How a Programmer Gets By On $16K/Yr: He Moves to Malaysia

An anonymous reader writes "If you can make $10 and hour doing remote work, you can afford to live in Malysia. Make it $15 or $20, you can work 30 hours a week. Real money? Make it ten. This article talks about how John Hunter did it." Malaysia's not the only destination for self-motivated ex-pat programmers, of course. If you've considered doing this kind of sabbatical, or actually have, please explain in the comments the from-where-to-where details and reasons.

Comments

30 hours per week?

[Gordonjcp]

Who the hell works more than 30 hours per week anyway?

Re:30 hours per week?

[jhoegl]

Menials and the uneducated.
*Rich guy laugh*

Re:30 hours per week?

[serialband]

People who do physical labor will work that much. Some people with 2 jobs work more.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or people who work for Electronic Arts.

Re:30 hours per week?

[binarylarry]

Entrepreneurs!

Re:30 hours per week?

[Gordonjcp]

My job is split about 50/50 between sitting in front of a computer designing complicated radio systems, and the manual labour involved in hauling all the kit up to the roofs of very tall buildings and putting it together. It's still only about 30 hours a week.

Re:30 hours per week?

[isorox]

Who the hell works more than 30 hours per week anyway?

Depends. Does "work time" include "slashdot time"?

Re:30 hours per week?

[serialband]

You're not doing the kind of manual labor I was refering to. The type of jobs I refer to regularly top 35 hours a week for a measly hourly wage. Some of these people work 2nd jobs to make ends meet.

If you work at a computer, you're working a desk job, which in your case is half the time, which means you have access to a way to look busy without doing much work. (slashdot.)

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it was a joke, but generally I would find the opposite is true. highly educated and rich tend to actually work far beyond normal working hours. If I worked only 30 hours a week it means I was very sick or took a few days holiday. I would expect the average working week for most people I work with (all highly paid and highly educated) would be a minimum of 50+ hours. most probably higher.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

ha- are we taking smart or educated? My experience is they are not one in the same. Smart people can't be educated. They can learn. Stupid people can be educated.

Re:30 hours per week?

[CanHasDIY]

When I had a job in industrial manufacturing before attending college, I would regularly work up to 100 hours a week.

Of course, I was a teenager fresh out of high school, enjoying the 18/hr straight time + time-and-a-half for overtime + double time for holidays.

Damn, but those were some bitchin' summers!

Re:30 hours per week?

[CanHasDIY]

These days... Well, I'm here for 40 hours, what more do you fuckers want from me? Actual productivity?

Meh, I'll leave that for the newbs who still have some ambition left to beat out of them.

Re:30 hours per week?

[slashmydots]

For the record, I'm head IT manager at a small-ish company (100 ppl, 6 servers, 40 desktops) for 25 hours a week for 19k/yr with no benefits in the US and the rest of the day I operate my own retail and computer repair store. It's quite awesome and I tend to catch less exotic diseases here than in Malaysia.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

That's those who hope to make it rich. Those who actually are rich AND smart delegate and "work" by browsing the internet or go golfing to "foster customer relations". Which can sometimes be hard work, but most of the time amounts to similar effort as average man's leisure. Of course, they often get the extra stress of "I have a lot, how do I not lose it" so their position is not necessarily an enviable one.

Can't blame them for it either, that's what I would do in their position.

Re:30 hours per week?

[udachny]

Entrepreneurs never stop working, off hours, weekends, holidays, those are just words, they don't mean anything when you run a business.

Re:30 hours per week?

[HornWumpus]

Your problem is you don't know what you are worth. I expect you're living in a small town and the employer thinks you have few options. However, they also have few options.

All you need is to reduce your desperation level and all the power in that relationship comes to you. Get another contract or two. Make the effort. Offer rates similar to the one your giving now if you have to. Then let them stew, just turn down their change and let entropy take over. They will be back, on their knees. You should be charging them $50/hour or more.

Re:30 hours per week?

[serialband]

I know that a lot of janitors/custodial service as well as bus drivers that do that. Some people in retail and "health care"/assisted living places work that much too. White collar workers mostly have it "easier" because their jobs pay far more. 50 hours is a bit low, since many of them work weekends too.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

As I said, there are different people. There's a handful who actually did work for their money, and who tend to get used to working long hours. These certainly exist, but they're few and in between.

Our culture celebrates those that came to money all on their own, and generally keeps quiet about the sad fact that they are a small minority. Most people classified as rich either inherit or marry into money. As a result, their motivation to work is typically of the level of "minimal needed to keep the money coming and keep relatives satisfied". Hence you get the "country club" types of wealthy people who "work" at those clubs. Which is often actual work, as they are arranging deals in their own way.

However the actual process is typically similar to that of exchanging drinks in a bar for poorer folk.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stiletto]

It's not causal. Working long hours does not cause you to be highly paid or wealthy. If that were true, all a vegetable picker would have to do is work 120 hours a week and retire in comfort. A CEO does not make 800X what his average staff makes because he works 800 times as long.

Sadly, on average, the most accurate predictor of someone's income is their father's income.

Re:30 hours per week?

[AaronLS]

"Smart people can't be educated. They can learn."

The only way this makes sense is if you're using some twisted cynical definition of smart, educate, and learn.

Re:30 hours per week?

[ModernGeek]

You should quit buying into the propaganda put into place by popular media that every place in the world that isn't the United States is some sort of shit hole that is full of disease and famine. You'll find that the rest of the world is quite nice.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people classified as rich either inherit or marry into money.

That's just false. Nice try though. Keep up the class warfare!

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not causal. Working long hours does not cause you to be highly paid or wealthy. If that were true, all a vegetable picker would have to do is work 120 hours a week and retire in comfort.

It does if you count high school and college and grad school. Tell me, how hard do you think those vegetable pickers were working when they were 16? Were they staying late after school to learn Calculus, or were they cutting class to get high with their homies? Working hard and being smart actually matter. Anyone who says otherwise has never tried either working hard or being smart.

A CEO does not make 800X what his average staff makes because he works 800 times as long.

No, it's because what he knows is 800x as valuable. Not all work is equal. That's one of the many flaws in Marx's philosophy.

Sadly, on average, the most accurate predictor of someone's income is their father's income.

That's because income is dependent on intelligence and hard work. Intelligence is highly heritable and appreciation for hard work is handed down in successful families.

Re:30 hours per week?

[dingen]

I love how you just casually move from talking about the highly educated and rich to talking about yourself.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

It does if you count high school and college and grad school. Tell me, how hard do you think those vegetable pickers were working when they were 16? Were they staying late after school to learn Calculus, or were they cutting class to get high with their homies? Working hard and being smart actually matter. Anyone who says otherwise has never tried either working hard or being smart.

They were probably too busy picking vegetables at 16. They probably study when they can. College? Grad School? With fruit pickin' parents? You really are disconnected from the real world down here aren't you.

Funny, most business owners/CEO's I've met are decent with basic algebra but weak when it comes to calculus, trig, etc.

A.) They know people. (usually part of a boys club at an expensive university)
B.) Have rich fathers
C.) Work hard.

Pick any two of the above and it will fit most CEO's... they also have to be willing to make hard choices at the expense of others to further their agenda.... or perform some CYA.

No, it's because what he knows is 800x as valuable. Not all work is equal. That's one of the many flaws in Marx's philosophy.

So Carly Fiorina's contributions were worth more than a seasoned electronics engineer with 25 years of experience? I think not.

A CEO is a corporate face undeserving of being put on a pedestal unless they built the company they are running with their bare hands in the beginning.

Sadly, on average, the most accurate predictor of someone's income is their father's income.

That's because income is dependent on intelligence and hard work. Intelligence is highly heritable and appreciation for hard work is handed down in successful families.

Spoken like a true wannabe aristocrat. The possibility of being intelligent may be inherited, but actual intelligence isn't. Most trust fund babies I've ever met have been pretty useless except for office political gain. Breeding has nothing to do with being fit for the job.

The hard work that's handed down is soaked in the blood of the people who actually worked for it that were desperate enough to allow themselves to be exploited.

Re:30 hours per week?

[hairyfish]

Ok let's test you theory:
Bill Gates - nope
Carlos Slim - nope
Warren Buffet - nope
Larry Ellison - nope
Some of these people might have had upper middle class parents, but there's a looooooooonnnnngggggg way between "wealthy" and 'richest person on earth". I know a few people with similar backgrounds to the men above and not one of them is even close to breaking out of the upper middle class. and there are plenty of stories of 2nd and 3rd gen rich kids blowing their family fortune. It takes skill, hard work, ruthless ambition and extreme good luck to get rich and stay there.

Re:30 hours per week?

[jrumney]

It's quite awesome and I tend to catch less exotic diseases here than in Malaysia.

From the UK recent travel health advisories:

Malaysia

1 November 2012 Sarcocystosis in travellers to Malaysia

USA

16 January 2013 Seasonal influenza – advice for travellers 23 November 2012 West Nile virus: advice for travellers to USA, Europe and neighbouring countries - update 5 October 2012 West Nile virus: advice for travellers to USA, Europe and neighbouring countries

Re:30 hours per week?

[i.r.id10t]

Sure I have credit card debt, but the house is half paid for, I have a low(er) paying but pretty much guaranteed job working in education, a pretty much guaranteed retirement package. But not a lot in savings.

On the other hand, I have a wife of 20 years who I presume still loves me, 3 wonderful kids, and a relatively stress free life. I get to do what I want every few weeks (spend a day shooting, fishing, etc), and in general I come home from work pretty happy.

I'm rich.

But I sure ain't wealthy.

Re:30 hours per week?

[ColdSam]

Ok let's test you theory:

Nicely done. Your rigorous analysis sure proved him wrong.

It takes skill, hard work, ruthless ambition and extreme good luck to get rich and stay there.

Is it okay if we use your method on your own theory?
Paris Hilton - nope
George Bush - nope

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stiletto]

... which is why I said "on average". The existence of a few outliers does not invalidate the fact that an overwhelming number of wealthy people are wealthy largely because their family is wealthy, not due to hard work (which anyone can do).

Re:30 hours per week?

[i.r.id10t]

Sounds to me like he's starting up his own business, and while it may give him a hundred bucks profit now and again, he likes the stability and guaranteed $ - no matter how "little" it is - of his part time job to cover everything else as needed.

Re:30 hours per week?

[SpaceMonkies]

If you can make $15/hr remotely, I'd suggest Montenegro. Find a place near the sea, you got it made. You might have to work at getting a really great broadband deal, but there are some to be had. If you're single, the women there are beautiful and have sexy accents, you've got the sea and off-season the tourists go away and you can really enjoy the good life. You're a short hop from shopping in Italy, skiing in the Alps and you're still not in the EU (yet). Learn to play tuba in a Balkan horn band. Drink lots of coffee and slivovitza. Go out in your backyard and pick fresh figs for breakfast. Even if swimming in crystal-blue seas is not your idea of fun, you can set yourself down in a sidewalk cafe and watch one Mila Jovovic after another walk by. And there's none of the snobbiness of Western Europe.

Re:30 hours per week?

[demonlapin]

As the old saying goes, the two best things about owning your own business are that you only have to work half a day, and you get to pick which twelve hours that is.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

I like how you completely ignore the important part of the post, and just pick one line to build an effigy off, burn the effigy and claim victory.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

You're happy. Different things. Notably rich people tend to be quite unhappy throughout history, due to having extra worry of "who's out to get me for my wealth" which is constant.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

Indeed. That's why vast majority of artists, scientists and such known by history were typically only sponsored by the rich, rather then actually being rich.

Those fucking stupid people.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

Just out of interest, did you just google first link that looked like it would support your hypothesis and copy paste it, or are you actively trolling?

Because one look at the paper itself tells you very clearly that it's not at all what you pretend it is. It's an analysis on household inheritance of baby boomers within USA.

Large inheritance:

1. Is very much avoided being given to people in USA and in fact in almost all Western countries - it's usually trust funds and companies. Reason for this is taxation. Therefore it's not even featured in the analysis of the paper provided.
2. Such inheritance is usually washed through tax havens and such when it has be to transferred to avoid massive taxation that would be involved.

In conclusion, you don't even know what you're linking or you are intentionally derailing the subject with a lie. But you're cool enough to accuse me of "class warfare" regardless. Ouch.

Re:30 hours per week?

[cusco]

those are just words

Parenting, familial responsibilities, spouse, relationships, those are just words to a lot of these people as well. Even though I work with a bunch of people who generally put in 60 hour weeks it's not anything that I am willing to do on a regular basis. An awful lot of them really don't understand that outlook either, that I may have other interests than work and why I might get pissed off when they tell me Friday that I have to leave Sunday for two weeks out of town. Screw that, I'm willing to make less money and work fewer hours, with the result that I still enjoy my work AND my wife and I are about to celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary.

Re:30 hours per week?

[HornWumpus]

Sounds to me like he was desperate enough that when he crossed paths with a bottom feeder he didn't have the resources to say no.

Avoid that position at all costs. Getting screwed can lead to further screwings.

If that's you, fix it. Live on mac and cheese, hustle up new work, move.

Having the resources to say 'hell no' when someone offers you $15/hour to admin a network is vital. Never negotiate from a position of weakness.

If you do get suckered into working for $15/hour, don't hesitate to leave at the first opportunity. They haven't paid you for 2 seconds notice, much less 2 weeks. The one upside of working such a shitty job is that you have nothing to lose.

My very first job out of college, paid for shit (IIRC it was $15/hour part time in 1988). Get a better offer. Shithead said: 'Are you crazy, I can hire a programmer for less then I pay you now'. I said: 'Hire that programmer, bye.' One of us was bluffing.

Next job wasn't that much better, but it was better.

He's not going to get rich building PCs. He might network into more work that way.

Re:30 hours per week?

[osu-neko]

Is there some reason you copy-pasted PopeRatzo's post? Trying to farm karma or something?

Re:30 hours per week?

[slackware 3.6]

Everyone is not uneducated because they are stupid or lazy some of us come from less than ideal circumstances. I started working when I was 15 and droped out of school at 16 so I could work full time. It's nice to be able to eat and have a car. The work I do is far from menial. And while I'm sure you would preffer a caste system where the privledged have everything including someone to wipe their ass, most well off and educated types would not be as such based on their own merit. And the priviledged always decline usually due to laziness and a sense of entitlement. And because of my hard work my children will be at an advantage financially and better educated than the lazy offsping of those who think they are entitled based on what was given rather than earned. I very much doubt that you are either smart, funny or rich. Generally the more you have the more you work unless you are given everything.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Gr8Apes]

Bill Gates - Rich parents, trust fund with a yearly payout that in itself was extreme wealth in the 70s...... Hmmmm, I think you missed a point there.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Gr8Apes]

Bill Gates was rich in college, and became richer out of school, because he never had to work. He was never really smart. Everything that didn't involve cunning he was a failure at. Even his philanthropy reeks of self-inrichment of a cunning sort, more than anything else. He believes in giving a man a fish. Then charging him 10x for that fish the next time around. Check his history.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Gr8Apes]

Honestly, those are the rich people's kids. They can be used as shining symbols of what happens when unearned wealth gets passed down.

Re:30 hours per week?

[fluffy99]

Sure I have credit card debt, but the house is half paid for

Get rid of the higher interest debt first - that would be the credit card. Also note that the mortgage interest is probably at a much lower effective APR and is tax deductible, whereas that cc interest is not. Too many people focus on paying off the house while they should be paying off the cars, credit cards and other more expensive debts first.

Re:30 hours per week?

[countach74]

wealthy people are wealthy largely because their family is wealthy, not due to hard work (which anyone can do).

Citation needed. Isn't it quite possible that many wealthy people are wealthy largely because their parents taught them how to make and handle money? Yes, there are other advantages to coming from a well off family, but you can make $1m/year and still be broke if you're bad with money.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Myopic]

Poor people rationalize their lives by believing that myth.

Re:30 hours per week?

[sjames]

A bit fast with those nopes, I'd say. All it means is that there appears to be a threshold level for parent's income. Above it, you'll likely do well. Below it, not likely.

Re:30 hours per week?

[captainpanic]

Sssssssshhhht!!! Don't tell the Americans! :)

Re:30 hours per week?

[AmiMoJo]

You are looking at a small number of hand picked examples from a pool of hundreds of millions. Even if you just consider the top 10% of earners most of them were born with a silver spoon up the arse, and it from there on down it's even more true.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Chrisq]

Who the hell works more than 30 hours per week anyway?

Does that include time you are really on slashdot?

Re:30 hours per week?

[mrvan]

[citation required]

Re:30 hours per week?

[1s44c]

Who the hell works more than 30 hours per week anyway?

People who get things done. Some of us are self-employed. Some of us actually care about the stuff we do.

I assume you are pointing out the difference between being at work and actually working.

Re:30 hours per week?

[1s44c]

Menials and the uneducated.

*Rich guy laugh*

And people who work doing the same things they would do for free if they were not being paid.

And the blind stubborn who won't give up no matter what.
 

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

The premise of the book seems to be that the ordinary working stiff can have a net worth (including his house) of a million bucks, by the time he retires. If he works hard, operates in a miserly fashion, and invests wisely.

First of all, it shows selection bias by not considering those that thought they were investing wisely, but happened upon a banking crisis for example. The book having been written in a bull market.

