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If You're a Foreigner Using GPS In China, You Could Be a Spy

tedlistens writes "China has accused Coca Cola of espionage for its 'illegal mapping,' allegedly with the use of GPS 'devices with ultra high sensitivity.' On its face the case looks like yet another example of China's aggressive sensitivity about its maps, no doubt heightened by its ongoing fracas with the U.S. over cyberwar. Li Pengde, deputy director of the National Administration of Surveying, Mapping and Geoinformation, said during a radio interview on Tuesday that the Coca Cola case was only one of 21 similar cases involving companies using GPS devices in Yunnan to 'illegally obtain classified information.' According to Chinese authorities, geographical data can be used by guided missiles to strike key military facilities — a concern that one GPS expert says is overblown at a time when the U.S. government already has high-precision satellite maps of China. Nevertheless, Chinese law dictates that foreigners, be they companies or individuals, are prohibited from using highly-sensitive GPS equipment in China."

219 comments

  1. Bad idea? by enigma32 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Maybe they shouldn't have Coca-Cola deliver refreshments to their secret military installations? ;)

    1. Re:Bad idea? by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hey, given how frequently my employers want to send me to China to train their idiotic "engineers", knowing all I have to do is possess a sensitive GPS device is all I need to know.

      I await the banhammer China, [sung to the mighty mouse theme] here I come to train your slaves!

    2. Re:Bad idea? by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      Bloomberg in New York City is way ahead of you.

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    3. Re:Bad idea? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      But how to tell the delivery men where they should not go?

      Oh wait, I've got the solution: Give them the GPS coordinates to avoid! :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  2. fair play by volmtech · · Score: 2

    We should charge China with spying using all those GPS units they send here, not counting the cell phones that also have a GPS chip. Embargo all of them.

    1. Re:fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well US is full of GPS units not made on US soil since nothing high-tech is manufactured there anyway recently.

    2. Re:fair play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hang on, do you consider an "insult" to Coca Cola to be an insult to the USA and you personally? That is what I infer.

      Utterly imbecilic if that is the case.

  3. INforMation LeAk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because they know what they will be doing with the data they have from America and it scares them!

  4. China.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A SPY!!!

  5. censoring comments now too eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    where did my comment just go??? fukken fashists

    1. Re:censoring comments now too eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This post was removed due to Dice content standards violations.

  6. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    China makes almost everything you utilize on your daily life, directly or indirectly.

    This is not by your choice but by the companies you buy utilities and electronics.

    China also owns most of US foreign debt.

    This is also by design since china has been buying it from the free markets.

    Deal with it.

  7. If you're a foreigner in the US usaing a camera... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you could be a terrorist.

  8. Re:Fuck China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If the rationale provided by China for banning "highly-sensitive" GPS is genuine (and that's one wobbly "if" right there) then Allah-or-whomever praise the US; all such regimes should live in perpetual fear.

    Thankfully, after more than four wasted years of temporary insanity we are resuming our GMD deployment, so fuck North Korea and their ballistic pipe-bombs too.

  9. The US is headed the same way, not as far along by raymorris · · Score: 0

    The US is headed in the same direction, this just shows where the US will be in 15 years. When a majority want a nanny state, when they give the government all the control, and send all money to the government, that's what you end up with. There was a time when the US stood for individual freedom, for each person making their own decisions (and reaping the rewards / consequences), I'm afraid that time is gone. We've asked Washington to take over our lives and they'll happily do so, just as China's government has.

    1. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There was a time when the US stood for individual freedom...

      When?

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    2. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Before 1913.

    3. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When?

      When you could simply move west and remove yourself from the boundries of civilization. Of course, as time went on, you had to go further and further west.

      With California, Oregon, Washington and even Alaska firmly under the heel of the Federal boot, there's nowhere left to go. At least not until we start off-planet colonization, which may or may not happen in the next few hundred years or so.

      It's a rather sad state of affairs, because society - modern or otherwise - is no place for the self-reliant.

    4. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it was called New France/Spain at the time.

    5. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can still get there in Alaska.

    6. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No No No No No No No. It's great to say "the US has problems" but you're an ignorant fuck if you think the US is anywhere near China in these regards, or is headed that direction and will converge within 15 years.

    7. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Before 1913.

      In 1913 we had a president who openly advocated white supremacist policies and praised the KKK. Women were denied not only the vote, but many inheritance rights, right to serve on juries, and were openly discriminated against in education, financial services, and employment. The police regularly colluded in violently suppressing organized labor.

      If you were a rich white guy, 1913 may have been the golden age. For everyone else, it wasn't so good.

    8. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL, Paultards.

    9. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Not quite. Lots of freaks go there under that impression, but the did eventually get Robert Hale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hale_(Alaska) who essentially moved to Alaska so nobody would find out he beat and raped his daughters. So many fugitives get caught there, even in Alaska, it's hard to live off the grid. It's rugged, but not as far out of touch as many hope.

    10. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by readin · · Score: 1

      He must of meant the United States of America, not the United States of Mexico. America stood for individual freedom at its founding. It stood even more strongly for it once it got rid of slavery.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    11. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Hmm... Since I am a reasonably rich white guy, perhaps I should move to 1913... :)

    12. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      America stood for individual freedom at its founding. It stood even more strongly for it once it got rid of slavery.

      Who says it got rid of slavery?

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    13. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by readin · · Score: 1

      The American justice system certainly has a lot of problems, but there is a big difference between a poorly implemented justice system combined with worse prisons, and slavery.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    14. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      What do you mean "poorly implemented"? This is its design. It is systematically corrupt, not "poorly implemented" by any means. You're cutting them way too much slack.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    15. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by readin · · Score: 1

      It depends on who you mean by "them".

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    16. Re:The US is headed the same way, not as far along by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      The people you vote for.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  10. Let's take a closer look at home too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Taking simple public pictures in the USA isn't much different these days, why don't we fix what's wrong in our own country before we start talking about what is wrong with others? Yes it is idiotic but can't say I'm standing on better ground in the US these days either!

    1. Re:Let's take a closer look at home too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, let's! First, all non-Americans cease criticism of the USA in every article about the USA on Slashdot!
      Let's work together towards a brighter future, fellow enlightened Anonymous American!

    2. Re:Let's take a closer look at home too! by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I am, by no means, a fan of the United States as it stands today but to compare the two is idiotic. I'll start with: In the United States you'll at least get a trial, probably, if they did any more than question you. You're not going to GITMO (or to the firing squad) for taking pictures of the Golden Gate Bridge and you're not going to jail either assuming all one was doing was taking pictures. Let's at least start with reality and work our way down.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  11. Classified Information: by Hartree · · Score: 2

    Coke got sensitive classified military information that their delivery vehicle that was three hours late was sitting in the parking lot of a local bar all that time.

    (The corollary is that the driver they fired was a son of a local party official. Bad idea.)

  12. Re:another day, another China bashing article by Hartree · · Score: 1

    So, you're saying that ACs aren't all underpaid bored guys wearing military uniforms that troll slashdot from an office on the outskirts of Shanghai?

  13. Re:Fuck China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want to see photos, use that as a search term on images.google.com safesearch off.

  14. Get out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just get out of China.. stop spying on them and go home to your damn USA and fix your problems. You're already spying everywhere and waging war in half of the middle east. The whole world is sick of you.

    1. Re:Get out by VocationalZero · · Score: 1

      go home to your damn USA and fix your problems

      And yet, one of the USA's biggest problems is China spying on US corporations. Though, unlike China's propaganda division, I admit that the Tu Quoque fallacy is not a defense for USA's (or China's) actions.

    2. Re:Get out by Tailhook · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just get out of China.

      But keep sending your food.

      And keep sending us your industry.

      Oh, your tech too. Keep sending that.

      Otherwise, just stay the hell out, round-eye.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    3. Re:Get out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I sort of agree with you. I often wonder what the point of these "anti-china" posts are all about.

      On one hand you have the USA, and its rules and gvt. On the other you have China, with a different set of rules and different gvt.

      I think Its fairly rare to see China tell the US what to do, but frequently the US tells China what to do. If you don't like China and its laws don't go there. No one "forced" Coke to go to china, they did it because they saw a huge market to sell their products to.

      I am fairly sure the US expects visitors to follow US laws when in the US but i don't understand why they feel they can use US laws when not in the US? Maybe in the US you have a right to take detailed GPS maps of wherever you want, but Coke wasn't doing that in the US. They did it in a more restrictive country which specifically doesn't want you doing this. The law may be totally stupid for many reasons, but don't violate them then complain.

