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Can Valve's 'Bossless' Company Model Work Elsewhere?

glowend writes "I just listened to a fascinating podcast with Valve's economist-in-residence, Yanis Varoufakis, about the unusual structure of the workplace at Valve where there is no hierarchy or bosses. Teams of software designers join spontaneously to create and ship video games without any top-down supervision. Varoufakis discussed the economics of this Hayekian workplace and how it actually functions alongside Steam — a gaming platform created by Valve. I kept wondering: assuming that his description of Valve is accurate, can this model work for other tech companies?"

53 of 522 comments (clear)

  1. No by GeneralTurgidson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Too many entrenched managers who provide nothing to the company.

    1. Re:No by gweihir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Too many entrenched managers who provide nothing to the company.

      The managers are not the only problem (albeit usually the largest one). Incompetent or unmotivated "craftsmen" (engineers, artists, ...) are the second problem as they will either try to become managers themselves or be unable or unwilling to temporarily assume management functions. And the third problem is anybody with a lust for power, although that often coincides with being incompetent.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:No by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think the problem is not managers/engineers/etc per se. The problem is not the job function so much as the deadwood doing the function. I have known useless engineers, and I have known useless managers, and I have known useless administrative staff. The problem is the people: they are no good at their job and don't care to get better. The problem is, those people need to eat and pay their bills, so they have to have a job somewhere.
      I think a large part of society's ills could be cured with something akin to a basic income that basically pensions off people who don't want to be there so that those of us who do - who are highly motivated and capable - can get on with things. Let the manager who wants to spend all day fishing do exactly that. I want to spend all day building robots and educating students. The work will get done, and our industrial processes can produce enough for everyone.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
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    3. Re:No by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The work will get done, and our industrial processes can produce enough for everyone.

      I don't think that's really true. I sure wouldn't be doing that work. I would be doing some work, but it would be work for me, that I enjoy. The world would look like the open source landscape at best. At worst we'd have no garbage collectors.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      so that those of us who do - who are highly motivated and capable

      Actually, I think society's main problem is a bunch of mediocre people who think they are "highly... capable".

      But universal basic income is a sound idea, and modern capitalism's worst fear (how can you enslave those who have choice?), giving me two reasons to love it.

    5. Re:No by ynp7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You haven't really thought it through or you don't understand. The garbage collector would get paid for doing his job, which would be separate from the basic income. Maybe the price of garbage collection goes up to pay the collectors more, but someone would certainly do it.

    6. Re:No by citizenr · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The work will get done, and our industrial processes can produce enough for everyone.

      I don't think that's really true. I sure wouldn't be doing that work. I would be doing some work, but it would be work for me, that I enjoy. The world would look like the open source landscape at best. At worst we'd have no garbage collectors.

      Thats the point, you would be living on basic income in a trailer park doing whatever it is you like to do. Smart capable people would do useful stuff and move civilization ahead. This is one of the scenarios of post scarcity world (goods/food manufactured by automatons leaving people unemployed).
        Plenty of examples in Science fiction literature. From the top of my head I can remember a short story where mandatory state IQ tests determined class you belonged to. Lowest class was forbidden from working and was provided for, higher classes were forced to work to utilize their mental capacity. Story was about a hacker helping people cheat IQ tests so they could classify as higher class and work. Incidentally that hacker had to pay another hacker to hide his own high IQ so he didnt have to work :). I forgot the name of the story :(

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    7. Re:No by citizenr · · Score: 3, Funny

      We can start with "Human Resources"

      You cant in US. HR is not to help you work more efficient. HR is there to shield corporation from LAWSUITS. They can point a finger and say 'mister X was reprimanded by HR for grabbing women asses and ejaculating into water cooler".

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    8. Re:No by davydagger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      we are already enslaved. those who produce the wealth in the first place don't own it at all. someone else fucking does.

      workers are still capable of producing goods and services without bosses.

      bosses cannot produce goods or services without workers.

    9. Re:No by Your.Master · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they stay at home instead of working, then they aren't motivated by the money they could earn.

      Capitalism runs on the assumption that people are motivated by the marginal differences in income between jobs. This continues to operate under the universal basic income scenario. Otherwise, there can only be intra-industry salary competition and never inter-industry.

      This reminds me of an economist's thought experiment -- let's say there are two widgets, a premium one for $200 and a knock-off for $100. The premium one is legitimately better, so you intend to buy that one, but the knock-off would do and if you were tight on money you could get by with that. You will only ever need one of these widgets.

