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How Beer Gave Us Civilization

Hugh Pickens writes "Jeffrey P. Khan writes in the NY Times about how recent anthropological research suggests that human's angst of anxiety and depression ultimately results from our transformation, over tens of thousands of years, from biologically shaped, almost herd-like prehistoric tribes, to rational and independent individuals in modern civilization. The catalyst for suppressing the rigid social codes that kept our clans safe and alive was fermented fruit or grain. 'Once the effects of these early brews were discovered, the value of beer must have become immediately apparent,' writes Khan. 'With the help of the new psychopharmacological brew, humans could quell the angst of defying those herd instincts. Conversations around the campfire, no doubt, took on a new dimension: the painfully shy, their angst suddenly quelled, could now speak their minds.' Examining potential beer-brewing tools in archaeological remains from the Natufian culture in the Eastern Mediterranean, the team concludes that 'brewing of beer was an important aspect of feasting and society in the Late Epipaleolithic' era. In time, humans became more expansive in their thinking, as well as more collaborative and creative. A night of modest tippling may have ushered in these feelings of freedom — though, the morning after, instincts to conform and submit would have kicked back in to restore the social order. Today, many people drink too much because they have more than average social anxiety or panic anxiety to quell — disorders that may result, in fact, from those primeval herd instincts kicking into overdrive. But beer's place in the development of civilization deserves at least a raising of the glass. As the ever rational Ben Franklin supposedly said, 'Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.'"

325 comments

  1. Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dogs, language, agriculture, evolution... the difficult part is saying what didn't give us civilization.

    1. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2

      Agriculture may have given us civilization but beer gave us agriculture.

    2. Re:Everything gave us civilization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also, in the fertile crescent lands (Egypt especially), beer was one of the few (health-wise) safe means of hydrating yourself (I wouldn't want to touch the water of Nile, much less drink it), and also an important source of nutrients other than starch. (Of course, "beer" probably meant something slightly different back then, don't imagine the pasteurized clear liquid we're in the habit of drinking nowadays.)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Everything gave us civilization by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agriculture gave us civilization. Agriculture allowed people to transition from fully nomadic or nearly fully nomadic lifestyles to settled ones. It allowed relatively small areas to be settled by sedentary populations and then gave the techniques to support the growth of those civilizations.

      Why anyone would attribute booze or dogs, or imagine that somehow we were fucking cattle before we started to drink (and I'm sure humans started to drink a looong time before we ever settled down) is beyond me. I guess you've got to sell something to a newspaper, but there's little enough mystery as to why civilization arose, and certainly there are enough examples to show the same thing over and over again... Agriculture, agriculture, agriculture.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:Everything gave us civilization by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Informative

      I doubt that claim as well. Beer was a byproduct of agriculture, not a causative agent.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:Everything gave us civilization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's a little bit too simplified. Truth is that there seems to have been a feedback loop between all of the following: grain agriculture, beer brewing, division of labour, social stratification, record keeping/taxation, and state-organized religion (time keeping/agrarian year planning). I guess one could draw a nice graph showing how every one of these supported all the remaining ones.

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      Ezekiel 23:20
    6. Re:Everything gave us civilization by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Informative

      The first evidence of the growing of grain predates the first evidence of beer by a considerable length of time. We don't know all the answers, but we do know that the earliest grain crops were grown in northern Iraq and northern Iran, and that it appears that it started as a sort seasonal planting by semi-nomadic groups that would return to harvest the grain later. The innovation, whatever drove it, was to be able to learn sufficiently advanced techniques to increase yields so that you could stay by the crops; to defend them, to maintain them. That's the feedback right there.

      Beer is something that comes along, by the looks of it, after we have pretty much all the basics of sedentary agricultural societies already in place.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      that it was safe to drink was just a side effect of the boiling part of the brewing, if they had boiled water it would have been ok to drink too

    8. Re:Everything gave us civilization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is true, but the alcohol content helped preserve the drinking safety, and the yeast contents was important on it own, nutrition-wise.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    9. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Immerman · · Score: 4, Funny

      Indeed. *Real* beer needs to be chewed.

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      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    10. Re:Everything gave us civilization by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Beer brewing leaves an archeological trace? All you need is a container.

      Apes get drunk on naturally occurring alcohol. I'm sure early hunter gatherers did the same. I'd be surprised if they didn't learn how to let the fruits lay around to make alcohol when they wanted.

      That said, beer came after fruit wines. Sugar vs. Starch, simpler process.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    11. Re:Everything gave us civilization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      You're certainly right, grain crops as such do predate all the things I've mentioned, but as far as I know, all the other developed quite synchronously later, together with organized irrigation works (which, by then, were basically large-scale state projects). The very first agricultural communities did not do any of this, but for that matter, they also suffered horribly, nutrition-wise. Paleopathology of the first agrarian communities draws a horrible picture of malnutrition (pollen analysis suggests the decrease of variety in consumed plants from hundreds to just 8-10 in space of two or three generations), skeletal deformations and other developmental problems. The beer would have helped them (at least partially) with the first one.

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      Ezekiel 23:20
    12. Re:Everything gave us civilization by SpazmodeusG · · Score: 1

      Here's a simple way to rule out things that didn't give us civilization. Were there civilizations without those things?

      If so that would indicate that item is not required for civilization. The Maui of New Zealand and other polynesians for example did not have dogs or beer but certainly met the requirements of a civilization. Dogs and beer are therefore not a requirement of civilization.

    13. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Immerman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, considering that many animals show evidence of intentionally seeking out alcohol (overripe fruit, etc.), and some such as elephants actually make it themselves (pulping and burying fruit that they later dig up and consume), I'm willing to bet human alcohol production predates agriculture by a pretty big margin. Admittedly that was probably more stuff like wine, mead, and possibly kefir (fermented milk). Beer is after all a rather complicated and roundabout way of producing alcohol, and I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't get invented until there were a bunch of bored, thirsty folks sitting around one winter wishing they had more wine, and that fruit kept as well as all the worthless low-sugar grain they had stockpiled. Necessity is the mother of invention after all.

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      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    14. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, you have to cook it, so beer leaves a container that's been used for boiling, which has soots on the outside. Further, as it's stored for a while, the pot (assuming one pot) also has a corresponding lid, that has been shaped to allow for outgassing. Since you probably don't leave it on the fire indefinitely, and you make a meaningful quantity of beer, it's large and has some way to get it off the fire while it's full, or some way to get the fire out from under it. All of the sudden, this isn't the normal stew pot, which was sized for a family. There are other traces too, including whatever they did with the grain solids. Not simple.

    15. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Makes sense - beer is high technology when it comes to alcohol production. No reason to even consider grain unless you don't have a good source of sugar - like say you've settled down in one place and have mountains of grain, but not much fruit, honey, milk, etc. with which to make alcohol. Desperate men and all that...

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      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    16. Re:Everything gave us civilization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Informative

      Beer brewing leaves an archeological trace? All you need is a container.

      On ancient Middle-Eastern archaeological sites, you find beer breweries and bread bakeries side by side. It's virtually as regular as the floor plan of post-11th century Benedictine monasteries in Europe.

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      Ezekiel 23:20
    17. Re:Everything gave us civilization by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Why anyone would attribute booze or dogs, or imagine that somehow we were fucking cattle before we started to drink

      Poor choice of words, I don't think bestiality has anything to do with it. But the fact is, we STILL follow the herd. We ARE Cattle.

      When you said "dogs" was that an iPhone autocorrect and you meant "drugs"? Dogs were the first domestic animals and we've had them for over 100,000 years. Domestication of animals played a huge part in our becoming civilized.

      You're right that we certainly were drinking before agriculture; fruit juice ferments naturally and there were certainly drunken cave men, and probably used other intoxicants as well (hemp, for example).

    18. Re:Everything gave us civilization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Informative
      Here's an example of an pre-dynastic Egyptian brewery:

      The vats, with a height of at least 65cm and a maximum diameter of 85cm, are estimated to have contained about 16 gallons (65 litres) each. The six vats together could thus hold approximately 100 gallons (390 litres). If used on a full time basis, this brewery could produce 300 gallons a week allowing 2 days for fermentation in the vat. Output could be as high as 300 gallons a day if the liquid was transferred to other vessels for fermentation. This is output clearly far in excess of domestic needs. Using the capacity of the standard beer jar of Dynastic times, the daily output of brewery of 300 gallons a day could provide a daily ration for 454 people if each received one jar, or half that number if they received two (the standard Dynastic ration).

      This was a substantial operation by the day's standards.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    19. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And all that stuff is a product of civilization while also being a cause or stepping stone for another stage... even the evolution of other species is both influenced by and influencing human behaviour.

      Anyone who keeps talking about singular causes for 'civilization' is a babbling idiot and should be ridiculed.

    20. Re:Everything gave us civilization by SpazmodeusG · · Score: 2

      Well i'm a fool. Looked it up and it turns out the Polynesians did have dogs (the Kuri). No beer though.

    21. Re:Everything gave us civilization by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You can ferment wine with nothing but a container. No boiling required.

      I'm willing to bet you could make low efficiency beer with only malted grain. Most of the starch wouldn't ferment, but still some alcohol.

      What you point to is clearly an advanced operation, I bet their are no signs of the first bakeries ether.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    22. Re:Everything gave us civilization by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      They never made bread before that period? What signs where left of hunter gatherer grain processing? How would archeologists tell the difference between what they were doing with the grain?

      Nobody addresses the fruit wine, much more likely path to first booze? Even monkeys get drunk when the fruit is dropping.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    23. Re:Everything gave us civilization by ExploHD · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Vessels that had been used for making beer are identified by beer specific chemical traces on the inside of conatiners. Soot residue is a terrible indicator; and no, you do not need to place a container on the fire to boil water. You can boil water in water-tight weaved baskets by placing rocks that have come off of the fire. They hold a lot of heat and with multiple rocks you can boil for as long as you need.

    24. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...and in Europe, chewed warm.

    25. Re:Everything gave us civilization by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, considering that many animals show evidence of intentionally seeking out alcohol (overripe fruit, etc.), and some such as elephants actually make it themselves (pulping and burying fruit that they later dig up and consume)

      I think this is baloney. When I Googled for information on elephants making their own booze, I instead got a page full of articles debunking the myth that they even get drunk at all, much less make their own. Here is a link from National Geographic. There are plenty more like it.

    26. Re:Everything gave us civilization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      It's actually pretty easy to identify beer-brewing vats, they contain partially or almost fully carbonized starchy residue with embedded grains of fermented barley at the bottom.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    27. Re:Everything gave us civilization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      What you point to is clearly an advanced operation, I bet their are no signs of the first bakeries ether.

      Depends on whether you're talking about domestic baking or large-scale public works; the latter leave unmistakable traces on archaeological sites (but of course, they don't apply to the earliest agricultural communities, say pre-3500 BCE).

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    28. Re:Everything gave us civilization by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Banks.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    29. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The alcohol content of beer-as-substitute-for-water was very low, like less than 2%. I don't think it was the alcohol content so much as the preparation and then subsequently storing the beer separate from sources of contamination. Obviously the alcohol and, more importantly, the Ph helped, but it probably wouldn't have been smart to put a cup of unboiled water into a cask of beer before serving.

      Wine, as made around the mediterranean, had a much higher alcohol content, closer to modern beer. That was probably much safer to drink. I imagine people still got sick from contaminated beer, just not as often or as severely.

      In developing countries its usually safe to drink soda because a) the manner in which it was made and b) it doesn't contaminate as easily because of the CO2 and Ph. You can buy soda in a plastic zip-lock bag tied around a straw and it's relatively safe. That's the modern-day equivalent to beer, and there's no alcohol.

    30. Re:Everything gave us civilization by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've seen plenty of grain-processing tools. No, you can't tell 10,000 years later whether the grain ground up was going in beer or flour for baking. But baking and beer could be determined by the oven/stove setup. You sound like a smart person with a large gap of knowledge who is asking stupid questions without any deference to authority. If someone says "it was done this way" don't argue unless you know that to be wrong. Otherwise, it makes you look stupid. Go take a college class if you really want to know. There are thousands of years of anthropology you are asking for in a couple sound bites. It isn't going to work very well, and the ones persistent enough to continue answering are likely ones that don't know that much, but enjoy the arguing.

      And yes, sugar-heavy fruits were likely fermented well before grains.

    31. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Come on people! Did none of you watch the Discovery Channel, at least before it changed to a reality TV format?

      There are countless tribes in the Amazon, Africa, Polynesia, etc who ferment grains and starches. None of them practice agriculture to any large extent, and many are purely hunter-gatherer.

      Spit into a bowl of pulp-of-some-tree, mix, wait, get drunk. This isn't rocket science. We've clearly been doing it long before agriculture.

      And animals do it, too, apparently, if other posts in this thread are to believed. Apparently fermenting shit is really easy, except for, perhaps industrial man. The problem is that you're all perfectionists. 10000 years ago people weren't so damn picky.

    32. Re:Everything gave us civilization by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      what didn't give us civilization

      - herpes?

      By the way if beer gives us civilisation, vodka takes it away.

    33. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Nobody addresses the fruit wine, much more likely path to first booze?

      That's because the topic of conversation is the advent of beer, not wine, not even the advent of human consumption of alcohol.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    34. Re:Everything gave us civilization by HnT · · Score: 4, Funny

      Aaah yes, they call it "Mudder's Milk"! Now let's hear of our hero Jayne once more!

      --
      "Only one thing is impossible for God: To find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." - Mark Twain
    35. Re:Everything gave us civilization by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm not arguing about the oven/stove setup.

