Cablevision Suing Viacom Over Cable Bundling

aws910 points to an L.A. Times article which explains that "Cablevision (a huge cable network) is suing Viacom (owner of MTV, Nickelodeon, etc), alleging that Viacom is violating U.S. federal anti-trust laws by requiring programming packages to be bundled. If they are victorious, it would be a tiny step closer to 'a la carte cable,' but not much — Cablevision just wants to make their own bundles, and not give the customer the freedom to choose which channels they get. Where can I get my "Kill your TV" bumper sticker?" The thing I care more about buying separately is no-TV internet service, which the major cable companies seem reluctant to admit is even possible.

Comments

reluctant?

[Anonymous Coward]

i've lived in 3 different cable markets and they've offered internet only service for quite some time. they generally charge you a bit more, but it's still offered. same with naked dsl.

Re:reluctant?

[Anonymous Coward]

They offer it, but it's more expensive than if you accept at least basic cable service as well.

Suggesting that they offer cable only is a bit disingenuous as you have to know about it and pay more for less.

Re:reluctant?

[datavirtue]

I haven't watched TV for years; how is this an issue? [Queue up obligatory TV snob link...]

Re:reluctant?

[cpt kangarooski]

Yeah, I had to get their most basic cable package (didn't even include CSPAN!) to get a small discount on Internet service. But recently the rates changed and it would've been more expensive to also have TV service, so I canceled it. I have rabbit ears and almost never watch TV so it's no trouble.

Re:reluctant?

[rwyoder]

i've lived in 3 different cable markets and they've offered internet only service for quite some time. they generally charge you a bit more, but it's still offered. same with naked dsl.

Agreed. I have Internet-only from Comcast *and* it includes native IPv6.
The last time I had cable TV was 2001, and that was only because I worked for AT&T Broadband and it was an employee perk.

Re:reluctant?

[Pubstar]

I have TWC, and my internet charge is the same if I have a bundle with TV or not. Then again, I'm paying for the highest tier connection they offer. It's been that way for at least 2 years now.

Re:reluctant?

[TheGratefulNet]

my younger friends (in their 20's) not only don't have POTS phone service anymore (its all cell phones) but they don't subscribe to tv packages, either. they get a data connection, they download what they want and that's that.

there's a VERY limited time window where traditional phone and cable can still make a come-back.

but my dollars are not on them. they can sell to old guys but I'm betting that sales to the new generation are nearly null.

I'm happy to see the old business models die. its a bit of cosmic justice or pay-back, if you will.

Re:reluctant?

[maxdread]

I'm not sure I can find a single instance where getting TV+Internet is cheaper than just internet.

None of them are reluctant and you can find the option for internet only from each provider I checked.

Re:reluctant?

[CohibaVancouver]

my younger friends (in their 20's) not only don't have POTS phone service anymore (its all cell phones) but they don't subscribe to tv packages, either. they get a data connection, they download what they want and that's that.

Do they pay for the content they download? If not, in 20 years, when those 20 somethings are 40 somethings, who is going to generate the content?

Re:reluctant?

[nabsltd]

my younger friends (in their 20's) not only don't have POTS phone service anymore (its all cell phones) but they don't subscribe to tv packages, either. they get a data connection, they download what they want and that's that.

I keep hearing this sort of thing, and if it were true, the ratings for live shows (sports, award shows, etc.) should be dropping dramatically as those are the shows where downloading isn't really an option.

But the Super Bowl and this year's Golden Globe and Academy Awards telecasts show that not only are audiences not getting smaller, but they are also getting younger.

Re:reluctant?

[MrBippers]

The examples you site are all on broadcast networks available free over the air. I can have a data connection and still get free OTA channels. That's my plan as a late-twenty something. Netflix and hulu will do me just fine.

Re:reluctant?

[Arker]

It's hardly limited to 20 somethings, I am about twice that age and have data only, never in my life paid for tv. I would consider it if they would turn off the ads, but as long as they want me to pay them to deliver my eyeballs to their advertisers it isnt even tempting.

Re:reluctant?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I'm happy to see the old business models die. its a bit of cosmic justice or pay-back, if you will.

If only it were - at 90% gross margin and nearly zero capital investment in the future it is the cablecos turned ISPs that are getting even richer on the new business models.

Re:reluctant?

[Thesis]

My family and I have never cared about watching the Academy Awards, the Emmy Awards, or any other such awards show for many years. A late freind of mine actually won an Emmy (he did audio work), and even he didn't think much of it. He laughed when I asked him about it years ago. He told me that they gave him the thing on stage, then when he went off stage they took it from him, and said it would cost him $300 to keep the statuette. He always laughed about that, but myself and others who knew him did as well, for the thing is made cheap, and his broke. I have always seen the award shows as a self masturbatory act, and he even agreed.

Re:reluctant?

[I'm New Around Here]

They probably use Hulu, Netflix, and other pay-as-you-watch services. At least for the good stuff.

My wife and daughter download shows they like from the free sites. And as far as I can tell, it isn't worth the time except for a few shows they really like that aren't available in the US. My wife likes the British murder mystery shows, and my daughter watches animes. Other than that, when we had no TV service and piggybacked on our neighbor's wifi* (with permission), actually watching American shows was an ordeal of downloading hell.

.
.
*Note: Thank god I previewed this before posting. Instead of typing 'wifi' I accidentally typed 'wife'. Changes the whole meaning of the complaint.

Re:reluctant?

