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Will Donglegate Affect Your Decision To Attend PyCon?
theodp writes "Its Code of Conduct describes PyCon as 'a welcoming, friendly event for all.' But will the post-conference fallout from this year's 'Donglegate' debacle and proposed remedies affect your decision — one way or the other — to attend next year's PyCon in ironically naughty Montreal? And even if not, could 'Donglegate' influence the-powers-that-be whose approval you'll need to attend? How about conference sponsors?"
is Donglegate?
Will you idiots stop with this "topic-gate" crap already? A feminist didn't like the jokes that a couple of guys were making. They got fired. Then she got fired for rocking the boar. Case closed.
"Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
It will also put me off talking freely and in an unguarded manner in front of female attendees at any conference. Who knows which one will want to be the next twitterverse celeb getting notoriety by making a big thing out of nothing. That victimhood addict who reported those 2 guys for "inappropriate" comments went on to make very inappropriate comments herself about those guys (search for her TSA socks stuffing comments).
She is a hypocrite troublemaker who is creating divisions in the dev community along gender lines for no good reason only her own need to validate herself out of victimhood. Next time a woman mentions at work how far along she in in her pregnancy, can she be reported for inappropriate comments?Because this is where this is all going.
Pycon put out a statement that it was regrettable somebody was oversensitive and overreacted to something mildly offensive.
That under these particular circumstances it might have been best if the offended party had expressed the fact that she was offended directly to those offending her (as they were not the least bit threatening) or perhaps escalated it to Pycon security.
That Adria Richards was banned from all future events for violating Pycon privacy policies and making a hostile environment for all attendees, and the developers banned for a year for their part.
Imagine a world where Pycon did that, and stated that there would be no changes in policy as a result of the 'donglegate' effect, because no Pycon policy was an issue in the events as they unfolded.
"Rocking the boar" sounds more interesting than any other part of this story.
Calling someone something they don't like, to their face and particularly with malicious intent, might be inappropriate but it is not harassment per se. Doing so after being asked to stop (refusing to stop if there is no malicious intent does not constitute malice) probably is harassment.
A joke that somebody doesn't like, particularly if it's not told *to* them, shouldn't be considered harassment and we should be wary of attempts to ban salty jokes.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
No. She got fired because of employee misconduct. She tried to make this poor family man feel ashamed about having a penis. She literally took food off the table of 3 children. All because she faux outraged that "dongle" sounds like "dong" and "fork" sounds like "fuck".
I'm so fucking glad she got fired. I hope she gets fired from life. People and their fake outrage can die in a fire, or a Walmart trampling.
I don't know, I found the title funny -- which was probably the editor's intention in the first place. And she wasn't a feminist, that word has a real meaning that I'd rather we didn't dilute; she was a prissy, attention whoring, holier-than-thou, PC bitch.
And to answer the article's question: If I were a Python dev, I wouldn't attend. That would send a more clear message to everyone involved that those situations are ridiculous than a bunch of posts on random message boards.
It's a significant and relevant story.
We know about race hustlers... people who like to twist any situation into a racist (against blacks) for their fame and profit. It's old news.
But we don't hear much about the more quiet problem... especially in the work place. The one quite a few of us in this demographic have suffered.
There are women out there who are equally prepared to play the sexism-card when it serves their interests. In this case, this woman is a pretty good example. People have been digging up her internet content everywhere exposing what she is and does. On one hand she has a clear history of sex related things. If she was so offended by sex related things, she has a weird way of showing it. So it wasn't the sex related things that bothered her. I have little doubt that she was harmed or offended by what she thought she heard.
She may have been annoyed by the cut-ups going on behind her. That's understandable. But instead of addressing the real problem, she made up a worse one. She created this drama. She got what she expected... at first. But then the community unexpectedly returned fire. Her employer couldn't afford to have her any longer. B'Bye bitch.
This is the unspoken reason there may be reservations about women in the workplace and especially in the tech fields. We're a BUNCH of immature geeks who care less about social crap and more about technical crap. When women enter the room, we're immediately terrified that our haven is being changed leaving us nowhere to go. The unspoken fear is that we know what women can and will bring. She is a perfect example of it. Once again, her self-documented history of sexy-flirty crap spins around in an instant to "I'm offended by this double entendre!!" And of course, everyone who seeks not to be branded "a part of the problem" is forced into doing whatever pleases her.
