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Baseball Software Can't Score What Jean Segura Did Friday
JimboFBX writes "Interesting piece of baseball history happened on Friday. Jean Segura of the Milwaukee Brewers stole second, tried to steal third too early, but made it back to second before being tagged. The problem was that teammate Ryan Braun already made it to second on the steal attempt. After tags were applied to both baserunners, Segura started trotting to the dugout before realizing that he wasn't out, Braun was, and his only option was to make it back to first. He then of course proceeded to try to steal second base again. The software for keeping the box score? Doesn't (yet) support someone running backwards on the bases. Looks like that will have to change."
Here is video of the sequence.
I've had this same problem with women. One day you can get to second or even third base, then suddenly you're sent scrambling for first again. Wasn't sure how to score that either, but as long as you're still in the game, it's a win, right? ;)
In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
A treasury of wacky baseball rules situations, now out of print (watch out for more recent titles with the same name, chances are it's a completely different book).
I remember getting approx. 0 percent right.
He never left the base path... so he in fact, wasn't out. More info is available here: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/jean-segura-steals-second-then-steals-first-bizarre-103642855--mlb.html
It's fucking Baseball. Seriously, not News for Nerds *or* Stuff that Matters.
Ahem.
It's exactly like soccer.
rewriting history since 2109
Segura attempted to steal third base too early, before the pitcher delivered the ball. Thus when Braun and Segura both wound up on 2nd, only Braun was out - Segura's attempted steal wasn't legit (Segura should never have left the base) therefore Braun's position was invalid and he was tagged. I think had Segura waited he would have been tagged out, since if his steal attempt was legit then Braun's position was fine and Segura would have been invalid.
Anyway, while going back to the dugout he realized he wasn't out, and apparently there is an loophole in the rules which allowed his to then run to the closest available base to be safe, which happened to be first.
This is one of the reasons you should make sure that users can manually edit things, even if they are fully automated.
Yes, this allows users to break stuff but then it's their responsibility. More importantly it allows people to work around the system and solve unforeseen problems.
Segura's on first.
bases, trotting, dugout!? What IS this? Some sort of millitary or pig (of the oinking kind) reference? C'mon... just ONE clue would be nice!
This link someone else posted has a video and a much more comprehensible account of what transpired: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/jean-segura-steals-second-then-steals-first-bizarre-103642855--mlb.html
It's exactly like soccer.
No, if it was like soccer, it would have taken at least 45 minutes to happen, five yellow cards would have been given out, and three fights would have broken out in the stands for no apparent reason.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
yea but the score would be the same. 2-0
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Also: in football,basketball, soccer, volleyball, and all sports played with a ball, you score with the ball and in baseball the ball prevents you from scoring.
In most sports the team is run by a coach; in baseball the team is run by a manager. And only in baseball does the manager or coach wear the same clothing the players do. If you'd ever seen John Madden in his Oakland Raiders uniform,you'd know the reason for this custom.
Now, I've mentioned football. Baseball & football are the two most popular spectator sports in this country. And as such, it seems they ought to be able to tell us something about ourselves and our values.
I enjoy comparing baseball and football:
Baseball is a nineteenth-century pastoral game. Football is a twentieth-century technological struggle.
Baseball is played on a diamond, in a park.The baseball park! Football is played on a gridiron, in a stadium, sometimes called Soldier Field or War Memorial Stadium.
Baseball begins in the spring, the season of new life. Football begins in the fall, when everything's dying.
In football you wear a helmet. In baseball you wear a cap.
Football is concerned with downs - what down is it? Baseball is concerned with ups - who's up?
In football you receive a penalty. In baseball you make an error.
In football the specialist comes in to kick. In baseball the specialist comes in to relieve somebody.
Football has hitting, clipping, spearing, piling on, personal fouls, late hitting and unnecessary roughness. Baseball has the sacrifice.