Secondly, the premise itself shows that, due to inflation, one million bucks isn't "rich" any more. Truly rich people are well out of the reach of aspirations of employees. Their wealth has been accumulated over generations.

A "millionaire" was being used in the 1920s as a word for a rich person. There's been an awful lot of inflation since then.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

Money doesn't appear to bring addional happiness once a level of sufficiency is reached. That level is where the bank account stays in the black without you having to worry about it. Becoming rich enough that you don't have to work anymore, for example, won't make you happier.

But poverty can certainly make you unhappy.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

It's not false. The strongest predictor of wealth, is that the person's parents were wealthy.

The reason most people don't recognise this truth, though it's staring them in the face, is that it shows the "American dream" for the sham it is.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

In addition to what you say, it also doesn't cover the most important wealth transfer. That of wealthy parents paying for a prestigious education for their offspring. And the advantage that gives in being in the right "set".

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

Which is a bit alarming when you consider that most wealth is in the unearned, passed down category.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

No, it's not what their parents taught them, it's that their parent's paid for an Ivy League education, which gives them access to the people they need.

If they come up with their own idea for a business they'll get the investment, without having to prove themselves first.

If they don't, they'll get their choice of executive positions at their parents business, or other businesses belonging to someone in the set.

And if they just want to live a life of golf courses and yachts, their parents will fund them to do just that.

It's called being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Re:30 hours per week?

[ultranova]

Some of these people might have had upper middle class parents, but there's a looooooooonnnnngggggg way between "wealthy" and 'richest person on earth".

The Low Earth Orbit is only a few hundred kilometers closer to the Moon than the surface, but those kilometers - about 0.04 percent of the whole journey - are the hardest part. Once you're there, you can work to slowly increase your altitude using the most efficient method at your disposal, but before you reach the orbit, most of your effort is wasted simply to keep from falling right back where you started from.

Re:30 hours per week?

[gordo3000]

do you have any sources that say the majority of wealth in this country was inherited? A skimming the forbes richest list show quite a few people who didn't get there via just cashing an inheritance and others who did (walton's family, as the obvious top examples).

I've generally found in 3rd world countries the amount that inheritance matters and who you know matters far more than in the US. In fact, I think the US is the most democratic on this (I've traveled quite a bit and lived abroad, but I've never done hard research, so I'm not saying this is research). But that is relative across countries, to speak towards working towards your wealth and inheriting in an absolute manner is a hard research question. here is what I mean:

Most upper income people I know got there by hard work, but that is not saying parents didn't help them a lot and that those advantages can be passed down. I know doctors and lawyers (as two high income profession classes), all worked hard to get there, some had lots of family money getting them through, others didn't. What I have found is that having family money helps make up for lower qualifications, making upper income a sticky level to be at (though this doesn't speak to super rich families where children never need to work). A great example is poor performance in college. Upper income people can afford to have their children stay in college longer, pay more for tuition, or send them abroad for medical school to get them to being a doctor. Lower income people just have to fight it out onshore.

Re:30 hours per week?

[gordo3000]

what is yoru definition of wealthy? is it an income level or a net worth level?

I don't understand what you are implying as most people who in communities are thought of as wealthy could afford to do anything but the first option you put forward. Most doctors are wealthy (by any reasonable measure), but they generally do not have the ability to do anything but fund the education of their kids. A doctor's office neither has huge money to pay someone as an executive, or can afford to pay for a top class lifestyle for their children forever.

Re:30 hours per week?

[tehcyder]

Becoming rich enough that you don't have to work anymore, for example, won't make you happier.

It would certainly make me a lot happier.

Those of you in well-paying jobs that you enjoy tend to forget that most of us do jobs we either hate or, at best, are indifferent to.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Alioth]

Bill Gates was born a millionaire. I don't know about the rest.

That gave Bill Gates an important advantage: he could be entrepreneurial, fail, and it's just "oh well, I've lost a tiny fraction of my fortune, let's try again", and could keep trying for some considerable time without any risk to the basics of life (housing, food etc).

A more normal middle class person has to typically risk the roof over their head and everything else they may have to do anything entrepreneurial. The cost of failure is comparatively far higher for them.

Bill Gates had got lucky too -- if the owner of DR-DOS hadn't been out flying (so the story goes) and had met up with IBM instead of Gates, Microsoft may today be a distant memory, or just another company making application software, and while Bill Gates wouldn't have been poor he may have not even been a top 100 earning CEO.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDbNEva9ZsM

Doctors are at the top end of skilled workers. Rich people earn their money from capital. There's a vast chasm between the two.

Of course some doctors do transition from highly paid skilled workers into rich capitalists. But they are not rich simply because doctoring is highly paid.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

No, you only THINK it would make you happier. There are a hell of a lot of lottery winners who thought a few million would allow them to stop work and be happy. And many are very unhappy stories. The happiest of those lottery winners tend to be those that say they are going to carry on working, or say that its not going to affect their lifestyle. The ones that use a lot of the money for charitable purposes rather than spending it on themselves.

How many people die within a year or two of retirement? That's not just because of lack of exercise. It's also because of lack of purpose.

Re:30 hours per week?

[gordo3000]

you realize your video says absolutely nothing about income, and only about where wealth is, but by the nature of... well..... every economic system to date, the high earners will control a huge portion of the wealth because the amount of their income available for savings will outclass the total income of a poor person.
But you have acutally drawn a very clear line in the sand. Doctors, outside of a small few, are still in the land of the not wealthy. This implies that you don't find 10-20 mio dollars of net worth at retirement wealthy (easy, by the standards of most american doctors to reach at retirement, and trivial for highly specialized surgeons).

You seem to be drawing the line at wealthy somewhere in the 9 figure range, an astronomical figure that puts your interest in simple investments in the top tenth, and almost top hundredth of a percent. There are not that many people at that level. Fair enough, but I don't think that is what most people mean when they say wealthy people work for their money. Most people are probably talking about those with a net worth of 5-20 million dollars.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

you realize your video says absolutely nothing about income, and only about where wealth is

My point was to show you that you aren't even thinking about the rich when you consider people who's money came by personally earning it through work. The rich are so much more wealthy than that.

You seem to be drawing the line at wealthy somewhere in the 9 figure range, an astronomical figure that puts your interest in simple investments in the top tenth, and almost top hundredth of a percent.

If I were to put a figure on it, it'd be the top 1%. But it's not about the quantile, it's about the distance from the rest of the people, and the way it comes from inheritance and capitalism, rather than work.

Re:30 hours per week?

[gordo3000]

you've given 0 evidence that the majority of the top 1% are there by inheritance, though saying capitalism is a bit odd. That would imply anyone who started a business could be excluded from having "worked" for their money. Saying that, for wealth, I can't do much but agree. Very few people continue to work for someone else and build up 20 million dollars in wealth (this was the rough 1% cutoff in 2007 and wtih the stock market back at the highs, I'd bet it's pretty damn accurate for now, maybe a touch low).

But the top 1% in income, you are about as wrong as possible. That only requires about 370k in adjusted gross income. Let's say for arguments sake this roughly comes in at 500k per household (as this is tax return data, so I'm not talking about individuals where it comes in much lower). A doctor can easily top this , especially surgeons who generally start at this level. Finance, Medicine, Law are three fields in which that number is easily attained. I can speak directly towards finance where 500k in income is still readily possible 7 years out of college.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Anonymous Coward]

"the women there are beautiful and have sexy accents"
      and you only make $15/hr, good luck with that. Do you see those fancy yachts from the beach, yeah you can't afford it.
"You're a short hop from shopping in Italy"
      which you can't afford to do because you make $15/hr
"skiing in the Alps"
      which you can't afford
"Learn to play tuba in a Balkan horn band"
      for free, still at $15/hr
"Go out in your backyard and pick fresh figs for breakfast"
      that will end in a messy situation

So in the end you are just as broke and a half-ass drunk who thinks he can play the tuba who also has the runs because you eat figs everyday. Yeah! Those ladies are lining up at the door! They really love that splatty tuba sound from both ends!

Re:30 hours per week?

[sl4shd0rk]

Poor people rationalize their lives by believing that myth.

Miserable people find fault anywhere they can to keep their lives dysfunctional.

Re:30 hours per week?

[gl4ss]

The premise of the book seems to be that the ordinary working stiff can have a net worth (including his house) of a million bucks, by the time he retires. If he works hard, operates in a miserly fashion, and invests wisely.

First of all, it shows selection bias by not considering those that thought they were investing wisely, but happened upon a banking crisis for example. The book having been written in a bull market.

Secondly, the premise itself shows that, due to inflation, one million bucks isn't "rich" any more. Truly rich people are well out of the reach of aspirations of employees. Their wealth has been accumulated over generations.

A "millionaire" was being used in the 1920s as a word for a rich person. There's been an awful lot of inflation since then.

I think the thing to take home from that book then is quite simply this: if you don't save up you can burn a million bucks while having fun.

I don't make crazy amounts of money.. but I sure ain't saving it all. the thing is, with this paylevel, if I was living in malaysia or somewhere similar and doing this exact same job then I could afford to have other people take care of my laundry, keep my hobby components categorized etc.

It's not about how rich you are but about how poor the other guys are!

Re:30 hours per week?

[Score Whore]

To begin with you apparently completely missed the point of my post. I was responding to the guy who claimed that the vast majority of rich people got it by inheritance. That is plainly untrue and comments of that nature reveal great ignorance and deep seated jealousy. It's a rationalization of angry feelings that someone appears to be living a better life than the poster.

However I'm curious if you have you actually read the book or are you just quoting Wikipedia's criticisms? The book isn't about how an ordinary working stiff can accumulate a million dollars through hard work and penny-pinching. Nor is it a guide to how to become a millionaire. It's market research about who the millionaires are. The millionaires in the book aren't stock traders, they are business builders. They are rich because they created value not because they traded their way to paper riches.

The rest of your post is just quibbling about the definition of rich. I can tell you this, if you have just $1,000,000 -- an amount you seem to think is very little -- in productive assets, you can reliably count on $50,000/year in passive income. That seems pretty rich to me. No it's not going to provide you with a gold plated mansion, you're not going to be chauffeured around in a stretch limo everywhere you go, you don't have a private jet. But an extra $50,000 each year means you can travel regularly, you aren't insecure about your employment, you don't have to worry about going hungry, you can live in a good city and enjoy all the benefits of a cosmopolitan lifestyle, and you don't have to worry about sending your children to good schools. Or you can continue living less than your means and watch it grow so that you can retire ten years early and still have an income above the median.

Re:30 hours per week?

[datavirtue]

....accurate STATISTICAL predictor......

(my pedantic deed of the day)

Re:30 hours per week?

[datavirtue]

Yeah, I crossed paths with numerous people who had inherited fortunes and smoked it in a crack pipe--some every last cent. Kids who grew into adults and continued their habits. In fact, 90% of the crack addicts I have ever known personally were very rich.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Gordonjcp]

So, you work your life away for a few pennies? That's pretty sad, really. Have you ever done anything worthwhile?

Re:30 hours per week?

[Shirley Marquez]

People who want to stop work to live a life of leisure mostly don't end up happy. People who want to stop unfulfilling work and instead spend their time working on things that interest them and help the world (but perhaps don't pay) might well end up happier by winning the lottery.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stubbyfingers]

I worked in a 10 man shop supporting a user base of 1200+. My boss once said if we ever worked a 40hour week, he'd charge it to VACATION AND SICK LEAVE.

A 60 hour week was pretty standard. 90 hour weeks weren't unheard of.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stubbyfingers]

This is why I am not and do not WANT to be an entrepreneur. I want to do my bit, cash my check, and go the hell home.
Now, I HAVE worked in places where a 40hr week didn't get the job done--and I accepted that--because they PAID me for it.

What I don't understand is there's become this attitude that everybody has to be a high roller entrepreneur and work 100 hour weeks and maybe succeed and maybe bankrupt yourself and leave your family homeless. WHY? If somebody WANTS to do that--let'em. I don't--but American society is going to the Darwinian "Top Dog or dead dog" model. You're a successful CEO of a multi-million dollar company--or you're roadkill.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Luckyo]

So, in your opinion "stupidity" equals "not picking up bomb making and terrorism"?

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

you've given 0 evidence that the majority of the top 1% are there by inheritance

We're not in a court of law. My opinions are made up of my experiences and of things that I have read over many years.

though saying capitalism is a bit odd. That would imply anyone who started a business could be excluded from having "worked" for their money.

Capitalism is making money from capital. It's not working for money. Entrepreneurs who work 12 hours a day to make their business work are workers, not capitalists. They may become capitalists later in life, if and when they do more making money from capital than making money from working.

But the top 1% in income

At no point have I said income. Rich people are rich because of what they own, and their incomes are whatever their tax accountants can get away with.

That only requires about 370k in adjusted gross income.... A doctor can easily top this

As I already said,a doctor is a skilled worker, not a capitalist.

If someone is getting 370k (according to his tax accountant) from capital, what is he worth? Say he makes 5% a year (unlikely, as a lot of his worth, like his house, won't be bringing in an income), he's worth 7.5 million. Yes, that's rich.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

It's not about how rich you are but about how poor the other guys are!

I may be eating road kill, but that guy over there is eating out of bins.

Re:30 hours per week?

[udachny]

Obviously most people want to work certain number of hours, get paid a pre-negotiated pay for the hours and be done with it after work. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to do it on your own, to each his own.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

To begin with you apparently completely missed the point of my post. I was responding to the guy who claimed that the vast majority of rich people got it by inheritance.

And he's right. Though it isn't just inheritance, it's funding an ivy league education, and investing in the kids ideas, or giving him a job as an exec in the family firm.

The number one predictor of whether a child will become rich is whether his parents are rich.

However I'm curious if you have you actually read the book or are you just quoting Wikipedia's criticisms?

I flicked through it years ago in the self-help section of a book-store. I didn't buy it. It seemed like a recipe for living a poor life for the sake of a big bank balance when you are old. Is it still published?

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stubbyfingers]

Per most GOP members, as an "employee" I neither deserve to live, eat, or have a place in the Great Hereafter if I'm not an ENTREPRENEUR.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Score Whore]

And he's right. Though it isn't just inheritance, it's funding an ivy league education, and investing in the kids ideas, or giving him a job as an exec in the family firm.

Why do you say he's right and then proceed to state a completely different thesis? The argument presented was that the vast majority of rich people either inherited or married wealth and that they only work to the minimum extent necessary to keep the inherited/married money coming. This is blatantly false. At the time that The Millionaire Next Door was written the statistics were that 2/3rds of the millionaires in America were first generation and self-made. Perhaps the numbers have changed since 1996, but not to the extent that "There's a handful who actually did work for their money, and who tend to get used to working long hours. These certainly exist, but they're few and in between." is an accurate statement.

And this

The number one predictor of whether a child will become rich is whether his parents are rich.

Does not refute or support the premise that most rich people inherited their wealth. It's a completely orthogonal fact. Additionally there's nothing surprising that hardworking parents raise hardworking children and that parents with poor decision making skills raise children with poor decision making skills.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

"And he's right. Though it isn't just inheritance, it's funding an ivy league education, and investing in the kids ideas, or giving him a job as an exec in the family firm."

Why do you say he's right and then proceed to state a completely different thesis

Because it wasn't a different thesis. He was clearly using the informal use of the word "inherited" meaning intergenerational wealth transfer. You can tell that because he later mentions "keeping the relatives happy", which implies that they aren't dead at that point, and thus the money isn't strictly inheritance.

I merely made clear that the scope is wider than simple inheritance.

Additionally there's nothing surprising that hardworking parents raise hardworking children and that parents with poor decision making skills raise children with poor decision making skills.

The red herring here is "hardworking". There is no strong correlation between hardworking and rich. Subsistence farming for example is far harder work than arranging the occasional deal on a golf course.

Similar for decision making skills. A poor person can be great at making decisions, it's not necessarily going to make him rich. And vice versa.

Reading between the lines, you seem to think that people are rich because they deserve it. And that simply isn't necessarily true. To repeat an example someone else used earlier, Paris Hilton is neither hard-working, nor a good decision maker. But she is very rich. She can not work hard and make poor decisions for the rest of her life, and she'll till be rich. She's had plenty of inter-generational wealth transfer, which most people would refer to as inherited wealth, though her parents aren't dead yet, so it's not inherited by the strict definition.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Score Whore]

Because it wasn't a different thesis. He was clearly using the informal use of the word "inherited" meaning intergenerational wealth transfer. You can tell that because he later mentions "keeping the relatives happy", which implies that they aren't dead at that point, and thus the money isn't strictly inheritance.

It's a completely different thesis. My point is that Luckyo made the statement that very few wealthy people are wealthy because of their own labor. He describes "rich" people who do not work. I pointed out that according to at least one source the majority of "rich" people are rich because they created their own wealth. No one has shown a source that disputes that. Merely repeating "the strongest indicator of a child's future wealth is the parent's wealth" isn't argument, it's simple correlation and doesn't speak to rates of economic mobility at all.

This is getting far afield from my correction of Luckyo's false statement. If you want to continue discussing this, I'd be happy to but not if you are going to search for the most uncharitable interpretation of my statements possible and then try and score cheap points. It's clear from context that the phrase hardworking isn't a description of physical labor, it's a personality description encompassing multiple traits. And your golf course wheeler-dealers have no source in my statements.

Re:30 hours per week?

[udachny]

That's not true, labour is just another product and/or service in the market.

