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Can Valve's 'Bossless' Company Model Work Elsewhere?

glowend writes "I just listened to a fascinating podcast with Valve's economist-in-residence, Yanis Varoufakis, about the unusual structure of the workplace at Valve where there is no hierarchy or bosses. Teams of software designers join spontaneously to create and ship video games without any top-down supervision. Varoufakis discussed the economics of this Hayekian workplace and how it actually functions alongside Steam — a gaming platform created by Valve. I kept wondering: assuming that his description of Valve is accurate, can this model work for other tech companies?"

20 of 522 comments (clear)

  1. No by GeneralTurgidson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Too many entrenched managers who provide nothing to the company.

    1. Re:No by gweihir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Too many entrenched managers who provide nothing to the company.

      The managers are not the only problem (albeit usually the largest one). Incompetent or unmotivated "craftsmen" (engineers, artists, ...) are the second problem as they will either try to become managers themselves or be unable or unwilling to temporarily assume management functions. And the third problem is anybody with a lust for power, although that often coincides with being incompetent.

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    2. Re:No by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think the problem is not managers/engineers/etc per se. The problem is not the job function so much as the deadwood doing the function. I have known useless engineers, and I have known useless managers, and I have known useless administrative staff. The problem is the people: they are no good at their job and don't care to get better. The problem is, those people need to eat and pay their bills, so they have to have a job somewhere.
      I think a large part of society's ills could be cured with something akin to a basic income that basically pensions off people who don't want to be there so that those of us who do - who are highly motivated and capable - can get on with things. Let the manager who wants to spend all day fishing do exactly that. I want to spend all day building robots and educating students. The work will get done, and our industrial processes can produce enough for everyone.

      --
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    3. Re:No by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The work will get done, and our industrial processes can produce enough for everyone.

      I don't think that's really true. I sure wouldn't be doing that work. I would be doing some work, but it would be work for me, that I enjoy. The world would look like the open source landscape at best. At worst we'd have no garbage collectors.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      so that those of us who do - who are highly motivated and capable

      Actually, I think society's main problem is a bunch of mediocre people who think they are "highly... capable".

      But universal basic income is a sound idea, and modern capitalism's worst fear (how can you enslave those who have choice?), giving me two reasons to love it.

    5. Re:No by ynp7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You haven't really thought it through or you don't understand. The garbage collector would get paid for doing his job, which would be separate from the basic income. Maybe the price of garbage collection goes up to pay the collectors more, but someone would certainly do it.

    6. Re:No by citizenr · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The work will get done, and our industrial processes can produce enough for everyone.

      I don't think that's really true. I sure wouldn't be doing that work. I would be doing some work, but it would be work for me, that I enjoy. The world would look like the open source landscape at best. At worst we'd have no garbage collectors.

      Thats the point, you would be living on basic income in a trailer park doing whatever it is you like to do. Smart capable people would do useful stuff and move civilization ahead. This is one of the scenarios of post scarcity world (goods/food manufactured by automatons leaving people unemployed).
        Plenty of examples in Science fiction literature. From the top of my head I can remember a short story where mandatory state IQ tests determined class you belonged to. Lowest class was forbidden from working and was provided for, higher classes were forced to work to utilize their mental capacity. Story was about a hacker helping people cheat IQ tests so they could classify as higher class and work. Incidentally that hacker had to pay another hacker to hide his own high IQ so he didnt have to work :). I forgot the name of the story :(

      --
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    7. Re:No by davydagger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      we are already enslaved. those who produce the wealth in the first place don't own it at all. someone else fucking does.

      workers are still capable of producing goods and services without bosses.

      bosses cannot produce goods or services without workers.

    8. Re:No by Your.Master · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they stay at home instead of working, then they aren't motivated by the money they could earn.

      Capitalism runs on the assumption that people are motivated by the marginal differences in income between jobs. This continues to operate under the universal basic income scenario. Otherwise, there can only be intra-industry salary competition and never inter-industry.