Football is played in any kind of weather: rain, snow, sleet, hail, fog... In baseball, if it rains, we don't go out to play.
Baseball has the seventh inning stretch. Football has the two minute warning.
Baseball has no time limit: we don't know when it's gonna end - might have extra innings. Football is rigidly timed, and it will end even if we've got to go to sudden death.
In baseball, during the game, in the stands, there's kind of a picnic feeling; emotions may run high or low, but there's not too much unpleasantness. In football, during the game in the stands, you can be sure that at least twenty-seven times you're capable of taking the life of a fellow human being.
And finally, the objectives of the two games are completely different:
In football the object is for the quarterback, also known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! - I hope I'll be safe at home! - George Carlin
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor7.shtml
George Carlin - “Baseball is the only major sport that appears backward in a mirror”
... Who's on first?
I don't know.
#DeleteChrome
bases, trotting, dugout!? What IS this? Some sort of millitary or pig (of the oinking kind) reference? C'mon... just ONE clue would be nice!
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=baseball+trotting+dugout
#DeleteChrome
Thanks. Not the AC, but was in the same situation.
Nomen est omen. Of course Segura finds a way to be safe.
To quote professor Frink, "Baseball is a game played by the dextrous, but only understood by the pointdexterous."
Unfortunately, I couldn't find a Youtube clip to link to. The episode is "MoneyBart" (Season 22, Episode 3).
One guy tried to run along three sides of a square and realized he wouldn't make it. He turned back to the second corner from where he started, but that was occupied by some other guy who had come running after him. It looked like both of them were out of the game, but due to an obscure ruling he had the option of moving to the first corner.
I know nothing about baseball either, but I think that's the main idea.
Since when could they score twice in 45 minutes in soccer?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
And the untouched baserunner would have flopped to the ground clutching his shin and grimacing.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Is it against the rules for the runner to steal a base before a pitcher delivers? I find that strange because the pitcher can throw to the 2nd/1st baseman before they deliver the pitch to earn an out... why shouldn't a runner have the same opportunity ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA4LcsyczA8
No, it's just not a good idea to do from second base where a right-handed pitcher can easily see you leading off and stealing. That also depends on whether the pitcher is throwing from the wind-up or the stretch. Typically, a pitcher delivers from the stretch with runners on base, as the motion is quicker and he can more easily see runners on 1st attempting to steal.
Everybody knows what an asterisk is for.
I hate replying to my own comment, but throwing from the wind-up allows for a delivery mechanic that is more powerful. More force = faster pitch = faster reaction time required to hit. That's why I like baseball - just the act of delivering a pitch has so much complexity that such slight changes can result in differentiation of game outcomes.
Record keeping. Did you think that it was all passed down as oral tradition?
figgers it has to happen in a cubs game when the cubs play odd stuff happens in the games.
A professor of mine told us why he thought baseball was so frustrating. He was at a bar and a batter was just getting up to base. He went home, turned on the TV, and the same batter us still up.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
they should add more video replay when updating the software.
For real. There's probably a cricket game right now that started before that game, is still going on, where the humans that are there don't really know why they're even there let alone understand it, and no one is watching on TV/internet either... That said, I strongly dislike baseball and absolutely hate cricket :)
la seguridad por oscuridad
Inheritance is the sincerest form of nepotism.
What does a software package that scores a game have to do with record keeping.
If you we were talking about record keeping we would be talking about storage, not software.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
YouTube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfTxXYE4yFY
I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
Oh, so it's cricket. Hit ball; Run.
Dear god, wait. You didn't give any indication when to stop running. Do you just keep running until the game is called on account of exhaustion? Holy Hell. No wonder there's no fat guys.
I know you're being funny, but Valencia scored 4 goals in the first 8 minutes of a match earlier today.
Then they scored one goal in the remaining 82 minutes, but whatever. Football owns and you're wrong.
No, I Don't Know's on third. What's on second.