Imagine a situation where there are more entrepreneurs than laborers, workers, employees. So this means that the system is awash in capital in investment and in people with ideas but there are just not enough people to work for them.

What will happen in that case? The exact opposite of what happens when there are 1000 employees for each position because there is not enough capital, not enough investment. There will be increased competition for labor, for employees. So prices for labor will go up and interest rates for return on capital will go down (not because of governments printing and handing out stacks of cash, which is a metaphor for what happens today, but because there is a huge supply of savings and so the price for money goes down naturally).

If then the entrepreneurs are a voting majority, then they can do the same thing that the voting majority (employees, laborers) are doing today: vote for people into the offices that would promise to "protect them".

Here is what you are complaining about: you are living in a system that has little investment capital and a very large number of people who are hoping that somebody with investment capital will hire them and pay them a salary. In this situation what was happening for 100 years now is that the majority, the employees have voted in officials that promised "employee rights".

But what are "employee rights"? They are not natural rights, they are special entitlements, which put obligations upon the minority - employers. So "employee rights" are actually a tax upon the employers.

Do you understand why the few employers that are still in business are doing everything they can to buy politicians and turn them to their side? Because they are a minority and they are being actively discriminated against by the system by law by the majority. So if this was NOT happening, if the majority didn't take over the law, didn't vote in the politicians who promised to satisfy their immediate requests at the expense of the equality of people before law (for example a progressive income tax or any form of regulation that transfers wealth from a business to an employee not based on the agreement, but because of a government legislation) then there wouldn't be such a push and there wouldn't even be a possibility for the few to try and buy the law makers to get a leg up, because the law makers would actually still be bound, limited by the chains of the law.

Constitution is supposed to ensure that all people are treated equally by the law, that there are no special people that get subsidies from others basically, so everybody's real rights (right to own and operate private property without government intervening unfairly, in a way that prefers some at the expense of the others) are observed.

But that's not what happened over the last 100 years, the opposite happened. In reality there are no group rights, there are no minority rights, there are no employee rights, there are no women's rights, there are no gay rights, there are no disabled people rights, etc.

There are only individual rights, human rights. If you take a group and position it in a way that gives it something at the expense of somebody else, that's not a right, that's an entitlement for that group and an obligation for somebody else.

So I understand your point, but you are missing the root cause of the problem that you are describing. Really, GOP shouldn't be in a position either to take or give anything from anybody and to anybody. Neither should any government official, any part, not even the POTUS.

No government official should be able to discriminate against one person and give preferential treatment to another person. They shouldn't be able to pass laws that give preferential treatment to people. That's why I find part of the the "Civil Rights Act of 1964" that forces private individuals to "not discriminate" an aberration. Nobody should be forced to deal, to associate

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

Your source is a self help book that's selling the idea that you can amass a million dollars by retirement by living like a miser, and investing your savings. It's not actually analysing real rich people.

For sure it gives little "factoids", often in the form of claimed stats. As do most self help books. As I say I rejected the book, so I don't have it here to quote from. But most self help book stats aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I'm sure there's an appendix, so is there some particular stat that you want to point out the primary source for? Maybe we can track down whether it's real or not.

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stubbyfingers]

The Equal Right act did 2 things. YES, it forced people in power to stop discriminating by race. It also removed all LEGAL discrimination (the "Jim Crow" laws that actually gave Legal support to discrimination. BUT i'm not talking about that. We're MOSTLY past the age where people of color couldn't enter through the front door and needed to be out of town by sundown. (BTW, in my hometown, that law was still on the books and some old farts still thought it was enforceable and were ANGRY when it wasn't)

I'm talking about wages and benefits alone.
I had this conversation with a guy after the 2012 election. He was ranting about Obama getting re-elected. He said it shouldn't count because there were still questions as to his citizenship and immigration status (Yeah, he not only thinks Obama is Kenya born, but in the country illegally--honestly believes it) and ALL of his supporters were on welfare and shouldn't have been allowed to vote anyway. As far as he was concerned, HIS votes should count more because he had several businesses and was helping the country more than ANY individuals. "OH, so you don't vote as an individual, you vote as a shareholder and the more shares, the more your vote counts", I said. "EXACTLY!" He was going on about how people thought the world owed them a living when they weren't really contributing to it if they didn't actually have a business of their own that DID something useful.
I replied that the WORLD doesn't owe an individual a living, but EMPLOYERS owe their EMPLOYEES one. He called me a "Commie". Then began telling me that their SHOULD be NO minimum wage and how the Obamanistas were talking about raising it from $7ish/hr to $10/hr. None of HIS employees got $10/hr and they weren't WORTH the $7 that he was forced to pay them. He was barely breaking even paying minimum wage.
I said that if he was paying his FULL TIME employees so little that they still qualified for Welfare, Food Stamps, Rent and Utility assistance and Medicare, then it was HE who was recieving the most benefit from welfare--not his employees. He is not allowed to shortchange the developer on the lease for his business properties. His business would be dark if he didn't pay his full utility bill for several months. His suppliers wouldn't send him the materials that he needs to produce his products if he underpaid them. Why, then, should he be allowed to gyp his employees out of a living and health benefits, just because it was the ONLY part of the equasion that would allow it? I also said if he couldn't pay his employees a living wage for their labor and still make money, then perhaps his talents weren't in business.
He said "FUCK YOU! YOU COMMIE PINKO BASTARD".

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stubbyfingers]

One additional note...if "all Obama supporters are on Welfare" then we have a welfare rate of at LEAST 51%. Perhaps something is "BROKEN" in our economy and "100% pure Capitalism" isn't the answer.

Re:30 hours per week?

[udachny]

Yeah, something is broken and it's not capitalism, it's lack of capitalism.

Of-course there shouldn't be any special subsidies by the government threat of violence to the employees at the expense of employers (minimum wage is a tax that goes directly from one person to another). People should be able to come to a mutual agreement about the terms of the employment and clearly most people are not paid minimum wage even today, when there is a law like that.

I worked as an employee for a number of years, before that I took various temporary jobs, now those temp jobs actually paid about minimum wage, but later I got a permanent position with flexible hours while was studying (and working at the same time), so that was already about 30% above the minimum wage. Most people don't get minimum wage salaries, they get paid more than that because over time they become more valuable employees, they learn the necessary skills, get the experience, etc. I think I spent about 4 or 5 years in that job and by the time I left for contracts I was making about 5 times the minimum wage. The contracts are a different matter altogether, it's all about hourly wage and you search for the best one, hopefully at least 10 times minimum wage (at least). So how does minimum wage concern most people? It doesn't on the surface, but underneath the surface it's a terrible thing for everybody.

You see, minimum wage is just a way for the government to hide the inflation. The gov't prints money and tries to hide the fact that the dollars buy less and less over time and they use the employers as the scapegoats, they put this tax on them to make it look like it's the employers that are the problem, not the value of money. Of-course by raising prices for labour to some artificial level what the government really does is it makes labour more expensive and so the demand for labour goes down in the market, many of the people who would otherwise be working now can't find jobs, they are just not productive enough at their level of skills and expertise for the employers to hire them at maybe something like 2 or 3 times their actual real market price.

Now, I saw that you wrote something like: employer owes the employee a living wage and that's also a fallacy. Have you ever needed a babysitter? Just asking. Do you owe anything to a babysitter beyond what you agree for the hours of the service? How about if you were a mechanic and owned a garage and somebody without experience asked you to hire them, would you owe them a 'living wage'? Why?

What if the person in question specifically wanted to get hired for very little money? Why, would you ask he'd do that? Because he may be smart and decided never to go to college and at the age of 14 or 15 came to your garage and asked you to teach him what you know in exchange for various help around the garage (so instead of racking up debt in college, in 3-4 years the kid would actually have useful skills and be able to get a job as a mechanic maybe, maybe in your garage or some other place and maybe he'd eventually open his own garage)?

What if there is a person who just landed into your country as an immigrant and he has no idea about anything, he needs at least some job to start looking around while he is learning things? What if a former inmate walked into your store or office or whatever and asked for help - he needs a job, he needs to restart his life, but he has no experience, etc.?

That's what the minimum wage law prevents, all these various opportunities to the people who are really starting at the bottom of the economic ladder. The minimum wage hides inflation that the government creates and it prevents people from working, in some cases it prevents people from working ever again.

That's why minimum wage is bad economically, but by a moral standard it cannot exist at all, because it's discrimination all around, it's discrimination against the employer and employee right to free association, it's against the right of people to run their o

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stubbyfingers]

The "Pure Capitalism" model has been tried. Employers pretty much paid their employees enough to keep them alive and not much more. When business went down, cutting wages below starvation was a neat way of culling the weaker employees.

NO.

Re:30 hours per week?

[dywolf]

ya right. give me a million in the bank and ill show you just how happy i can be.
if i won the lottoe i'd pay off everyone first (Taxes, help family), toss everything else into secure investments (low risk, thank you very much) ...and then you'd never see me again. i'd be taking a slow boat around the world for the rest of my life, living off the interest/income.

Re:30 hours per week?

[dywolf]

sh-- holes? no.
but many of those places do have much more frequent bouts of civic violence and fewer everyday freedoms that we take for granted (unless you have enough to buy your "freedom" via bribery, like in the "good old days"...rich people tend to always be fairly "free").

Re:30 hours per week?

[Stubbyfingers]

OK, You're going to give long winded arguments that if we let the Pure Capitalists have their way--their basic honesty and fairness will have their employees fat and happy.

I'm done trying to shoot down your Ayn Rand Epistomology--Ms. Rand said bluntly that employees are not worht the wages you have to pay them in one of her essays. (yes, I've read many of them)

All I can say is BULLSHIT!

Employers would cut wages until the Gov't HAD to step in and feed the masses to keep them from rioting--and then say their taxes to pay the army to keep the bad elements from knocking down their walls were too high.
Society IS NOT about YOU making a profit. You CAN make a profit, but you CAN'T do injury to others to do it (broad definition of INJURY here--you can't beat them, cheat them out of the agreed wages, pay them less than the legal minimum--and that's employees) For NON employees, you can't steal from them, deprive them of THEIR livelihood or make it impossible to live in your shadow [ie, you can't cut a guy off from competeing with you by burning the bridge to his place of business--you can't INTENTIONALLY pollute downstream of your business so that other's can't drink the water or breathe the air])

Re:30 hours per week?

[A bsd fool]

I have a great job that I enjoy in the easiest environment possible (home). I'm in the "bank always in the black, don't think about it" category. However, having enough money that to ensure I never had to work again, while maintaining or improving my current standard of living, would certainly make me happier.

The happiness of being able to sleep until noon every day if I so desired may be a small measure, but it's not nil, as is the happiness of never having to consider the possibility of losing my job (and thus my income) when planning for the future.

To paraphrase one of your own replies here, No, you only THINK it would NOT make me happier.

I assure you, your opinion is wrong, and trying to speak in such broad strokes while citing the plight of a few lottery winners isn't even enough of an argument to qualify as anecdotal.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

I have more than a few lottery winners to go on, I have my own personal experience of what I did when I made a lot of money in the .com boom. Yes, it's still anecdote, but I thought the easy life of getting up when I wanted, and living 5 mins from the beach would make me happy. It didn't.

As I said you THINK it will make you happier. You don't know. It might work out differently for you. But you don't know.

Happiness has been a hot topic of academic study in recent years. And everything I've read says I'm not unusual. That what you think will make uyou happy is quite different from what actually does.

In truth the things that make you happy are having a family, putting your efforts to helping others, not yourself. And taking time to appreciate what you do have.

Re:30 hours per week?

[A bsd fool]

You don't sound quite sanctimonious *enough*, try harder.

The whole "You don't know what makes you happy, that's just an opinion, but I KNOW in truth what will make you happy" has been a really good start though. Sorry bub, "in truth" you have no idea what makes me or any other random stranger happy.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

Don't worry, I know you're your own individual snowflake. And no generalisations ever apply to you. Certainly not. No way.

And you certainly know, In advance, what your reaction will be to a situation you 've never experienced before.

Happy now?

Re:30 hours per week?

[AG the other]

It really depends on the industry that you work in. My wife is a CPA and during the winter and spring she tends to work 60 to 70 hours and was turned down for a job because she didn't think that she could keep up the average 100 hours a week that the people in that office averaged during the spring.
Many lawyers do the same thing when they have the work to do 70 to 80 hours a week aren't unusual.
When I was running my PC repair business I worked until I finished my work most of the time.

Re:30 hours per week?

[A bsd fool]

It's not that I know for certain, it's that you don't -- certainly not when it applies to anyone other than yourself. Telling me or anyone else here what would or wouldn't make them happy is the height of arrogance. Saccharine coated feelgood thoughts like "family", "helping others" and "appreciating what you have" may work for you, that doesn't mean they work for everyone.

Re:30 hours per week?

[anyGould]

Money doesn't appear to bring addional happiness once a level of sufficiency is reached.

Which, if memory serves, has been measured at about $75K a year (as in, that's the point where making more money stops equating to additional "happiness", just more toys.

Re:30 hours per week?

[BasilBrush]

Telling me or anyone else here what would or wouldn't make them happy is the height of arrogance.

No more than if I told you what kinds of activities would make you fit and vice versa. Or what was bad for your heart. The mind, like the body, has some universal ways in which they work.

Saccharine coated feelgood thoughts like "family", "helping others" and "appreciating what you have" may work for you, that doesn't mean they work for everyone.

It's not saccharine coated anything. Nor anecdotes. As I said in recent years scientists have been studying what makes people happy. Actual experiments. These are the results. It's not distilled from grandma's wise sayings, or what the preacher says.

For example: http://www.lifeedited.com/get-happy-spending-money-just-not-on-yourself-or-buying-stuff/

Re:30 hours per week?

[surd1618]

I/4 of illegal immigrants are under 24 years of age
http://www.mercurynews.com/politics-national/2013/01/seven-facts-about-illegal-immigrants-in-the-united-states/

I'd rather live in a world where I could have spent plenty of time fooling around when I was a kid. Personally, I had a hard time with math classes sometimes because I was actually interested. I was reprimanded by my geometry teacher for showing him my studies of the pythagorean theorem on a day when I didn't turn in my homework, but I think I learned more when I followed my interests. I'd rather work on interesting coding problems, even for lower wages, than constantly seek the highest fiduciary recognition for troubleshooting problems with fundamentally flawed APIs or hyper-proprietary BS.

What article

[serialband]

I don't see a link for an article.

Re:What article

[swanzilla]

Knock yourself out.

Re:What article

[ph1ll]

... and I can't find a country called Malysia (please note, editors: it's Malaysia).

I know Malaysia well (even though I live in the UK). I first went there in '97 and married a Malaysian-born woman. Some observations:

• They really like and respect white people.
• They don't particularly like Chinese people (my wife is half Chinese so I see rampant discrimination against this large minority - about 25% of Malaysia's population - all the time).
• The weather is great (although sometimes a little too humid).
• Kuala Lumpur is a very advanced city that can compare to anything in the West.
• Broadband speeds are so-so according to my cousin-in-law.
• There appears to be a demand for good engineers (according to another cousin-in-law, a Chinese who studied IT in England). So, assuming you can get a visa, getting some interesting work shouldn't be too hard.
• The political situation there is... interesting. But I get the impression that if you don't cause trouble you will be left alone - especially if you are white.

HTH

Re:What article

[tlhIngan]

I know Malaysia well (even though I live in the UK). I first went there in '97 and married a Malaysian-born woman. Some observations:
  They really like and respect white people.
They don't particularly like Chinese people (my wife is half Chinese so I see rampant discrimination against this large minority - about 25% of Malaysia's population - all the time).
The weather is great (although sometimes a little too humid).
Kuala Lumpur is a very advanced city that can compare to anything in the West.
Broadband speeds are so-so according to my cousin-in-law.
There appears to be a demand for good engineers (according to another cousin-in-law, a Chinese who studied IT in England). So, assuming you can get a visa, getting some interesting work shouldn't be too hard.
The political situation there is... interesting. But I get the impression that if you don't cause trouble you will be left alone - especially if you are white.

HTH

The reason is that after the war or so, the first people to start running businesses and such were Chinese (most likely chased out from Singapore by the Japanese), and they got very rich doing so.

The government exploits the fact that a lot of Malaysians are jealous of the Chinese for being successful (which happens because they worked hard at building businesses and such) , so they put up huge campaigns of national identity and such to encourage hatred of the Chinese. However, they government doesn't really do anything about it (they can't - said Chinese businesses pay a good amount of tax and employ a lot of Malays). So basically the Chinese are demonized for being successful and "exploiting" Malays

If you're white, you're usually a tourist or an investor, so you're treated well to get at your $$$. If you're a Chinese investor with $$$, everyone eyes you like you're going to enslave them.

The government feeds off this sentiment and basically just fans the flames. There's no real democracy (there is voting, but the opposition is usually highly discredited, or even arrested if they have a chance of winning - being a Muslim state, there are plenty of "crimes" that one can accuse the Opposition of).

Re:What article

[SteveFoerster]

I gather that this happens to Chinese people in a lot of places. Many people in Dominica, where I've lived, harbour mixed feelings about the Taiwanese who live there and tend to do well because they're frugal and work hard.

Re:What article

[Kagato]

That closes the loop on what I noticed about the Chinese in Singapore hating the Japanese. I actually witnessed a shop keeper play dumb with a Japanese trying to buy something using Engrish. Old Japanese guy stormed out in frustration. I go to buy something, no problem, he explained the other guy was Japanese.