      You get to the store, and actually find that there's an ill-conceived doorcrasher sale. Widgets are all uniformly $100 cheaper. The knock-off is now free and the premium one is now $100. What do you get now?

      A lot of people instinctively say they'd take the knock-off because it's free, but if you're a rational actor you should stick with your original choice, because the difference between the knock-off and the premium one, both in terms of costs and benefits, has not changed at all, whatsoever.

      In reality, people aren't rational, so they will shift to the knock-off sometimes. But we also aren't talking about a one-day-only sale. People want luxuries, so they'll work.

      There have been some positive experiments with this in the past (eg. Canada tried http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome and came out with some pretty positive results, although they knew this was not permanent so that could affect behaviour) and there are lots of places that have a partial basic income guarantee without imploding, though long term full basic income guarantees in otherwise-capitalist-leaning countries are scarce. An experiment in a poorer nation actually registered an increase in economic activity: http://www.bignam.org/BIG_pilot.html.

      I have no doubt there are downsides to this, or even really advocating for it, I'm just trying to counter the "dumbest idea" that you put forward. Like most economic ideas, it's not obviously stupid or obviously smart, because just about nothing about economics is simple.

    10. Re:No by BosstonesOwn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is a real need for dedicated IT staff.Especially if your building customers environments.

      I'd hate to say it but I have seen this first hand. Firstly security is ignored, and secondly there has to e a level of over site.

      Im a systems admin for a fortune 500 and in charge of security, you don't even know how many times "staff" have setup a replica of the customers environment and missed the security aspect or even forgot huge parts of the environment or even misconfigured half of it and we could not replicate bugs. My team goes in and notices this stuff off the bat.

      There needs to be dedicated staff because core infrastructure should not be pieced together, It should be engineered, when not properly engineered and just thrown together based on what people want.... This usually ends up ina giant mess, which dedicated staff are called in to unravel and repair.

      --
      This package Does Not Contain a Winner
    11. Re:No by buybuydandavis · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't know about capitalism's fears (does an ism have fears?), but probably the two major free market economists in the 20th century were for a guaranteed basic income - Hayek and Friedman. Charles Murray recently came out with a book on it.

      Ending the regulatory/welfare state is the greatest fear of government apparatchiks and central planners.

    12. Re:No by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ok, I'm curious. Let's run the numbers for my home country - Australia. The total taxation rate of GDP is about 22%; our GDP per capita is about $71k. That's about $15k per person. The minimum cost of living in Australia is about $16k per person assuming for a typical family of four. The Mincome experiment showed that people do not stop working on basic incomes, but in fact contribute to produce and to gain higher education. It could be quite possible to set the minimum income to be something like $7.5k per annum per capital (as many people will not need it, if paid a higher wage) and use remaining tax revenue to fund defence, infrastructure and health (which account for about half the budget). It does not appear to be outlandish to me.
      CAVET EMPTOR: this post and its figures were hastily researched using google and are probably deeply flawed and entirely wrong... but they're a starting point for facts-based discussion.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    13. Re:No by DKlineburg · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm not sure if you meant this, but I know someone who doesn't work. Why? Because if they did they would loose there government funded housing. To make up the difference would require a great job. Now, do I expect that person to ever do a great job? No, but I think in this one case, if they were guaranteed a livable income, they might go find some little job for a little extra. I used to be way on one side, I'm much more open to the idea of listening to what people have to say. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think America is doing great right now; whatever you attribute it to.

      --
      Memory is deceptive because it is colored by today's events. - Albert Einstein
    14. Re:No by spiffmastercow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The CxOs are nothing without the engineers who design their products, and the engineers are nothing without workers to build the products they design. And managers generally function to keep everybody on track. Ever worked on a dev team with no manager? I have, and nothing got done until they finallt hired a manager.

    15. Re:No by Snocone · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep. There's so many poverty traps in the way benefits are lost that it's basically impossible for anyone with two kids to ever make a financial case for joining the workforce without questionably high valuation of downstream wage increases. And not doing so, of course, absolutely guarantees poverty.

      The immediate reaction is well scale this and scale that so that there's always marginal utility to working harder, but the patchwork of eligibilities and overlapping jurisdictions makes that darn near impossible to do adequately, and even attempting it an easily gamed bureaucratic nightmare.

