY?

[aaarrrgggh]

Power cord lengths are regulated in the US as well-- forget if it is 2m or 6ft. You can only use 15ft cords in "information technology equipment rooms." Of course in the US it is regulated by UL/NFPA, and not a government agency.

Re:SRSLY?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, an American.

Re:SRSLY?

[Clsid]

Yup, Americans are always practical and straight to the point. Very low need for bullshit, committees and endless talk.

Re:SRSLY?

[iluvcapra]

When was the last time you saw someone EAT a circuit board?

Cellphone goes into trash, trash goes into landfill, rain goes into landfill, reactive compounds go into groundwater.

Proper eWaste disposal methods can minimize this, but in a lot of cases this just means shipping the cellphone to Dalian or Inner Mongolia where an 11-year-old makes a dime an hour dipping circuit boards into a hot bath. In the open air. Without a mask.

Re:SRSLY?

[macs4all]

So if I understand the reg. in question, hardware with an internal fan (like a Mac Pro) that is only accessible if you pull the housing must have an internal fan guard? WTF?

The Mac Pro has a power supply. The power supply has a fan. This fan is close to the outer housing of the Mac Pro and accessible through some gills of some sort ... Do you now see where the potential risk lies?

Please show me ANY picture of a Mac Pro where an EXPOSED-TO-THE-OUTSIDE fan is shown. The Mac Pro has PLENTY of fans (ask anyone who has made one really work hard!), BUT NONE OF THEM ARE ACCESSIBLE OR EVEN VISIBLE (except through perforated metal GUARDS) WITHOUT OPENING THE CASE!!!

Got it?

Here's a handy DIY document from Apple, that shows ALL of the fan locations. Please tell me how these aren't "guarded" already.

Your move.

Re:SRSLY?

[icebraining]

We have grills on our fans, you have the TSA, and we're the nanny continent?

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

Re:SRSLY?

[icebraining]

Yeah, well, you don't live here anyway, so shut up and go get groped by the TSA.

Re:SRSLY?

[greg1104]

Think of the children, with their tiny fingers.

Re:SRSLY?

[macs4all]

When was the last time you saw someone EAT a circuit board?

Cellphone goes into trash, trash goes into landfill, rain goes into landfill, reactive compounds go into groundwater.

Proper eWaste disposal methods can minimize this, but in a lot of cases this just means shipping the cellphone to Dalian or Inner Mongolia where an 11-year-old makes a dime an hour dipping circuit boards into a hot bath. In the open air. Without a mask.

And there is more LEAD in ONE STILL-COMPLIANT LEAD-ACID CAR BATTERY THAN IN A THOUSAND COMPUTERS.

Whaddya think happens to THEM???

Re:SRSLY?

[elashish14]

Wait, did the TSA start operating in Europe too???

Re:SRSLY?

[jsepeta]

the Mac Pro is not water-cooled. some models of the G5 were liquid-cooled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G5

Re:SRSLY?

[Karljohan]

In europe rules protect the individuals from compaies. In US rules help companies skrew individuals.

Re:SRSLY?

[the eric conspiracy]

It's not 'regulation' in the sense it's a law. It's a requirement from the people that issue liability insurance.

UL is run by a consortium of insurance companies.

It's one of those things that shows that private enterprise isn't necessarily better.

Re:SRSLY?

[jonbryce]

When I get my garage to change the car battery, they keep the old one, and most likely sell the lead plates to a scrap merchant.

Re:SRSLY?

[dissy]

The Mac Pro has a power supply. The power supply has a fan. This fan is close to the outer housing of the Mac Pro and accessible through some gills of some sort ... Do you now see where the potential risk lies?

http://i46.tinypic.com/2gvvq61.jpg

I don't really see the potential risk there.
However I should admit I've been doing this sort of work for the past 20 odd years, so perhaps that experience is why I don't see it.

It seems one would need to take a long and narrow wire, heat the end up so it glows, then put it in the grill and push it to melt through the plastic in order to touch the fan.

Are people known for doing this?
I admit it wouldn't surprise me, but for those types of people I generally wouldn't trust them holding a screwdriver, and would expect great personal injury from wielding nothing more than a sheet of paper ;P

Compared to many other generic power supplies out there [ https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=psu+fan ] Apple looks to be up with the safer designs out there.

To really get at the fans one needs to open the case. Not many current generation systems are designed to run with the case open. Airflow is too important to prevent component damage.
I always leave the system plugged in so I can discharge static by touching the PSU, but rarely ever powered on.

Re:SRSLY?

[gtall]

Ever see the size of the holes in the Mac Pro's grill. They are fairly small.

Einstein: I know, I'll stick this narrow jabbing thing through the front grill while my MacPro is running.

MacPro: What's this sticking in my fan preventing it from whirling?

Einstein: Huh? The fan stopped.

MacPro: Whew, I'm getting a bit hot in here.

Einstein: Hey, my computer's smoking, what the hell is going on here?

Re:SRSLY?

