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Physicists Discover a Way Around Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle
Hugh Pickens writes writes "Science Daily Headlines reports that researchers have applied a recently developed technique to directly measure the polarization states of light overcoming some important challenges of Heisenberg's famous Uncertainty Principle and demonstrating that it is possible to measure key related variables, known as 'conjugate' variables, of a quantum particle or state directly. Such direct measurements of the wave-function had long seemed impossible because of a key tenet of the uncertainty principle — the idea that certain properties of a quantum system could be known only poorly if certain other related properties were known with precision. 'The reason it wasn't thought possible to measure two conjugate variables directly was because measuring one would destroy the wave-function before the other one could be measured,' says co-author Jonathan Leach. The direct measurement technique employs a 'trick' to measure the first property in such a way that the system is not disturbed significantly and information about the second property can still be obtained. This careful measurement relies on the 'weak measurement' of the first property followed by a 'strong measurement' of the second property. First described 25 years ago, weak measurement requires that the coupling between the system and what is used to measure it be, as its name suggests, 'weak,' which means that the system is barely disturbed in the measurement process. The downside of this type of measurement is that a single measurement only provides a small amount of information, and to get an accurate readout, the process has to be repeated multiple times and the average taken. Researchers passed polarized light through two crystals of differing thicknesses: the first, a very thin crystal that 'weakly' measures the horizontal and vertical polarization state; the second, a much thicker crystal that 'strongly' measures the diagonal and anti-diagonal polarization state. As the first measurement was performed weakly, the system is not significantly disturbed, and therefore, information gained from the second measurement was still valid. This process is repeated several times to build up accurate statistics. Putting all of this together gives a full, direct characterization of the polarization states of the light."
So, is the damned cat dead or alive?
Just asking.
This is old news.
It doesn't violate the uncertainty principle.
Are you sure?
And no.
I'm betting this is barely significant.
I come here for the love
I thought the premise behind QKD was that you couldn't measure the polarization of one of a pair of entangled photons on two different bases at the same time, so once you perform the measurement in either basis, you're stuck with it and can't recreate that photon to forward it to the receiver (you'll only get the right basis half of the time). If this means you can get information about the photon on both the horizontal/vertical and diagonal bases, doesn't that mean you can MITM QKD?
Another Star Trek gadget may come true?
Heisenberg Compensator?
certain properties of a quantum system could be known only poorly if certain other related properties were known with precision.
This careful measurement relies on the 'weak measurement' of the first property followed by a 'strong measurement' of the second property.
Weak measurements are not precise. They can become statistically significant with a large data set, but on an individual event basis, they give you effectively nothing. There's no violation of the Uncertainty Principle here.
So you do have a plan?! Yeah, Mr. White! Yeah, science!
What they are doing is assuming that their light source is broadly uniform and averaging over the double-measurement (which is clever, no doubt). So we still haven't learned anything about a particular photon that violates the uncertainty principle, only something about the entire population. If we assume that the population is uniformly polarized (which is reasonable in this case) then we can conclude that the average reflects the properties of the individual photons. If the population was not uniform, however, then the average tells us very little about the properties of the individual photons.
And before someone too clever tries to argue that you can take a single input photon and make multiple copes and send them through this process to get results about that one photon, there is the No Clone Theorem to here to prevent that maneuver.
So really they haven't gone around Heisenberg (which talked only about individual wave-functions) but used multiple compound measurements and an assumption about the properties of the group to infer something that Heisinberg says they can't measure directly -- which is quite clever but Herr Doctor's principle still stands quite strong.
Does anyone have a link to an actual pdf of the actual paper?
Has this interpretation of the original work been subject to peer review?
teal deer: you're trying to measure 2 properties. heisenberg says you can measure one or the other. tfa says you can measure a little of one and a lot of one. it's not teleportation, but it's kinda cool.
Like many non-rigorous descriptions, the summary makes the mistake of describing the uncertainty principle as if it is a measurement problem, where the lack of precision somehow arises from inadequate measurement technology. This is not a correct statement of the uncertainty principle. The fundamental issue is that the conjugate variable values are linked on a quantum level, such that there is a certain amount of natural, inherent uncertainty in their collective values due to the statistical/wavelike nature of the quantum particle. With perfect measurement, there is still uncertainty in the pair of values for any conjugate variables because the uncertainty lies in the actual values themselves. Position and momentum are the quintessential conjugate pair. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is sometimes framed as the idea that you cannot know the speed and position of a particle at the same time. But it's more correct to say that a particle does not HAVE an exact speed and position at the same time. This weak measurement technique is certainly useful and interesting since it allows some observations of wavefunctions without collapse, but it does not actually allow the measurement of conjugate variables more precisely than the uncertainty principle allows - because the values themselves do not exist more precisely than that.
*This description is based one one of the multiple interpretations of quantum mechanics, and probably does not accurately represent physical reality, only our human understanding of a part of reality that we have not really figured out completely yet.
I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
So... they system is disturbed. And
This is therefore a statistical experiment and thus subject to all the normal caveats involved with statistics, including estimates of error.
Oh c'mon. This isn't Reddit. /. may be a shit-hole at times, but it isn't a Reddit-level shit-hole. Please leave the image macros at home.
It's like equivalent-time sampling in oscilloscopes?
Quantum teleporation is not the way. We should curve spacetime to make Portal-style wormholes. Need energy equivalent to about 71% the mass of Jupiter for a 1 meter portal.
Citation: http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf
I got it from Reddit - so good call.
