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French Police Unsure Which Twin To Charge In Sexual Assaults
An anonymous reader writes "In a real life Prisoner's Dilemma taking place in the French city of Marseille, twin brothers have been arrested for a string of sexual assaults. While say they are sure that one of them committed the crimes (corroborated by a standard DNA test), police were told that it would cost upwards of €1m euros (£850,000, $1.3m USD) to distinguish between them using DNA evidence."
I have always wondered what would happen when this type of suspect turned up.(suspect having an identical twin)
Every set of identical twins I have known, has deliberately used the 'identity confusion' at some point.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
If AC actually bothered to read the definition of the prisoner's dilemma he would have determined that this is not the same situation. Sounds good, but wrong. You have two individuals, both know who the guilty party is. The best strategy for each to play is to proclaim their innocence.
How exactly is the innocent one proclaiming his innocence obstructing justice?
captcha: unproven
While '1 million euros' is a big scary number(and certainly higher than evidence handling for more prosaic cases), it isn't exactly free to have a bunch of cops go around swabbing at evidence, a judge, some lawyers, a jury, etc. Processing a case, especially a serious criminal case, just isn't inexpensive. Given the existing acceptance of the relatively high cost of justice, it seems strange to wring hands about an abnormally high cost cropping up in an abnormal case.
Even if justice didn't demand it, it seems like it would be trivially sensible to just quietly pay what it costs to get the DNA analyzed properly, if only to deter others from trying to get cute.
Wow, logic fail. I hope I never see you in a jury...
It's the brothers that have the dilemma. Let's say both of them were committing these crimes:
If both stay silent, maybe end up with time served 'cause they can't be sure it which of you it was.
If one brother rats the other out (with convincing proof), he goes free while the other gets sentenced for all the crimes.
If both rat the other out, each gets sentenced for his actual share of the crimes.
Perhaps then bill each of them for half the cost, for not cooperating.
Who says the innocent one isn't cooperating?
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Yes, there is. There's just an upper bound to how much you can get here.
... and that's why those of us in civilised countries consider the US to have a similar legal system to the brutal Sharia law of countries like Afghanistan, Somalia and Mali, among others.
>Perhaps then bill each of them for half the cost, for not cooperating.
Why would you bill both? If they both say they didn't do it, then one IS cooperating and telling the truth.
You want to charge him half a million dollars for being innocent and telling the truth?
That's why there are more prisoners per 100000 citizens than in any other nation, right?
That's why an innocent person never gets executed...well except for the dozens of unfortunate exceptions declared not guilty after being murdered by the state.
Suck it. The US justice and penal system is rotten beyond belief. Just like your political system. Your system does NOT work.
Which to you imprison for rape and which for contempt?
Also, odds are they are both claimign to be innocent.
How is it contempt to claim innocence when you actually are?
You reply is ignorant.
"Another would be to come up with a huge list of possible things that only the criminal would know based on the crimes and quiz them and their whereabouts at the time. Yes, you can lie,..."
Only morons talk to the police.
You don't talk to the police.
Ever!
It can only hurt you.
The justice system shouldn't be haggling over price.
They have suspects they are sure that did it. They have a method of determining which one, but they are dicking around because of cost?
Unacceptable.
Any sympathy for the innocent one? I'd sure hate to be tortured because my sibling committed a crime.
When you are wielding life and death IN MY NAME you better get it fucking right. Unjust imprisonment is rape too. Perhaps we should throw some accusations at you and see what sticks, for the greater good, of course.
Good-bye
Of course, only one of them is a rapist. A ball-peen hammer or garden sheers to the knuckles of the innocent twin evokes quite a bit more sympathy....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
And then judge specifically asks you if you have been coerced or promised anything and you say 'no, your honor' and everyone in the room winks at each other.
Good-bye
That is nonsense:
If both stay silent, maybe end up with time served 'cause they can't be sure it which of you it was.
You can not convict someone on that base.
Supposed I was innocent. Then according to the DNA evidence my twin did it. When he and I stay silent, they still don't know who it was. So the first paragraph of all "constitutional states": innocent until proven otherwise comes to play.
I think you're right. Even in France.
So given T-(rather short)-FA, it seems like the French authorities have two choices. (1) Go to court with what they have, and in all probability both twins will go free. (2) Pony up the money for a proper DNA test and convict the twin responsible.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
What system should replace the USA system of justice that jails more citizens per capita than any other western nation?
Anarchists never rule
But what if the innocent one has no evidence, or no alibi that will stand up to prove his innocence?
Then, you're relying on the guilty one to do the right thing and confess so his brother isn't jailed. He's a rapist, do you really want to rely on his good nature?
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I assume both twins are guilty. With ovemr a dozen cases it looks like always one was commiting a crime and the other one tried to fabricate an alibi.
Doesn't change the solution. If both twins are guilty, a detailed DNA analysis will still be necessary to pin the correct crime to the correct twin. You don't get to be convicted just because you probably committed some of a list of crimes.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
If only one twin is responsible for the rapes, how do we know that that the other knows he did them? Maybe all one knows is that he didn't do them and, of course, the other twin who is responsible would likely make the same claim falsely.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
If both stay silent, maybe end up with time served 'cause they can't be sure it which of you it was.
Rubbish. Without proof both must be freed. There is no shared responsibility or punishment. "Unless someone owns up you all go without supper" isn't a legal principle.
"a witness against himself" thats the part you're not understanding there. its perfectly ok to compel him to be a witness against his twin.
nobody's perfect
If you want to look for the real scum, look for those who would happily put an innocent person to death.
I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
Except the law doesn't work via compromise.
Ever heard of a plea bargain?
Not in France, no.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
That's not justice, that's just about the complete opposite of justice. And it's one aspect of being American that I'm deeply ashamed of. There should be no incentive to plead guilty to a crime you didn't commit. The fact that, not only does it happen, but we actually have a name for it should be deeply concerning to anybody to cares about justice.
I assume both twins are guilty. With ovemr a dozen cases it looks like always one was commiting a crime and the other one tried to fabricate an alibi.
Doesn't change the solution. If both twins are guilty, a detailed DNA analysis will still be necessary to pin the correct crime to the correct twin. You don't get to be convicted just because you probably committed some of a list of crimes.
Do the DNA test and get the right twin. And the other one goes to jail for perjury and harboring a criminal. Seems a win-win here, and will discourage anyone else from trying this tactic.
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