[aaarrrgggh]

Government agencies adopt private organization standards as local code, which becomes binding through a law. With the National Electrical Code as an example, it is written by members of the National Fire Protection Association. Each US state adopts the code with whatever amendments they feel appropriate, and then the localities adopt the state version with any of their local amendments. This gives the code (and any referenced UL standards) force of law.

Re:SRSLY?

[SourceFrog]

Please don't assume all libertarians want to just let anyone poison everyone else with toxins like lead, it's only the stupid ones.

Re:SRSLY?

[AC-x]

but it is pretty much on-par with requiring fan guards on INTERNAL fans. At some point, governments (world-wide) have to understand that not everything, nor everyone, needs "protected", just because one stupid person went to the E.R. because they stuck their hand in a moving fan.

Except if you read the actual directive and do the math on fan speed/weight it seems unbelievable that any of the Mac Pro's fans would fail it.

The rules are NOT banning all unguarded fans, it only bans unguarded fans that would cause injury if touched.

Re:SRSLY?

[AC-x]

So if I understand the reg. in question, hardware with an internal fan (like a Mac Pro) that is only accessible if you pull the housing must have an internal fan guard? WTF?
This makes no sense. For that matter that thing about minimum and max cord length is pretty wacked. Is there really a computer, or transistor radio, manufacturer out there who wanted to deliver 7-meter power cords?

It doesn't. It only bans unguarded fans that are fast and heavy enough to cause injury. I actually read the regulation and did the math and found that a typical 10cm case fan at 3000rpm is considered so safe it could be on the outside of the case with no guard and still be legal, so I can't imagine how any of the Mac Pro fans would fail it.

Re:SRSLY?

[cgt]

Ah, collectivism. How do you know what I like? There are hundreds of millions of people living in Europe and the US, and you claim to know that Europeans always like X and americans alsways like Y? That is incredibly arrogant. Please note that this comment is not only directed at you, but also at the american you were responding to.

Re:SRSLY?

[macs4all]

99% are recycled

Well, since there are over 1 billion cars (let alone trucks, etc.) in the world, that still means 10,000,000 batteries are getting into landfills. In fact, it was recently estimated hat 40,000,000 Metric TONS of Lead from Lead-Acid Batteries ALONE goes into landfills EVERY YEAR. This is probably more than the lead in the solder of every single lead-based electronic product, 1,000,000 times over.

So, think about it when you say that "99%" of a number that large; because that remaining 1% is STILL a HUGE number. And speaking of which, the same article cited above says it's only 97% of batteries that get recycled, making my 10,000,000 batteries-getting-into-landfills now more like 30,000,000.

Your turn...

Build your own

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.tonymacx86.com/325-building-customac-buyer-s-guide-january-2013.html

Re:Build your own

[0xdeaddead]

I've been using a 2006 Mac Pro "hacked" by using it's Windows bootloader to load up a hackintosh loader to run 10.8 .. Besides adding ram, disks and a better video card, I haven't seen any compelling reason to buy a new one.. but from all the hackintosh stuff I've ever done, the mac pro makes the best "hackintosh" as it is a real mac once you get the OS loaded up...

Re:Build your own

[Le Grande Raoul]

http://www.tonymacx86.com/325-building-customac-buyer-s-guide-january-2013.html

I wish I could say that building a Hackintosh is the answer. Financially, it might make sense to build a Mac Pro level Hackintosh but for the lower performance boxen, the price is the same or even more than an Apple product. I just don't like iMacs because I want to look inside the box and not have to perform mechanical gymnastics to change out a drive or add some RAM. I still want a CD/DVD drive in the front where I can use it where I want it. I may end up with a Mac Mini in a Sonnet server rack-mount adapter. It will hold two Mac Minis and there is a DVD slot in the fron where a drive could be installed, there is on USB port and the power button on the front where it is handy. I would use one Mini and the extra space inside would be used for more drive space. Also, what I consider the real disadvantage others will fine a disadvantage: the gymnastics involved to get the OS to run on non-Apple equipment. I read the instructions with the idea of putting an inexpensive Hackintosh together more for an intellectual activity than anything else. I could say, "Yes, I too socked it to the man and made OSX run on non-Apple hardware". If it all went higgeldy-piggeldy, I could put a Linux on it and have many of the features I like about the OSX (*nix under the hood) and access to off the shelf software through Wine, which is pretty mature these days. When I got to the lines containing all the different types of patching that might (or might not) be done to get it working, I was a bit intimidated. And, with an OS upgrade, I might (or might not) have to go through the whole process again. Those who want to do so, I say go for it. There are hardware lists of parts which will work and plenty of advice on getting the software part working. It is something that can't be done. But, IMHO, it isn't something for just anyone.