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain. --Friederich Schiller
I think clip is available here: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130420&content_id=45278350&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb - you can clearly see the runner trotting off the field before he realizes that he's not out and safely reaches first.
Also, in this year's World Baseball Classic, Italy made it to the second round (top 8 of 16) and the Netherlands reached the semifinals (top 4). Not a bad showing for the Europeans....
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
When looking at the video it looks clear to me that BOTH runners were out at second! Sequra tried to steal third but was forced back to second. Braun stole second base. Because this play was not a forced run Sequra had the right to base. Both runners were tagged while they were on second base. That meant Braun was out because he was the one without the right to be there if I'm understanding the rules of baseball correctly. Now if you watch the video you'll see that Sequra got up and got tagged again while he was OFF the base. At that point he was also out. The best thing that could have been done was for them both to stay on the base and let the umpire call who was out and who had the right to the base.
This whole issue about a loophole in the rules allowing him to go back to first is a moot point because it seems clear from the video he was not on the base when he got tagged the second time.
...that JimboFBX needs to get a life. It's fucking Baseball.
The story is about the software used to score games. It appears to have a very difficult to surface bug.
Apart from that, you're an idiot. It's a game of physics, hundred plus mile an hour fastballs through palmballs. It's Mike Scioscia "smallball" vs. the New York Yankees payroll. It's Spring training vs. World Series vs. World Baseball Classic. It's dirt poor kids in sandlots in the Dominican Republic or Venezuela making it to The Show and becoming national heroes. It's seeing Fernando Valenzuela playing against the Calgary Cannons, fighting his way back into the majors (he made it).
Beats the crap out of shit like the NFL and NBA and there's no cheerleaders or glitzy half-time shows.
"Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit
"Segura started trotting to the dugout before realizing that he wasn't out, Braun was, and his only option was to make it back to first."
Sounds like he should be out automatically for trotting to the dugout and then going to first.
It is not against the rules, and I saw it happen, when Willie Davis of the Dodgers stole second against the New York Mets while the pitcher held the ball the entire time. This was way back when the Mets played in the Polo Grounds. Even thought the Mets were bad, it was still not a nice thing to do. It was one of many incidents that has led to my current mantra:
"If the Dodgers lose, it was a good day in baseball"
This is the software that codes those records for storage. "Scoring" in baseball in this sense means compiling the records of what happened in the game, the kind of stuff you see printed in a newspaper box score and stored in game databases.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
No, that's what retarded people think "understanding baseball" means. The rule book is actually littered with dozens of complications: ground rule double, infield fly rule, fourth-out rule, etc. The basics of the game are simple, but there are a lot of corner cases in unusual situations, including the one this article is talking about.
From what I understand of the link: Segura made multiple minor league baserunning mistakes in this play.
Segura was leading off second base and could have attempted to steal third base regardless if the pitcher threw the ball home or not, he just made his first baserunning mistake and went too early for third and saw that the pitcher could have easily thrown him out at third, so then Segura ran back to second before the pitcher could attempt to pick him off at second. Braun made it to second base, and in that situation Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time. Segura's second baserunning mistake was when he thought he was tagged out on the play, so he started running back to the dugout. A runner more heads-up would know to just stay on second base. So Segura was still safely within the basepath when he was going back to the dugout (if he was outside of the basepath he'd be out) and was close enough to first base that the first base coach told him to get on first base and stay there. Segura possibly made a third mistake when he was never called out by an umpire, yet he still thought he was out on the play.
Segura later attempted to steal second again, but was caught stealing second base, after he had previously stole second base in the same inning without the team batting around. Very bizarre indeed.
Seems bizarre that Braun is standing on the bag... but he's considered "out". I mean, you can try steal any time the ball is in play, and presumably when the pitcher is getting ready to deliver the ball to the plate, it's considered "in play".
As a San Francisco fan, any day the LA Dodgers or the Dallas Cowboys lose, it's a good day, period.
