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Europe Needs Genetically Engineered Crops, Scientists Say
First time accepted submitter Dorianny writes in with a story about the ongoing battle over genetically engineered crops in Europe. "The European Union cannot meet its goals in agricultural policy without embracing genetically engineered crops (GMOs). That's the conclusion of scientists who write in Trends in Plant Science, a Cell Press publication, based on case studies showing that the EU is undermining its own competitiveness in the agricultural sector to its own detriment and that of its humanitarian activities in the developing world. 'Failing such a change, ultimately the EU will become almost entirely dependent on the outside world for food and feed and scientific progress, ironically because the outside world has embraced the technology which is so unpopular in Europe, realizing this is the only way to achieve sustainable agriculture,' said Paul Christou of the University of Lleida-Agrotecnio Center and Institució Catalana de Recerca i Estudis Avançats in Spain."
When the lid is opened there is no way of closing it again.
There are certain technologies mankind is not yet responsible enough to use.
If nuclear power leaves waste for 10000s of years... gene modification does so for the rest of existence.
And no. Cross breeding is not the same as gene modification. There are very few herrings that mate with a tomato IRL.
No one *needs* genetically-engineered crops, they simply result in a higher profit (and possibly various unknown health risks).
EU pays farmers for not growing stuff because it it produces too much food. There have been surpluses for decades, only recently they have been depleted because of the world market.
Yes, obviously there are imports, but only in winter time or for exotic fruits.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
... IP laws where removed so as to prevent the monopolization of species when (not if, look for the literature) genes jump from GMO to naturally occuring varieties.
It is the wholesale rejection of an entire body of science and technology on non-scientific bases that will affect both Europe's ability to contribute to scientific progress in those areas and its ability to produce its own food.
In other words you have confused the direction of the cause and effect relationship between scientific progress and food production in this case.
1. The world, and the EU, produce plenty of food. People in certain areas do not have enough food due to problems in the food distribution system.
2. 90%+ of GMO food is either herbicide resistant or produces its own insecticide. It's focus is not producing more or better food. Yes, this could change some day, but that's how it is and has been for a long time.
"Scientists claim Europe must surrender to Monsanto or starve."
To surrender to a corporate tyrant is just as bad as to surrender to any other sort of tyrant.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Except the people that sell them...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
the EU has a food surplus for decades
First, this guy developed the first transgenic soybean, which has then been sold by Monsanto ( http://www.sciforum.hu/programme/speakers/paul-christou-research-professor-university-of-leida-spain.html ). What else is he gonna say?
Then, there's enough food everywhere for everybody provided : it's seasonal, regional and mostly vegetarian.
Sure, if you want huge steaks for every meal, with tomato salads, mango and strawberries for dessert all year round, you'll need a lot of antibiotics, pesticides, GMO's, oil and water.
Paul Christou
He received a first class honors degree in Chemistry (University of London) followed by a PhD in plant biochemistry (UCL, London) in 1980. Following postdoctoral research at UCL, he joined one of the very first plant biotechnology companies, Cetus Madison Corp (subsequently Agracetus, Inc.) Madison Wisconsin, USA. He led a research group which achieved the first genetically transformed staple crop (soybean). Subsequently his team developed a variety-independent gene transfer method for rice. These two achievements had a significant impact, as the first transgenic soybean on the US and global markets sold by Monsanto was a direct output of his group’s research efforts.
It is the wholesale rejection of an entire body of science and technology on non-scientific bases that will affect both Europe's ability to contribute to scientific progress in those areas and its ability to produce its own food.
Actually that describes the report pretty well. It is blatant scare-mongering by an industry body and the university professor they sponsor.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Problem is complex. There's general fear of anything related with "genetic modification", because of this theme exploited so heavily in tabloids, junk and paperback sci-fi, and by conservative politicans betting heavily on science fearing crowd. And then there's huge greedy corporations like Monsanto, which are blinded by gold rush in this field. Then there's politicians, desperate to have at least some kind of investment in countries, relaxing some rules so far that it's really irresponsible.
In overall, GMO debate has almost same semantics as nuclear one. Done right, this field would really do right for humanity. However, there's that very strong question - can we really do right for humanity? It seems that we as society don't trust ourselves - or current capitalistic system we embrace.
So, this is actually discussion "we don't trust multinational corporations to do theoretically dangerous stuff", not "is GMO good or bad", isn't it? However no one discuss corporations, because it's well...just not worth it. Because when money talks, everyone asks how high to jump (including media).
