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Steam For Linux: A Respectable Showing
An anonymous reader writes "Valve has just released its February, 2013 Steam Hardware & Software Survey, and the results are absolutely mind blowing. Linux is now standing strong as a legitimate gaming platform. It now represents 2.02% of all active Steam users."
That's in keeping with what new submitter lars_doucet found. Lars writes: "I'm an independent game developer lucky enough to be on Steam. Recently, the Steam Linux client officially went public and was accompanied by a site-wide sale. The Linux sale featured every single Linux-compatible game on the service, including our cross-platform game Defender's Quest. .... Bottom line: during the sale we saw nearly 3 times as many Linux sales of the game as Mac (Windows still dominated overall)."
Interesting... it took a game distribution platform to convince people that Linux is a viable gaming platform. Isn't it ironic?
PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
Not a bad showing for Linux, all things considered. The top variant of Linux is nearly tied with Windows 8.
That's not bad at all. Is Microsoft shaking in their boots? Not really. Are they watching carefully? You get your ass. Is this an opportunity to upend the horrorshow that is Windows 8? I hope so.
Is answering your own questions a bit douchy? Perhaps.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Bing market share = failure. Linux 2% = Victory.
Does not match my experience, I have 43 Linux games on Steam (mostly redeemed from Indie Bundles) and they all work fine, even on my Intel HD 4000. A quote from your "prime example",
The game runs under Linux and I bought it, but had I known it's Flash I would not have bought it...
seems to agree with my experience (not that I like flash, not that I like the status of flash on linux, but if it works, it works).
The state you are in while your HEAD is detached... - wait, what?
Yes 2% share in a few weeks VS a gigantic company that has thrown billions into advertising.
Linux is only free if your time has no value. Windows is only free if you threaten to use Linux.
Thanks for coming to the party Valve, we welcome you - now it's time to buy some games for Linux.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Right now it's brand new and much-hyped, we could easily be dealing with a case of regression to the mean.
Let's see how the numbers looks 6 months down the road.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
So, have you asked "mainstream" developers why they don't have their steam games ported to Linux yet? Or is your category of 'shitty games' inclusive of all Steam games as well?
You never know...
While there's certainly some indie games, games like Counter-Strike (standard and Source), Half-Life, and Team Fortress 2 are available and are quite popular. Not bad for starting out for a new platform. I'm sure that'll increase in time.
Genuine question- why would you use the steam key when you have direct access to a drm-free version? Was this just curious testing, or am I missing something?
You buy the indie bundle... humble bundles for example and you are entitled to a DRM free copy. Awesome.
You use the steam key anyway because its as easy as using any other linux package manager. You select what you want, you click play and a few minutes later your playing. You switch to your laptop up stairs, launch steam, click what you want ... and start playing.
The DRM free direct downloads are great in the event steam fails or is down or something. But honestly, for all that I dislike about steam, it is easy to use. I use GoG a lot too, but find myself wishing that I could download and install those games via steam as well. Its just nice not to have all the clutter of manual downloads, manual patches, expansion packs, etc.
I guess MS is making a killing with Windows Phone then :-p
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Ever hear of growth? You have to start somewhere. I'd say it's not bad. Just give it time, you're passing judgment too soon.
If only they would bother creating a standards conformant window instead of trying to replicate their non-standard GUI on Linux, which results in it being unusable under tiling window managers (at least i3, which I am using).
And the requirement for joining Mensa is that you belong to the top 2% of the population, rated by IQ. Coincidence? I think not!
c++;
Yes more people use Windows, but when XP and 7 finally have their support ended, the people using those Microsoft platforms will be forced into using precisely what they are avoiding, the 'modern' interface. It's going to be interesting to watch if they move to Mac, Linux or suck up to Microsoft and push themselves into that new UI.
Let's say they pushed themselves into that new UI. Now after months and years of using that, they will be hooked into it by Microsoft's hooks. At that point, switching to Mac or Linux would be extremely difficult due to the UI differences. It would be devastating for the future of Linux without a similar UI, that's what worries me. For Linux to have any future, the users of these OS's which support is ending, need to jump in our (Linux) lake and let their feet get wet.
That's how I'm thinking, it may be difficult for some to understand what I mean. In any case, Defender's Quest shows that there is money in the Platform. And I don't give a hoot what Microsoft is doing, I have already jumped in the Linux lake and no interest in going back again. But there are a lot of folks that, apparently, enjoy being chained up and forced to do things. You can't save the world, so grab whoever you can, unchain them, and run as fast as you can before the roof caves in.
Actually, manual downloads and patches sounds great to me. Means you retain control over how you want to use your game installation, such that if a newer patch is rubbish you can choose to stick with something earlier. Yes I know in Steam you can tell it to not update a particular game, but sooner or later Steam will force the update either due to resetting that setting, or a reinstall which will necessitate it making sure everything's up to day. I don't like this automatic control because there are some games, like RAGE and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, which have problems with their respective latest patches that don't exist in former ones.
People seem to enjoy trading convenience for control. I understand why, but I don't agree that the increased benefit of giving the vendor more control is the direction we want to take things.
Raenex is a dickhead
I know someone who installed Linux and then Steam on Linux just so she could get the penguin in TF2. She doesn't even play TF2, but she damn well was going to get the penguin thing.
I wonder how many out there did the same.
When you buy a game on Steam, you get access to it in all available Steam formats. That means that for people who may use OSX, Linux, and Windows (as I do, for example) may not necessarily count as a "linux" sale, even though I'll play some of the purchased games there.
Companies won't port games unless they see enough potential customers, and they have traditionally made the assumption that there are very few linux game players and that the few there are would just dual boot to play games anyway.
If enough people buy the linux games available on steam, then you will get more being made, and you will also see developers creating their initial games with portability in mind (eg using opengl instead of directx etc) to decrease the cost of porting.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
I bought a Mac in 2009 because it was (and still is) the only platform where I can use Photoshop/Lightroom/Steam/vim/ssh/git/ruby natively.
I use GoG a lot too, but find myself wishing that I could download and install those games via steam as well.
This. I have about 100 games from GOG and love their DRM-less nature but were they to partner with Steam and offer some kind of "manage in Steam" upgrade for 5% to 10% of a game's price I'd surely go for it. (Not all of them at once though.)
Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
Some of the Flash games, like Lone Survivor, doesn't really work any longer..
Defining Statistics and Social Research
It doesn't suprise me that Mac games aren't doing that well. Why buy a Mac game when you can run Windows and buy Windows games?
If you RTFA there is an update at the bottom stating that according to his 'Lifetime direct sales" data Macs, Linux and Windows were at 11, 7 and 83% respectively meaning that Mac games out did Linux games in post purchase downloads. That data contrasts with that one weeks worth of Steam sales figures and interestingly enough it wasn't mentioned in the /. summary. Nobody buys a Mac, or installs Linux for gaming. The main interest of Mac and Linux are usually not gaming. It's programming, photo processing, graphics work, word processing, CS research, general nerding around with the OS, etc... or just a desire to use something other than windows... gaming is (usually) a secondary activity for Mac/Linux and game X not being available on Mac/Linux is not the end of the world for them. Those that are really serious about gaming dual boot.
How is that easier then "other linux package manager"? If I want a game or application, I just click on "Install" and a few minutes later I'm playing/using that application.
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
Even if they put more than 2% of their resources into this, the actual question is whether they made more money doing this than if they had done something else.
Proves that more intelligent people are gamers... as more computer illiterate people use Mac than linux.
Almost ever single OSX users who is someone who rejected a platform where gaming is great (Windows) to move to a platform where gaming was so/so. Given the capacities are not hugely different and price leans higher that means that anyone who picked OSX over Windows probably doesn't game much. Moreover the Apple crowd in general has been aging and I suspect Steam type gaming is much more popular ages 10-30 than ages 30-50.
In the case of Linux the capacities are hugely different. The more advanced Linux window managers have no Windows or OSX equivalents. There are no GUI desktop environments with the level of configurability of KDE for Windows or OSX. Many of the applications for Linux have no equivalents, though they have competitors which are vastly more expensive. ETC...