You're right, but the ump didn't see the second tag on Segura while he was calling Braun out. I suppose if the home-plate ump saw it, he could have over-ruled the call. The third baseman didn't need to tag Braun either because he would've been out anyways, the tagging was just for good measure.
Braun was out because you aren't allowed to pass a baserunner. So the minute they were in the same place he was out. But Segura thought he was out and started walking off the field. No one tagged him at that point though and he was near ehough to first base that by the time someone figured it out he got there before anyone tagged him.
But then he tried to steal second again and got caught, double idiot
I think clip is available here: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130420&content_id=45278350&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb - you can clearly see the runner trotting off the field before he realizes that he's not out and safely reaches first.
Also, in this year's World Baseball Classic, Italy made it to the second round (top 8 of 16) and the Netherlands reached the semifinals (top 4). Not a bad showing for the Europeans....
Wow, so one day there might be a true international baseball competition. It should be called 'The World Series'.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
Football owns and you're wrong.
Yes it does. Soccer, however, is kind of a funny sport.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
One guy tried to run along three sides of a square and realized he wouldn't make it. He turned back to the second corner from where he started, but that was occupied by some other guy who had come running after him. It looked like both of them were out of the game, but due to an obscure ruling he had the option of moving to the first corner. I know nothing about baseball either, but I think that's the main idea.
Funny, but you're a little late. The naive bumpkin interpreting a sporting event shtick is at least 60 years old.
I am not a crackpot.
If they're playing against our national team, they can. Easily so.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
If you haven't actually heard Carlin deliver this bit, it's merely interesting. I've heard him deliver it, and at least half the value is in his intonation. Dig up a link if you can find it. Left as an exercise to the reader.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
You kinda sound like a friend of mine who tries hard to convince me that there are very sophisticated tactics in soccer. I can't help, it may be too subtle for me to notice. For me, soccer is 22 people who try to hit a funny colored guy by kicking a ball at him. Baseball is basically 10+ people standing around sprinkled on a field waiting for one of them finally deciding to end the suspense and throw a ball, with everyone hoping and praying that the other guy with the bat FINALLY manages to hit that ball sensibly so at least SOMETHING happens that might have the slight chance to be interesting for a change.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Of course, there's an updated version of it, starring Dubja and Condi.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Huh? So when is a nipple supposed to slip out of something? After all, that's why people watch that crap!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time.
Is that the Ball-y Exclusion Principle?
As someone else pointed out (and on the video), Segura stayed on the basepath.
This is wrong. It has nothing to do with WHEN Segura attempted the steal. All that matters is that he was the lead runner. The lead runner is always safe if there are 2 runners on a base and they are both tagged.
There is no such thing as a steal not being "legit." This isn't little league.
I know no one bothers to RTFA, but in this case if you WTFV you would have seen that Segura never was more than a foot or two off the base path at any time during this whole ordeal.
He stepped slight inside the infield grass running back to 2nd, but still easily within the acceptable limits of the imaginary basepath, and he stepped a few steps off of 1st as if he was going to the dugout but was stopped by the 1st base coach.
I had no idea you could go backwards on the bases.
As a software engineer, I blame it on poor requirement documents and insufficient use case permutations.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Estás Segura?
Sports is for jocks, the sworn enemy of nerds.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
From what I can tell, the lead runner always has priority at a base. It didn't matter that Segura tried to steal third base, the fact that he was the lead runner and he and Braun ended up at the same base meant that when both were tagged, Braun was out. Had he passed Braun, that would have made Braun out as well.
But Segura didn't know the rule and started to return to the dugout. But once he realized his mistake, he couldn't return to 2nd base because the fielder at 2nd had the ball and would tag him out. So he ran back to first base. He was allowed to do this since Braun was out and no one was occupying it. There is, apparently, no rule against running the bases backwards. Any runner that you pass will be out, but you're allowed to do it.
