How a Programmer Gets By On $16K/Yr: He Moves to Malaysia

An anonymous reader writes "If you can make $10 and hour doing remote work, you can afford to live in Malysia. Make it $15 or $20, you can work 30 hours a week. Real money? Make it ten. This article talks about how John Hunter did it." Malaysia's not the only destination for self-motivated ex-pat programmers, of course. If you've considered doing this kind of sabbatical, or actually have, please explain in the comments the from-where-to-where details and reasons.

Comments

30 hours per week?

[Gordonjcp]

Who the hell works more than 30 hours per week anyway?

Re:30 hours per week?

[jhoegl]

Menials and the uneducated.
*Rich guy laugh*

Re:30 hours per week?

[serialband]

People who do physical labor will work that much. Some people with 2 jobs work more.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or people who work for Electronic Arts.

Re:30 hours per week?

[binarylarry]

Entrepreneurs!

Re:30 hours per week?

[isorox]

Who the hell works more than 30 hours per week anyway?

Depends. Does "work time" include "slashdot time"?

Re:30 hours per week?

[serialband]

You're not doing the kind of manual labor I was refering to. The type of jobs I refer to regularly top 35 hours a week for a measly hourly wage. Some of these people work 2nd jobs to make ends meet.

If you work at a computer, you're working a desk job, which in your case is half the time, which means you have access to a way to look busy without doing much work. (slashdot.)

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it was a joke, but generally I would find the opposite is true. highly educated and rich tend to actually work far beyond normal working hours. If I worked only 30 hours a week it means I was very sick or took a few days holiday. I would expect the average working week for most people I work with (all highly paid and highly educated) would be a minimum of 50+ hours. most probably higher.

Re:30 hours per week?

[CanHasDIY]

When I had a job in industrial manufacturing before attending college, I would regularly work up to 100 hours a week.

Of course, I was a teenager fresh out of high school, enjoying the 18/hr straight time + time-and-a-half for overtime + double time for holidays.

Damn, but those were some bitchin' summers!

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

That's those who hope to make it rich. Those who actually are rich AND smart delegate and "work" by browsing the internet or go golfing to "foster customer relations". Which can sometimes be hard work, but most of the time amounts to similar effort as average man's leisure. Of course, they often get the extra stress of "I have a lot, how do I not lose it" so their position is not necessarily an enviable one.

Can't blame them for it either, that's what I would do in their position.

Re:30 hours per week?

[udachny]

Entrepreneurs never stop working, off hours, weekends, holidays, those are just words, they don't mean anything when you run a business.

Re:30 hours per week?

[HornWumpus]

Your problem is you don't know what you are worth. I expect you're living in a small town and the employer thinks you have few options. However, they also have few options.

All you need is to reduce your desperation level and all the power in that relationship comes to you. Get another contract or two. Make the effort. Offer rates similar to the one your giving now if you have to. Then let them stew, just turn down their change and let entropy take over. They will be back, on their knees. You should be charging them $50/hour or more.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

As I said, there are different people. There's a handful who actually did work for their money, and who tend to get used to working long hours. These certainly exist, but they're few and in between.

Our culture celebrates those that came to money all on their own, and generally keeps quiet about the sad fact that they are a small minority. Most people classified as rich either inherit or marry into money. As a result, their motivation to work is typically of the level of "minimal needed to keep the money coming and keep relatives satisfied". Hence you get the "country club" types of wealthy people who "work" at those clubs. Which is often actual work, as they are arranging deals in their own way.

However the actual process is typically similar to that of exchanging drinks in a bar for poorer folk.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stiletto]

It's not causal. Working long hours does not cause you to be highly paid or wealthy. If that were true, all a vegetable picker would have to do is work 120 hours a week and retire in comfort. A CEO does not make 800X what his average staff makes because he works 800 times as long.

Sadly, on average, the most accurate predictor of someone's income is their father's income.

Re:30 hours per week?

[ModernGeek]

You should quit buying into the propaganda put into place by popular media that every place in the world that isn't the United States is some sort of shit hole that is full of disease and famine. You'll find that the rest of the world is quite nice.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people classified as rich either inherit or marry into money.

That's just false. Nice try though. Keep up the class warfare!

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

It does if you count high school and college and grad school. Tell me, how hard do you think those vegetable pickers were working when they were 16? Were they staying late after school to learn Calculus, or were they cutting class to get high with their homies? Working hard and being smart actually matter. Anyone who says otherwise has never tried either working hard or being smart.