Re:Build your own

[Le Grande Raoul]

http://www.tonymacx86.com/325-building-customac-buyer-s-guide-january-2013.html

I wish I could say that building a Hackintosh is the answer. Financially, it might make sense to build a Mac Pro level Hackintosh but for the lower performance boxen, the price is the same or even more than an Apple product. I just don't like iMacs because I want to look inside the box and not have to perform mechanical gymnastics to change out a drive or add some RAM. I still want a CD/DVD drive in the front where I can use it where I want it. I may end up with a Mac Mini in a Sonnet server rack-mount adapter. It will hold two Mac Minis and there is a DVD slot in the fron where a drive could be installed, there is on USB port and the power button on the front where it is handy. I would use one Mini and the extra space inside would be used for more drive space. Also, what I consider the real disadvantage others will fine a disadvantage: the gymnastics involved to get the OS to run on non-Apple equipment. I read the instructions with the idea of putting an inexpensive Hackintosh together more for an intellectual activity than anything else. I could say, "Yes, I too socked it to the man and made OSX run on non-Apple hardware". If it all went higgeldy-piggeldy, I could put a Linux on it and have many of the features I like about the OSX (*nix under the hood) and access to off the shelf software through Wine, which is pretty mature these days. When I got to the lines containing all the different types of patching that might (or might not) be done to get it working, I was a bit intimidated. And, with an OS upgrade, I might (or might not) have to go through the whole process again. Those who want to do so, I say go for it. There are hardware lists of parts which will work and plenty of advice on getting the software part working. It is something that can't be done. But, IMHO, it isn't something for just anyone.

Sorry, posted too fast. The last line: "It is something that can't be done." should read: "It is something that can be done"

Re:Build your own

[SlashDread]

original poster here, not being anon. You are wrong.

It is enterly possible to build mid level Macs for about 50-70% of the price.

Im looking at mine right now, I build a top end Intel core 7, with 32GB RAM, a mid/high video card (Nvideo GTX 660 TI) with 240 SSD + 1TB platters, bought a Dell 27" 2560x1440 display all for about 1600.EU

This would count as a high end iMac (But with a normal servieable case) or a low end Mac Pro (Pro's have Xeon's)

An iMac (without the SSD) with 32GB ram would cost me 2600 Eu. If I compare it with a xeon decked pro, it will even be more (MUCH more)

They way I see it, Apple overcharges for SSD, RAM and peripherals by a large margin.

You are right that it isnt for anyone. Macs "Just work", building a hackintosh requires research and some patience and a basic knowladge about computers.

Re:Build your own

[macs4all]

I just don't like iMacs because I want to look inside the box and not have to perform mechanical gymnastics to change out a drive or add some RAM.

I don't know when the last time you looked was; but in iMacs, the RAM is located right behind a door under the "chin" (two captive screws. Done), and the hard drive, although a bit more "challenging", is not in any way "inaccessible" (any more than your car's alternator or starter is "inaccessible"). I was able to change the HD in a friend's iMac in about 45 minutes, and that was mostly because I was being extra careful. Pop the glass off the front with a couple of suction cups ($4 at Harbor Freight), remove about 12 "bezel" screws, unhook a power cable (so you can prop open the display), and there it is (I don't know why about half of the online "guides" tell you to REMOVE the display. You don't. All you have to do is find a large screwdriver, wooden spoon, or a stick to prop up the display while you work inside the chassis).

If you can't handle that, then you really have no business building a Hackintosh, either. Just sayin'...

Re:Build your own

[Le Grande Raoul]

OK, you were able to do it. However, I made my calculations based on the parts recommended by the referenced article and prices of the recommended vendor. The prices I calculated were 90% of the cost of a similar FactoryMac. The ease of maintenance by using a non-hacked OS is certainly worth the 10% to me.

Re:Build your own

[gtall]

Yeah, 'cause when you buy a Mac, all you are buying is the hardware. Software is free, developed by little elves singing sweet little songs of contentment while bluebirds of happiness sing in the trees.

Re:Build your own

[Le Grande Raoul]

I'm guessing you're kidding...

Re:Build your own

[longbot]

I have a similar vintage Mac Pro, and I've been looking for ways to get it to run 10.8 (I've got 10.6 on here at the moment). Any chance you could spare a link to relevant information on how to do this? Google-fu hasn't turned up anything helpful, and I'd really appreciate it.

Re:Build your own

[Chrontius]

They moved the door to the back, and it's only present on the 27" model now. This is fairly infuriating, since as much as I'd love a 27" monitor, I'd first need to change desks; finding something decent, with scads of storage, at a reasonable price isn't always easy.

I'm the sort of person who would have instead liked to see the new iMac guts in the old iMac case, with room for two to four 3.5" desktop class hard drives, or an internal PCIe slot for a desktop class graphics card in a transverse mounting. Alas, I hear the new iMac is sealed with adhesives instead of magnets, so there's actually been some backsliding.

Re:Build your own

[SlashDread]

I bough MacOS, cost peanuts.

