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Baseball Software Can't Score What Jean Segura Did Friday
JimboFBX writes "Interesting piece of baseball history happened on Friday. Jean Segura of the Milwaukee Brewers stole second, tried to steal third too early, but made it back to second before being tagged. The problem was that teammate Ryan Braun already made it to second on the steal attempt. After tags were applied to both baserunners, Segura started trotting to the dugout before realizing that he wasn't out, Braun was, and his only option was to make it back to first. He then of course proceeded to try to steal second base again. The software for keeping the box score? Doesn't (yet) support someone running backwards on the bases. Looks like that will have to change."
Here is video of the sequence.
I've had this same problem with women. One day you can get to second or even third base, then suddenly you're sent scrambling for first again. Wasn't sure how to score that either, but as long as you're still in the game, it's a win, right? ;)
In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
It's exactly like soccer.
rewriting history since 2109
Segura attempted to steal third base too early, before the pitcher delivered the ball. Thus when Braun and Segura both wound up on 2nd, only Braun was out - Segura's attempted steal wasn't legit (Segura should never have left the base) therefore Braun's position was invalid and he was tagged. I think had Segura waited he would have been tagged out, since if his steal attempt was legit then Braun's position was fine and Segura would have been invalid.
Anyway, while going back to the dugout he realized he wasn't out, and apparently there is an loophole in the rules which allowed his to then run to the closest available base to be safe, which happened to be first.
Segura's on first.
bases, trotting, dugout!? What IS this? Some sort of millitary or pig (of the oinking kind) reference? C'mon... just ONE clue would be nice!
This link someone else posted has a video and a much more comprehensible account of what transpired: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/jean-segura-steals-second-then-steals-first-bizarre-103642855--mlb.html
It's exactly like soccer.
No, if it was like soccer, it would have taken at least 45 minutes to happen, five yellow cards would have been given out, and three fights would have broken out in the stands for no apparent reason.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
yea but the score would be the same. 2-0
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Also: in football,basketball, soccer, volleyball, and all sports played with a ball, you score with the ball and in baseball the ball prevents you from scoring.
In most sports the team is run by a coach; in baseball the team is run by a manager. And only in baseball does the manager or coach wear the same clothing the players do. If you'd ever seen John Madden in his Oakland Raiders uniform,you'd know the reason for this custom.
Now, I've mentioned football. Baseball & football are the two most popular spectator sports in this country. And as such, it seems they ought to be able to tell us something about ourselves and our values.
I enjoy comparing baseball and football:
Baseball is a nineteenth-century pastoral game. Football is a twentieth-century technological struggle.
Baseball is played on a diamond, in a park.The baseball park! Football is played on a gridiron, in a stadium, sometimes called Soldier Field or War Memorial Stadium.
Baseball begins in the spring, the season of new life. Football begins in the fall, when everything's dying.
In football you wear a helmet. In baseball you wear a cap.
Football is concerned with downs - what down is it? Baseball is concerned with ups - who's up?
In football you receive a penalty. In baseball you make an error.
In football the specialist comes in to kick. In baseball the specialist comes in to relieve somebody.
Football has hitting, clipping, spearing, piling on, personal fouls, late hitting and unnecessary roughness. Baseball has the sacrifice.
Football is played in any kind of weather: rain, snow, sleet, hail, fog... In baseball, if it rains, we don't go out to play.
Baseball has the seventh inning stretch. Football has the two minute warning.
Baseball has no time limit: we don't know when it's gonna end - might have extra innings. Football is rigidly timed, and it will end even if we've got to go to sudden death.
In baseball, during the game, in the stands, there's kind of a picnic feeling; emotions may run high or low, but there's not too much unpleasantness. In football, during the game in the stands, you can be sure that at least twenty-seven times you're capable of taking the life of a fellow human being.