      I'm saying there is no way of knowing if hunter gatherers had devised a way of making beer like beverages because they would have left no trace.

      This is all happening thousands of years before the period that you reference, which is clearly after the agricultural revolution.

      If you are discussing which came first ag revolution or beer, citing references clearly after the ag. revolution doesn't really advance the discussion. Permanent bakeries/breweries aren't in question. When you say 'it was done this way' be sure you are talking about the correct era. Otherwise, it makes you look stupid.

      How did hunter gatherers process grain to eat? If they made gruel it is easy to imagine they stumbled onto fermentation and made small batches during harvest periods. It's hard to imagine anybody 'inventing' bread without simultaneously inventing 'beer'. Especially in light of drinking natural fruit wines.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    36. Re:Everything gave us civilization by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      Why do you think people started growing barley in the first place? Hint: it wasn't to make bread for eating. It was for making beer.

    37. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1
    38. Re:Everything gave us civilization by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      It was the same in Europe until relatively recently, the Mayflower landed where it did because it had run out of beer and needed to find clean water.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    39. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Huh, learn something new every day. I notice that the article very specifically targets a specific marula fruit legend and makes no claim about any other alcohol source, but I would think the situation would be similar for most other fruit as well.

      I do question their claims as to the quantity it would take to get an elephant tipsy though - if they don't drink regularly they're going to be complete lightweights. Heck, after abstaining for a few months I can get buzzed on just a couple swallows of beer on a hot day. Still, I'd hope they at least looked in on some known alcohol consuming elephants, it's not unheard of for them to get into alcohol stores when raiding villages (though I think even raids aren't exactly common), and I have seen some videos where mahouts mention giving their elephants a little alcohol occasionally.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    40. Re:Everything gave us civilization by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I'm saying there is no way of knowing if hunter gatherers had devised a way of making beer like beverages because they would have left no trace.

      Beer requires more work than wine or bread. Wine could be done with no lasting trace, but beer would be *impossible*. Why? Because there'd be some trace of tools or brewing. You "could" do it and leave no trace, but you'd have to go out of your way to do so, and unless you can come up with a plausible reason why a pottery-making society would use pottery for everything *except* brewing beer, then I'll invoke Occam and move on.

    41. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Immerman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sure, alcohol production is easy and probably spectacularly ancient, but alcohol != beer. Fermenting starches is a more involved process than sugars.

      It's also not fair to compare modern-day hunter-gatherer societies with pre-agricultural ones - just because some cultures didn't see widespread adoption of particular technologies (agriculture, metalworking, etc) doesn't mean they spent the last 10,000 years in stasis, it just means they weren't subject to the same pressures that drove other cultures to embrace them. For example there's no shortage of food in a rainforest, and so no incentive to pursue agriculture beyond encouraging particularly tasty or useful plants to grow in convenient locations. Ironworking appears to have been known in North America, but very few iron tools were made, possibly because stone tools had evolved far beyond anything seen in Eurasia. The wheel was known in Central America, but apparently only used for children's toys, who knows why.

      Don't make the mistake of thinking that civilization advances along some particular path - if not for the combination of gunpowder and potent bioweapons bred in European cities the Americas would look far different today, and quite possibly have taught Europeans a thing to two in their own right.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    42. Re:Everything gave us civilization by zifferent · · Score: 1

      True. Barley makes for terrible bread.

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      cat sig > /dev/null
    43. Re:Everything gave us civilization by TheLink · · Score: 1
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    44. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Ocker3 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Except that soda is usually made in a local factory from local water supplies, that may not be properly treated. Coke in Pakistan for many years was made with polluted and unsafe water, sickening many drinkers before there was a huge public outcry.

    45. Re:Everything gave us civilization by dotar · · Score: 2
    46. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Mabhatter · · Score: 1

      Because Agriculture gave us a steady food supply, but Beer and Bread gave them a way to KEEP IT and round out the seasonal ups and downs. That also caused the need to put down roots for the time needed to create and store the stuff, and people brought the crops to the new villages creating trade.

    47. Re:Everything gave us civilization by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Here's a simple way to rule out things that didn't give us civilization. Were there civilizations without those things?

      2+2=4 is true. Therefore, 1+3=4 cannot be true.

      Do you see the fault at this logic?

      If so that would indicate that item is not required for civilization. The Maui of New Zealand and other polynesians for example did not have dogs or beer but certainly met the requirements of a civilization. Dogs and beer are therefore not a requirement of civilization.

      Ah, but we're talking about what specific combo gave us civilization, not what might have been able to do so. Current global culture is mostly descended from beer-making and dog-breeding cultures of Mediterranean, with some influence by China and Japan, while the influence of Polynesians is not really noticeable. So the Internet certainly was built on a foundation of beer and MAD, which explains quite a bit.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    48. Re:Everything gave us civilization by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can make some pretty good alcohol from honey, which is already known during the hunter/gatherer phase of civilization. Technically not beer, but as quite a few similar properties, especially when it comes to drinking safety.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    49. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Sardaukar86 · · Score: 1

      The Maui of New Zealand and other polynesians for example did not have dogs or beer but certainly met the requirements of a civilization.

      I think you probably mean Maori, as Maui is quite a different kettle of fish (being an island of Hawaii or a Maori/Polynesian mythological hero, depending on who you talk to) :)

      --
      ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
    50. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Beer is something that comes along, by the looks of it, after we have pretty much all the basics of sedentary agricultural societies already in place.

      How? What are they growing the grain for? Because the wild grains they started with were not really suitable for bread - it's too small to be able to separate the nut from chaff, so even if they could have made something like bread it would have barely been palatable.

      It's much more likely that the first use of grain was for brewing beer, which is easier to do with the grains that nomadic / early agricultural societies had access to. As they improved the grain by selection, making bread would be the next technology, but from a practical viewpoint, it's easier to chew / spit / boil and strain the stuff to make a beverage than learn to turn it into a nutritionally valuable food.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    51. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, considering that many animals show evidence of intentionally seeking out alcohol (overripe fruit, etc.), and some such as elephants actually make it themselves (pulping and burying fruit that they later dig up and consume)

      I think this is baloney. When I Googled for information on elephants making their own booze, I instead got a page full of articles debunking the myth that they even get drunk at all, much less make their own. Here is a link from National Geographic. There are plenty more like it.

      How about African Animals Getting Drunk From Ripe Marula Fruit
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5E5TjkDvU0

    52. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      In the words of a buddy of mine, US beer is the result of real beer being filtered through your body.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    53. Re:Everything gave us civilization by scottrocket · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why is American beer served chilled? There's no other way of telling it from piss.

      American beer is cold; piss is warm.

    54. Re:Everything gave us civilization by OldSport · · Score: 4, Informative

      Macrobrews, maybe. But the USA has an unbelievable variety of extremely high quality microbrews and craft beers. Might be hard to find them abroad, but if you look at beer contest winners the world over, you will see USA brews in the top spots constantly.

    55. Re:Everything gave us civilization by sjames · · Score: 1

      However, birds will eat fermenting berries and get drunk. Elephants DO like to get drunk, but they do it by stealing brewed alcohol from humans. I have no idea how the widely reported drunk moose stuck in a tree got it's alcohol.

    56. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I visted the museum devoted to the history of Amsterdam, I learned that the building was a former orphanage, and the children drank beer for these same reasons. The orphans did not drink the canal water nearby, although I can imagine rain collection was certainly possible if anyone was interested enough to do it.

      http://amsterdammuseum.nl/

    57. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Buchenskjoll · · Score: 1

      True, the Nile contains substances that are bad for you, such as crocodiles...

      --
      -- Make America hate again!
    58. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Sulphur · · Score: 3, Funny

      Except that soda is usually made in a local factory from local water supplies, that may not be properly treated. Coke in Pakistan for many years was made with polluted and unsafe water, sickening many drinkers before there was a huge public outcry.

      So there was a Pakistani Bloomberg?

    59. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      . Apparently fermenting shit is really easy, except for, perhaps industrial man. The problem is that you're all perfectionists. 10000 years ago people weren't so damn picky.

      "As drunk as I am, I can tell this is shit."

    60. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to another study the age of renaissance correlated with the availability of beverages like tea and coffee in Europe.
      So instead of being in a state of stupor after a meal with the accompanying alcohol intake, patrons of the coffee houses
      were invigorated by the newly introduced beverages which became available in Europe only after the middle ages.

    61. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

    62. Re:Everything gave us civilization by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Why is American beer served chilled?

      Because, during prohibition, bootleg beer had no quality controls and usually had a very strong (and unpleasant) yeasty taste. If you chill a drink, it deadens your taste buds, and so it doesn't taste as bad. The amusing thing is that Americans mock other countries for producing beer that you can drink in a way that doesn't take the taste away...

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      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    63. Re:Everything gave us civilization by hb253 · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure beer is all that great for hydrating purposes. It works too well as a diuretic.

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      Self awareness - try it!
    64. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The British are known for awful "cuisine". That being the case, why would we ever trust their judgement when it comes to beer and how to drink it?

    65. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The wheel was known in Central America, but apparently only used for children's toys, who knows why.

      When your civilization is built (mainly) at the top of some of the highest mountains of the contintent and your roads are two feet wide 60 slopes then wheels doesn't look like a sound idea.

      > if not for the combination of gunpowder and potent bioweapons bred in European cities [...]

      Steel and horses. Gunpowder was nearly irrelevant in the conquest of America, even in the north.

    66. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not the alcohol content but the boiling that makes beer safe to consume. Ancient beers probably didn't go over 4% ABV, well within the tolerance range of many bacteria. Boiling, however, kills any enteric bacteria, worms, and any other bugs / critters in the water likely to cause disease. Wine tends to be safe without boiling since it's made from fruit juice, not fruit + water from that filthy pond over by the latrine.

      A more technical answer is that, if you simply toss water and milled (cracked, but not ground into flour) grains together, you don't get a particularly lively fermentation. Boiling gelatinizes the grains and helps break down long chain starches into shorter ones that are chewed up by yeast and bacteria faster than they would otherwise be. From there, you take some of the sludge from your previous, best tasting batch of beer and use that to kick start the fermentation of the new beer. Supposedly, ancient Egyptians boiled loaves of bread to make their beer.

      FWIW, ancient brews were probably a LOT like kefir -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir

    67. Re:Everything gave us civilization by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm saying there is no way of knowing if hunter gatherers had devised a way of making beer like beverages because they would have left no trace.

      They probably didn't have time to sit down and discover beer and figure it out, but it's possible they might have made something like chicha. They may well have had alcohol, but it probably wasn't much like beer.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    68. Re:Everything gave us civilization by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The amusing thing is that Americans mock other countries for producing beer that you can drink in a way that doesn't take the taste away...

      The amusing thing is that American (read "Californian") IPAs are winning beer competitions left and right around the world, and one of them is broadly considered to be the world's best beer. Just like our wines defeat the French.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    69. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. I took up homebrewing last fall, and I already feel like a freakin' expert. My homemade beer is really, really good, and it was as easy as baking a cake.

    70. Re:Everything gave us civilization by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      I'm saying there is no way of knowing if hunter gatherers had devised a way of making beer like beverages because they would have left no trace.

      Beer requires more work than wine or bread. Wine could be done with no lasting trace, but beer would be *impossible*. Why? Because there'd be some trace of tools or brewing. You "could" do it and leave no trace, but you'd have to go out of your way to do so, and unless you can come up with a plausible reason why a pottery-making society would use pottery for everything *except* brewing beer, then I'll invoke Occam and move on.

      The original version of the cauldron was a skin draped on sticks over a fire. It operates the same way as the more modern "boil water in a paper cup" trick. In fact, possibly the first pottery was an attempt to improve this idea by smearing clay on the skin.

      All sorts of nasty things have been cooked up at one time or another in a skin vessel, so why should beer be any different? But since skins usually rot, the odds of finding a "smoking gun" left behind by a group of wandering hunter-gatherers is pretty low.

    71. Re:Everything gave us civilization by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 1

      Apples fall from a tree into a stagnant body of water. Enough rotting apples, stagnant water and wild yeasts, you get cider. Moose and most other cervids love apples. You just hear about drunk moose more often, because they live in pretty swampy areas from my limited understanding.

    72. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. That is what the AC was saying.

    73. Re:Everything gave us civilization by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      that it was safe to drink was just a side effect of the boiling part of the brewing, if they had boiled water it would have been ok to drink too

      That is true, but as soon as the water cooled down it would start to get infected with bacteria and mold again. Sealed containment of pure water did not exist until the 20th century (probably post WWII). The slight alcohol content would help preserve the water.

      And when we say "beer" in this context, we are really talking about Gruit which was a beverage flavored with herbs not hops. Hops did not become popular until the middle ages, and primarily in Europe (invented in Germany, where else?). Also we talk about something that is very very light, at 3% or less, not heavy enough to make an active person drunk.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    74. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Why anyone would attribute booze or dogs, or imagine that somehow we were fucking cattle before we started to drink

      Yeah, usually the cattle fucking comes after we start to drink.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    75. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My beer friend has said the same. Something like, The American's version of something is usually shit until they get made fun of enough. Then they drop enough time, effort, and money into it to become the best in the world.

    76. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hello? Never heard of belgium?
      http://www.ratebeer.com/RateBeerBest/bestbeers_012013x.asp

    77. Re:Everything gave us civilization by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      My beer friend has said the same. Something like, The American's version of something is usually shit until they get made fun of enough. Then they drop enough time, effort, and money into it to become the best in the world.