I don't know if I would choose Malaysia or Singapore though. Both are kind of strict countries if you run afoul of the local powers that be. Fun to visit, not so much on the living there. I'd hit up Belize. Nice locals, cheap and only 1 hour plane ride to Miami if the shit goes down.

Re:What article

[qirtaiba]

I live in Malaysia and I can't agree with the "don't like Chinese people" part. You probably mean that "Malays" don't particularly like Chinese people (which may or may not be true; I'm not touching it). But as you've suggested, Malays are only one of the three ethnic groups that make up Malaysia; Chinese and Indians are the others. And in some parts of Malaysia, like Penang (beautiful place for a programmer to live!) Chinese are in the majority. There are also Chinese political parties who are strong in both the government and the opposition coalitions. Mostly the Malays and the Chinese get along fine, though they do have distinct cultural identities and people are relatively open with their gripes about the other cultures.

Re:What article

[mjwalshe]

I seriously considered working as an expat in Malaysia for BT and the Apartheid with a brownface aspect put me off and also if your a guy you have to get your hair cut to the approved length as did one of my coworkers who did go out there. Also the humidity is killing my co-worker had to abandon his posting because it affected his asthma.

Re:What article

[hairyfish]

I've spent a bit of time there myself and love the place, but I wouldn't call KL "very advanced" by western standards. It's ok, but it mostly a developing city with pockets of western infrastructure. I have friends who were lucky enough to get expat packages there, western wages with Malaysian living expenses. That is living the dream! If I had the opportunity (read: expat contract) I'd move there in a heartbeat.

Re:What article

[jrumney]

The reason is that after the war or so, the first people to start running businesses and such were Chinese (most likely chased out from Singapore by the Japanese)

Because before the war, there was no business in Malaya, and all the Chinese were on Singapore? How about learning some history before you start trying to teach it.

Re:What article

[rubycodez]

I have news for you that may be of interest. you are of mixed racial ancestry, and I can prove it. Name the geographical locations of your supposed "racially pure" ancestors.

Re:What article

[dkf]

Because before the war, there was no business in Malaya, and all the Chinese were on Singapore? How about learning some history before you start trying to teach it.

Yes. For example, prior to WW2 the (British colonial) capital of Malaysia was Singapore. Singapore and Malaysia went their different ways because the Chinese (in Singapore) and the Malays didn't want to be ruled by the other group. "Dump on the other guys" has been a classic way of running a democracy in a highly divided society; you see it in many places. (It's worse where you've got race as a distinguisher as well as political perspective, but it's not good anywhere and it's a very common type of demagoguery.)

Re:What article

[osu-neko]

Wow. I honestly didn't think people this ignorant still existed... do you still believe the world is flat, too?

For the record, there never has and never will be races that exist as "genetically distinct units". Humans have always been too mobile, even in prehistoric times, and genetic studies have shown how genetic adaptions have moved around the world, crossing genetic "barriers" as they move through regions where "races" mix as if race didn't really even exist as a physical fact. The reason for that is, it doesn't, and never did. To the extent races exist at all, the dividing line between them is an arbitrary, human-defined line, not a physical or biological thing. It's like the line between the US and Canada -- you have to examine the laws to find it, no examination of a patch of forest that it runs through will reveal where it lies unless someone earlier came by and put up a signpost. It's a social construct, not a natural one. If you know enough about the commonly found genetics in two nations, you can get a genetic sample from two individuals and make a good guess about which one came from which nation, but it'd be a probabilistic thing, as there's no sharp divide between so-called races, just a continuous genetic gradient.

Re:What article

[cusco]

WTF is wrong with you? Are you entirely ignorant of history? There isn't a single region of Europe that hasn't been washed over with waves of migrations and invasions that mixed the genetics of every group with every other. Let's just look at England for example. They were invaded by Celts, Britons, Normans, Vikings, Picts, Scots, Danes and Romans (I'm sure I've forgotten some). How about Poland? After the Romans (or at least their mercenaries), Franks, Huns, Tarters, Swedes, Vikings, Mongols, Czechs, and Danes got done invading the Hungars, Cossacks, Germans and Russians took over the job. (Only the incredible barbarity of Vlad Tepes kept the Turks out.) And in both countries were the Jews and the Gypsies, marrying into the upper and lower classes respectively, and wealthy and aristocratic families continually exchanged children from Moscow to Lisbon, and Stockholm to Naples. Traders, mercenaries, pirates and raiders of every stripe roamed the continent. Rather than being some sort of pure race, the Europeans are the biggest mongrels of any population on the planet.

Re:What article

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to correct you on your history of Malaysia.

The chinese have been in Malaysia long before the war with the japanese. They were in Malaysia from its initial founding in Malacca way back in the 1400s. Malacca had good relations with China which kept them safe from local powers (e.g. The siamese.). The 4th Sultan of Malacca married a princess from China, leading to a mixture of Chinese and Malay culture which we call "baba nyonya".

The next wave of Chinese was brought in by the British when they colonised Malaysia. The chinese were brought in for mining tin, if you look at all the mining towns in Malaysia, they will be chinese dominated.

Its also worth noting that "Malaysia" as you know of now, didn't exist until 1963, and Singapore was part of Malaysia and its history until 1965.

Re:What article

[unixisc]

Singapore was expelled in 1965 from Malaysia, after a lot of heated debate about whether Malaysia should follow the Bhumiputra template and favor Malays, or whether rights should be equal for all. It wasn't exactly each group not wanting to be discriminated against by the other group.

Re:What article

[Anonymous Coward]

t the Chinese in Singapore hating the Japanese.

All Chinese hate the Japanese. Does "Nanking Massacre" ring a bell?

Re:What article

[IMightB]

I married a Malay woman as well and have been over to Malaysia numerous times. I agree that Kuala Lumpur is a very modern city (reminds me a lot of New York but with billions of small motorcycles). Outside of KL, there are a handfull of other cities such as Johor and Malacca that I wouldn't mind living in but most of Malaysia is still kampung (village) style living. Where people still farm rice paddies and live in dirt floor, thatch roof, housing.

High tech in KL or Johor is a great field to be in. Johor for manufacturing and KL for developing. Malacca is more of a tourist town. Also, crime is rampant. My in-laws in KL have multiple deadbolt locks on each door as well a shoulder high wall around their property (compound) with embedded glass in the top and they still get broken into roughly ever other year. They went through a bit of culture shock when they came to stay with us for a few months after our son was born that we only had one deadbolt and didn't punctually (OCD style) lock it when we were home. Minor bribery is (referred to as coffee money) is standard.

Also, they do not have a handle on environmental issues or even waste disposal. KL is littered with trash (I think is more of a asian cultural issue though) as well as the rest of the country to varying degrees. If you're not Native Malay (read Muslim) the laws are stacked against you. But overall the cost of living there is about 1/4 to 1/5 what it is here. You can get a live in (Room and Board) Indonesian Maid/Nanny for about $1,200 US (4,500 Ringit) licensing/permit and $50 US/month ($200 Ringit). As a white guy, every time I've been over there I've been treated very well and I would consider living there if my situation permitted.

Re:What article

[IMightB]

As far as they Chinese are concerned from the information I've gathered in my travels, this attitude about the Chinese is more a reaction/backlash against the Chinese attitude of "It's OK to screw over everyone else except for other Chinese"

Re:What article

[SimplyGeek]

You must be fun at parties...

Re:What article

[dywolf]

Chile is more my flavor. bit of argentinian flavor, including real cowboys (gauchos), lot like the mountain deserts of nevada i grew up in, rather than swampy jungle/grassland like the lowlands to the east. couple nice sized cities, relatively stable government (compared to most of south america especailly), relatively open/free society.

Re:What article

[bar-agent]

For the record, there never has and never will be races that exist as "genetically distinct units". Humans have always been too mobile, even in prehistoric times

Hell, we banged Neanderthals back in the day. People aren't picky about who they shack up with.

Um, what article?

[rk]

No link in the summary, no link after the fold. Really?

Re:Um, what article?

[CriminalNerd]

It's not like anybody clicks the link anyway.

Re:Um, what article?

[rk]

I must be new here.

Re:Um, what article?

[93 Escort Wagon]

I must be new here.

How'd you erase the first three digits of your Slashdot UID?

Re:Um, what article?

[sidevans]

Probably by being older than you

Re:Um, what article?

[CptNerd]

How do you know it was the first three?

Re:Um, what article?

[sdw]

And, relative to his ID, isn't it the first two that are missing?

Re:Um, what article?

[TheRealHocusLocus]

If slashdot was a paper newspaper, every day they'd be receiving tons of papers by return mail marked up with pen, crayon and lipstick. Typos circled, comments in the margins. Parakeet poop used as white-out.

"[...] and please mail paper back when you see this comment. I'm not finished reading it yet"

Missing link.

[Bongoots]

Has /. evolved to a point where there is no A to RTF?

Re:Missing link.

[Bongoots]

I found the missing link!

http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/unchartered-waters/interview-with-a-digital-migrant-meet-john-hunter/

Re:Missing link.

[Anonymous Coward]

Has /. evolved to a point where there is no A to RTF?

An A has vanished from "Malysia" too. Open season, I guess.

Re:Missing link.

[fustakrakich]

I found the missing link!

So, was Darwin right?

Thread hijack:

I know a Brit who works for a German bank and lives anywhere tropical, sometimes Thailand, sometimes Mexico... Globalism is cool... this is the way it's supposed to work

Re:Missing link.

[Anonymous Coward]

F**king "A".

How did it?

[Bloody Bastard]

How did it get to the front page without the link?

Re:How did it?

[Dan East]

How did it get to the front page without the link?

I don't know what website you think you're on, but this is Slashdot.

Re:How did it?

[Anonymous Coward]

THIS is SLASHDOT!!!!!

/spartanpitkick

Lovely article

[onyxruby]

Next time we might even get an article with a link. Finally an excuse not to RTFA!

Move to country with cheap expenses while retaining job with good pay. Sounds simple, I'm sure everyone has done it, after all there can't be any complications?

Re:Lovely article

[HornWumpus]

You need an excuse not to RTFA?

Re:Lovely article

[girlintraining]

You need an excuse not to RTFA?

Sorry, he meant to say "Finally an excuse that isn't the default!"

$SLASHDOT_DEFAULT_RTFA_REASON = "TL;DR"

I know folks working in Malaysia...

[gatkinso]

...and getting over $100K a year.

But if $16K floats your boat... by all means take the job.

Re:I know folks working in Malaysia...

[Trepidity]

I think the intent was to not take a job, i.e. the suggestion is that if you're a freelancer making low-but-nonzero money, you can just move somewhere with a low cost of living. Of course, you could also move there and get $100k+ job, but that would defeat the goal of not having a boss.

Re:I know folks working in Malaysia...

[Anonymous Coward]

This. I've spent the last 10 years working in South East asia (Malaysia now, but Singapore before that for 3 years). As a white guy with any level of technical smarts you're easily earning 100+, 180 for managers. My coworkers are pleasant, cost of living is very low meaning I've been able to save quite a lot up. I don't see myself moving home so much as I do retiring.

Re:I know folks working in Malaysia...

[St.Creed]

Ofcourse you can't dictate much. But since you have many bosses and there's always another, neither can they. Unless you're starving. Otherwise you negotiate and sometimes put your foot down.

Re:I know folks working in Malaysia...

[JaredOfEuropa]

That's the smart thing to do, and something often overlooked. Saving up, I mean. You can live a decent life doing IT work in the Asia / Middle East, or running a Scuba shop in some tourist trap or whatever... But does it allow you to put away enough for retirement? Especially if you want to return home sometime? (And many expats will want to, sooner or later)

Even the big earners fall into the expat trap, finding themselves more or less stuck in a foreign place, when they find out their savings will only get them a crappy semi detached place back home instead of the luxury downtown apartment with indoor pool and a household staff of 3 they have now. If you fancy some adventure and perhaps a taste of the high life, by all means go for it. But if you stay abroad for an extended period of time, start thinking about settling down there permanently.

Re:I know folks working in Malaysia...

[cowdung]

I moved overseas.. I pay an outrageous $500 per month rent (outrageous because nobody here pays that much). And my earnings this year are about 10x what I made in the US. (I started a company here)

So saving money is not a problem. I also like the life here better.

Re:I know folks working in Malaysia...

[TheRaven64]

I worked freelance for four years before returning to academia (and still freelancing occasionally). You don't have bosses, you have customers. And, if you're living somewhere with a low cost of living (as I was) then you can easily afford to refuse to do business with ones that you don't get on well with. I worked for a variety of companies, and I occasionally decided that some customers were not worth the effort. It also helps to have deadlines that have a reasonable amount of slack in them, so you can decide you can't be bothered to work and go to the beach if you feel like it.

Once you are in can you get out?

[Elijha]

I mean once you go down to earning a livable wage in say Malaysia. Can you move out to a country that costs more to live? You wouldn't save enough to make the move and your clients would probably be miffed at the increased charge rates you pull to do it.

Re:Once you are in can you get out?

[Mathieu Lu]

If you're doing R&D on a project that you later want to commercialize, and you don't need to physically meet clients (or you have someone else who can represent you).. and no kids/family to take care of, you may as well lower your cost of living as much as possible.

The problem is when your business model assumes you'll be in Malaysia forever, then you're stuck.

I lived in Eastern Europe (BG) for 2 years. I would bill as a canadian company, get paid in Canada, then transfer money back. The cost of living wasn't very different though (circa 2002), when you even things out. Living in "poorer" countries looks appealing at first, but when you look further than the cost of food and beer, the costs of housing, health system, education system, social inequalities / security, etc. you usually don't want to stay there too long.

That Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

So if I get paid $10/hour I could afford to live in Malaysia? If I start making $15 or $20 I can work 30 hours?? Wow, that's better than the 37.5 hours I work ... oh wait, real money?? Yeah REAL MONEY??? Make it ten.

What kind of shit did the story submitter smoke? Timothy must be suffering a hard post-St.Paddy's day hangover to have approved this submission ...

Re:That Summary

[0111 1110]

I lived in Malaysia as an expat and I *hated* the weather. You don't even get a break from the heat at night.

To those of you who don't understand this Malaysian guy he's saying that 800 USD/month is *not* a cheap price. You can rent a large house in the suburbs of Kuala Lumpur for that kind of money.

Unfortunately the expats in KL have their own little enclaves where the rental prices are like double what everyone else pays, but they get to live apart from the actual Malaysians, which to be fair, are noisy and don't tend to make the best neighbors. So if you are rich it might be better to pay the ripoff expat prices so that you can live in a quieter environment with other expats. I hate the idea of it though, and I couldn't afford $800/month anyway.

Re:That Summary

[wmac1]

You can have an Ok life with $1000 in Penang or Johor. In KL you may need $1200 for the same.

With $2000 you will have a very good life.

Re:That Summary

[wmac1]

Btw, I had a very clean 3 bedroom apartment at 17th floor looking to sea for $300/month (in Penang).

I bought a second hand car for $3000 and the petrol is $0.7/litter. A good meal is less than $4 (Chicken rice in best Indian restaurants). Big Mac costs $2.6.

With $900 I had a very good life in Penang.

Try this link on for size - thanks, Google!

[n4djs]

http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/unchartered-waters/interview-with-a-digital-migrant-meet-john-hunter/ -- David

Ubatuba, SP Brasil

[Anonymous Coward]

Graduated with my Masters in EE/CS at 23. Got a job that allowed for remote working. Saved up the required $50K to apply for a permanent resident visa as a foreign investor. Opened a shop and hired some local Brasilians to do contract programming work for US firms. Learned Portuguese and became a Brasilian citizen. Quit my job and renounced my US citizenship once I was making enough on my Brasil business. Ignored letter from IRS demanding "exit" tax.

Now do contract work for US firm at US labor rates via sales office in the US, and the money comes to Brasil where it goes farther, and I live on a beach in a Pousada. I don't even speak English well anymore. I'm not even 40 and I could quit work today but the money is too good.

Re:Ubatuba, SP Brasil

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you are what they call a "tax evader." Hope you lose your business license in the US.

Re:Ubatuba, SP Brasil

[Ryanrule]

You belong in jail.

Re:Ubatuba, SP Brasil

[hairyfish]

I don't even speak English well anymore.

What?

Re:Ubatuba, SP Brasil

[mr.mctibbs]

For what, impersonating a corporation?

Re:Ubatuba, SP Brasil

[RevDisk]

Not really. His sales office still has to pay taxes. If he's not a US citizen, he personally doesn't have to pay US taxes.

WORK AT HOME MOTHER EARNS $668686634635/WEEK

[BumpyCarrot]

Link removed.

Top form, timothy.

Malaysia

[Anonymous Coward]

The major caveat to working in Malaysia of course, is that you are in Malaysia.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[Spy Handler]

he's just taking initiative and sticking it to the man.

The man says, "I can scour the globe for the cheapest labor, while selling my product for full price to the peons who are captive because they cannot scour the globe for the cheapest housing/medical care"

Dude says, "Oh yeah? Watch me, I'm moving to where housing/medical care is cheap. F_ You."

I don't see a problem here.

Doing that now in the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have been doing this for about three years now in the United States. Basically, bought property ($6000), built small dome to live in ($3000), went half time at work (4 hours a day doing low stress programming). I make about $17,000 a year and live pretty comfortably on that. The key is having no debts, eliminating as many recurring payments as possible (I pay about $300/mo for all utilities and phone), drive as little as possible and don't eat out much.