      Switzerland is usually a good place to look at how a society manages to reconcile libertarian ideals with communitarian practicality, and if I understand correctly the way they've squared this particular circle is that families are responsible for a person's welfare before the State steps in, and if you can assume a traditional family structure and a sense of shame in not being able to provide for yourself as is still a fairly good assumption in Switzerland, that reduces the problem down to the point where the burden on the public purse is not overly significant.

      However, trying to follow that model in America would be rather problematic. If there's any sense of shame at all left in robbing your fellow citizens by means of government, it sure isn't evident anywhere.

    16. Re:No by mdielmann · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But universal basic income is a sound idea,

      No, it's one of the dumbest ideas I've seen spread across the Internet lately.

      and modern capitalism's worst fear (how can you enslave those who have choice?), giving me two reasons to love it.

      How are you going to give a 'universal basic income' to everyone without enslaving those who produce that wealth in the first place? They have a choice: until you send them to the inevitable gulags, they can say 'screw you' and stay at home instead of working.

      I suppose you'd rather spend the money on these shiftless people via private industries taking the burden of under-performers, and pay for additional policing and prisons to deal with the people who aren't suited or willing to work to support themselves? That sounds like a much more economical solution. Oh right, taxes are being used to deal with those issues already.

      Someone here has a sig about taxes being the price of civilization. There is a balance between Dane geld and social support. The people who aren't willing or able to fit into the normal molds of civilization are going to have a cost one way or another. I personally prefer a better method than letting them freeze or starve to death in the streets.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    17. Re:No by mdielmann · · Score: 5, Funny

      This is a silly example 200/100 = 2x 100/0 = Infinite

      This reminds me of a joke I heard.

      An accountant and an economist are walking in the park together. As they pass a pond they see a frog. The economist says to the accountant, "I'll pay you $40 to lick that frog." The accountant thinks about it for a moment, agrees to lick the frog, and the economist gives him his $40. As they continue, they see another frog, and the account says to the economist, "I'll pay you $40 to lick that frog." The economist agrees, licks the frog, and gets his $40. The accountant then says, "Well, what was the point of that? Now we've both licked a frog and have nothing to show for it!" The economist replies, "True, but the economy has seen an increase of $80!"

      So, after a lot of reading, I've come to the conclusion that economists aren't very rational people.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    18. Re:No by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Insightful

      CEO's aren't worth anything?

      One word "Nokia". How are they doing since they got that new CEO? A bad worker or engineer can fuck up a hell of alot less than director and certainly a CEO.

    19. Re:No by psycho12345 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem is that everything after Half Life 2 Episode 2 is not a Valve game, they were indie games that pitched their idea and got funding from Valve. So that puts the last actual in house developed game by Valve around 2005.

    20. Re:No by drakaan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're talking about welfare for all, working or not, then the question is where that money comes from. Is there some endless hole of wealth that is supposed to prop us up? I understand the intent, but the mechanics of this idea have either been very poorly explained or won't work any better than a traditional ponzi scheme.

      --
      "Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
    21. Re:No by TFAFalcon · · Score: 4, Funny

      They each got something from the experience - the entertainment of seeing the other guy lick a frog. And they also owe the government some taxes for the 40 bucks they made.

    22. Re:No by Omestes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Perhaps. I might do that for the first year, but then I'd be bored again.

      The thing is, in a hypothetical future give everyone a living wage, with enough money to basically be the equivalent of today's middle class, but don't bar them from making money doing other things, if others find it valuable.

        Though in the way this idea is commonly used, it says that we all will end up doing useful labor anyway, since we can't stand being idle. I find this absurd, though it might hold true for Americans, since we inherited a fair amount of our work ethic from our Protestant forebears. For the rest of the world? I'm sure they'd be content to sit on their butts, and spend time with their families.

      Hell, I'm not even sure that I'd do anything useful. I might devote my full time to pastimes I love, or just sit on my ass eating cheetos and playing video games... Who knows?

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    23. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is a silly example
      200/100 = 2x
      100/0 = Infinite

      This reminds me of a joke I heard.