      Before prohibition we had beer from around the world, then prohibition reduced the market to what was cheap, easy, and fast to brew, especially with a lot of adjuncts. That meant pilsner, and it means cheap nasty stuff made with a lot of corn and/or rice. Now we're having to reinvent beer, but along the way we're accomplishing some pretty great things. It's a shame we had to break the stove to make an omelet.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    78. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think both the article you link and the main article here are horribly wrong.

      Humans must have known about the effects of fermented fruit long before they settled and started agriculture.
      That is because most higher animals know about the effects of fermented fruit.
      So that alone tells us that humans knew alcohol way before they could be called humans.

      Besides that, humans were hunter-gatherers before the agricultural revolution. That means that humans must have known the precise psychoactive workings of just about every plant they encountered. Nature is full of psychoactive substances and some are more potent (in a societal way) than alcohol.
      So it seems far more likely that any alcohol industry would only be a side effect of growing actual food.
      Without food alcohol won't do you any good so if these humans would want to settle down to start an agricultural revolution on beer they must have already been able to cultivate food crops. Otherwise they could not have stayed in one place because that would have exhausted the food supplies in their surroundings.

      Another thing that kindof is completely bonkers about the 'beer gave us agriculture' article is that supposedly this chinese brewing method spread very quickly around the globe. This would not have happened in a community of hunter gatherers. I suggest that the world was already populated by peoples that already had some form of agriculture so cities could arise and economy could start taking place.
      Without a settled society (which already requires agriculture) and an economy of some sort there would be no reasonably fast communication lines between populations on a global scale.
      If you're a hunter gatherer then the last thing you're interested in is an idea where you have to stay a whole year in the same place just to get yer fermented goodies. And IF you DO find it interesting you would just settle down instead of going forth and spread the news of the miracle of brew.

      And this whole cultivation thing is pretty obvious. I bet a smart monkey can make the conection between a seed in the earth and the plant that grows out of it.
      Humans are very smart monkeys so there is no doubts in my mind that crop cultivation was there already even when the population was not settled completely.

      So i think this idea of alcohol being the spark of the agricultural revolution is pretty flakeye at best.

    79. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is American beer served chilled? There's no other way of telling it from piss.

      I doubt you've ever drank any American beer. Bud, Miller, and Coors are NOT American, they are brewed by foreign companies. Ever had a Sam Adams? Or a microbrew?

      And we drink it cold because it's not the 19th century any more. Do you drink your tea, cola, coffee, or water at room temperature? Of course not, you drink it eaither heated or chilled. Then why is your beer piss-warm? I drink my Bass and Guiness chilled. Join the 21st century, we now have refrigeration!

    80. Re:Everything gave us civilization by dywolf · · Score: 1

      I declare you the winner of the internets for today

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    81. Re:Everything gave us civilization by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Ironworking appears to have been known in North America, but very few iron tools were made, possibly because stone tools had evolved far beyond anything seen in Eurasia.

      First off, no. Ironworking was unkown in pre-Columbian North America. The only exception to this I know of is the Norse settlements in Greenland. There was some use of native copper.

      If you want a good explanation for why. I'd suggest reading Guns, Germs, and Steel. If you want a lazy Slashdot answer instead, I suggest trying to imagine a (horseless) tribe trying to follow a buffalo herd around the plains while dragging an anvil with them on a dog travios (drag sled).

    82. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coke as in Coca Cola? Doubt it, these big companies usually do have the basics in order. Quality standards are global to them, as global brands can suffer global reputation damage. And as positions at these firms are relatively well paid and secure, these companies can attract well-educated employees. Now, local knockoff sodas would be an entirely different matter.

    83. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Pope · · Score: 2

      Yes, we have, now stop swearing!

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    84. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The hippos are the worst, specially at night

    85. Re:Everything gave us civilization by sesshomaru · · Score: 1

      Next you'll be telling me that the best fried chicken in America isn't KFC and the best hamburgers don't come from McDonald's.

      That's treading close to Heresy, that is!

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    86. Re:Everything gave us civilization by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Sib poster points out skin caldrons.

      I would add animal skulls.

      But I do think that bread making and beer making are so similar that they would be discovered within a very few generations of each other. Likely cooking the 'bread' on a hot rock, gruel in a skin/skull and beer in whatever they were using to carry water (animal skins?). I think gruel had to be first.

      Thinking along those lines and asking: When do we see the first tooth wear based on grain grinding grit? Pre agricultural revolution?

      IMHO The sophistication of the bakery/breweries you reference upthread imply an earlier version.

      Finally how do you prove a negative? You know of pottery using cultures that provably didn't make beer*?

      * For definitions of beer that amount to sour gruel.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    87. Re:Everything gave us civilization by cusco · · Score: 1

      The carbonic acid (which causes the carbonation) didn't kill everything? I'm quite surprised. As an experiment we once poured half a Diet Coke into an equivalent amount of pond water, and an hour later everything was dead. Maybe it was chemical contamination?

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    88. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Iron was quite rare, but not completely unknown (sorry, can't find the reference at the moment), and you probably highlighted one of the reasons for that, though far from all North American tribes were nomadic - the buffalo chasers were mostly a Great Plains phenomena. It is possible that the few iron artifacts discovered originated from Norse or South American cultures, but IIRC the designs are inconsistent with that premise, suggesting they were at the very least reworked extensively. It's also possible it was simply limited to meteoric and other "pre-refined" iron - note that they only there is only no evidence of *smelting*. That would be consistent with the fact that retreating glaciers had left behind plentiful surface copper deposits that could be worked directly - making the jump directly to iron smelting without prior copper smelting experience would likely be a daunting technological leap.

      Personally I suspect a big part of the difference may also have been the nature of American "warfare" - the incremental benefit of iron is relatively small in other endeavors, and when conflict consists primarily of raiding parties rather than empire building having the strongest weapons and armor is of far less benefit.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    89. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans are anything but rational creatures. Emotion and irrational behaviour have plagued homo sapiens and their ancestors from the beginning. A rational species would not wage war, kill other members of the society, steal from other members of the society, or destroy the environment which sustains their very existence.

    90. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tend to follow this point. Beer came from bread, if you have ever made sourdough you will understand. As the yeast does it's work you get a clear alcoholic liquid that rises to the top. You pour that off occasionally. Remember the best sourdough starters (a great way to keep the yeast productive over a very long time) are over 100 years old.

    91. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Here's a reverse possibility -- bread as a side effect of beer, thus: Whoops, not enough water in this batch, why is it puffed up and leaning over the fire like that? Dang, crunchy, pretty good. Let's try doing it on purpose.

      I'm guessing the first beer was more like fermented gruel than what we'd call beer, and if you bake the same glob of goo after it's set a bit longer, you get something like bread.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    92. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Alioth · · Score: 1

      The trouble is that they don't get exported. Outside of the US, by and large all we get is the output of the mega-brewers (Coors, Anheiser Busch etc.) and they are all like horse piss.

    93. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone, OldSport, said "you will see USA brews in the top spots constantly". So you sarcastically asked "Hello? Never heard of belgium?" followed by a link with USA in 13 of the top 15 spots and only two Belgium beers in there. So, why the sarcasm if the post you replied to was exactly right? Your own link shows USA has better beer than Belgium, which I honestly found as a surprise.

    94. Re:Everything gave us civilization by NewYork · · Score: 1

      you forgot taxes

    95. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Reziac · · Score: 1

      A while back some SCA types tried recreating medieval brews, and found the alcohol content was closer to 12% than our modern 3-4%. They were surprised, but following the recipe made durn strong beer.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    96. Re:Everything gave us civilization by cusco · · Score: 1

      That would be the first Eurasian grain crops, people in Mexico were doing the same thing about the same time with maize, and quinoa was being planted in the Andes as well. Bottle gourds were deliberately planted and harvested in Africa considerably earlier, IIRC before 10,000 BCE. Squashes and Andean root crops also have an extremely early estimate for their domestication as well, although I don't remember at the moment whether it was before or after grains. Both maize and bottle gourds have been domesticated for so long that they're now unable to reproduce in the wild, and it took decades to even figure out what the originator grass was for maize.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    97. Re:Everything gave us civilization by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      A while back some SCA types tried recreating medieval brews, and found the alcohol content was closer to 12% than our modern 3-4%. They were surprised, but following the recipe made durn strong beer.

      Isn't the argument that back when most people were agricultural workers, you basically sweated off the booze as you were working physically hard all day, plus the tasks were fairly simple, didn't involve complicated machinery or anything like too much thinking, so being a bit pissed would have been quite manageable?

      I know that less than a hundred years ago in the UK, farm workers used to drink strong scrumpy (cider ) through the day quite happily.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    98. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Haven't heard the argument, but from personal experience, it seems reasonable... I find a beer when working hard in the sun has far less effect than one consumed lazing about in the shade.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    99. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then please explain why there is footage of elephants (and other animals getting trashed)? Like this clip showing monkeys and elephants eating rotten fruit and subsequently getting wasted.

    100. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Tyler+Durden · · Score: 1
      --
      Happy people make bad consumers.
    101. Re:Everything gave us civilization by cusco · · Score: 1

      Go hiking in Central and South America and you'll very quickly find out why the wheel wasn't terribly useful. Wheels need roads (or at least passable grasslands like the Asian steppes), and roads are difficult to construct and almost impossible to maintain there at the population densities that existed prior to the 20th century.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    102. Re:Everything gave us civilization by cusco · · Score: 1

      Early usage of grain would mostly have been boiled as gruel. Crack grains, toss them in water, and some of the hulls float to the top. Boiling them swells the kernel up and separates it from the rest of the chaff. Skim off the surface and it's quite edible. I've seen this done just recently in Peru, when my wife's cousin was making dog food.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    103. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean from that list that has American beers in the majority of top spots?

    104. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Traditionally the most popular beers were lagers, not ales. Lagers use a different type of yeast and these beers usually have an optimal flavor when drunk at 38 degrees or thereabouts. Ales, however seem to have peak flavor at about 55-60 degrees, sometime referred to as "cellar temperature."

      Yes, US Beers used to be pretty boring, but starting in the 1980's the US is now one of the most exciting brewing countries in the World, thanks to the micro-brewing movement. Think small, taste big! Check out the Brewers Association for more information (www.brewersassociation.org)

    105. Re:Everything gave us civilization by RatherBeAnonymous · · Score: 1

      It's not the alcohol content but the boiling that makes beer safe to consume. Ancient beers probably didn't go over 4% ABV, well within the tolerance range of many bacteria. Boiling, however, kills any enteric bacteria, worms, and any other bugs / critters in the water likely to cause disease. Wine tends to be safe without boiling since it's made from fruit juice, not fruit + water from that filthy pond over by the latrine.

      A more technical answer is that, if you simply toss water and milled (cracked, but not ground into flour) grains together, you don't get a particularly lively fermentation. Boiling gelatinizes the grains and helps break down long chain starches into shorter ones that are chewed up by yeast and bacteria faster than they would otherwise be. From there, you take some of the sludge from your previous, best tasting batch of beer and use that to kick start the fermentation of the new beer. Supposedly, ancient Egyptians boiled loaves of bread to make their beer.

      FWIW, ancient brews were probably a LOT like kefir -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir

      I agree that the boiling process is important for making beer, but it is only of secondary importance for safety. Boiling the wort (the liquid beer before fermentation) does tend to result in stronger, better storing beer, but once it passes some thresh hold alcohol and acidity threshold it is essentially safe. The modern reasons for boiling the wort are to create a more or less sterile environment where the yeast doesn't have to compete for resources, and to extract flavors and preservative compounds from herbal additions, like hops. Many modern beers don't go over 4% either, and there are no known pathogens that can survive the combination of alcohol and acidity of even a modern "light" beer. There are plenty of bacteria that can infect a modern beer, but they are not harmful to humans, just the beer. I suspect that our ancestor were making perfectly safe beef for generations without boiling.

      Another thing I'd like to mention is that when you make beer you don't just boil grains. Boiling starch does not break it down into sugar. You wet your grains before hand, causing the grain to sprout and release enzymes that transform the starches into sugar. Then, extract this sugar using warm water and you have a nutrient rich, high energy food source for yeast. But, if you just throw the grain into boiling water it denatures the enzymes before they can convert an appreciable quantity of starch. The Incas did it a little differently with Maize. Saliva contains enzymes for converting starches into sugar. They would chew the maize before brewing. Incidentally, women tend to have more of this enzyme in their saliva and made better beer.

      Also, ancient people really had no concept of yeast. If you threw yeast from your last batch into a new vat of wort and boiled it, it would kill off the yeast as well. So there would have been a period of trial and error and experimentation and failures before brewers figured out when to boil. Wine has another story to tell here. Wild yeast tends to colonize grape skins, and originally, the brewers would rely on those wild yeasts to ferment the wine. If they had boiled the wine, it would not have fermented. Fruit juices do have higher starting sugar content, so the yeast will consume it until the alcohol content kills the yeast. This is unlike beer, where the yeast consumes all available sugar and goes dormant. Due to the higher alcohol content, wine does keep longer than beer because there are fewer microbes that can stand the alcohol content. But again, this is not a safety issue as much as a flavor issue

      Boil too early and there will be no starch to sugar conversion, and no beer. Or boil too late and you kill the yeast, and there will be no beer. So, since boiling is an extra step and would have involved much experimentation and failure, it seems likely that our ancestors were doing it for ages without boiling the wort. Since we exist, it would seem like the beer was safe enough.