      Lastly, as many others have posted I'd like a pro-american-freedom type to go photograph a US nuclear plant or gvt building with a GPS and see how that works out for you. Hopefully the plant you choose is not within the 200 mile border zone where your "rights" are suspended and you are end up being labelled a "terrorist".

      As an amateur photographer i have been hassled more then once for taking pictures of US buildings while on PUBLIC PROPERTY (sidewalks). Doesn't seem very "free" to me.

      Lastly, for what its worth I am a Canadian who has lived in both the US and China.

    4. Re:Get out by Marxdot · · Score: 1

      one of the USA's biggest problems is China spying on US corporations

      Is it?

    5. Re:Get out by VocationalZero · · Score: 1

      From what I've heard in the industry, it is. This BBC article is a little dated but is a good outline of some of the key points. Popular Mechanics did a good piece on the issue a few years back, if you're up for a longer read.

    6. Re:Get out by poity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your post strikes me as strange and inconsistent.
      If, as a Canadian who has been hassled for taking photos of US buildings, your response is to be reflective of the silliness of these laws which govern photo taking in the US, the so too should you be reflective of the silliness of these laws which govern GPS usage in China. It would make more sense for you to have a heightened awareness for such shenanigans due to your previous experience and to be doubly outraged, rather than excusing one while pointing out the other.

      You say that "If you don't like China and its laws don't go there" yet you don't seem to apply the same kind of hand-waving to your experience in the US.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    7. Re:Get out by Clsid · · Score: 1

      His post is consistent. He never said that he likes that Chinese law, but that even if you don't like a law when you are in either the US or China, should you just go ahead and break it?

      If you are going to show that kind of respect for a country's customs and laws, both the US AND China have every right to throw your ass in jail.

    8. Re:Get out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seriously bothersome to deal with the laws regarding GPS, navigation, maps, communication, and so on in China. I guess that most tourists ends up breaking several laws, but without being targeted by government.

      Most local citizens of China do not follow laws. The laws in China is a lot more strict than what I am used to, but few practice the law. The problem is the seamlessly random usage of the laws. Anyone can be targeted at any random point of time.

    9. Re:Get out by poity · · Score: 1

      If you would read GP more carefully you would notice that he said he was hassled "more than once" while in the US. This indicates that he didn't quite follow his own suggestion of respecting a country's laws after his initial encounter. One could counter-argue that US laws on public photography are murky and interpreted capriciously, but one must then accept that such argument could apply to Coke's experience of Chinese law on GPS usage.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  15. so people from the outsite can't take there cell p by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    so people from the outside of china can't take there cell phone with GPS to china??

  16. not as long as the bill of rights is in place by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    not as long as the bill of rights is in place

  17. GPS laws are like this all over the place by imidan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you do a lot of travelling, you will find that GPS laws are different everywhere. Many countries won't even allow you to bring one across the border. Defense against enemies obtaining high quality maps is usually the reasoning. Sometimes, you can bribe a customs guy to let you bring it in. But you shouldn't be flaunting GPS when you're visiting a place like that. I think China should be more free, but I can't get too upset when they enforce their existing laws against visitors who break them, even when the laws are out of date or seem silly.

    1. Re:GPS laws are like this all over the place by stephanruby · · Score: 2

      If you do a lot of travelling, you will find that GPS laws are different everywhere.

      This has nothing to do with GPS. After the US accused China of cyber attacks, it just retaliated against the biggest US conglomerates they could go after.

      China did something similar to Carrefour after the French President officially received the Dali Lama. Of course, everybody knows that Carrefour had nothing to do with the Dali Lama's visit, but that wasn't the point. The point was to put the French chain store under siege everywhere it was located in China, so that the French corporation and the related French unions would in turn put the screws to the French President.

      Also, it doesn't hurt that a corporation like Coca Cola (and other corporations in the same category) couldn't care less about cyber attacks against US-based technology companies or US-based media companies, but care deeply about being in China's market. So by targeting such companies and accusing them of espionage (a pretty serious allegation if you ask me), they're effectively pitting the lobbyists of those major consumer goods companies against the lobbyists of the major technology/media companies.

    2. Re:GPS laws are like this all over the place by imidan · · Score: 1

      Okay, so that's a nice, broad, political view of the situation. I appreciate that. Maybe this crackdown is related. It's also true that sometimes, other countries take a harder line on laws they haven't before, in order to exert diplomatic pressure. Maybe it's bullshit to you that China is now enforcing their laws.

      In the meantime, take your GPS into Tunisia and let me know how that goes. I won't visit you in Tunisian prison.

      US companies expect retaliation for trade disagreements. The mechanics of those consequences will vary. Those multinationals have planned for the consequences, and we shouldn't cry for them. The loss that Coke realizes in all of this is more than you or I will make in years, but less than they make in a day. To them, it's just the cost of doing business.

    3. Re:GPS laws are like this all over the place by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      In the meantime, take your GPS into Tunisia and let me know how that goes. I won't visit you in Tunisian prison.

      Oh yes of course, I'm not disputing that those laws exist, or that they're enforced on individuals on a regular basis. And even thought, I sounded quite certain in my allegations, I'm only just 90% certain that it is some kind of official retaliation, and not some kind of corrupt official looking for bribe money, or some tin-foil hat wearing official going off on a personal crusade against gps units.

      Those multinationals have planned for the consequences, and we shouldn't cry for them.

      I don't think anyone is crying for them.

      And yes, part of such a contingency plan for US conglomerates could also mean to have a number of powerful US lobbyists and powerful US politicians already on their corporate payroll (or the politicians wives, or their close relatives, or their close friends). Trying to manipulate politicians can sometimes be the cheaper way to go.

      The loss that Coke realizes in all of this is more than you or I will make in years, but less than they make in a day.

      Personally, I couldn't care less either way, but I doubt that the conglomerate itself sees it that way.

      It takes time to build market-share and establish yourself as a category leader in any market. Anything that happens today commercially in China could have far reaching consequences into the future, when China's market is considered exponentially more valuable than it is now.

      It could also have an immediate impact on current shareholders and current share prices, since the price of a share often includes the potential growth of a company's future market.

    4. Re:GPS laws are like this all over the place by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Most laws like these have a stated purpose which has little to do with the true purpose. Arresting foreigners with GPS units and accusing them of espionage does a few things:

      1. It drums up nationalistic support, which is good for staying in power.
      2. It can be used to direct spending to local providers of high-tech equipment, maps, etc.

      If the US military wanted the GPS coordinates of some building they'd just pull out their handy dandy 1m satellite maps. Those maps are calibrated to a very high level of precision. The US has had decades to get good at this sort of thing. After all, back in the 1970s there was no GPS and it wasn't like the Soviets would let the US send teams of surveyors to plot the coordinates of their missile silos (US ICBMs have errors measured in single-digit meters so that they can hit extremely hardened targets, and there would be no point in developing that technology if they couldn't achieve similar accuracy in the target coordinates). In a shooting war the challenge for the mappers is getting coordinates on all the moving stuff like tanks, parked jets, mobiles SAMs, etc so that you can go from taking photos to dropping bombs in hours. Buildings that don't move are a piece of cake.

  18. Re:Fuck USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    so the "fuck China" gets a 3 and "fuck USA" gets a -1?
    Cybercrime: Styxnet most likely created by USA and Israel
    civic unrest: for the last 3 days in Brooklyn blacks are rioting because yet another 16 black kid was shot to death by the Police
    Human rights violations: Guantanamo.
    Fuck ./ for it turns it is just another China bashing web site.

  19. The part I find funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that they think Coca-Cola can do any more harm to their country. They've probably already hooked seventy-five percent of their nutritionally-absent, tooth-rotting, dehydrating, over-blown, over-advertised products or another, and will have the entire country hooked in another decade as more old people die and another generation steps into the shoes of hyperactive, self-aware ten-year-old brats. I mean, the stuff is so addictive that even I have a craving once every month or so and I went from a guy who drank a half-gallon of bourbon (or the equivalent), shot a quarter-ounce coke, shot an eight-ball of meth, another quarter-ounce of heroin, dropped some acid to make the nighttime more interesting, and took ecstasy if it was a Friday night to a guy who sometimes gets high on the weekends - mildly, and only if it fits in with my plans. Coca-cola is almost as bad as cigarettes (those I just cannot fucking quit).

  20. Don't worry, China... by gubon13 · · Score: 2

    ...I've got Apple Maps. Even if I geotagged one of your military sites, I'm just as likely to inadvertently order a missile strike on the Superdome.