[PNutts]

I have Comcast Internet and basic cable. Basic cable costs me $15/month. If I cancelled it and went with Internet only, my Internet price would go up $15/month. Since the cost is the same for those two options I obviously included basic cable.

Re:reluctant?

[guttentag]

Do they pay for the content they download? If not, in 20 years, when those 20 somethings are 40 somethings, who is going to generate the content?

China will. It's already producing censored news in the U.S. and "giving away" dispatches to struggling stations in Africa. When the local media disappear, China steps in with a friendly, wealthy hand.

Re:reluctant?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure I can find a single instance where getting TV+Internet is cheaper than just internet.

When I had 20/5 mbit FIOS in my apartment last year, it was $79.99 for internet + TV and $84.99 for the bare internet alone. Since the HD box was $5, both options effectively cost the same. If I didn't rent the box (i.e. just used the free verizon SD DTV adapter) then the Internet + TV would indeed be cheaper than the Internet alone!

In a twist from bizzaro land, I now have the Verizon 150/65 at my house and THEY WILL NOT BUNDLE TV with it. If you add TV to the plan, the price jumps by about $70. However if you go down one step in speed (75/25) or slower, then the standard HD TV bundle costs only $10 extra. Go figure!

Re:reluctant?

[guevera]

The telcos are also eager to kill off the POTS network entirely, in hopes it will get them out from under (what's left of) common carrier and universal service regulations. I'm generally skeptical of government, but I'm not sure that what we want is less constraints for AT&T and Verizon. I've personally known drug cartels that are better corporate citizens than those companies.

Re:reluctant?

[ultranova]

Do they pay for the content they download? If not, in 20 years, when those 20 somethings are 40 somethings, who is going to generate the content?

Everyone, if current trends continue. We're already at the point where the best stuff in most franchises are produced by fans, with the "official" content serving mostly as a seed to get things started; and are currently seeing a shift where textual fan-made content is increasingly supplemented by videos, music, etc due to the increasing quality of tools at Joe Average's disposal. Add the entirely original settings (such as Orion's Arm) made possible by the community-building power of the Internet, and it seems likely that in 20 years the so-called Big Content will be both dead and unmourned.

Re:reluctant?

[uvajed_ekil]

my younger friends (in their 20's) not only don't have POTS phone service anymore (its all cell phones) but they don't subscribe to tv packages, either. they get a data connection, they download what they want and that's that.

It isn't just people in their 20's who do this. I'm closer to 40 but I do things similarly. No POTS, no cable, no satellite. I have a cell phone, 12 Mbps DSL, a WDTV streaming media box for Netflix and whatever I download, and a DB4 antenna I built to get local OTA TV. Its been about two and a half years since I kicked the cable habit. It was tough for a couple of months, but I don't miss it one bit anymore. I would have to have a lot more disposable income or they'd have to seriously cut their prices (and be up front about them) before I'd even consider subscribing to cable again.

The only people under 40 I know who have land lines at home have them just for a feeling of security in case of emergency because they have young kids at home, since corded phones don't have batteries to die and still work in power outages. They don't really use their $15/month land lines.

Re:reluctant?

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I asked my cable company if the rate I pay for internet would rise any if I dropped cable TV. The answer was no, I'd still pay $32 for internet (50mbit/10mbit) just like I currently do.

I'm wanting to do it, but other people in the house still watch news channels. (I've moved them all over to sickbeard/couchpotato combined with xbmc, which they like much better. I wouldn't have done it if my cable provider wasn't CCI flagging every single channel.) So for now I am on the minimum tier possible for news channels in digital, which after the cable cards runs me $35 a month. Total bill is about $68 a month after FCC fees. Not bad considering that through them, I have access to all TV content I want, including full blu-ray releases before they even hit store shelves.

Re:reluctant?

[cpt kangarooski]

Yeah, I'm saving about a dollar a month, but I suppose that's better than giving them a dollar a month for no good reason. (Haven't even turned the tv on in over half a year)

Re:reluctant?

[SuricouRaven]

Virgin in the UK, when I signed up, but that was a special case: Introductory half-price offer on the bundle. Once the offer period runs out (6 months, IIRC) the price doubles.

Re:reluctant?

[peragrin]

Why would ratings drop? New customers don't get counted in ratings sweeps it is all averages anyways.

Remember They still count you if your TV is off but your cable box is on(like is generally required for DVR's to function). So while my TV hasn't been on in 2 days My cable box has been recording a show.(yea just one there is only one Between Wedensday and Saturday that I care enough to keep up with).

The only reason I have a full cable package at all is because I wanted ONE station that wasn't in the smaller bundles. That for just two programs. I am considering dropping it all together and just use Netflix all the time.

Re:reluctant?

[shentino]

I think GP meant that you get a bundle discount if you get something with the internet.

In my case you just get charged a premium if you go without phone or cable.

Re:reluctant?

[rjr162]

Comcast charges the same.

I have their 50/10 servic which had a special of like $54/month or something and goes to $65/month after 6 months or so. When I called to place the order, the person told me if I wanted I could bundle with the basic cable for no extra cost (after which I spent 5 minutes asking in various forms to ensure it wouldnt cost any extra at any point etc)

So in the end comcast, at least here charges the same for internet alone as it does with internet + basic tv (the tuner box doesnt have a monthly fee or anything either).

Re:reluctant?