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
Since 25 years GMOs were tested and not a single case of adverse effects has ever been described. GMOs are not more dangerous than plants coming from classical breeding, actually GMO products are much safer because they are actually being tested. While classic breeding products (even mutagenesis!) are not tested even though it causes massive uncontrolled genetic changes (e.g. jumping genes get activated).
There is also no documentation that organic products are healthier in any way. You can find cancerogenic compounds in many organic products (e.g. aflatoxins) and nobody cares about that because it is "organic".
You should get out of your romantic view of nature, nature is dangerous!
What is interesting is that only people who do not understand anything about biology, plant breeding and GMOs are against GMOs.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with genetically modified food sciences, but you give 'em an inch and they take a mile. If we could trust them to simply improve the size and frequency of fruiting bodies' production then that would be great, but they don't stop there -- Some of these GMO food producers decide that we need to make poisonous plants to prevent bugs from eating them without actual long-term studies to validate their claims of harmlessness -- Scientists don't make conclusions based on lack of evidence. We need proof they're not harmful to us and the environment. We don't have that proof.
It's the unwillingness of people to think clearly that is harming us. We can use SOME types of genetic modifications without using others; However, corporations maximize profits and pundits aren't typically adequately educated, so we end up with people polarized on the issue and no real way forward -- no compromises, no middle ground.
The wholesale rejection is the only option for some if the ones making the modified food say they'll put the poison gene in or you get no GMO at all... The gene splicers are just as much at fault for this, and that's without even delving into BS patent issues and neutered seeds that could lead to even MORE dependence on foreign entities for food.
Be careful when you paint with a wide brush, you may end up with paint in your eyes.
"ironically because the outside world has embraced the technology which is so unpopular in Europe, realizing this is the only way to achieve sustainable agriculture"
What kind of propaganda-soaked, bullshit statement is that? So for the past 4000 years humanity has been performing natural, "unsustainable" agriculture? The whole article reeks so much of bundles of pharmaceutical 100 dollar bills that it stinks.
Well, no surprise here, considering this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/03/wikileaks-us-eu-gm-crops
and this: http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/09/leaked-us-to-start-trade-wars-with-nations-opposed-to-monsanto-gmo-crops-2-2464512.html
According to this cables story, Spain and 'Murrica work closely together to get Europe to adapt GM-crops.
F*** them. They all should choke on their GM shit.
"We need proof they're not harmful to us and the environment. We don't have that proof."
That's why you lobby for solid government agencies who actually do very good job on checking food safety (at least in my country).
You can't ignore food problems with clause "we don't trust corporations". Well, I don't, but what choice we have. It's not like we gonna change capitalism for something workable and better (I believe we can, but that's for another day). We need to lobby and support actually working government institutions to check on corporations. EU has better success in this regard, despite some members being in bed and naked with corps for years (hey UK).
Let's work within system. GMO food can be good, just let's keep pushing stuff we see as necessary for it to work. Just inflicting fear in general public won't work in long term I'm afraid.
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http://www.patentmaps.com/inventor/Paul_Christou_1.html
He does R&D for the big M
It's a huge subsidy, but it also has a crucial strategic value. Without the subsidies, farming in the EU would steadily decline into irrelevance and you become ever more dependent on imports. But food is even more critical than oil. What if there is a drought in the future? Import restrictions? Huge price increases? Shit, suddenly the EU can't feed its own citizens anymore. Other countries can use the EU's dependence on its food imports to exert diplomatic influence, essentially up to the point of blackmail. Take Russia for example. The only reason why it gets away with its subjugation of democracy and freedom of speech is because Europe is hugely dependent on energy imports from Russia. If Europe is not self-sufficient in its food requirements, it opens up another attack vector.
Ohh boy. Please guys, don't fall to their level. GMO is valid technology if applied right, as was genetic selection in the past (your poor man's GMO).
If you don't trust corporations, fine. But if you want to be taken serious in counterargument, please don't use "that's what they said". If you think their assumptions are wrong, please at least explain why.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
There is already today an excess of food production. People do not starve because there is not enough food, they starve because they are not given the food, usually because they are too poor to afford it, or because their supply lines have been cut by wars or embargoes. There is no need to increase world food production, only to get the food to those needing it.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
GMO food can be good, no doubt about it. The problem is that the goal of producer and user are widely different. For the user, increased production is the goal whereas it is only the necessary evil to sell it for the producer.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
One problem "Monsanto"
They produce most of the GMO that people are aware of, are notorious for suppressing any study that they do not like, for not publishing results, for patenting entire plants, for suing poor farmers who never bought their seed, for poisoning the environment .... etc ....