I think it is not unreasonable you are looking at two very different populations.
OSX has commanded more much more than single digit market share during that time either, and usually itself single digit. It has commanded huge profit share but market share, no.
You make it sound like Valve is a poor struggling indie company and not a major player.
Its not easier then using another package manager with a repo. Its as easy. But that is a lot easier than visiting various game websites downloading things, downloading updaters, etc etc etc
I don't like this automatic control because there are some games, like RAGE and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, which have problems with their respective latest patches that don't exist in former ones.
The fact that it makes keeping everyone in sync version-wise trivial for multiplayer, is a godsend, that more than offsets the regression-bug argument I think.
Avoiding a few regression bugs is certainly not worth the effort of manually downloading and manually patching every game one wants to play.
People seem to enjoy trading convenience for control. I understand why, but I don't agree that the increased benefit of giving the vendor more control is the direction we want to take things.
That's fair, and finer end user controls over things like that would be cool. Perhaps the ability to select patch level to play a game at for example. I'm not sure it would really be worth the effort to develop something like that though just to have that level of control.
A respectable showing? The steam client may be the greatest thing ever but there isn't even a single current AAA title available. Not one. The biggest game they've got is half-life 1. It was released in 1998. 15 years ago. That's something we should be getting from gog.com. This looks to me like a token effort in order to get some cheap advertising on Linux friendly sites such as Slashdot.
News flash, that game's so old it probably plays perfectly in wine anyway. When steam for Linux starts getting AAA titles within a few weeks of the windows release then they will have something worth talking about.
Can you fire Linus Torvalds? Along with most of the team leaders? Sadly THAT is what you'd need for true growth. Look at how Torvalds just keeps cranking out the kernel, this sure as hell doesn't help stability when there isn't an ABI as it makes drivers break more often, and just look at some of the facepalming stupid move the devs have made, ALSA trashed for Pulse LONG before it was ready for primetime, KDE 4 had the same only worse as it was barely functional and had jack shit for features, and how about Gnomeshell? Makes Win 8 look like MSFT gives a fuck by way of comparison, I'm shocked they didn't change the logo to the finger because that is what they were giving their fanbase.
Waste your mod points all you want, call me the devil, as a retailer i've been begging, writing articles, fuck people we ain't asking for much here, just some true reliability and solid functionality and what do we get...now Ubuntu is going rolling release so all the breakage can be totally random! yay!
There is a REASON why pirated Windows beats your free product in marketshare by a country mile and its REALLY simple...see that copy of XP? You could install it at RTM and it would STILL BE RUNNING when EOL comes next year...that is FOURTEEN YEARS OF SUPPORT FOLKS! And see that copy of Win 7? 2020, any system its installed on now will STILL be running it in 2020 bar hardware failure. No "update foo broke my drivers" no playing hardware roulette, no having your gear working before an update and it turned into a broken mess after...fuck has ANY Linux dev heard of testing? Not from where I'm sitting they haven't.
I've been giving "The Hairyfeet Challenge" for 6 years now folks, SIX FRICKING YEARS and NOT ONE PASSED, you name your poison, not one has passed it yet! And I'm not asking for a miracle here, I'm just asking for the hardware that works at the start to be working at the end without the devs shitting on the drivers...is that REALLY so God damned much to ask for?
Fix THAT and me and every other small retailer would be HAPPY, you hear me? HAPPY to have your product on our shelves. Know how much Windows OEM eats into my sales? try 35 fricking percent, think I LIKE handing that money to Redmond? Hell no, I got bills to pay like everybody else and Redmond sure as hell hasn't been treating us system builders right. But until you can deliver a product that won't put me out of business with after sale support costs you can give it up chuck, MSFT could put out windows Goatse with smell-o-vision and it would still get more sales. hell look at that flaming turd Win 8, its already got more users than Linux and its a shitpile.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Firstly, I'd wager that the effort Valve has put in to Linux support is pretty much 2% of their total. The way they seem to work is to undertake a lot of different things, most of which aren't wildly profitable.
Secondly: games on linux is a chicken-and-egg thing. I use *ux daily for work, but my home desktop has been a windows machine forever, because I sometimes want to play games. Most (but not all) of the games I play are Valve titles, so being able to play them on ux makes it more likely I'd give linux on the desktop a serious try, or recommend it to a friend, than before. If they can bring more big developers to the platform (either through improving emulation, or by leveraging the upcoming "steambox" to encourage developers to make their games compatible), then Linux on the desktop becomes a viable choice for home computers for a lot of people that it just isn't at the moment, and then selling games to Linux users becomes more profitable in a spiral of awesomeness.
Every publisher seems to have their own Steam-like service, and the threat of Xbox Live, Windows8 Marketplace and Win8 phones actually interoperating to give one Steam-like system across the PC, pocket and living room is obviously a huge threat. As we've seen time and again, if you're beholden to Microsoft for your business, then you won't be in business for long, so they are pushing an alternate platform through a number of avenues and initiatives to make sure that they have a Plan B for when MS decides that they want to be the sole gatekeeper for the entire Windows games market.
If this article had been on neowin and had praised Microsoft's new OS for breaking through on a gaming distribution platform after a lot of marketing effort from the distributor including an opening sales and had managed 2% share, Slashdotters would have been cackling and calling it hype.
What the TFA is is hype and wishful thinking. Linux has an enormous long way to go before its even considered worth porting to as part of current game development.
Its a start, but no more than that.
Those of us who are old enough can remember lots of dawns in the IT industry - most of them false.
Tubby or not tubby. Fat is the question
Well I agree with you on multiplayer. That's one case where automating patches should always be done, since everyone needs the same version obviously. I generally play mostly single player games these days though so it's not as big of a deal, but I get where it's useful.
As for a patch level, that's too much effort I reckon. It's just a consequence of having a platform like Steam or Origin or whatever keeping tabs on your game library, and I'll admit regressions don't happen THAT often (except when a patch removes features, like a lot of useful console commands were in a RAGE update). As for manual downloads, bit deal - we dealt with that years ago and lived through it. It's hardly what I'd call a huge bother. Call me an old fart, I'm accepting of that. :)
Raenex is a dickhead
Sorry I misread. Yes you are right of course.
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
I love using linux, I've used it exclusively for three or four years now. I have my whole family using it, and when it works, it's a great experience. But everything you said here is the truth. Recently an Ubuntu update, one that should have been trivial, killed off my wifi in a way that took me hours to fix. Bullshit like that is unthinkable on Windows, and until it's just as unthinkable for us, the year of linux on the desktop will never, ever come.
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
Wow. You're going on and on about how Linux hardware support sucks and Windows' is the best ever. The computer I'm on now, a basic Dell from around 2006, came with Vista. I installed my copy of XP a while back just to update the BIOS. Guess what? The fucking Ethernet card doesn't even work! What good is a god damn creaky 14-year-old piece of shit operating system that everyone has moved on from, even the hardware manufacturers?
It's pretty bad... I've experienced some trouble in the past getting wireless cards to work, but at least generally the Ethernet card worked to actually fetch whatever firmware or other files were needed. Windows? Lucky I had an easy way of just getting the file downloaded on another machine and transferred to the target with a USB flash drive, because the last thing I want to fuck with is trying to get something as basic as an Ethernet network card to work. And there you are, bragging that this ancient rotting collection of bits works every bit as well as it did closer to its prime. Bullshit.
And I repeat, this is a Vista-era machine... IT IS FROM FUCKING 2006. The computer itself is old. I would hate to see how XP would react on a brand-new machine. Then again, maybe it would be something dangerously fascinating like a fireworks show. Don't even get me started on how "well" Windows XP worked on pre-XP (Windows ME) hardware.
Really, I'm too tired and don't even feel like reading your full response or answering any more of your points. Assuming you can call it that, it seems like nothing more than random bitching about everything today. Troll on.
It sounds like a lot of the kiddies dont remember Loki Games.
Loki pretty much did what steam did but with actual game disks. But they did it the hard way. Linux ONLY and paying dearly to game studios to help port or wine wrap the games.