And finally, the objectives of the two games are completely different:
In football the object is for the quarterback, also known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! - I hope I'll be safe at home! - George Carlin
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor7.shtml
George Carlin - “Baseball is the only major sport that appears backward in a mirror”
Since when could they score twice in 45 minutes in soccer?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
And the untouched baserunner would have flopped to the ground clutching his shin and grimacing.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Are you sure? Can I please get a source on that?
The following links says otherwise. (Though admittedly they are unreferenced and generally not trust-worthy).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA4LcsyczA8
No, it's just not a good idea to do from second base where a right-handed pitcher can easily see you leading off and stealing. That also depends on whether the pitcher is throwing from the wind-up or the stretch. Typically, a pitcher delivers from the stretch with runners on base, as the motion is quicker and he can more easily see runners on 1st attempting to steal.
I hate replying to my own comment, but throwing from the wind-up allows for a delivery mechanic that is more powerful. More force = faster pitch = faster reaction time required to hit. That's why I like baseball - just the act of delivering a pitch has so much complexity that such slight changes can result in differentiation of game outcomes.
A professor of mine told us why he thought baseball was so frustrating. He was at a bar and a batter was just getting up to base. He went home, turned on the TV, and the same batter us still up.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Also, rule 5.06 applies... http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/ball_in_play_5.jsp
I learned an urban myth as a kid, I guess. Something about Babe Ruth not having to run the bases after he hit another out, he ran them for the crowd.
You have NO idea what you're talking about. Ask Robin Ventura, who hit a ball out of the park with the bases loaded, but was mobbed before he could round second base: he was officially credited with a single, known to Mets fans as "The Grand Slam Single." Game 5 1999 NLCS.
I know you're being funny, but Valencia scored 4 goals in the first 8 minutes of a match earlier today.
Then they scored one goal in the remaining 82 minutes, but whatever. Football owns and you're wrong.
I think clip is available here: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130420&content_id=45278350&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb - you can clearly see the runner trotting off the field before he realizes that he's not out and safely reaches first.
Also, in this year's World Baseball Classic, Italy made it to the second round (top 8 of 16) and the Netherlands reached the semifinals (top 4). Not a bad showing for the Europeans....
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
It takes real courage to admit your own mistakes. You have my respects.
...that JimboFBX needs to get a life. It's fucking Baseball.
The story is about the software used to score games. It appears to have a very difficult to surface bug.
Apart from that, you're an idiot. It's a game of physics, hundred plus mile an hour fastballs through palmballs. It's Mike Scioscia "smallball" vs. the New York Yankees payroll. It's Spring training vs. World Series vs. World Baseball Classic. It's dirt poor kids in sandlots in the Dominican Republic or Venezuela making it to The Show and becoming national heroes. It's seeing Fernando Valenzuela playing against the Calgary Cannons, fighting his way back into the majors (he made it).
Beats the crap out of shit like the NFL and NBA and there's no cheerleaders or glitzy half-time shows.
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit
It is not against the rules, and I saw it happen, when Willie Davis of the Dodgers stole second against the New York Mets while the pitcher held the ball the entire time. This was way back when the Mets played in the Polo Grounds. Even thought the Mets were bad, it was still not a nice thing to do. It was one of many incidents that has led to my current mantra:
"If the Dodgers lose, it was a good day in baseball"
It takes real courage to admit your own mistakes. You have my respects.
Thanks, it's my first. There was one other time in my life where I thought I made a mistake, fortunately it turned out I was wrong! :^)
This is the software that codes those records for storage. "Scoring" in baseball in this sense means compiling the records of what happened in the game, the kind of stuff you see printed in a newspaper box score and stored in game databases.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
No, that's what retarded people think "understanding baseball" means. The rule book is actually littered with dozens of complications: ground rule double, infield fly rule, fourth-out rule, etc. The basics of the game are simple, but there are a lot of corner cases in unusual situations, including the one this article is talking about.
Was this guy in the book? My great grand uncle.
The game was tied 2–2, going into the top of the 15th inning, until Mets pitcher Octavio Dotel gave up an RBI triple to Keith Lockhart, giving the Braves a 3–2 lead. In the bottom of the 15th inning, the Mets loaded the bases against Braves relief pitcher Kevin McGlinchy. Mets catcher Todd Pratt drew a bases loaded walk, tying the score 3–3.