[RicktheBrick]

They will call you and tell you that you can get a lot more for less money than you are now paying. Of course that is only for the first year and the second year will only be a little bit more than you are paying now. The third year you will be paying a lot more than you are paying now. They hope you will become dependent on those extra services by then and will not do anything about it. For the same price charter would have charged me, I can get magic jack for my land line, netflix and hulu plus for tv, and a cell phone and internet from them. Of course I now pay almost double what they advertise for the internet because they are the only ones that can provide a fast enough internet speed in my area.

Re:reluctant?

[powerlinekid]

Netflix, hulu, amazon video, itunes, history channel .com, comedy central .com, etc.

There are plenty of ways to get content legally for prices that are tiny compared to what the cable companies or direct tv offer. I only have an internet package and then pay for netflix and occasionally use the free hulu. My girlfriend has itunes and amazon video and we don't miss tv.

People have no problem paying for content; It is the extra $50 to $100 a month plus commercials that many don't see worth whatever extra value they provide over the above services.

Re:reluctant?

[AmiMoJo]

I don't always pay, but not by choice. HBO won't take my money.

Re:reluctant?

[pepty]

Would you be willing to accept that "expensive culture that requires lots of full time work by professionals" won't persist without a way to monetize it?

I realize people make TV shows for free. But they don't make five seasons of "The Wire" for free. They don't make "Game of Thrones" for free. At the other end of the budget scale they don't make "Archer" for free either.

My favorite authors might still be writing books if no one was buying them, but they would be writing them a lot less frequently as a hobby in their spare time while they worked a normal day job.

Re:reluctant?

[pepty]

If greedy gloom-n-doom corporations threatening to provide less content if they don't get at least a billion dollars a week in ad revenue make good their threat, that'll just mean more opportunities for indie writers and producers.

Who is going to pay the indie writers and producers (and cameramen, gaffers, runners, editors, graphic artists, special effects artists, caterers, electricians, and grips) if there is no revenue?

What's your favorite online source for news? What would it look like if all of the content that was paid for via ad revenue was removed? And no fair counting someone scraping or blogging their version of a story a reporter was paid to generate as not being paid for by ad revenue.

Re:reluctant?

[Areyoukiddingme]

Add the entirely original settings (such as Orion's Arm)

Er, not exactly entirely original. Orion's Arm was originally heavily derivative of Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, going so far as to include references to Blight, Zones of Thought, and Skroderiders. Skroderiders and the Zones of Thought were discarded early on, but the concept of a Blight is still present in Orion's Arm and is still substantially similar to Vernor Vinge's idea. The history page on the Orion's Arm site does acknowledge Vernor Vinge and A Fire Upon the Deep by name, though it glosses over the initial heavy dependence and derivative nature of the site.

These days, I guess you can call Orion's Arm original. It's as original as anything else, which is to say, it owes debts to numerous other sources. Everything humanity does is a derivative work, somewhere along the way. But we'll go on pretending that copyright restrictions make any sense...

A point about "expensive culture" made later in this thread is underlined by Orion's Arm. While the writing is sometimes quite good, the editing is below par, even by today's crappy editing standards, and the art ranges from acceptable to absolutely terrible. Modern civilization is rich enough to generate numerous quality amateur novelists, but not yet rich enough to generate numerous quality amateur illustrators, let alone the small army of varied talents it takes to create a modern sci fi film. Even open source animated films like Big Buck Bunny and Sintel were created with funding.

Vernor Vinge has put a great deal of thought into the funding problem, and the result was incorporated into Rainbows End. His notion was that projects like Orion's Arm could become higher quality if a system of basically frictionless true microtransactions is overlaid. Microtransactions on the order of ten thousandths or hundred thousandths of a cent, established by standard contracts and paid automatically on every interaction with the media. Of course, establishing such a system requires a couple of major cultural and legal shifts, especially explicit acknowledgement in law of the derivative nature of human culture, plus a willingness of everyone participating in it to automatically pay for and be paid for usage of it, in all contexts. Notions as fanciful as anything in A Fire Upon the Deep, given the current copyright regime.

Re:reluctant?

[ubrgeek]

It sucks, but it's not surprising: "Hey potential advertiser, I have 5 million people able to watch cable TV, even if they don't want to" is a lot more attractive to Potential Advertiser then, "Hey potential advertiser, I have 5 million Internet users who don't give a crap about what's on TV."

Re:reluctant?

[unitron]

I don't always pay, but not by choice. HBO won't take my money.

Does your money have cooties? Is it Nazi war loot? Businesses usually like money, and they usually prefer more money to less money. What do they find so offputting about yours?

Re:reluctant?

[unitron]

... So while my TV hasn't been on in 2 days My cable box has been recording a show.(yea just one there is only one Between Wedensday and Saturday that I care enough to keep up with)....

Of course.

The others you care about will all be scheduled at the same time on the same night on several different channels.

Re:reluctant?

[CodeHxr]

This. I can see using ads to monitize free/OTA programming, but I refuse to pay to watch ads, which is why Hulu doesn't get our money either.

Re:reluctant?

[Kelsen]

I haven't watched TV for years; how is this an issue? [Queue up obligatory TV snob link...]

Nah; you're not a snob; you're just stupid. Because you're stupid, I'll answer the question. See if you can get a grown-up to explain it to you.

It's an issue because many people watch television, for many reasons. Those people are talking about it in this thread. The fact that you can't afford television, or don't watch it for some other reason, is possibly interesting to you, but not particularly germane to the subject. No doubt there are a number of people across the world who do not watch TV, many of them for perhaps the same reason as you. Their declarations would of course also be meaningless -- but they weren't stupid enough to fail to realize it. In this thread, making such a statement is not meaningful to the topic.