Nice play. For once it didn't work out quite as she expected. I wonder what she will advocate next? This geek crowd she offended? They are anonymous. They don't forget. They don't forgive. And she represents every woman in the workplace who has ever played that game. And I sincerely hope her hell will give other women cause to give a second thought about playing the sexism card like this.
Le sigh.
"One of these men lost his job as a result of this incident, and we are seeing numerous people blame Adria for that. This is a clear example of a culture we live in, where it is more appropriate to blame the victim than to blame any other offenders."
What the everliving fuck?
She wasn't a "victim" of anything. These guys didn't rape her. They didn't assault her. They didn't slander her, they didn't harass her they didn't DO anything to her. They told a joke meant for each other and happened to be within earshot of her. That was the reason she got fired. She's claiming to be some sort of victim and framing all women as victims of "this sort of behavior" and its just bullshit. You do not have a right to not be offended. As long as that person isn't directly talking about you, thats where your rights end.
Now if they had said "I bet this chick in front of us here would love it if the presenters had bigger dongles" or something of that nature, she'd have a bit of a case here as that could very easily be considered harassment.
And she wasn't a feminist
The term you're looking for is "feminazi"
is put a chilling effect on developer conferences in general, and put pressure on conference staff to create policies that shouldn't even be necessary.
Talk freely and openly? Not anymore. Oh no! Someone said compile and link in the same sentence! I'm offended! As a female myself, now I have to worry that if I walk up to another developer, their first thought will be, "Oh shit, it's a woman. Gotta scoot!"
Do you have a smart phone? Sorry, you're not allowed to use it anymore because you might be taking photos of other people to post on your twitfaceplus feed in order to disrupt their lives.
This whole thing is a big pile of idiocy, and mindbogglingly poorly handled on ALL sides.
kill yourself
Someone is trying desperately to make this into something bigger than it is.
Absolutely this. Those guys told a tame (even boring) joke in the wrong place, she immediately went nutso-nuclear. One of the guys lost his job and so did she.
Case closed.
Aside from those two, there's no good reason anyone should avoid PyCon, and we all know it. If you can act like a normal adult, it's unlikely you'll have any problems with anyone.
I predict a resurgence in traditional men's clubs.
His post is significant and should be read through twice, as it is heartfelt (not a troll) and seems to represent a lot of thinking here.
Although it is really sad:
This is the unspoken reason there may be reservations about women in the workplace and especially in the tech fields. We're a BUNCH of immature geeks who care less about social crap and more about technical crap. When women enter the room, we're immediately terrified that our haven is being changed leaving us nowhere to go. The unspoken fear is that we know what women can and will bring.
Dude, you're saying is that you are a loser with no social skills. But that that's OK because there are plenty of others just like you and you'll all engage in this bullying of women who venture into a tech field without knowing their proper place, which is to be quiet and submissive, ignore the bad behavior and don't try to advance in your career.
This geek crowd she offended? They are anonymous. They don't forget. They don't forgive. And she represents every woman in the workplace who has ever played that game.
That's exactly what black people had to deal with during the Jim Crow era of this country, and are still dealing with in some parts of the rural South. Be happy you haven't been chased out of here and shut up. Congratulations, you just revealed that in another place and time you would have been part of the oppressive majority.
We are all at risk here. Even though we have freedom of speech, we run the risk of losing our livelihoods if we say something that might offend someone somewhere. Richards was being a real "bitch." I say "bitch" because it is a disparaging name for a female. Not because I wish to be sexist. If the perpetrator of this nonsense was a guy, I'd call him a real "bastard." Calling a woman a "bastard" doesn't seem to be the correct usage in the English language. If someone can come up with a disparaging name to call a female that is not sexist, please suggest one, but if it is not sexists to call a guy a bastard, I refuse to accept that there is no non-sexist name we can call a woman when we are condemning her and her actions, but I digress.
Seriously, I've been in the situation where I have been pulled aside by management for saying something offensive, but they won't say what, to someone, but they won't say who, and that I should stop it, but they don't say how. The whole harassment mentality is very kafka-esque. The REAL hostile work environment is created by zero-tolerance crap, which, by definition, means "intolerant."