The next batter was Mets third baseman Robin Ventura. Ventura crushed the 2–1 pitch over the wall in right-center for an ostensible grand slam, winning the game for the Mets and driving the Mets players and fans into a frenzied celebration. Ventura, however, never reached second base as Todd Pratt, the runner who was on first, picked up Ventura in celebration. Subsequently, Ventura was mobbed by his teammates, never finishing his trot around the bases. Because he failed to touch all four bases, the hit was officially scored a single. Roger Cedeño, the runner on third at the time, was ruled the only runner to have crossed home plate before the on-field celebration began and the Mets were awarded a 4-3 victory. Thus, Ventura was only credited with a single and one RBI. As a result, there had never been an official walk-off grand slam in MLB postseason history until Nelson Cruz hit one to allow the Texas Rangers to beat the Detroit Tigers 7–3 in Game 2 of the American League Championship Series on October 10, 2011.
And the video on MLB.com http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13062971
From what I understand of the link: Segura made multiple minor league baserunning mistakes in this play.
Segura was leading off second base and could have attempted to steal third base regardless if the pitcher threw the ball home or not, he just made his first baserunning mistake and went too early for third and saw that the pitcher could have easily thrown him out at third, so then Segura ran back to second before the pitcher could attempt to pick him off at second. Braun made it to second base, and in that situation Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time. Segura's second baserunning mistake was when he thought he was tagged out on the play, so he started running back to the dugout. A runner more heads-up would know to just stay on second base. So Segura was still safely within the basepath when he was going back to the dugout (if he was outside of the basepath he'd be out) and was close enough to first base that the first base coach told him to get on first base and stay there. Segura possibly made a third mistake when he was never called out by an umpire, yet he still thought he was out on the play.
Segura later attempted to steal second again, but was caught stealing second base, after he had previously stole second base in the same inning without the team batting around. Very bizarre indeed.
Seems bizarre that Braun is standing on the bag... but he's considered "out". I mean, you can try steal any time the ball is in play, and presumably when the pitcher is getting ready to deliver the ball to the plate, it's considered "in play".
As a San Francisco fan, any day the LA Dodgers or the Dallas Cowboys lose, it's a good day, period.
All bases have to be touched, including home plate. If the hitter is unable to make it, a pinch-runner will have to do it for him, it's happened before.
I've also played in a game where the hitter who hit the homerun was so ecstatic that he missed first base during his homerun trot. On the next plate appearance the pitcher pitched out to first base and the previous batter was called out, so no homerun on that at-bat!
You're right, but the ump didn't see the second tag on Segura while he was calling Braun out. I suppose if the home-plate ump saw it, he could have over-ruled the call. The third baseman didn't need to tag Braun either because he would've been out anyways, the tagging was just for good measure.
When they resumed the infamous "Pine Tar" game, several months later, Billy Martin appealed at each base, claiming that George Brett didn't touch all the bases.
However, the umpires were ready, and had affadavits from the original umpiring crew stating that he had.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
I think clip is available here: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130420&content_id=45278350&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb - you can clearly see the runner trotting off the field before he realizes that he's not out and safely reaches first.
Also, in this year's World Baseball Classic, Italy made it to the second round (top 8 of 16) and the Netherlands reached the semifinals (top 4). Not a bad showing for the Europeans....
Wow, so one day there might be a true international baseball competition. It should be called 'The World Series'.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Football owns and you're wrong.
Yes it does. Soccer, however, is kind of a funny sport.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
You kinda sound like a friend of mine who tries hard to convince me that there are very sophisticated tactics in soccer. I can't help, it may be too subtle for me to notice. For me, soccer is 22 people who try to hit a funny colored guy by kicking a ball at him. Baseball is basically 10+ people standing around sprinkled on a field waiting for one of them finally deciding to end the suspense and throw a ball, with everyone hoping and praying that the other guy with the bat FINALLY manages to hit that ball sensibly so at least SOMETHING happens that might have the slight chance to be interesting for a change.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time.
