In Iceland, Tap Cellphones To Avoid Incest

Kozar_The_Malignant writes "Students at the University of Iceland have written an Android app that helps you avoid dating your cousins. The app accesses the Icelandic national genealogical database that contains information on all living citizens and their ancestors going back 1,100 years. Tapping two phones together will bring up an alert if you share a common grandparent." Just one of the consequences of having a population small enough (and well documented enough) to have a well-known genetic makeup.

Comments

Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really need an app to tell you who's family?

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[GameboyRMH]

In high school one of the hottest girls who half the guys (including myself) had a boner for turned out to be a very distant relative of mine...only found out years later from my dad's family tree research hobby. Makes me feel a little better about not tapping that :-\

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Aguazul2]

In Iceland AFAIK people are called "Bob son of George" or "Mary daughter of John", so there aren't any surnames to make it obvious. It makes me wonder how the database can uniquely identify you, though. (I wonder at what stage in the dating/relationship procedure the phone tapping takes place -- you don't want to leave it too late, nor be in a rush and tap too early...)

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

Iceland is one of the few places that still use the Ancient Germanic Naming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_names). This is based upon your father's (or rarely mother's) first name.

Thus, if siblings lose contact with another, it is very possible their decedents would not know their cousins by name.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not tapping that?

Or not even registering in her consciousness as existing?

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[roc97007]

Not to be creepy or anything, but from a genetic standpoint, a distant relative would probably have been fine to date.

But I know what you mean. A Playmate from the late sixties is a distant relative of mine, and I was always a little creeped out by that centerfold.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[GameboyRMH]

Nah we were reasonably friendly. I was taking the slow "get laid or friend-zoned trying" approach while other guys were going for the "assault with pickup lines and see what sticks" strategy.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[roc97007]

Do you really need an app to tell you who's family?

Funny you mention that. Not to put too fine a point on it, but much of my family belong to a religion that promotes large families and careful genealogical records, and I found out one day entirely by accident that one of my co-workers, a thousand miles from my home town, was a first cousin. It can happen even in the US; I imagine it's a fairly common occurrence in a tiny country like Iceland.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[WaywardGeek]

Actually, it depends on the genetic diversity in the population. In some island cultures it became acceptable to for brothers to marry sisters. If everyone already pretty much has the same genes, that's fine, because serious receive genetic disorders have already been breeded out. In Iceland, it's likely less of a problem to marry a cousin than it would be in most of the USA.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[lister king of smeg]

also promiscuity of you parents could result in not know whose kid you are, or sperm doners, or maritel infidelity could mean the girl next door is your half sibling.
just because you have someones name and were raised by them does not mean you are related to them and by extension there family making this database fallible.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[CrimsonAvenger]

This word does not mean what you think it does...

decedents : someone who has died

Perhaps you meant "descendants"?

Good point about Iceland's naming conventions though - hadn't really thought about it, but if we used Ancient German Naming, I'd only know a couple of cousins were related if my Dad had told me so....

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[TheP4st]

In Iceland AFAIK people are called "Bob son of George" or "Mary daughter of John"

Almost right, it's "Bob son of George" and "Mary daughter of Jane"

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[SJHillman]

But at the same time, incest increases the chances of the remaining recessive genetic defects showing up in children and causing problems.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[SilentStaid]

(I wonder at what stage in the dating/relationship procedure the phone tapping takes place -- you don't want to leave it too late, nor be in a rush and tap too early...)

Here in the US I usually tap it after 3 good dinner dates.

Re: Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Gilmoure]

Yup, here in New Mexico, just about any of the old family names are relatives, to one degree or another. Is one of th reasons my Mom and several of her sisters went out of state to find husbands. Our family photos now have us ranging from pale redheads through blond blue eys to dark brown with black hair. Kinda cool having a rainbow family. Doesn't make sense to look down on anyone due to how they look. Now, if they don't like chile...

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was taking the slow "get laid or friend-zoned trying" approach

There's only one result from that approach, still, it's better than the full assault. You've probably learned by now that something in between is better.