Human beings are imperfect. "Appropriate" behavior is a myth of the modern workplace police. Human beings build relationships and we communicate. We are not robots. Humor is part of humanity, and sometimes humor is off color. There is a difference between saying, "Hey, my dongle is bigger than yours" and "Have sex with me or your fired."
Also, lets be honest here, if ms Richard heard these jokes from her friends at that conference, she would not have complained. She should try to understand and take to heart Voltaire's quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." An evangelist should stand for something besides her own notoriety. Gatherings of human beings are generally improved when we all try to be tolerant of one another.
Certainly not if my job can be put at risk because some attention-seeker decides to be offended by an innocent remark I make in a private conversation that they happen to overhear.
I don't care if you're offended. There's a bunch of stuff that offends me but you don't hear me whining on about it, because I'm a grown-up and I have learned that other people think differently from me.
No. The problem is that people like you cannot distinguish between sexism and dirtbaggery. The developers were crude, not sexist. Adria was a dirtbag, not a sexist. Sexism is wrong. Being crude in a professional setting is wrong. Being a dirtbag is wrong. Killing is wrong. Stealling is wrong. Just don't pretend that these are the same thing. The backlash simply proves that you have dirtbags wherever you have people. Not new news. Sexism may exist in tech conferences, but the backlash was not an example of it. Trying to say that it is, is a perfect example of why people are so outraged: because the pendulum has swung too far, and the term "sexism" is starting to look like an absurd and meaningless term. Nice try.
To be fair the Joker may have been belligerent and annoying. I don't like it when people talk during lectures either. It makes it hard to pay attention. To make it worse they were telling off-color, extra-annoying jokes. There's nothing necessarily sexist or anti-woman about making a dongle joke, but it certainly can make women (or men) feel uncomfortable. It very well may create less friendly environment to some women. That being said, the photograph/tweet response was not terribly appropriate. Neither is she to blame for the consequent firing of photographed employees (except maybe getting herself fired)
Her response could have been to turn around and nicely (or angrily) ask them to be quiet or leave. I don't agree with her approach to solving the problem, but I do not think it is her fault that one of the guys got fired. Perhaps he was otherwise incompetent or was always making stupid jokes that pissed everyone off? Perhaps the guys employer overreacted badly to this incident and then that is really unfortunate. In which case I guess she would share some of the blame with the employer.
So hopefully a good python dev can get a new job. I'm not sure what a technology evangelist does, but I hope she uses better judgement at dealing with similar situations in the future. This sucks. Whenever I go to a tech conference, I get very excited and inpsired by all the good work being done by other people. I will continue to attend conferences for sure and hope they can be a welcoming place for everyone.... even n00bs.
It is the best thing to happen to any conference. A clear message that this mysognistic brogrammer crap is unacceptable.
Professionalism and free speech are different things, get over it.
In reality - she wanted it both ways. She leveraged the Internet mob (her twitter followers) on the two guys that "offended" her.
Yet, we know the Internet mob is a fickle beast. She got the reaction she wanted - but - it also lashed back at her. They brutally attacked her.
Which, who knows, that could have been part of the scheme all along. She knew the Internet kids would strike back with real sexism and real attacks - validating the "hatred against women" she wants to perpetuate.
Live by the mob, die by the mob.
If she gave up so easily, she probably shouldn't be a programmer, we all take a lot of torment. If I gave up on programming because of every time I was called a geek or nerd when I was 8, I'd be flipping burgers.
This situation has nothing to do with the women in the IT industry are treated. It has everything to do with one person involving themselves in a conversation they weren't part of and publicly shaming people who weren't talking to her and she couldn't even clearly hear. This could have happened in any busy public place and you might as well say that 8 year old gave up on her dream of being a stripper.
There's a difference be having a lot of support among women (what I said) and having at least some support from women (what you said).
Andrea Dworkin made her comments about sex in marriage being rape in the eighties, I'm pretty sure. It was highly controversial in the feminist community at the time, though, yeah, it had a few supporters. But it got airtime there because so many people didn't agree with her. (And, of course, what she was saying was much more nuanced than the short quote that is generally cited.) And you still have men now pulling it out as being representative of feminists all this time later. These days I only hear her brought up in feminist contexts in a historical context. She's just not that relevant. (I mean, really. Andrea Dworking for crying out loud.)