Is that the Ball-y Exclusion Principle?
Estás Segura?
Sports is for jocks, the sworn enemy of nerds.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
No, that's the groupee.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Naturally
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Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
No. It's a lot simpler than that, since you've kinda mashed the force rule (which doesn't apply here) together with base stealing into something that's incorrect. And then you said that some things were illegitimate or invalid, none of which were. In fact, ironically, you missed commenting on the only invalid action that actually took place in all of this.
The reason Braun was out is simple: you can't steal an occupied base (see 7.01 and 7.03). Because nothing was forcing Segura to leave second base and he failed to make it to third base, he was never considered to have vacated second base. As a result, Braun had no claim to second base, so he was out as soon as he was tagged. Nothing more.
The reason Segura could go to first was simply because it was vacant and he didn't break the rule (7.08i) that prohibits going in reverse to "confus[e] the defense or mak[e] a travesty of the game" (apparently some runners on second used to run back to first to give the runner on third a chance to steal home). Nothing more, and certainly not a rule that allows a runner to "run to the closest available base to be safe".
Regarding Segura stealing "too early", that has nothing to do with the rules and everything to do with it being a poor judgment call on his part, since it gave the pitcher the opportunity to throw the ball to the third basemen, thus making it likely that Segura would get picked off. Had he waited until the pitcher committed to the pitch (as per your hypothetical situation), I can see three possible outcomes:
1) The pitcher could have balked before completing the pitch, in which case Braun and Segura would be advanced automatically to second and third bases, respectively, and we would have gotten none of the excitement.
2) The batter could have hit the ball, in which case he would have created a force play. As such, Braun would have been forced to second, who would, in turn, force Segura to third. If the same scenario that we saw then played out, Segura would be out and Braun would be safe, since Segura would have been compelled to vacate second base by the force play while Braun would be entitled to it.
3) The batter could have not hit the ball, in which case we'd be left with the same situation that actually played out: Braun would be out since he can't advance to an occupied base.
The only thing I haven't covered at this point is the one invalid action that actually took place: Segura was tagged out while not touching a base, but no one noticed it at the time. If you review the video, you'll see that Segura gets tagged while on second base (he's safe), Braun gets tagged while on second base (he's out since he's not entitled to be on second base), and then Segura gets tagged while not touching second base (he should be out, but isn't, since no one noticed that he wasn't touching the base). As such, the whole thing with him trotting back to first base never should have happened at all, since he was already out for the most mundane reason imaginable: he wasn't careful and got tagged while off the base.
From what I understand of the link: Segura made multiple minor league baserunning mistakes in this play. Segura was leading off second base and could have attempted to steal third base regardless if the pitcher threw the ball home or not, he just made his first baserunning mistake and went too early for third and saw that the pitcher could have easily thrown him out at third, so then Segura ran back to second before the pitcher could attempt to pick him off at second. Braun made it to second base, and in that situation Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time.
Braun should not be called out. Once you advance, the base is yours. The runner who was previously on the base (Segura) must advance to the next base before being tagged out. You are right about two runners not being allowed on the same base, however it is the lead runner who is to be called out when it happens. This is baseball 101, the sort of call little league umps like myself see all the time. I could give the major league umps some slack since pro players don't make such a rookie mistake hardly ever, but it still doesn't excuse the fact this is very basic rules knowledge in the game.
Incidently, once Braun takes second, Segura can be forced out by tagging the ball at third - no need to chase him down.
I'm amazed the major league umps missed this.
Yup. Though my boss actually didn't like it much when I asked him "Still having sex or already playing golf". Because... well, he did.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Had to reply as it reminds me of an old joke: Whar's the difference between rugby and football ? Football is 11 players pretending they're injured, rugby is 15 players pretending they're not. ;)
while (true != false) process_more_stupid_code();