It is in fact, demonstrably a failure, just as telling everyone you touched yourself inappropriately this morning. While it might be interesting to you, it's not related to the topic.

Hope this helps.

Dave Kelsen
--
"I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that." -- Tom Lehrer

Re:reluctant?

[CohibaVancouver]

Would you be willing to accept that "expensive culture that requires lots of full time work by professionals" won't persist without a way to monetize it?

Of course they won't. This is Slashdot. Everyone here seems to think a season of Portlandia could easily be shot, edited and mixed by a couple of dedicated hipsters over a long weekend using their Canon EOS and a Macbook.

Re:reluctant?

[mattack2]

Netflix, hulu, amazon video, itunes, history channel .com, comedy central .com, etc.
â¦..
People have no problem paying for content; It is the extra $50 to $100 a month plus commercials that many don't see worth whatever extra value they provide over the above services.

That's ironic, since hulu and the web pages you mention have commercials that are WORSE than on cable, since you can't skip them with a DVR. (Even if you do site blocking, don't you still have to WAIT 30 seconds?)

Even though I watch mostly stuff from rebroadcast versions of OTA channels, I prefer having a DVR where I can skip the commercials.

Would I prefer *instead* to have new shows absolutely on demand (with less often expiring and/or long lead times to expiration) WITHOUT commercials? Yes, but with the current "pay per episode" methods, I'd pay MORE than I pay for cable currently.

Re:reluctant?

[mattack2]

Remember They still count you if your TV is off but your cable box is on(like is generally required for DVR's to function).

It sounds like you're talking about 'older' DVRs, e.g. using an IR blaster. Nowadays, you just get a DVR that has a cable card in it (which the cable company ones do, or a TiVo, or the cable card boxes that work with Windows Media Center), and it *is* the cable box. The latter ones work better than cable company DVRs, and can even be _cheaper_ than the cable company one since you pay for only the cable card.

Re:reluctant?

[mattack2]

Think of it as paying for the shows. I use a DVR to avoid most ads (yes, there is product placement, but as someone who hates regular commercials, product placement doesn't bug me).

Re:reluctant?

[Arker]

Thanks, but no. I'll think of it as paying entirely too high a price for the shows (which are almost all utter crap to begin with) and I will continue to decline the offer. If I cared that much about TV, I could and would rig a DVR using free feeds. Frankly, I have better things to do with my time than watch product placements.

This is a real problem.

[olsmeister]

Do you have any idea how many people pay for ESPN (the most expensive cable channel) that never watch ESPN? Why? (Hint: It's owned by Disney.)

Re:This is a real problem.

[thejynxed]

They are perfectly happy to allow you to rent ESPN separately of Disney Channel. What they won't do, is rent you Disney Channel without also renting ESPN, and that is where they get you, if you're a sports-loving parent of young children.

Re:This is a real problem.

[Arker]

And what if you are a parent of young children who has no interest whatsoever in watching grown men run up and down a field fighting over a ball like little children?

Re:This is a real problem.

[dgatwood]

They are perfectly happy to allow you to rent ESPN separately of Disney Channel. What they won't do, is rent you Disney Channel without also renting ESPN, and that is where they get you, if you're a sports-loving parent of young children.

And by that, I assume you meant "non-sports-loving".

Of course, you know the reason for that, right? If the sports lovers actually had to pay the cost of ESPN on their own, most of them would balk at the price. So they subsidize the heck out of ESPN by making it hard to avoid even if you don't watch it. That way everybody who doesn't watch it ends up paying most of its actual cost (which is staggering, in large part because of the high price that the major sports leagues charge them per viewer).

Want to fix the problem in a hurry? Convince everyone you know to all watch every major sports event for a year. Make it so that the sports networks' ratings go through the roof. When the sports leagues crank up the amount they charge ESPN through the roof, ESPN will then demand $200 per customer, which the cable companies will be forced to pass on. Then cancel your cable. If enough people did this, the system would go Hindenburg.

Re:This is a real problem.

[dgatwood]

What you're failing to account for is the difference in magnitude. Sports are subsidized by non-sports viewers far more than any other network.

By most estimates I've seen, only about a quarter of all cable households watch ESPN and other sports networks, give or take. And sports programming eats, on average, about half of a typical cable bill. So if only people who care about sports paid for it, the cost of the sports networks would increase by a factor of four, and even if they dropped every channel but sports, their cable bills would double.

And the people who dropped the sports networks? Their cable bills would fall in half.

This, of course, assumes that nobody dropped any other channels, mind you. At that point, most people are not likely to nickel-and-dime the buck-and-under channels (which is pretty much all of the non-sports channels). It's the channels that cost five bucks and up that are going to get slashed. So the ESPNs would be tossed aside en masse, and most of the smaller channels could then ask for more money, and programming quality would improve.

But even if I'm wrong about that—even if everyone decided that they were going to limit themselves to the channels that they actually watch and the price per channel went up by a factor of five, ten, even twenty—the average person would subscribe to fewer channels, so the average person would still end up paying less. (And getting less, to be fair, but you don't really watch the Soap Network, do you?)

The less-popular channels would cost more, and the more-popular channels would cost less. And the less-popular channels would then have greater incentive to bring in revenue, which would lead to greater competition, and hopefully, better programming. In practice, it would probably also lead to fewer networks, but better programming at each of them.

