Slashdot Mirror
Can Dell and HP Keep Pace With An Asia-Centric PC World?
MojoKid writes "If you've paid any attention to the PC industry in the past few years, you're aware that things aren't as rosy as they used to be. After decades of annual growth, major manufacturers like HP and Dell have both either floated the idea of exiting the consumer space (HP) or gone private (Dell). Contrast that with steady growth at companies like Asus and Lenovo, and some analysts think the entire PC industry could move to Asia in the next few years. The ironic part of the observation is that in many ways, this has already happened. Asia-Pacific manufacturers are more focused on the consumer electronics market and better able to cope with low margins thanks to rapid adoption and huge potential customer bases. Apple has proven that high margin hardware can be extremely profitable, but none of the PC OEMs have been willing to risk the R&D costs or carry new products for a significant period of time while they adapt designs and improve market share."
What makes you think robots cost less than Chinese labor?
Just offer options that customers want! For instance don't only offer Windows's based notebooks, offer Linux as an option, imporve tech support so people can actually get help. Offer GREAT hardware, not just the cheap crap.
import robots from Asia,...
"You can't get good chili in Taiwan."
No most people in the US who are not enthusiasts will buy a name brand OEM PC from a Best Buy or Staples or maybe even Walmart. People who build their own rigs or even are interested in custom ones are enthusiasts.
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
The summary seems oblivious to the ODM/OEM relationships that have existed for decades. Dell and HP don't *make* anything, they just rebrand things made by Arima, Compal, Uniwill, Quanta, Clevo, etc. Taiwan designs and manufactures everything, Dell and HP simply slap some stickers on them and retail them with the addition of whatever service/support package.
The whole market has belonged to Asia for a generation, and it's not going to change.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
The components have been made in the East for a long time now, particularly Taiwan was famous long before China. For those that missed the memo, the recent HDD crisis was due to floodings in Thailand which is in SE Asia. All sorts of optics and related electronics is heavily centered around Japanese companies like Canon, Nikon and Sony. The OEMs have mostly just been assembling systems from standard parts which is a commodity service.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
So you're ditching the Windows frying pan and jumping into the tablet volcano? Just load a Linux distro. Tablets can't get real work done without add-on peripherals anyway.
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
They certainly don't - for now.
But...
- the total cost of production for automated factories is decreasing rapidly (and will continue to decrease)
- the current cost of borrowing money to invest in capital is relatively low
- the current economic incentives to relocate manufacturing back to western nations is 'somewhat' significant
- the cost of Chinese labor is increasing (and will continue to increase)
The long-term outlook is good for robotic production. I don't know exactly how close we are to the break-even point, but I suspect it will be soon (for variable definitions of soon, of course).
15 years ago, I would've gladly bought made in USA. But now I avoid buying American products as a matter of principal. The way I see it, part of the money I pay gets added to the American military and "intelligence" budget so they can make more wars. Given the choice, I'd buy Chinese, Japanese, or Korean every time. When USA goes back to a peaceful nation and starts cooperating with other countries instead of competing with them, I'll start buying American again.
Up until 2011 Microsoft's strategy was to drive up PC marketshare but controlling the low end. Microsoft was very worried about initiatives like Sun/Oracle's Java Desktop to use thiner client distributed software and lower end machines. Their strategy was to push the price of PCs down low enough so that there weren't meaningful cost saving is just using server based architectures and local program execution was the norm. This is the same reason they focused so heavily on getting control of web technologies and tying them to Internet Explorer / Windows.
With the success of open Web Standards the move towards server based services is happening. This has required a strategy change. Windows 8 systems to work well require more expensive hardware. Microsoft is reintroducing margin back into the business and driving the cost of hardware up. They are willing now to sacrifice the low end so that the total experience on rich clients is much much better than on thinner architectures. Dell and HP sell mainly to corporations. Corporations are still years away from migrating to real Windows 8 hardware as a norm. I think this is short sighted on Dell/HP's part because in 5 years there is likely to be margin in the business. They've now gone through most of the lean years and just as the market is going to go back to being high profit they are exiting.
Once other companies get the experience in making powerful multi paradigm machines it will be hard for these companies to reenter the market. That being said I think Dell isn't existing the PC market, rather I think they going private so they can undergo a restructuring without having to provide regular public scrutiny.