    106. Re:Everything gave us civilization by RatherBeAnonymous · · Score: 1

      Have you every tried to drink Budweiser warm? It's probably the most tightly quality controlled beer in the world and it tastes like shit above 55 degrees.

      Beer was not bootlegged during prohibition because it was harder to smuggle than liquor. Liquor was more concentrated and could get more people drunk per gallon, so it was more valuable and made smuggling it more worth the risk. This also gave rise to the modern mixed drink. The few beer brewers that survived, like Anheuser-Busch, did so by selling malt extract and soft drinks. After Prohibition ended, Americans didn't really remember what beer was supposed to taste like. It was also 1933, when the US was in the depth of depression, that Prohibition was repealed. At that point, Americans couldn't afford good beer, so only cheap beer made with adjuncts like rice, were commercially viable. That gave Anheuser-Busch, Miller, Coors, and Pabst a nearly competition-free market to take over. Each of these brewers make remarkably similar pilsner-style lagers. Even now they still represent about 80% of the US beer market. So for two generations Americans have drunk beer that had to be chilled to be drinkable, so Americans drink beer cold, and any new beer that hits the market has to be formulated to taste cold as well.

    107. Re:Everything gave us civilization by mpe · · Score: 1

      it just means they weren't subject to the same pressures that drove other cultures to embrace them. For example there's no shortage of food in a rainforest, and so no incentive to pursue agriculture beyond encouraging particularly tasty or useful plants to grow in convenient locations. Ironworking appears to have been known in North America, but very few iron tools were made, possibly because stone tools had evolved far beyond anything seen in Eurasia.

      IIRC the first iron tools were not as good as bronze tools. What made the difference was that iron was cheaper. If the Americans already had cheap sophisticated stone tools then iron tools could have been things for the rich to show off.

      The wheel was known in Central America, but apparently only used for children's toys, who knows why.

      The Romans could have built steam powered machines. But they didn't...

    108. Re:Everything gave us civilization by underlord_999 · · Score: 1
      Alright, let's drink our brew and sing about ol' Jayne:

      Jayne, the man they call Jayne....

      {Chorus}
      He... robbed from the rich and he...
      Gave to the poor!
      Stood... up to the man and he...
      Gave him what for!

      Our love for him now, ain't hard to explain!
      the Hero of Canton, the man they call Jayne!

      {Verse 1}
      Now Jayne saw the mudders' back breakin'....
      He saw the mudders' lament

      He saw that magistrate takin'....
      every dollar and leaving 5 cents

      He said, "You can't do that to my people!
      ...You can't crush them under your heel!"

      So Jayne...
      Strapped on his hat and in 5 seconds flat...
      Stole everything Boss Higgins had to steal!

      [to Chorus]

      {Verse 2}
      So here is what separates Heros, from...
      Common folk like... you and I

      The man they call Jayne,
      He turned around his plane and let...
      That money hit sky!

      He dropped it onto our houses...
      He dropped it into our yards

      And the man they call Jayne, He...
      Turned 'round his plane and headed...
      Out for the stars!

      [to Chorus]

    109. Re:Everything gave us civilization by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Pre-Columbian North America had plenty of non-nomadic city dwellers with no need to drag anvils around with them after buffalo. The more likely explanation is that, compared to working with copper, working iron is hard with no immediately obvious benefit. Steel is great, but if you don't already know how to produce and work steel, all you end up with is brittle black iron that isn't any better than a chunk of rock. Even if you do know how to work it, you have to take care of it once you've produced it. It's the sort of thing that, unless you put in a lot of work and experimentation, looks a lot like a dead end.

    110. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Immerman · · Score: 1

      >The Romans could have built steam powered machines. But they didn't...
      The aeolipile was an interesting proof of concept, but not really capable of useful work. The available torque was extremely low compared to the energy input, and it had to stop frequently for refueling. It wasn't until much later that anyone figured out how to harness steam in a useful manner, and other than the steam-jack the designs were considerably more sophisticated.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    111. Re:Everything gave us civilization by akeeneye · · Score: 1

      When I spent some time in Germany recently, I could -not- find a decent, hoppy beer. I'm used to, and love, American IPAs. The stronger and more bitter, the better. The closest to that I could find in DE was Jever, and that was just a shadow of the beers that I'm used to. The Bier store people hadn't a clue what I was talking about when I tried to describe massively hoppy beer. I'm tempted to take them some (if that's possible) when I go back. I did read some lamenations in Germany about the state of the brewing scene there. The gist of it seemed to be that the "purity laws" were preventing beer innovation in the country. You're right, the quantity and quality of craft brews here in the US is astonishing. The varieties available seem to have mushroomed over the past few years. Now if only the really innovative stuff came in 12oz bottles instead of $8 20oz bottles.

      --
      The man who dies rich dies disgraced. -- Andrew Carnegie
    112. Re:Everything gave us civilization by redlemming · · Score: 1

      Also, in the fertile crescent lands (Egypt especially), beer was one of the few (health-wise) safe means of hydrating yourself.

      Beer in Nubia (south of Egypt) was also a likely source of the anti-biotic tetracycline, according to research by George Armelagos and Mark Nelson. This was originally discovered when large amounts of tetracycline were found in mummies from that area.

    113. Re:Everything gave us civilization by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I wish people would stop making these hideously hyperbolic, even libelous claims about our industrial scale American brews.

      The horses are getting offended.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    114. Re:Everything gave us civilization by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Yes. If you want to delve deeper into the whys than my flip one-liner, as I said that's what Guns Germs and Steel is all about.

    115. Re:Everything gave us civilization by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      Even though this is interesting, arguing about such things is pointless:
      When you were back in school, what was the answer to a multiple-choice test?
      "D: All Of The Above."

    116. Re:Everything gave us civilization by RalphTheWonderLlama · · Score: 1

      The theory is that mead was brewed before the beginnings of agriculture and may have spurred it on.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead

      --
      simple, fast homepage with your links: http://www.ngumbi.com/
    117. Re:Everything gave us civilization by RalphTheWonderLlama · · Score: 1

      But maybe not Mead, which uses honey, not grains, so agriculture wasn't a big help. Yeah it's not beer but kind of related.

      "It can be regarded as the ancestor of all fermented drinks," Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat has speculated, "antedating the cultivation of the soil."
      "The earliest archaeological evidence for the production of mead dates to around 2000 BC."
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead

      --
      simple, fast homepage with your links: http://www.ngumbi.com/
    118. Re:Everything gave us civilization by RalphTheWonderLlama · · Score: 1

      Head for the islands.. of bush, bush beer.

      --
      simple, fast homepage with your links: http://www.ngumbi.com/
  2. Homer said it best. by Tristao · · Score: 5, Funny

    "To alcohol! The cause of--and solution to--all of life's problems." Homer (the one not from Greece).

    1. Re:Homer said it best. by Ol+Biscuitbarrel · · Score: 2

      Homer (the one not from Greece).

      Thank you for clarifying that. Wasn't sure at first.

      Someone mod parent Woo-Hoo!

    2. Re:Homer said it best. by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Yeah! So many words to say that drunk guys are hilaritaringly stupids and dumbs making fools of themselves for the joy of others, especially when there is a campfire.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    3. Re:Homer said it best. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... (the one not from Greece)

      In the case of fictional persons, it is customary to denote the source of the fiction. In this instance, 'The Simpsons'.

  3. It might be true but by peragrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The real reason beer was important was that it was clean water. brewing beer kills off most of the bad things in fresh water supplies.

    Lower inhibitions isn't a factor until after we had started forming cities and groups of more than a couple hundred.

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    1. Re:It might be true but by multiben · · Score: 1

      Interesting if true, but I'm sceptical. My understanding has always been that beer is a diuretic and not a good source of fluids as it will dehydrate you over the longer term.

    2. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Ever tried to drink nothing but beer for a week? I know a guy that did, by the end of it his teeth were loose, gums bleeding, regular blackouts, sallow skin, he was a mess. If the alcohol is strong enough to kill germs, it won't do you any good, plus as another poster pointed out it is a diuretic, you'll be thirstier by the end than when you started. So I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on that particular theory.

      And from a quick glance at the story, this theory doesn't seem that far behind it.

    3. Re:It might be true but by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why do you think that beer and (watered) wine were so popular with ancient and medieval populations? In most places, you could basically only choose between being constantly tipsy, or getting killed by some nasty infection (it you were lucky you'd "only" get some progressively debilitating parasitic infection instead). It wasn't until the Roman period that people bothered to provide large masses of population with water that was actually safe to drink, and even then, the conditions in the Middle East never allowed for that with contemporary level of technology. (Romans at least had hills, clean mountain streams, and lots of building stone for aqueducts.)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:It might be true but by dargaud · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, beer in the old days wasn't as strong as know, so yes you could leave mostly drinking only beer. Check out 'small beer'. Workers had two gallons or so of the stuff to drink daily!

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    5. Re:It might be true but by jlowery · · Score: 1

      I don't know that beer will kill microbes... read this.

      --
      If you post it, they will read.
    6. Re:It might be true but by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The early beers and wines had pretty low alcohol levels, so the downside of alcohol consumption was likely pretty minimal. I agree that if they'd gone around drinking some of the wild high alcohol beers and wines out on the market now, hydration would have been a massive problem.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if one week of drinking only beer gave anything more that a headache his must have been pretty sick to begin with

    8. Re:It might be true but by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It isn't the alcohol in the beer that kills germs, it's the brewing process itself. If your tappers (or mugs) are dirty you'll get sick.

    9. Re:It might be true but by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 1

      Its also a great way to store grain.

      Beer is liquid bread, lovely, lovely bread.

    10. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever tried to drink nothing but beer for a week? I know a guy that did, by the end of it his teeth were loose, gums bleeding, regular blackouts, sallow skin, he was a mess.

      It took him a whole week!?

    11. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Beer back then may have had a lower alcohol content then. The boiling of water is the first factor in killing harmful bacteria. Fruit was added after the mashing process (extracting of sugar from grain) to add the yeast needed for brewing. From what I understand, beer was the reason that ancient civilizations started to farm so they could harvest grain.

    12. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's true that no known pathogens can exist in beer and that's one of the reasons it's historically been safer than many local water supplies, boiling the water killed any existing pathogens while the hops and subsequent alcohol prevented contamination during storage. However, beer that was consumed daily in medieval Europe (say) had a much lower alcohol content and thus wasn't as much a diuretic as is full strength beer today.

    13. Re:It might be true but by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Beer may not, but the beer-making process will.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    14. Re:It might be true but by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      beer "back then" had extremely low alcohol content, thats why they could drink it morning noon and night without catching more than a slight buzz

    15. Re:It might be true but by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      I would argue bread is a bigger factor of cultivation, but beer is a close runner up

    16. Re:It might be true but by Guppy · · Score: 1

      The real reason beer was important was that it was clean water. brewing beer kills off most of the bad things in fresh water supplies.

      During the construction of America's Transcontinental Railroad, a similar phenomenon was noted with regards to tea. The Chinese workers would prepare large containers of tea in the morning, then drink it lukewarm throughout the day, as their main source of hydration. And while tea leaf extracts have some antimicrobial properties, it was primarily the boiling process which sanitized the water, reducing the outbreaks of dysentery that were common among other workers.

      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/tcrr-cprr/

    17. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      The only citation in that article is a recipe to make the stuff. Not to mention that our early ancestors would have needed industrial brewing facilities to produce the amount of beer they would have needed to survive, even if that were possible.

    18. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      It wasn't until the Roman period that people bothered to provide large masses of population with water that was actually safe to drink, and even then, the conditions in the Middle East never allowed for that with contemporary level of technology. (Romans at least had hills, clean mountain streams, and lots of building stone for aqueducts.)

      You mean except for things like the Persian qanats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat

    19. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most American macrobrew is around 5% alcohol. Ignoring the non-alcoholic (in actuality ~0.5% alcohol) beers if you were to look around there are a few beers on the market that can be called the small beer linked to by dargaud. Budweiser select 55 (2.4% alcohol) is one such beer and unless your friend was drinking that or something even lighter (Foster's light ice 2.3%, Mikkeller ApS Drink'in The Sun 1.9%) then no wonder your friend had problems. But since daily water intake should be about 13 cups (from the whole diet) there isn't much difference between downing 8 2/3rds 2% beers and 13 cups of water plus 3.5 shots of vodka.

    20. Re:It might be true but by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Well, Iran is pretty benign in this respect, at least comparatively; what I actually had in mind was the lowland Mesopotamia with swamps everywhere and Nile in Egypt with its own share of health issues. These are the regions where building long-range infrastructure for bringing fresh water from distant sources was virtually impossible, and they were also areas with a very large concentration of people. Not a healthy combination, this one.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    21. Re:It might be true but by Aranykai · · Score: 1

      And I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on your anecdote, sorry.

      The whole "x is a diuretic and makes you thirstier than before you drank it" is patent nonsense. This is not what a diuretic does to the body. Also, ancient beer approaches high 90s in percentile water by volume, (hint, most beer today is still over 90% water by volume).

      As to the health effects of drinking nothing but beer, you are aware that early travelers had nothing but beer to drink for the majority of their sea voyages, right?

      --
      If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
    22. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      And I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on your anecdote, sorry.

      The whole "x is a diuretic and makes you thirstier than before you drank it" is patent nonsense.

      http://ezinearticles.com/?Beer:-Pros-and-Cons&id=240782

      Beer is 98% Water, but Still a Diuretic

      Although 98% water, beer is a diuretic because it contains alcohol. That means you should not drink too much and never replace water with beer. To avoid headaches and hangovers caused by dehydration you should always have a glass of water between each glass of alcohol you drink.