If you're suggesting there's no escape from the friend zone, there is. The secret is cold-turkey no-contact for a while (I haven't dialed in the exact timespan, but I've confirmed 1 year separation can do it), and improving your life in some way during that time (status based like better job, higher income, new car, but anything with growth helps like learning a new language, travelling, volunteering). Eventually reunite and all you gotta do is not be stupid and good times may not only be had, but you can actually build a relationship which is the whole point of pining for a friend (otherwise there are other ways to get a quickie or cheapie that won't pay off long run).

It works because the brain changes for attraction and chemistry are in different locations and fade at different rates. A friendzone situation has attraction in there, at least weakly (you don't have to be beautiful, but you definitely can't be a slob), but the problem isn't that the chemistry is missing but that it's negative. Improving your life without them adds to your confidence, shows that you don't need them (and thus wanting to share your life with them is a valuable gift and not you feeding off them), and sets up a vector that demonstrates that they should have gotten in on the ground floor but here's the next chance.

It's a lot of work but if you are friendzoned and you know them well enough you will be able to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[ebno-10db]

Hopefully attractive Icelandic women find overweight balding middle age geeks exotic!

They definitely do.

Got my tickets, will arrive in Iceland by the end of the week!

Airline tickets? Waste of money. Much cheaper to hop on the back of a flying pig.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[ebno-10db]

it's "Bob son of George" and "Mary daughter of Jane"

You mean "Worf son of Mogh" is an Icelander?

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're suggesting there's no escape from the friend zone, there is

Escaping from the "friend zone" requires maturing enough to realize that women aren't just vending machines you put niceness tokens into until sex comes out.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[hobarrera]

Honestly, why?
If you reproduce with a close relative, there's a higher chance of some genetic flaws showing up. But just having [protected] sex with a distant cousin won't result in anything nasty. Heck, not even your sister would be an issue (unless you get here pregnant).
This used to be shuned upon because sex = kids. This isn't true anymore nowadays, since we have pills, condoms, etc. It's just inhereted taboo.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[FuzzNugget]

Oh, and all this time, I thought they just picked letters out of a Scrabble bag.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lies.

You definitely can put tokens in girls and get sex out. Although they usually prefer direct deposit.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, that's Poland.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[ProzacPatient]

I think the friend-zone phenomena is typically a result of, or combination thereof; immature women (esp. teenagers), women who knowingly take advantage and men who have a self-image problem.
On the other hand there are men who do actually believe you can put niceness tokens in until sex comes out and women can typically spot that from a mile away.
And then from personal experience there are cases where a man genuinely loves a woman to the point he would lay down his life for hers but she continually pushes him aside; it's not a nice place to be in, it's emotionally frustrating and generally not worth putting up with so the parent comment's suggestion of separation is not a bad idea because it'll give you time to breathe, mature and maybe she'll realize what she lost.. or not but you'll be better off as a free man from such emotional tyranny.


Last but not least is a tidbit from the Bible; "The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).
Listening to ones heart often leads to irrational decisions and therefore many regrets so the Bible again councils; "thinking ability itself will keep guard over you, discernment itself will safeguard you," (Proverbs 2:11). How wise it is to think before you feel!

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[femtobyte]

Advantages/disadvantages to genetic traits tend to be quite asymmetric. There aren't "super good" genes in the "plus" category that are both rare and confer a big positive genetic advantage when they come together --- since evolutionary pressures assure that any "big plus" traits get spread around to the whole population (it's unlikely that your close family group exclusively has some "superman genes" unavailable from mates from the wider population). However, there are lots of rare "super bad" gene combinations, that cause really terrible results when they (rarely) come together.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[quarterbuck]

Not really. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name " Mary daughter of Jane is the uncommon version".

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[cayenne8]

An average Icelander has something like a dozen sexual partners in life,

That doesn't sound terribly high...

Isn't the average in the US (at least for men) much higher than that? I mean, especially if you're talking lifetime?