I just modded this funny, then discovered that someone has modded it insightful! LOL.
I mean, Ubuntu is not my choice of distro. I'm currently switching to Mint, and yeah, its going to be a games box, playing mainly older windows games and some linux ones, but meets my needs.
The funny mod point was mainly awarded for the Aliens: Colonial Marines comment though, which is getting totally panned by all the games reviewers. You'd probably be doing yourself a favour by switching to Linux. :-P
Anyway, mod point gone now.
I've built around 150 PCs at my shop thus far and had 1 part failure ever in around 5 years. My computers are absolutely perfect and a 120GB SSD + Pentium G860 + 4GB of RAM system runs around $475, data transfer included. Good luck competing with that. I think people like me are in every town and we're putting HP and Dell out of business. Oh, and if you didn't hear, Best Buy is closing all retail locations over the next 5 years. Yay, we crushed them. Inferior products and services fail in free markets.
In very large public corporations the CEO is concerned with "managing numbers & people".
To lead in a technology arena, you need to really focus on long term strategic leading edge R&D.
I don't see evidence of that at HP & Dell. It is too easy for their CEO to say "We are acquiring our technology by buying companies." Has that worked out well?
But now I avoid buying American products as a matter of principal.
Is that because you don't have enough principal, or because your principal won't let you?
Asia-Pacific manufacturers are more focused on the consumer electronics market and better able to cope with low margins thanks to rapid adoption and huge potential customer bases.
How about:
(1) Less greed,
(2) Being nimble
(3) Proper labor relations and management?
(4) The sense that, "We can beat them at their game?"
(5) Proud citizenry - Those Asians usually patronize Asian
made goods. You ask a Japanese what the best car is.
They'll tell you it's a Toyota! They then buy that!
Where oh where are my mod points when I really need them?
.nosig
Youre going to get modded down, but this is far more common than most Americans realize. Many of my European friends think the same; they refuse to buy american products until such time as the USA starts acting as a responsible member of the world community and stops with the wars and forcing their IP laws onto other countries. At the moment though they cannot ethically buy USA made products (not that there are many of those left....)
Find a new market. I for one would llike to have a truly open box (with coreboot and other free/open shit). And make it hacker-friendly. Hard to brick etc. And cheap. And kittens (or a piece of RMS's beard).
I'll give you 2 (nimble), and 4+5 (local pride), but how does (e.g.) Foxconn exemplify less greed and proper labor relations and management? I guess for certain values of "proper labor relations" you could be right, but probably not what most people think of!
They may be eating them though as the USA has a lot of agricultural exports.
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
What makes you think China can't do the same ? They are probably the one you'll be buying the robots from anyway.
See above.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
So you're ditching the Windows frying pan and jumping into the tablet volcano? Just load a Linux distro. Tablets can't get real work done without add-on peripherals anyway.
I find tablets quite adequate for research: reading Wikipedia and other sources. And the iPad's Safari's "reader" is awesome for just giving you the text of a website (the important stuf) without all the irrelevent shit that web developers/designers insist on using. - it's makes for less stress on the eyes and brain.
But that may not be real work and I'm not a real Scottsmann either.
But if I have to write or crunch numbers a lot - Desktop - better erognomcs. I can't fit it in the john, though.
Laptops, at least for me, are becoming the useless peice of equipment.
Then again, I'm an outlier, don't do real work, and not a real Scottsman.
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-03-31/
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
Use robot shells with Chinese laborers inside?
Profit!
Karnal
In the USA, much larger. Custom PCs are rare. Most consumer PCs are bought mail order from the big manufacturers or store bough mass manufactured models.
You said the magic work so many times: reading. Try to use a tablet for software development, graphic design, creating 3d models, writing a story, creating a presentation, mixing down audio and / or video, or crunching numbers in a spreadsheet. Touchscreens so far are terrible at these things, you'll want a mouse and keyboard (at least a keyboard).
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
Meanwhile France and Germany are along the world's largest weapons exporters.
I vaguely remember a saying about those in glass houses.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
That's dumb and you know it, it's understood that a desktop includes a keyboard at minimum as a component. When they start selling you tablets with no screen let me know.
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
says you! i just threw out like 5 a few months ago since i could now buy better hardware that costs less then it does to run them or buy parts for them.