They were probably too busy picking vegetables at 16. They probably study when they can. College? Grad School? With fruit pickin' parents? You really are disconnected from the real world down here aren't you.

Funny, most business owners/CEO's I've met are decent with basic algebra but weak when it comes to calculus, trig, etc.

A.) They know people. (usually part of a boys club at an expensive university)
B.) Have rich fathers
C.) Work hard.

Pick any two of the above and it will fit most CEO's... they also have to be willing to make hard choices at the expense of others to further their agenda.... or perform some CYA.

No, it's because what he knows is 800x as valuable. Not all work is equal. That's one of the many flaws in Marx's philosophy.

So Carly Fiorina's contributions were worth more than a seasoned electronics engineer with 25 years of experience? I think not.

A CEO is a corporate face undeserving of being put on a pedestal unless they built the company they are running with their bare hands in the beginning.

Sadly, on average, the most accurate predictor of someone's income is their father's income.

That's because income is dependent on intelligence and hard work. Intelligence is highly heritable and appreciation for hard work is handed down in successful families.

Spoken like a true wannabe aristocrat. The possibility of being intelligent may be inherited, but actual intelligence isn't. Most trust fund babies I've ever met have been pretty useless except for office political gain. Breeding has nothing to do with being fit for the job.

The hard work that's handed down is soaked in the blood of the people who actually worked for it that were desperate enough to allow themselves to be exploited.

Re:30 hours per week?

[jrumney]

It's quite awesome and I tend to catch less exotic diseases here than in Malaysia.

From the UK recent travel health advisories:

Malaysia

1 November 2012 Sarcocystosis in travellers to Malaysia

USA

16 January 2013 Seasonal influenza – advice for travellers 23 November 2012 West Nile virus: advice for travellers to USA, Europe and neighbouring countries - update 5 October 2012 West Nile virus: advice for travellers to USA, Europe and neighbouring countries

Re:30 hours per week?

[i.r.id10t]

Sure I have credit card debt, but the house is half paid for, I have a low(er) paying but pretty much guaranteed job working in education, a pretty much guaranteed retirement package. But not a lot in savings.

On the other hand, I have a wife of 20 years who I presume still loves me, 3 wonderful kids, and a relatively stress free life. I get to do what I want every few weeks (spend a day shooting, fishing, etc), and in general I come home from work pretty happy.

I'm rich.

But I sure ain't wealthy.

Re:30 hours per week?

[ColdSam]

Ok let's test you theory:

Nicely done. Your rigorous analysis sure proved him wrong.

It takes skill, hard work, ruthless ambition and extreme good luck to get rich and stay there.

Is it okay if we use your method on your own theory?
Paris Hilton - nope
George Bush - nope

Re:30 hours per week?

[SpaceMonkies]

If you can make $15/hr remotely, I'd suggest Montenegro. Find a place near the sea, you got it made. You might have to work at getting a really great broadband deal, but there are some to be had. If you're single, the women there are beautiful and have sexy accents, you've got the sea and off-season the tourists go away and you can really enjoy the good life. You're a short hop from shopping in Italy, skiing in the Alps and you're still not in the EU (yet). Learn to play tuba in a Balkan horn band. Drink lots of coffee and slivovitza. Go out in your backyard and pick fresh figs for breakfast. Even if swimming in crystal-blue seas is not your idea of fun, you can set yourself down in a sidewalk cafe and watch one Mila Jovovic after another walk by. And there's none of the snobbiness of Western Europe.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

You're happy. Different things. Notably rich people tend to be quite unhappy throughout history, due to having extra worry of "who's out to get me for my wealth" which is constant.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

Just out of interest, did you just google first link that looked like it would support your hypothesis and copy paste it, or are you actively trolling?

Because one look at the paper itself tells you very clearly that it's not at all what you pretend it is. It's an analysis on household inheritance of baby boomers within USA.

Large inheritance:

1. Is very much avoided being given to people in USA and in fact in almost all Western countries - it's usually trust funds and companies. Reason for this is taxation. Therefore it's not even featured in the analysis of the paper provided.
2. Such inheritance is usually washed through tax havens and such when it has be to transferred to avoid massive taxation that would be involved.

In conclusion, you don't even know what you're linking or you are intentionally derailing the subject with a lie. But you're cool enough to accuse me of "class warfare" regardless. Ouch.

Re:30 hours per week?

[osu-neko]

Is there some reason you copy-pasted PopeRatzo's post? Trying to farm karma or something?