Every linux guy I know still has several Loki game disks in their collection.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Odd, I have no problems with Machinarium on Linux & I'm pretty sure it's a Flash game as well. I may be wrong though.
There is a war going on for your mind.
The first step in statistics is to understand what the data you have represents.
The hardware survey represents all hardware samples, month by month. Now take into account the fact that those samples include dual and triple booting systems, which is a difficult number to derive from the data provided by Steam.
My experience from reading the Steam forums as a beta tester suggests to me that a large portion of the Linux test base were multi-booting. My feeling from reading the support threads is that many of these people will not be using Linux as their primary OS.
In other words, if I use the same extrapolation method as the original author: It's 2 degrees colder this morning than last morning. In just 1 more month, this area will no longer support any life.
You are wrong of course. Psychonauts, Half-Life, Portal, The Cave, The Killing Floor, Serious Sam 3 & Team Fortress 2 are hardly indie games. Trine, Faster Than Light, Uplink, Darwinia, Dungeons of Dredmor, World of Goo, Bastion, Towns, Legend of Grimrock, Osmos & Waking Mars are hardly shitty games.
Actually, Waking Mars was bar none the best game I played last year.
There is a war going on for your mind.
"Unthinkable on Windows"
Waaay to show you don't support Windows in any serious setting, or in any significant number covering different models/brands. Either that, or your awfully forgetful, or lucky.
I haven't booted Windows since Valve released the games I play for Linux. As most "Linux Gamers" that don't enjoy Tux Racer, when I take breaks from work I want to play for a while, and that's the only reason I own a legal copy of Windows. It's not HL2 Episode 3, but I'm very happy with this.
Or it will still be 2% as that is how percentages work.
He's not confusing iOS w/ OS-X. He's stated the facts about OS-X - that its numbers are static. However, the least that can be said for OS-X is that it at least makes margins that continue to fund the development of the Mac platform. Which unfortunately can't be said for Linux.
For Windows Phone, it's just been out, as opposed to Linux, which has now been there for more than a decade. When you're stuck at 2% of the market year after year, it's worth looking into what you are doing wrong. If in a year or 2 Windows Phone hasn't moved (as it probably won't), it would be valid to call it a failure.
Problems w/ Linux have been that it's based on a license whose copyleft requirement prevents any distro from being profitable (w/ some rare exceptions such as Red Hat) and whose lack of compatibility b/w versions has meant that even if an application is developed for one version of a Linux distro, there is no guarantee that it will be easily installed and run on a subsequent version of the same distro. That, coupled w/ a lack of drivers in the first place, make Linux tough to adapt even for those who genuinely want to give it a try, but are not whizzes in bash or any other *sh. Linux could have used someone like Apple doing what it could to completely hide its Unix underpinnings from the user, so that both installation and usage would be seamless.
Bullshit like that is unthinkable on Windows
Bullshit like this made me go from dual-boot to full-time linux some ten years ago. Please don't generalize because of one bad experience.
That 2.02% is way over inflated due to TF2 players installing Linux to get the Team Fortress 2 tux item. /v/, /vg/, reddit, /g/ and the TF2 irc channels were absolutely full of TF2 players that were looking for help to temporarily install Linux. The overwhelming opinion also seemed to be that Ubuntu is terrible and that Linux isn't worth using on the desktop.
The TF2 players learned their lesson after the Mac client release, when playing TF2 during the Mac release got you a pair of earbuds in game - initially the reaction from the "hardcore" players was one of derision, even going so far as to set some servers up that auto-kicked you if you had the earbuds equipped, only for those buds to become high value items in the coming months due to their rarity. Now they're highly sought after in-game.
I get constant trade requests for them, at inflated costs, but I have no desire to sell them. Having been one of those early players who got them by logging in under OS X and facing all the hate for being a "scrub", there's no way I'll be selling them now that they've decided they want them.
Hopefully the same thing won't happen to the Linux gamers playing on their native platform for the first time.
> Bullshit like that is unthinkable on Windows
No it isn't. There's a lot of propaganda about how good and easy Windows is supposed to be but it's mostly boggus.
On the other hand, I just experienced this very thing on MacOS. I put MacOS back on a Mini that had been running Ubuntu for years (without incident).
As soon as it updated itself, networking was completely buggered.
The MacOS update didn't just "kill wifi". It "killed all networking" period.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It's a fair observation that my single anecdote is not "data". But if we look at data, are we really going to see that these sorts of issues happen equally often between the two? Believe me, I don't want to defend closed source OSes, and this sort of thing obviously isn't a dealbreaker or else I'd have switched back. But it's a big problem, and not acknowledging it won't get us anywhere.
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
I went to comdex in my Loki t-shirt and got mistaken for a Loki employee. I went to a LUG meeting and people were flabbergasted that there were games for Linux. I have had to "beat the bushes" sometimes to find games for Linux.
Humble Bundles have benefited from being widely publicized without any real effort on the part of those running it. They have benefited from the same media effect that Apple enjoys. Steam is the same way.
They end up being a success even if the people making the games put no real effort in ensuring that their target demographic knows what's going on.
Something like Steam makes the games easy to find even for people not willing to go off looking for them like Odysseus.
The same goes for the Apple and Google "stores". It's not limited to Linux really.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
...yes. Never mind the fact that Microsoft is a monopoly that chose to clone Word Perfect and force feed it to everyone. Corel's real problem was supporting Linux.
You are confusing cause and effect here.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Actually, Waking Mars was bar none the best game I played last year.
Thanks for the tip; I'd never heard of that game and just gone to look it up on their website. Looks like $10 of my money is going to be well spent there...
Sooo let me get this straight...you installed an OS that came out FIVE YEARS before the hardware was made...and are bitching it didn't have a driver? Really? I doubt Win95 would have drivers for that new Core 2 Duo which just proves Linux is the best evar!
Do you see ANY B&M stores carry your product? No. Do you see any small shops like mine carry your product? No. Well why? We don't get ANY breaks on Windows pricing so by carrying your product we could raise our profits by a good 40% or undercut the competition, so why?
Again I DARE you to take the Hairyfeet challenge. take ANY distro that comes out on what Linux considers a normal release schedule, which seems to be 6 months to a year and a half (No LTS because Canonical has abandoned it for a rolling release), now download the one from 5 years ago (Again I'm rigging the test IN YOUR FAVOR by making your product only support HALF the length of Windows support) and then update to current using ONLY the GUI, as a normal user would. Go ahead, I'll wait...what was that? Your drivers broke? Well there you go friend, now you see the problem.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I have actually used it since the beta invite popped into my inbox. For those of you who havn't tried it here is a short summary:
I run Arch Linux, which is not supported. Valve only supports Ubuntu and provides the software as a .deb file which contains the "bootstrapper", basically a "netinstall" version if you were to make a comparision to the average Linux distro. The bootstrapper is easily taken apart via a script in the custom installer program that some of the Arch Linux folks whipped up and ends up installed system-wide by default.
This caused some problems for people like me, who are too paranoid to install untrusted software system-wide or even in my own home directory. I gave it a separate user account and denied the installer root access (which it asked for every time it tried to auto-update). It cried and bugged out, but you could run TF2 from day one. As they continued to improve the software they actually listened to the complaints at github (where they keep their Linux issue tracker) and made the software runnable as a regular user. It now resides completely inside my 'steam' users directory and the bootstrapper is long gone from the system-wide install.
If you are like me, and only run ALSA, hating PulseAudio's tentacle guts, you can actually run Steam anyway. They are using SDL as the backend, so when launching Steam you just export SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa before running it, and you'll get sound! Even in-game voice is operational, but you still can't permanently disable it to get rid of all the jackasses screaming into the microphones.
Steam itself still uses the look from it's Windows roots, the ugly custom-skinned UI. And it can't be resized on my machine, which runs PekWM. It is also slow as molasses to start, and so is TF2. That might be in part to me using ONLY a 3G modem for my gaming though. The store also works like a charm.