I even wrote a blog about it. http://www.minimalintentions.com/search/label/Geodesic%20Dome

My plan was that when I had all this free time I could work on my own projects (of which I have many). Unfortunately turns out that I am pretty lazy so instead I sit in a hammock and read books more... ah well... I still plan to get motivated at some point... eventually.

you could do that in the U.S. too

[Trepidity]

If your goal is just to live cheaply, and you don't have kids, there are plenty of places in the U.S. where you can live ok on $16k/yr. I did it as a grad student. Not in the SF Bay Area, though.

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[phantomfive]

I did something similar for a couple years, and it cost me $24k in the Bay Area. So it's more expensive, but $24k isn't a lot of money.

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[Trepidity]

I guess it depends on what you value. If you value eating out a lot, then sure, I can believe you can live better in Malaysia than the U.S. on the same amount of money. But overall I think, for most Americans, a cheap American city will have an overall higher quality of life for the same amount of money, in part because, well, you don't have to live in Malaysia.

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[Darinbob]

Yep, I used to live on $18K a year as a grad student. It was pretty miserable and I had subsidized student housing. Though the cheap apartment was likely better and the bugs smaller than if I was living in a beach hut in Malaysia.

Seriously, get $100K+ instead. You pay a lot more in expenses but you'll have significantly more than $16K left over after all of it. Then think about Malaysia when you retire.

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[Algae_94]

Alaska will even pay you to live there.

This is basically how it works, but technically the state of Alaska is giving the residents their share of the natural resource money. The residents of the state are the "owners" of the natural resources and the state manages them in the way to bring the most benefit to the residents. This management of natural resources is specifically written into the state constitution.

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[osu-neko]

This is hardly unique to Alaska. Many nations require that when corporations are allowed to extract natural resources from the Commons, they owe at least a percentage of the take to the public. It'd be mind-bogglingly stupid to allow people to take gold/oil/whatever from your land, even if they do all the work, without asking for at least a percentage of the profit, given it was your gold/oil/whatever before you let them take it. Alas, the US federal government is just that stupid... but at least the Alaska state government isn't.

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[superdude72]

That's fine in your 20s, but eventually you need health insurance and a retirement plan. And if you live some place where $16k a year is livable, you'll probably also need a car.

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[drinkypoo]

If your goal is just to live cheaply, and you don't have kids, there are plenty of places in the U.S. where you can live ok on $16k/yr

Most of those places fucking suck. They have no culture that doesn't grow between someone's toes and the weather is agony most of the year and oh yeah, what about health care? If you're on $16k a year you can not afford good health care, and likely no one is providing you with even mediocre stuff for "free". (Which you still have to pay for.)

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[phantomfive]

San Mateo. Cooked for myself, didn't drive much. Found a place with cheap rent ($850 at that time).

Re:you could do that in the U.S. too

[cusco]

My wife and I will be retiring to Peru in a few years, and in most respects our quality of life will be higher there. The meat we buy Sunday morning was eating grass Friday night, and the potatoes were in the ground still on Saturday morning. It's cheaper to pay some farm girl to wash our clothes than it is to buy a washing machine (and hand washed clothes feel better). If we live in town we can pay a taxi 20 cents to go anywhere, or hire him for the whole day for $30. Paying a private clinic is cheaper than just paying our medical insurance in the US. The scenery is incredible, and the people are lovely. If the Internet infrastructure were in place we would consider moving now and working part time for US wages.

Prison Hotel

[number17]

I know a place where you get a free place to stay and a meal every day. Won't cost you a cent to go there either.

Re:Prison Hotel

[Dr_Barnowl]

Yeah, but he got sick of living in the USA.

I work from remote from my vacation home...

[Anonymous Coward]

I manage a team of programmers and data analysts from my vacation home I purchased a few years back. I make six figures and can easily afford the two mortgages I have, both of which are quickly falling because my vacation home is in an area that has a far lower cost of living than my home in the city.

My vacation home is very small, less than 500 sq ft, but comfortably fits my family of four by using small living comforts such as murphy beds. We have everything we need and my family is right next to me enjoying the waterfront property and pool.

I see my employees in person a few times a month when I travel back home to the city and everyone is happy. By having this arrangement we save money, enjoy our vacation home nearly year round, and upper management still sees me on a regular enough basis that I am not out-of-site, out-of-mind.

This was my dream and I am thrilled to do it. While I will never stomp on this guy's dream to live overseas, Malaysia is not the place for me and I prefer to live here in the States. YMMV.

For anyone thinking about it, go for it; it's so worth it.

Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

I have been doing this for about three years now in the United States. Basically, bought property ($6000), built small dome to live in ($3000), went half time at work (4 hours a day doing low stress programming). I make about $17,000 a year and live pretty comfortably on that. The key is having no debts, eliminating as many recurring payments as possible (I pay about $300/mo for all utilities and phone), drive as little as possible and don't eat out much.

I even wrote a blog about it. http://www.minimalintentions.com/search/label/Geodesic%20Dome

My plan was that when I had all this free time I could work on my own projects (of which I have many). Unfortunately turns out that I am pretty lazy so instead I sit in a hammock and read books more... ah well... I still plan to get motivated at some point... eventually.

(repost since I was logged out the first time)

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[neminem]

300$ a month for utilities?! We're paying maybe a hundred, living in a normal condo in a normal city. Maybe 25-30 for electric, 10-15 for gas, 50 for phone and internet. And that's two people; I only had bills like that by myself in the middle of the summer, running the AC all the time. What crazy utilities are you paying for? (I guess there are probably other less exciting utilities, like water/trash/etc. that go into our HOA bill, but I can't imagine they come to 200 dollars a month...)

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[matrim99]

The key is having no debts...

Actually, the key is having no medical problems.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

Including internet and phone ... so $50/mo for electric (not enough insulation), $50/mo for water (have a big garden), $60/mo for dsl, and $100/mo for smartphone... guess that leaves $40 for the usual crap that always seems to happen.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

true... thankful for that.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[neminem]

Ah. Alright, yeah, if you're paying 100/m for a smartphone... to be fair, I didn't include my smartphone - I don't think of it as a house utility - and my girlfriend is paying almost that much for her plan, so if you really need crazy unlimited everything fast all the time, there you go. I'm paying 15 bucks a month for my smartphone (if I use less than a hundred minutes, less than a hundred texts, and less than a hundred mb of data. Which I have no problems doing, personally. Even if you use more, though, you have to use quite a bit to make it up to 100 bucks a month. Ting for the win!)

(And I have heard a lot of people paying a lot more than we do in electricity. I don't totally understand it, but I'm happy about it anyway.)

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

Arkansas... but it is only 1.3 acres. Outside of city limits, but only 10 miles from a town of 30k. Luckily I am friends with a couple of my neighbors so am basically free to use about 20 acres. I probably should have put that community is also pretty important when living cheap. Not necessary, but it sure makes it more fun.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

Well.. I am grandfathered into the verizon unlimited data. Don't really use it though so when the contract is up will go prepaid and save $50/mo. Problem is that carriers are a little limited in this part of the country.

Part of the electric is a installation charge they spread out over a number of years. I think I only use about $18/mo, but I don't complain since they had to run about a half mile of cable to get here. I hope to convert to solar eventually... buying bits and pieces if I find them inexpensively.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[neminem]

Ah, yeah, I suppose I am spoiled for wireless coverage - if Sprint doesn't cover your area, then that cuts out most of your options for prepaid. (I'm just saying, if Sprint *does* cover your area, you should look into Ting. I didn't really feel like paying the standard 50$/m for prepaid, let alone the crazy 90-100 Verizon and others of that ilk charge, so I just didn't have a smartphone for years after everyone else did. When I found out I could be paying 15-25 bucks a month, I jumped on it. I don't work for them in any way, I'm just happy with their service. :p)

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

Thanks for the tip... sprint partially covers this area so it may work.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[HornWumpus]

That would be $60. But you have to demo before you start building.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[neminem]

Neat, glad to spread the word! (It's one of only a small handful of companies I have no direct affiliation with, but like telling people about, just because they do things right.)

I would tell you that if you want a 25$-off-your-first-bill coupon, you could poke me and I'd give you one (it's one of those things where I get a coupon when someone else uses one I generated). Let me know if you want one of those - but I would also say, in the interest of full disclosure, that when I got a phone from them a few months back, I googled around and found similar coupons floating around only for 50 bucks rather than 25. So use one of those instead, if they're still valid. ;)

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you're saving up because eventually you will have medical problems. Everyone does.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

FYI... I thought I would post the webstats from the above comment. Usually my pitiful little blog gets about 30 hits a day. In 30 min I have 557 (359 unique). From just this comment thread... crazy.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

Thanks... will let you know when my contract runs out in about 4 months. I need to find someone with sprint to see if it will work at my house first.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

I know... I am saving a little... but I doubt any amount would be "enough" at the rate things seem to be going. I have basic medical insurance but when the time comes I am sure I will be screwed like everybody else. Probably good that I don't have a family. My main concern is the quality of fertilizer I will make wherever I end up.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

With the rising temperatures in Arkansas I think we may be Arizona in a few years anyway. Property in Canada may soon be fairly temperate.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[ModernGeek]

How did you get the building, electrical, and plumbing inspectors to approve connecting that thing to the municipal systems?

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

I am outside city limits and did all the work myself. Basically you can do this sort of thing out in the country and get away with it. I don't think it would be possible inside a zoned area. At least not without a lot of money and effort.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[Sepultura]

The secret is no ongoing medical issues. If he's like most Americans and he had a serious medical emergency come up he'd probably end up bankrupt anyway. This way he just has less to lose.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[mjwalshe]

Yes what happens if like me the doc says well we need to think about putting you on the kidney transplant waiting list - glad I am in the UK is all i can say

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[PPH]

Obamacare.

Hide your assets well and the gov't will pick up the tab for everything.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

Yea... it is 19ft diameter with a trampoline suspended from the ceiling as a sleeping platform. So fairly small. I have some recent pictures of the outside, but the inside is not as presentable as I would like due to it being both a house and a tool shed. Half of it is tools which means it is pretty much constantly cluttered inside. Hopefully will add a tool shed this year and get all that stuff out. Can send you the outside pics if you want, but it was just another small snowstorm like the last ones. It is comfortable for a single guy without aspirations of being seen by, never mind keeping up with the Jonses. It would suck if there was more than one person living in here that.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

Lucky for me I am pretty much free from assets :)

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[maple_shaft]

The dirty little secret though is that nobody can put a lien against your property for not paying your medical bills. Sure they can hire debt collectors to harass you, and possibly report you to the credit bureau, but they can't legally take your assets.

Most people start getting into trouble when they try to pay their medical bills at the expense of their mortgage or car payments. Then when you are forced to file bankruptcy the medical debts are realized. If you can service your other debts without any problems then you will never have any real problems with medical bills.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[Gavagai80]

I've been living comfortably on less than that in California, there's nothing tricky about it. I rent an apartment, utilities are more like $95/month ($50 broadband, $20 electric, $20 propane, $5 phone [pay as you go smartphones are practically free if you don't call much and use wifi for data]), and since I don't have a commute gas is only maybe $40/month. No need to build domes or eat ramen or rely on public transit or anything. In a cheaper area -- say the midwest, where rent could be ~30% cheaper -- the money will go even further.

Of course, if you have kids to support you'll need a lot more income.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[0111 1110]

I am planning to buy a piece of land in a state where they don't even have a building code. There aren't any building, electrical, or plumbing inspectors and you are allowed to do all of that stuff yourself. The only thing you are not allowed to do is your own septic system. Some states are freer than others.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[gravis777]

Well, all you got to do then is move to Canada or the UK. Land in rural Canada is surely pretty cheap, if you get sick, the government will pay for it, although being that far north, not sure how well satelite internet is going to work.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[bhoult]

No comment on the first question. As far as a shower I just sprayed myself with a garden hose in the front yard for the first couple years. It was fairly miserable in the winter and involved a lot of hyperventilating and gritting teeth. Last year I found that walmart online had a propane inline water heater so now I have an outdoor shower that is quite pleasant.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[cusco]

Sprint partially covers a lot of areas, even in downtown Seattle. Their infrastructure is getting better (three years ago when my employer changed it was abysmal in some areas here), but I still have a number of co-irkers who have to go outside to make a reliable call from non-rural homes.

Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US.

[cusco]

In most municipal areas you can do all the work yourself, with the exception of the connection between your work and the community infrastructure. Replaced all the wiring and plumbing myself in our previous house, but couldn't touch anything on the far side of the breaker box or the water meter without paying someone licensed.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

P.S. The game is never going to change. Welcome to capitalism. Live by it, or stay pissed all your life.

Re:Lese Mageste

[mupuf]

Welcome to France where insulting the president can land you in jail.

Me want

[jones_supa]

I often dream about living in southeast Asia, can you tell me something additional what does it take to relocate there and get an IT job?

Re:Me want

[longk]

A plane ticket and the guts to work without a work permit.

Want the legal route? Not going to happen, unless you become an expat for a US company.

Re:Me want

[qirtaiba]

You just take a day-trip down to Singapore, then re-enter Malaysia with a new stamp.

Re:Me want

[jrumney]

He lives next door to Singapore. Every 89 days, he goes on a bus trip across the bridge. I have numerous friends doing the same up the other end of the country, with regular trips to Thailand (and there are always queues outside the Thai consulate here with people doing the same in the opposite direction - Thailand only allows one month for visa-waiver, so everyone comes to the consulate to get their 3 month extended tourist visas).

Re:Me want

[jrumney]

Want the legal route? Not going to happen, unless you become an expat for a US company.

Work Permits are quite easy to get, at least in Malaysia and Singapore for qualified people with in-demand skills. There are also entrepreneurial visas if you are already independently wealthy and want to start a business that will employ locals. Intra-company transfers are by no means the only way in legally, and US companies are perhaps less well represented than Japanese and European (particularly Germany) companies, most of which also have a presence in US which could be a path in.

Re:Me want

[0111 1110]

Something tells me you've never been to the US. There are parts of the US that are just as safe as Singapore. Singapore isn't any cleaner and it certainly isn't any more 'advanced' whatever that is supposed to mean in this context.

Given the chance I'd rather live in Singapore, but only because the food that I can actually afford to eat is much better there. I do hate the climate though. It's way too hot even at night.

Re:Me want

[0111 1110]

What is a qualified person and what skills are in demand?

China

[longk]

I've been doing this in China for the last 7 years. The good thing here is that live is very scalable. If income is low you relocate to the countryside where you get by quite decently on $100/month and 4M Internet. If income rises you move towards bigger cities where you can spend over $10.000/month and have FTTH if you must.

And by scalability I don't just mean the living expenses. Also moving from place to place is dead easy. I arrive in a place and spend a day if not just a few hours on finding and renting a flat. I'll move in that same night or the next day and have my stuff arrive by truck a few days later.

If you're a remotely political person or care mildly about human rights, China may not be for you. For the average person however who just wants to work the least amount possible and yet have her/his dinner cooked, house cleaned and pussy licked/dick sucked as if she/he were queen/king, it's an awesome place.

Re:China

[Billly Gates]

Problem are the cities are as expensive as US ones. IN Honk Kong a 1 bedroom goes for $4,000 a month!

Re:China

[longk]

Hong Kong is crazy expensive, as are Beijing, Shanghai, etc. But China has much more to offer. In 2nd-tier cities it's still possible to get a decent >60m2 apartment for less than RMB 1000. That's with airco, furnished and often less than an hour by train from HK/SH/BJ if you really feel you want to go there.

Re:China

[Billly Gates]

Do I need to know Mandrin or Cantonisse? What is the pay there compared to the major cities?

Re:China

[TheLink]

Hong Kong is nearly a different country in practice. Compare Life expectancy in Hong Kong with the rest of China (or the cities). Even the politics and law enforcement is significantly different.

Imagine the lovely article

[tchdab1]

So it's ITFA.

Or you can stay in the U.S.

[tgeller]

Just get the hell out of high-cost areas like Silicon Valley.

I moved from San Francisco to small-town Ohio four years ago. I'm a freelance writer and have never met most of my clients face-to-face, so my income didn't change at all.

But now I'm out of debt and living in a huge house I bought for $50,000 and enjoy very much. The money that used to go into such things as $6 drinks and $130 residential parking stickers now goes into travel, entertainment, and investment.

I can't walk to eight sushi restaurants anymore. But I've found my lifestyle's improved quite a bit without having to leave my home country. And if I want to be around that many sushi restaurants, I can fly back to San Francisco whenever I want.

Unless you really want to, why leave the country? The U.S. can be very cheap -- you just have to get away from the coasts.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[Stiletto]

The bad news is... You're in Ohio!

Joking aside, whether or not you can move to a Third World State in the USA and still make a Bay Area salary is highly dependent on your employer. If I went in to work and asked my boss, "Boss, I'd like to move back to rural Pennsylvania, work remotely, and keep making the same salary!" it would take him hours to stop laughing. I suspect this is true for 99% of Bay Area employers out there.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[hotdiggity]

And if everyone does what you did the quiet, scenic inexpensive areas that you moved to will become McMansion-infested suburban holes with high prices and everything else you ran away from. You didn't solve a problem. You're just the leading edge of the problem in a new state and you're crowing about it like it's something great.