  21. A little late by raymorris · · Score: 1
    A little late for that.

    the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    These days you can get busted for a Pop Tart that is vaguely shaped somewhat like a gun.

  22. Citation needed by raymorris · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A claim like that requires a citation.

  23. Re:Fuck USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Obviously, if one group is doing something, then they can't blame the other for doing something. That is just how it works. People not actively doing horrible things in their group have no right to say those things are horrible in another group. They can only talk about horrible things that their group is doing exclusively.

  24. One Two Three by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Informative

    This makes me think of the classic 1953 Billy Wilder comedy involving a Coca-Cola executive going to East Berlin to open up the iron curtain for Coke products.

    Hilarious in a dated sort of way. Tremendous pacing, starring James Cagney.

    A great way to pick up mid-century American culture.

  25. Misleading title! by VocationalZero · · Score: 2
    I entered this story under the pretense that I too could become a spy.

    Posted from China, Texas.

  26. Re:another day, another China bashing article by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    Citation Needed.

  27. Harm yes, but not through GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sugar-filled cola is the main cause of obesity, metabolic syndrome and type-II diabetes, so China is dead right that the Coca-Cola company is doing harm to their country.

    Not as much harm as it's doing to the US though, so on balance you'd think they'd be happy. :P

  28. What "classified information"? by Zadaz · · Score: 2

    If it really is GPS then it's simply the local time, broadcast in the clear. How is that classified?

    1. Re:What "classified information"? by Hadlock · · Score: 2

      Ground truth does not always equal what is said on a map. It's hard to read the signs that say "one way" from a satellite photo. It's also a lot easier for someone to come back to america, look at their GPS track and say "yep, there's definitely an entrance to an underground bunker here on this street" etc etc.Beijing is riddled with nuclear bunkers with entrances on to public streets, but they're poorly documented in english. Also, government mapping agencies tend to "forget" to put things on maps. BT tower, tallest building in London for many years and a major telcom antenna platform for the city/country, the address was a national secret, it existed on no map in public record.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    2. Re:What "classified information"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? It's a GPS receiver. It doesn't broadcast anything. It's the collection of location data that's the alleged classified information.

    3. Re:What "classified information"? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's hard to read the signs that say "one way" from a satellite photo.

      That used to be true, but now that they can reasonably shoot oblique due to improvements in adaptive optics, it's not so true.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  29. Re:another day, another China bashing article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/03/nyc_tourists_or_terrorists.html

    http://www.nyclu.org/files/releases/nyclu_letter_to_kelly1.pdf

  30. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Wrong - us citizens own most of the debt.

  31. *Yawn* by Greyfox · · Score: 1, Insightful

    We've mapped every inch of your country with satellites already. Get over it.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    1. Re:*Yawn* by tftp · · Score: 1

      Satellite maps have no accurate references to coordinates. The satellite knows where it is, and it knows where it points the camera to, but the error is too large from hundreds of miles away. You can see a lamppost, but you don't know its exact coordinates. The nearest lamppost that you do know coordinates of is not in this photo.

      This is why you need to take the satellite photo and then send someone who will stand by that specific lamppost, look at his GPS and write: "This is xx.xxx North and yy.yyy East." One such point will pin the map down, modulo rotation; two points will define the flat map; more points will define the map on a sphere and provide for error correction.

    2. Re:*Yawn* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that nobody knows where the satellites actually are and therefor cannot obtain true accuracy for absolute location? Cute.

    3. Re:*Yawn* by tftp · · Score: 2

      LEO satellites don't even have an absolute location. Geostationary ones do, but good luck taking pictures from *that* orbit.

      A LEO spy satellite has its own orbital motion; then it has librations around its own center of inertia; then the camera positioner has errors in aligning the camera; then the lens distorts the image a little, especially if you consider that it takes a picture of a sphere, and often the area of interest is not right under the orbit. All these factors combine to give you a significant angular error in pointing the camera. None of this is rocket science, it's simple geometry. I don't know if math is cute or not, but that's what it is.

    4. Re:*Yawn* by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      This.

      And every modern phone has GPS in it and many of those will 'geo-tag' by default when taking snaps.

      And they're only applying the law to foreigners, so stop being such stupid racist paranoid fucks Chinese Govt.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    5. Re:*Yawn* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A GPS receiver (with the export restriction limit turned off) will work travelling on a satellite you know. And with a multiple element antenna you can also use GPS to determine a platforms attitude and orientation.

    6. Re:*Yawn* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's nonsense. Ground positions determined from low-earth-orbit imaging satellites can achieve better than 10m positional accuracy without much effort, and there are plenty of non-GPS-derived sources for other data, such as SAR, that achieve high enough precision via interferometry to get *cm* precision and better. About the only unique value of ground-truthed GPS is to answer the question "What would a GPS unit read at this position (e.g., if a GPS were attached to a bomb)?" It's ground-truthing of GPS rather than getting the position of things, which is very well determined already. In terms of positional data, we've already got the Earth covered at higher resolution and more thoroughly than a series of GPS readings can get.

    7. Re:*Yawn* by Dereck1701 · · Score: 1

      Somehow I doubt that the issue in this case is with phone GPS receivers, which at best are usually only 15-25' accurate and can be blocked or rendered less accurate by almost anything (hand over the receiver, cloudcover, buildings, car roofs, etc). It sounds like the issue is with "survey grade" GPS units, they are often backpack or vehicle based and can resolve coordinates to centimeter accuracy. Such coordinates, captured throughout the country, could be used as a ground control to take semi-accurate aerial photography and "rectify" it so it is much more accurate. Though from a military perspective its probably not an issue since satellites can probably already georeference the imagery to less than 20' based on their own sensors, more than accurate enough for bombs & missiles.

    8. Re:*Yawn* by Clsid · · Score: 1

      It's just a law they have. Why do you feel the need to break laws of foreign countries because they don't adapt to your point of view?

    9. Re:*Yawn* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's no that hard. Satellites use GPS for positioning and because they're in orbit, it's pretty easy to get very high accuracy. Star tracking is used to find orientation, which is also very easy. While I don't work with Earth imaging from space very often, there's no reason to believe the military couldn't get it down to 5-10 meters accuracy for minimal costs. That's enough for most bombs. Unless you're trying to go down a ventilation shaft, of course.

  32. Legitimate complaint? by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Heh.

    Actually seems like it could be a semi-legitimate complaint to me. Realistically what applications are there for a high-precision GPS outside of geological/territorial surveys and military intelligence? Sure we've got the satellite maps, but one of the nice things about those maps is the ability for someone with a GPS on the ground to make "X is here" annotations for important locations. For military purposes the ability to know within a few feet/yards where a strategic "soft spot" is could prove very valuable in terms of, say, disrupting infrastructure with a minimum of the sort of civilian collateral damage which could be used to sway international opinion against you.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    1. Re:Legitimate complaint? by tragedy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Realistically what applications are there for a high-precision GPS outside of geological/territorial surveys and military intelligence?

      Ooh, ooh, teacher, teacher! I know this one! It's knowing which freaking road you're on when there are several close together.

      Seriously, what kind of question is that?

    2. Re:Legitimate complaint? by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You think that satellites can't do that? This is just about appearances, nothing more, or they just wanted access to those phones for industrial espionage reasons.

      This is about as legitimate as banning hunting rifles because they could shoot down military planes. I'm sure it's technically possible to get lucky, but it's rather unlikely that somebody is going to be able to hit something going that fast that far up on purpose.

    3. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Openstreetmap.

    4. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except, funnily enough, high precision GPS doesn't help you find out which road you're on in China because the maps are purposefully inaccurate. Fun stuff.

    5. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      It's knowing which freaking road you're on when there are several close together.

      Hahah, And how was it done in 1954? 1920? 1850? 1776? 300 BC?
      Milestones? Signs? Trees? Rocks? Maps? Cobblestones? Service Station?
      I mean really do you need that GPS on the Yellow Brick Road? After all, all you need do is,

      1. take a BIG HIT of HELIUM
      2. Sing Loudly , " follow the yellow brick road. "

    6. Re:Legitimate complaint? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      I was speaking more to the general question of "technology X is only good for military applications, so why should civilians be allowed to use it?" It's silly. A useful technology is a useful technology. More accuracy and precision in any measuring device is good and useful. Immerman might as well have been arguing "Realistically what applications are there for [more than 640k of memory] outside of [military or other government sanctioned work]?"