She's being brought up not because she has support from feminists, but because men like to bring her up to make feminists look bad. And in my experience, that's a fairly common tactic - look at all the invocations of feminazis and the like here, and all the "that's just what feminists are like!" comments. (And, for that matter, the nasty comments about women generally. And how people who have made civil and reasonable comments in support of women have been modded down as flamebait.)
Perfect answer. She is the poison for events and employers and other women who actually want to make an honest living in the world.
Women have had this amazing free pass on their behavior for so long. I know women who are absolutely ashamed on behalf of these other women. We're afraid to complain about "these people." //What do you mean "these people"?!// You know what I mean and quit pretending to be semi-offended asking me to say something you can use against me.
"Sexism" means women are involved. Racism means black people are involved.
Sexist behavior means someone offended someone else and that it was a woman. Women can't be sexist. Black people can't be racist. It's a power struggle.
(If what I wrote up there sounds pretty ridiculous, I agree. If it still rings true somehow? Well... there you go.)
Unfortunately, you're missing a third group: people who look to be offended so they can play a victim and get attention. Adria's in this last group.
The truly despicable part about this last group is that in the face of a true problem and real victims, this third group makes the problem worse for everyone. It detracts from the real victims' ability to stand up for their rights, reinforces the stereotypes held by the people causing the problem, and paints a larger group as aggressors because the group causing the problem happens to be a subset.
Luckily, while I'm a guy and risk being demonized, I'm saved by another geek stereotype of which I strongly adhere - I'm too anti-social to find myself in the position of making inappropriate jokes with anyone, and I care more about learning the technologies presented at conferences to be chatting during a talk even if I wasn't..
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Why do pretty girls dress up as comic book characters and go to comic con? Because they are paid to.
Her job is to make a good impression for her employers with geeks, she doesn't need to be a programmer to do that.
She was there because that is where she could rub shoulders with exactly the sort of person her job needs her to make contact with... you know, the sort of person she got fired.
These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
You're deeply concerned about the careers of women, who you like to hire... because you can pay them less for doing more reliable quality work.
What a moving tribute to China's acceptance of the modern Western Capitalist workplace values.
It's not diluting feminism.. it's exposing it for what it has always been: bullshit, victimology and letting women use their massive societal privilege to ruin innocent men's lives.
When feminists were asking for the right to vote, was that "bullshit, victimology and letting women use their massive societal privilege to ruin innocent men's lives"?
When feminists were asking for the right to medical treatment without requiring spousal consent, was that "bullshit, victimology and letting women use their massive societal privilege to ruin innocent men's lives"?
When feminists were (and still are) asking for the right to wage parity, was (is) that "bullshit, victimology and letting women use their massive societal privilege to ruin innocent men's lives"?
There is a hardcore of militants that are often refered to as "feminazis", but they are not the mainstream of feminism -- far from it. Feminism is about stopping us guys using our massive societal privilege to ruin women's lives. Me, I want a wife that is my equal, not some subjugated slave.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
You are revealing that your world view includes a large group of men who make collective decisions and carry them through like an organized men's political interest group - for example influencing or planting reporters to focus on such stories and then use the stories to undermine feminism. Such a group doesn't exist. That your worldview includes such a group anyway shows a clear us-versus-those-pigs mentality that is more likely the true reason that men are disregarding your views. I just followed your lead in psychologizing about people I don't know.
Strawman. You're ignoring the concept of "emergent behaviour". Several agents acting independently of each other can act the same way, establishing a pattern of behaviour. That behaviour starts to become the engrained norm. People do it without thinking about it. For many people, it is an automatic reaction to make the same oppositions that they see all the time on the news, on the internet or from their friends, and one of the automatic responses to feminism is a strawman. While some extreme feminists do indeed harp on about patriarchal society as though it's a conspiracy, the leading thinkers acknowledge it as a mindset, and they're looking to change that mindset.
Consider also that there wasn't any great conspiracy to treat black people as lesser human beings -- our ancestors just happened to be very, very racist and actually believed that the colour of your skin dictated your value as a human being. It took conscious and concerted effort to change that mindset, and it has taken and will take more conscious and concerted effort to give women truly equal rights to men.