Re:30 hours per week?

[Gr8Apes]

Bill Gates was rich in college, and became richer out of school, because he never had to work. He was never really smart. Everything that didn't involve cunning he was a failure at. Even his philanthropy reeks of self-inrichment of a cunning sort, more than anything else. He believes in giving a man a fish. Then charging him 10x for that fish the next time around. Check his history.

Re:30 hours per week?

[fluffy99]

Sure I have credit card debt, but the house is half paid for

Get rid of the higher interest debt first - that would be the credit card. Also note that the mortgage interest is probably at a much lower effective APR and is tax deductible, whereas that cc interest is not. Too many people focus on paying off the house while they should be paying off the cars, credit cards and other more expensive debts first.

Re:30 hours per week?

[countach74]

wealthy people are wealthy largely because their family is wealthy, not due to hard work (which anyone can do).

Citation needed. Isn't it quite possible that many wealthy people are wealthy largely because their parents taught them how to make and handle money? Yes, there are other advantages to coming from a well off family, but you can make $1m/year and still be broke if you're bad with money.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Myopic]

Poor people rationalize their lives by believing that myth.

Re:30 hours per week?

[captainpanic]

Sssssssshhhht!!! Don't tell the Americans! :)

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

The premise of the book seems to be that the ordinary working stiff can have a net worth (including his house) of a million bucks, by the time he retires. If he works hard, operates in a miserly fashion, and invests wisely.

First of all, it shows selection bias by not considering those that thought they were investing wisely, but happened upon a banking crisis for example. The book having been written in a bull market.

Secondly, the premise itself shows that, due to inflation, one million bucks isn't "rich" any more. Truly rich people are well out of the reach of aspirations of employees. Their wealth has been accumulated over generations.

A "millionaire" was being used in the 1920s as a word for a rich person. There's been an awful lot of inflation since then.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

Money doesn't appear to bring addional happiness once a level of sufficiency is reached. That level is where the bank account stays in the black without you having to worry about it. Becoming rich enough that you don't have to work anymore, for example, won't make you happier.

But poverty can certainly make you unhappy.

Re:30 hours per week?

[gordo3000]

do you have any sources that say the majority of wealth in this country was inherited? A skimming the forbes richest list show quite a few people who didn't get there via just cashing an inheritance and others who did (walton's family, as the obvious top examples).

I've generally found in 3rd world countries the amount that inheritance matters and who you know matters far more than in the US. In fact, I think the US is the most democratic on this (I've traveled quite a bit and lived abroad, but I've never done hard research, so I'm not saying this is research). But that is relative across countries, to speak towards working towards your wealth and inheriting in an absolute manner is a hard research question. here is what I mean:

Most upper income people I know got there by hard work, but that is not saying parents didn't help them a lot and that those advantages can be passed down. I know doctors and lawyers (as two high income profession classes), all worked hard to get there, some had lots of family money getting them through, others didn't. What I have found is that having family money helps make up for lower qualifications, making upper income a sticky level to be at (though this doesn't speak to super rich families where children never need to work). A great example is poor performance in college. Upper income people can afford to have their children stay in college longer, pay more for tuition, or send them abroad for medical school to get them to being a doctor. Lower income people just have to fight it out onshore.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stubbyfingers]

OK, You're going to give long winded arguments that if we let the Pure Capitalists have their way--their basic honesty and fairness will have their employees fat and happy.

I'm done trying to shoot down your Ayn Rand Epistomology--Ms. Rand said bluntly that employees are not worht the wages you have to pay them in one of her essays. (yes, I've read many of them)

All I can say is BULLSHIT!

Employers would cut wages until the Gov't HAD to step in and feed the masses to keep them from rioting--and then say their taxes to pay the army to keep the bad elements from knocking down their walls were too high.
Society IS NOT about YOU making a profit. You CAN make a profit, but you CAN'T do injury to others to do it (broad definition of INJURY here--you can't beat them, cheat them out of the agreed wages, pay them less than the legal minimum--and that's employees) For NON employees, you can't steal from them, deprive them of THEIR livelihood or make it impossible to live in your shadow [ie, you can't cut a guy off from competeing with you by burning the bridge to his place of business--you can't INTENTIONALLY pollute downstream of your business so that other's can't drink the water or breathe the air])

What article

[serialband]

I don't see a link for an article.

Re:What article

[swanzilla]

Knock yourself out.

Re:What article

[ph1ll]

... and I can't find a country called Malysia (please note, editors: it's Malaysia).