    7. Re:Legitimate complaint? by tragedy · · Score: 2

      Well, in 1954, there were all the navigational methods of the past plus RDF (radio direction finder) systems, that allowed you to triangulate your position based on fixed beacons. Such systems existed in 1920, but weren't really in wide deployment, although some skilled navigators/radio operators probably were using those techniques with commercial radio broadcasts to navigate. Otherwise there were compasses, navigating by stars (using clocks and other instruments like sextants), charts, dead reckoning, following road signs and maps on land, etc. In 1850 there were compasses, maps, stopping to ask for directions, road signs, mile markers, etc. In 1776, the sextant had been invented, so not much was different from 1850 except for accuracy. In 300 BC, there were maps, although obviously not as good as later maps, mile markers and road signs, etc., though not as widespread as later. Navigating by landmarks and asking directions, etc. It's possible that some people may have had magnetic compasses, although there's no historical documentation of magnetic compasses for another hundred years or so. There were still plenty of methods of navigating by the moon and stars and various instruments for tracking celestial objects.

      Today, all of the old methods are still valid and should not be forgotten. GPS is taken as a given but could vanish at any moment from a big solar flare or for political reasons. Still, it's better and faster and more accurate and precise than any other method available now. Having it be more accurate and precise is not a bad thing and it helps prevent confusion in navigation devices.

    8. Re:Legitimate complaint? by davester666 · · Score: 2

      You forget, China defines a high-precision GPS as being what the iPhone or any Android phone provides.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    9. Re:Legitimate complaint? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      High precision is talking about sub 10m accuracy. You don't need that for sat nav, even at junctions. The reason is that although absolute position is only good to within say 10m velocity is extremely good, so you can tell if the user drifted a few metres on to the exit road or not.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:Legitimate complaint? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The Taliban consider the sniper rifle to be an effective anti-drone weapon.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    11. Re:Legitimate complaint? by richlv · · Score: 1

      osm.org ?
      it's not a legitimate complaint, it's a crazy totalitarian idea.

      --
      Rich
    12. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Hyperhaplo · · Score: 1

      Okay, don't coke machines have sensors to determine how full they are, and they can phone home to alert a technician that the machine needs to be emptied of money and refilled?

      In this case, knowing the precise location of a machine could be very useful.

      Also quite useful if someone moves the machine.

      --
      You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
    13. Re:Legitimate complaint? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      Realistically what applications are there for a high-precision GPS outside of geological/territorial surveys and military intelligence?

      Ooh, ooh, teacher, teacher! I know this one! It's knowing which freaking road you're on when there are several close together.

      Depending on how close they are, un-augmented civilian grade GPS may or may not be up to the task. Pretty much all GPS navigators (handheld or dash mounted) are either augmented (with WAAS or it's EU equivalent, or with Assisted GPS) or they 'cheat' by making certain assumptions (I.E. you came in on this road, therefore you must still be on this road), or both. This has lead many people to mis-estimate the true accuracy of civilian grade GPS. (And it goes without saying that such augmentation is unavailable in China - because it depends on high grade surveys.)
       
      That being said, even civilian grade GPS is good enough to create a control point to update satellite based maps. There's not a doubt in my mind that the CIA has been doing so globally, using small (possibly military grade) handhelds to mark important points and then using that information to update more conventional maps. (Maps aren't just pretty pictures... there's a lot of data stored on them, but you need an accurate reference point to build the map around.)

    14. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/China#Legality

      So, basically, OSM is banned in China.

    15. Re:Legitimate complaint? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      It wasn't that long ago that the US had a similar legal attitude to the "high precision" GPS that is now available in consumer products.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    16. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The iPhone is exempt if it uses Apple maps =)

    17. Re:Legitimate complaint? by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Actually seems like it could be a semi-legitimate complaint to me. Realistically what applications are there for a high-precision GPS outside of geological/territorial surveys and military intelligence?

      Is it just me or is it getting really scary that people are starting to think this way?

      Be it GPS, guns, encryption, or 64oz sodas, there seems to be a growing and vocal faction of people that think that if someone can show some defined "need" to have something then they shouldn't be able to have it.

      The presence of tools should NEVER be interpreted as intention to commit a crime.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    18. Re:Legitimate complaint? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Drones aren't planes, they're designed to go low and slow and be expendible. If planes were typically going that low and that slow, the military would be more concerned with it. Plus, you're a fool if you think the typical hunting rifle is comparable with a sniper's rifle.

    19. Re:Legitimate complaint? by denbesten · · Score: 1

      one of the nice things about those maps is the ability for someone with a GPS on the ground to make "X is here" annotations for important locations.

      Perhaps one reason is so a delivery truck to knows where to deliver soda. TFA hints at this when it mentions "route planning".

    20. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I don't see it. The guy who refills the machine already knows *exactly* where it is. A GPS won't pinpoint it's position any better than "Machine 2384756 needs refilling".

      I could see GPS being useful for tracking a stolen machine, but that shouldn't take much precision. And really how big of a problem is that in China? A little alarm that starts screaming if the machine is jostled more than X amount without being in "transportation mode" would probably be far more effective anyway.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    21. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      In the US or other country where the government claims to represent the will of the people, sure, no argument. But we're talking about China - they're a half step from a dictatorship and make no bones about it, and I would be *very* surprised if any dictatorship didn't object to it's citizens possessing tactically valuable tools, much less foreign nationals from countries with which they're slowly engaging in an early-stage Cold War.

      Hmm, looking at that last sentence I think it also sums up why I'm extremely suspicious of any "democratic" government that begins to ban such tools.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    22. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When we were living in Yunnan more than ten years ago we could barely hike across country for a mile or two without stumbling across another damn military camp. Seriously, they are everywhere in that province. Part of the worry is India, Northeast India is very very close to the southwest corner of Yunnan. The Chinese also have a lot of sigint there, and sig blocking as well. So, it is kind of like having a bunch of Chinese plastic thingy delivery men wandering around one of those western states that have a bunch of high-security installations with high quality GPSs to help them find their way about. The local sheriffs would get antsy at best, lock-up crazy at worst.

    23. Re:Legitimate complaint? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Plus, you're a fool if you think the typical hunting rifle is comparable with a sniper's rifle.

      You'd be more correct if you replaced "typical hunting rifle" with "typical hunter" and "a sniper's rifle" with "a sniper".

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    24. Re:Legitimate complaint? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      "In three months it will be spring. You _don't_ need heat in spring!!!"

    25. Re:Legitimate complaint? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      That being said, even civilian grade GPS is good enough to create a control point to update satellite based maps. There's not a doubt in my mind that the CIA has been doing so globally, using small (possibly military grade) handhelds to mark important points and then using that information to update more conventional maps. (Maps aren't just pretty pictures... there's a lot of data stored on them, but you need an accurate reference point to build the map around.)

      Or they could just use their billions of dollars worth of satellites to do the same thing with even more precision or accuracy.

    26. Re:Legitimate complaint? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      If satellites could create control points, yes, that would be a very good plan. It isn't that easy.

    27. Re:Legitimate complaint? by tragedy · · Score: 1

      I'm curious why that would be the case? I mean, maybe back in the days when spy satellites actually dropped film canisters back to Earth to be developed, but this is the 21st century. They're able to know with amazing accuracy and precision the position, rotation and direction of satellites or GPS wouldn't be possible in the first place. It's still hard to figure out from that exactly where the camera is pointing without independent corroboration, sure, except that these satellites don't have to act alone and they surely don't just take pictures. For one thing, they're surely used for signals intelligence as well. If they're doing that, anything stationary that's sending out any sort of signal can be triangulated, probably very accurately, and give a control point. That isn't really necessary though since these satellites are almost certainly equipped with RADAR and/or LIDAR. That should provide position information as good as, or better than, a ground based GPS receiver.

    28. Re:Legitimate complaint? by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? The US does this all the time!

      For example, brass knuckles are illegal in most states. Not because they're particularly deadly, but because carrying them around probably means you're a gangster. So they make a law banning brass knuckles, and if the police find them on a gangster, they can arrest the gangster. Otherwise they gotta let them go if they can't find anything else on the guy.

      It's probably a similar thing with spies in China and Russia. Sure they can detain tourists all they want, but they can't do anything really bad to them unless they're breaking some useless law, like possession of a GPS. When the laws were enacted, their own citizens probably weren't rich enough to have a lot of GPSs. But catch a tourist with one, and whee, they've got an actual law broken, which increases the bribe they get by a lot.

    29. Re:Legitimate complaint? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I would hardly consider brass knuckles to be a tactically valuable tool in any sort of military sense, whereas they are quite useful in criminal violence (then again now we've got teenagers shooting at each other instead, is that really an improvement?)