Including a conscious and concerted effort not to overcompensate in certain areas given rise to claims of overprivilege.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
If she was like nosy bitch let me say...yay!
We really need to stand up and say "this shit is NOT gonna cut it" because a guy was FIRED for telling a joke TO HIS FRIEND and was overheard by a member of the politically correct brigade who then blasted their picture all over the interwebs with a "look at the dirty men" kind of deal.
Now imagine getting fired for telling a joke to your friend because some bitch you never even met took your picture and decided she was offended by something not directed TO her or AT her...that is fucked up folks and we need to tell the PC bitch and her ilk to STFU and get the 2x4 out of their asses. Since they were in CA which is a two party state he really needs to sue the bitch, I'd take every damned cent the woman has just to make a lesson for those that don't know how to act like a fucking civilized human being. All she had to do was tell the guys they were disturbing her and that would have been that, but oh hell no, then she couldn't play the victim...fuck her, I hope she has serious difficulty finding a job and ends up having to take a shit job for reduced pay, because she is a good example of what is wrong with the world right now.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
So you hire more women cause you pay them less salary for the same work?
If a man and women are doing the same job at the same skill level (and by your own admission the woman does it better) and you are paying the women less only because of her genitals then you meet the very definition of sexism.
I am close to giving up on Slashdot
Fair enough since I already gave up on women. :)
Honestly, they're just too much of a problem now.
Look at the marriage stats.
Really, who do you think is making the decision to not marry anymore?
Women?
hahahaha.
1. The only pay gap between men and women is the one showing that women get paid MORE per hour... when you take into account things like part time work. It's the worst kind of statistics abuse to claim that women lose out on pay compared to men. Stats abuse is a speciality of feminists - see also domestic violence.
2. Women have ALWAYS had massive privilege in society - "women and children first" wasn't invented by feminists. It was men...
3. The pussy pass. Women routinely avoid prison sentences or lower sentences for the exact same crime committed by men - who are jailed for years.
This bizarre alternate reality invented by feminists in which the world's power was divided into men and women - UNTIL the 60s - has gone unchallenged for too long because men want to get laid.
Times change. It's time men started fighting back against the massive amounts of lies and slander that have been used against them in the last 50 years.
Even if human societies behaved like dogpacks (which they don't), simply declaring yourself "alpha" wouldn't make you...
...but I guess we can't expect great logic from someone who's proudly declaring his believe in the Sunk Cost Fallacy (also hypocrisy, since *everything* includes genocide which you just condemned "jihadists" for).
Well, anyone who's ever seen the kind of total war you're promoting or gets caught up in one might dislike you for said promotion, which doesn't really strike me as particularly childish reason. Also, most people will probably not like someone who dismisses their culture, so add Muslims to the list. And I doubt scientists are happy with you trying to elevate their results into capital-T Truth, since that tends to hinder their work.
Don't vote for any politician unless they sound like they're paraphrasing Atlas Shrugged? Sorry, but no; having hundreds of millions of dollars does not mean you "generated" that wealth, it means that you are good at concentrating economic power into your hands - and even most often, than you were born rich.
What it actually achieved were a number of colonial empires. Those collapsed after two world wars caused by people who tried to be "alpha". Then people like you start twisting history to fit into your (totally non-racist, because you believe racism is wrong, and this all sounds exactly like classic racist spiel purely by accident) superhero fantasy, all because you want a strong leader who doesn't care about being liked to make you feel more like "alpha" - you know, coming to think of it, this is almost starting to sound like the prelude to one of those world wars.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Deluging her with death threats is wrong.
Deluging her with letters of disapproval (one sender at a time) is not: she is an activist and a media personality, and people have a right to respond to her.
You are the problem. She did not fire the person, his boss fired him. And she is not a bitch she's a human being. Why are you even using that word like you're still only 12 years old? If you have a job, how do you manage to keep your job when you talk like that and walk around with hate all the time? Grow up, when you get out into the real world you'll realize that you need to be polite to get and keep a job, even in IT. Or if you're in a job, are you one of those who whispers "keep it down, HR is was seen in the next aisle" because you know you'll get fired if you're actually overheard?
Would you be willing to send those comments you wrote above to your mother?