      As to the health effects of drinking nothing but beer, you are aware that early travelers had nothing but beer to drink for the majority of their sea voyages, right?

      Utter bullshit. Even in the rum days a shot of 'grog', heavily watered rum, was a treat.

    23. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 3, Interesting

      From the article: "Qanats are also called krz (or krz from Persian: ) (Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Central Asia, derived from Persian: ), kahan (from Persian: ), kahriz/khriz (Azerbaijan); khettara (Morocco); galería (Spain); falaj (United Arab Emirates and Oman); Kahn (Baloch) or foggara/fughara (North Africa).[1] Alternative terms for qanats in Asia and North Africa are kakuriz, chin-avulz, and mayun. Common variants of qanat in English include kanat, khanat, kunut, kona, konait, ghanat, ghundat.

      The qanat technology is known to have been developed by the Persian people sometime in the early 1st millennium BC and to have spread from there slowly west- and eastward.[2][3][4][5][6]

      The value of a qanat is directly related to the quality, volume and regularity of the water flow. Much of the population of Iran and other arid countries in Asia and North Africa historically depended upon the water from qanats; the areas of population corresponded closely to the areas where qanats are possible."

      For my money substituting beer for water is a non runner.

    24. Re: It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gunny Smith, is that you?

    25. Re:It might be true but by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      And lead poisoning. Though it was at a low enough level that it didn't cause *real* problems until after childbearing age.

    26. Re:It might be true but by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      I would argue bread is a bigger factor of cultivation, but beer is a close runner up

      Back in the day, beer was basically fermented bread. Not only could you drink it, but you could CHEW it, since it had a lot of solids....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    27. Re:It might be true but by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I know a guy that didn't eat food on the weekends for years. His only calories from Friday lunch to Monday breakfast were from beer. For years.

      What did your friend drink? Was it American lite beer? Or something like Guinness?

    28. Re:It might be true but by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      You know, I *did* read it, you didn't need to quote it to me. Still doesn't apply to the Egyptian and Mesopotamian environment.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    29. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      I know a guy that didn't eat food on the weekends for years. His only calories from Friday lunch to Monday breakfast were from beer. For years.

      Big difference between a couple of days and living on the stuff. Feel free to try it and get back to us though, calories do not equal nutrition and alcohol does not equal good for you.

      What did your friend drink? Was it American lite beer? Or something like Guinness?

      The kind you buy in a shop? I've no idea, it was cheap whatever it was.

    30. Re:It might be true but by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The more meady beers would be more likely to not kill you if you lived off them for a week. And yes, you can get the thick ones in a shop, just not generally for cheap.

    31. Re:It might be true but by kermidge · · Score: 1

      If all that guy took in for a week was a modern beer, of course he got messed up. Are you saying he ate nothing?

      The comparison is apples to oranges on many grounds. A modern beer is ~5% alcohol on average, the beer in discussion is best guesstimated (and by modern-day attempts at reasonable replication) at around 2%.

      Modern generic beers are heavily filtered; the beer in question might have at best been around the consistency of buttermilk or so, with lots of solids including grains and yeasts. So I'd have to figure the old stuff gave a lot more in the way of sustenance. We're also not talking about taking in nothing but beer, but rather having it as part of one's daily diet. A beer at that low a proof has got to be only a very mild diuretic at best and given the water content from one's diet likely not an issue. (The story and the linked articles make interesting reading for almost anyone interested in beer, by the by.)

      Generally, the addition of hops as a preservative is a fairly recent practice going back to, oh, late-Middle Ages from what I recall reading. In the history of beer and to this day all manner of 'stuffs' have been added for a variety of reasons: flavor; whatever the reason du jour; and grins.

    32. Re:It might be true but by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      Well brewing Beer is kind of a resource intensive process if all you wanted to do was kill bacteria.

      What is forgotten here is that the "earlier form of beer" was more of a Meade. It's a high protein, high carb health drink in comparison to today's beer.

      So the "Meade" allowed nomadic tribes to convert grains into more available proteins -- whatever it did socially, just from the dietary basis the production of "Meade" made a lot of sense for a stationary society.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    33. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is easily the biggest bullshit anecdote I've heard in a long time.

    34. Re:It might be true but by dwye · · Score: 1

      Beer back then may have had a lower alcohol content then. The boiling of water is the first factor in killing harmful bacteria. Fruit was added after the mashing process (extracting of sugar from grain) to add the yeast needed for brewing.

      Small beer, the daily brew, had about 2% alcohol -- enough to allow storage after brewing killed the germs in the original water and on the ingredients. Full strength beers, ales, and mead had about the same alcohol content that you can find today (except where limited by law). Fruit doesn't necessarily add yeast nor is it necessary to get yeast; often it comes from the environment just like bread molds do.

      From what I understand, beer was the reason that ancient civilizations started to farm so they could harvest grain.

      No. Grain, whether for beer or bread or both, led nomadic tribes to settle down to farm, then to make defensible towns to keep the surplus from nomads, which eventually led to civilizations to keep the largest towns safe from smaller towns or nomadic hordes wanting to steal all the surplus wealth and grain. There were no ancient civilizations before farming, Conan The Barbarian and Kull The Conqueror notwithstanding (although there were fish farms in Japan before grain farms).

    35. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good god man... do you always open your mouth when you have nothing intelligent to say?

      As most people are aware, the reason the Mayflower set ground in Cape Cod during the cold, stormy season is because they ran out of beer to drink. (Nathaniel Philbrick, Mayflower: A Story of Courage, Community, and War, (Viking 2006))

      Seamen in most of Europe's navies up until the 19th century were given daily rations of beer, usually about 1 gallon's worth. Rum was a treat, and many sailors would save up their rations, but beer was their daily drink.

    36. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This guy drank nothing but beer for 46 days: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/06/for-lent-can-man-live-by-brew-alone/

      He did just fine.

    37. Re:It might be true but by Kahlandad · · Score: 1

      I'll meet your (unbelievable) anecdote with an anecdote of my own:

      I lived with a close friend and his father for about 5 months back in the 90's and I literally never saw the dad eat a meal or drink water. I'd estimate 90% of his calories came from beer and the rest from whisky or the occasional glass of wine. Both the father and I were jobless at the time and we shared the apartment together for the entire day, so it wasn't like he was grabbing lunch at the office.

      I talked to my friend about it and he said that's just the way his dad is. He couldn't even remember the last time his dad actually ate food.

      He probably had some sever deficiencies and I have no idea what his internal organs looked like, but just looking at him you'd guess he was the epitome of health... about 130lbs and could run up the 4 flights of stairs without losing his breath. So, I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on your particular theory.

    38. Re:It might be true but by skine · · Score: 1

      Even though alcohol and caffeine are known diuretics, it is a myth that they dehydrate.

      Unless you're drinking everclear, you are absorbing more liquid than you expel.

    39. Re:It might be true but by fremsley471 · · Score: 1

      In what could have been an awful piece of television, 6 European and 6 Japanese bankers in the City of London were sat down in a bar and given beer. After only 2 glasses, 4 of the 6 Japanese were bright red and visibly uncomfortable. One of the two exceptions was a noticeably small woman who polished-off half a dozen without problems. None of the Europeans were similarly affected.

      The premise (which is widely accepted in Europe) is that beer and wine gave clean drinking water. If you reacted badly to it, good ol' Evolution found its path through unsanitised water. In the East, the drink was tea, so the tolerance of alcohol is not an innate part of the population.

      Hell, beer WAS food for many generations. It is only very recently that food became cheap in the modern world. Before decent nutrition, beer was a way for manual labourers to get cheap calories quickly. We're talking up to the 1960s here, not just the 1690s.

    40. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Don't take my word for it champ, by all means try it for yourself. Take before and after photos, that should be entertaining.

    41. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      90% of your post is sheer conjecture. Consider the practicalities of trying to replace the potable water of an entire population with beer for starters - you'd need major industrial factories in every population centre, like half the city would be a brewery, long before the idea of mass production ever appeared. And were infants weaned onto beer or did they just take water? Economically everyone had to pay for beer, and probably quite a lot - are you saying that even the poorest (of which there were likely a great many) could afford their daily beer?

      It's nonsense any way you look at it, and yes even 2% alcohol will result in a net loss of fluids, I linked to an article discussing it earlier. I've no doubt it was popular but a replacement for water it really wasn't.

    42. Re:It might be true but by shikaisi · · Score: 1

      Ever tried to drink nothing but beer for a week? I know a guy that did, by the end of it his teeth were loose, gums bleeding, regular blackouts, sallow skin, he was a mess. If the alcohol is strong enough to kill germs, it won't do you any good, plus as another poster pointed out it is a diuretic, you'll be thirstier by the end than when you started.

      This sounds like garbage to me. I used to work in a "hot shop" in the steel industry with guys who were forming pieces of red hot steel on presses all day. That meant that levels of perspiration were extremely high. A lot of those guys used to go out at lunch times and drink four pints of beer to rehydrate themselves then work the rest of the shift and go out afterwards and drink another 8 pints of beer. Six days a week, every week. I can assure you that although they were probably not doing their long-term health a whole lot of good, they had none of the symptoms that you describe.

      --
      No left turn unstoned.
    43. Re:It might be true but by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      And yet I'm so damn thirsty after a night of drinking.

    44. Re:It might be true but by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      Only if your family didn't put in the work. I can brew 20 gallons of beer with minimal work using only fire, a kettle, and a bucket. Hell 5 gallons is the exact same amount of work as 20 gallons.

    45. Re:It might be true but by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      We still have small beer. We call it "lite". Different grades of shitty beer come off of the same massive fermenter, as if it were oil. Tastes about as good.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    46. Re:It might be true but by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      You say Guinness like its some kind of amazing heavy beer that is nowhere comparable to products made by Budweiser. They are both 4.2% beers and Guinness is also pretty low in calories. It's not like it's Sierra Nevada's Bigfoot (9.6% and 300 calories)

    47. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1
    48. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'The real reason beer was important was that it was clean water. '

      Seems like a bogus argument to me.
      Why is simply boiling the water not good enough?

      Lower inhibition works spectacularily well for reproduction so i imagine it was a positive social factor (intra and inter group interactions) even in hunter gatherer societies.

    49. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The early beers and wines had pretty low alcohol levels, so the downside of alcohol consumption was likely pretty minimal. I agree that if they'd gone around drinking some of the wild high alcohol beers and wines out on the market now, hydration would have been a massive problem.

      This is not true. This is a myth which has been perpetuated by various Christian tea-totalling groups in an attempt to dismiss the fact that Jesus made Wine in the Bible.

      We don't have "wild high alcohol beers and wines" on the market, they're just as potent as they've ever been. Your perception is most likely skewed by various regulations surrounding licensing laws, which force brewers to lower their content in order to sell it under a "beer and wine" license. It doesn't take any sort of modern methods, etc. to make beer with a 15% alcohol content, or wine with a 30% content. And that's not a "high" content... if you want a "high" content you're going to be looking for a "fortified" beer or wine... which is created by adding a distilled spirit.

      As for the whole "sanitation" aspect, this is largely a misconception. People who live in places with poor water quality are usually immune to a wide variety of water-borne ailments which will cause a LOT of grief for someone who grew up drinking clean water. The more serious ones did cause a lot of problems in the ancient world, problems which were not alleviated until cultures developed sanitation practices. It had nothing to do with drinking booze as a staple.

    50. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      beer "back then" had extremely low alcohol content, thats why they could drink it morning noon and night without catching more than a slight buzz

      Bullshit. The alcohol content of the beer is based on how much malt is used, and how long it's fermented. There's nothing modern or "new" about getting drunk off beer and wine. This is a myth various tea-totalling organizations have been perpetuating and there's absolutely nothing to support it. In fact, we have ample evidence of people getting drunk and doing stupid shit just as far back as we've been writing about booze.

      As for distilled spirits, there's evidence that people have been distilling that as far back as 2000 BC, and it's probably even older.

      Oh, and there are plenty of animals which find ways to get fucking loaded off naturally occurring alcohol, and it hasn't done anything for their civilization.
      http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/journal/drunk-animals-inebriation-in-the-wild.htm

    51. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually its the boiling.

    52. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call BS. I weekly drink beer, pretty much nothing but it. Ok sometimes I splurge and have some wine. But drinking beer for a week is not going to do any of those things you describe. Yes I may be considered an alcoholic but I am an extremely well functioning one. To say beer dehydrates you is also false. Beer was a great way to preserve nutrients, and was usually the only safe drinking liquid on long sailing trips. I am gonna guess this mysterious guy you speak of either did not exist or did far worse things then drink beer.

    53. Re:It might be true but by cusco · · Score: 1

      We drink a **LOT** more liquids than is necessary today. If you live in a place where all the water has to be boiled before drinking, and where boiling water is relatively expensive and time consuming, you'll quickly learn why most of the world gets by on three or four cups of tea for the entire day. If your friend had kept to a similar intake of beer he would have been finishing off two or maybe three cans throughout the course of a day, an amount that wouldn't have caused blackouts in a ten year-old much less an adult. At that rate of ingestion the diuretic effects are negligible.

      Did your friend by chance subscribe to the utterly baseless 'we need to drink 8 glasses of water a day to be healthy' fad? Of course his diet would also have to be taken into account, as people in most of the world eat a lot more soup than we do here as well.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    54. Re:It might be true but by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Although 98% water, beer is a diuretic because it contains alcohol. That means you should not drink too much and never replace water with beer. To avoid headaches and hangovers caused by dehydration you should always have a glass of water between each glass of alcohol you drink.