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[bdwebb]

Oh if only I had mod points.

This is unequivocally true for a significant portion of women through a large span of their lives. You don't necessarily need the tokens to get to the eventual goal of sexy time but they can help significantly. This is also true for most men although the tokens are not usually required...just some beer and attention.

Ultimately if you are looking for a relationship, tokens don't work out well for anything meaningful. If you are just looking for something warm and squishy, however, tokens can be your best resource if you are making no progress without them. When it comes down to it, a combination of confidence and tokens yields the highest result because without any of the confidence part of the equation, the tokens only work on those women whose profession requires accepting those tokens.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the friend-zone phenomenon is typically a result of one or more of the following conditions:

1) Men who don't realize how singularly unattractive they are -- sometimes, she's just not into you because you're fat, nerdy, gross, or simply... not her type. This doesn't make her any more shallow than you - when's the last time you went after a fat, sweaty girl with a hairy upper lip, telling your friends, "Sure she's not very pretty, but I can see that she's just such an amazing person that I must have her!"?

2) Men who confuse "having an agenda" with being "genuinely nice, lovable people" -- if you're being nice expecting to get laid, you have an agenda. If you have an agenda, she knows it, because you don't have ANYWHERE NEAR a good enough poker face to fool a woman.

3) Men who confuse "being a pussy" with "being nice" -- treating her like you're a servant is fucking stupid.

The guys who whine about "friend zones" are the ones who simply don't know how to look at themselves honestly, and realize that there is no way on earth the girl they're pining for is every going to want to get naked with them - barring some significant and sweeping changes to the man's appearance, demeanor, and lifestyle.

I know I'll get shouted down for daring to criticize the men in this situation, but if you're an ugly doormat hoping that "being nice" will someday turn into sex, you should learn to self-examine with half as much ferocity as you criticize the women who are turning you down.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not true at all.

You confuse "being a doormat" with "being nice." All those guys who you think are assholes for not treating a girl the way you would? They're treating a girl like the girl is an EQUAL, not some sort of rare, fragile flower that will die the instant you disagree with it.

The guys who think "treating a girl like shit" is the way to get a girl are simply rationalizing - they've never learned how to deal with a woman as an equal, and a human, so they put her on a pedestal and revere her from afar. And then get bitter when she doesn't break her fucking legs running at you with her panties pulled aside.

YOU lot are the ones behaving like assholes - you have unfair, unrealistic expectations of how the woman should behave, and then you blame HER for your own shortcomings.

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Uberbah]

Escaping from the "friend zone" requires maturing enough to realize that women aren't just vending machines you put niceness tokens into until sex comes out.

/rolls eyes

Escaping from the "dating zone" requires women maturing enough to realize that men aren't just vending machines you put niceness tokens into until money comes out.

Or, we could deal with the fact that human beings, of either gender, tend to be given shitty dating advise from society and social circles. But why waste time on that when you can pigeonhole people with sexist stereotypes?

Re:Don't you know who your cousins are?

[Guppy]

you don't want to leave it too late, nor be in a rush and tap too early...

Yeah, I sometimes tap too early when playing rush decks also, but the more lethal mistake is to wait too long and let things drag out into mid-game, where your deck type loses its natural advantage vs. slower (but more deliberate) deck designs.

"Tap" phones?

[denzacar]

"Tapping" anything seems to me like a very poor choice of words when talking about incest.

Re:"Tap" phones?

[coldsalmon]

Also, a very poor choice of words when talking about phones. "Tapping" a phone doesn't usually mean bumping two phones together.

Re:"Tap" phones?

[interkin3tic]

Also seems like it could be super awkward from start to finish.

Scenario one: You think you're hitting it off. You suggest tapping phones. You find out you weren't hitting it off.

Scenario two: You are actually hitting it off. You think tapping phones would be good so you don't spend too much time wooing someone who may turn out to be a closer relative than you'd like. The other party was having a good time, but now it's a little more obvious that you want to mash genitals together, and there's increased sexual tension, making it more stressful for them or for you, and you ruin it.