An interesting feature is that you can actually switch between the OpenGL game window and the rest of your desktops seamlessly, with no apparent bugs or performance loss. Faster and more painless than on Windows. This wasn't always the case though, as early versions would switch to your desktop as soon as you got an archievement and completely screw up your mouse input once you switched back. This has been long since fixed though.
The only recent bug I came across was an apparent lack of support for multi-user environments, where I once started the bootstrapper as my regular user by mistake and let it install, thinking it was an regular update. Once it was up I figured what was wrong, uninstalling it and starting up as the 'steam' user, whereas it sefaulted hard. It took several hours and a lot of support ticket reading to figure out that leftover temporary file descriptors left from the first session screwed up the second one. Kinda stupid bug for a modern software, but that's what beta testing is for I suppose.
For me, Valve has really made my Linux experience a lot better. Hat's off to them. Now I just need to find some TF2 servers with players that are as beligerent and offensive as me!
The rest of valve's source engine games like portal2 and left4dead 1&2 are bound to be ported before long.
Now that they have the engine working with HL:Source and TF2, it can't be too hard to get the others over, it's just a matter of applying the necessary patches and doing time consuming tweaks to make it run well, instead of just run.
1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
It's what those in management refer to as a loss leader. And you know what? Given time, it works.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
I've been a system builder for more than 20 years, building on average 3 boxes a week and probably fixing a dozen more, know how many times I've seen Windows update break a driver since XP came out? TWICE, that's it, that's all. The first was a cheapo capture card by some fly by night company that was here today gone later today that wouldn't run on anything except XP RTM for some reason and the second was a K-World super cheapo wireless card that would crap itself if you looked at it funny, it didn't like Vista SP1 but considering I had to use the XP driver because the company seems to abandon products after 6 months I don't know how one could blame Windows for that one.
Again put your money where your mouth is, I DARE you to prove me wrong. Take The Hairyfeet challenge, film it from start to stop with NO breaks (so we know you aren't hunting forums for fixes when the camera is off) and post your video to any of the bazillion sites that will let you. Go ahead and prove me wrong why don't you? You won't and the reason is because you CAN NOT DO IT because in over a dozen tries with different distros and the most boring hardware I could find Linux shit itself and died before 5 years, half the time Windows gets support, of updates could be applied! How fucking sad is it you see in Linux forum after forum the advice to "install clean" for every God damned update, that is the kind of shit Win98 users had to do and you call THAT progress?
if you can't even supply a fucking lousy 5 years worth of updates, when the average low end system has multiple cores and oodles of RAM and thus can be counted on to easily last 6 to 8 years WTF makes you think your product is ready for the masses? You think Grandma is secretly a bash programmer? Sally the secretary has a spare box running Windows to Google for fixes when the Linux one craps all over the wireless?
At the end of the day I want Linux to succeed I really really do. I think Win 8 is an abomination that should be recalled and I think MSFT treats us system builders like dogshit so if anybody wants Linux to be ready its me but I'm not gonna lie and delude myself into pretending that a system shitting on drivers every. damned. time. you update the stupid thing is acceptable, because its not. And frankly Linux users should be ashamed of letting the devs get away with it!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Know what is fucking sad? That you consider that acceptable, that is fucking sad. So here you are ADMITTING that your drivers are only good for 2 years MAX, is that correct? With the average lifespan of a modern PC being 5-8 years, did I read you right?
Until a manufacturer can release a product with a driver on the disc and know that driver will work for the lifetime of the product? I'm sorry but your OS isn't ready for the masses, its not. And tell me friend, what makes you think Linux Toravlds is smarter than the devs of BSD, Solaris, OSX and iOS, Windows, and even OS/2? because they ALL HAVE A DRIVER ABI and Linux does not. I'm sorry but when that many development teams go left and you go right its not "cool" or trendy, its you being an arrogant ass just for the sake of it. Linus, like too many of the devs, don't give a shit how much pain he causes the end users as long as it "Works for me (TM)" and it is THAT kind of attitude that has left Linux flatline.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I think what might be missing from linux is a solid organization to come in and say "here's what's up" when it comes to what packages we do and don't use. Yes, it is less "open" but when it comes to stability and reliability, it would win in the end.
I've always said that windows understands business but has a poor understanding of infrastructure, and that linux has a good understanding of infrastructure but a poor understanding of business (The later somewhat changing with SAMBA 4, but I don't have my hopes up. Contrary to popular view, SAMBA isn't just about CIFS, but about group management, policies, and a number of other things that are very poorly done on linux yet done so well on windows. That, and linux is very lacking of a solid groupware suite - the best groupware that runs on linux right now is google apps.)
What it would take is a desktop version of linux that can understand both business and infrastructure to topple the competition. Games would be a good start (after all, games translate to business because they are done as a for profit venture) and that said if valve ever released their own linux distro and established some better norms as far as what software stack we should generally stick to, that would probably take it a long ways.
And no, not ubuntu. Yes, they pick a common stack, but they do a really bad job of it. For example they push everybody over to unity even knowing that a lot of people hate it, so even among ubuntu users you have people who modify their software stack.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
That's a bit like asking for SATA support on linux 2.2.
This just in: Older operating systems don't always support newer hardware. More news at 11.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
If you listen to the crap people say On the Internet(tm) then the 2% of Steam users that use Linux simply can't exist. Some of these were never true, some are no longer true, but all of these were echo-chambered within the last 24 hours:
* All Linux users are fanatical idealists that won't use any closed source software, ever. ... blah blah blah
* Linux doesn't exist on the Desktop and is only good for servers.
* Linux is only good for phones.
* Linux users spend all their of their time at the command line.
* TCO of Linux is too high.
*
It's all bullshit that was never true or is no longer true (and hasn't been for some time). Linux excels everywhere there isn't a monopoly. You're not looking for the year of the desktop where Linux finally overcomes it's shortcomings. You're looking for the fall of a monopoly.
Could have something to do with the fact that unity is a POS that even most veteran linux users hate.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
Proves that more intelligent people are gamers... as more computer illiterate people use Mac than linux.
Almost ever single OSX users who is someone who rejected a platform where gaming is great (Windows) to move to a platform where gaming was so/so. Given the capacities are not hugely different and price leans higher that means that anyone who picked OSX over Windows probably doesn't game much. Moreover the Apple crowd in general has been aging and I suspect Steam type gaming is much more popular ages 10-30 than ages 30-50.
In the case of Linux the capacities are hugely different. The more advanced Linux window managers have no Windows or OSX equivalents. There are no GUI desktop environments with the level of configurability of KDE for Windows or OSX. Many of the applications for Linux have no equivalents, though they have competitors which are vastly more expensive. ETC...
I think it is not unreasonable you are looking at two very different populations.
Or, the other obvious conclusion. Mac users who wanted Defenders Quest on Steam have already been able to download it, because it's been available this entire time. Linux users represent pent up demand.
At Mac launch, Macs represented 8.9% of Steam users (http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/06/04/win.7.overtakes.xp.mac.gets.significant.share/). That puts the launch percentage of Mac users significant higher than the launch numbers for Linux.
I'd argue against your armchair assessment of the Mac market, but at this point, the entire basis for it is in question.
In coordinance with the EEE-PC problem, that happened a while ago, MS doesnt want any other Online store on Windows 8 unless MS aproves, can someone tell me if MS has aproved Steam?
People once told me 68K ram was all we needed,
for something that just barely launched and has been continuously shunned, 2% is pretty amazing. I doubt it is going to stay there and will steady climb, especially with windows 8 shooting themselves in the foot with the fear of a only microsoft software store.
Huh. I see it completely differently. During the time period there were three times as many Linux sales as OSX. Maybe it has less to do with market share of the operating systems or quality of their users, and more to do with the fact that all these games are old hat on OSX. OSX users who want to play those games have had plenty of time to get them at discount prices during other Steam sales. For Linux it's a new thing. This is the first time Linux users have been offered the games, (or at least, offered them in a nice convenient [and cheap!]) package. Well, no wonder sales on Linux are higher! It's just a fresh market versus a saturated one. Give it a year, then compare numbers.