I know Malaysia well (even though I live in the UK). I first went there in '97 and married a Malaysian-born woman. Some observations:

• They really like and respect white people.
• They don't particularly like Chinese people (my wife is half Chinese so I see rampant discrimination against this large minority - about 25% of Malaysia's population - all the time).
• The weather is great (although sometimes a little too humid).
• Kuala Lumpur is a very advanced city that can compare to anything in the West.
• Broadband speeds are so-so according to my cousin-in-law.
• There appears to be a demand for good engineers (according to another cousin-in-law, a Chinese who studied IT in England). So, assuming you can get a visa, getting some interesting work shouldn't be too hard.
• The political situation there is... interesting. But I get the impression that if you don't cause trouble you will be left alone - especially if you are white.

HTH

Re:What article

[tlhIngan]

I know Malaysia well (even though I live in the UK). I first went there in '97 and married a Malaysian-born woman. Some observations:
  They really like and respect white people.
They don't particularly like Chinese people (my wife is half Chinese so I see rampant discrimination against this large minority - about 25% of Malaysia's population - all the time).
The weather is great (although sometimes a little too humid).
Kuala Lumpur is a very advanced city that can compare to anything in the West.
Broadband speeds are so-so according to my cousin-in-law.
There appears to be a demand for good engineers (according to another cousin-in-law, a Chinese who studied IT in England). So, assuming you can get a visa, getting some interesting work shouldn't be too hard.
The political situation there is... interesting. But I get the impression that if you don't cause trouble you will be left alone - especially if you are white.

HTH

The reason is that after the war or so, the first people to start running businesses and such were Chinese (most likely chased out from Singapore by the Japanese), and they got very rich doing so.

The government exploits the fact that a lot of Malaysians are jealous of the Chinese for being successful (which happens because they worked hard at building businesses and such) , so they put up huge campaigns of national identity and such to encourage hatred of the Chinese. However, they government doesn't really do anything about it (they can't - said Chinese businesses pay a good amount of tax and employ a lot of Malays). So basically the Chinese are demonized for being successful and "exploiting" Malays

If you're white, you're usually a tourist or an investor, so you're treated well to get at your $$$. If you're a Chinese investor with $$$, everyone eyes you like you're going to enslave them.

The government feeds off this sentiment and basically just fans the flames. There's no real democracy (there is voting, but the opposition is usually highly discredited, or even arrested if they have a chance of winning - being a Muslim state, there are plenty of "crimes" that one can accuse the Opposition of).

Re:What article

[Kagato]

That closes the loop on what I noticed about the Chinese in Singapore hating the Japanese. I actually witnessed a shop keeper play dumb with a Japanese trying to buy something using Engrish. Old Japanese guy stormed out in frustration. I go to buy something, no problem, he explained the other guy was Japanese.

I don't know if I would choose Malaysia or Singapore though. Both are kind of strict countries if you run afoul of the local powers that be. Fun to visit, not so much on the living there. I'd hit up Belize. Nice locals, cheap and only 1 hour plane ride to Miami if the shit goes down.

Um, what article?

[rk]

No link in the summary, no link after the fold. Really?

Re:Um, what article?

[CriminalNerd]

It's not like anybody clicks the link anyway.

Re:Um, what article?

[rk]

I must be new here.

Re:Um, what article?

[sidevans]

Probably by being older than you

Missing link.

[Bongoots]

Has /. evolved to a point where there is no A to RTF?

Re:Missing link.

[Bongoots]

I found the missing link!

http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/unchartered-waters/interview-with-a-digital-migrant-meet-john-hunter/

Re:Missing link.

[Anonymous Coward]

Has /. evolved to a point where there is no A to RTF?

An A has vanished from "Malysia" too. Open season, I guess.

Re:Lovely article

[HornWumpus]

You need an excuse not to RTFA?

Ubatuba, SP Brasil

[Anonymous Coward]

Graduated with my Masters in EE/CS at 23. Got a job that allowed for remote working. Saved up the required $50K to apply for a permanent resident visa as a foreign investor. Opened a shop and hired some local Brasilians to do contract programming work for US firms. Learned Portuguese and became a Brasilian citizen. Quit my job and renounced my US citizenship once I was making enough on my Brasil business. Ignored letter from IRS demanding "exit" tax.

Now do contract work for US firm at US labor rates via sales office in the US, and the money comes to Brasil where it goes farther, and I live on a beach in a Pousada. I don't even speak English well anymore. I'm not even 40 and I could quit work today but the money is too good.