      An accountant and an economist are walking in the park together. As they pass a pond they see a frog. The economist says to the accountant, "I'll pay you $40 to lick that frog." The accountant thinks about it for a moment, agrees to lick the frog, and the economist gives him his $40. As they continue, they see another frog, and the account says to the economist, "I'll pay you $40 to lick that frog." The economist agrees, licks the frog, and gets his $40. The accountant then says, "Well, what was the point of that? Now we've both licked a frog and have nothing to show for it!" The economist replies, "True, but the economy has seen an increase of $80!"

      So, after a lot of reading, I've come to the conclusion that economists aren't very rational people.

      $80 worth of entertainment value has been added, the economist is right.

    24. Re:No by bosah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Heh, a Dev team that accomplished nothing without a manager is a dev team I'd never want to manage.

    25. Re:No by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He's talking about a "post-scarcity" scenario - which basically means it's not applicable now, nor any time in the conceivable future.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    26. Re:No by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not new. Here in the Netherlands we have a system that provides for the bare necessities of life if you are fired. It works.

      If the employees aren't constantly afraid they may get fired most do not work less. Most will work better. Fear is a really bad long term motivator. Employees who are afraid have bad concentration. They tend to focus on the possibility of unemployment.

      When trying to get into the workforce in this economic climate I have been temporarily assigned at different companies. Some went through a rough spot (they expected that, that's why they only employed new workers on a temporary basis). If fear were a good motivator then people would have been working harder when the troubles became apparent, but that's not what I saw. The average efficiency of these engineers fell. Even with the securities that The Netherlands offer. It is hard to focus if you aren't sure about the future. Fear eats away at most people.

      Then again, some people do not work if they can avoid it. But are they ever going to be good employees? Are they going to work more than they need to prevent getting fired? They'll feel like slaves. Living in fear, only working to prevent the repercussions of not working.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  2. It must work.. by leathered · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just look at the number of Half-Life games they churn out. I haven't even finished HL6 and HL7 is coming out next week!

    --
    For all intensive porpoises your a bunch of rediculous loosers
    1. Re:It must work.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      They moved into the lucrative virtual-hat selling business.

    2. Re:It must work.. by captjc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is slow, a memory hog, and the web browser takes forever to load (especially the store page). Half of the updates seem to try to reapply themselves every time I open Steam.

      Steam may not be the worst program in the world, but it is far from perfect.

      --
      Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
  3. Yes by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But only on Valve Time.

  4. Like Most Companies? by Art+Challenor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't this how most companies work? In order to get anything done, you form an ad-hoc group of capable people to work on a project.

    Seems to me the only difference is that in a normal company that group then has to figure out how to outflank the management hierarchy in order to complete the project, whereas this model skips that step.

    1. Re:Like Most Companies? by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately very true. But it is worse: There are quite a few companies where this is not possible. How do you think really large and important projects fail?

      --
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    2. Re:Like Most Companies? by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The "bossless" part is just a bit of hyperbole. _Someone_ is going to be hiring and firing. It probably means it's not a strict hierarchical hand out of duties (which is actually pretty rare many places), but there's still someone involved with making sure that all the money being spent will lead to an actual product that gets released on time, even if that person isn't constantly applying pressure.

    3. Re:Like Most Companies? by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 4, Informative

      http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1074301/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf I think you should read the handbook before deciding you know more about their hyperbole than they do.

  5. Theory Y organizations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    WL Gore & Associates, which makes Gore-tex and applies the similar technology across dozens of other industries from medical devices to space suits and military gear, also operates as a (very successful) Theory Y organization.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_X_and_theory_Y#Theory_Y

  6. The game of Survivor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you think about how they describe pushing out people that "don't fit" by group consensus, you quickly begin to see how such a workplace is actually fairly toxic. Everyone would be trying hard to get along and not piss anyone off, because, like on the reality show Survivor, once the team gets a bug in their bonnet for you, you're gone, despite your productivity or ethics. It also leads to monocultures - people will want to hire and work with people like them, the complete opposite of diversity hiring. I would be interested to see the cultural vectors for Valve. I'm betting they don't have a lot of ethnic minorities or women working there.

  7. Valve Handbook by bwhaley · · Score: 5, Informative

    Valve addresses this very question in the Handbook for New Employees:

    Q: If all this stuff has worked well for us, why doesn’t every company
    work this way?

    A: Well, it’s really hard. Mainly because, from day one, it requires a
    commitment to hiring in a way that’s very different from the way most
    companies hire. It also requires the discipline to make the design of
    the company more important than any one short-term business goal.
    And it requires a great deal of freedom from outside pressure—being
    self-funded was key. And having a founder who was confident enough
    to build this kind of place is rare, indeed.