Re:Build your own

[Le Grande Raoul]

I get what you're saying. I liked being able to open up my earlier Macs (IIci, Quadra 800, G4 tower, etc) and poke around. I UGed the processor, RAM, HD (numerous times) on the G4 and it was fun. I have a Mac Mini (2007) now and getting it open to change a drive or just to poke around is frightening. I finally made it so I can just life off the top. Getting at the parts inside is kind of a nightmare, too. There are many things which attract me to a Hackintosh. Assembling it from hardware I choose and, I admit it, sticking it to the man by putting OSX on unapproved hardware. The down side is that I'm really afraid that, someday when I *really* have to get something done, something in the hacking will go silly and I'll have to spend an hour or to getting it working again. Still, what really attracts me to the Mac is the OS. I have always (since beginning computing in the mid 80s) wanted a Unix box because of all the cool things that can be done with Unix. With OSX, I have those things in a terminal or X-Window if I want them. I also have some pretty good off the shelf applications available. Hardware geeks don't have a lot to fiddle with in a machine smaller than a Mac Pro. Software geeks have lots of things to play with.

Re:Build your own

[macs4all]

45 minutes? Holy shit that is forever and a half.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic; but for an unfamiliar procedure, that isn't out of line.

I have worked as an electronics repair tech in a few other lifetimes, and I can tell you that isn't bad.

Someone who has done more than the ZERO I had before could accomplish the same using power screwdrives (I didn't) in about 15 minutes.

And as I said previously, I was being extra careful, with the owner of the iMac standing over my shoulder... I was also having to stop to verify every step with the online "guide" I had printed-out. Someone familiar with iMac repair wouldn't have any of that.

As a comparison, replace your car's starter in under 45 minutes. I'll wait...

Hmm

[_Shad0w_]

I'm going to assume the EU actually stipulates that particular IEC standard must be followed in law then, because the IEC isn't an EU body, it's an international one. In fact ANSI is a full member of the IEC.

Typical Apple Attitude

[Rambo Tribble]

"We don't need you, you need us."

Re:Typical Apple Attitude

[whisper_jeff]

Or, as they've already announced, they plan on launching a new Mac Pro this year and see no reason to modify the existing design to meet new standards for a couple of months when their new machines, which are coming soon, probably meet those standards.

Or you can pretend that it's some elitist attitude thing because that sounds cool, right.

Re:Typical Apple Attitude

[Rambo Tribble]

So, just don't hold the Mac Pro that way?

Re:Typical Apple Attitude

[jsepeta]

No, what Tim Cook said was, "Although we didn’t have a chance to talk about a new Mac Pro at today’s event, don’t worry as we’re working on something really great for later next year." -- that's not saying Apple will release a new Mac Pro; they're working on something different that they think pros will like (or put up with, like Final Cut Pro X).

Re:Typical Apple Attitude

[Guy Harris]

No, what Tim Cook said was, "Although we didn’t have a chance to talk about a new Mac Pro at today’s event, don’t worry as we’re working on something really great for later next year." -- that's not saying Apple will release a new Mac Pro; they're working on something different that they think pros will like (or put up with, like Final Cut Pro X).

And, of course, it's also not saying that Apple won't release a new Mac Pro. It's playing its cards a bit close to the chest, which is a bit surprising, as Apple have traditionally been known for being very open about its future plans. :-)

Re:Typical Apple Attitude

[Type44Q]

Or you can pretend that it's some elitist attitude thing because that sounds cool, right.

I don't know about you, but I for one don't think it sounds cool when Apple tries to pretend that they're elite... (that is what you meant, right?). ;)

Re:No programmers, no apps.

[Jeremy Erwin]

Don't you need a Mac to program for iOS?

Yeah, so?

[phillymjs]

IIRC, Tim Cook already publicly stated a redesigned Mac Pro would be released in 2013.

The other Macs in the lineup have grown more powerful over the years, so the number of people who still specifically need the abilities of a Mac Pro is relatively small. It would make no financial sense for Apple to address these regulations by changing the current Mac Pro design. The best move was what they did-- simply giving those people some warning so anyone who was planning future Mac Pro purchases could decide if they needed to buy the existing model or could afford to wait for the redesigned model to be announced.

Re:Yeah, so?

[painandgreed]

You do not recall correctly. Apple did not say they were redesigning the Mac Pro for 2013.

"Apple said today that it is working on new models and designs for its Mac Pro desktop that will be released in 2013."

Re:Yeah, so?

[phillymjs]

>The number of people who still "specifically need" the Mac Pro aren't very different since Apple hasn't upgraded the expansion capacity of their other headless Macs.

Yes, I know. I thought that in the context of my statement, "the abilities of a Mac Pro" pretty clearly referred to its greater expandability.

politics

[nten]

Apple didn't pay their dues, considering the way the samsung case went in the UK they probably don't lobby/bribe anywhere in europe. Not that I think the case had merit, just that if they had paid they would have won. No one has ever been maimed by a 5.5v fan have they? Whatever manufacturer did pay, looked at the differences between their product and apple's, and found the difference between the two that was easiest to use, then lobbied/bribed the regulators to regulate that difference in their favor. It happens a lot.[needs citation] Any power we give the government, is a power the corporations can buy. People should just start voting for whichever candidate got the fewest campaign contributions, probably wouldn't fix anything, but it would be interesting.

maybe new name and pricing levels or

[Joe_Dragon]

maybe new name and pricing levels or BIG changes. Or maybe just to clear stock so no one get's a older system after that date.