Re:Ubatuba, SP Brasil

[Ryanrule]

You belong in jail.

Re:How did it?

[Dan East]

How did it get to the front page without the link?

I don't know what website you think you're on, but this is Slashdot.

WORK AT HOME MOTHER EARNS $668686634635/WEEK

[BumpyCarrot]

Link removed.

Top form, timothy.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[Spy Handler]

he's just taking initiative and sticking it to the man.

The man says, "I can scour the globe for the cheapest labor, while selling my product for full price to the peons who are captive because they cannot scour the globe for the cheapest housing/medical care"

Dude says, "Oh yeah? Watch me, I'm moving to where housing/medical care is cheap. F_ You."

I don't see a problem here.

you could do that in the U.S. too

[Trepidity]

If your goal is just to live cheaply, and you don't have kids, there are plenty of places in the U.S. where you can live ok on $16k/yr. I did it as a grad student. Not in the SF Bay Area, though.

Re:I know folks working in Malaysia...

[Anonymous Coward]

This. I've spent the last 10 years working in South East asia (Malaysia now, but Singapore before that for 3 years). As a white guy with any level of technical smarts you're easily earning 100+, 180 for managers. My coworkers are pleasant, cost of living is very low meaning I've been able to save quite a lot up. I don't see myself moving home so much as I do retiring.

Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

I have been doing this for about three years now in the United States. Basically, bought property ($6000), built small dome to live in ($3000), went half time at work (4 hours a day doing low stress programming). I make about $17,000 a year and live pretty comfortably on that. The key is having no debts, eliminating as many recurring payments as possible (I pay about $300/mo for all utilities and phone), drive as little as possible and don't eat out much.

I even wrote a blog about it. http://www.minimalintentions.com/search/label/Geodesic%20Dome

My plan was that when I had all this free time I could work on my own projects (of which I have many). Unfortunately turns out that I am pretty lazy so instead I sit in a hammock and read books more... ah well... I still plan to get motivated at some point... eventually.

(repost since I was logged out the first time)

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[matrim99]

The key is having no debts...

Actually, the key is having no medical problems.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

I know... I am saving a little... but I doubt any amount would be "enough" at the rate things seem to be going. I have basic medical insurance but when the time comes I am sure I will be screwed like everybody else. Probably good that I don't have a family. My main concern is the quality of fertilizer I will make wherever I end up.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[Sepultura]

The secret is no ongoing medical issues. If he's like most Americans and he had a serious medical emergency come up he'd probably end up bankrupt anyway. This way he just has less to lose.

Re:Once you are in can you get out?

[Mathieu Lu]

If you're doing R&D on a project that you later want to commercialize, and you don't need to physically meet clients (or you have someone else who can represent you).. and no kids/family to take care of, you may as well lower your cost of living as much as possible.

The problem is when your business model assumes you'll be in Malaysia forever, then you're stuck.

I lived in Eastern Europe (BG) for 2 years. I would bill as a canadian company, get paid in Canada, then transfer money back. The cost of living wasn't very different though (circa 2002), when you even things out. Living in "poorer" countries looks appealing at first, but when you look further than the cost of food and beer, the costs of housing, health system, education system, social inequalities / security, etc. you usually don't want to stay there too long.

China

[longk]

I've been doing this in China for the last 7 years. The good thing here is that live is very scalable. If income is low you relocate to the countryside where you get by quite decently on $100/month and 4M Internet. If income rises you move towards bigger cities where you can spend over $10.000/month and have FTTH if you must.

And by scalability I don't just mean the living expenses. Also moving from place to place is dead easy. I arrive in a place and spend a day if not just a few hours on finding and renting a flat. I'll move in that same night or the next day and have my stuff arrive by truck a few days later.

If you're a remotely political person or care mildly about human rights, China may not be for you. For the average person however who just wants to work the least amount possible and yet have her/his dinner cooked, house cleaned and pussy licked/dick sucked as if she/he were queen/king, it's an awesome place.

Or you can stay in the U.S.

[tgeller]

Just get the hell out of high-cost areas like Silicon Valley.

I moved from San Francisco to small-town Ohio four years ago. I'm a freelance writer and have never met most of my clients face-to-face, so my income didn't change at all.

But now I'm out of debt and living in a huge house I bought for $50,000 and enjoy very much. The money that used to go into such things as $6 drinks and $130 residential parking stickers now goes into travel, entertainment, and investment.