      Assault rifles on the other hand... they're not significantly more useful than a handgun against soft targets (as in the case of a nutjob shooting up a crowd), but good luck repelling even a minor military assault with handguns. So yeah, a bit suspicious on that front. Sure they're also a problem in gang-police faceoffs, but then we know how to erase militarized gangs virtually overnight if we really wanted to - same way we erased the bootlegging gangs that arose during alcohol prohibition.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  33. Then don't come to China please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Chinese Gov't may pretend to welcome you, some pretty Chinese girl may love your money and sell sex to you, but the major part of Chinese people don't. So don't come to here please. Don't buy "made-in-China" please.

  34. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you miss the part when he said "foreign"?

    "Foreign governments hold about 46 percent of all U.S. debt held by the public, more than $4.5 trillion. The largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury."

  35. I was going to say something about China, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they aren't strip searching, irradiating, and molesting people coming into the country.

  36. Uhhh... by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

    Of course, nobody would use Google satellite maps or anything.

  37. So Iranian agents taking pics of airports by raymorris · · Score: 1
    Your cited spurce says:

    Authorities have interviewed at least 13 people since 2005 with ties to Iran's government [taking pictures of airports, etc.]

    You said:

    taking photos of bridges??? You can be arrested for that.

    IF I were an agent of the Iranian government, and I was on a watch list causing the government to be interested in what I was doing, and I wax taking pictures of airports, I could be interviewed. Good or bad, decide for yourself, but it's good to be clear on what is actually going on.

    1. Re:So Iranian agents taking pics of airports by tragedy · · Score: 2

      Do they determine what constitutes "ties to Iran's government"? Does it mean Iranian diplomats, Iranian government ministers, vacationing bureaucrats from some government agency, vacationing postal workers, vacationing relatives of postal workers, students in the country on government loans, or just anyone Iranian since anyone from Iran has a "tie" to the Iranian government by virtue of being a citizen?

      I mean, seriously, this is stupid. If someone wants to get clandestine pictures of things in plain view of the public, they will get them. There is no way to stop it from happening. Interviewing people conspicuously taking pictures in public places is absolutely useless.

      Good or bad, decide for yourself, but it's good to be clear on what is actually going on.

      Authorities are helpfully informing anyone who might be a foreign spy that they're being watched so that they can know, through process of elimination, which agents are _not_ being watched? Xenophobic people in positions of authority, trying to play hero, are participating in meaningless harassment that won't make a dent in any real intelligence-gathering operation?

  38. Re:so people from the outsite can't take there cel by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

    Not unless you want the Chinese government to use it to track you wherever you go and aren't worried about them taking all of your private information and your passwords into corporate accounts and putting malware on it that will open a back door when you hook it back into your network when you get home.

    These days, tech companies send their employees to China with scrubbed laptops and burn phones for this reason. Then they scrub them again as soon as they get home.

  39. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

    China also owns most of US foreign debt.

    Actually, China owns about 8% of our national debt.

    Even if you only consider debt own by foreign countries, China owns only 26% of that, about the same as Japan.

  40. Pretty stupid of Coca Cola by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ignoring for a moment if GPS mapping is a security risk or not, if it's against the law Coca Cola shouldn't be doing it. Of course, they've never been punished for killing people so they probably have the judge in their pocket and just don't give a shit.

  41. GPS on cell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a very convenient law. Everyone has a cell phone with them these days, and they all have GPS receivers. That means everyone walking around are capable of "mapping", with or without permission. And in China, having the ability to commit a crime is good enough reason to convict. So if the government, or just one of its officials, wants to arrest you, there is one crime you are suspected of.

    As for ability of committing a crime as evidence enough for correction, there is a joke that goes around: all male are guilty of rape, having the equipment to commit the crime with them at all times.

  42. I am soo confused :( by Phizzle · · Score: 1

    My highly sensitive GPS receiver is made in China and I got it from a street vendor in Shenzhen. Sooo confusing!

    --
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
  43. Laws "dictate" in any country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So if that law says it's forbidden to use high sensitivity GPS in that country, what the f*** was Coca Cola doing with that gear? And why are we even discussing this?

    1. Re:Laws "dictate" in any country by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      I am sure that it is a NORMAL GPS and every company uses these to determine where their assets are.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  44. Can't blame them. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    That is what they are doing to the west. They do not want the same thing to happen to them.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  45. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2

    It's the price they pay to deflate their currency.

  46. Who"s on first? by slick7 · · Score: 1

    The planet was here before people were, If an area is to be classified, prevent unauthorized people from gaining access to the area. Does the use of recconasence satellites violate international treaties?

    --
    The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
    1. Re:Who"s on first? by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      What international treaties? And since China ignores all treaties, why would it matter now?

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  47. China mapping by Stiletto · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As someone who works for a company that does significant mapping business in China, I'm getting a kick out of these replies. It's funny how sensitive they are to GIS information and maps. The Chinese government has these silly rules about all maps having to show China's borders the way they imagine them to be, and you have to show certain islands and other sensitive areas as exaggerated in size. As long as you comply with their fairy tale, there's no problem. The GPS stuff is probably related. Anything that has the potential to show reality rather than the make-believe world is verboten.

    1. Re:China mapping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you want to bet in the next serious weather event the military ends up using the twisted maps and gets all screwed up in doing emergency relief? Jeez crazy government people, you aren't fooling anybody and there are some good reasons to have truthful documents.

  48. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Did you miss the part where he said "most of US foreign debt"?

    1.2 trillion out of 4.5 trillion is not 'most of'.

  49. New summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If You're a Foreigner In China, You Could Be a Spy.

    I'm sure it doesn't matter what you are doing (GPS mapping is merely the latest encarnation)...

  50. They know what they're talking about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seen that China is currently engaging in a worldwide spying entreprise with ZTE and Huawei devices which are *full* of backdoors, I think they know one or two things when it comes to spying ; )

  51. If You're a Foreigner In China, You Could Be a Spy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FTFY

  52. I am an American by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    and I live outside of America because my business is outside of the United States

    And you know what ?

    For the past decades I've been contacted by "someone" asking me for my "cooperation" so that they can use my company as a cover up to spy on the countries that my business has located branches and local contacts

    When I told them that I do not want my company to be involved in some espionage activities "they" remind me of my "duty" to my country, that I should be "patriotic", that I should aid them in "defeating the enemies"

    Of course, I can't tell you where my business branches are located - or they will know who I am

    Just want you guys to know what is going on in the real world

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thanks for posting through slashdot. We will now trace and destroy you.

    2. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, how much did they offer you? Apparently it wasn't enough and now you're all offended.

    3. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In Defense of TacoBoy, I've heard this story before, and it ends in destruction, disaster, courts for the next 30 years, prison and death. I am a veteran and I don't blame them for turning that insane shit down. Working for psychopaths isn't a good business move it always ends bad.

      A TOY manufacturer was the victim. Ah here it is if you wanna read a little more: http://www.bobfletcherinvestigations.com/

      "Bob merged his toy manufacturing company with a company that imported watches.
      That company was called Vista USA INC. and was a covert operational front for US arms sales and covert mercenary training! "

      I offer up this example cause it's no laughing matter. There's an interview worth listening to, if you have access to Coast to Coast Am archives: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2008/10/04

      As far as the GPS in China thing, who cares, I don't need GPS in China, it's not my country, I'm not there, I'm here, and to boot I don't use GPS here either, and I certainly would not have been caught like "Coke" binding my standard business operations to it, regardless of what rationalization presented in favor.

      Dear COKE, You are making Soda. What the fuck?

    4. Re:I am an American by Zalbik · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Maybe "you" should "put" your "tinfoil" hat back "on", Cause those of "us" in the "real" world think "you" might be "bat-shit" crazy.

      Yeah, I can really see the CIA calling up random companies and saying "hey, can you please hire a few of our guys so they can spy on foreigners"?

      Don't you think it would be far easier (and more secure) for them to just set up their own front company?

    5. Re:I am an American by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Sometimes it's much harder to start a company, build your own products (e.g. xerox machines), establish a well known brand, then do the spy stuff:
      http://www.editinternational.com/read.php?id=47ddf19823b89
      http://tinyurl.com/a7b9jql

      I doubt the CIA call up random companies. But as you can see they definitely do use existing established companies.

      --
    6. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      umm, maybe coke would like their delivery drivers to find the correct locations to deliver the products where they're supposed to go? And maybe GPS is a good way to achieve this? God knows, the area I live in isn't nearly as big as china, and I still get lost, so GPS is useful to find my way. Or maybe you're just a shill?