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
Steam for Linux isn't really about bringing games to existing Linux users. This is preparation for their Steambox hardware. They're creating a market for viable game development on Linux, so that when they release the Steambox, developers won't be hesitant to develop for it. By using Linux, they don't have to provide Windows licenses for every device, thereby keeping the cost of the device down.
So you see, the existing Linux userbase really isn't an important factor in this, though that it does exist and they are interested in games, certainly furthers their goals.
Learning about brewing beer, by brewing beer.
I think that's very likely true as well. I agree we'll need to have to see numbers. My assumption was that Steam sales are stable based on the article. Given your comment and other evidence since I wrote this post that assumption seems off. If Steam sales are unstable and prone to surges....
No one sees a challenge. They see trolling. You've been ignored for 6 years.
Do you really think you're the only one who ignores trolls?
I want this account deleted.
Before you know it, you'll be playing Left4Dead on your phone. There's a HUGE untapped market there.
My phone left me for dead long ago.
The thing that puts me off using Steam under Linux is that I have to install it as root. I only use Windows (XP) for games. One of the endearing features of windows is that it's useless at interfacing with other file systems. My assumption is that if Steam develops a security hole, gets hacked and starts trampling across my system from a Windows install, it's not going to be able to do any subtle damage to my Linux disks containing my life. From a Linux install it already has access to the entire system.
Too bad i don't have mod points, nice one.
:wq!
I think that if Windows Phone had achieved 2% share after a month Ballmer would be doing a happy dance on national TV.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Dude. I've been running Linux for years without wiping the computer. My desktop has been a steady upgrade cycle from Ubuntu 8.04. I recently upgraded from 12.04 to 12.12 with absolutely zero trouble.
Years ago, sure. Somewhere around Ubuntu 6.4 I had a heck of a time running upgrades. Let's not even consider early SuSE variants, or RedHat in the days of 4.x. For the past five years, however, every computer I run has upgraded flawlessly every time.
I run Linux on all my computers, both desktop and laptop. The company I work for runs Linux on all the servers, all the development machines, and recently switched their customer care group from XP to Linux with an XP-like theme.
None of us have the kind of bitter experience that you are describing. I think your vitriol is rather outdated.
cej102937
I don't know what decade you are in, but I know it is not the 2010's. Linux has been nothing but fast, reliable, solid, and virus-free for years, now.
Oh, and let's not forget Android, the fancy graphical shell Google wrote on top of guess what operating system ... that would be Linux, taking over the world right there.
People like you have been saying the same assinine things for decades. It never changes.
Meanwhile, Linux routes around you. That's the nice thing about open source. Stupid people and stupid ideas get left in the dust to, er, flatline, while the rest of the world goes and does something awesome.
Like Android (which is completely Linux). Windows was made for the desktop, and it formed a virtual monopoly that was hard to beat. So, Linux is now firmly occupying the Next Big Thing (mobile computing) which is rapidly leaving your sad desktop arguments in the dust.
You don't have to agree with me. Visit a local college campus and witness how many people are using tablets versus, say, anything else.
cej102937
What surprises me is that desktop Linux distros aren't tapping it. Android being open source and all, it sounds like it would be nearly trivial to take it and have it running on top of X, each app getting it own window. Ensure 100% API and ABI compabitility, and every app in Play Store that's pure Java, or native but has binaries compiled for x86 (which is most of them, I suspect, ever since it became the default option in Android NDK about a year ago), is instantly available. That would mean some high-profile games, too, such as GTA 3 and Vice City.
ZOMFG did you even READ what you posted? Anybody wants to see how fanboyism creates delusional thinking here ya go, the guy says "I've not had a single issue...other than my graphics driver is broken (which I blame somewhere else instead of where it should be blamed) which I had to jump through the hoops for, but I drank the koolaid so that is okay"
You do NOT know how badly I want to reach through the screen and shake you right now while screaming at you QUIT TAKING SHIT ALREADY! WHAT THE FUCK, the community is so damned delusional the guys can post shit with problems that are...what? Features now? Serious wake the fuck up folks, this is beyond sad.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Let me make this VERY simple and easy to understand okay? ANDROID IS NOT LINUX, its an embedded OS controlled COMPLETELY by Google, NO outside contributors, NO Torvalds futzing, NO CHANGES to the driver model allowed by Google that isn't vetted and Google approved and NO GPL V3 anything allowed AT ALL. It has as much in common with Linux as your router does with a graphics workstation IE not a damned thing other than a couple of files. Hey your $2 calculator runs Linux too by that logic, why not try to steal credit for that as well?
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Ubuntu 11 new enough for you? And after shelling out all the bandwidth charges doing the Hairyfeet challenge for doubters frankly if you want me to run the test on all mainstream distros again we'll have to set up a way so the Linux guys who think their distro won't shit the bed can donate $100 to pay for the bandwidth but I have a perfect test bed sitting right here, a circa 2007 Vista Business laptop I got for cheap because they broke a key on it.
That is the PERFECT AGE for the Hairyfeet Challenge as that would be about as bog standard for 5 years ago as you can get, C2D 3GB of RAM, and a 500GB HDD. If somebody pays for the bandwidth I'll be happy to take a Sunday at the shop with a video camera rolling and you can watch from start to finish and you'll see that the distros DIE HARD and that at LEAST one or more drivers WILL BE FUCKED in the 5 years worth of updates.
Again if the average user can't apply 5 years worth of updates without having a spare box to Google for fixes? your OS just isn't ready end of story. But don't take my word for it, you can buy a 5 year old laptop off of Craigslist for around $50, feel free to take the challenge and post the video. For SIX YEARS I have been issuing the challenge, not a single taker, why? I'll tell you why, because when the rubber meets the road you know it won't pass THAT is why. And I have NO doubt you've forgotten about the forum hunts and Google fixes you've applied over the years, which is something you average user simply wouldn't be able to do.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Question for you: Is your challenge to take and update the OS to it's current level of patches (so go from Vista to current SP and patches, XP to SP3 and patches, etc) or to go to current level of OS (so I would take a Vista system, update to 7, then update to 8, and install patches)? Because I've done both in Linux as well (RHEL 5 -> current patch level and RHEL 5 -> 6). The former is a lot less prone to breakage in both worlds, the latter I've seen issues with in both worlds (especially for the rapid release distros like Ubuntu and Fedora). I'm not sure that with the second option my laptop passes in Windows (it came with Vista, currently on 7, pretty sure something would break if I install 8 (most likely video drivers, though bluetooth doesn't like Windows 7, so that wouldn't be a good item to measure by since it's not stable as it is, and pretty sure one or two applications that are rather old would break too). I'm fairly sure it would pass using RHEL or Debian, and I could probably get it to pass using Fedora and Ubuntu (but I also know the upgrade paths, and know a lot more about these things then the average user).
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
Laptop in question, for the record, is a Toshiba L505D, and shipped with Vista (I bought it shortly after Windows 7 came out - store wanted to get rid of it because it still had Vista on it, great price).
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
The Windows vs Linux difference there is you can spend a few minutes downloading that Ethernet driver, probably from Realtek and probably a 100KB .exe, copy it on the target computer then double click it and it's done. No way you can do that on linux.
So you wasted the time to post "La la la I'm not listening" and you wonder why I have started calling Linux zealots like yourself FOSSies? Because like Moonies the ONLY answer that you accept is "Hey Biff, isn't Linux doubleplusgood? It sure is Skip and RMS farts cure global warming". Meanwhile your adoption? FLATLINE. Stolen Windows actually has MORE THAN FIVE TIMES what you have! Does that not ring ANY bells? or are they just noobs who aren't leet enough to see that shit sandwich tastes like watercrest?
Its a simple challenge that frankly gives Linux multiple advantages over the competition yet you won't take because you KNOW you can't pass it, you can't. I have given the challenge to, in no particular order, the *buntus, PCLOS, Debian, Fedora (I know but a FOSSie swore it would pass...it didn't) Knoppix, pretty much EVERY distro that at one time or another was touted as "user friendly". Well riddle me this...how "user friendly" is a distro you can't update without drivers dying? How "user friendly" is an OS with such piss poor design that features Windows has for over a decade, common sense features like rolback drivers, update drivers, and system restore by simple GUI aren't even implemented? Those technologies came out with Windows fucking ME and you STILL haven't caught up and you have the brass plated balls to lecture ME about trolling? Anybody who pushes such a horribly broken mess as ready for the masses is the fucking King God of Troll Mountain!