Sales probably aren't good enough anyway

[Nimey]

if the current generation had good enough sales in Europe Apple would make a fix and keep selling.

But since they haven't made any real updates to the Mac Pro in /years/ (the CPU is a few generations behind, still based on the first-gen Core i7 Xeons) their sales just aren't good.

Re:Sales probably aren't good enough anyway

[petermgreen]

the CPU is a few generations behind

Not really to count it as more than one generation behind you'd have to count die shrinks with minor design tweaks as "generations"* and you would also have to consider ivy bridge as being "current" even though there are no dual socket capable ivy bridge parts on the market yet.

still based on the first-gen Core i7 Xeons

Apple brought in the 6 core gulftown (westmere microarchitecture) processors with the mid 2010 model and replaced the quad cores with gulftown versions with the early 2012 model.

It certainly feels like it's been a long time since there has been a significant update but that is partly because intel moved from a model of doing the high end desktop/dual socket server parts first and then the "laptop"/"mainstream desktop" parts later to a model of doing the laptop/mainstream desktop parts first and the "high end desktop"/"dual socket server parts"

*intel has been kind of inconsistent on that reffering to sandy bridge as "second generation i7" and it's shrink ivy bridge as "third generation i7" implying that they count both nahelm and its shrink westmere as "first generation". This may have been partly because you needed both nahelm and westmere to get a full product lineup.

MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill)

[the agent man]

The EU is apparently having too much time making up problems. Just about EVERY appliance in a kitchen is more dangerous than a MacPro. Have you every used a kitchen mixer? Rotating blades hooked up to a high power motor, no protection, no case... We have a number of MacPros. You really have to open up the case and want to stick your finger in there. Even if you would, these motors are low power. The potential injury would be minimal compared to a mixer. This makes no sense. Is the European Union turning into Fire Marshall Bill?

All 3 European customers

[Andy Prough]

were so upset, they had to get a day off from their barista jobs.

Re:Apple is getting out of the computer biz

[phantomfive]

Why do you think that? At their last conference call where they talked about money, I recall Apple being excited about the growth in their Mac sales.

Re:No programmers, no apps.

[drinkypoo]

Don't you need a Mac to program for iOS?

You do, but you can do it on a mini, or if that goes away, on an imac.

I don't think Apple laptops are going anywhere. They might add touch to them though. It would help them keep up with the PC, which is finally heading that direction. To the haters, there's no reason not to have touch, as long as you don't deprecate the touchpad. Of course, Apple has already demonstrated their disregard for touchpad users by reversing the scrolling direction in an update without prior notice... At least they actually gave you a config option for that.

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[__aaltlg1547]

The EU is apparently having too much time making up problems. Just about EVERY appliance in a kitchen is more dangerous than a MacPro. Have you every used a kitchen mixer? Rotating blades hooked up to a high power motor, no protection, no case... We have a number of MacPros. You really have to open up the case and want to stick your finger in there. Even if you would, these motors are low power. The potential injury would be minimal compared to a mixer. This makes no sense. Is the European Union turning into Fire Marshall Bill?

That happened a long time ago.

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[the agent man]

true but the EU appears to be going back in time ;-)

Some may notice a difference ...

[perpenso]

It's not as if they would release 2 ipad versions in one year, completely killing the brand new tablet you bought 6 month earlier...

The second version could do what, exactly, that the first version could not do?

While I agree that "completely killing" is a gross overstatement and I also agree with your sentiment in general that most users would not notice a difference between the 3rd and 4th gen iPads, I would not rule out the possibility that for some there is a noticeable difference.

From 2nd to 3rd gen iPads the GPU goes from dual to quad core, memory from 512 MB to 1024 MB, and the screen resolution doubles (retina display, 4x pixels).
From 3rd to 4th gen iPads the CPU goes from 1.0 GHz to 1.4 and the GPU from 250 MHz to 300.

My understanding is that **some** games run slower on 3rd gen than they do on 2nd gen. There are 4 times as many pixels to update on that retina display and apparently the GPU cores update was not enough. The 4th gen with its CPU and GPU speed updates apparently does not have the same performance issue as the 3rd gen on these games.

For those worried about the resale value of their 3rd gen iPads. Find local developers, they will be more interested than the public in general. Developers will want these slightly slower models for testing purposes.

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[macs4all]

The EU is apparently having too much time making up problems. Just about EVERY appliance in a kitchen is more dangerous than a MacPro. Have you every used a kitchen mixer? Rotating blades hooked up to a high power motor, no protection, no case... We have a number of MacPros. You really have to open up the case and want to stick your finger in there. Even if you would, these motors are low power. The potential injury would be minimal compared to a mixer. This makes no sense. Is the European Union turning into Fire Marshall Bill?

Boy, you just hit the nail on the head!