Re:This is a real problem.

[dgatwood]

Oh, and I forgot to mention the best part. The networks would be beholden to their subscribers. Had Sci-Fi Channel been bundled a la carte five years ago, we would not have SyFy with professional wrestling. Sure, it would cost more, but it would be an actual channel that ate and breathed science fiction. And if it deviated from that too far, people would drop the channel, and they'd either clean up their act or wither on the vine and eventually be replaced by someone who would.

You see, that's the biggest problem with the current system. There's only token competition when you have an oligopoly and things are bundled as they are. As far as NBCUniversal is concerned, SyFy is a transponder, and it is costing them money to keep it lit. Therefore, their goal is to maximize the amount of ad revenue, which means maximizing the number of eyes. You're the product. They don't care if science fiction viewers keep watching the channel because everybody gets the channel, so there's no incentive to cater to any particular audience. If they can get ten times as many viewers by showing pictures of fish swimming in an aquarium, they'll do it, because that's the most profitable way to run the network.

With a la carte pricing, at least to some degree, you're the customer. You're also a product that they can sell to the advertisers, of course, but because you're in full control over whether your eyes are even available as an asset to sell, you have much more say in the content decisions. People who don't watch science fiction are unlikely to subscribe to SyFy, which means those people who watch professional wrestling won't even be available as potential eyes to sell to advertisers. So if they air that sort of programming, it gets no viewers, and the advertisers say, "Why are we paying you again?" And if enough people get annoyed at the dumbing down of the network, they start to lose subscribers, at which point the advertisers say, "Why are we paying you so much?" Thus, you, the subscriber, get to cast an actual vote, albeit somewhat indirectly.

It's not quite as good as purely subscription-supported TV in that regard, mind you, but it is a lot better than the current situation, where the networks are bundled together and everybody gets all of them, so the MBA studio execs see them as interchangeable transponders instead of actual stations with an actual voice, an actual vision, and an actual mission.

Re:This is a real problem.

[shentino]

That sounds like a tying arrangement.

Re:This is a real problem.

[rjr162]

Wait, you're saying channels like discovery would havd actual science stuff instead the amish mafia? And history channel would have history stuff instead of some of the goofy ass shows they have?

And Tru tv.. well.. hell I'm not sure they could exist. They'd have to have "True" shows to match their name and with all the shows they have "lizzard lick towing, that Repo show with the bald headed douche, etc etc" they'd have to wipe ths slate clean and start *all* over.....

Zappa, 1973.

[msauve]

Well, I am the slime from your video
Oozin along on your livinroom floor

I am the slime from your video
Cant stop the slime, people, lookit me go

Re:Zappa, 1973.

[mill3d]

I am gross and perverted, obsessed and deranged

I've existed for years but very little has changed

I'm the tool of the government and industry too

For I'm destined to rule and regulate you

I may be vile and pernicious, but you can't look away

I make you think I'm delicious with the stuff that I say

I am the best you can get, have you guessed me , yet?

Well I'm the slime oozing out of your TV set!

You will obey me while I lead you and eat the garbage that I feed you

Until the day that we don't need you, don't got for help, no one will heed you

Your mind is totally controlled, it has been stuffed into my mold

And you will do as you are told until the rights to you are sold...

What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[mark-t]

Instead of getting an entire channel, what if you just subscribed to individual programs, delivered to your set-top box each week, waiting for you to watch them at your convenience?

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[mark-t]

It's not really a reduction when you're not watching anything else anyways.

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[citizenr]

YT wants to do something like this. But instead of talking single cents per subscription they are talking dollars. It would cost me more to subscribe to 20 YT paid channels than I pay for 200 TV channels.

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[cffrost]

Instead of getting an entire channel, what if you just subscribed to individual programs, delivered to your set-top box each week, waiting for you to watch them at your convenience?

The two BitTorrent clients I've used (Vuze and uTorrent) both support this, provided "set-top box" means computer, or something like one of the combination media-player/NAS units Western Digital offers.

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[Qzukk]

Ohhh, you didn't want to pay for the parts you weren't watching? Well, that'll be another $120/mo in processing fees.

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[farnz]

That comparison misses the point, though - for most people, the goal isn't to have as many channels available as possible, it's to have something to watch whenever you want to watch TV. I currently have around 100 TV channels (all free to air), but I'm not guaranteed to find something I want to watch when I choose to watch TV.

I used to pay to get around 300 channels, but stopped when I realised that I still wasn't able to find something I wanted to watch whenever I turned on the TV set, and that when I did find channels I wanted to watch, they tended to be from the free to air set anyway.

A simple question illustrates the point - would you prefer 5,000 nearly identical home shopping channels for the same money you pay now, or would you prefer your existing TV package? I suspect you'd find that most people would prefer your current TV package, with its mere 200 channels, to a package of 5,000 channels that they're mostly not interested in.

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[rjr162]

You can. Its called services like Vudu which (shortly after the episode first airs typically) has the episode (s) you want available to be streamed or downloaded to a device which supports Vudu. But each episode will run you typically 99 cents to $1.99
I guess if you dont watch much tv, this would be a good way to do it, but if you watch even just 25 episodes at the $1.99 price a month, you could have dish network with like 150 to 200 channels (or for around $80 you could have the hopper/joey with 250 channels + ondemand and dvr like us which gives you pretty much the capabilities of Vudu plus the dvr)

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[mark-t]

Not exactly a reasonable comparison... since in such a case the content being downloaded would probably be infringing on copyright.