I can't walk to eight sushi restaurants anymore. But I've found my lifestyle's improved quite a bit without having to leave my home country. And if I want to be around that many sushi restaurants, I can fly back to San Francisco whenever I want.

Unless you really want to, why leave the country? The U.S. can be very cheap -- you just have to get away from the coasts.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[Darinbob]

Some people do it. It's risky though. Ie, we had a programmer who lived in rural Montana with a silicon valley salary. Ie, living the good life except for the monthly trips to the office. However if you get laid off then you're stuck trying to find someone else who will let you do that. The reason people are in silicon valley is because it's safe. If you lose a job there are plenty of companies nearby who may be interested in your skills (although too many jobs are not web stuff now). If you never buy a house maybe it's not so bad to have to relocate every few years. Also I think a lot of companies aren't going to pay your way for a flight+hotel for an interview anymore.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[tkrotchko]

"and sticking it to the man"

At $10/hour, I don't think they mind. They say "please stick it to me some more!"

Argentina

[lexluther]

About 7 years ago, I moved from California to Argentina for work. I had a degree in CS and had worked professionally as a Java dev for three years. I couldn't get any work in the US so I decided to brush up on my spanish and see if I could find a job down there.

After arriving in Argentina, I translated my resume and started looking for work by finding the equivalent of Monster.com (bumeran.com). It took about 3 weeks, but I got interviews at both Sony and IBM. IBM wanted to send me to Canada for consulting because I spoke english :). Since that wasn't the goal, I went with Sony. Lots of the labor in these places is not actually employed by the large corporation, but by a "placement" service. This company paid me $600/month for full-time employment. I had been making around 70k in the US, but in argentina the 10x paycut was manageable. Indeed, I was making 1/2 of some of my coworkers - because I wasn't legally employed, the placement company paid me less, but paid me in cash.

The experience was fantastic. There, 9-5 actually meant 9-5 - very limited flexibility in terms of hours and what I could work on, but it was okay, I was doing it more for the concept. The engineers were all excellent and my American education didn't either disadvantage or help -- we all were pretty up on the lastest java techniques.

After about 4 months, I decided that this glimpse into the future was sufficient so I returned to the US to do a PhD.

Balkans

[PopeRatzo]

If you can make $15/hr remotely, I'd suggest Montenegro. Find a place near the sea, you got it made. You might have to work at getting a really great broadband deal, but there are some to be had.

If you're single, the women there are beautiful and have sexy accents, you've got the sea and off-season the tourists go away and you can really enjoy the good life.

You're a short hop from shopping in Italy, skiing in the Alps and you're still not in the EU (yet). Learn to play tuba in a Balkan horn band. Drink lots of coffee and slivovitza. Go out in your backyard and pick fresh figs for breakfast.

Even if swimming in crystal-blue seas is not your idea of fun, you can set yourself down in a sidewalk cafe and watch one Mila Jovovic after another walk by. And there's none of the snobbiness of Western Europe.

Re:Balkans

[PopeRatzo]

I find there's something about starting a new life in some cheap country which is kind of self-abasing.

Don't know what you mean by "cheap" but Montenegro had a sophisticated civilization when the folks in North America were still running around in loincloths chasing buffalo.

You can visit churches from the 13th century and ruins from the Ottoman Empire and before (way before).

And the sexy girls in Montenegro speak very good English.

Expats in China even have a phrase for it: "loser back home".

Tell you what, an American computer geek who's living in a beautiful house on the seaside working 20 hours a week remotely would not be considered a "loser back home" by his friends back in the 'States who have to share a 500 sq ft studio apartment with some other geek making $15/hr, working 60 hours a week just to get by. That expat wouldn't be considered a "loser" at all. He'd be considered a hero.

But make no mistake, it takes a little courage to get up and move. It's not for everyone. Some people just don't have what it takes to strike out on their own that way.

In either case they failed in the game they were born into

If you believe you have to stay in the "game you were born into" in order to succeed, that means you've already lost the game.

Forgot to mention...

[brillow]

Malaysia sucks. Seriously, detention without trial? Death penalty for drugs? State religion? High risk of infectious disease? Monarchy? Sex-trafficking?

NO. THANKS.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

Then swim over to the Philippines. No death penalty, no monarchy, but more drugs and sex with risk of infectious diseases. Mostly christian like the USA. Real fun place if you don't mind the random kidnapping and shooting, which may or may not make you feel more at home. Gun laws stricter than the US but lots of loose firearms.