Scenario three: You are hitting it off, have successfully navigated increasing sexual tension, not too fast and not too slow. You are about to start making out, but then you decide to check. This kills the mood.

Scenario four: you hit it off, you don't rush things, you don't kill the pre-makeout mood, you're already swapping saliva. You check right before putting on the condom. Network lag, it takes a few minutes before you get the results back, the guy becomes nervous in the meantime, and can't perform.

Scenario five: you hit it off, you don't rush things, you don't kill the pre-makeout mood, you check while putting on the condom... and it's positive, you two are second cousins twice removed or something. I think it's second cousins who can, statistically speaking, reproduce and their chances of having recessive alleles show up is not any more likely than someone who is not related, so it's not inbreeding genetically. But it's still... weird. Do you go ahead and screw? Do you look up on wiki examples of other couples who were related in the same way?

Scenario six: you're already married, and your wife is going into labor with your first born. It takes quite a while, and you're bored, so you test this on a lark and... oops... you're twins separated at birth. Awkward.

Re:"Tap" phones?

[GameboyRMH]

Scenario 5.5: You're approaching climax when your phone gets knocked off the side table and hits hers on the floor. The app makes the banjo tune noise that indicates you're related...just as you both reach the height of passion 8-(

Re:"Tap" phones?

[interkin3tic]

Scenario seven: you're some royal line, trying to keep the Iron throne in the family. You jokingly check phones. Uh oh, someone was actually adopted...

Re:"Tap" phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides, this whole app idea is impractical.

Better to just outsource all potentially sexual dating in Iceland to yours truly, I'm not Icelandic.
%100 percent incest protection. Because I care.

Re:"Tap" phones?

[Hoi Polloi]

Oh, AVOID incest. I got confused too.

Re:"Tap" phones?

[OakDragon]

If it's a Windows phone, it's called "bumping uglies."

Re:"Tap" phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

Marketing slogan: Tap the glass before you tap the a$$

Re:"Tap" phones?

[Tyler Durden]

Scenario five: you hit it off, you don't rush things, you don't kill the pre-makeout mood, you check while putting on the condom... and it's positive, you two are second cousins twice removed or something

Not to ruin the joke or anything, but if the second cousins are twice removed then they're typically off by a couple generations. The age discrepancy would be awkward enough.

Re:"Tap" phones?

[TWX]

Our school district preggo school was called "TAPP". Apparently it stood for "TeenAge Pregnancy Program"...

I'm curious as to which overpaid PhD thought of that one...

Re:"Tap" phones?

[GrBear]

Eh, I don't think tapping the ass is the issue with incest.

The Test

[revoemag4]

Tap that before you tap that.

Nightmare

[jomama717]

"I awoke in a daze - sticky, smelling of stale alcohol, only imagining that her head would hurt as badly as mine when she finally awoke.  Vague memories of drinks, friends, laughter, and sex.  Lots of sex.  As I picked my pants up off the floor, my cell phone fell from the pocket and by some cruel twist of fate tapped her cell phone lying nearby..."

No incest

[Anonymous Coward]

Having sex with your cousin is not incest. Incest is defined to be with direct 1st degree relatives of the same bloodline. You can even marry your cousin - perfectly legal. At least in Germany.

Re:No incest

[femtobyte]

As your "At least in Germany" caveat notes, this is highly dependent on jurisdiction (for the legal definition) and cultural norms (for the "eww-that's-gross" definition). In the US, for example, definitions vary at the state level, and first cousins are forbidden to marry in some states. Also variable is how laws cover adopted/step-parent (no biological bloodline) family members.

Re:No incest

[Anonymous Coward]

Even more amusing is that states regularly slagged for being full of "inbred racist rednecks" - such as: Arkansas, Kansas, Louisiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, West Virginia, and others... ban marriage of first cousins.