    Another reason that it’s hard to run a company this way is that it
    requires vigilance. It’s a one-way trip if the core values change, and
    maintaining them requires the full commitment of everyone—
    especially those who’ve been here the longest. For “senior” people
    at most companies, accumulating more power and/or money over
    time happens by adopting a more hierarchical culture.

    --
    "I either want less corruption, or more chance
    to participate in it." -- Ashleigh Brilliant
    1. Re:Valve Handbook by SeaFox · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Eventually, the folks working at Valve will end up getting married, buying houses, having kids, etc. etc. and will realize that their income in this communal culture is hardly enough. At that time, they will either leave for other (traditional) companies where performance is rewarded with better pay and better positions,

      If this is truly just about the money what's to stop Valve from giving bonuses based on merit or incremental pay increases for seniority? Experience is worth money, too. It's not a requirement they have to move up into any sort of supervisory position to be rewarded financially for working hard and showing dedication to their company. The idea that everyone in a certain position should be paid the same range is very hierarchical itself. I suspect it was formed by the same middle-management types getting butt-hurt over the idea that someone in a position "below" them was making more money than they were, completely ignoring whether the engineers have to work harder or make a greater or less contribution to the company overall.

  8. No, but... by Sparton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The short answer is no.

    The long answer is probably no, as you need a certain mix of incredibly talented people with very specific attributes. Valve is notorious for only hiring the absolute best, going for those with wide specialist knowledge (but shallow knowledge of all other aspects of game development... some kind of "T" metaphor is used by them?), and ensuring everyone they hire can be an effective leader/is capable of following an effective leader when needs be. And you can't just have a few people with those attributes; everyone in the company has to be like that.

    If you can hire only people that meet the above qualifications, then sure, you could make another Valve. But it's a very difficult (or at least expensive) proposition, and no doubt incredibly challenging to scale.

  9. It requires the right kind people by gweihir · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you have the right kind of people, namely competent, motivated, result oriented professionals, that do not care one bit for power, but are willing to assume it temporarily in order to take responsibility for a specific part of a project (only to relinquish it freely afterwards), then this works very well indeed.

    The two reasons for people to go into management are absent here
    1. Incompetence: Doing management is often a way for people that have no real skills with regard to the product being made to join or stay in an organization.
    2. Lust for power: The other primary motivation for going into management is wanting to tell others what to do.

    In bad managers (the predominant type), both things combine. Good engineers, artists, writers, etc. almost universally want to practice their craft and get better at it. Doing any management-like function is something they will only do willingly (and temporarily) for the greater good and never as their sole function. If you have such a pool of people, the only permanent (but critical) management function to remain is to make sure nobody incompetent at or not passionate for their (non-management) job and nobody with lust for power joins the team. People that are passionate about what they do are easy to identify. Skill is harder, but doable if you invest some time to find out. Lust for power is still harder, but people that have gotten good as their primary competency rarely have it as it gets into the way.

    This also means that most companies cannot use this model, as they have been taken over a long time ago with those of no valuable skills and/or a craving for power and, from my observation, usually have quite a few incompetent non-managers in addition.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:It requires the right kind people by tompaulco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The two reasons for people to go into management are absent here 1. Incompetence: Doing management is often a way for people that have no real skills with regard to the product being made to join or stay in an organization. 2. Lust for power: The other primary motivation for going into management is wanting to tell others what to do.

      In bad managers (the predominant type), both things combine. Good engineers, artists, writers, etc. almost universally want to practice their craft and get better at it. Doing any management-like function is something they will only do willingly (and temporarily) for the greater good and never as their sole function. If you have such a pool of people, the only permanent (but critical) management function to remain is to make sure nobody incompetent at or not passionate for their (non-management) job and nobody with lust for power joins the team. People that are passionate about what they do are easy to identify. Skill is harder, but doable if you invest some time to find out. Lust for power is still harder, but people that have gotten good as their primary competency rarely have it as it gets into the way.

      This also means that most companies cannot use this model, as they have been taken over a long time ago with those of no valuable skills and/or a craving for power and, from my observation, usually have quite a few incompetent non-managers in addition.