      This reminds me of an economist's thought experiment -- let's say there are two widgets, a premium one for $200 and a knock-off for $100. The premium one is legitimately better, so you intend to buy that one, but the knock-off would do and if you were tight on money you could get by with that. You will only ever need one of these widgets.

      You get to the store, and actually find that there's an ill-conceived doorcrasher sale. Widgets are all uniformly $100 cheaper. The knock-off is now free and the premium one is now $100. What do you get now?

      A lot of people instinctively say they'd take the knock-off because it's free, but if you're a rational actor you should stick with your original choice, because the difference between the knock-off and the premium one, both in terms of costs and benefits, has not changed at all, whatsoever.

      In reality, people aren't rational, so they will shift to the knock-off sometimes. But we also aren't talking about a one-day-only sale. People want luxuries, so they'll work.

      There have been some positive experiments with this in the past (eg. Canada tried http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome and came out with some pretty positive results, although they knew this was not permanent so that could affect behaviour) and there are lots of places that have a partial basic income guarantee without imploding, though long term full basic income guarantees in otherwise-capitalist-leaning countries are scarce. An experiment in a poorer nation actually registered an increase in economic activity: http://www.bignam.org/BIG_pilot.html.

      I have no doubt there are downsides to this, or even really advocating for it, I'm just trying to counter the "dumbest idea" that you put forward. Like most economic ideas, it's not obviously stupid or obviously smart, because just about nothing about economics is simple.

    9. Re:No by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ok, I'm curious. Let's run the numbers for my home country - Australia. The total taxation rate of GDP is about 22%; our GDP per capita is about $71k. That's about $15k per person. The minimum cost of living in Australia is about $16k per person assuming for a typical family of four. The Mincome experiment showed that people do not stop working on basic incomes, but in fact contribute to produce and to gain higher education. It could be quite possible to set the minimum income to be something like $7.5k per annum per capital (as many people will not need it, if paid a higher wage) and use remaining tax revenue to fund defence, infrastructure and health (which account for about half the budget). It does not appear to be outlandish to me.
      CAVET EMPTOR: this post and its figures were hastily researched using google and are probably deeply flawed and entirely wrong... but they're a starting point for facts-based discussion.

      --
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    10. Re:No by mdielmann · · Score: 5, Funny

      This is a silly example 200/100 = 2x 100/0 = Infinite

      This reminds me of a joke I heard.

      An accountant and an economist are walking in the park together. As they pass a pond they see a frog. The economist says to the accountant, "I'll pay you $40 to lick that frog." The accountant thinks about it for a moment, agrees to lick the frog, and the economist gives him his $40. As they continue, they see another frog, and the account says to the economist, "I'll pay you $40 to lick that frog." The economist agrees, licks the frog, and gets his $40. The accountant then says, "Well, what was the point of that? Now we've both licked a frog and have nothing to show for it!" The economist replies, "True, but the economy has seen an increase of $80!"

      So, after a lot of reading, I've come to the conclusion that economists aren't very rational people.

      --
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    11. Re:No by drakaan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're talking about welfare for all, working or not, then the question is where that money comes from. Is there some endless hole of wealth that is supposed to prop us up? I understand the intent, but the mechanics of this idea have either been very poorly explained or won't work any better than a traditional ponzi scheme.

      --
      "Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
  2. It must work.. by leathered · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just look at the number of Half-Life games they churn out. I haven't even finished HL6 and HL7 is coming out next week!

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    1. Re:It must work.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      They moved into the lucrative virtual-hat selling business.

  3. Like Most Companies? by Art+Challenor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't this how most companies work? In order to get anything done, you form an ad-hoc group of capable people to work on a project.

    Seems to me the only difference is that in a normal company that group then has to figure out how to outflank the management hierarchy in order to complete the project, whereas this model skips that step.

  4. The game of Survivor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you think about how they describe pushing out people that "don't fit" by group consensus, you quickly begin to see how such a workplace is actually fairly toxic. Everyone would be trying hard to get along and not piss anyone off, because, like on the reality show Survivor, once the team gets a bug in their bonnet for you, you're gone, despite your productivity or ethics. It also leads to monocultures - people will want to hire and work with people like them, the complete opposite of diversity hiring. I would be interested to see the cultural vectors for Valve. I'm betting they don't have a lot of ethnic minorities or women working there.