You were close, but Segura could have simply remained on 2nd base. As the lead runner, he was entitled to it. Braun, as the tail runner, was responsible for staying behind Segura. It was Segura's ignorance of the rules that led to him stealing first. I'm actually really curious whether he was credited with a stolen base (for stealing 1st) or not and, had he been successful with the 2nd steal of 2nd base, whether he would have received credit for that stolen base too.
If you want to see the tactics in soccer, just start watching the players without the ball. Their movement is where most of the tactics come into play. The player with the ball is primarily just reacting to the tactics of his teammates and the defenders.
He never left the base path, therefor he can't be called out.
Baseball scoring isn't just the two teams points at the end of the game. Take a look at a baseball scoresheet, it's not something that just records who got points when. Like football passing and rushing yards, receptions, completions, picks, sacks, etc, baseball records where each player ends up at the end of each play. It started simple, just tracking whether you hit a single, double, triple, home run, ground rule double, in field home run, and how many RBI for the batting team, and catches, outs, errors, strike/ball for the throwing team. It's way more complex than that now.
If you thought the Blernsball scoresheet was complicated, you haven't looked at a real baseball one.
I can be. As long as you don't try to convince me sports that consist to 99% of standing around is actually fun.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It was stupid officiating by the umpires why would somebody assume that the score keepers or software would need to account for this? They should have correctly called them both out because they were both tagged presumably. I've watched the video but this is one of those where the officials f*d up situations. It's kind of like George Brett and the whole Pine Tar shimozzle... where they actually had to restart a game after the League office overruled the officials on the field. How do you score that one? 5-4 win for the Royals over the Yankees. I remember the vid of Brett coming barrelling out of the dugout after being called out.. It was a hilarious acting job. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrTYdlaqtxE
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
It's a game of physics, hundred plus mile an hour fastballs through palmballs. It's Mike Scioscia "smallball" vs. the New York Yankees payroll. It's Spring training vs. World Series vs. World Baseball Classic. It's dirt poor kids in sandlots in the Dominican Republic or Venezuela making it to The Show and becoming national heroes. It's seeing Fernando Valenzuela playing against the Calgary Cannons, fighting his way back into the majors (he made it).
Beats the crap out of shit like the NFL and NBA and there's no cheerleaders or glitzy half-time shows.
To all that I simply reply, "Zzzzzzzzz". I feel the same about football and basketball.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Actually, according to the rule linked to in TFA, the following runner is not out until tagged.
No, that's the groupee.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Naturally
--
Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
Besides the official warnings being referred to as "yellow cards", exactly how is that different than any random game at Yankee Stadium. ;-)
I saw that in the rules after I had posted. Alas, it hasn't always been so. So what then if the runner isn't tagged? I'd like to see that stalemate, the umpires might actually have to make a decision during the standoff while the runners stand on the base and the fielders stand in the basepath. If the runners attempt to run to the next base, they'd have to coordinate so that the first runner isn't passed by the second runner, or the second runner is out! What bloopers that would be, seems like my sister's softball games that went 49-0 and ended in the 5th inning due to the 10-run mercy rule.
I'm not sure what you mean by "legit". Segura would have been safe on second because he was the lead runner. The only exception is that in a force situation, a runner cannot be safe on a base he is forced off of.
Interestingly, the ump atually called the play wrong. The whole "the software can't handle it" situation really shouldn't have happened. If you watch the replay closely (or listen to the commentators), you'll notice that Segura was actually tagged a second time right after he took his foot off second to run back to the dugout.
I'm not sure exactly why the umpire called Braun out. Even if Braun and Segura had both been on second in such a way that Braun hadn't passed Segura, Braun would have still been out because only the lead runner is safe when two runners are on a base (except if the lead has been forced off that base, in which case the trailing runner is safe) and Braun had been tagged.