      I submit that the most common reason why technical people go into management is not listed. That is: HR puts an arbitrary cap on what technical people can make and it is less than what managers make. In order to progress in your career and make more money, you have to go into management, and therefor remove yourself from the productivity pool. It seems counter-intuitive, but most everything that companies do is counter-intuitive.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    2. Re:It requires the right kind people by Phrogman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is another reason for going into management. Apparently there is considerable 'ageism' out there in the tech industry. If you don't have management experience by a certain age, you end up getting sidelined because the non-tech people tend to hire younger developers for development positions (This seems to be the position I find myself in at the moment). Younger developers are seen as more exploitable (longer hours, less pay, no benefits etc) over more experienced employees who will expect to command higher wages.

      --
      "The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
    3. Re:It requires the right kind people by gizmonic · · Score: 3, Informative

      Have you ever worked for a Fortune 500 company, or any company with more than 10k employees spread across several states?

      Most companies adopt pay grades, and assign certain pay grades to certain job titles. This is your base salary range, which is then adjusted by the cost of living for your location. You have to make at least the minimum of the range, and can never make more than the maximum. The only way to go up once you've capped out, is to get a new job title (ie, promotion).

      When a company is faced with a large number of employees, that becomes the easiest way to make sure people are being paid fairly across the board. It doesn't matter what race, gender, ethnicity, etc, you are; if you are Job Title A at Pay Grade 15, you will always be making between $x and $y.

      I'm not saying it's the best solution, but it is dead simple, easy to implement and about as bullet-proof from lawsuits as you can get. Could they come up with something better? Most likely. But if this works, why spend time and effort on something that may not (at the same time opening you up to discriminatory salary lawsuits)?

      Anyway, none of that is an argument FOR the practice, just an explanation of why it exists.

      --
      WWJD?
      JWRTFM!
  10. Re:But who would build the desks? by cheater512 · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Welcome to the company! Here is your Allen key."

  11. No by astralagos · · Score: 5, Interesting
    If you read Varoufakis essay pointed to there, he'll note that Valve's own management doesn't believe the company will be able to scale. More importantly, he notes that the employment process is self-selecting, and that's the rub. I found a Forbes article which estimates that Google makes a profit of 350k per head, while Valve's is in the 87.5 million per head -- that's an estimate, but even if it's one twentieth, it's still ridiculous. Valve is in a unique position due to steam -- its a publishing house which effectively monopolizes PC digital distribution. They roll in so much money that they can run the company as an anarcho-syndicalist commune, a democracy, or by pulling suggestions out of a hat. They're very lucky that way and rolled the dice well -- most game studios pushing for artistic integrity have ended up as EA subdivisions for a good reason.

    Running a real company or a real government requires dealing with people who don't want to be there. Not everybody wants a career, some people just want jobs. They want to punch the clock and go home. Some people steal habitually from the till. Had I my druthers, I'd spend all day at home reading, and I'm considered a sociopathic workaholic. Some people are going to cheat. Some people are going to lie on their interviews. The test of any organization isn't how it does when it's doing well, it's how it does when its under extreme stress. Valve hasn't been under extreme stress, so the question of the effectiveness of their organization is effectively mooted. We can look to other game companies with strong egos (Origin for example, or Ion Storm) and get a good idea, though.

  12. Nope by Michalson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Valve has been in the unique position of having some hit titles in the past that they had good publishing deals on. That's given them the financial cushion to run things however they wanted with whomever they wanted, without any of those pesky obligations most developers have to meet to pay the bills. And then of course they stumbled onto Steam, the patching platform turned online store where they get a cut of all the other developers profits.

    To highlight a similar scenario, 3D Realms was able to dick around for almost 15 years (1996-2009) thanks to the big pot of cash they had from the first Duke 3D game and a few farmed out expansions. We know for sure now that those years where not spent under some masterful system of management creating the most polished game ever, they where terribly managed years in which the same game was reinvented every 4-6 months everytime Broussard saw a new game.

    Valve management is certainly not the disaster that was 3D Realms, but at the same time it's very hard to apply their near-zero management style without also having access to their near-zero financial obligations. Valve can afford to mess around in the kitchen for years tossing meal after meal into the garbage until they have something they like. Other developers have to feed their family tonight.

    So I guess what I'm saying is that regardless of whether the bossless model works for Valve, other companies have to actually produce games on time and on budget. Where exactly is Half Life 3...

  13. Re:Fairy Tales... by rudy_wayne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who authorized all the recent "layoffs" ?