I think you underestimate the size of the 'fly-over' parts of the United States of America. And the number of dying small towns that could use an influx of new people.

ps. Tom Geller - fyi, Toronto has all the sushi you could ever want, and is a hell of a lot cheaper to get to!

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[flimflammer]

With that sort of sorry ass logic, moving anywhere it's cheaper is just "ahead of the curve"

That's some ridiculous logic you have there.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[yurtinus]

Not sure where you got that this guy is wealthy... 'Sides, there are more than enough people moving from small town Ohio out to San Francisco that he's in no way upsetting the balance. Fact is more people would want to be in the big cities than in the quiet, scenic small towns.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[AaronLS]

The reason places become so expensive is because every one moves to these big cities from MANY other places. It doesn't work the other way around because there's probably 20 medium sized cities, and a 100 small towns for every big city. If people move out of the big cities, it's going to have a diluted effect.

"will become McMansion-infested suburban holes with high prices" not if they are doing what tgeller did, and buying existing vacant homes that had been sitting on the market(I would guess since it was "huge" and only $50k it had probably been on the market for awhile). He's not creating a demand for anything, he's just consuming the existing supply. I did the same thing, 1600 sq ft for $70k. I could have afforded something 4 times that price, but why? I don't need it. People like tgeller are by no means the cause of the problem you're describing. It's an insult to try and say as much. We are not the kind of people who have 3 jet skis, a boat, and Porsche sitting in our garage, and go eat at expensive restaurants every night so we can flush $100 down the toilet next day. I could buy the empty house across the street and hold on to it for the market to recover and make some money, but why? It's not that much money in the end, a huge hassle to deal with, and in the end does no one any good except making someone pay more for a house than they would have had to. IMO it's the same as domain squatting.

Unless people start doing stupid speculative things like buying up homes to hold on to and flip/resell or only buying expensive homes/condos, prices won't rise sharply.

Before the housing crash there were tons of condos being overbuilt, sitting vacant for months, and no affordable apartments could be had in my area. That problem is a result of the decisions of the housing development industry, not the people that live there. There were jobs available, but just about impossible to move to the area because there was no affordable apartments. It's one thing to talk about regular houses going up in price, but when you talk about condos and McMansions, that's not a problem with housing developers trying to create a market that they will make more profit in, and convince people they need those overpriced things. If people were like tgeller, that would happen less, because we don't buy ridiculous shit we don't need.

Also, developers often don't take into account other developments that are in the works and the impact that will have on the market. A bunch of them see a demand, and all put through development plans that take years, and then because they all built at once there is an over supply.

There's a point where the economies of scale reverse when it comes to population density, at least for some things. There's alot of statistics that show that several moderately sized communities are much more efficient than a single very large one.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[DerekLyons]

Unless you really want to, why leave the country? The U.S. can be very cheap -- you just have to get away from the coasts.

Yes, if you really want to get cheap, the Rust Belt is the way to go - but there are other points on the spectrum.
 
It's not necessarily the coasts that you need to get away from, it's the metropolises. Norfolk is coastal (though nobody with sense would *want* to live there), and is far cheaper than NYC or Boston. Jacksonville (FL) is far cheaper than Miami or Tampa-St Pete. (And the panhandle is cheaper still, but not nearly as cosmopolitan as the First Coast.) Seattle is cheaper than 'Frisco, but across the Sound is cheaper still... etc... etc...

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[Darinbob]

Actually the reason I stick around is because that's where my friends are. I grew up in a small town, but I would hate to move back to one and have no friends.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[Darinbob]

Some people do it. It's risky though. Ie, we had a programmer who lived in rural Montana with a silicon valley salary. Ie, living the good life except for the monthly trips to the office. However if you get laid off then you're stuck trying to find someone else who will let you do that. The reason people are in silicon valley is because it's safe. If you lose a job there are plenty of companies nearby who may be interested in your skills (although too many jobs are not web stuff now). If you never buy a house maybe it's not so bad to have to relocate every few years. Also I think a lot of companies aren't going to pay your way for a flight+hotel for an interview anymore.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[mattack2]

Yes, but you have to live in Ohio!

(Mostly a joke, I don't know what the weather is like there, but I do like that I can wear shorts all year around⦠No, I admit most people don't think it's warm enough to wear shorts all year around!)

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[PPH]

I think you underestimate the size of the 'fly-over' parts of the United States of America. And the number of dying small towns that could use an influx of new people.

There's a reason people fly over these places. Some people like to live in or near a big city with all the amenities (sports teams, a symphony, art galleries, active theater scene, fine dining, etc.).

Movies have been made about small towns that need an influx of people. Those people are never heard from again. Those movies are usually written/directed by the likes of Wes Craven and John Carpenter.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[CodeBuster]

The U.S. can be very cheap -- you just have to get away from the coasts.

If Marisa Myers and the rest of the "Face Time" boosters win the argument against telecommuting, you may not be able to unless your company just happens to open a satellite office in the small town where you want to work and live. Make no mistake, the Yahoo memo was a shot across the bow for all telecommuters out there, not just at Yahoo. If Marisa turns Yahoo around it could mean the end of telecommuting for anyone outside the C-suite.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[Aquitaine]

I took my business and my family out of the Northeast (we started in NYC) to Texas. It was like getting a 10% raise overnight, and I could buy property instead of rent. Property tax is high but it's a consumption tax, so it informed our decision of what kind of house to buy - and it doesn't penalize us for working harder.

Austin is one of the most expensive places in Texas but it's still peanuts compared to NYC or the Bay Area.

Austin may indeed be getting overrun with McMansions but guess who buys McMansions - middle class people moving up because of economic success. You and I may turn up our nose at them but it's a sign that things are happening as I certainly don't prefer halted new construction projects and people underwater on their mortgages.

None of this compares to moving to, say, Thailand, but I enjoy the first amendment.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[Half-pint HAL]

I think you underestimate the size of the 'fly-over' parts of the United States of America. And the number of dying small towns that could use an influx of new people.

Exactly. Remote working is often overexaggerated as being people living alone on a mountain or in a forest, but it can move us back from all living in cities to living in nice mid-sized towns, and there is already enough capacity in towns in most of the developed world.

Re:Or you can stay in the U.S.

[JavaElementOfStyle]

If you move to a mid-western university town you'll get all that and probably more. It will be a bit more expensive than living in the middle of now where. You will also be a quick drive to a major metropolitan area if there are some things you are missing.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[tkrotchko]

"and sticking it to the man"

At $10/hour, I don't think they mind. They say "please stick it to me some more!"

Re:Color me skeptical

[Billly Gates]

I do not see how you can unless this was 20 years ago.

Car insurance $200 a month. Uncle Sam's rent money = 25% of pay = $4000 or $360 a month, Food = $350 a month or = the other 25%. Now rent you are looking at $700 a month. I live in cheap ass Florida and you can not find a good apartment for anything less.

You would need $25,0000 to just break even.

Malaysian craziness

[billstewart]

As you say, the politics there are .... interesting. There seem to be a lot of laws giving Muslims preference over Christians (which might make it unsafe for me to talk about my religious values, though it beats Saudi Arabia.) They've got the anti-drug fanaticism like their neighbors in Singapore (though probably not as bad as Dubai.) They periodically talk about censoring the whole Internet, with the excuse that it's about pornography but the reality that it's about criticisms of their politicians.

The Malaysian food I've had here in California has been great. They like their hot peppers and other spices. I don't care for hot humid weather (I had cousins who lived in Singapore and thought it was worse than US midwestern summers.)

Re:Malaysian craziness

[demonlapin]

I've been in KL in July and it was comparable to the American Southeast. Very hot, very humid. I was OK, because I'm a Southerner, but if you're not used to that climate it would be awful. When I was in high school we had a kid who moved down from New Jersey join the football team. He spent the first week puking his guts out (although in two-a-days in 95+ degree weather with 80+% humidity, he wasn't the only one, just the most consistent one).

OTOH if you could get yourself a place up in the highlands it would be quite pleasant.

Re:Malaysian craziness

[0111 1110]

Hot peppers? Are you sure the food was Malaysian? I used to live there and there wasn't a lot of spicy food. Unless you have a very low standard for 'spicy'. Great food yes, but spicy not really.

Re:Color me skeptical

[phantomfive]

You have expensive taste. For my car, insurance is like $215 for six months, and I could cut it down more if I reduced the coverage levels Also, if you're making $25k, taxes are a lot less than 25%.

Also, if you cook for yourself, you can get with good food for $150 a month. Of course, dependent on how well you cook.

Argentina

[lexluther]

About 7 years ago, I moved from California to Argentina for work. I had a degree in CS and had worked professionally as a Java dev for three years. I couldn't get any work in the US so I decided to brush up on my spanish and see if I could find a job down there.

After arriving in Argentina, I translated my resume and started looking for work by finding the equivalent of Monster.com (bumeran.com). It took about 3 weeks, but I got interviews at both Sony and IBM. IBM wanted to send me to Canada for consulting because I spoke english :). Since that wasn't the goal, I went with Sony. Lots of the labor in these places is not actually employed by the large corporation, but by a "placement" service. This company paid me $600/month for full-time employment. I had been making around 70k in the US, but in argentina the 10x paycut was manageable. Indeed, I was making 1/2 of some of my coworkers - because I wasn't legally employed, the placement company paid me less, but paid me in cash.

The experience was fantastic. There, 9-5 actually meant 9-5 - very limited flexibility in terms of hours and what I could work on, but it was okay, I was doing it more for the concept. The engineers were all excellent and my American education didn't either disadvantage or help -- we all were pretty up on the lastest java techniques.

After about 4 months, I decided that this glimpse into the future was sufficient so I returned to the US to do a PhD.

Heh I told a co-worker this

[TheCarp]

A co-worker/long time friend (longer than we have worked together) recently became a full time remote employee as he moved his family back to where he and his wife are from to be near their extended family for child care (day care is very expensive, they figured she was working basically just to pay for day care)

I told him...if they are going to let you go full time remote.... fuck the south, move to India! Take your big American professional, solid middle to upper middle class salary, and up and move to India. They could live like kings and come back with a retirement. Shit, I know a guy who lived there for 6 months without cooking for himself, on less per week than I got from unemployment when I was between jobs.

Re:Color me skeptical

[subanark]

I'm making much more than 16K a year, but I don't spend anywhere near what I make.

I'm not sure what kind of car you have that requires $200 per month. Maybe you mean per year? And if needed I could ditch my car. I really only use it for shopping on the weekends, and I could just take a bus instead. Food for me runs around $140 per month. Rent is $365 per month (screw good apartments, they are too expensive). Internet is $50 (yea I can't really get a better price in the town I'm in), cell phone is $35 a month. All in all, I spend less than $1000 per month (except on Christmas).

Balkans

[PopeRatzo]

If you can make $15/hr remotely, I'd suggest Montenegro. Find a place near the sea, you got it made. You might have to work at getting a really great broadband deal, but there are some to be had.

If you're single, the women there are beautiful and have sexy accents, you've got the sea and off-season the tourists go away and you can really enjoy the good life.

You're a short hop from shopping in Italy, skiing in the Alps and you're still not in the EU (yet). Learn to play tuba in a Balkan horn band. Drink lots of coffee and slivovitza. Go out in your backyard and pick fresh figs for breakfast.

Even if swimming in crystal-blue seas is not your idea of fun, you can set yourself down in a sidewalk cafe and watch one Mila Jovovic after another walk by. And there's none of the snobbiness of Western Europe.

Re:Balkans

[niftydude]

I was with you up until you mentioned the slivovitza. That old plum brandy is the devil.

Re:Balkans

[PopeRatzo]

I find there's something about starting a new life in some cheap country which is kind of self-abasing.

Don't know what you mean by "cheap" but Montenegro had a sophisticated civilization when the folks in North America were still running around in loincloths chasing buffalo.

You can visit churches from the 13th century and ruins from the Ottoman Empire and before (way before).

And the sexy girls in Montenegro speak very good English.

Expats in China even have a phrase for it: "loser back home".

Tell you what, an American computer geek who's living in a beautiful house on the seaside working 20 hours a week remotely would not be considered a "loser back home" by his friends back in the 'States who have to share a 500 sq ft studio apartment with some other geek making $15/hr, working 60 hours a week just to get by. That expat wouldn't be considered a "loser" at all. He'd be considered a hero.

But make no mistake, it takes a little courage to get up and move. It's not for everyone. Some people just don't have what it takes to strike out on their own that way.

In either case they failed in the game they were born into

If you believe you have to stay in the "game you were born into" in order to succeed, that means you've already lost the game.

Re:Balkans

[betterprimate]

Thanks for this, PR. I've been working remotely in South and Latin America for the past four years but have since been reminiscing of my travels throughout the Mediterranean. The only thing that was preventing me from relocating was EU visa. Your input is invaluable.
As an ex-pat working remotely, there's one thing I can't stress enough: your network back home. Don't put all your eggs in one basket; if work dries up from one source, you should have at least half a dozen other options to tap.

Re:Balkans

[0111 1110]

Well if that's what you planned to do and it's working out as well as you imagined, good for you. But personally, I find there's something about starting a new life in some cheap country which is kind of self-abasing.

Self-abasing to move to a 'cheap' country? What country are you from that makes you so superior and high and mighty? Being born in a certain geographical location does not make you any better than people who were born elsewhere.

And money does not define your worth as a person in any meaningful way. Human beings can be so sickening.

Honestly I'd rather live in a country with nice people in it than wherever you live. You wouldn't know where those places are because you've probably never left the country you were born in.

Re:Balkans

[Ogi_UnixNut]

Well, yeah it is nice, but if you want to have a family there, education is a big problem.

Especially as many of the local universities in the Balkans, despite being pretty good, are not recognised in the west, which makes it hard for your kids to get a western job that pays you to live so well in the Balkans.

Also, the security situation next door (Serbia/Kosovo) is ... untenable to say the least. So in future that may cause problems.

Also, the legal structures... there is not so much protection of your investments. Lots of corruption, and ambiguity (especially amongst property ownership and rights).

Apart from that, the Balkans are a lovely place, and if I ever manage to find a job that allows me to work remotely for good money, I will go back there (At least until I decide to have kids).

(The points above are gathered from my friends and family, who still live down there. As well as my research into the possibility of returning).

Re:Balkans

[RevDisk]

Serbia/Kosovo has calmed quite a bit. I spent well over a year there. I did love my time in the Balkans, especially Bulgaria. Single, it'd be epic. Married? It would be interesting. As for education, it's also not that bad. Especially if you supplement your kids' education with homeschool material. Tutors can be economically viable. I hired an assistant history professor to be a guide when I was in Sofia. I liked history, the rates were decent, and I got a hell of a good traveling lecture on local history.

Re:Balkans

[PopeRatzo]

Especially as many of the local universities in the Balkans, despite being pretty good, are not recognised in the west

I don't know about Montenegro, but my wife's degree in Math from Serbia was recognized when she completed her PhD here in the US.

I own a small house in Sutomore, so I'm talking from experience when I say how nice it is there. We also have an apartment in Belgrade.

There are certainly plenty of problems there, but there is measurable progress. The recent resurgence of nationalism, for example. But if you've got a steady income, it's a pretty nice place to be. However, don't expect the locals to immediately embrace you with open arms. It takes a while before they start to warm to outsiders. It's not for everyone, but it's worth being on the list of places to think about.

Re:Balkans

[Ogi_UnixNut]

It may have calmed, but until a lasting solution is found, it will be able to flair up at any moment. It just isn't tenable to have a province partly recognised as an independent country, and still held as part of another country.

At best it will end up like Nagorno-Karabakh, a small semi-recognized state with little future. Neither side could enter the EU (as since admitting in Cyprus, they have little appetite for taking in more countries where nobody agrees where the border is).

In the middle situation, you could have localised clashes , with EU/NATO having to have a long term presence to keep the two sides separate. Costly, and still not fixing the underlying issue. Essentially not so much "at peace" as much as "lack of war" situation.

At worst you could see a return to full scale hostilities, which, depending no whether the big powers decide to play geopolitics with the issue, could end up looking like a bunch of minor skirmishes, or like Syria now.

Still, the two sides are negotiating, which while I feel hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of actually changing anything, it is better than blowing each others brains out.

Glad you had a nice time though. If you love history then you'll love the Balkans, pretty much everything is history. Even the current fight over Kosovo goes back some 800 years. There is so much history, there are entire university departments dedicated to it. Must be heaven to a history buff ;)

Re:Balkans

[Ogi_UnixNut]

Well, I remember when I looked into applying to do an undergraduate course in Belgrade, I was discouraged to find that most employers in the EU would not recognise it.

Essentially I would need to do an undergraduate course there, and then use that to get into a EU University (possible, but not guaranteed), from which I would have the credentials to get a job. Essentially adding 3 years (and quite a bit of cost) to my education.

So for now I stuck with being in a EU country, as that is recognised everywhere, even there.

Interesting, if I may ask, How difficult was it to buy a house in Montenegro and Belgrade? How much did it cost?

I remember when my parents bought a flat in Belgrade, when it came to sell it there was a problem, as some original documentation were missing. Essentially the paper saying we owned the flat was worthless, and we were close to losing the whole thing with no compensation. After a few thousand euro's and much arguing with lawyers and the government we got new documents affirming us as owners, and allowing us to sell.