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[pepty]

The subscription model I want: I'll pay them $1 per hour of original programming, and somewhat less for repeats. They pay me $1 per hour of commercials that I'm forced to watch during those shows. That works out to about 40 - 75 cents per hour for them.

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[s0nicfreak]

You mean like Netflix, Hulu, Crunchyroll, and Amazon Video On Demand, sent to your Roku or other internet streaming set top box?

Re:What about program-specific a-la-carte?

[tlhIngan]

Instead of getting an entire channel, what if you just subscribed to individual programs, delivered to your set-top box each week, waiting for you to watch them at your convenience?

Already exists for a lot of shows. Check out iTunes and other places - most often "subscription passes" to TV shows and usually have it day of or the day after at a couple of bucks per show.

If it's network TV, it's often even better, as it's often either on Hulu or the website of the network (e.g., CBS), especially since they're usually FREE (with ads). They're day after service but it's not bad for the price you pay (FREE!). Granted you don't have much in the way of timeshifting, but less ads (though more repetitive...) and the price is definitely good.

Channel Guides

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd really appreciate it if my channel guide only contained information pertaining to the channels I actually receive with my package.

I might be less likely to switch the set off in disgust and watch youtube videos instead. Or head on over to thepiratebay.se when I see the neat stuff that's playing on channels that aren't in the package I bought.

Re:Channel Guides

[Sinryc]

Most set top boxes have that somewhere in the settings.

Re:Channel Guides

[rjr162]

Dish boxes do that (well the hopper for sure)

Re:Channel Guides

[bornagainpenguin]

Most set top boxes have that somewhere in the settings.

Yeah, and then once you've hidden the junk channels (seriously how many home shopping channels are there? who the hell watches\buys this crap??) the company takes great pleasure in moving the channels around, making you have to head back into the settings and figure out which numbers now need to be unblocked...

Gets especially painful at my Dad's house because he expects me to fix it for him and doesn't seem to understand why channels disappear from one set top box to the other, despite me explaining to him repeatedly that he has the HD package, but the set top box in his bedroom is still his old non-HD receiver, so different channels are available on different numbers depending on whether or not the channel is broadcast in HD. At the time he had an old SDTV in the bedroom, so I understand not wanting to pay more for definition he couldn't see, but he has a new HDTV in there now and still doesn't get that he's still using the SD receiver.

So yeah, while technically it's possible to just hide unused channels in practice it turns into a game of catch the wandering channel.

From a Legal Standpoint

[Mythosopher]

I'm not sure how this would be any different from the recent SCOTUS decision Brantley v. NBC Universal, 675 F.3d 1192 (2012). The Court held that selling high demand and low demand channels together in packages to consumers did not injure competition and therefore violate US antitrust law.

Re:From a Legal Standpoint

[ohnocitizen]

This makes sense. Additionally, since their argument seems to be "its illegal when they do it, but when we do it based on our own metrics of what consumers like it will be legal". That strikes me as a weak position to argue from.

Re:From a Legal Standpoint

[dgatwood]

Maybe they took the time to actually present real evidence of harm this time. :-)

In my quick skim of the subject, it didn't look like the courts held much of anything beyond that the people bringing the case failed to provide enough evidence for it to actually go to trial.

That is to say that they did not hold that those things did not injure competition, but rather that those things did not inherently injure competition, and that without further evidence to support the claim of injury, the prosecution presented insufficient grounds for the suit to proceed.

Did I miss a subsequent, more solid decision on the subject?

Don't want to be a dumb pipe...

[ducomputergeek]

That's why you see the deals like HBO GO where you have to be a subscriber to access. Even Hulu has gone this route to appease the media interest and now you have Comcast, a provider, also in the content business.

At the same time Netflix is getting into the content business.

The last thing the cable companies want to happen is for HBO to realize that, "Hey people might pay us $15 a month to watch HBO online without the cable fee."

Honestly, if MLB.tv didn't blackout the local games both me and my father would ditch cable TV.

Re:Don't want to be a dumb pipe...

[rachit]

The last thing the cable companies want to happen is for HBO to realize that, "Hey people might pay us $15 a month to watch HBO online without the cable fee."

HBO probably already realizes that. But of course they are owned by Time Warner...

Re:Don't want to be a dumb pipe...

[rhsanborn]

HBO knows that people would pay them directly. HBO has said as much. HBO also knows that it has the largest sales force in the country and it doesn't have to pay them. Every cable and satellite provider is selling HBO. If HBO decided to start selling on it's own, those cable and satellite partners wouldn't have the same incentive to keep pushing HBO in their packages. HBO has decided they get more money from the current arrangement.

Totally Ironic

[hemo_jr]

Since that is how they sell their own bundles to their customers.

Re:Totally Ironic

[SeaFox]

It's not ironic. The very reason they bundle the channels is because they have to buy them in bundles as well.

What would the alternative be? Offer people a la carte and have to pay for a bunch of channels nobody wants to subscribe to? They'd have to charge a higher costs for the channels people do subscribe to in order to pay the bundled station pricing from the providers. Then they'd simply look like they were offering less TV for more money. Their competitors would trumpet how few stations you get for $X. Of course, the rub would be that the 50 extra channels you got with the competition are ones you don't want to see anyway. In TV it's about quantity, not quality. Which is how we got in this mess anyway -- people bragging about how many channels they have and not caring at all that most of the time on those new channels was reruns and just plain bad shows.