I'd be interested to find out from an umpire whether Braun would have been considered to have passed Segura (as a hypothetical, I mean, where they were both in the same positions but no one tagged them). Technically, I think Braun had passed Segura, but might an umpire use his judgement in saying "well, Braun is on the outside part of the base, and Segura is on the inside, and the base line sort of turns 90 degrees, so is he really past?"
No. It's a lot simpler than that, since you've kinda mashed the force rule (which doesn't apply here) together with base stealing into something that's incorrect. And then you said that some things were illegitimate or invalid, none of which were. In fact, ironically, you missed commenting on the only invalid action that actually took place in all of this.
The reason Braun was out is simple: you can't steal an occupied base (see 7.01 and 7.03). Because nothing was forcing Segura to leave second base and he failed to make it to third base, he was never considered to have vacated second base. As a result, Braun had no claim to second base, so he was out as soon as he was tagged. Nothing more.
The reason Segura could go to first was simply because it was vacant and he didn't break the rule (7.08i) that prohibits going in reverse to "confus[e] the defense or mak[e] a travesty of the game" (apparently some runners on second used to run back to first to give the runner on third a chance to steal home). Nothing more, and certainly not a rule that allows a runner to "run to the closest available base to be safe".
Regarding Segura stealing "too early", that has nothing to do with the rules and everything to do with it being a poor judgment call on his part, since it gave the pitcher the opportunity to throw the ball to the third basemen, thus making it likely that Segura would get picked off. Had he waited until the pitcher committed to the pitch (as per your hypothetical situation), I can see three possible outcomes:
1) The pitcher could have balked before completing the pitch, in which case Braun and Segura would be advanced automatically to second and third bases, respectively, and we would have gotten none of the excitement.
2) The batter could have hit the ball, in which case he would have created a force play. As such, Braun would have been forced to second, who would, in turn, force Segura to third. If the same scenario that we saw then played out, Segura would be out and Braun would be safe, since Segura would have been compelled to vacate second base by the force play while Braun would be entitled to it.
3) The batter could have not hit the ball, in which case we'd be left with the same situation that actually played out: Braun would be out since he can't advance to an occupied base.
The only thing I haven't covered at this point is the one invalid action that actually took place: Segura was tagged out while not touching a base, but no one noticed it at the time. If you review the video, you'll see that Segura gets tagged while on second base (he's safe), Braun gets tagged while on second base (he's out since he's not entitled to be on second base), and then Segura gets tagged while not touching second base (he should be out, but isn't, since no one noticed that he wasn't touching the base). As such, the whole thing with him trotting back to first base never should have happened at all, since he was already out for the most mundane reason imaginable: he wasn't careful and got tagged while off the base.
No, exactly like football, the sport that actually involves the whole world when it uses the word world for the name of a competition.
Braun was out because he tried to steal an occupied base. It had nothing to do with the timing and everything to do with the fact that a base is considered occupied until:
1) The runner on it advances (which Segura failed to do)
2) The runner on it is declared out (which didn't happen with Segura)
3) The runner on it is forced to vacate it (e.g. a force play, which didn't happen here)
From a technical perspective those antics with the failed steal of third base had no impact on things, so what happened here is no different than if Segura had just stood there at second base while Braun "stole" the base he was on. Viewed in that light, it's obvious why Braun was declared out.
Considering that the word soccer originates in the country of origin for the sport (England), why is it wrong for Americans to use that name for the sport just because the English no longer use it? The word "soccer" derives from the term "Association Football" and was used originally in England to distinguish between Association Football and the various other forms of football that were still played there at the time. Since then, I believe that all other forms of football, except for Rugby, have died out in England and the English have adopted the word used by other countries that never developed any of their own versions of football and instead play the English sport. In the U.S., the word football was applied to a sport that was more popular here, so the term "soccer" continued to apply to the game played by the Association Football rules.