    7. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "They" already know who you are, if "they" want to. It is fairly easy to track down someone based on the content of their posts, even if you never reveal your real name or adress. Come on, you could at least made their job harder by posting AC.

    8. Re:I am an American by RabidReindeer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thanks for posting through slashdot. We will now trace and destroy you.

      Unfortunately, this is no longer funny. Thanks to such freedom-loving devices as the Patriot Act and that lovely little thing known as FISA, "interested" organizations can march up to Slashdot, demand all sorts of records under total secrecy (at least until yesterday's court ruling), use them as a basis for back-tracking, and apply pressure to foreign entities that would allow them to repeat the process all the way down to drawing cross-hairs on a drone-strike map.

      Don't forget that post-9/11, your American citizenship effectively ends when you leave the boundaries of the USA. And, for the most part enter a US airport. You can also effectively lose your citizenship if someone chooses to label you an "enemy combatant". We no longer cling to the 200-year old archaisms that Once an American, Always an American, Innocent Until Proven Guilty, or other such quaint and silly "self evident truths". We may have been able to hold onto them while the Godless Communists of the Evil Empire were howling at the door, but mention the word "terrorist" and we soil our underwear.

      We are not yet at the point where it is unsafe even to mention such things, or I wouldn't. But we're close enough that it's possible to receive a visit from certain people who might strongly advise keeping silent - and to more than advise keeping silent about the visit itself.

      The true enemies of freedom and democracy are not the foreigners without, it's the Guardians within, The people who feel it necessary to destroy freedom in the name of saving freedom. The so-called Liberal "nanny state" might want to take away your Big Gulps, but the nanny state that you should really worry about is the one with the flags and the eagles. And offshore prisons.

    9. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It happens far more often than you might think. They would much rather have a few people doing sideline covert work under a real company, than setup an entire fake company that still has to do legit work to maintain appearances.

    10. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incompetence knows no limits.
      Hire PhDs from the best universities and get the same shit as if you were hiring elementary school dropouts.
      Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just send your agents' resumes to their HR department and avoid the whole disclosing your plans and agent identities to potentially unreliable citizens?
      I'd guess their PhDs, local language knowledge and willigness to relocate to whatever shithole you are attempting to spy on would get them in in no time.

      --
      AC - Intelligence Agency Consultant(Accepts bitcoins)

    11. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Foreigners without what?

    12. Re:I am an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe in your world those hired agents would magically get sent to the Soviet Union and all the right places and in the right posts rather than Arizona or Kansas. Too fluent in Russian and your agents might be made salesmen instead of maintenance.

      Or Xerox would somehow decide to recruit in Russia and out of sheer blind luck hire the CIA Soviet Union agents rather than the KGB ones, and put them in the right places.

      And your cameras in those photocopiers won't ever be detected by the other Xerox employees working in Soviet Union.

  53. Re:another day, another China bashing article by Entropius · · Score: 1

    You may be arrested for that by police who don't know what the law is, but in the US you will have the ACLU rushing to your defense, and you will ultimately not be convicted of a crime.

    In China, there is nothing like the ACLU, since the Chinese government sees lawyers who try to actually hold the government to its own laws as threats to be addressed.

  54. I've used GPSr's many times in China. by sdsucks · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've used GPS receivers many times in China, and even has friendly discussions with airport security about some of them. Never had any problem.

    That said, I've also been followed during many (most?) of my trips to China, and for some reason they are always doing air duct work just before I get into my hotel rooms...

    1. Re:I've used GPSr's many times in China. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poor little deluded man.

    2. Re:I've used GPSr's many times in China. by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Really? You have drink so much of the anti-China news cool aid that even when you visit China you feel like you are being followed. Lol.

      From the expat community I know here in China, there was only one incident once with a woman that worked for the US nuclear commission, and all they did was make it very obvious she had security guards following her everywhere. Chinese are not too refined when they do their job, a couple of months in China will teach you that very quickly.

  55. Re:so people from the outsite can't take there cel by sdsucks · · Score: 1

    These days, tech companies send their employees to China with scrubbed laptops and burn phones for this reason. Then they scrub them again as soon as they get home.

    The sad part is how long that took to become the norm.

    I was recommending this long ago, and only in the last year or two has it become commonplace. Of course, I do the same thing when I travel to the US - except then I don't even bother copying my legally purchased mp3's as I know there is a good chance I'll get harassed about them.

  56. Re:another day, another China bashing article by hedwards · · Score: 1

    I used to be a security officer and that's simply not true. At most, you might be questioned about it, and even that's relatively unlikely unless you're already under surveillance. But, if they're going any further than that, you've likely done something else that raised suspicion.

  57. Re:Fuck USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Slashdot is a US website. Most users here reside in the US... There might be a slight bias, even though /. tries to be neutral.

  58. Fuck you PLA propaganda officer by Su27K · · Score: 1

    When China is finally freed from communist dictatorship, you and your bosses will be hanged in front of Tiananman Square, I'm waiting for that day to come to piss on your corpse

    1. Re:Fuck you PLA propaganda officer by citizenr · · Score: 1

      I just pooped into my diaper made out of your country flag.

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    2. Re:Fuck you PLA propaganda officer by Su27K · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? You have no clue what my country even is.

  59. No, Chinese workers made all that by Su27K · · Score: 1

    Not the Chinese communist dictatorship government, the worker and people of China wants to fuck their government too.

    1. Re:No, Chinese workers made all that by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Oh, so that's what I need to do to keep the local ladies at bay next time I'm in the PRC--just explain to them that I really don't work for the government, and they'll lose interest?

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:No, Chinese workers made all that by Su27K · · Score: 1

      Not funny at all, try another one.

  60. Re:Fuck China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You're saying it wrong; it's: " Cops are so stupid!" All they're good for are guarding jails and enforcing court orders; it's been a universal problem that's been a bane to humanity since time immemorial.

    The various factions in the Middle East are fighting each other to be the ones in control; those in Germany at one time thought it was all about them and had a master plan that was best for everyone when they controlled everything--the authenticated authorities in China aren't any different. Yet, especially when they lack any checks and balances, this experience of being "security" seems to mean to them everyone else are stupid, less than human and only they can do everything in the best way for everyone else.

  61. When wasn't USA a beacon of freedom? by Su27K · · Score: 1

    Pretty all the time I can think of. Just because it has flaws doesn't mean it can't be a model for the rest of the worlds, since the rest is much worse.

  62. Because China (the government) needs to be bashed by Su27K · · Score: 1

    They stand for everything that is wrong with this world, they need to be stopped before it's too late.

  63. In the US using a GPS is almost treason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because why would anyone use a GPS for any other reason? You should rely on the government to tell you where to go and when to go to these places. In fact, you not only need to follow their orders but also log them, otherwise it will be a federal offense and you can get fined for it. If you do it more than 6-times you will be labeled a terrorist and a drone will hunt you down. Sure I'm joking around but it's sadly getting close to this...

  64. Yeah, when Germany has Nazi gov it has rules too by Su27K · · Score: 1

    I guess you're ok when they follow their rules to kill people? The US tried isolationism back in the beginning of last century, it doesn't work, like it or not the world is interconnected, what China does doesn't just affect Chinese, it affects the whole world. The only thing Chinese government fears is foreigners (at least for now, once China got 10 aircraft carriers, you may not feel that easy in China), that's why you don't understand how evil Chinese government is, and why they need to be stopped.

  65. Re:Fuck USA by poity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Look at how Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Glenn Greenwald, Amy Goodman, and other critics of the US live and prosper in the US. Now, look at how their Chinese equivalents are dead, rotting away in jail, under house arrest, or in exile.

    That's all you need know to understand that the statements "Fuck China" and "Fuck USA" are weighed differently.

    --
    your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  66. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by poity · · Score: 1

    If this "comparative economic utility mitigates the degree of censure" rationale which you have proposed holds true, then it would mean the US, being the world's major exporter of heavy equipment (planes, construction, agricultural, etc) and the source of much of the world's media and software, should also be immune from "bashing" and criticism. Yet, it is not.

    If we continue to follow your rationale, the USA's position as a major creditor to the Eurozone would also preclude it from criticism from European Slashdotters. Yet, it is not.

    That neither of these ring true for the Slashdot community, and that non-American people here are free to "bash" the US as they please each and every day, means that you are wrong in both of your claims.

    --
    your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  67. Re:another day, another China bashing article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this is China bashing then Slashdot is a hive of US bashing each and every day.

  68. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is debt really? It won't ever be paid, it is too big. Or are you saying you have the money? I don't, and I didn't MAKE the debt. Fuck that debt. Who's paying MY debts?