I'm surprised you can still purchase KITCHEN KNIVES, let alone a MIXER (yow!!!) in the EU. What about curling irons? Soldering irons? Matches? Scissors? Screwdrivers? PENCILS!!!?!? The list goes on and on. NOT ONE OF THOSE HAS EVEN THE SLIGHTEST SAFETY CONSIDERATIONS!!!! The Humanity!!!!

The point being, of course: Where does the nanny state end?!?

Consolidating product lines not exiting market ...

[perpenso]

Apple is getting out of the computer biz and has been for a long time. It's a bit of an open secret that by 2014 - 2015 the only mac computers you will be able to buy are the Air, iMac, and Mini, and I'm not too sure about the Mini. The iPhone and iPad ARE the future of Apple Computers.

The iPhone and iPad are already the heart of Apple. Yet I don't see how the above is getting out of the computer business. The scenario you describe seems like consolidating four product lines into two. For consumers and many developers the MacBook Air may very well be a viable alternative for the MacBook Pro once the Air gets a storage update or two. Personally going with a Pro today is really about saving $380 compared to the 13" Air with a 256MB SSD and external DVD. Once 256MB SSDs make it into the lower end models I might go Air. Performance wise my tasks are more disk bound than CPU bound. I don't need retina since I am normally using an external monitor on a desk. I think I could make a similar argument regarding iMac and Mac Pro. The Pro is already a niche machine.

IMO the most you could say is that Apple would be focusing more on consumers and neglecting the highest end of the customer spectrum. Well that is already the case. FWIW, most developers can get along quite nicely with the consumer lines.

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[macs4all]

But sure, compare PCs to kitchen knifes, as everyone can see that they are so similar.

True. One is patently, plainly, deadly to anyone who comes in contact with it.

The other, you have to be astonishingly unlucky or just plain stupid to even get a LITTLE "hurt" with it.

Wanna guess which one is which?

And in the case (pun intended) of the Mac Pro, THAT isn't even POSSIBLE. Period.

Prove me wrong. Show me the diagram that would show how you could "access" a SPINNING fan blade with a HUMAN body part in the Mac Pro?

Quite frankly, if I were Apple, I would apply for an exemption, or at least argue that they are compliant. The only reason they aren't, IMHO, is that they are poised to offer their new (and likely "compliant") version of the product; but it won't be ready QUITE in time for this Directive.

So, does this Directive make the iMac, the Mac mini, and the Macbook Pro ALL "non-compliant"? Because, IF YOU DISASSEMBLE THEM, you will find "accessible fan blades" in ALL of those products (just like a ZILLION other products by a ZILLION other manufacturers)???

Where does it end?

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[jonbryce]

My kitchen mixer automatically switches off when I remove the cover.

Re:Lead-Acid batteries have a 99.2% recycling rate

[serviscope_minor]

So now what? Why did the Automotive Industry get a 10-year "deferral" on RoHS? I can TELL you why: Graft.

That's some excellent paranoia you've got going there.

The medical, aerospace and military also got a 10 year deferral. Because they equipment has a much longer life and is life critical. Tin whiskers are still a problem, but that simply doesn't matter nearly as much for consumer electronics. You really don't want a tin whisker in your ABS controller. And lead acid batteries have the properties of being very robust to environmental conditions, electrically robust, not containing cadmium (worse than lead), low internal resistance and easy to maintain and recycle. There are no feasible alternatives.

So basically when there are no feasible alternatives, the industry gets a deferral.

So, what do YOU think the automotive industry could be using instead of lead?

Oh yeah graft because gubbmint must be bad.

Re:DysOn fan, bois.

[tibit]

Most Dysons have a foam motor prefilter and a HEPA postfilter. The HEPA filter is rated for life, and the prefilter has to be cleaned every couple of months. In my experience in heavy household use, the postfilter's life rating holds up so far. It looks dirty on the inside, clean on the outside, so it works fine. Those filters remove probably way less than 0.01% of the contaminants by weight from the airflow. Otherwise they'd be plugged solid in a matter of minutes. Just read about what happens when the inter-level seal on the bottom of the canister was failing in a batch of their vacuums -- it was so bad that the 2nd level cyclones were getting plugged solid, never mind the prefilter. The HEPA postfilter is useful at removing the carbon brush dust :)

For the Euro market, they could have designed three level hierarchy of cyclones and dispensed with any other filters, as there's enough power available from the outlet to deal with the dissipation in such a filtering system. What they've done instead is they designed for U.S. marked, with its usual limitation of 1440W available from the electrical outlet (they could have made a 14.5A device if they wanted to push it, but didn't and settled on the usual 12A rating). In Europe you have 3kW available and you can make some fancy vacuums with that much power available.

I have made a very nice sawdust extractor using 6 Dyson canisters as the first 2 stages of filtering, with a custom third level cyclone (81 cones) that obviates the need for HEPA filters. It runs off a 4kW motor with a multi-stage turbine (from an industrial compressor, I think it has 6 or 8 stages) and the exhaust air has a barely detectable wood smell. There are no other filters - I've run it for a while with a HEPA prefilter to the turbine, but since it was clean after a month of use, I took it out as it was pointless.

