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Moving the Linux Kernel Console To User-Space
jones_supa sends this quote from Phoronix:
"David Herrmann has provided an update on his ambitious initiative to kill off the Linux kernel console. Herrmann has long been working on making the Linux kernel CONFIG_VT option unnecessary for providing a Linux console by punting it off to user-space. The Linux kernel VT console hasn't been changed much in the past two decades and Herrmann is hoping to see it replaced with a user-space solution he's been developing that would allow for multi-seat support, a hardware-accelerated console, full internalization, and other features."
if something have any purpose, why should we kill it?
Lets not mess with the TTY's they are STILL NEEDED for when things go wrong...
making console depend on layers of complexity in user space, yeah that'll all be there when things go south.... the console is there for emergencies, needs to depend on as little as possibile
Being able to press ctrl-alt-f1 when anyting hangs the X server is why I feel more at home in linux than in windows or OSX.
If it works, don't fix it
So, it's relatively unchanged for "two decades". No one is complaining about it. It doesn't really seem to require improvement as it does what it needs to.
Yea, let's completely gut the system, move it to user space, introduce a metric shit ton of unexpected and undesirable behavior because... Well, Gnome is changing.
This could be an essential part of GNOME 3!
I can;t wait to hear Linus' response to this plan. I expect it to be something like...
How 'bout noh! You crazy Dutch bastard.
a hardware-accelerated console
Why?
CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
Good troll, but the better analogy would be car steering wheels haven't changed in decades. They're all round and don't come in many colors or properly support knee control. So, I want to move them into the back seat so they don't get in the way.
When I read "a hardware-accelerated console" I though that it must be a joke. This whole story. /. headlines...
Bravo! He made it on
(otherwise this kind of idea could have made me feel quite anxious)
Learned something new today - because, until now i was always assuming the console already did run in user space, and was as friendly to print kernel messages.
A glitch a day keeps the bugs away.
The linux kernel console; a lightweight, lightning-fast TEXT console not depending on X or anything else. Who needs it, eh? Are you kidding me? This is an imbecilic idea. If you must have pointless cruft like this, add it IN ADDITION to what has ALWAYS worked perfectly, is super reliable, and super simple. Hopefully set it up so that any mature user can leave this garbage out of his system.
This is just a continuation of the systemd, Gnome 3 type of insanity.
The way things are going, BSD, here I come. An OS by adults, for adults, not a would-be Windows me-too with stupid people gradually one-by-one breaking everything that has made linux great - up until now.
I suggest 2 different consoles, neither of which would need to be there for the kernel to do it's thing of running user space processes. One would be an optional in-the-kernel console complete with an in-the-kernel shell. Trim down it's capability and keep it small. The other would be an optional all-user-space console which can use the many user-space shells we already have, or any other program we want. PTY's definitely need to be pure user-space.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I think it should require Unity and a touchscreen
I await the new console with gesture support. There is one gesture I regularly make to systems that are so broken I have to use the console.
Off-course like the Costa Concordia?
then you aren't really using a "failsafe" console. Even Windows has this with it's "Special Administration Console" / "Emergency Management Services."
When I was building custom kernels for my server I would remove the VT support. Pure serial.
So I don't care. Sounds good from a design standpoint. Should have the least in the kernel possible - simple = robust.
From TFA (to save your delicate eyes from the indignity of RTFA):
Let's look at this one item at a time.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
How about a more informative introduction? All of the concerns raised have been addressed. If only people would avail themselves of a more complete understanding before vehemently opposing any sort of change, the world would be a much better place. If not though, the least you could do is keep quiet if you refuse to inform yourself.
This isn't change for the sake of change; the present VT system is seriously lacking, and has been since its inception.
I have already accepted that the linux I grew up on in the late nineties was killed (sometime in the mid-thousands I think, I was too busy working in .NET at the time to notice until I moved back to linux ~2009) and replaced by a completely opaque box, where everyone chides you for even thinking of recompiling your kernel ever because it will break everything, just choose one of the pre-compiled ones made by your linux masters.
I remember a beautiful simple system where everyone recompiled their kernels, it was simple and expected; and the system's components were independent enough to roll with changes like this, where running console-only didn't make you out to be a weirdo and switching versions of X wouldn't break every piece of your system, rather it would just switch your X.
Recently the linux I have met is a nice windows replacement. It acts like windows, I use it like windows, and the whole thing breaks if I try to change anything under the hood like windows.
Perhaps it's time to go back to FreeBSD, where simplicity was always the purpose, I sure hope in my time away from it (10 years now) it hasn't been won over by the dark side like linux was...
Slashdot: News for Luddites, stuff that scares us.
I used Linux in the late 90s and I really don't miss my younger siblings crashing my Linux machine by switching back and forth from X to console too quickly. I also don't miss having to enter modelines to get my screen working or write my dialup scripts from scratch.
FYI I don't know what distro you are using but I still recompile since precompiled kernels don't come with things like RDP (I'm experimenting). It's even easier than it was in the 90s.
QNX, the real-time message passing operating system now owned by Blackberry, does all "console" handling in user space. They've done that for years. That's because, in the embedded world, you can't assume the target machine has a console, or even a serial port.
When you build a QNX boot image for an embedded system, you can add any programs you want to be available as soon as the system boots. All device drivers are in user space, so that's how the initial set of drivers gets loaded. You can also load applications that way. Having a file system is optional. If necessary, all software can be in a ROM. This allows scaling down to small embedded devices.
A serial console program is available, and is loaded into most systems that have a serial port. There are other options for systems that don't have a serial port, like connecting it to a network.
There's also a system logger. It's common to have the system logger log to some network destination elsewhere, so problems out at Pumping Station 42 are reported to the control center far away.
Linux has tried to emulate this architecture. More drivers are in user space. But in Linux that was an afterthought, and it shows.
poettering should make it part of systemd! problem solved!
There have been a lot of improvements in Linux, but there has also been a lot of dane brammage shoveled in. Most of it is in userspace, but sadly, not all.
Gnome finally exceeded the maximum height BS can be piled and people are switching in droves. I have to agree that the new startup methods are mostly crap. I see no reason to pile in that much poorly documented crap to save 5 seconds at boot time (especially when we're not supposed to need to boot all that often).
I believe GP is referring to the situation in Fedora (perhaps changed now). For a while, it would break fairly badly if you dared to go back even a single sub-minor number on your kernel.
I am definitely NOT fond of grub2's configuration system. They took a simple and sane config and turned it into a 20 headed hydra full of config files and scripts that write config files. It's a very complex solution to a very simple problem and it needs to die. I have similar feelings about the way /dev is handled now. I can live with devices appearing and disappearing, but wit's with the bazillion little cryptic files.
It really IS becoming more opaque like Windows.
I certainly agree about the modelines. Good riddance to them. DDP is a win!