Costa Rica & Panama

[Tenebrousedge]

$6k a year is doable. $16k a year would be quite pleasant. I would avoid the capital or other large cities. Actually getting a work permit or visa to either country is difficult to impossible, but I know people in both countries who have been there for decades on a tourist visa. Do note, this tends to limit your options for local employment; it's far better to work online.

There's essentially no native culture (or cuisine) in either place, "post-colonial" about sums it up. The police are nice enough but underpaid, the laws are enforced relatively arbitrarily and generally not in favor of extranjeros. If you're running a business, [a] congratulations for getting through the bureaucracy to accomplish this, and [b] you may from time to time expect to have laws about licenses and restrictions enforced against you that your (Tico) competition does not. I'm not sure whether I can really say that corruption was common, but it's probably fair to say that people were understanding about dealing with the laws and regulations -- or avoiding that, if necessary. I don't really consider this a bad thing, but if you have the expectation that the rule of law is going to be universally or rigidly applied, you may be disappointed.

The weather is beautiful, it's not terribly expensive to get to and from either country (at least, from the US), English is spoken by a good percentage of the population, utilities are cheap and reliable, health care is extremely affordable (medical tourism is common), internet is not that fast but widely available, and of course, knowledgeable tech workers are in high demand. In Costa Rica the beer is not good and relatively expensive, in Panama you can get two beers for $1. Computers are available, but expensive. It's probably going to be a good idea to buy in the US and work out a way to get it. I've heard both good and bad things about the mail system; I'd call it generally reliable, but the paranoid might want to find other means of receiving packages. If you end up going back and forth to the states a lot, you can make good money on the side bringing electronics back with you.

Panama is by far the cheaper of the two countries, you would probably be able to get by on less than $6k annually. I didn't like it quite as much because, at least in the places I frequented, cocaine was both common and extremely cheap there. That's fine for those who like that sort of thing, but generally I don't think it does much good for the community. Drug laws in both countries are sparingly enforced.

Roads are generally better in Panama; the country has a lot more money due to that whole canal thing. I can't recommend driving in Panama City, or anywhere in Costa Rica. Cars are absurdly expensive, and paradoxically people don't care about the lines on the road, the blinky things above them, the relative speed and velocity of other vehicles, or pedestrians.

Fun Facts: there are no addresses in Costa Rica. There are no roads connecting Central America with South America.

Re:Lese Mageste

[ladislavb]

Any country that welcomes you to its shores by photographing you and taking your finger prints, then forces you to either go through a "naked" scanner or lets big guys touch your genitals, is absolutely off the list of any freedom loving individual.

Re:Me want

[qirtaiba]

You just take a day-trip down to Singapore, then re-enter Malaysia with a new stamp.

Re:I know folks working in Malaysia...

[JaredOfEuropa]

That's the smart thing to do, and something often overlooked. Saving up, I mean. You can live a decent life doing IT work in the Asia / Middle East, or running a Scuba shop in some tourist trap or whatever... But does it allow you to put away enough for retirement? Especially if you want to return home sometime? (And many expats will want to, sooner or later)

Even the big earners fall into the expat trap, finding themselves more or less stuck in a foreign place, when they find out their savings will only get them a crappy semi detached place back home instead of the luxury downtown apartment with indoor pool and a household staff of 3 they have now. If you fancy some adventure and perhaps a taste of the high life, by all means go for it. But if you stay abroad for an extended period of time, start thinking about settling down there permanently.

You don't have to go that far.

[pubwvj]

You don't have to go that far. Just move to a third-world state like Vermont where the cost of living is a tiny fraction of what it is in the cities. No, I'm not talking about the ritzy places like Burlington, Norwich, Montpelier and Woodstock. I'm talking the real Vermont, the other 99.9%.

Wait, forget I ever said that. I don't want everyone moving here! :)

Western Panama (Chiriqui)

[aapold]

Western Panama has the upland climate of Costa Rica with the better roads.. David is the provincial capital but the cooler highland cilmates of Boquete, Volcan, Cerro Punta, Bambito, etc are much nicer if the humidity bothers you. You end up with highs in the 70s, lows in the 50s pretty much year-round. Even up there you aren't that far from the beach. The main problem is that it has been pretty much discovered by expats so the prices have gone up considerably.

Among the big advantages in Panama for US - the country basically uses US dollars for its currency, no exchanging needed. They do mint their own coins in the same sizes and denominations (they will even work in the same vending machines), you almost forget to swap out your coins when you get back. The bills are US bills. This dates back to the canal construction.