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
Tt may not be slavery as adam defines, but low wages and externalizing the housing and food of the slaves and paying them pennies is what we are doing now. I have to disagree that the worker is free to do what they want. They are limited by their status, funds and education to say the least. So they are not free to do what they want, they do what they must to survive, just as everyone does today all over the world. You may be free to starve or walk to work each day, but given the option you would not do it if there was another option.
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
This just in, income and ability are limiters!
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
I vaguely remember a saying about those in glass houses
Hmmm... Those living in glass houses shouldn't try nailing their paintings to the walls?
proper labor relations?
you mean that workers are crammed into sweat shops, making $1/hr or less, no benefits or health insurance/care, sleep on cots and don't see their families for a month at a time... Here is where the real difference is...
You seem to be under the assumption that hurting the US economy will be translated into less war-mongering. You don't understand the US.
What will probably happen is:
US economy falters. Gas prices soar. Product prices soar.
Right-wing conservative hawks are elected in response. Half the country gets hopped up on jingoism, (which wouldn't take much).
Far more US military action world-wide.
You are much better off keeping the US fat and happy and waiting for more and more social-leaning leaders to be elected.
I agree and I'm American. See every election cycle we get these Republican assholes whining about how high taxes are on small businesses...so I figure I'll do them a favor and order from overseas then you and your small business won't have to worry about paying any taxes on my purchase. When "job creators" stop crying about taxes I might consider buying locally again, until then Europe and Chinese keep me supplied with all my needs. Business owners act like they're doing me a favor by being in business. No you're providing a commercial service. Since you feel so "oppressed" running your business I'll happily buy from Europe instead.
Start building them here in the USA.
If labor costs are too high, use robots.
No, market them here in the USA. Actually, that's all US companies really seem to do with any product (cars, etc.)
Asia /always/ had a rich and broad ecosystem of the latest / greatest new technology products when it came to computers, personal electronics, cars, etc. All US companies do is pick a few good ones and dumb them down into a handful of brands that can be effectively mass-marketed to the US. As an aside, it's remarkable how little branding means in Asia... products are mostly sold on specs alone. Even Nintendo game prices would fluctuate based on the MB of ROM in the cartridge and the market demand/popularity over time, and not based on how much Nintendo spent on the marketing campaign for the characters and agreed to fix prices with distributors over a long period of time.
So the shift really is that the asian companies are getting better at simplifying their product lines to market directly to the bulk of americans.
As for robotic assembly, maybe that would work for building widgets that never change, but technology products change too fast too afford to keep your robotic workforce up-to-date.
I'm afraid the only viable financial future in the US is in the collecting on and enforcing of intellectual property. Kinda like how Old Imperial Europe collected its money from colonial and trade royalties. But we kinda know how that played out eventually.
When Americans patronize American-made products it is a sign of bigotry.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
...and Linux can't get real work done, ever. Sorry, almost no pro apps of any value run on Linux.
LOL ironically this year Android will have sold become most used OS in the world. Perhaps those "pro apps" you were talking about aren't that pro.
There is no profit in PCs anyway.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
In short term that may be the case. In long term, if US economy kept being hurt, US ability to maintain military equipment and personnel, and its ability to invest in military action would diminish significantly.
Every HP desktop I've bought in the last 10 years contained an ASUS motherboard.
There is no profit in PCs anyway.
Just most of it goes to Microsoft :).
Just the opposite, the little shops like mine sell the custom rigs while the big chains all sell "store brand" Dell and HP units. the reason i put store brand in quotes is often you can't go by model numbers as Best Buy and Walmart will often have "special" models built just for them that are frankly crippled all to hell to save every cent, for example I have pulled the side off a Best Buy Dell and found the PCIe slot to be missing, just the solder points sitting on the board, and other very basic features removed so they can squeeze every cent out of every sale.
On the upside it only takes most customers getting fucked like that once before they start coming to guys like me exclusively and while we can't sell systems quite as low as a "Best Buy special" our systems last past the warranty and can actually be upgraded, most of the big chain OEMs are so crippled what you see is what you get. This is why I wasn't shocked at Intel talking about going to soldered on CPUs (although I will stay with AMD where I can change chips) because for the big chains that would fit, that would be one more place they can save a couple cents per system and maximize profits.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
PC roles that other devices can't currently do:
Can other devices do these things - yes if COST or other limiting factors are not an issue for you (Angry Birds on tablets, or console versions of various FPS titles are not at all comparable to a complex 3D simulation on a dedicated general purpose PC in any way shape or form). For those of us without a silver spoon in his/her mouth - that is not an option.