Re:Totally Ironic

[AK Marc]

It's simple math. You charge the amount per channel based on subscription to that channel and the "cost" allocated to that bundle by the number of subscribers. You can a la carte price a bundle. People do it all the time in bakeries, where the "bakery" buys packages of products and then sells them on. They get 3 peach, 3 blueberry, 3 apple, 3 chocolate, and sell them one at a time to people who come in. Maybe the chocolate is $0.50 more than the apple, and the blueberry is $0.10 cheaper than the apple because of demand for them. But they make their money back, and hopefully a little profit. It's not hard, it just carries some risk, and why risk anything when you can get the guarantee? We get screwed all the time because the big names are risk averse.

Cablevision

[game kid]

When Verizon brought its FiOS TV service to Massapequa Park, NY, Cablevision brought lawyers.

When plans were getting drawn for a West Side Stadium that would compete with its (now-spun-off) Madison Square Garden, they brought astroturf ads.

When our place got FiOS, they began to bring salesmen.

When they leave, unsuccessful and late to the table of real competition, and bested by a once-monopoly they apparently sought to outdo, they bring me joy.

(Though to be fair, when they show their Michael Bolton ad, it brings me to the TV.)

Re:Cablevision

[unitron]

...Though to be fair, when they show their Michael Bolton ad, it brings me to the TV.)

Does this ad perchance feature Percy Sledge reaching down Bolton's throat and ripping his lungs out?

That would be TV worth paying for.

Damned monopolistss

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple: prohibit content providers from also selling internet access. Socialize the Internet. There's no other clean choice. Treat it as the public utility that it is and regulate it as such.

not most cable systems. Directv has that (not 100%

[Joe_Dragon]

not most cable systems. Directv has that (it does not work 100%) and they channel maps are much better then cable.

Just don't buy it

[wakeboarder]

Why put up with cable companies and their fees, just stream or buy it later. This strategy only works if you have patience and don't have to be 'in the loop' and talk about it at work or elsewhere. This is a strategy I prefer. There are much better things to do than watch TV.

So....

[WindBourne]

A monopoly that is screwing its customers is mad that a somewhat competitive group is able to make it include ALL of its stuff.

Makes sense to me.

as opposed to Comcast owning NBCUniversal?

[FlutterVertigo(gmail]

How many channels does NBCUniversal have? (besides lots) They now own the origin & the pipe.

No-TV internet not available???

[uvajed_ekil]

Time Warner has offered internet service without a TV package in my area for at least ten years. Is this really not the norm? AT&T was reluctant to offer "naked" DSL, first telling customers it wasn't possible, then charging higher prices, but it has been a while since they started selling it. I have the fake version of AT&T's Uverse at home now (12 Mbps DSL, no TV or anything much faster available), and they no longer charge a higher price to non-phone customers.

I'm not sure which is worse here and now: the lack of truly high speed internet or the fact that there are exactly two providers to choose from. But I think the latter problem might be a cause of the former.

Pot calling kettel black.

[ralphaostrander]

I hate paying for crappy stations I don't watch also, what are you going to do for me. If I only want one damn station you should me happy to give me one. Not ass rape me for cash, now you know why I am not a TV customer. And I am being ass raped for the price of you damn bandwidth while we are on the subject. Feel that ass hurt now you know how every customer of yours feels.

There needs to be a class action lawsuit

[Cutting_Crew]

Question To Providers: "Why can't I just pay for each individual program that i want to watch or opt to buy a seasonal package of shows/channels from you at a discounted price?
Providers: Well see the channels that we subsidize wouldn't last and go under.
Question to Providers: Why is that my problem?
Providers: ........

Re:There needs to be a class action lawsuit

[DNS-and-BIND]

Easy answer: racism.

Where my Mom lives, they had an 'election' to determine which channels to eliminate and which to add. Something like 95% of households said to drop BET, the Black Entertainment Channel. This is racist on its face and any attempt to deny it is also racist. BET cannot exist without packages.

Re:There needs to be a class action lawsuit

[Areyoukiddingme]

BET cannot exist without packages in your area

Fixed that for you.

In my area, BET could do just fine without any packages at all. This has absolutely nothing to do with racism, and you're an idiot to think it does.

Black culture is DIFFERENT from white culture. Blacks and a small percentage of other races like black culture and will watch a TV channel dedicated to it. Every other channel is more or less dedicated to white culture. Most whites watch channels dedicated to white culture. Many asians and blacks also watch channels dedicated to white culture. Why? Because they're minorities embedded in and surrounded by a culture much larger than their own. People forget that the US population is only 13% black and only 4% asian.

It's also less than 1% american indian, and there are no national channels at all devoted to american indian culture. Is that racist too? You apparently think so, but you're wrong. It just means they're a tiny market. So tiny that the cost of generating content devoted to their culture is too high to be profitable, given the size of the audience. There are no national channels devoted to asian culture either. Is that racist? No. It just means being 4% of the population is still too small to constitute a viable market. In local markets where the percentage is higher, like in California, there are local channels dedicated to asian culture. Is that racist against the local whites? No. It's serving a market.

There is no racism in observing that there are cultural differences between races. That's plain fact. What's racist is claiming that one or the other is better than the rest without evidence. You would do well to remember that.

Re:There needs to be a class action lawsuit

[DNS-and-BIND]

"racist against the local whites"? You can't be racist *against* whites. You don't even know what racism is. Go take some college courses in racism and get some goddamn education.