However, the vast majority of the business and work to be done there is in the capital, which is at sea level and much hotter and more humid. You also have access to better medical care there than in the "interior" (which is what they call anywhere that isn't in the middle of the country since odds are that is where you arrive). Most of the work in the highland regions is agricultural or tourism-based.

as far as your note about no roads, the Darien Gap (Panama's eastern province and the adjacent area of Columbia) you do not want to go there. That gap is the largest tract of jungle they have left, and anywhere a road is built the jungle disappears within a certain distance as people move in to those lands. The areas that remain (out past Yaviza or so) are dangerous, FARC sometimes operates there, and people have been kidnapped attempting to traverse it.

Related article

[rover42]

This article is on retiring abroad, but it contains some material relevant to the remote-work-overseas scheme: http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Retiring_abroad

Re:Lese Mageste

[horza]

So that is the US, Britain and France...

You could also mention that when you go into the naked scanner you need to put your hands on your head in the submission pose of somebody surrendering. Way more humiliating than having some guy touch your genitals in one respect. We win two world wars, then you see a stream of British people being marched like cattle with hands on their heads :-(.

Actually in all 3 countries all the customs officials were quite polite about doing the manual search, and I didn't feel at all they were penalising me for insisting. I only went through major hubs, though, where you might get a little bit more respect.

Phillip.

Thailand

[AndyCanfield]

I've been in Thailand (& Laos) for twenty years. Now most of my work is done through the Internet, even for local companies. Living costs are low. A Company puts money into my bank, the ATM card takes it out. Work at home means long hours with lots of breaks. Rural Thailand is wonderful. I jumped ship from California in 1990 and have never regretted it. But I live a Thai lifestyle, not an American lifestyle. More information at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72291163/index.html . Cold water baths, no air conditioning, travel by bicycle or motorcycle or bus. No (English) computer books to speak of; all technical information through the Internet. I still read the news, but don't much care what that idiot government in Washington does. Eighteen years ago I decided I'd rather die in Thailand than live in the United States. I have had seven children; my children have had five mothers. Every time I say this some lady in the crowd raises her hand and shouts "NUMBER SIX! NUMBER SIX". Two kids are in America; the other five were all born in The Land Of Smiles. Sometimes I have a little bit of money, so I can eat. Sometimes I have a lot of money; some Thai lady comes along, and goes away, and I have a little bit of money left, so I can eat. No problem, no worry, no stress.

Consider Taiwan

[GoCats1999]

After living in Silicon Valley for almost 10 years, we moved to Taiwan for 4 months (just got back), while I continued working as an independent contractor for US-based companies doing custom web and iOS software development.

In a word, it was *awesome*.

You could definitely make a very decent living in Taiwan, especially outside of Taipei (Taipei could still work pretty well, but rent prices are significantly higher than the rest of the country.)

Living expenses are incredibly cheap, especially for a first-world country. Bonus, If you can qualify for an ARC (Alien Resident Card), then their nationalized health care is really cheap.

We had a beautiful (albeit on the small side) 2 BR/1 BA apartment in the heart of Kaohsiung (Taiwan's second largest city) for $400/month. Utilities at around $75/month. Wife and I both had unlimited 3G on our iPhones for $30 per month each — oh, and that *includes* UNLIMITED tethering (something you'll never get with AT&T or Verizon).

Food in Taiwan is incredible... both in taste, as well in cost. We never cooked, always eating out every breakfast, lunch and dinner to the tune of about $15 per day total.

Taxis can take you pretty much anywhere for about $2-$4 per trip... or you can take the subway for about $1 per ride.

All told, we were spending about $1500 per month.

However, despite its benefits, there are definitely some downsides. Taiwan (like most of East Asia) has notoriously poor air quality. Lack of emission control standards on vehicles make it very difficult to walk (let alone jog or work out) outside without feeling a bit nauseous. When walking around outside, you will see people wearing masks *everywhere*.

Also, unlike other countries in East Asia with a stronger western influence, it is very difficult to get around Taiwan without being able to speak Chinese. While there are some people who do speak very basic conversational English, it's a bit more on the rare side, so trying to get around or order at restaurants can be challenging. It tends to be a bit easier in Taipei, but then, you'll end up paying more in living expenses.

But if you are able to get through some of those challenges, it can be an incredibly rewarding experience. We are already trying to figure out how and when we can get out there again!