    All this fuck china, fuck usa crap. next thing will be name-calling Chink/Honkey and with a little more back and forth ultimately ending up in the final act of hitting the fucking red buttons in a MAD scenario.
    It's not the PEOPLE of either of these countries who are the fucking pigs, it's the corrupt governments of each. I can't fix China, but I can try to fix the US, here it all starts with jailing the oath breakers and banksters. Getting the media, electoral college, and these fucking electronic vote machines out. Getting shit in WRITING from our candidates promises, and EXPOSING their foreign and corporate sponsors and interests. I have to add yet one more. NO dual citizenship. I don't want fuckers in government who also hold ANY other countries citizenship. Either denounce the other country, or you ought to be kicked the fuck out, in fact you shouldn't even have been on the ballot. Also, if candidates are members of things like AIPAC, PNAC, CFR, UN that shit needs to be RIGHT ON THE BALLOT UNDER THEIR FUCKING NAME.

  69. Re:Fuck USA by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Look at how Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Glenn Greenwald, Amy Goodman, and other critics of the US are marginalised into complete irrelevancy by the corporate-controlled mass media...

    TFTFY.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  70. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most = the greatest portion of

    IOW, the poster was saying "Chine has the greatest single portion of US debt held by a foreign country" and you are retarded.

  71. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    I'm a dual national and you can kiss my ass.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  72. Re:another day, another China bashing article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not all of us. I'm in Guangzhou, myself.

    The weather's much better here, and we get an extra perk the Shanghai boys don't--every second Friday, they take our team to lunch at the Pearl River Fishing Village. Last time, they reserved the whole 4th floor for us.

  73. Re:Fuck China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You do realize slashdot is heavily biased against China. They can do no right in the eyes of the slashdot editors. I'm not defending wrongful actions by the country but take a quick look at the article history on this site.

  74. Re:Because China (the government) needs to be bash by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    Can you quit biting the wax tadpole and just come out and TELL US how the fuck YOU FEEL ABOUT CHINA already?! Geez.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  75. Phone borkened by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My Galaxy S3 has a GPS - it's been broken since the last software update many months ago.

    China has nothing to fear since we can't even make the stuff work.

  76. Re:Fuck China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Chinese people are the most xenophobic, ignorant, rude and dirty son of a bitches on this planet to top it off. There is literally not one good thing about China or chinese people, it's all fucked up and I can only hope this entire country blows up soon.

  77. Spy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if you see chinese tourists with cameras they could be terrorists (modern cameras have built in gps)

  78. I am sure the poster is from a certain county ... by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 2

    where in the name of national security your mineral water gets taken away from you at the airport which is making about the same sense.

  79. Not impressed by peppepz · · Score: 1
    Didn't the USA degrade GPS' quality for civilian use, for very similar reasons, until the 2000s? I suppose that using "highly sensitive" GPS devices, i.e. those able to make use of the not degraded signal, was illegal in the USA as well back then. Of course as a consumer of GPS-based services I much prefer the latter position of the USA government over the subject, but I find nothing ridicule in the fact that the Chinese government haven't changed their mind yet, so I don't understand the sarcastic tone used in the article.

    Remember when the US generals officially threatend to "shoot down" the EU's Galileo satellites if the system was made to work on US soil without giving the US government the ability to render it unusable? Now that was a perplexing statement, since I remember that a GPS expert explained here on slashdot that "shooting down" a GPS satellite isn't even feasible with current technology.

    1. Re:Not impressed by Clsid · · Score: 1

      You don't have to try to make sense of it. It is the typical American mentality where it's ok for me to do it but nobody else can. As a foreign citizen that has lived both in the US and China, I am appalled that in a lot of things China is a lot more free than the US. Especially when it comes to foreigners. Now, the internet situation in China, that is a place where you can actually believe all the stuff you read in the press.

    2. Re:Not impressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But isn't this an instance of China's (government's) "mentality where it's ok for me to do it but nobody else can."? Chinese visitors are probably as likely to use GPS as anyone else in the US to navigate an unfamiliar part of the country. One could, from that, conclude that Chinese intelligence agencies have probably been mapping the US for a very long time now. It's only fair that the US gets a share of that right?

  80. To ppl who feels confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You lost the ability to identify fake news.

  81. So, what about Google Earth (map/pic of China)? by ivi · · Score: 1

    Is Google Earth crippled, while your "mapping" or displaying China?

    OK, so you'd have to use GE -outside- China...

  82. China may have a relevent point by folderol · · Score: 1

    Satellite images may tell you there is a building, but a man on the street with a GPS can tell you exactly what the building is for, and who is going in and out of it.

    1. Re:China may have a relevent point by Clsid · · Score: 1

      And the main point they have is that it is their country and their laws. When you are in somebody's house you should respect the owner's rules. It is polite to say the least.

    2. Re:China may have a relevent point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would make a lot of sense where it not for non-American Slashdotters (mostly European) complaining about their experience of the US. I wonder if you would retort with the same response in those threads?

    3. Re:China may have a relevent point by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Satellite images may tell you there is a building, but a man on the street with a GPS can tell you exactly what the building is for, and who is going in and out of it.

      So can a man on the street without a GPS.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  83. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing can fix Republitardation don't even try these fucks can only spit out what ever fucking Fox news tells them. There is not one god damn republican on the planet that can look shit up for them self.
    And then tell everyone wtf falsehoods are these fucks teaching. Because then they would be out of the All white club of drunk retards.

  84. Re:Fuck USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'll take "complete irrelevancy" over prison any day.

    Also, you seem to be aware of these people just fine (control of mass media isn't *that* effective).

  85. Re:Fuck USA by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    To be fair, Michael Moore's shenanigans are juvenile and transparent.
    Noam Chomsky- let's just say there's a reason his fan base is perpetually 23 years old.

    I'm not familiar with the work of Goodman and Greenwald.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  86. Only one Possibility by Dereck1701 · · Score: 2

    I can only see one issue with high accuracy mapping of roads, it could be used as "ground control" for aerial photography. When you're flying aerial photography it is often highly desirable to have a number of "aerial visible" locations (often large white painted arrows) with high accuracy GPS coordinates distributed through the capture area. That way the images can be rubber sheeted using some pretty fancy algorithms to these points so you take an image with OK accuracy and turn it into one with high accuracy. But with modern tech this is probably not an issue at least from a military perspective, I don't know about satellites but at least with aircraft captures they can usually achieve 3' accuracy for 90% of surveyed points with no ground control. Even assuming for the sake of argument that satellite captures are less accurate (lets say 10') I highly doubt that is going to matter when your sending a several hundred lb warhead to a target, or guiding troops to a facility. Mostly this level of accuracy only comes into play when you're trying to locate underground pipelines/wiring, or mapping property lines in urban or suburban areas.

  87. Re:Because China (the government) needs to be bash by Su27K · · Score: 1

    I think I have made my feeling for the Chinese government pretty clear on this thread, if you still don't understand then I couldnt' help you.

  88. Re:so people from the outsite can't take there cel by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

    These days, tech companies send their employees to China with scrubbed laptops and burn phones for this reason. Then they scrub them again as soon as they get home.

    The sad part is how long that took to become the norm.

    I was recommending this long ago, and only in the last year or two has it become commonplace. Of course, I do the same thing when I travel to the US - except then I don't even bother copying my legally purchased mp3's as I know there is a good chance I'll get harassed about them.

    That might be a good idea too, but unless the stories about China are wildly overblown, the extent of US spying on travelers is a great deal less than that of China.

  89. US should be so agressive towards its enemies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many companies and individuals is US going after for using highly sensitive GPS equipment where that data is then leaked to foreign countries?

    That's what I thought.

  90. Re:Fuck USA by poity · · Score: 2

    Popularity is NOT a measure of censorship. ONLY censorship is a measure of censorship. If they are not censored by the mass media then you have no comparison to China.

    --
    your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  91. Re:Yeah, when Germany has Nazi gov it has rules to by Clsid · · Score: 1

    I am in China at the moment and all of what you said strikes me as extremely uninformed opinion. Try living in China for a while and then see if all the bullshit you just said still stands.

    And for the record, I'm not Chinese.

  92. It's not like by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    We don't already have high resolution satellite based photos of most of the cities in China. We just don't know the NAMES of the streets. Besides, we don't need to know the names. We only need to know how they relate to one another and what interesting things run along side them.

  93. Re:Yeah, when Germany has Nazi gov it has rules to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am in China from time to time. It is one of several well known dictatorships where I have been traveling on a regular basis. China is much worse than most people believe, but so is USA. Noticed that many expats around the world live in a strange form of bubble where they do not see the society they live in. Many of the expats do not know the countries after many years of living there.