      Unless alcohol's diuretic effects only count for the specific water molecules ingested from the beer mug alongside their ethanol brethen, I don't really see how this advice would do you any good over simply drink weaker beer.

      Also, beer usually varies from 0.5 to 6% alcohol per volume, with 4.6 being a typical amount, thus your quote seems to be saying that beer can contain more 104% of its own contents. Verily it is a brew concocted by the very gods themselves, unchained by logic and mathematics of mere mortals.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    55. Re:It might be true but by cusco · · Score: 1

      Almost all of the potable water your community consumes is used for things other than drinking. Even then, I can pretty much guarantee that you drink a lot more fluids than someone in the Middle Ages did, or even people in the Third World do today. The idea that boiling water made it safe to drink is relatively recent in Europe (although the Chinese knew it for a very long time before), and until the 20th century boiling water just to drink it was expensive. It still is in most of the world for that matter. My in-laws in Peru drink a cup of tea at breakfast, another at lunch or maybe a small glass of soda, sometimes one with dinner, and a cup before bed. Between that and soup their liquid intake is miniscule compared to yours or mine, and they're perfectly healthy. Replacing their tea intake with beer would not have been a large issue at the population levels of the Middle Ages.

      Yes, breweries were big businesses in Europe, brewers, millers, and bakers were people of importance in the Middle Ages and later. The desperately poor drank water, they didn't have any choice, but anyone who didn't want to be shitting their pants or puking in the street paid the penny or two per day to drink something safe.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    56. Re:It might be true but by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The fact that it is much darker implies it contains something the Bud doesn't.

    57. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      The desperately poor drank water, they didn't have any choice, but anyone who didn't want to be shitting their pants or puking in the street paid the penny or two per day to drink something safe.

      Utter nonsense. And here comes the science: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/02/28/3441707.htm

    58. Re:It might be true but by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      Darkness is not a indicator of flavor or substance. I can brew a black IPA that tastes identical to my normal IPA. I just add midnight wheat.

      I love how people will say "Oh I don't like dark beers, they are too heavy." only to drink my IPA which is the exact same beer just golden.

    59. Re:It might be true but by cusco · · Score: 1

      That's not a refutation of my points in any way. The article is about the quantities of beer consumed in a social drinking setting, not about four or six ounce cups of beer drunk four or five hours apart. Let me make a guess; you're a teetotaler whose main prior exposure to alcohol consumption is in a party- or bar-type of setting, right? Because for all your pontificating you really don't know very much about the subject.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    60. Re:It might be true but by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      You guess very much incorrectly. The article is quite clear, it's not physically possible to hydrate yourself with alcoholic drinks. Even drinking water simultaneously is largely pointless. I've no idea why I'm having to spell it out for you, unless you aren't arguing in good faith, which seems entirely likely.

      Honestly, this rubbish about beer replacing water when simple boiling alone is easier and cheaper by far, not to mention the fact that you can't hydrate yourself with alcohol.

    61. Re:It might be true but by cusco · · Score: 1

      Boiling is indeed easier, but boiled water couldn't be stored. Wash a jar with water contaminated with cholera. Boil water, drink part of it and put the rest in the jar. A few hours later drink from the jar. You now have cholera. Pour the boiling water into the jar, now the jar has been sterilized (assuming it doesn't shatter, like cheap pottery often does). Once the water is cooled have someone infected with typhus cough over it. A few hours later drink from the jar. You now have typhus. Remember, the Germ Theory of disease didn't even exist until the 19th century, people had no real idea how diseases were spread or how to prevent contamination.

      The advantage of beer wasn't that the alcohol would kill the bugs, it was that the PH wouldn't allow them to reproduce to levels that the gut couldn't handle. The diuretic effects of alcohol don't really kick in at low levels of consumption, the liver just processes it. It isn't until the quantity is higher than the liver can easily handle in an hour or two that the kidneys get stimulated, and a six ounce cup of beer isn't going to do that. If the next cup of beer isn't until four or five hours later there really isn't an issue. If that weren't the case the first time you ate overripe fruit you'd be pissing like a racehorse, which doesn't happen (speaking from experience) (overripe mangoes are wonderful).

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    62. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was magic mushrooms that really got the campfire conversations going and brains ticking...

      http://delimiter.com.au/2012/11/05/the-iphone-15-is-almost-unimaginable/

    63. Re:It might be true but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That grog was indeed watered, but it started out as a half-pint per man per day of rum. That's eight ounces of rum, served out half at noon and half in the afternoon. Not quite a treat. That's some serious drinking. Even the army in those days had a rum ration, but it wasn't quite as generous (only six ounces).

    64. Re:It might be true but by RalphTheWonderLlama · · Score: 1

      Early beers didn't actually have much alcohol content from what I've read. The wine was more like what beer is now for alcohol percentage and beer less.

      --
      simple, fast homepage with your links: http://www.ngumbi.com/
    65. Re:It might be true but by RalphTheWonderLlama · · Score: 1

      There's a pork chop in every beer :)

      --
      simple, fast homepage with your links: http://www.ngumbi.com/
    66. Re:It might be true but by RalphTheWonderLlama · · Score: 1

      Tea is a diuretic too. I wonder how it compares though... do you still get more hydrated with tea than with beer? Is tea a positive hydrator? (people above said beer is a negative hydrator).

      --
      simple, fast homepage with your links: http://www.ngumbi.com/
  4. Book on beer archeology by dargaud · · Score: 4, Informative

    For those who want to know more, I just read this interesting and quite complete book on the archeology of alcohol. It would be worth a book review on /., but I'm not good at writing those.

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
  5. Good grief... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yet another Hugh Pickens blogvertisment. Seems he's now "channeling" Roland Piquepaille...

    1. Re:Good grief... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet another Hugh Pickens blogvertisment. Seems he's now "channeling" Roland Piquepaille...

      what's the kickback for slashdot y'a think?

    2. Re:Good grief... by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Probably a few kegs of beer.

    3. Re:Good grief... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      Probably a few kegs of beer.

      I would assume that's one of the standard kickbacks on the Slashdot Rate Card... You get a little more if you toss in some "cube toys" and maybe a Nurf weapon or two...

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  6. Safer than water too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That and any grog with sufficient alcohol content allowed populations to grow because it was safer than water in many areas. Better to get a little tipsy than to get dysentery.

    1. Re:Safer than water too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Grog gave us pirates, which gave us the One True Religion (TM) which stopped global warming, for a while.

    2. Re:Safer than water too by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Well the problem is that areas will large civilizations invariably had horrible dysentery filled water.
      Beer was the only way to have civilization

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  7. Beer doesn't make you more creative by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But it certainly makes you think you are!

    And handsomer, too!

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Yeah? Then why were so many great writers drinkers? Although I've found that pot oils creativity more... if you can remember your idea by the time you find a pencil.

      Part of Nobots (not finished, it's in my journal) was written in a bar. Of course, it has to be cleaned up a bit when I get sober.

      I don't feel handsomer when I'm drinking, but the women certainly look better.

    2. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Funny

      Then why were so many great writers drinkers?

      Because all writers are great drinkers.

      Jared Diamond covered this in his book about what a civilization needs to succeed, titled:

      "Guns, Germans and Beer"

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    3. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Correlation does not imply causation.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    4. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah? Then why were so many great writers drinkers?

      So are lots of non-writers.

    5. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Neither does it rule it out. Possibilities:

      1. Alcohol makes some people creative
      2. Being creative leads one to drink
      3. A third action causes both
      4. coincidence.

      Ask Mr. Occam if you can use his razor. Or do a real study.

      SHIT, slashdot fucked up ordered lists. Sigh.

    6. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Then why were so many great writers drinkers?

      Because great writers are not different than bad writers.

    7. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's well known that it lowers inhibitions, which means it allows you to try things you would normally think aren't good ideas.

      Apart from creativity, there is a ton of anecdotal evidence -- I don't know about scientific -- that a drink or two makes it easier to speak a foreign language (one that you are familiar with; it's not going to make you speak in tongues).

    8. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by EngnrFrmrlyKnownAsAC · · Score: 1

      Jared Diamond wrote Guns, Germs and Steel. It is an excellent book but doesn't mention beer...

      Drinking doesn't make we want to write but writing makes me want to drink!

      --
      Howdy howdy howdy
    9. Re:Beer doesn't make you more creative by cupantae · · Score: 1

      It's funny how silly the anti-drug slashdotters can be.

      No, beer doesn't "make you more creative". What does that even mean? Creativity is not a measurable quantity. It's not something which can be simply turned up.
      However,
      - Happiness is important for creativity. Alcohol tends to make people happier.
      - Varied thoughts are crucial for creativity. Alcohol causes us to think along very different lines.
      - Relaxing is always good. Alcohol makes us relax.
      - Sometimes it's important to think less analytically, and alcohol certainly helps that.

      I'm sure there are more factors. There are similar arguments (or the same ones) to be made for just about all drugs. Drugs have been central to human creativity since time immemorial. They do not cause creativity in themselves, they are not necessary for creativity and they do not take the burden of creation away from the creator. What they do quite effectively is alter the mind, and many people find that some altered state helps them to create. The notion that people only think that drugs help their creativity is laughable. It's simply not true, no matter how many of you say it.

      --
      --
  8. You lost me at... by Kwyj1b0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    " ... to rational and independent individuals in modern civilization"

    I'm not sure where the author is really coming from, but he seems to claim that modern individuals are (a) less herd-like, and (b) innovation was helped by drinking

    The only reason we are less herd-like (and we still are very herd like in our thinking - just look at how certain topics are still taboo) is that our survival doesn't directly depend on acceptance by those around us. Sure, I might not have a job if I'm a douche-bag, but chances are I can still find a way to survive. On the other hand, getting kicked out of a prehistoric tribe meant you would pretty much have to hunt alone (assuming you ran away from the tribe before they butchered you), and you wouldn't survive for long.

    Also, the reaction to alcohol varies by culture. You have this idea that people lose inhibition when they drink, but in some cultures they become more harmonious (less likely to cause trouble or act out - see here).

    I'd say that the leaps and bounds in infrastructure and tech have allowed us to lead more solitary lives, which also means we have less inclination to conform. Now, if you can claim that a lot of innovation/changes was created under the influence (Windows 8 design? ;) ), that would be cool (I'm not an alcoholic, I'm just creative).

    1. Re:You lost me at... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure where the author is really coming from, but he seems to claim that modern individuals are (a) less herd-like

      You're right, the herding instinct is so strong most don't even notice it. Take a drive down the interstate with your cruise set at 5 mph below the speed limit sometime and you'll see how strong the herding instinct is. No traffic for miles, then a herd comes up behind you and follow you for a while, one guy will pass you and everyone else will follow him. The solitary car is rare.

      Politicians understand the herding instinct.

      Or look at iFans at a product launch, or a Star Trek convention, or any high school. The fact that we are perhaps the most highly social species on the planet is what led to modern society; "shoulders of giants" and all.

      Now, if you can claim that a lot of innovation/changes was created under the influence (Windows 8 design? ;)

      Not sure of that was alcohol, they had to be on crack for that clusterfuck.

    2. Re:You lost me at... by nightcats · · Score: 1

      The really important next question here must be: what will happen to us in the 24th c. when Synthehol takes over? OK, note to non-Trekkies: that's the alcohol that doesn't get you drunk or hung over but (supposedly) tastes a lot like wine/beer/whiskey anyway. Consumed on board various incarnations of the Enterprise.

      --
      Development is programmable; Discovery is not programmable. (Fuller)
    3. Re:You lost me at... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, Windows 8 -was- created while under the influence. To be precise, created by programmers with a B.A.C. level between 0.129 and 0.138, also known as the Ballmer Peak.

    4. Re:You lost me at... by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      our survival doesn't directly depend on acceptance by those around us. Sure, I might not have a job if I'm a douche-bag, but chances are I can still find a way to survive.

      Ironically, a lot of douchebags today figure dream of a future where society breaks down. In the dream, they all survive -- figuring nobody else will think to use a gun. They also don't dream about the time and energy it takes to procure and process food -- as it doesn't befit their glamorous notions of survival.

      Douchebags are allowed to survive and thrive because of society, and thus society is in jeopardy if too many douchebags are allowed to survive. Truly, they are the seeds of our own undoing.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    5. Re:You lost me at... by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Ummm....I pretty sure no known Ape species exhibits a lot of herding behavior.

      Chimps, the closest related extant species to humans, live in smallish tribes. They band together quite often for hunting and warfare with other tribes, but otherwise are even more individualistic than humans are.

      If anything, the behavioral problem associated with "civilization" is the need for poeple to behave less like individuals and more like a herd, so that larger populations can live together without constantly breaking into tribes and starting to kill each other. So if you are looking for why some kind of chemical behavioral alteration might have been required, your need to look in exactly the opposite direction.

  9. Perfect St Patrick's day story! by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

    TFS says "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." That goes along with an old Irish saying: "God invented alcohol to keep the Irish from conquering the world."

    1. Re:Perfect St Patrick's day story! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God invented alcohol to give the Irish the grand Excuse.

  10. Here in America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It gave us gridiron football (or rather, made it popular after it was invented on sober Ivy League college campuses) and made large state universities nearly self-supporting. Also fueled the rise of cable TV, and college spring break.

    There are probably comparable phenomena in most other countries, at least in Christiandom.

  11. "...rational and independent individuals..." by John+Hasler · · Score: 2

    ROFL.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  12. Uh - no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kind of a ridiculous argument since there were human civilizations that didn't use alcohol.