The list of states that allow first cousin marriage include "forward thinking" places like California, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Washington DC, and Oregon. Can't wait to hear the inbreeding jokes about those states!

Q: How do you tell if someone is from California?
A: The hemophilia, mostly.

Re:No incest

[bickerdyke]

Or differ between Springfield and Shelbyville.

Re:No incest

[Anonymous Coward]

Things often get banned in response to being pervasive and problematic, and permitted where they're too infrequent to cause widespread public concern. I'm totally unsurprised that the "redneck" states found the need for lots of restrictive inbreeding laws.

Re:No incest

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Even more amusing is that states regularly slagged for being full of "inbred racist rednecks" - such as: Arkansas, Kansas, Louisiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, West Virginia, and others... ban marriage of first cousins.

Now if only you cared enough to explain us what has inbreeding ever had to do with marriage...?

Re:No incest

[SilentStaid]

I blame the Internet for raising me from a young age to not be surprsed that a such thing as a 'Cousin-dating-law-colored-map-of-Oregon' even exists, let alone that you were able to Google it in 30 seconds.

Internet, what have you done?

Re:No incest

[dgatwood]

Wrong. Things are banned where they're considered *problematic* and permitted where they're NOT considered *problematic.*

Right.

Clearly, this means that liberals have decided that fucking your cousin is A-OK, despite the fact that it increases the chance of genetic defects in the children of that union.

Wrong. Marrying your cousin is unlikely to cause problems—the risk is only slightly higher than the risk in the general population. What causes problems is repeated inbreeding of close relatives over the course of several generations.

The fundamental thing you're missing is why incest is a problem in southern states. In the South, people don't move around that much. Most of the folks you meet are third, fourth, fifth generation residents of a given town. And the ones who aren't are usually from a couple of towns over. This means that there's a very high probability of being related to many of the people you meet. Left alone, this would result in significant inbreeding problems within just a few generations. Therefore, cousin marriages are problematic.

In California, most of the people you meet are transplants from somewhere else. This means that there's almost zero probability of being related to anyone you meet. Therefore, first cousin marriages are not problematic in California, not because they won't ever be problematic if they occurred, but because they're about as likely as the Cubs winning the world series, and because the probability of multigenerational inbreeding (the real problem) is basically zero.

Re:No incest

[TheNastyInThePasty]

A 14 year old dog is getting pretty old...

Re:It will be very successful app in West Virginia

[GameboyRMH]

I think it will be *least* popular in West Virginia...don't ask, don't tell XD

Great quote from "A good year"

[Bearhouse]

Guy 1: "Is it illegal to shag your cousin in France?"
Guy 2: "Only if she's ugly."

Interestingly different attitudes to cousin love...some places it's encouraged, others, illegal incest.
10% of marriages worldwide, apparantly...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

cool app

[Rogue Haggis Landing]

Without reading TFA, this actually seems like a cool app (if you're Icelandic, that is). It would be interesting to be able to press a button and see how closely related you are to your friends -- "Hey our great-great-great grandmothers were half-sisters!" Things like that. It would be mostly meaningless, but who doesn't want to know who's in the (very) extended family?

Re:cool app

[PolygamousRanchKid]

It would be interesting to be able to press a button and see how closely related you are to your friends

It would be interesting to be able to press a button and see how closely related you are to your parents.

This app is based on written records. Maybe some folks were a little shy with the truth when it came to saying who was the father of the child . . . ?

My family tree has routing loops . . .

Re:cool app

[Anonymous Coward]

As one ,,reporting" from Iceland I can confirm that the making of the database did reveal some embarrassing facts regarding family structure, especially for the older generations. Most of the older records and information used in the database come from so-called church books (before 1900) and national birth registry information. In some cases the information was correctly recorded but hush hush-ed within families to be later revealed with this database. In other cases the identity of the father was ... adjusted for the birth certificates, making it not as an obvious lie, when looking up info in the database...

I have heard about cases where people send a complaint to the database management regarding information on their families.. just to be told the truth about their grandmas and grandpas...