But relax - most people will never see it. It's not my fault that I think of Breaking Bad whenever I hear Heisenberg now. :)
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
I'm probably misunderstanding things here but assuming just momentaneously that this allows for information to travel instantaneously, Special Relativity ask us to consider that this information is actually traveling back in time. isn't it? Then are we finally goinig to get a proper model of time travel so we can make Hollywood stop making shoddy movies like Looper?
But... the future refused to change.
"This process is repeated several times to build up accurate statistics." If I'm reading this right, this means that you need multiple identical copies of the photon, and it's impossible to duplicate the quantum state of an object without knowing its exact state. You can't repeat the process on the same photon because that strong measurement destroys the photon's original state. This would work if your source was producing a number of identical photons, but it wouldn't be very useful in, for example, breaking quantum cryptography.
I was in quantum information theory two decades ago so my knowledge is out of date, but nothing about this sounds theoretically surprising; I suspect it is the experimental technique that is the key.
This:
Physicists Discover a Way Around Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle
versus this:
The downside of this type of measurement is that a single measurement only provides a small amount of information, and to get an accurate readout, the process has to be repeated multiple times and the average taken.
(my emphasis)
/. editors at their best again </sarcasm>
As in false: not true. It isn't just distorted or exaggerated. It's wrong.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Neither.
No, Heisenberg bounds the product of the errors in the measurements of the two by means of a Schwartz inequality: i.e. if you measure one very precisely, you will get a big error in your measurement of the other one.
Turns out it's a standard parlor trick. The cat has a twin sibling.
The rest is all mirrors ... and ball bearings.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
No, this does not invalidate the Heisenberg principle because it is done on an ensemble and the measurement is just an average on the statistic that they gather.
This has no bearing on the fundamental validity of the uncertainty principle for a single quantum system. Never quite understood the point of these experiments. But to advertise them in this misleading fashion is just asinine.
Way to go to confuse an already science sceptic pubic.
OK, sometimes.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I'm in a habit that when I see a headline like this, I just *assume* it's bullshit and move straight to the comments to find the physicists who refute the claims. Even if it's true, just by the sensationalism Slashdot headlines starting bringing us I'm going to assume false.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Is it aladeen... or is it aladeen?
You can only know the qualities sampled on a discrete digital grid to certain resolution due the limits of the grid. Take a Fourier transform of quanity sampled on that grid. You can only reliable compute frequencies with wavelengths two grid points wide. Else "aliasing" allows you fit an arbitrary number of smaller wavelengths to the same sample points.
In nature the Planck unit of action discretizes the universe into the smallest quantities you can resolve.
Dead. Starvation, because kept trying to measure it instead of feeding it.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
...and after that it's turtles all the way down.
How does this bode for quantum encryption? Me thinks it makes it a bit less hack-proof. I guess the good news is that it sounds like Star Trek transporters are another tiny step closer to reality. ;-)
"Never give up, for that is just the time and place when the tide will change." -Harriet Beecher Stowe ^_^
.. but he still makes incredible meth!
Did the people here really just run this sensationalist headline? This is closer to national enquirer than real news.
But posting that was your fault.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Makes sense since everything is probabilities.
simple, fast homepage with your links: http://www.ngumbi.com/
Wait... so does that mean that rather than Monoliths condensing Jupiter into a miniature star, they simply ate enough of the matter to generate a portal through which additional matter was shoved, causing a sub-stellar mass to ignite?
Oh, right, , if that were true they'd have needed something to eat to transport Bowman, unless in that case the monolith had been charging its solar batteries for millions of years....
You're goddamn right....
So there is now some clarification as to whether or not Heisenberg is indeed the one who knocks?
I finally gots me a Heisenberg Compensator! To think I thought star trek was just a bunch of techno babble.
The real answer is that the Schrodinger's Cat jibe ignores that the superpositioning and wave behavior aren't scalable to macroscopic systems and remain an artifact of the quantum world. The reality is that quantum physics bullshit is just classical physics with aether overlayed onto it. It's the dynamic vacuum which makes everything look wavy and superpositioned with the smallscale domain. Occam's Razor demands a simpler and more direct explanation than all the fancy-shmancy quantum hand-waving sophistry.
Hailing Frequencies Open, Captain! [flashes thighs]
There is no cat.
An example of the measurement by Schwartz "equality":
"I see your Schwartz is as big as mine!"
tooshay
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
...how soon until we have Heisenberg Compensators?
Their work presupposes that a single photon travels as a plane wave, with linear polarization...
Probably the fundamental photon is actually a corkscrew shape, with either left-hand OR right-hand circular polarization. And so each of what they expected to be "a single" photon are actually left-right pairs of synchonized photons, thus allowing Heisenberg's uncertainty to be "broken".
This would make sense as there are other things with similar shapes, which change from "fermion" to "boson" statistical rules when they pair up.
(it also may imply the same for a "free" electron - which may also be required to form a "cooper-pair" in order to just cross a vacuum tube.... depending on how one does one's measurements, one could easily be out 2x on charge and mass at the same time - the ratio of the two is still the same. )
Really, how is A*e^(i*tau*f*t) more complicated than a "sine" wave... It's just multiplication with one exponentiation.
A*sin(tau*f*t) on the other hand...
Just guessing.
Wait... the cat is not "either dead or alive" ? How is that possible?
Dead == ~Alive -> Dead || Alive -> ~Alive || Alive == true
Even a superposition of the two still results in a "true"
I wouldn't recommend it. You'd probably end up like Gus Fring.
Actually, I thought the cat got bored of the whole thing, and while the physicists weren't watching it stepped out for some tuna.