For most of us - buying a server grade system at $5000+ to do hobby coding isn't worth it - nor is springing for an equivalent cloud based VM to do the same. If it is over $1000 USD over the course of several years, it is too much.
Lumping desktop/server PCs in with laptops is not useful - laptops are not meant to run 24/7 and have automation for doing infrastructure things - like nightly builds, automatic updates for repositories, or other automation (spidering etc). Laptops are made to be mobile, and don't make good servers due to constraints placed on energy consumption and processing power. As for other devices - due to DMCA regulations - there are no legal means of turning them into general purpose devices any longer. That only leaves the PC as the bastion of general purpose computing.
Too many people don't realize what they would be giving up if cheap PCs are not available - they will be limiting the options of small developers (who historically generate more creative output - and the next big thing [e.g. Linux wouldn't exist if Linus didn't have access to a general purpose PC]) while strengthening the strangle hold large companies have over software development (app stores barriers to entry).
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
I think you're lumping everyone into the same boat. I love Linux - but not really happy with the way most of the UIs on top of it are going. I also am not a fan of Windows. I also have Macs - and OSX's UI is close - but I'm not really happy about the iron-fist Apple has over it (e.g. I would prefer to hover my mouse pointer and have the window become active - but not bring to front - like I've done with every Unix/Linux system I've ever used).
I've finally come to the conclusion that the only solution for me is to build my own distribution that has all the best parts that I do like - and some things that I want that no distro has today.
I'm not broken - I'm just hard to satisfy. Of course, that is what leads to innovation. I guess the difference is, don't just sit there and complain about it - do something about it!
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
So when you buy a Thinkpad from Lenovo, 20% of which is owned by the People's Liberation Army, or a smartphone from Huawei, whose CEO used to run Chinese Intelligence, what do you think your money is supporting exactly?
First you don't run professional applications on Android, only consumer stuff. Second, Android is not really Linux and Android applications do not run on pure Linux.
There is no first, there was, an Abusive monopoly...and now its still just a less valuable one, as applications go cross platform. Your arguments are kind of out of date. Applications aren't Microsoft exclusives...and those that are have less value. Microsofts OS is some kind of tablet/destop hybrid nightmare I want nothing to do with...and don't have to, Alternatives are here and more popular, and however you try to spin in the Linux in Android is the same Linux[ish] as the Linux in...Ubuntu.
Not really. The case/layout is some of the least of the technical parts of a computer. All the components inside are the higher tech bits and you find they come from all over. The big daddy, the CPU, is usually from the US. Most of Intel's fabs are in the US, and their design centres are in the US and Israel. Same deal with the motherboard chipset, though their Ireland fab does quite a few of those. Assembly largely depends on where you are, they have packaging facilities in the US, Costa Rica, Vietnam, Malaysia, and China.
The graphics card, if there's a separate one, was fabbed in Taiwan by TSMC, at least for now (both AMD and nVidia re displeased with them) but designed in either the US or Canada since that's where nVidia and AMD respectively have their design centers. All development is done there.
For memory it really runs the gamut. Depending on the company the chips can get fabbed in the US, EU, or Asia and final assembly of the sticks is often done elsewhere. Some places, like Micron, like their own modules, others buy from other companies (Kingston favours Hyynix these days).
Storage it varies. HDDs are all Asia all the time. Final assembly is pretty much Malaysia or China. Components come from various places, motors notably from just one firm in Thailand. For SSDs it again depends on the company. Samsung is all internal and does their own flash, CPU (though it is based on an ARM core) and construction. They do final assembly in Korea, the flash itself is sometimes fabbed in Korea though a lot of it is fabbed in Texas (Samsung has a big plant there). Intel buys their controllers from Sandforce, a US company, but they are fabless so Intel fabs the ones they use. Their flash they make themselves mostly in their Utah but also Singapore (the facilities are co-owned Intel and Micron).
For discrete components, like caps and so on, then Japan is usually the big supplier. It varies some, China is used as well, but Japan is still real, real big in the discrete components game.