Changes reqs on fans in user servicable eqpt.

[ChumpusRex2003]

The big changes which have affected apple with the implementation of IEC 60950 Amendment 1 are:

1. Requirement for guards and warnings on fans located within equipment where the fans are accessible during user maintenance/servicing.

The previous regulations did not specify particular requirements for guarding during servicing, on the assumption that service personnel would be expected to know where fans, etc. are.

The new regs for fans in areas accessible during user maintenance are: A fan likely to cause pain if contacted by a finger, needs at minimum a warning label. A fan likely to cause injury if contacted, needs both a label and a guard. In both cases, if the user is expected to service the fan, the some method of deactivating the fan needs to be labelled (e.g. a sticker saying disconnect mains power before removing fan guard would be sufficient).

Where equipment is intended for maintenance by qualified service personnel only, then fan guards are not required.

2. New methods of testing fully solid-state circuit breakers used for providing power to externally accessible ports.

Prior regs only required short-circuit testing of electronic circuit breakers (e.g. as provided on USB ports). The new regs prescribe a whole suite of tests, including response times, handling pulsed overloads, etc.

Re:Changes reqs on fans in user servicable eqpt.

[russotto]

Where equipment is intended for maintenance by qualified service personnel only, then fan guards are not required.

Ah. So the next Mac Pro will likely contain
1) More warning stickers,
2) A notice that "equipment is intended for maintenance by qualified service personnel only, and
3) A screw with some sort of proprietary head securing the case and not doing much else, to "prove" they're serious about the qualified service personnel thing.

Yes, this will certainly be an advancement for safety.

Re:Lead-Acid batteries have a 99.2% recycling rate

[labnet]

Are you a government stooge?
What could the car industry use instead of lead?
Gee let me think for a nanosecond. How about NiMH with integrated charge management.

Lead free was not about the environment. I head never seen a paper that shows eutectic tin lead solder leaches lead. It was about the creation of beurocracy for its own sake. It was a solution for problem that didn't exist. Much like a lot of the new regulations released in europe. It's a squid.

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[labnet]

ru kidding me? You are trying to make excuses for legislation that has no point.
Go stick your finger in a PC fan blade. I've done it heaps of times and never suffered anything close to resembling an injury.
This is a solution where there is no problem, and legislators justifying their existance.

Re:Lead-Acid batteries have a 99.2% recycling rate

[serviscope_minor]

Are you a government stooge?

Yes, and my posting history will certainly confirm this.

Gee let me think for a nanosecond. How about NiMH with integrated charge management.

The automotive environment is absoloutely brutal. It is really terrible and incredibly damaging. Imagine a car out in the Texan summer or northern winter. NiMH batters simply are not as robust as lead acid and they have a higher self discharge. Looking after NiHM batteries is much harder than lead acid ones.

Seriously, lead acid batteries are amazingly well suited to car battery duty and it will be hard to replace them.

Lead free was not about the environment. I head never seen a paper that shows eutectic tin lead solder leaches lead.

Yes it was and you're not looking hard enough.

It was about the creation of beurocracy for its own sake. It was a solution for problem that didn't exist. Much like a lot of the new regulations released in europe.

You are suffering from paranoid delusions.

Slow movers

[pbjones]

Mac Pro can't be a big seller in the EU. I'll agree with other that new designs must be coming and that modding machines for that market isn't worth the effort, and they may also get so unexpected sales. As for fans, many of the servers that I have seen have fan guards fitted, Mac Pros may have been an exception because of the noise issue.

I can't see how the Mac Pro could actually fail...

[AC-x]

As everyone's commenting how "retarded" this EU directive is without actually reading it I thought I'd find out exactly what it says, as it seemed strange that it would ban all unguarded internal fans.

I found this presentation on the EU directive, the part about fans starts at slide 32, or some direct links to the slides: 32, 33, 34, 35, 36.

Basically it appears fans are divided into 3 categories based on their diameter, fan blade speed and weight: a) Won't hurt if touched, b) Will hurt but won't injure if touched and c) Will injure if touched. Category a are fine anywhere, category b are ok in user serviceable areas as long as there's a warning sticker and category c fans can only be accessible to "service personnel". Seems pretty sensible for me.

Now I ran the numbers in the formula just to make sure they're not too strict and a fan with a 5cm blade radius and 100g weight going at 3000rpm (faster than the Mac Pro max rpm) is category a. Seriously a large case fan could be on the outside of the thing with no grill and still be legal.

Even if I've got the figures wrong for the Mac Pro's fans I can't imagine any of the fans being more than category b, which only requires a warning label. I can't help but think Apple are just using it as a PR excuse for failing the "electrical port protection" rules by trying to make the rules seem ridiculously strict.

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[AC-x]

You really have to open up the case and want to stick your finger in there. Even if you would, these motors are low power. The potential injury would be minimal compared to a mixer. This makes no sense. Is the European Union turning into Fire Marshall Bill?