    Exactly.

    The claim that there are "no bosses" is complete rubbish. There has to be a few people in charge who make decisions and act as the final authority when a group of people cannot agree about something. Otherwise, nothing would ever get done due to the fact that people are horribly imperfect.

    Should we hire this person? What if the "group consensus" is that they don't like him because of his race? Who's going to tell them thats illegal?
    Do we need to buy some new servers? What should we buy? How much should we charge for this latest game?

    Somebody has to make those decisions. And a few million more. They might not actually have a job title with "boss" or "manager" in it, but they are still bosses and managers.

  14. Yes, a bossless workplace can work. by greenguy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There's an entire business model based on operating a business with no boss -- it's called a worker cooperative. As a founder and member of one, and a friend of dozens more, I'm here to say that it works.

    The existence of one bossless model makes it easy to believe that others could exist. The presence of an authority figure, or of any kind of hierarchy, is not a requirement for business success. This isn't speculation -- there's proof in black and white.

    --
    What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
  15. Homo Faber by Capsaicin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Quite an interesting comparation because then, how is it that the vast majority of companies are governed by Communism, just the Soviet Russia style?

    It's an interesting comparison because the basic idea behind communism was that fundamentally the same as that behind Theory Y style organisations. The idea, that is, that left to their own devices, without the imposition of formal authority (remember that in theory 'communism' was to be a stateless and non-hierarchical society), humans will be self-motivated and express themselves by what they produce. You will recall from your reading of Marx, that one of the great criticisms communists levelled at capitalist production methods (Taylorism), is that the assembly line robbed the factory worker of their human identity by 'alienating' them from the products of their own labour. For Marx you are what you make.

    just the Soviet Russia style?

    OP wrote about "Communism on paper," so a comparison with Soviet Russia (which never claimed to have a communist system in place anyway) is a little unfair. I do agree, however, that the human management in the Soviet state seems to have a more in common (and if I understand it this is your point) with that in the majority of modern corporations, than with this self-motivated pride in one's own work approach.

    --
    Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
  16. Because projects need project managers by raymorris · · Score: 4, Informative

    My experience is that people don't show up on day one knowing exactly what needs to be done. Someone has to keep track of which parts of the project need to be done. That "someone" who keeps track of things is a project MANAGER. A skilled, experienced tech in that role is good. They are more valuable managing the project than writing code. To get me to take on that stress, you have to pay me more. That's two reasons why I do management - because it has to be done and someone is willing to pay me more to manage coders than to be a coder.

    Within a decent sized project, you'll have less experienced or less knowledgeable people. They'll need some management by more knowledgeable people guiding them. As much as I would like to just code all day, SOMEONE has to point out to the new person that copying and pasting the same code in six different places causes problems.

    While the project manager is busy with the $800,000 project, someone elese has to think acout how that fits into the organization's $12million total budget and the five year plan. Otherwise, you may win the battle but lose the war, you may succeed at doing the wrong things. Your best and brightest people are a lot more valuable making five-year and ten-year $xx million decisions than having the best people writing "while" loops. I prefer to just work on algorithms, but someone needs to plan for what happens when this three-year contract is over.

    It's not a power trip. It's a job someone needs to do. Heck, most of the management I do now is for a non-profit where I don't get paid and the managing board resented by those too lazy/apathetic to take on any responsibilities themselves. I do it simply because it needs to be done, or the organization would fail in it's mission.

  17. Re:How about the last person? by nadaou · · Score: 3

    I like this company.

    --
    ~.~
    I'm a peripheral visionary.
  18. Capitalism is broken by symbolset · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Capitalism, communism, socialism: all the financial models and systems are broken now by a thing not anticipated by their models: plenty.

    When food is limited it makes sense to limit it to those who contribute to the commonweal. When it is so plentiful that we plow half of it back into the ground to keep the price up, and throw half of the rest away - not so much. Likewise with shelter, clothing, all the basic needs. It makes sense to leave some homeless in the winter to freeze to death when there is no room in built homes - but of that now there is no lack. Money is just a proxy for production units.

    We have at some estimates 40% of our able population idle for the simple reason that they're not required to produce what we need. That is a serious problem because if we don't figure it out when that figure hits 50% they will be the majority. It's also an opportunity, as these folk are quite capable and eager to produce. The one who figures out how to empower them to produce a social good will be canonized.

    We need a new model.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.