Power supplies? That's all China all the time. There are only a couple companies that make them, and they do the design work too. They put out a PSU design, companies then alter the specs to their liking (upgrading components for better reliability or whatnot) and then they are built to order.
LCDs are mostly Korea in terms of panels, though China is in that market too, and nearly all China for final assembly.
Computers are really quite an international production. They use parts form all over, and designs from all over. Remember that the place that produces a part isn't necessarily the place that designed it. This is not only true for fabless companies like nVidia, but even for companies like Intel. They don't do design, fab, packaging, and all that in one facility, they are all over the place.
To say the market belongs to Asia is rather silly. It belongs to the world.
Oh and with regards to Dell? Have a look at the systems you get in the US. Mexico and Brazil are the usual sources for final assembly, not Asia.
I dont think it even occurred to him how many whiteboxes are out there, especially in small businesses. To him its probably 'brand name' or custom uber gaming rig only.
Good-bye
Windows support is my profession and working at a university I get to deal with old systems, and old OSes. It isn't a big deal. I've installed XP, a 12 year old OS, loaded drivers, and patched it to current all from the GUI, and without any real amount of trouble.
MS really does support their OSes quite well and it really isn't a big deal to get them working and up to date, so long as they are still under support (2000 is not patched anymore, for example).
As far as I know, the Chinese military and intelligence has been active only within their own borders and the neighbouring countries. Can you give me an example of the Chinese military flying their personnel halfway across the world to destroy entire countries?
Ubuntu sucks, has always sucked and is not in any way representative of Linux.
"..things aren't as rosy as they used to be. ... the entire PC industry could move to Asia in the next few years."
So a shitload of people who live in places called "third world" only a generation ago are now making their living doing something better than stoop labor in a paddy field, and this is "not as rosy as [it] used to be"?
Come up with a new and better technology if you don't like being undercut by the up-and-comers.
> however you try to spin in the Linux in Android is the same Linux[ish] as the Linux in...Ubuntu.
well that sure sounds like....a tablet/desktop hybrid nightmare!
No that is what you call a modular OS :)
Large Chinese factories are beginning to automate. Enough said.
Humans are great for our versatility, but if you're doing the same exact thing week after week there's a good chance that a robot can do it faster, cheaper, and more consistently.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
> As for robotic assembly, maybe that would work for building widgets that never change, but technology products change too fast too afford to keep your robotic workforce up-to-date.
It depends on what you're doing - for making circuit boards for example pick-and-place machines are the way to go, and there's nothing to change except the component map to make a circuit board for something else.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Given the general low quality from the Asia-specific machines(aside from Japan home-market-only hardware if you want to count them as such), this means attention to hardware quality goes out the window. It will be made with no attention to First World concepts such as quality or performance.
That and expect more Engrish in GB2312 to accompany that junk - since we couldnt pursue a national security exception when this started with IBM's spinoff with their PC division.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
You're kidding, right?
Asians are some of the MOST greedy people around - you've never done business until you've done it in Asia.
They will bulldoze a seller to save a few pennies - paying full price is for chumps. Ever wonder why people use the crappy capacitors that'll fail early? That's why - unless you demand top quality components, they'll sub in the cheapest.
And labor? Really? You think Apple demands that Foxconn mistreats its workers?
Iran is not a democracy. You are being sarcastic, but still, what you suggest cannot happen.
It's pretty easy to avoid American products. By contrast, think of people who don't like China - for whatever reason - wanting to boycott them. Unless they are filthy rich, it's tough to avoid them - to the contrary, it's easier to buy only Chinese products, and I'm not talking about people living in China.
Serious question here. What is the USA doing wrong, and what of that are things that other countries are not doing?
Futurist Traditionalism
US isn't a democracy either, so what's your point? My point is the other post is asking us to not boycott American products while the US itself is boycotting other countries. That's sheer despicable hypocrisy!
what you suggest cannot happen.
That's your choice. Dig yourselves into a bigger hole. Half the world hates you already, keep bullying and acting like giant hypocrites and soon the entire world will hate you.
The funny thing about that is those agricultural exports are largely produced by the equivalent of sweatshop labor i.e. undocumented mexican immigrants working for subsistence wages. There are still a lot of things robots and tractors can't pick and for all that they use mexican peasants. if you've ever seen some of the communities those migrant laborers live in it actually makes a foxconn dorm look pretty sweet.