However the whole thing put me off. The idea I could buy a property, then find out that I don't actually own it because a document went missing 10 years ago due to the wars/upheaval wasn't really tempting. Especially as you could be looking at tens of thousands of euro's lost.

What is wrong with the recent resurgence of Nationalism? Having spent so much time there, I found the level of nationalism to always have been there. It never really subsided. It doesn't seem to have altered much really. It may be more visible, but it isn't new nor unexpected.

Oh, and the bureaucracy, I remember getting my passport renewed. Unless you bribe someone, or know someone high up personally, it is so painful and slow, that getting my teeth pulled out without anesthetic would be preferable.

For me the main issue is finding a job that would allow me to work from abroad, yet pay me a western salary. My current employer is unwilling to let me do that as of yet, but I keep asking.

Still, I am very glad you are enjoying it, and may I welcome you to the completely crazy world that is the Balkans and its peoples :o) (I think we are an awesome lot once you get to know us, but then again I am biased :) )

Re:Color me skeptical

[Fjandr]

I currently live in a decent-sized US city and make do on about $12,000/year.

Car insurance is $500 per 6 months with comprehensive and 100/300k coverage. Food is barely over $100/month for two because we cook. Rent is under $500 for a two-bedroom apartment.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[mcl630]

Nowhere in TFA does the guy say he's making $10/hr, only that he could survive on $16K/yr, which the author extrapolated to $10/hr. The guy talks about traveling several weeks a year, which he doesn't include in the $16K, so presumably he's making significantly more than that.

include HOA, prop tax, insurance, all utilities

[peter303]

These are all living costs you must pay each month where you live. Some places fold in a lot of the insurance and ultilities into the HOA fee, while others pay separately.

And I include recurring information/communication/entertment fees as utilities, e.g. landline, cable, smartphone, internet, newspaper, netflix, gaming subscriptions, etc. For some people this is their second highest monthly costs.

Forgot to mention...

[brillow]

Malaysia sucks. Seriously, detention without trial? Death penalty for drugs? State religion? High risk of infectious disease? Monarchy? Sex-trafficking?

NO. THANKS.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

Then swim over to the Philippines. No death penalty, no monarchy, but more drugs and sex with risk of infectious diseases. Mostly christian like the USA. Real fun place if you don't mind the random kidnapping and shooting, which may or may not make you feel more at home. Gun laws stricter than the US but lots of loose firearms.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Anonymous Coward]

Trust me, I'm a malaysian. The monarch here don't have power. They are just symbol. The law here are justas flawed as everywhere. The malaysian internet community really hate the current goverment. And I will really be surprise if the opppsition do not win this time.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[osu-neko]

I have a friend who lives in the Philippines. I considered moving there myself. Convinced myself during a Minnesota winter that it'd be a good idea. Then in the heat and humidity of the next Minnesota summer that I could barely stand, I realized moving to the Philippines would be a monumentally bad idea. What I need is a good cheap nation with a climate same as or cooler than Minnesota. Seriously, I don't know how people can live in those hot nations. You can always add more layers in the winter, but even in a clothing-optional nation (if any exist) there's only so far you can go in the summer. Cold is much easier to deal with than heat...

Wonder what the cost of living is like in Iceland these days...

Meh, I eventually decided if I was just smart about it, I can live cheap in the US...

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Ubi_NL]

Detention without trial....

You mean like in Gitmo, and wasn't Manning still in jail after 3 years?

Re:Forgot to mention...

[ryzvonusef]

If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion and avoid the people, you might better stay home. — James Michener

EVERY where you go, you will find tons of objectionable behaviour, norms and social mores. You will often be saying "we didn't do it like this back home" or "it wasn't like this back home". It's called cultural shock for a reason.

But's that's price you pay. No one is saying you must accept that...merely that if you can't accept it, it would be suitable for you to stay home.

The Person in the article could accept it, hence Malaysia.

Re:Color me skeptical

[flimflammer]

I live decently on $17,736 in San Diego, California. I lucked out and my house only has a mortgage of $560 and live in a good neighborhood that's close to Qualcomm Stadium. How in the hell do you pay $200 a month for car insurance? Do you frequently get in accidents?

Re:Color me skeptical

[yurtinus]

I think you're doing it wrong. I insure three cars and spend less than $100 per month - if needed I could drop back to a single motorbike for $100 per *year*. Could eat quite well for $200 or so per month (cooking is fun). It would be trivial to find a room to rent for $400. Maybe toss in an extra $100 slop fund for recurring expenses.

'Course, my budget looks absolutely nothing like that now, but it was a good deal slimmer than that through college.

Re:Color me skeptical

[Trepidity]

Some of those definitely seem high to me.

Car insurance: I've never paid $2400/yr for car insurance! Even when I was early-20s and had higher rates, I paid more like $1000/yr. Now I pay less.

Taxes: I don't see how you could possibly pay an effective 25% if you make $16k/yr. Something closer to 5-10% is a lot more likely. The biggest is payroll taxes of 7.6% off the top. But then after that, you take a standard deduction ($6100 for single) and the personal exemption ($3900), so your first $10,000 of income is tax free. The remaining $6000 is taxed at the lowest federal rate, 10%. So that's another $600. Overall you pay 7.6% x $16,000 + $600 = $1800, i.e. an effective 11.25%. Maybe add something for state, depending on your state (I lived in Texas, so add $0).

Food: Dear god, $350/month? What are you buying? I spend about $200-$250/month now, and I have a middle-class salary, making no effort to be frugal. I spent more like $100/mo when I was a grad student. Are you eating steak daily or something?

Rent: Really depends on where you live. In Texas there is no need to pay $700 rents. Nor in Pittsburgh.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[SteveFoerster]

Dear idiot who went to Malaysia so you could live well working for for peanuts: You are fucking everyone else you left behind, by lowering their wages a bit, and if you come back you will find a much worse country. I assume you are working from Malaysia with US clients, of course, not Malaysian clients who wouldn't pay for $10/hour if that what it takes to live a king there. You are doing it backwards.

He's happy, therefore he's not doing it backwards. What, is he supposed to live some completely different lifestyle than he'd prefer just to please someone like you who calls him names?

Costa Rica & Panama

[Tenebrousedge]

$6k a year is doable. $16k a year would be quite pleasant. I would avoid the capital or other large cities. Actually getting a work permit or visa to either country is difficult to impossible, but I know people in both countries who have been there for decades on a tourist visa. Do note, this tends to limit your options for local employment; it's far better to work online.

There's essentially no native culture (or cuisine) in either place, "post-colonial" about sums it up. The police are nice enough but underpaid, the laws are enforced relatively arbitrarily and generally not in favor of extranjeros. If you're running a business, [a] congratulations for getting through the bureaucracy to accomplish this, and [b] you may from time to time expect to have laws about licenses and restrictions enforced against you that your (Tico) competition does not. I'm not sure whether I can really say that corruption was common, but it's probably fair to say that people were understanding about dealing with the laws and regulations -- or avoiding that, if necessary. I don't really consider this a bad thing, but if you have the expectation that the rule of law is going to be universally or rigidly applied, you may be disappointed.

The weather is beautiful, it's not terribly expensive to get to and from either country (at least, from the US), English is spoken by a good percentage of the population, utilities are cheap and reliable, health care is extremely affordable (medical tourism is common), internet is not that fast but widely available, and of course, knowledgeable tech workers are in high demand. In Costa Rica the beer is not good and relatively expensive, in Panama you can get two beers for $1. Computers are available, but expensive. It's probably going to be a good idea to buy in the US and work out a way to get it. I've heard both good and bad things about the mail system; I'd call it generally reliable, but the paranoid might want to find other means of receiving packages. If you end up going back and forth to the states a lot, you can make good money on the side bringing electronics back with you.

Panama is by far the cheaper of the two countries, you would probably be able to get by on less than $6k annually. I didn't like it quite as much because, at least in the places I frequented, cocaine was both common and extremely cheap there. That's fine for those who like that sort of thing, but generally I don't think it does much good for the community. Drug laws in both countries are sparingly enforced.

Roads are generally better in Panama; the country has a lot more money due to that whole canal thing. I can't recommend driving in Panama City, or anywhere in Costa Rica. Cars are absurdly expensive, and paradoxically people don't care about the lines on the road, the blinky things above them, the relative speed and velocity of other vehicles, or pedestrians.

Fun Facts: there are no addresses in Costa Rica. There are no roads connecting Central America with South America.

Re:Color me skeptical

[Billly Gates]

Well one the housing boom inflated home values rents went up 200% and they never went down!

I used to live in Alaska too and the rent was $750 a month for a bedroom in a basement was the norm. It seems everywhere it is that high. Maybe if you owned a home bought in 2000 you have not seen the cost inflation. Today it costs $900 a month for a 1 bedroom apartment in most cities even if a house is cheaper. Why? Because the landlords bought in during hte housing boom and have mortgages to pay. With people being foreclosed upon there is a line and people lining up to pay that much for a shitty place!

Maybe in rural Alabama but in the real world everywhere it costs higher and higher each year as the landlords try to make a quick buck knowing you do not have the 25% down for a home for half the price.

Re:Color me skeptical

[schlachter]

U don't NEED a car. Get a scooter. But still, car insurance shouldn't cost more than $50/month.
U can rent a room in a house/apt for $300-400/month in most places in the US.
U can pay $200/month for food.

U pay pretty much no taxes at $16k/yr

Re:Lese Mageste

[ladislavb]

Any country that welcomes you to its shores by photographing you and taking your finger prints, then forces you to either go through a "naked" scanner or lets big guys touch your genitals, is absolutely off the list of any freedom loving individual.

China has very dirty air and a not so safe rail sy

[Joe_Dragon]

China has very dirty air and a not so safe rail system.

Re:Color me skeptical

[Algae_94]

You've got the taxes wrong. $16k/year is in the 15% tax bracket (the first $8925 is only taxed at 10%). Add in the standard deduction of $5950 and you're paying taxes on just $10k (that's not counting any other possible deductions). The tax tables say you'd owe $1039 to the IRS. That's a quarter of what you estimated.

I'll also back many of the other replies that your insurance estimate is also high. I can get car insurance for less than half your $200 a month. That's as a single guy, not too favorable a demographic for insurance.

This is stupid.

[Jiro]

1) It's not clear from the article if he actually makes 16000 a year or if he just lives on it and puts away the rest, but I really hope he makes enough to save. And a low salary may be enough to live in Malaysia without letting him save well for the future.
2) Living in Malaysia means you are living far away from relatives.
3) Living in Malaysia also means your kids get Malaysian educations (he mentions a 3 bedroom apartment so he might have kids), your town is policed by Malaysian police, and that if you get sick you get Malaysian medical treatment, etc. And even ignoring the question of it not being a democracy, what kind of legal treatment does a non-citizen get the next time he forgets to bribe a government official?
4) I doubt he speaks Malaysian. Yes, English is a second language, but not speaking the primary one puts him at a distinctive disadvantage.
5) What kind of a social life does he have when all the people around him are from a different culture except a few expatriates? And related to that, what does he know about Malaysian customs? Yeah, they like white foreigners, but "liking" someone for such reasons is a lot different from being comfortable with them.
6) Any company willing to let him work remotely from Malaysia is probably willing to hire a native Malaysian, so his job's days may be numbered.
7) If he does lose his job, how's he going to find another one? Go remotely search for another company willing to hire someone living in Malaysia at American prices, and fly to America for the job interview?
8) What does he think of the food? Is there anything on TV he wants to watch? (That sounds insignificant, but moving to a place where there is for all practical purposes no TV would be a downside for lots of people.)
9) What's he going to do if the government changes in a hostile way? They could nationalize his bank account. They could elect Islamic fundamentalists. They could just start a program of blaming the country's ills on foreigners.

Re:Lese Mageste

[PPH]

Yes dear? Just posting some stuff on Slashdot. The garbage? I'll get right on it.

No, I didn't say anything. Not even a mumble, I swear!

You don't have to go that far.

[pubwvj]

You don't have to go that far. Just move to a third-world state like Vermont where the cost of living is a tiny fraction of what it is in the cities. No, I'm not talking about the ritzy places like Burlington, Norwich, Montpelier and Woodstock. I'm talking the real Vermont, the other 99.9%.

Wait, forget I ever said that. I don't want everyone moving here! :)

Re:You don't have to go that far.

[rmdingler]

Amen. I have relatives there, and if I could make a living there remotely, I would make the move. In the Northeast Kingdom, 4-500 bucks a week is the average paycheck.

Re:You don't have to go that far.

[RevDisk]

I do love Vermont and New Hampshire. But yea, jobs can be interesting to find...

Re:You don't have to go that far.

[Zatchmort]

*chokes* Don't get me wrong, I love living in Vermont, but I would never describe Burlington as "ritzy".

Smart ones don't

[rsilvergun]

Restaurant biz? You bet. Long hours shitty pay. You sir, need to become a Capitalist. Buy some property and become an Owner (tm). Start your day at 11 am (ish) and end it by 3 pm.

Seriously. CNN had an article on "Entrepreneurs". There where 4 or 5 folks running restaurants and killing themselves. The rest of them got a cash infusion from family / friends / contacts and most of their "work" was chatting people up on the phone while their kids played soccer. Must be nice.

Western Panama (Chiriqui)

[aapold]

Western Panama has the upland climate of Costa Rica with the better roads.. David is the provincial capital but the cooler highland cilmates of Boquete, Volcan, Cerro Punta, Bambito, etc are much nicer if the humidity bothers you. You end up with highs in the 70s, lows in the 50s pretty much year-round. Even up there you aren't that far from the beach. The main problem is that it has been pretty much discovered by expats so the prices have gone up considerably.

Among the big advantages in Panama for US - the country basically uses US dollars for its currency, no exchanging needed. They do mint their own coins in the same sizes and denominations (they will even work in the same vending machines), you almost forget to swap out your coins when you get back. The bills are US bills. This dates back to the canal construction.

However, the vast majority of the business and work to be done there is in the capital, which is at sea level and much hotter and more humid. You also have access to better medical care there than in the "interior" (which is what they call anywhere that isn't in the middle of the country since odds are that is where you arrive). Most of the work in the highland regions is agricultural or tourism-based.

as far as your note about no roads, the Darien Gap (Panama's eastern province and the adjacent area of Columbia) you do not want to go there. That gap is the largest tract of jungle they have left, and anywhere a road is built the jungle disappears within a certain distance as people move in to those lands. The areas that remain (out past Yaviza or so) are dangerous, FARC sometimes operates there, and people have been kidnapped attempting to traverse it.

Re:Started company, hired employee, moved to Bosto

[dr2chase]

If you moved to Boston, you kinda missed the "move to someplace cheap to live" part.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[jrumney]

I assume you are working from Malaysia with US clients, of course, not Malaysian clients who wouldn't pay for $10/hour if that what it takes to live a king there.

$10 an hour would be quite low for any type of contract IT work in Malaysia. And he is living in Johor, so could easily take work from Singapore, where incomes are much higher.

Bumiputera: Institutionalized Racism

[Anonymous Coward]

The government exploits the fact that a lot of Malaysians are jealous of the Chinese for being successful (which happens because they worked hard at building businesses and such) , so they put up huge campaigns of national identity and such to encourage hatred of the Chinese. However, they government doesn't really do anything about it (they can't - said Chinese businesses pay a good amount of tax and employ a lot of Malays)

On the contrary, they can and they do. Following the May 13th pogroms, the government instituted the Bumiputera policy. As a pro-"Sons of the Soil" policy, it is also instutionalizes defacto anti-Chinese, anti-Indian policies into law.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[jrumney]

Medical care in Malaysia is not cheap (he says he has cheap medical insurance, but we don't know what his insurance covers). And in parts of Malaysia, including Johor where he is living, housing isn't either (I'm sure there are plenty of 3 bedroom houses available in the US for less than the $800/month he is paying, and he doesn't say what it would cost him to purchase rather than rent). Food is though, and if you're healthy and single you can live off very little.

Re:Thanks for nothing

[rmdingler]

So we're okay with multi-national corporations outsourcing labor and manufacturing to the country with the lowest bid, but when one man does it for a lower cost of living he is the devil incarnate? No dog.

Visa and working rules

[jampola]

Please remember, in places like Thailand (and similarly Malaysia), this is against the law unless a work permit (Yes, even if the "work" is based overseas) is granted to which is near impossible if the same work can be done by a Thai. Flaunting this MAY result in you being kicked out not after paying an hefty fine.

Yes, the laws are stupid but they're only trying to protect people like you taking jobs away from people like them!

Re:Thanks for nothing

[horza]

Despite only you thinking he is an idiot, and everybody else realising how smart he is...

Why not create a national free health service in the USA? Stop the political corruption through political lobbying? Create a police force that doesn't molest passengers at the airport and pepper spray random citizens? You get these things on track, and couple it with your freedom of speech and religious tolerance, and the moment he starts thinking about raising a family he will be back and a US tax payer before you can say "Do you want Sambal with that?"

Some misguided guilt-trip at somebody who doesn't care won't work. Get positive!!!

Phillip.

70 hours a week

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Missing option: People who love their startup. I would put more hours into it if I could. I do what I love, and It's building my future, why the hell not?

Re:70 hours a week

[BasilBrush]

Then what are you doing reading and responding to comments on Slashdot? You could be working!