They may not be typical of GMO companies, but they are the poster child and best known, and are the worst possible advert for GMO ....
Puteulanus fenestra mortis
There's also immigration, but that's a moot point.
Some EU countries produce more, some less, both by choice. The newer members on the other hand, those in the former communist block, produce less now, than they did 20 years ago, because it's cheaper to import, than subsidize.
Price is a good indicator for demand, and food prices have been growing in the past decades only because of the growing oil prices, not for any other reason.
Of course nature is dangerous, but not tested? Ever heard of evolution and selection?
Breeding also works since thousands of years and not only 25.
Independant GM research is almost non-existent:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/13/opinion/la-oe-guriansherman-seeds-20110213
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/companies_put_restrictions_on_research_into_gm_crops/2273/
http://earthopensource.org/files/pdfs/GMO_Myths_and_Truths/GMO_Myths_and_Truths_1.3b.pdf
Please stop spreading lies.
Ohh boy. Please guys, don't fall to their level. GMO is valid technology if applied right, as was genetic selection in the past (your poor man's GMO).
If you planted GMO anywhere in Europe you could argue, and win, that the technology was being applied incorrectly. EU farmers are being paid to not use their fields. For a variety of reasons, one of them being price of crops, another being that the soil cannot handle re-sowing of the same crop over and over again.
GMO is not going to fix that, it will make the problem worse. Fertilizer helps, but we'd rather not use that in a high enough degree to make it viable. So the option is to leave fields unused to let the soil recover. This is simple. Farmers in the fucking iron age knew this. This article is a fearmongering attempt because a really big market isn't drinking the kool aid, and Prof. WhatsHisFace is a sad panda.
... whatever
Mega bullshit! Europe is easily able to feed its own 450 million people with traditional crops. Hungary alone is able to feed its own 9.9 million and a further 14 million via exports, even though she has less territory than Maryland. Luckily Hungary has recently put into her national constitution that genetically altered crops are banned. Even if Monsanto bribes the European Union politicians, we will not let GMO into our country. Those lands where they were utilized previously have been torched and plowed over on government decree.
Remain GMO-free if you want to live!
The numbers I found in a quick search suggest that EU-wide there is still a small population growth, but pretty close to zero. The import/export balance (PDF, see graphs on page 2) for raw and processed products combined seems to be roughly zero as well, but in terms of raw materials the EU is still net importing agricultural products. To say Europe is going to "become almost entirely dependent on the outside world" doesn't match these figures though.
Scientists don't make conclusions based on lack of evidence. We need proof they're not harmful to us and the environment. We don't have that proof.
You cannot prove a negative. What you can prove (and what already has been proven) is that all of the GMO crops are safer than peanuts, penicillin, and organic bean sprouts and spinach, and cell phones (GMOs 0 deaths with 100s of millions of exposures over nearly 20 years, the others many thousands of deaths between them due to anaphylactic shock, e. coli, driving-while-texting, etc) .
I am not arguing that there is no risk with GMO technology. What I am saying, however, that the rational approach is to formulate scientific hypotheses regarding risks such that those hypotheses can be tested via either examining existing data or conducting experiements that quantify the risk such that it is possible to determine whether those risks are acceptable based on our best current knowledge.
The "poison" genes you're referencing (e.g., Bt11) are currently based on proteins that are produced by soil bacteria, bacteria naturally found in milk, and other things that humans have been consuming for centuries and that are in many cases applied to organic crops as well. They have also been tested according to both USDA and EPA regulatory standards (in the US, pest control GM traits are regulated by both agencies whereas herbicide tolerance traits are only regulated by the USDA). At this point it is not a question of whether or not they have been tested, but whether they have been tested to a sufficient degree. My personal opinion is that given that they have been tested (both scientifically in controlled experiments and by default through market exposure) far more thoroughly than anything else I consume short of pharmaceuticals, I am OK with them. Beyond my personal comfort level I would challenge anyone to come up with a scientifically defendable justification to require greater testing that would not logically require much greater testing of non-GM foods as well.
The problem is not that there is a lack of "clear thinking" regarding GMOs. The problem is that the ratio of rational thought to irrational thought is unfortunately very small, and the ratio of rational communication vs. irrational communication regarding the issue is even worse. These difficulties are also compounded by the unfortunate fact that many people conflate GMOs with IP laws, religious beliefs, personal philosophy, etc.