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I've never met someone who believed that and I know a lot of mac users.
Hope you like it, it had my fiance' & I enthralled for a few days (it's not a very long game, but very fun).
There is a war going on for your mind.
Even if steam or your internet connection is offline you can still play the game in offline mode. But if steam or your internet connection is down when you want to activate the game (to play it on another PC), then you are fucked.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
That rationale doesn't work for something like Steam, because all the games those people brought are available for them at Linux too, they won't need to buy them again.
Rethinking email
Yes. The phone manufacturers add some modules modules to kernel.org's code, and compile. (Just like Debian or anybody else.)
Yes. Put your head out of the sand, and take a look. Google has a tool for that too, by the way.
How the hell do you think any code goes in it?
Rethinking email
The linux desktop has not been stuck at 1-3% at decades -- it was never above 1% until recently, and has grown steadily and rapidly over the last few years to reach the current ~1.2%.
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Making people install drivers from CDs is not progress, it's masochism. Things need to just work.
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You can only trade games you haven't 'redeemed' onto your account. So it mostly only comes up if you buy a bundle that includes a game you already have... in some (but not all) cases you can gift the extra copy to someone else.
If you buy something as a gift for later, it also goes into that same owned, but not redeemed state, and while its in that state you can gift. But there's not generally much point in deliberately buying a game you don't want to trade for a game you do.
Once a title is in your games library, whether or not you've installed it, you can't trade it / gift it.
Frankly I wouldn't mind if steam allowed games to be traded even if they took a little fee for the process or limited how often you could do it to prevent abuse. That would eliminate one of my big gripes about the product.
Oh look. hairyfeet posted, so I guess that means Katherine Noyes will be trolling ./ in a bit looking for new article material.
Depending on what you mean by "natively", I have all of those on Windows ("depending" because they're native on the NT kernel, but not on the Win32 subsystem). The first four and the last are certainly native on Windows. There are full git suites for Win32 as well, although differences in the permissions model and such might be stretched enough to disqualify them from being "native". Ssh client is of course available. Ssh server is the most questionable, I suppose; there are of course ssh servers for Win32, even discounting Cygwin and its ilk; the network protocol is hardly beyond the capability of the Windows API. The bigger question is what you run after connecting; the lack of a Unix shell on most Windows systems could again be used to consider sshd on Win32 as "not native".
But, what about openssh (including sshd) on NT? That *is* available, although it goes through the POSIX subsystem rather than the Win32 subsystem (both are available although the POSIX one only on high-end editions; the OS/2 subsystem was dropped around a decade ago). My Win7 box is running about 7 POSIX processes right now, including init, cron, a localhost-only inetd, and sshd. If I ssh into the system with my Windows user account credentials and otherwise normal options, it will run bash for me. If I invoke bash (or another POSIX shell; I have several installed) and then run sudo, it will actually work as expected (setuid root) - something Cygwin is incapable of (the "sudo-for-cygwin" project is a complete hack that only vaguely achieves the same thing). I have git (and subversion and a couple even older ones), ruby (in case you don't like the win32 version), vim (gvim works but uses an X11 server rather than using Windows GUI code directly), gcc, gdb, GNU make (plus a few others), and all the various required headers and object archives, plus manpages. The filesystem behavior is case sensitive (this occasionally confuses Win32 programs, but generally they cope; NTFS has always been case-preserving and will preferentially match on exact case even in Win32). Shared object libraries work, and can be compiled. Although the binary images are PE-format (there's an ELF loader available, but it's very, very third-party-hack), they don't need extensions like .exe or anything; in Task Manager, the Image Name column for my sshd process is simply "sshd", not "sshd.exe" like it would be on Cygwin.
I like Windows because it lets me natively run all the programs you listed (though I don't use the Adobe stuff), plus a bunch of stuff that won't natively run on OS X or Linux (or any other OS).
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
I'd like to issue the anti-hairyfeet challenge but I wouldn't know where to start. Just too much is swept under the rug every time someone compares Windows with some generic, unnamed Linux distribution.
For those who don't know, the 'Hairyfeet challenge' is a dual boot apples-to-oranges driver-working-after-update challenge on unspecified hardware.
I think this is the same 'hariyfeet challenge' on the techworld article on the Linux broken toilet problem:
"Hairyfeet challenge". Just to make the challenge more fair I will take the WORST MSFT OS release this decade, Windows Vista RTM, and will place it in a dual boot with ANY Linux released that same quarter...your choice. We'll make sure all the drivers are working and then update to current..know what will happen? The Vista will be running just fine, all drivers functional and all software working, the Linux? BROKEN, horribly broken. the video will be trashed or the DE wonky or Pulse will puke and WiFi you can forget about, it'll be completely trashed.
The camera requirement is new. I don't know if the challenge is doable just because of how long it would take for a reasonable single-shot video to be taken. That's ignoring the other problems with the challenge. (Remote logins? Off camera assistance? Do upgrades count or do I need to do distro upgrades? If so will you install Windows 2008 server as one of the upgrades over Vista? How about 2008 server to 2012? Windows 8 on top of that? )
Distribution upgrades are hard. Microsoft does it pretty well. Most Linux distributions don't even offer them because you cannot guarantee freedom from cruft. Some versions go through fundamental system parts changes that have absolutely no equivalent in the Windows world since Microsoft Windows 2000 and XP.
For a car analogy, the hairyfeet challenge is to compare replacing the engine in a stock off the line Ford pickup and a sailcar developed by a university racing team. (It is really that ridiculous of a comparison.)
OT: nothing will stop somebody from claiming that sailcars will be your daily driver for work in just a few years because someone put Steam heated seats in it.
I am leaving windows because of the way win vista win 7 and win 8 suck. Ever since steam launched their linux ubuntu, I have not booted into my XP gaming station.
I am trying to find how to load a virtual version that actually boots my XP already loaded so I can toggle back and forth.
Please, Linux devs, support and port all the gaming . I need to be able to play x-com, defense grid, fallout etc.. on the linux platform.
Great job, thanx for an awesome os - keep it up and get it so I can tell microsoft to piss off.
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
I don't know how many times I've updated my computer and not had a driver breakage issue. Yeah I know. I'm a liar or I'm blinded by my RMS god. No one can win your challenge because you'll just dismiss them out of hand as being a FOSSie that is so fanatical that they lie. Is that it? Your challenge is a sham, let it rest in peace already.
And really who are you talking too? Steam, the thing that all us "FOSSies" are excited about, is not FOSS. I think your mis-characterization that you blindly assign to anyone who would use Linux won't work in the context of this article, troll. How can you even call people that are excited about closed source software FOSSies?
You're not even making sense anymore.
I want this account deleted.
You're the one with a vested interest in proving something. You pay the bandwidth. Put YOUR money where your mouth is and do it. Pay the bandwidth... lol what a fucking cop out.
So your challenge comes down to one specific machine of YOUR choosing? It has to be that specific machine? I through your challenge was for ANY machine. LOL keep it coming. Moving goal posts are fun!
I want this account deleted.
OMG did you compare Linux to a sailcar? Maybe built by crazy Earl in his basement. And if you want details? happy to give them. Its a CONSUMER OS challenge so only CONSUMER OSES will be used, that means NO Server 2Kx on the Windows side and no RHEL or SLED on the Linux side...simple enough? And the reason i added the camera requirement is because I once had a bozo supposedly "prove" he could beat the challenge with some screencaps...until somebody pointed out the wireless card he was using wasn't even supported in 2007 so it obviously wasn't working in the beginning which then he suddenly talked about how "anybody can use the forums" thus showing what he did was play "google for fixes" and thus failed the challenge.