Related article

[rover42]

This article is on retiring abroad, but it contains some material relevant to the remote-work-overseas scheme: http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Retiring_abroad

Re:Color me skeptical

[demonlapin]

In the rural South you can live quite comfortably on under $10k/year. Buy a large freezer, learn to hunt (there's plenty of public land you can use), plant a garden - your grocery bills can be almost nil. Get a cheap used trailer, put a little money in insulation to cut the electricity bill and buy yourself an in-ground storm shelter (absolutely mandatory if you plan to live in a trailer). For a few thousand in up-front costs you can really cut waaaaaaay back. Broadband access can be a problem but 4G is available in a lot of surprisingly remote areas and wireless could be a valid choice if you don't transfer a lot of data.

BTW, totally aside and wishing someone had told me this when I was poor: shop garage sales in nice neighborhoods, especially for clothes. You'll get very high quality stuff for almost nothing. Go to high-end clothing stores and ask them for the contact info for the salesmen that call on them - those guys all sell off their samples at ridiculously low prices, and if you happen to wear a 34-36 waist and a 42-44 chest you're set. If the local Junior League runs a thrift shop, you have hit the gold mine - you can get designer clothing at rock-bottom pricing. Some of it will never have been worn.

Re:Lese Mageste

[horza]

So that is the US, Britain and France...

You could also mention that when you go into the naked scanner you need to put your hands on your head in the submission pose of somebody surrendering. Way more humiliating than having some guy touch your genitals in one respect. We win two world wars, then you see a stream of British people being marched like cattle with hands on their heads :-(.

Actually in all 3 countries all the customs officials were quite polite about doing the manual search, and I didn't feel at all they were penalising me for insisting. I only went through major hubs, though, where you might get a little bit more respect.

Phillip.

Re:HUEHUEHUEHUEHUE

[Guppy]

Shoop Da Whoop: Imma Chargin' MALAYSIA!

Thailand

[AndyCanfield]

I've been in Thailand (& Laos) for twenty years. Now most of my work is done through the Internet, even for local companies. Living costs are low. A Company puts money into my bank, the ATM card takes it out. Work at home means long hours with lots of breaks. Rural Thailand is wonderful. I jumped ship from California in 1990 and have never regretted it. But I live a Thai lifestyle, not an American lifestyle. More information at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72291163/index.html . Cold water baths, no air conditioning, travel by bicycle or motorcycle or bus. No (English) computer books to speak of; all technical information through the Internet. I still read the news, but don't much care what that idiot government in Washington does. Eighteen years ago I decided I'd rather die in Thailand than live in the United States. I have had seven children; my children have had five mothers. Every time I say this some lady in the crowd raises her hand and shouts "NUMBER SIX! NUMBER SIX". Two kids are in America; the other five were all born in The Land Of Smiles. Sometimes I have a little bit of money, so I can eat. Sometimes I have a lot of money; some Thai lady comes along, and goes away, and I have a little bit of money left, so I can eat. No problem, no worry, no stress.

Re:Thailand

[Pharoah_69]

I agree that Thailand is a beautiful country. I was there on project for 4 months and had the time of my life there. No man will go lonely there, at least in Pattaya. The Thai people were very friendly and the food was extremely spicy. Then again, I stayed at a resort hotel and I saw some of the worst poverty in the streets. Oddly enough, since I was there on project, I could only stay there a month at a time so I was sent to Malaysia and back. But after traveling the world, I've found that each place has its pro's and con's. In summary, if you are with a solid company within a good industry, you'll have a better quality of life.

Re:Lese Mageste

[osu-neko]

Any country where insulting the leader is illegal should be absolutely off the list for any freedom loving individual.

But it's great living in a country where insulting politicians is kosher but you could be sent to federal prison for telling people about the nifty uses of a prime number?

Culvert

[stoicio]

In the 90's I made good money programming for $9 per hour while living in a culvert.
I just had to make sure I 'Looked' like I had showered (or something), for meetings.

Now, I'm middle aged and have a much larger culvert with some boards to keep
my stuff off the water when it floods.

Good times.....

16000 USD

[manu0601]

This is around the minimal legal wage in France. Many people live with that. It is not easy not comfortable, but is quite common.

before you kiss Motherland good-bye

[itchybrain]

"Alcohol is not cheap, that isn’t an issue for me but may add hundreds of dollars a month to expenses for some people." - John Hunter.

There. That should scatter half the slashdot crowd.

I agree that life can be rather comfortable with $1300/mth in Malaysia. Here are a few more to consider:.

- if you wish to buy Western products, say a Haagan Dasz ice-cream or a PS3, expect to pay the US equivalent of the cost. Also, PS3 games do not come down in price, even for old titles.
- unless if you get your movies through the internet, all original copies of DVD undergo some censorship if you buy them locally.
- Keep in mind that the bandwidth in Malaysia is not great (and probably has some data cap).
- not every place in Malaysia is disabled-access friendly.

Re:before you kiss Motherland good-bye

[jrumney]

Alcohol is not cheap compared with some neighboring countries like Thailand, or compared with the price of food. But it isn't much different to prices in the more affluent parts of Europe, or the US. As for DVDs, where do you buy original copies of DVDs in Malaysia? As far as I can tell, the movie companies have adopted a policy of supporting piracy by releasing only VCDs officially in this part of the world.

Re:before you kiss Motherland good-bye

[itchybrain]

I based my comment on the following observations:

(1) One can buy originsl PS3 games from the Sony store, so it is conceivable that the store should also carry original Blu-ray/DVD.

(2) It would be a real stretch to say that at this day and age, one cannot find an original copy of DVD in Malaysia. Here is a link to get you started (it's a forum on blu-ray). Good luck.

Re:before you kiss Motherland good-bye

[jrumney]

Yes, you can find a small selection if you look hard amongst the VCDs in the likes of Speedy, but check the prices in the link. RM149 for a DVD? That's US$50! Or to put it in perspective, 3 days wages for the guy working behind the counter in the shop. Who in their right mind is going to pay that, when any downmarket mall is full of shops selling higher quality Bluray rips for RM10?

Another option?

[robbiedo]

Live in the US and make $120k/year? That would be my preferred option.

Consider Taiwan

[GoCats1999]

After living in Silicon Valley for almost 10 years, we moved to Taiwan for 4 months (just got back), while I continued working as an independent contractor for US-based companies doing custom web and iOS software development.

In a word, it was *awesome*.

You could definitely make a very decent living in Taiwan, especially outside of Taipei (Taipei could still work pretty well, but rent prices are significantly higher than the rest of the country.)

Living expenses are incredibly cheap, especially for a first-world country. Bonus, If you can qualify for an ARC (Alien Resident Card), then their nationalized health care is really cheap.

We had a beautiful (albeit on the small side) 2 BR/1 BA apartment in the heart of Kaohsiung (Taiwan's second largest city) for $400/month. Utilities at around $75/month. Wife and I both had unlimited 3G on our iPhones for $30 per month each — oh, and that *includes* UNLIMITED tethering (something you'll never get with AT&T or Verizon).

Food in Taiwan is incredible... both in taste, as well in cost. We never cooked, always eating out every breakfast, lunch and dinner to the tune of about $15 per day total.

Taxis can take you pretty much anywhere for about $2-$4 per trip... or you can take the subway for about $1 per ride.

All told, we were spending about $1500 per month.

However, despite its benefits, there are definitely some downsides. Taiwan (like most of East Asia) has notoriously poor air quality. Lack of emission control standards on vehicles make it very difficult to walk (let alone jog or work out) outside without feeling a bit nauseous. When walking around outside, you will see people wearing masks *everywhere*.

Also, unlike other countries in East Asia with a stronger western influence, it is very difficult to get around Taiwan without being able to speak Chinese. While there are some people who do speak very basic conversational English, it's a bit more on the rare side, so trying to get around or order at restaurants can be challenging. It tends to be a bit easier in Taipei, but then, you'll end up paying more in living expenses.

But if you are able to get through some of those challenges, it can be an incredibly rewarding experience. We are already trying to figure out how and when we can get out there again!

Re:Consider Taiwan

[unixisc]

How good are you at learning languages? Learn Mandarin, and the major downside would be overcome. In fact, that would even enable you to live in a suburban area where the air may be cleaner.

B1H

[Tablizer]

sed nuf

Nest Egg

[weegiekev]

“Move to low cost-of-living area of the world, set up shop working remote, work ten hours a week while building a huge nest egg.”

Income: $16,000
Rent: $9,600

I'm not sure what you'd consider to be a huge nest egg, but after other living expenses I can't see much being saved at the end of the day. Good luck saving for buying an apartment.

You sure as hell cant live on that

[ralphaostrander]

In America. Will that even cover grocery's for a family of 4.

Re:You sure as hell cant live on that

[0111 1110]

If that 16k is gross income then I guess that is about what I make and I live in the US. But I don't have a family to support. Just myself.

I'm actually planning to move to Malaysia. I've lived there before, and I like it better than living in the US.

Re:You sure as hell cant live on that

[JustNiz]

You don't say how many hours a week you work for your $16k, but I'm assuming you work full-time so lets say at least 40, so your income is just above the US legal minimum wage of $7.25/hr (just over $15k P.A).

If you're only making close to minimum wage in the US, that suggests you dont have (or choose not to capitalise on) any marketable skills. Just moving to Malaysia wont change your relative lack of skills. Just being an American citizen on its own is not a magic ticket to earn more money than a local. So with no skills you will only be good for minimum wage there too, which is apparently about $72/week at most.

If you do decide to go there, good luck ever affording to do anything else (including leave) ever again.

Re:SE Asia

[0111 1110]

Do people burn trash in their yards in Cambodia the way they do in Laos? I had to leave Laos for that reason. I couldn't stand the smell of burnt plastic anymore.

I also became bored with the food. I couldn't find any reliably good food in Vientiane that I could afford. Having been to Phnom Penh, I know the food situation is a lot better there, but I would still worry about trash burning and air pollution in general.

Have you managed to learn to speak the language? I've heard it's very difficult. Particularly the pronunciation.

Spain, a cautionary tale

[Anonymous Coward]

It's obvious now that Spain is not where anyone would go looking for a job, but this wasn't so in 2000. The economy was booming. I worked in IT for a dot-com in the US while living in Barcelona and was laughing - $75k/yr pretty much tax free due to the foreign earned income exception. My wife and I saved about half of it and lived well. When the dot-com biz went bust in 2001 I had to look for a job, which even in a booming economy and speaking Spanish, proved difficult. Your connections, friends, and relatives count for a LOT there, and had few (my wife's family is not very well-connected). Anyway, I would wholeheartedly recommend living outside the US (if that's where you're from; I expect it's good to live outside your home country no matter where you're from), but keep in mind that if you stay out for a long time (13 years in my case) the return can be difficult. If you get used to living in a cheaper place and having an easy life (i.e. living life instead of being too career focused) returning to the US (especially with kids, like me) can be a real shock. We're trying to manage it now and it looks like things will work out, but it has not been easy. If you learn the language where you are (and it's a global language) that can be an asset. So can trading opportunities (import/export) that you may come upon. It's still something to think about though.

Re:Color me skeptical

[Chrisq]

How in the hell do you pay $200 a month for car insurance? Do you frequently get in accidents?

Either that or he has a Ferrari

Some better alternatives

[unixisc]

I think better destinations would be Singapore or Philippines. Those 2 countries are more compatible, and there are no language issues. If one is in Taiwan or Thailand, language would be more of a problem. I'd certainly consider those better places to settle than Malaysia.

Re:Some better alternatives

[wmac1]

Philippine is unsafe and the economy is slightly better than India. I have been warned not to carry and show a DSLR in the streets and make sure to return home before the dark (unless I have a car or use a safe taxi). Even Indonesia is safer and it has a better economy than Philippine.

Singapore is a small island with a very competitive and stressful society which is very racist at the same time (against non-Singaporean Chinese, other Chinese won't count).

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/comment--xenophobia-and-the-jollibee-backlash-153822168.html

Malaysia is relatively safe , very cheap with friendly people (at least with non-Chinese). You may also give thought to Thailand.

Remote work?

[Anonymous Coward]

The article ends abruptly before explaining what this guy does in Malaysia. The suggestions in this discussion all assume the person going to Montenegro, Costa Rica, China, etc have remote work. Where is all this remote work? I've looked for a long time and all I can find are race-to-the-bottom remote work arrangements which don't pay enough to afford the Internet connection necessary to do the work.

Re:Color me skeptical

[jittles]

Car insurance $200 a month. Uncle Sam's rent money = 25% of pay = $4000 or $360 a month, Food = $350 a month or = the other 25%. Now rent you are looking at $700 a month. I live in cheap ass Florida and you can not find a good apartment for anything less.

You would need $25,0000 to just break even.

Woah nelly! I know Florida has expensive insurance, but $200 a month is pretty ridiculous. When I lived out west, my insurance was $86 every 6 months. in Sunny FL, it is $300 every 6 months. And I am not that old. Maybe you need to shop around a little?

Re:Lese Mageste

[Half-pint HAL]

Or in the event where I can pay off the local police... That might work too.

But didn't you try that before, John?

Re:Color me skeptical

[Alioth]

Depends how old you are. I lived in Texas for a few years, and when I arrived my insurance for minimum liability only on an old used vehicle was $2400/year (the insurance cost more than my vehicle). I was told that because I was foreign and under 25, I was treated as if I were a 16 year old with 5 speeding tickets.

yeah sure

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

I worked for a company that "outsourced" a job to Bangladesh and paid the guy $12k/year. He was able to hire a team of 10 people, live in a nice apartment and had maid services on that income.

Of course all 11 worked in some small room that most of us would consider a closet, on average the power went out 15 times a day so they had banks of car batteries in that small room, they had no air conditioning or even a window, and worked in some overcrowded shithole of a city.

So yeah if you want to downsize your income move to Asia, just don't expect to enjoy it, nobody there does.

Better plan

[gr8_phk]

If you can save $10/hour you'll be able to retire early in Malaysia. Work in a high cost of living area and retire in a low cost one. If you work in the low cost/low pay area you will never afford to get out.

Student loans suck!

[bigsexyjoe]

To bad I have student loans that don't shrink if I move to a cheaper country!

Re:Don't call me Shirley!

[gl4ss]

Surely, if any "shit" were going down anywhere on the planet, it would be a lot more likely you'd be running from Miami?

well if the reason for running is a coup in belize...

contrary to popular idiots most of the time when shit goes down it's very local. especially in 3rd world countries.

I prefer Thai food..

[PortHaven]

:-)

Green & Red Curry

Drunken Noodle

Coconut Soup

Papaya Salad

Re:I prefer Thai food..

[IMightB]

Thai food and Malay food is very very similar. Have you looked at the map to where they are in relation to each other?

Been doing this for years -- in the US

[bubba-cully]

Generally your cost of living depends on the desirability of your location and your standard of living which can vary anywhere. Note all the folks living in NYC on minimum wage. I've been working about 15 hours/week for years and live quite well in the US while accumulating savings. Being fortunate to bill out at a high rate (in my case, about $100/hr) makes a BIG difference. Still, if you get rid of all the big line items in most folks budgets: rent/mortgage, phone, cable, loans, eating out frequently, etc., you can bring your cost of living way down. If you're saddled with debt...not so easy. Right now, cost of living is about $2-3K/mo. for 2 people and a dog, living on the waterfront and traveling constantly. Home is a sailboat. Of course, we could live much cheaper, but we eat and drink very well and have a nice boat that is kept well. The whole East Coast is home. Could do this even cheaper with a small camper, or super inexpensive with a bike with paniers + tent. I have a friend who biked over the whole of the Americas (yes, ALL of them) for 2.5 years living on about $7/day. Naturally, she didn't have to work very often or for long.

Greece!

[graffic]

This summer a team of 2 greeks, 1 swiss and 1 spanish (all devs) was having an afternoon swim in the sea after a long day hacking some code in a close mountain.

http://pic.twitter.com/I7mLKZXf

We thought that if we could bring more people, that would be a nice income for the country: sell Greece's weather not for tourism but for remote workers.

Renting a 2 floors flat is 500-600 euro. Internet around 20-30 euro for ADSL or 25 euro for a 30GB 4G contract. Today's lunch in a restaurant for 4, 35 euro. Of course there are some things a bit expensive: coffee in a trendy cafeteria 4 euro, or 1,5L of fresh milk 2,1 euro.

Still a nice place to stay.

Be "homeless"..

[greywire]

Why go all the way to malaysia? Just be homeless. And by that I mean, live out of your old VW bus or other cheap old van. These days there's plenty of free WiFi where you can work. Sleep in your car. Eat inexpensively. Or if you need actual shelter, a small industrial unit can be had for mere hundreds per month, way cheaper than an apartment. I did both, for a while. It can actually be kinda fun if you do it right. Work in the day, hang out at coffee shops in the evening. If you have a dating partner you can even crash somewhere nice a few days a week.. Never did I consider going to malaysia.

Not only Malaysia and not only coders.....

[guinea pig C]

Malaysia is an easy option but there are lots of nicer places in Asia, especially if you do not want to live in 24 hour air con. For me I like the Tibetan foothills, where we get more sunshine than California, and yet there are still plenty of unspoiled valleys just waiting to be explored.

Re:Lese Mageste

[ladislavb]

Go to Fiji. When you get off the plane you'll also see very big guys, but instead of searching you they'll play you a welcome song on their ukuleles. You'll have to pay me a lot of money before I'd holiday in the USA when there are countries like Fiji...