    1. Re:Uh - no by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Name one.

    2. Re:Uh - no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Name one.

      that would be the Muslims.

    3. Re:Uh - no by RussR42 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nope. They came along much too late to be relevant to this discussion.

    4. Re:Uh - no by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      Not civilized and also a new development. They used alcohol until their child molesting false prophet showed up.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Uh - no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Name one.

      These cookies looked like they came from the 7-Eleven. We should be able to do better than this, right, ladies?

      - Mitt Romney

    6. Re:Uh - no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost non of the civilizations in Polynesia used alcohol. However most of them did use Kava - which is functionally similar. The Maori in New Zealand did not use alcohol or Kava, until Europeans arrived.

    7. Re:Uh - no by cusco · · Score: 1

      The Maoris were a culture, but not really what is considered a civilization.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  13. That's right....blame the beer for civilization... by Bob_Who · · Score: 1

    Step One “We admitted that we were powerless over our alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable”. I'll drink to that....

  14. Advanced? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am not certain that humanity has advanced at all from tribes that hunted and gathered and resembled monkeys more than modern humans. Our ancestors did not threaten the planet or the extinction of humanity. It takes "modern, rational minds" to be that wretched.
                        When people learned how to distill high proof alcohol it was called the greatest gift to humanity since God sent us Christ. I certainly do not see it that way at all. I consider any form of intoxication to be depraved with the single exception of the dieing or seriously injured being in need of emergency pain relief. Toleration of alcohol or drugs is not liberated it is simply wrong.

    1. Re:Advanced? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      You must be a fun guy at parties.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Advanced? by mcgrew · · Score: 0

      Parties? He sounds like a Mormon, he's probably never been to a party.

    3. Re:Advanced? by dwye · · Score: 3, Funny

      Mormons love humans, whereas AC thinks that they are wretched things no better than monkeys. AC is just a killjoy.

      I consider any form of intoxication to be depraved

      Seriously a killjoy. Probably against sex because it can lead to more humans even with the best birth control, as well.

    4. Re:Advanced? by mcgrew · · Score: 0

      Mormons think drinking is a sin, which I though made it hilarious when people say Obama is a Muslim. I've seen Obama on TV drinking a beer, which made Romney more of a Muslim than Obama; Muslims don't drink, either.

      My ex-wife became a Mormon after our divorce, and married the guy she was fucking when she was married to me in a Mormon church. My kids weren't allowed to attend, since they're not Mormon.

      "John the baptist comes neither eating or drinking and you say he has a devil. The son of man comes eating and drinking and you say he is a glutton and a winebibber".

      Stupid Mormons' bibles obviously don't match mine.

  15. Errant twaddle by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 5, Informative
    Domestication of grains starts 2000 years, at latest, from the earliest brewing of beer. The "beer hypothesis" also lacks skeletal evidence, and also genomic evidence. More interesting is the rapid spread of later lactose tolerance, which has an extremely high selective index. Also contradicting the reductive understanding of the role of beer is the lack of pottery containers for it in many early cultures, or lack of evidence for brewing in places such as China, even though rice and grain cultivation were quite early there.

    So summary: beer is late, it is missing from many cultures, and the genomics would support a much higher selection for digesting of it –as they do with milk –if a small area invented brewing and this was the core civilizing agent.

    further, linguistic convergence argues for language being close to 100,000 years old, and cultural progressions, that is "fashion" are as much as 70,000 years old. The understanding of band organization - that is groups smaller than tribes that do not produce a surplus, and there fore have little to no "state" apparatus or long term castes - is not the placid realm before angst. The Australian aboriginal mythology is filled with a sense of angst as their climate changed, and they are band organized.

    There are many better hypotheses for the role of intoxication in human history. Far more likely beer takes off as soon as agriculture becomes intertwined with water, because over the long term the water becomes fouled. It also has an important role when economic castes in settlements start to become forces in themselves. It may have been used as part of combat, as the only medication they had.

    This doesn't even pass a simple date match of events to create a timeline.

    1. Re:Errant twaddle by slimjim8094 · · Score: 2

      the genomics would support a much higher selection for digesting of it –as they do with milk –if a small area invented brewing and this was the core civilizing agent.

      Uh, as I understand it, northern Europeans in fact do have a much higher alcohol tolerance than people of Asian and Native American descent. The metabolism of alcohol is highly variable with ethnicity.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    2. Re:Errant twaddle by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 2
      That is, where there is large consumption of milk as a staple, the genes for lactose tolerance are selected for heavily. The same would be true of alcohol: there would be adaptations that correspond to civilized areas. For reasons of my current research, and can state categorically that we don't see a good overlap between early domestication of grain, and alcohol digestion, this would include maltose tolerance, alcohol tolerence, adaptations of insulin response, and so on. Lactose selectivity is extremely high, if beer were the water of early cities, we'd expect similar levels of selection for the same reason.

      The "birth of consciousness" error isn't new: several authors have labelled some particular recent reductive change as being "what makes us modern humans." So far, we have not found any good genomic evidence for this. It may be there, we've missed big things before, but this one makes undergraduate levels of blunder and is being pushed out with out even a basic filter.

      Beer is SEO friendly, what can I say.

    3. Re:Errant twaddle by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      I dont know about that, I used to work with a bunch of blue collar South Koreans, I can drink pretty good, but these guys would match me with their beers topped off with vodka ... sometimes more than 25% vodka in a pint.

    4. Re:Errant twaddle by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Domestication of grains starts 2000 years, at latest, from the earliest brewing of beer. The "beer hypothesis" also lacks skeletal evidence,

      The hypothesis is about fermented beverages, not beer specifically. Consuming alcohol from fermentation is older than humanity itself; even monkeys and elephants get drunk on fermenting fruit. Mead used to be popular and goes back much further than the domestication of grains.

      As to the hypothesis itself, mostly, fermentation probably just served to preserve beverages and kill pathogens.

    5. Re:Errant twaddle by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1
      "The hypothesis is about fermented beverages, not beer specifically"

      You are welcome to present evidence for regular fermentation from the Younger Dryas settlements. But you won't find any.

    6. Re:Errant twaddle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article was just another conjecture-fest by some sort of cognitive anthropologist (or someone of that ilk). Researchers in this field earn their credibility by how well they can roll our modern prejudices and presumptions into pseudo-scientific theories about ancient man.

      The track record of these people is abysmal. They're the modern day equivalent of those victorians who were obsessed with skull sizes. But they create great pulp, and the NY Times knows this. People love the ideas that they peddle. It's like science fiction w/o the caveat about being fiction.

      I'm not saying that there's not real science to be done in the field. Just that the signal-to-noise ratio is particularly egregious.

    7. Re:Errant twaddle by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      further, linguistic convergence argues for language being close to 100,000 years old,

      Language at all, or the most recent language common to all those that survive?

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    8. Re:Errant twaddle by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Which part of "consuming alcohol from fermentation is older than humanity itself" did you not understand?

    9. Re:Errant twaddle by david_bonn · · Score: 1

      In general, whether your grain of choice is wheat, rice, barley, maize, or quinoa, you'll need to cook it. And you won't necessarily need pottery to cook it either. Lots of native american cultures cooked in baskets, by transferring hot stones to the baskets which were full of liquid. This amazingly didn't burn the basket.

      Chances are this was how our distant ancestors cooked their grains. While pottery surfaced in Japan about 9000 years ago, it took quite a while to disperse.

      So a similar thing could obviously be done with beer, and the beer could easily be stored in watertight baskets, and wouldn't exactly leave a whole lot of evidence for the archaeologists.

      And before you ask about watertight baskets, I have an Eyak basket made of seal gut which is quite watertight. Anyway, you could always seal the basket with animal fat.

    10. Re:Errant twaddle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... and they are band organized.

      This is what 'terra nullus' (empty land) claims and indeed modern indigenous civilization reveals. So where does the claim that Australia had 6 indigenous 'nations' originate?

    11. Re:Errant twaddle by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And before you ask about watertight baskets, I have an Eyak basket made of seal gut which is quite watertight. Anyway, you could always seal the basket with animal fat.

      The Pomo people who still live where I live now were once renowned far and wide for their watertight woven baskets. In spite of that, they didn't have alcohol any more than the rest of the native north americans, probably because they weren't really collecting grains. They primarily ate acorns, which were abundant here; the whole county was oaks, except for some of the western parts which were covered in redwood. I have no idea if they had pencillin here, but I'd bet.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  16. Ben Franklin didn't say that by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Informative

    For the record, here, in a letter addressed to André Morellet in 1779, is what Benjamin Franklin actually did say:

    Behold the rain which descends from heaven upon our vineyards, there it enters the roots of the vines, to be changed into wine, a constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy.

    1. Re:Ben Franklin didn't say that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, but Jean Shepard (Christmas Story amd countless articles in Car and Driver in the 70's) got it right. "Beer is the mother of us all".
      Yes, yes it is!

  17. Beer is proof by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

    That it was necessary to invent ale...

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  18. hrmf... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The summary reads like Ayn Rand level libertarian propaganda masking as anthropological research.

  19. I can't stand beer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    To me beer tastes like piss. Not that I drink piss, but if I were to drink piss I'd imagine it'd taste a lot like beer.

    Oh damn. I forgot this is slashdot. Let me rephrase that:
    Actually, to me beer tastes like piss. Not that I actually drink piss, but if I were to actually drink piss, I'd actually imagine it'd actually taste a lot like beer.

    1. Re:I can't stand beer. by ejgibsonfosslinux82 · · Score: 2

      well you've probably only tried the big corporate swill water beers like bud or miller lite. There are so many good tasty craft beers out there it's impossible to list them all. I'm sure theres a brew out there you'd like.

    2. Re:I can't stand beer. by KiloByte · · Score: 2

      There's beer other than Bud Light. (Ok, ok, to even call that beer requires heavily bribing consumer protection inspectors.) Actual beer doesn't taste like piss.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    3. Re:I can't stand beer. by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      When you get older, if you are very lucky, a lady might let you lick her where she pees. You'll have to work on the whole obnoxious asshole thing.

      It's salty, beer is not.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:I can't stand beer. by Osgeld · · Score: 2

      I call it beer, but then I KNOW theres two worlds of beer

      One is a fine crafted beverage meant for enjoyment, maybe with a nice dinner and company of good friends during a peaceful evening.
      The other is mass produced piss that has to be consumed ice cold so you cant taste it, and drank in bulk for the sole reason of getting shit faced.

      I have room in my life for both.

    5. Re:I can't stand beer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      if I were to actually drink piss, I'd actually imagine it'd actually taste a lot like American beer.

      ftfy

    6. Re:I can't stand beer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, to me beer tastes like piss. Not that I actually drink piss

      When you get older, if you are very lucky, a lady might let you lick her where she pees. You'll have to work on the whole obnoxious asshole thing.

      Just because he wants to "lick her where she pees" doesn't necessarily mean he has to lick her asshole as well. Especially not if it's "obnoxious". :-)

  20. Cows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I do controls engine for a major beer company... And I tell u farmers love buying the waste yeast and grain cuz their cows love it. I should we be careful lest we become cows for the cows

  21. "more than average social anxiety"?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Today, many people drink too much because they have more than average social anxiety or panic anxiety to quell [...]

    Yes for a very small minority. Horseshit for most everybody else, addiction is simply the only tool they've learned to use in their very very average lives.

  22. Mayans by ejgibsonfosslinux82 · · Score: 1

    I know that the Mayans brewed beer and if you made a bad batch they would drown you in it. The egyptian beer from what I've read was roughly around 3% ABV or so. I was on G+ and saw this article and what do you know I'm drinking a beer right now. Cheers!! Happy St Patricks Day slashdot!!

    1. Re:Mayans by shikaisi · · Score: 1

      I know that the Mayans brewed beer and if you made a bad batch they would drown you in it.

      I bet the directors of Budweiser are glad that law isn't enforced any more.

      --
      No left turn unstoned.
    2. Re:Mayans by cusco · · Score: 1

      What did the Mayans brew beer from, they didn't have either barley or wheat (or rice, if you work for Budweiser)? Chicha is what's made from corn.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  23. Not just beer, of course. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Natural means of breaking the social rigidity of herd behaviour and the bounds of primate conciousness: cannabis, psylocibin mushrooms, ergot, etc. Google Terence McKenna's "stoned ape" hypothesis.

  24. Vikings by Immerman · · Score: 1

    > Lower inhibitions isn't a factor until after we had started forming cities and groups of more than a couple hundred

    I don't know about that, aren't the Vikings supposed to have had a rule of thumb that you should never implement any major plan until you've discussed it while drunk? Of course that's another agricultural society, even if they weren't big on cities and the like.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  25. A solution in search of a problem. by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    This doesn't make sense. There are a lot of people and even cultures that do not do beer or other alcohol. This article really sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

    1. Re:A solution in search of a problem. by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      I'll bet the same cultures "do" plenty of other stuff, like khat, betel, peyote, coca leaf, tobacco, etc...

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    2. Re:A solution in search of a problem. by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      Actually there are plenty of cultures that don't imbibe or intoxicate. Since your culture does you have a hard time seeing this, you think you are the norm. Classic egocentric anthropomorphism.

  26. Yeah, but civilization gave us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    scotch. I think that's the better part of the deal. Beer and wine suck, scotch and cognac is where it's at.

  27. April Fool's a month early. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the dumbest thing I've read in a while. It's either a joke, or the product of some addict's apologist bullpucky who enjoys getting drunk and would like to believe that he's serving some noble purpose in doing so. Lame. If you want to drink, have the courage to drink without pretending it's something other than what it is.