American Football, Association Football, Rugby, Australian Football (and probably several other variants) are all descended from the same original English sport.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Well, in comparison to a game at Yankee Stadium, soccer is different in particular in that the soccer game involves less use of performance enhancing drugs.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
ah... thanks for the explanation. Information on Slashdot... who'd have thunk it.
Football, as in the american version of it, owns? A bunch of armored gimps charging each other, then pause for 10 minutes for bickering or looking at video?
I don't get how so little action can be stretched out to take that much time. Granted that's true about soccer too, which tends to be boring unless it's a national team match or international league match.
Oh, and real men don't wear armor Rugby
... whatever
I'm not a baseball fan, though I can appreciate the sports difficulties having played my own fair share of sandlot games.
Basketball I don't understand as a sport. Well, let me modify that. I understand basketball as a sport if played by people like me ... 5' 6" white guy who can't jump.
I dont' see professional or collage basketball as a sport. Its a 'team' of people ... all of which can jump from half court and drop the ball in the goal without completely extending their arm to its full reach. Its like me calling it a sport as I stand over the trashcan and slam dunk spit balls.
In case you haven't noticed the other sports though. Cheerleaders in pro's are pretty fucking ugly. Mostly past their prime women who haven't realized they haven't been hot for years, mostly just spackle (sorry makeup) covered dogs. College is only slightly better, there its the not completely used up whores doing it, still beat with the ugly stick, just a few years younger. Women who are actually hot don't have to become cheerleaders to get attention.
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The umps are wrong. Each runner has an entitled base. They are only safe at that base, and no others... If the runner behind you takes your base, you must advance to the next to be safe, you aren't safe anywhere else..
The correct call, Seguro, not the runner from 1st, was out at second. The moment that runner touched 2nd base it was his, seguro's base became 3rd and he's out if tagged anywhere else on the field.
This is very, very clearly spelled out in the rules of baseball. You can't run backwards, it's against the rules, and whoever supervises the umpires needs to pull that entire team in for review and suspension for blowing a series of calls that severely.
From what I understand of the link: Segura made multiple minor league baserunning mistakes in this play. Segura was leading off second base and could have attempted to steal third base regardless if the pitcher threw the ball home or not, he just made his first baserunning mistake and went too early for third and saw that the pitcher could have easily thrown him out at third, so then Segura ran back to second before the pitcher could attempt to pick him off at second. Braun made it to second base, and in that situation Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time.
Braun should not be called out. Once you advance, the base is yours. The runner who was previously on the base (Segura) must advance to the next base before being tagged out. You are right about two runners not being allowed on the same base, however it is the lead runner who is to be called out when it happens. This is baseball 101, the sort of call little league umps like myself see all the time. I could give the major league umps some slack since pro players don't make such a rookie mistake hardly ever, but it still doesn't excuse the fact this is very basic rules knowledge in the game.
Incidently, once Braun takes second, Segura can be forced out by tagging the ball at third - no need to chase him down.
I'm amazed the major league umps missed this.
That play went 1-5-1-2-4
There is no rule against advancing to a base that another runner is entitled to. It just doesn't entitle the trailing runner to the base (so he can still be tagged out) except on a force play. Yahoo sports got that wrong; Braun was not out until tagged. So in your #3 scenario, if Segura reached third, Braun would have been safe at second regardless of whether he reached before or after Segura reached third.
As long as you don't try to convince me sports that consist to 99% of standing around is actually fun.
Like golf...
Rugby isn't intellectual like football.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Billy Beane forever changed the game into a thinking man's vocation. Hitting, throwing, and running is still for jocks, but player value assessment has been taken over by the Bill James' school of thought. Check out the Baseball Abstract.
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The lead runner is out only in the case of a forced run--the same is true with respect to tagging the ball at third. This was not a forced run situation as they were both stealing.
Although it was not passed until 1920, after Schaefer's death, rule 7.08i states that a player is out if "After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out." It is often said that it was passed because of Schaefer's thefts.