But the only place its apples to oranges is in your own mind, you say Linux is ready? here is your chance, we'll take ANY consumer version of Linux YOUR choice and put it head to head on the SAME HARDWARE so that there can be NO BIAS. And the reason I don't name the distro is simple, every time I did I got the standard use distro x excuse. Oh Ubuntu doesn't pass? use Knoppix, Knoppix don't pass? use debian, round and round and round it goes there is over 500 distros on distrowatch so a game of use distro x could go on for a dozen years and never get through all the choices for X.
As for why I let you do it? I'm tired of paying for bandwidth so i can rub the truth, which is the current OS model in Linux is TOTALLY BROKEN, into the nose of the community like rubbing a puppy's nose in its mess. As I have said, you want to pay for the bandwidth? I'll be happy to take a Sunday and do it on live cam, I'll take some random laptop out of the shop and do the challenge right there on a live cam for all to see. you can watch as i format, install the OS, make sure the drivers all work, then update and watch it crap itself. But where I live bandwidth costs $1.50 a GB over the cap and since "use distro x" is an endless excuse i have no intention of throwing more money away only to hear "Oh that one didn't work? Well that is YOUR FAULT for not using distro x! See we win" bullshit you have just moved the goalposts just as they do when they scream paid M$ Shill to try to deflect away from the fact they can't pass the challenge.
Again this is about as simple a test as you can come up with, NO multiple monitors, NO funky hardware like capture cards, just a random laptop from any of the major OEMs with the consumer Linux OF YOUR CHOICE. What could be more simple? the fact that you try to make it sound more complex than it is just tells me you know in your heart whichever distro x you choose won't pass muster either.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Except... how old is Ethernet? Did it just get popular last year or something? It has been on every single machine I've seen since broadband Internet connections took over dial-up. How long was that again? It is basic, expected functionality... not working by default. Hey, isn't that what people bitch about with Linux? The complete lack of drivers for something that important or even critical by default, and even a lack of installable XP drivers on Dell's own site (I checked--I was considering dual-booting), is pretty fucking pathetic. That [basic networking support with Ethernet] is one thing that no Linux distribution (or even Windows up to that point) has ever failed me on. And that's pretty damn bad.
And by the way... SATA and Ethernet are interfaces, while hardware and the drivers that run them are not exactly comparable as you seem to be trying to do...
Actually, you are quite wrong. On any Android phone, go to Settings > About device. You will see a "Kernel version" entry: this is the build information for the version of Torvalds' (et al) kernel running that device. Mine (Galaxy S3) says 3.0.31-370274 etc etc etc. Google "3.0.31" and you'll see it is a Linux kernel with a whole lot of forum questions regarding that kernel on various Android devices.
Then hit "Legal information" > "Open source licenses." Right at the top, there should be "/kernel" which will bring you to the actual license for the Linux kernel.
Android is Linux, through and through. That is a fact which seems to have escaped you somehow. Google did not adapt one of the existing distros; they saw the failures and made their own. Android is not shipped like Ubuntu, but it is definitely a distro with its own distribution mechanism, update mechanism, code contribution system, and so on.
Of course I haven't had a video recording for 5 years. Even if I did, I would not bother to upload it for you, since you are so painfully ignorant of the prevalence and excellent acceptance of Linux among non-technical computer users all around the world.
For whatever it is worth, my desktop was loaded with a clean install of Ubuntu 8.04 in May, 2008, right after it was released. I have upgraded faithfully with every release since then, with zero driver difficulties (or any other difficulties requiring command-line intervention) since then. It will be 5 years in just a couple months.
I think you are demanding, unfair, and ignorant. In fact, I doubt you are as familiar with Windows as you claim. Have you ever actually tried to upgrade directly from any version of Windows to another without wiping the drive? Hello major problems! Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's a real crapshoot, and there's no reliable reason why. I've been upgrading Ubuntu installs without clearing the drive for at least 5 years with absolutely zero difficulties on any of them. Huge difference.
Oh, and, ANDROID IS INDEED LINUX! DO YOUR RESEARCH! The most popular mobile platform in the world not only runs on the Torvalds (et al) kernel, but it uses a whole batch of regular open source software on top of it (things like gpsd to run the sweet GPS sensors and so on). I don't know what the ratio is between Google software and regular Linux software, but Android is most definitely a Linux distro.
cej102937
You are actually very wrong in this case. Android is definitely Linux, and the pieces of it that are not completely built in-house are most definitely GPL'd. Check the open source license listing that is distributed with EVERY phone (it's under Settings > About device).
On the front end, you are wrong, too. The app store does indeed allow GPL'd apps to be submitted (unlike, say, Apple's app store). Go to https://play.google.com/apps and search for "GPL."
I'm not an Android developer yet, so I can't comment on whether all of the front-end interface is open source, but I think it is. Perhaps someone else can correct me on this if I am wrong.
You don't have to like it, but it's still true. ANDROID IS LINUX. For fuck's sake, read the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system).
cej102937
Somehow I remember you comparing Linux and Windows.
Let's do the same exercise, but with a Windows box next to it, shall we?
Why would I bother? You have proven yourself to be painfully ignorant about some very basic facts of the computer world (Android), and have an obvious, ugly ax to grind. Even if I did take your challenge, it would do nothing to change your mind. In fact, it SHOULDN'T change your mind, because the truth is that reliability is measured by metrics far larger than one single machine.
And by those metrics, Linux is a winner hands down. In 2005, not so much. In 2013, Linux is winning, and winning at an increasing rate.
LOL!! Now you're telling me Google wrote their kernel from scratch!!!??? LOL. Did you know that Google is upstreaming their changes and as a result, their changes get the same peer review and nudging that the rest of the commits get? They're now rebasing new kernels from Linus's tree for use with Android. They can't use a new kernel without getting outside contributions. It's a two way street, son. "Torvalds futzing" is actually still being included no matter how assertive and loudmouthed you are On the Internet(tm).
Google's not the only one that sends patches for ARM hardware either (in fact ARM architecture support existed before Android). Google didn't provide their own GL stack from scratch. Google didn't "invent" WebKit and it's not a one way street where Google only pulled from WebKit once and never sent patches back.
It's a fact that significant parts of Android are developed outside of Google and it doesn't stop at the Kernel. Google tweaks a few things here and there and puts a development framework on top. It doesn't stand by itself. They provide the development framework and for the rest, they end up riding in the bitch seat upstreaming a good amount of their work like everyone else.
Android would not exist without Linux and Google doesn't live outside of everyone else's development trees.
Just shut up. You're a Windows tech. Stick with that. You sound moronic when you try to tell people how Linux is developed. You're not a developer. You're not even a Linux user. You're an outsider claiming inside knowledge because you read a few forum posts.
I want this account deleted.
Thanks for your explanation.
By natively, I meant "where I feel at home". :) I realize it's a totally subjective thing to say, and that some apps really are native.
cmd+Putty+WinVIM+TortoiseGIT+Pageant+Ruby work pretty well on WinXP/Win7 but they just feel like late add-ons to me, and don't integrate very well with the environment.
On the contrary, yakuake-like terminal+console tabs+vim+zsh+ruby+git+ssh just feel right at home on my Linux/MAC OS X setup.
Nothing? Am I on ignore now? How about you start with hardware that ships with Linux installed. Or are those machines not valid candidates for your "challenge"? Do you have a blog post somewhere that lists all the rules for your challenge in one place?
I want this account deleted.
The ONLY one moving goal posts is YOU. I chose that system simply because its from 2007 and since the tests if for 5 years that would be about as bog standard and typical as you can get. Don't like that system, which would you prefer? I have an AMD quad, an Intel Pentium D, even a couple P4s in the back, which one do YOU want to use?