    Anyway, making beer requires civilization beyond caveman clans sitting around campfires.

    It requires agriculture. You know, fermenting harvested grains in vats which take tools and stuff to make? You don't get to agriculture and tools until you already have functional civilization in place.

  28. I know that my beer drinking... by Ossifer · · Score: 0

    ... is what's keeping my wife safe and alive...

  29. it also kept us alive by stenvar · · Score: 1

    Fermented beverages are important because they tend to kill off food-borne and water-borne pathogens, pathogens that would frequently just kill you.

    Not thinking about what used to be in your food and water because you get drunk is just a pleasant side effect.

    1. Re:it also kept us alive by cusco · · Score: 1

      Boiling as part of the preparation for brewing kills off everything in it, the altered PH of the resulting brew is what keeps the critters that may arrive after the fact from multiplying. The alcohol is just a present from the yeast beasties for providing them such a nice home.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    2. Re:it also kept us alive by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Did I say anything about beer or boiling or alcohol? I talked about how fermentation in general tends to make things safer to eat and healthier, no boiling required.

  30. Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Choosing beer over say, marijuana or magic mushrooms as the catalyst required for civilization to spring sounds like pathetic marketing garbage to me.
    The fact that a large percentage of humans do not tolerate alcohol consumption very well at all suggests this theory sprang from the mind of Duffman.

  31. Oblig by ma1wrbu5tr · · Score: 1

    Friar Tuck: This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our maker and glory to his bounty by learning about... BEER.

    --
    Why can't we go back to using jumpers to configure slot adapter cards? Why? I say!
  32. So prohibiting drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is the worst thing we could do to our civilization?

    The biggest problems with illegal drugs are due to them being illegal not to the drugs themselves.

  33. old news.. by houbou · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Seriously, I remember myself reading this stuff over 35 yrs ago in various books and magazines. Why is this news today?

    1. Re:old news.. by infinite.intimation · · Score: 2

      Well, I have yet to read the articles linked... but like you say, this is not "news", this is a well established (though "controversial", in that it often seems to induce giggles from undergrads who say "hey, that's me, and ritual/feasting cultural events that help facilitate people who might not get along to celebrate X are important... but beer-lol").

      So no, probably not "news" to those who were already aware of this. But I guess it is also "things that matter", so I am very much looking forward to what is *hopefully* a well crafted presentation of/collection of links and sources describing this theory of cultural origins.

      It is another beautiful example of what Colin Renfrew might refer to as "at the edge of knowability" (with regards to the "origins" of PIE) - there are thousands of points of evidence, but the "truth" lies in that niche of "invisible elements of the human/social/internally lived past", which means we cannot point and say "here is the book that tells us how true the theory is regarding the absolute 'origin' of culture"... because obviously, the earliest examples of this were pre-writing cultures (the Egyptians did it, and it was definitely a "Civilization factor"... used to marshal loyalty, and labour, a "thing", a "gift" that workers would otherwise be completely unlikely to gain access to), but in the earliest cultures, we do not have the meticulous scribes and records of actions, tallies of labour and gratuities... and so the *Truth sits invisible, attested to by the contents of containers, and association with ritual sites, and sites of feasting, but, ultimately, we cannot (yet) say "here lies the Cup that Started Culture with the Beer that was inside of it, and it operated socially and culturally in This manner, and people Reacted Like This".

      (Like, the summary talking about "shy" people... that might be projecting a modern social aspect on a situation in a manner that is undue).

      So, anyway, not news, but hopefully a nice collection of and presentation of an argument regarding "stuff that matters".
      Cheers.

    2. Re:old news.. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Thirty five years ago, it was mostly conjecture with little evidence to support it and widely accepted because it "made sense". It's in the news today, because there's increasing amounts of evidence that it is in fact correct.

  34. Awesome. Now bring on the pot... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... because that's what this is all about, right?

  35. Mead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You realize that this is totally going to piss of the Mead contingent.

  36. or beer is proof by jsepeta · · Score: 1

    that god hates us and wants us to get knocked out in a tavern brawl. because god is a dick.

    --
    Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    1. Re:or beer is proof by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      no god hates geeks and has that divine plan for them only. Meanwhile, God wants others to get women drunk at the bar, to have their procreative ways with them.

    2. Re:or beer is proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that god hates us and wants us to get knocked out in a tavern brawl. because god is a dick.

      Is that his final form?

  37. discovery of the value was control by mr_boodog · · Score: 0

    Going further beyond the benefits they discovered, was the effect alcohol had on humans. People who started making alcohol found that it was very profitable, and people always came back for more. Soon it became evident that it could be used as a control mechanism, much like religion. Why do you think the earlier church organizations made and sold wine? Give the suffering fools enough alcohol, and they will be suppressed and easily manipulated. Then when they drink themselves to sickness, the church either condemned them, or came across as their saviors. Alcohol was used by the Egyptians to ensure slaves were kept under control, and somewhat "content" for continued work. Probably the most destructive, poisonous, and debilitating substance put in a human body; alcohol is the only thing keeping modern slavery in working order. We gladly work our entire lives without much to show for it in the end. While the elite, super rich sit back and watch us kill ourselves when we need to hit the bar to numb our angst (as the article states). Religion exists for controlling several billion, while alcohol and drugs keeps the rest under a pretty tight rein.

  38. I don't know about civilization.... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    ...But beer is a great way for ugly people to get laid.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  39. Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While it might be the alcohol that had helped jump start the human society, in places around the world alcohol is being banned

    If this anti-alcohol trend is to continue, we might even seen a reverse course of human civilization ... from individualistic behavior back to the herd-like behavior

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by tqk · · Score: 4, Funny

      While it might be the alcohol that had helped jump start the human society, in places around the world alcohol is being banned

      Moonshiners will save us.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    2. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by Ghaoth · · Score: 1

      It's too late already.

      --
      Nos Morituri te salutamus
    3. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      As if the Facebook generation needs beer bans to act like sheeple. Or, to paraphrase an old saying, individualism is great, at least as long as my peers do it, too.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by flyneye · · Score: 2

      On a related side note. Cannabis is credited for mankinds introspection which led to social codes.
      Consuming cannabis and beer got us here.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    5. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      Where is alcohol being banned (as opposed to excess consumption discouraged), outside of Sharia states?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 1

      You must not pay attention to the United States voting scene, if you don't think we are still very much a herd society.

    7. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by CaptainLard · · Score: 1

      Credited by who? Cypress Hill? The guy in the drum circle who always bogarts the bong? I hope your sig isn't an example of the introspection that got us here. (By here I mean the internet which is comprised of a mind boggling number of technical achievements). I kid, I kid...mainly because I've heard a fair number of potheads speak.

    8. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because all the proportional representative govts in the world aren't based on groups at all. And fitting in with people around you is so much more frowned upon outside the US.

    9. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      Roads.

      --
      So say we all
    10. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      GK Chesterton wrote an entire novel about that. He also wrote a very interesting Essay that got included in All Things Considered http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/gkc16028.htm

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    11. Re:Nowadays we have anti-alcohol culture by flyneye · · Score: 1

      http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/371/ille/library/Spicer-e.htm

      Here's one that gives it a little background. Look down around; 3.Ancient Near East A. The Sumerians

      The origins of my sig can be found at http://www.subgenius.com/

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  40. The idea that beer allowed nomads to cope, by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

    is a compelling theory.

    However, the "modern" person has more to cope with, than just the loss of nomadic freedom.

    Now we've got long forms, complex investments, licensing fees. Most of us aren't farming or doing the things that the herders turned farmers had to cope with.

    So perhaps we now use ritalin and oxycontin to "cope" with the coping for our new, non-nomadic technical lifestyle.

    I'm not sure however, so I'll tweet the idea to my friends and take another anti-depressant.

    --
    >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
  41. we are not herd-like at all now. Nope. Not at all. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we are not herd-like at all, in modern times. No, at all. Nope. No, sir. Independent, rational. Not herdlike. Nope.

  42. Benjamin Franklin was not Religious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The quote about "God" should in this case be written as "god" as Benjamin Franklin (and many of his peers) were not religious and shunned it somewhat as they did not believe in "God".

    1. Re:Benjamin Franklin was not Religious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your inability to accept that the founding fathers could be anything but Christians does not make them "not religious". Benjamin Franklin was a Deist, and as such, certainly did believe in God.

    2. Re:Benjamin Franklin was not Religious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether he was religious or not is of no consequence as all proper nouns in the English language are capitalized anyway, and in this context the word "God" is clearly being used in the context of a proper noun, so it must be capitalized. An entity need not be real in order to be a proper noun; for example we capitalize Santa Claus and Mickey Mouse even though they don't exist in real life but they are still proper nouns are are therefore capitalized.
       
      Here are examples of similar words being used as such
       
      Hi, Dad, you sure a great dad.
       
      Gee, Mom, you sure are a great mom.
       
      Dear God, you sure are a funky god.

  43. So we're all the product of drunks? Figures! by Chas · · Score: 1

    It explains a lot.

    Honestly, having heard people extol the "virtues" of alcohol for decades now, I'm heartily sick of all the bullshit.

    No one thing "gave" us civilization. Alcohol generation, consumption, and the ancillary skills required to do so are merely one of NUMEROUS building blocks.

    Anyone telling you differently and yammering about how IMPORTANT alcohol/beer is, is merely trying to excuse all the idiocy that goes with alcohol consumption.

    "What'd you do two nights ago?"

    "Got drunk, wrecked a car and woke up with a fat girl."

    "What'd you do the night after that?"

    "Got drunk, wrecked another car and woke up with an ugly girl."

    "What'd you do last night."

    "Got drunk, wrecked YOUR car and woke up to the realization that both the previous night's companions had actually been guys..."

    "Oh man! I didn't need to hear that!"

    "But it's okay! Because beer gave us civilization man!"

    "Man! God must LOVE us!"

    No. All this proves is that some mental defective has killed too many brain cells.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  44. I call BS by codeButcher · · Score: 1

    the painfully shy, their angst suddenly quelled, could now speak their minds.

    As as "painfully shy" individual, I can tell you that by the time I have drunk enough to "quell my angst", I don't have much of a mind left to speak.

    Also: Ballmer limit.

    --
    Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
  45. Drugs in General by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 1

    This argument can be made for any form of mind altering substance. Beer was traditionally used as cheap fuel for slave labour so it is probably a stronger argument if you use psilocybin or marijuana.

  46. The real value of beer by HuguesT · · Score: 1

    Beer helped civilization in the sense that its fermentation made water drinkable, as opposed to a microbe culture broth that would almost certainly kill you if you drank it. Other than that this summary sounds like nonsense.

  47. Could be the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Beer makes civilisations?
    Beer in 'Amurika' is mostly diluted crap (like sex in a canoe - too cold and fucking close to water).
    Ergo: We found the reason why America's on the decline...

    And hey, I found another nice correlation: Most islamic countries are run-down. Guess what: They also don't have beer!

  48. eh beer doesn't contain lactose by DABANSHEE · · Score: 1

    WTF lactose intolerance among Asian has got to do with evidence that Asians weren't into beer drinking in neolithic times?

    All Asian lactose intolerance seems to indicate is a big gap between past transhuman migration/herding & modern dairy products in their diet, without a long culture/history of settled dairy farming in between.

    What this has to do with beer is beyond me.

  49. Elitist Bull---- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humans are not a bunch of herd-minded cows that need over-educated institutional elites telling us what to do.

  50. You mean: How beer destroyed ou civilization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Terence McKenna has a nice theory on this, and to me a much more plausible one.

    Our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have followed large livestock, and so encountered psylocibine containing mushrooms growing near their faeces. This is supposed to have sparked consciousness. Fast forward a few hundred years when the hunter-gatherers have become farmers, and now they preserve their meat sealed off from air in honey. The sugar in the honey goes on to produce the first alcoholic beverage known as mede. Up until this time people would have been polygamous, without any notion of which kids are who's, and so acting in the benefit of the group.

    When mede comes into the picture, people suddenly become possesive, monogamous and start waging war. According to McKenna's theory, beer was a major step back.

  51. LSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The old rather have a bottle in front of me instead of a frontal lobotomy, I wonder how psychoatives fit into this problem, not to mention dysfunctionalism, addiction, desease, and death. IIt's an old rubrick that primitives are "primitive" in many ways they are more sophisticated that individuals alive today, they didn't have utube and had large brains and intact and caring social structures and were able to reason abstractly and hadn't bought into the mythology of "science"

  52. socialization by WakeelMurad6109 · · Score: 1

    well said.i really appreciate it..from willingways.org

  53. Humans are Predators by sesshomaru · · Score: 1

    We should not talk about humans as a "herd." That would be like talking about a herd of wolves.

    --
    "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
  54. Re:we are not herd-like at all now. Nope. Not at a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we never have been herd-like in the absence of the threat of force.

  55. Animals need to Inbriate by YaddaMinski · · Score: 1

    This is b.s. An Italian doctor traveled for years documenting how all animals, not just mammals but birds and insects, try to alter their consciousness with "booze". He wrote a book titled "Animals and Psychedelics: The Natural World and the Instinct to Alter Consciousness".

  56. Rational? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ` As the ever rational Ben Franklin supposedly said, 'Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.'" `

    How can you invoke God to make your point, and then claim the man was rational?

  57. Not news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Beer Brewing Paralleled the Rise of Civilization by Kurt Stoppkotte for National Geographic News, April 24, 2001. [[http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/04/0424_kurtbeer.html]]

    This is NOT news.