The way a baseball infield is designed , the home team dugout is aligned on the right side of the field with first and second base, the visiting team is aligned on the left side of the field with second and third base.
In MLB, there is no requirement for home vs away dugouts. The Brewers' home dugout is by first base. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugout_(baseball)#Teams_and_ballparks_with_home_dugouts_on_the_first_base_side
Yup. Though my boss actually didn't like it much when I asked him "Still having sex or already playing golf". Because... well, he did.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Funny like the World Cup includes more than two countries?
Had to reply as it reminds me of an old joke: Whar's the difference between rugby and football ? Football is 11 players pretending they're injured, rugby is 15 players pretending they're not. ;)
while (true != false) process_more_stupid_code();
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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Baseball software can't score what I did no Friday, either.
Sports is for jocks, the sworn enemy of nerds.
But stats are for nerds, and no game is as stat-happy as baseball.
And it is "Sports are for jocks," unless you are British, in which case, it would be "Sport is for jocks,".
Now playing sports (except as part of required PhysEd courses) or enjoying the experience might be exclusively for jocks. That point is arguable. Rules lawyering isn't for jocks (except Wookies, who always win), as any DnD player will testify.
Yes...except that I already said that. To repeat (emphasis mine):
Because nothing was forcing Segura to leave second base and he failed to make it to third base, he was never considered to have vacated second base. As a result, Braun had no claim to second base, so he was out as soon as he was tagged. Nothing more.
The batter could have not hit the ball, in which case we'd be left with the same situation that actually played out: Braun would be out since he can't advance to an occupied base.
I didn't see a point in spelling out all of the details again in #3 since I had already done so previously in the post, so I merely stated that they were the same as before and then offered an abbreviated take on the details. I figured everyone would understand that he would still need to be tagged before he was out, since I had already said that before and had specified that it was the same situation.
Your hypothetical situation also begs the interesting question of what happens if they tag Braun at second before Segura reaches third? Basically, at what point is Segura considered to have vacated second? Would Braun be out, or would Braun's state be dependent on whether Segura made it to third?
There is, apparently, no rule against running the bases backwards.
It turns out it is against the rules to run the bases in reverse, but only "for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game." In that case, the baserunner is out by Rule 7:08(i).
However, by the same rule, if the runner is decoyed by the defense or the runner is simply confused (as Segura was), the runner can run forwards or in reverse, at his or her own risk.
source
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I wonder why Braun wasn't called safe (he was standing on an unoccupied 2nd base at the time that he had successfully stolen), and Seura wasn't called out (he wasn't on any base because he got caught in a rundown while failing to steal third). It seems to be the more logical outcome of that play.
And I had no idea that you could go back to a previous base.
Sorry, you're wrong. Braun was out because he was tagged while Segura was also standing on 2nd. If Segura had not been standing on the base, Braun would not have been out when he was tagged, regardless of whether Segura had made it safely to 3rd. If two runners are touching a base at the same time, only the lead runner has the right to the base, and only he is safe.
So a situation like this is possible:
1. Segura runs from 2nd toward 3rd.
2. Braun reaches 2nd from 1st.
3. A tag is applied to Braun, but he's on 2nd, so he's safe.
4. The ball is thrown toward 3rd, but Segura is running back toward 2nd.
5. Segura arrives at 2nd.
6. A tag is applied to Segura. Both players are standing on 2nd. Being the lead runner, Segura is safe.
7. A tag is applied to Braun. Being the trailing runner, he is out.
That's actually what happened, minus step 3. Step 3 was just to illustrate that Braun is safe at 2nd until the runner ahead of him is also touching the base.
"Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
Sorry, you're wrong. Braun did not pass Segura. Braun was out because he was tagged out while both players were standing on 2nd. In such a case, only the lead runner has the right to the base.
"Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
No, Braun didn't pass Segura because he didn't try to advance to 3rd.
"Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
You're quite correct, of course. I blame it on my posting at 3AM.
Thanks for the correction!