  5. Valve Handbook by bwhaley · · Score: 5, Informative

    Valve addresses this very question in the Handbook for New Employees:

    Q: If all this stuff has worked well for us, why doesn’t every company
    work this way?

    A: Well, it’s really hard. Mainly because, from day one, it requires a
    commitment to hiring in a way that’s very different from the way most
    companies hire. It also requires the discipline to make the design of
    the company more important than any one short-term business goal.
    And it requires a great deal of freedom from outside pressure—being
    self-funded was key. And having a founder who was confident enough
    to build this kind of place is rare, indeed.

    Another reason that it’s hard to run a company this way is that it
    requires vigilance. It’s a one-way trip if the core values change, and
    maintaining them requires the full commitment of everyone—
    especially those who’ve been here the longest. For “senior” people
    at most companies, accumulating more power and/or money over
    time happens by adopting a more hierarchical culture.

    --
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  6. It requires the right kind people by gweihir · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you have the right kind of people, namely competent, motivated, result oriented professionals, that do not care one bit for power, but are willing to assume it temporarily in order to take responsibility for a specific part of a project (only to relinquish it freely afterwards), then this works very well indeed.

    The two reasons for people to go into management are absent here
    1. Incompetence: Doing management is often a way for people that have no real skills with regard to the product being made to join or stay in an organization.
    2. Lust for power: The other primary motivation for going into management is wanting to tell others what to do.

    In bad managers (the predominant type), both things combine. Good engineers, artists, writers, etc. almost universally want to practice their craft and get better at it. Doing any management-like function is something they will only do willingly (and temporarily) for the greater good and never as their sole function. If you have such a pool of people, the only permanent (but critical) management function to remain is to make sure nobody incompetent at or not passionate for their (non-management) job and nobody with lust for power joins the team. People that are passionate about what they do are easy to identify. Skill is harder, but doable if you invest some time to find out. Lust for power is still harder, but people that have gotten good as their primary competency rarely have it as it gets into the way.

    This also means that most companies cannot use this model, as they have been taken over a long time ago with those of no valuable skills and/or a craving for power and, from my observation, usually have quite a few incompetent non-managers in addition.

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  7. No by astralagos · · Score: 5, Interesting
    If you read Varoufakis essay pointed to there, he'll note that Valve's own management doesn't believe the company will be able to scale. More importantly, he notes that the employment process is self-selecting, and that's the rub. I found a Forbes article which estimates that Google makes a profit of 350k per head, while Valve's is in the 87.5 million per head -- that's an estimate, but even if it's one twentieth, it's still ridiculous. Valve is in a unique position due to steam -- its a publishing house which effectively monopolizes PC digital distribution. They roll in so much money that they can run the company as an anarcho-syndicalist commune, a democracy, or by pulling suggestions out of a hat. They're very lucky that way and rolled the dice well -- most game studios pushing for artistic integrity have ended up as EA subdivisions for a good reason.

    Running a real company or a real government requires dealing with people who don't want to be there. Not everybody wants a career, some people just want jobs. They want to punch the clock and go home. Some people steal habitually from the till. Had I my druthers, I'd spend all day at home reading, and I'm considered a sociopathic workaholic. Some people are going to cheat. Some people are going to lie on their interviews. The test of any organization isn't how it does when it's doing well, it's how it does when its under extreme stress. Valve hasn't been under extreme stress, so the question of the effectiveness of their organization is effectively mooted. We can look to other game companies with strong egos (Origin for example, or Ion Storm) and get a good idea, though.

  8. Yes, a bossless workplace can work. by greenguy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There's an entire business model based on operating a business with no boss -- it's called a worker cooperative. As a founder and member of one, and a friend of dozens more, I'm here to say that it works.

    The existence of one bossless model makes it easy to believe that others could exist. The presence of an authority figure, or of any kind of hierarchy, is not a requirement for business success. This isn't speculation -- there's proof in black and white.

    --
    What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?