And YOU are the one that says your OS is ready NOT ME. I have given you a simple test, one that has cost me $300 in bandwidth charges BTW to apply, that PROVES YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT so if you say I'm lying? Here is your chance, take ANY system, YOUR CHOICE, film it and upload...scared? you should be because in the 6 years not a SINGLE UNIT PASSED, not one. Not Debian nor the *Buntus or derivitavies, not Fedora nor PCLOS, not Knoppix or any other supposedly "user friendly distro".
so here is your chance, put up or STFU and sit down because frankly i'm tired of the community's lies and bullshit. Here is a simple test ANYBODY can do with ANY SYSTEM they desire, why won't you step up? I'll tell you why because you KNOW what will happen, you'll apply the updates and Pulse will shit itself, the DEs will get wonky and wireless will go buy bye. Your entire system is a house of cards and this test shows your lies for what they all, total bullshit. Step up or STFU.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
That explains why you click on every article related to Linux... lol troll harder. There are other things on the Internet but you specifically seek out Linux. You wouldn't have clicked this article if you didn't want to get all pissed off and fired up at the "lies and bullshit."
Your challenge is a sham because in the end you'll just call everyone liars and use weasel words like "wonky" that could mean anything.
So you're saying that if I grab a disk with any distribution on it from 2007, install it on any computer, and just run the updater then everything will be totally fucked? Is there another step in there? Where does the $300 dollars in bandwidth come in?
I want this account deleted.
For me, installing Steam on Ubuntu has been an extremely straightforward experience on my non-gaming Dell laptops, but for whatever reason I had not been able to get Ubuntu running on my gaming rig. I woke up this morning, a man on a mission, to find out how I could make this happen. Took three hours of sweat, Google, and forums - finally got it figured out. Apparently Ubuntu's included graphics drivers (including the proprietary ones) just don't do the trick for a GeForce GTX 580. After a separate driver download from Nvidia and installing the kernel headers from repositories I was able to finally make it happen (and I've had this gaming rig for exactly a year to this day).
There are still plenty of folks out there who need to go through some trouble to get Ubuntu to work on their rigs, but it's much better than it used to be and it is so worth it. I'm impressed with how well TF2 and Counter Strike: Source run on Linux and am hoping a large Valve console install base will encourage all developers to port their games over to Ubuntu.
So, now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go look into this "Defender's Quest".
I don't have to say anything, the test if filmed can't be faked since you won't have access to making new time stamps on the video and i doubt you'll be good enough at editing for everyone not to see the jump cuts. You have a simple measure, easy to show as a dipstick on a car, so why are you afraid? Just fire up the hardware manager in whatever DE you have chosen at first boot to show all the hardware is working, then apply the updates, then show the list to see its still working....what is hard about that? And I haven't moved the goalposts, i haven't accused anyone of working for sekret orgs you and your batshit buddies have done that, so the proof is on you. I have given you the most simple test in the world, one frankly rigged in your favor, yet you fear it...is it because you know what will happen? Because taking bog standard laptops from Dell, HP, and Acer i can tell you EXACTLY what happened with over a dozen distros, a broken mess.
You know what is truly sad? here is every rebuttal ever written here to me...note what its called? the circle of the loon, because its a circular argument that never ends. But don't worry I've removed Linux from both my RSS feeds and now from /. as well so please, go back to your giant circlejerking. Won't change the facts, Linux is flatline, nobody wants it, its numbers haven't moved in years Android is owned by Google, and MSFT could put out windows Goatse with smell-o-vision and still have ten times your share because you won't listen, not to users nor OEMs, nope its all circlejerking about how "Nobody knows how to be leet!" They are teh noobs for teh lusers, we are leet!"
So please, enjoy your little fantasy world where anybody gives a rat';s ass, because after 5 years of dealing with the monkey house I sure as fuck don't, If Linux were a company it would have been chap 11 a decade ago, its badly run, no central planning AT ALL, nobody cares about anything but their own little fiefdoms, you should be proud as you copied old Soviet style communism better than I thought anybody ever could, must give the squatter a big old stiffie. Meanwhile the big three will turn the world into locked down cellphones and the people will take it because its the choice of a locked down corporate controlled device that WORKS...or your product. Given that choice is it any wonder Apple is bigger than God now?
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
You'll be back.
I want this account deleted.
Yeah, well, I'll just go ahead and disagree with you: Android uses the Linux kernel, hence it's a Linux distribution, albeit a very specific one (it has a different userland from most other distros).
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Looks like Linux gaming is rising fast on Steam. It is going to pass Mac OS soon and Mac OS support has been on Steam for few years.
Nope, I couldn't get the keywords to stick for some reason from my news feed, I found a new one that I could choose only the sites I like that would let me filter any and all keywords from headlines. I put in KDE, Gnome, Debian, Linux, Ubuntu, I would have put Red hat but the way it works I would have not gotten any article with the word red in it so I'll just have to ignore than one, same as Mint which is also too commonly used in headlines to block.
So please go back to circlejerking over a bash script, the numbers have spoken and Linux can enjoy the company of BeOS and OS/2 and all the other failed operating systems throughout the years, for I have learned common sense will never be applied. Its a damned shame that Shuttleworth didn't just choose BSD as Jobs did, his company might not have ended up bleeding to death but that is what he gets for walking into the monkey house and not expecting all the poo flinging. Enjoy your failure, me I'll be trying to find an easy to automate DE for Windows 9 that can be deployed en masse in case ballmer's fat stupid ass is still in the big chair in 2014.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
You got something on your chin Hairy...
"La la la I'm not listening"
That is you when you claim Android isn't Linux.
"Building on the contributions of the open-source Linux community and more than 300 hardware, software, and carrier partners, Android has rapidly become the fastest-growing mobile OS." http://developer.android.com/about/index.html
"Android consists of a kernel based on Linux kernel version 2.6 and, from Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich onwards, version 3.x" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#Linux
Pull your head out of Ballmers ass and read this http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/11/14/What-Android-Is
In my distro I can rollback drivers and any app with a simple button click at least one version, sometimes 4-5 versions back if I need it. Try that with Windows.
You keep repeating crap that no one else experiences, maybe it is just you? You will feel better if you come to terms with your low IQ, seriously.
You are an amazing concern troll.
Hate to clue you in but Linux runs the world.
The reason you struggle outside MS's wall is that living under Microsoft's thumb makes you stupid. Well, more dumb than you were before, in your case.
"Programmers" that drink from the MS firehose are completely worthless if they step even an inch past the MS approved boundaries.
"Admins" that use nothing but MS crap are equally inept.
Every distro has failed? What the fuck? You do realize that there are plenty of older machines that run Linux for years without issue right?
Unless you have tested every distro for 5 years you are talking out of your ass.
My machine has been running opensuse since 2007 with zero drive wipes, just straight up point the repos to the new URL's and zypper dup. So there ya go six years and counting.
Meanwhile my Windows 7 box slows down every year and last week Microsoft's check disc utility destroyed ntfs "security" descriptors making the system unusable. Of course, all Windows systems slowly rot due to the stupid idea of the registry
Keep sucking on the Ballmer cock, it makes for some hilariously stupid posts from you.
Since Linux is running the world, you should consider the fact that it is you that is incompetent, and not the Linux devs.
Of course, you are just a rabid MS shill that starts frothing at the mouth every time a good story about Linux shows up and not capable of introspection.
Like Ballmer you are a monkey who loves to throw his shit a little too much.
No no no!
Driver issues on Windows is the fault of the HW manufacturer.
Only when the driver issue is on a Linux system is it the fault of the OS.
It is on page 17 of the MS Shill Handbook. Just ask Hairyfeet
I am pretty sure XP SP3 came out around or a little after 2006...
Holy fucking shit, you are one stupid motherfucker. You give your fellow shill Mr. Dee from Cnet a run for his money.
" does Android run Torvalds kernels? NO"
Not that we needed more proof but this shows how fucking retarded you are.
You are telling me that Google built their own Linux clone?
Fucking retard.
It means that the public facing API's rarely change and when they need to you get two years warning minimum. Is that hard to understand?
There are lots of Linux programs written 18 years ago that will still compile and run flawlessly.
How many Win95 apps run of 7 or 8?
It is Windows that often breaks shit from version to version.
You truly are retarded.
As a programmer that uses Ruby quite often, saying Ruby runs on Windows is true but misleading.
There are so many Rubygems that won't even compile(if they have part written in C) or run on Windows. Even if you install Cygwin.
Similar story for most non-MS programming languages.
Windows is just a subpar development platform.
I am still working to get the coveted and rare 5 Troll mod.