    China is a lot more free than many European countries when it comes to actually following the laws. The problem of countries like China, UAE, Pakistan, and so on is the seamlessly random usage of the law.

  94. Re:Yeah, when Germany has Nazi gov it has rules to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm Chinese (emigrated to the US now), and foreign expats working in China, especially in the more cosmopolitan cities like Shanghai/Shenzhen/Hangzhou/Nanjing, do not experience the real China, and they likely never will due to the privileged lives they lead. GP exaggerates, but nor should one believe equivalencies which are often drawn of China and the US. For example Americans here often talk about the corruption that permeates both countries, but they are unaware or forgetful of the the total lack of separation of powers in Chinese government -- it's something hotly debated and eminently desired by its citizens, yet it is as far from being achieved as any country can get. I like to compare the two countries to the American perception of its two domestic political parties -- people will say they are both corrupt, but rarely will anyone equate one with the other, for obvious and not so obvious reasons.

  95. Re:Fuck USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    True. But extrapolate the trends of these two countries and see where you end up.

  96. Tell us news, not history ... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    Many countries consider the possession of GPS capable devices as a priori evidence that the possessor is a spy, and are likely to treat you as such. When I was working in the oilfields of Siberia (between the missile bases of Siberia) in the mid-2000s, this was well known. If you had a GPS, you definitely did not take it to work with you. ("Work" being a 2-3 month posting to the area, with a month off in between hitches. Free Russian language lessons!)

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  97. So who's trolling you for spy work? by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Is it some US government agency asking you to spy for them? Or is it the local police counter-espionage people trying to entrap you as a spy by pretending to be Americans? Both of those have happened. (And the US government does that to immigrants and other potential suckers in the US, which has led to a number of recent "Idiot convicted of terrorism for planting bomb with fake explosive he got from FBI informant" news stories.)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  98. we're headed AWAY from the communist nanny state? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    "That direction" is more government control, more and more the government handling things "for" you, and therefore having more power. That as opposed to the individual having more control over their own life.
    Are you of the opinion that the US is moving toward more individual freedom (and thus responsibility), that the government is getting SMALLER?

  99. Re:Yeah, when Germany has Nazi gov it has rules to by Su27K · · Score: 1

    You have no chance to know the real China if you're a foreigner, like I said, the only thing Chinese gov fears right now is foreign powers, this gives you a privileged position, and makes your opinion useless. But don't worry, if people like you get your way, China will soon surpass US in terms of military power, and you will get to know the real evil of the communist gov of China.

  100. Re:Yeah, when Germany has Nazi gov it has rules to by Su27K · · Score: 1

    And here's a quiz question for you, the so called China expert:
    1. How many people died in the so called 3 years of "natural" disaster? Were there actual natural disasters in those 3 years?
    2. How many people died in the Cultural Revolution? Did the party and gov prosecute the crimes committed during Cultural Revolution?

    If you can answer these questions correctly, you'll know the comparison to the Nazi party is not at all bullshit, it's very accurate. What is bullshit is people like you who doesn't know the history of the communist party and tries to judge China by what you get to see in Beijing/Shanghai and the few other major cities, and even there you don't get to experience what a normal Chinese will experience.

  101. Re:Yeah, when Germany has Nazi gov it has rules to by Su27K · · Score: 1

    And while you're in China, why don't you try to visit Liu Xia, wife of Nobel Peace prize winner Liu Xiaobo? This will give you a taste of what Chinese gov will do to people opposing it. And note, while Liu Xiaobo is sentenced to prison for political crime, his wife is not found guilty of any crime, but she is still under house arrest, now tell me this is more like USA or Nazi Germany.

    BTW, Beijing's PM2.5 is well over 200 yesterday, so you'd better watch out if you're in Beijing. And if you're in Shanghai, be careful using tap water, since there were over 10 thousand deceased pigs just flowing down the river. Enjoy your stay :)

  102. Re:Fuck USA by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    The opposite of 'unknown' is not 'popular'. Still, thanks for playing.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  103. Re:Fuck USA by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    I seem to recall that the Blue Ridge is peppered liberally with Beer Cigarettes Guns stores. Maybe you should relocate.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  104. Re:Fuck USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    noun/adjective
    popularity/popular

    popularity - how popular something is
    popular - well-known

    in this sentence, popularity means "how relatively popular", therefore the sentence is to be interpreted as: "How popular or unpopular something is is not a measurement of whether censorship exists", which is true.

  105. No. No one is going to give a damn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    China really can't concern itself with small fries, it's one of the big boys and if it gets into a war with one of the other big boys, like the United States, no one is going to give a shit about the collateral damage that one side may cause to the other.

    International opinion and the collateral damage of the type you mentioned only matters when it's a powerful country attacking a smaller one.

    China vs. United States

    (a) It'll never happen, they're too dependent on one another.
    and
    (b) They may each have strengths or weaknesses, but neither would be playing the part of "small country".

    When it gets right down to it, I bet it's more about it being an American technology (GPS) and not Beidou. It would explain why this is an issue now, since China is pushing Beidou use now.

  106. ... as in the opposite of "within" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Foreigners without what?

    The word "without" is used as the opposite of "within" (from the outside) ...

    Example: "enemy within" vs "enemy without"

  107. Re:Fuck China - No Fuck You by Rich0 · · Score: 1

    China also owns most of US foreign debt.

    While most of your other points demonstrate how much the US depends on China, this particular point really demonstrates how much China depends on the US. China holding US debt gives them no power over the US whatsoever, but it does create the risk of losing that investment should something really bad happen to the US.

    Nations being in debt isn't the same as individuals being in debt. If I owe a bank $50k then as long as I make my payments on time they really have no power over me (they can't just "call my loan" in almost any normal loan, despite what some seem to think). If I fail to make payments they're worse-off than I am to start - after all, I still have whatever I got with the $50k they loaned me and they're out my loan payments. The power the bank has is to convince the local government to step in and seize assets for them. Most first world governments will do this, since they recognize the value of having banks, and banks can't exist if bad things don't happen to those who fail to pay their debts. Even so, the bank would rather you just made the payments - they're going to take a loss if they have to foreclose (usually). However, for a secured loan they can usually get back the bulk of the principal.

    Nations aren't the same as people. If a nation stops making debt payments there is nobody for other nations to appeal to. They could stop loaning money (which they can do even if the country makes its payments), and they could invade (which they can also do even if the country makes its payments). For the most part loaning money to another nation results in big losses if the other nation defaults. When you're talking about a nation the size of the US you really have no discourse if there is a default. If you try to economically punish the US you just make it that much less likely that you'll get paid, and there aren't really any military options unless the whole world wants to unite and put their national populations through a big meat grinder just to prove a point.

    In any case, a total US default (that is, a total loss on all bonds - not just a delayed payment) is pretty unlikely. I doubt Congress is dumb enough to delay a payment, but if it happened US debt interest rates would skyrocket, and suddenly there would be a big revenue shortfall. The domestic consequences of that would be dramatic, but once everybody is sick of politicians sacrificing the national economy on the altar of ideology tax rates would get cranked up on the wealthy and the debt would get paid down quickly until all the economic indicators approached some kind of normality (though with US interest rates now being closer to countries like France than where they are now). I doubt debt-holders would really lose much of anything. The only way I could see those loaning the US losing out is if some kind of ultra-nationalist faction rose to power and decided to increase revenue so as to not be dependent on deficit spending, and decide to default on the debt (not because they couldn't afford to pay it, but because ideologically they refuse to do so). A government that is dependent on deficit spending has good reason to keep a good credit rating. A government that sees no need for deficit spending does not care what its credit rating is.

    In any case, there isn't likely to be a war between the US and China. At this point everybody has their bread and circuses on both sides of those borders. People got tired of attending funerals over political ideology half a world away back in the 60s.

  108. Re:Fuck USA by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    popular != [merely] 'widely known': popular = 'widely liked'.

    For example, I would not characterise a Pap smear as "popular" with women, even though every woman I know is well aware of it, and has one done every year or so.

    Likewise, I would not refer to toothbrushes as "popular" despite the fact that I don't think I know a single person who doesn't own at least one of them.

    In any case, my original point still stands:

    The most effective and insidious form of censorship is not distinguished by mere blocking of access to facts; rather, it is accomplished by persuading people that truths considered undesirable by the rulers are actually falsehoods, or--even better--simply unimportant.

    This is how the big boys do it--with misinformation. No black magic marker required!

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.