No it's not, because Apple is talking crap about the regulation. It only bans unguarded fans that are fast and heavy enough to cause injury. I actually read the regulation and did the math and found that a typical 10cm case fan at 3000rpm is considered so safe it could be on the outside of the case with no guard and still be legal, so I can't imagine how any of the Mac Pro fans would fail it. Even the next fan category is legal to be unguarded on the inside as long as they put a warning sticker on it...

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[AC-x]

Where does it end?

It ends when people actually get a clue about what the regulation says, rather than just listening to Apple's nonsense. The regulation does not ban unguarded fans, it splits fans into 3 categories based on whether they can cause "pain" or "injury". I actually read the regulation and did the math, apparently a 10cm case fan at 3000rpm is considered so safe that it could be on the outside of the case with no protection and still be legal. Even the next category up can be unguarded on the inside as long as there's a warning label.

I can't see how any of the Mac Pro fans could possibly fail this, I can only think Apple are trying to deflect attention away from failing the electrical ports protection rules.

Re:First Good Thing EVER from Apple

[AC-x]

Actually Apple are just spouting nonsense. The regulation does not ban unguarded fans, it splits fans into 3 categories based on whether they can cause "pain" or "injury". I actually read the regulation and did the math, apparently a 10cm case fan at 3000rpm is considered so safe that it could be on the outside of the case with no protection and still be legal. Even the next category up can be unguarded on the inside as long as there's a warning label.

Re:Smile

[icebraining]

It'd be nice if we could afford CCTVs.

But on a serious note, don't confuse laws by some countries with European directives; I don't judge the whole US by the moronic laws of some of its states either.
Particularly, CCTVs on public space are rather rare in many European countries, even if they're common in others.

Re:MacPro vs. Kitchen Mixer (EU=Fire Marshall Bill

[gnasher719]

No it's not, because Apple is talking crap about the regulation.

That may be true. On the other hand, what are the chances that Apple would get a million dollar fine in Italy over this (even if you are correct and these fans are absolutely legal)?

Re:8 cores? Wow!

[FreakyGeeky]

No, matte because of the brushed aluminum.

Re:DysOn fan, bois.

[wagnerrp]

Carbon brush dust? You mean these things aren't running brushless motors?

Not enough Kool-Aid?

[mschaffer]

Apparently, there isn't enough Kool-Aid in the EU to convince them that they were plugging it in wrong.

I hope all EU official Macs

[gelfling]

are promptly discarded and crushed. Any Mac Pros used in any EU official government function should be destroyed ASAP for safety purposes.

Re:Lead-Acid batteries have a 99.2% recycling rate

[iluvcapra]

So basically your argument boils down to: sometimes someone dumps mercury into the environment, therefore no one should ever try to prevent it.

You don't work for the NRA, do you? :)

Re:8 cores? Wow!

[arkane1234]

No, you're thinking of some of the fans over at TigerDirect and Frys Electronics.

Re:Lead-Acid batteries have a 99.2% recycling rate

[labnet]

The automotive environment is absoloutely brutal. It is really terrible and incredibly damaging. Imagine a car out in the Texan summer or northern winter. NiMH batters simply are not as robust as lead acid and they have a higher self discharge. Looking after NiHM batteries is much harder than lead acid ones.

Seriously, lead acid batteries are amazingly well suited to car battery duty and it will be hard to replace them.

Thats simply not true. NiMH batteries have been used in EV's and typically last 7+ years. EV use is much harsher than accessory supply use. Lead Acid batteries typically last 3-4 years. (Although as a side note, our company makes a 'battery zapper' that effectively doubles the life of a lead acid battery in heavy duty use such as trucks and busses by breaking down the high resitance oxides).

Yes it was and you're not looking hard enough.

I'm happy to see paper references.

You are suffering from paranoid delusions.

OK, so I was exceptionally grumpy this morning (sorry). But I do think beurocracy has a way of self perpetuation that has non sensical solutions.

Re:I can't see how the Mac Pro could actually fail

[messymerry]

Yes, and we are absolutely not being micro-managed. Nothing to see here folks, move on. Is government getting bigger, or is it me?

Re:I can't see how the Mac Pro could actually fail

[AC-x]

Yeah who cares about industrial safety eh? And don't get me started on environmental laws, the market should decide everything!

Re:DysOn fan, bois.

[tibit]

No. It costs extra, you know. I think that brushes and commutators have, in this kind of use, greater reliability and lower cost than consumer grade electronics would have. Yeah, electronics are cool, but reliable electronics aren't that simple, and I don't know if Dyson's people have enough experience to deliver something that won't haunt their reputations and egos for a while. BLDC drivers are very easy to make, and very easily turn out to be unreliable crap.

If it was my product, I would have put a BLDC motor and a properly engineered driver for it, but then I know what it takes to design such a thing and test it to ensure I'm not just daydreaming or buying into our own marketing materials :) It may well be it'd add an extra $100 to the price of the vacuum, though -- they have profit margins to maintain.