Hopefully this was insightful :)

Re:cool app

[BotnetZombie]

My family tree has routing loops . . .

Ah, the McFlys. Someone is his own grandfather perhaps?

Genetic Makeup

[Rob Riggs]

New, from Mabeline.

Re:Could be useful...

[CrimsonAvenger]

Long story short: After a very short conversation about relatives we found out that my mom and her dad were 1st cousins. Doh! I have never been so disappointed as I was then... :P

Second cousins, then. Biologically, that makes you basically complete strangers....

Incidentally

[dorpus]

When I went to grad school to get my PhD in biostatistics, they taught us in genetic epidemiology class that 1st cousin marriages do not have a significantly higher risk of genetic problems in offspring than marriages by unrelated people.

Some parts of the world where 1st cousin marriages have taken place for many generations do have higher concentrations of some forms of thalassemia. But for a typical American who does not come from such a lineage, the medical risks of first cousin marriages are minimal.

73 Comments so far

[Rob the Bold]

73 comments so far and no one's linked the obligatory xkcd?

Re:It will be very successful app in West Virginia

[knight24k]

I think it will be *least* popular in West Virginia...don't ask, don't tell XD

Hey, I have relatives in West Virginia you insensitive clod!

.....and a couple ex-girlfriends

....don't ask.

In Alabama...

[gtbritishskull]

Incidentally, in Alabama the same app is used to find dates.

Re:Could be useful...

[lister king of smeg]

from a genetic standpoint you were safe
sibling share on average what 23 chromosomes :. offspring have and average of 12 dupes
1st cousins share 12 :. 6 dupes
2nd cosines share 6 :. 3 dupes
add in mutation rate in humans of 175 nucleotides per generation per chromosome, and you safe as long as you don't have a family doing it for multiple generations.
socially however you would be frowned upon.

Re:Hardly groundbreaking discoveries

[Rogue Haggis Landing]

unless you're part of the royal family, or in the deep south of the US, where family trees tend to be a lot... slimmer...

The classic example of this is, of course, poor mentally and physically disabled Carlos II of Spain of the cousin-bonking Hapsburgs. His father was his mother's uncle, and the family tree just gets worse from there. To quote Wikipedia, "Joanna [of Castile] was two of Charles' 16 great-great-great-grandmothers, six of his 32 great-great-great-great-grandmothers, and six of his 64 great-great-great-great-great-grandmothers." Oh, and Joanna went insane early in her life, so she wasn't exactly a genetic marvel herself. No wonder poor Chuck turned into something only a couple of steps above a wet sack of blubbering goo.

Patronyms and social mores.

[wcrowe]

At first I thought, "How could you not know?" But then I remembered that in Iceland, patronyms are common, and (so I've been told) there are not as many social stigmas surrounding unwed motherhood. So I suppose, when you meet someone, it really is possible that you could be related and not know it.

Re:Could be useful...

[cmdr_klarg]

Must be cultural. If you had half a brain, you'd seize the opportunity.

True. Fortunately I have a whole brain.

Why?

[T.E.D.]

Is this really common enough to require an app? Average household size is only 2.5 people, so large estranged families have to be pretty rare.

It seems far more likely to have an issue due to your mother not admitting (or not knowing) who your actual genetic father is, or in the case of an adoptee perhaps not knowing who either parent is. I have a good friend who found he had a half-brother and a whole exteded half-family he didn't know about after taking a genetic test ("Um, mom...we gotta talk..."). As a half adoptee, I suppose that would be useful to me too (but I'm not "on the market".)

Getting some kind of mutual genetic relation percentage would be useful both for solving the *real* issue this app is trying to solve, and to give the two people in question something of mutual interest to talk about, no matter what the result. A "are you my cousin or can be bump uglies" app just would be awkward.

Thanks but...

[rmdingler]

The likelihood that I'd pick up a cousin at the family reunion is orders of magnitude greater than turning to /. for mating advice.