A la carte wouldn't save you anything

[91degrees]

So, you pay $30 a month for a set of channels and watch 5 of them, with a couple you might occasionally have a look at.

Instead there's an a la carte option. Now, the cable company knows that you're willing to pay $30 a month for those 5 channels. Why would they not simply charge you $6 each?

Re:A la carte wouldn't save you anything

[tlhIngan]

So, you pay $30 a month for a set of channels and watch 5 of them, with a couple you might occasionally have a look at.

Instead there's an a la carte option. Now, the cable company knows that you're willing to pay $30 a month for those 5 channels. Why would they not simply charge you $6 each?

Not only that, but all the lesser channels are starting to get some of the "prime" programming now. If you carefully observe what the stations are doing, they're evolving for the a la carte option - putting top ranked shows across the entire network, so you can't buy just one, but you have to buy them all. Maybe after a year the last season will make its way to the other channels with ads to buy the original channel, but the stations are evolving their programming.

What was once all consolidated on one main channel and 2-3 weaker channels often showing reruns and older material has devolved into all channels showing top-tier stuff and lowly reruns. Now you're not just buying History Channel, but History and H2, with little overlap in programming.

Re:A la carte wouldn't save you anything

[N!k0N]

but that's more because History doesn't have enough programming slots for cramming shitty reruns of room-temperature IQ programming on one channel

For example, Monday (04 March) ... 00:00 to 11:59 EDT, per tv guide website. Times are the start time of the show. All are repeats unless otherwise noted.

History:
The Bible (2h - 00)
Vikings(1h - 2,3,)
Infomercials (0.5h -4-5.30 inclusive)
Classroom (1h - 6)
The Real West (1h - 7)
American Pickers (0.5 & 1h - 08-19.30 inclusive)
Pawn Stars (0.5h - 20,20.30)
American Pickers (1h - 21, new episode)
Pawn Stars (0.5h - 22,22.30, new episodes)
Vikings(1h - 2,3,)


H2:
Miracle Rising: South Africa (2h - 00)
Stories From the Road to Freedom (2h - 02)
Declassified (1h - 03)
Infomercials (0.5h - 04-06.30)
Secret Passages (1h - 07)
Modern Marvels (1h - 08, 09)
Alaska: Dangerous Territory (2h, 10)
Modern Marvels (1h, 12-15)
Alaska: Dangerous Territory (2h, 16)
Modern Marvels (1h, 17-23)

Granted, Monday night is the "Modern Marvels Marathon" night on H2, so it might not be a fair comparison -- sure, it glosses over _a lot_ of things (unfortunate), but it's not just the drivel of "[item] could be worth a lot of money." or "Why the hell is this guy showing us all the stuff HE WON'T SELL!?". Tuesday is devoted to UFO Hunters/Ancient Aliens/etc.

Same goes for "Science" and "Discovery" and "The Learning Channel" ... It's unfortunate how so few of their shows now care about "Science", "Discovery", or "Learning" (ignoring the fact that TLC stopped being "The Learning Channel" ~15 years ago) -- hell, with the exception of "Blue Planet" (et. al.), and the Neil Armstrong specials I'm hard pressed to say _any_ of their programming follows in the title of the channel. Only one that still seems to follow their station name in programming choices is "Animal Planet" (and even there, it's probably just as much "reality" crap as the other stations).

For the longest time

[kilodelta]

I had nothing BUT a net connection from the cable company. I re-upped TV a couple years ago but every day I question why I'm spending an $154 a month for cable and net service when I can get 100mpbs for $100 a month and all you can eat video.

Cable Internet without TV is available in Canada

[nebular]

Funny, just north of the Border I can get Cable internet without TV, even starting to get competition for the service in place. Still mainly overpriced, but it seems for once we're better than the US in this regard.

Now if only we could get speeds like you guys get

how can they mod the cable box and what if you nee

[Joe_Dragon]

how can they mod the cable box and what if you need to swap it out?

Do they take ownership of the cable box and will they pay out $300-$600+ if the cable co bills you for a new cable box?

well it kind of hard to fill court tv 24/7 so that

[Joe_Dragon]

well it kind of hard to fill court tv 24/7 so that other stuff is filler.

Internet only?

[powerlinekid]

Due to some life problems I had to move quickly on the cheap. I ended up in time warner territory and had no problem ordering 15Mb internet for $29.99 a month sans tv or phone. Of course, time warner has jacked up the price to $43.99 but that plus netflix at $7.99 is still better than the $100 for a tv/internet package.

What are you talking about?

[okmijnuhb]

I've had cable internet only for years. With Cablevision in NYC. The didn't seem reluctant to me.

Re:I haven't had trouble

[unitron]

People with no TVs spend a lot of time and effort pointing out that they do not have a TV....

I bet you are a blast to hang with at a social event. Between you, the person that ran a marathon, the person that rescued a pet from a shelter, and a vegan, I don't know who would be worse.

Well, obviously the marathon running vegan who took the rescued pet home to their TV-less house which was built entirely of recycled soda cans and bottles.

And don't forget to ask them about the solar panels and windmill.

"Where can I get...

[unitron]

... my "Kill your TV" bumper sticker?" "

What I want is a "Strangle your cable company" sticker.

The TV's not the one doing me wrong.

Playing the Violin For Cablevision

[organgtool]

So a cable company is upset because the only way they can get certain channels is to buy them in a bundle with other channels that they don't want. Congratulations, Cablevision! Now you know how your customers feel.