People in Europe also eat less than the west-of-the-ponders.
Indeed! Just spray those gmos fields with herbicides! oh wait ..... :/
The bad argument here is to argue that GMO is just like genetic selection, just pushed a bit further.
Of course it is not. Nobody is against genetic selection, neither in Europe not anywhere else.
or do proper crop rotation with crops that help replenish.
And what exactly is wrong with using fertilizer? Even the iron age farmers knew about spreading fertilizer although they mostly referred to it as manure or just shit. But continue down the luddite path if it makes you feel better about yourselves.
Over-fertilization pollutes the groundwater. This has already been problematic and a reason for agricultural reform in the Netherlands.
It will happen.
Well, the guy is certainly 'pro' GM foods, as you would expect from his background, but 'OMG Europe won't be able to feed itself'?
Hardly. We've been paying farmers a fortune for years to let good farmland stand idle... The problem is not with the crops, it's the crazy CAP which distorts everything, including world trade. For example:
"In the autumn of 2007 the European Commission was reported to be considering a proposal to limit subsidies to individual landowners and factory farms to around £300,000. Some factory farms and large estates would be affected in the UK, as there are over 20 farms/estates which receive £500,000 or more from the EU."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy
Anyway, back on topic, it seems to me that the GM debate is like the nuclear one. On one side, the promise of a bright, science-led future, (limitless clean energy, cheap disease-free crops) with real or potential problems often glossed over or ignored, on the other the NIMBYs and hand-wavers with a "we're all gonna die" reflex. Where's the reasoned debate?
People don't trust the nuclear industry for a good reason, (and I say this as a firm believer in the promise of nuclear power over alternatives). It's not just about Three Mile Island etc, it's about how too many people have systematically covered-up shoddy work over the years, often to save or make more money.
These people should have been severly punished; none were. Seen any TEPCO Execs hanging from a tree recently? Nope.
It's the same with GM food. I'm sure the Scientists are sincere and have done great work, including field tests. But can we trust the agribusiness? Well, recent history (especially in Europe) says no. But it's too late anyway - even food advertsied as 'GM free' is not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_the_release_of_genetic_modified_organisms
Remember, this is also the same industry that brought you horsemeat labelled as beef. Oh yeah, and even when it really is beef, remember BSE ('mad cow' disease?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_spongiform_encephalopathy
So, do I trust the technology? Yes. Do I trust the agribusiness? Hell no.
So this guy says we need to make more food? Is this so it can just be thrown away like we do currently? http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/half-of-the-worlds-food-is-just-thrown-away-8445261.html
Maybe if we did a better job of using what we make, this would be a total non problem (not that it is anyway, unless your a Monsanto salesman)
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
No need to look very far for the funding, just go to the journal site:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/13601385
The ad on the page has consistently Life Technologies GeneArt Strings DNA fragments "Synthetic Genes Ready to Clone—Affordable for Every Lab".
There is a bit of vested interest for that particular Journal to publish papers promoting genetic engineering:
It doesn't hurt that there is going to be a genetic engineering conference this June, so you would also want to prime the pump to fill up the conference hall. Nothing like a good controversy to sell tickets.
Not sure if that is true, this winter has been a long one the delay of seasonal weather due to the jet stream having been low longer than usual has caused a few problems. It finally moved northwards about 2 weeks ago.
For cattle and sheep apart from the many sheep dead in the UK frozen to death right in the lambing season there has been problems with grazing, the grass has been fairly dormant leaving farmers in a dire situation without feed or money to buy feed for their herds. In Ireland there has been a help line set up to help farmers who cannot feed their animals. For crops the persisting frosts have put many crops and plants around a month behind. The last couple of years the summer temperature and rainfall has lowered yields too.
It's pretty essential that the jet stream rise northwards for europe to experience its 'normal' climate. Without the warm air keeping back the cold air, you don't get the germination temperatures needed.
Natural selection should favour plants most suited to the climate that they grow in, as they will be the plants that grow to maturity and set seed which can be planted the following year. Wouldn't Monsanto seed policy of not allowing seed collection work against natural selection, so the seed available will be the seed Monsanto has decided has optimal characteristics and if they are wrong well that could be a major problem.
Fairly recently Colmans mustard crops were found to have falling yields and it turned out that they needed diverse seeds to get high yields luckily they do keep seed from past years and were able to reverse the trend but without that they were in big trouble.
I don't think Monsanto has it's GM Seed banned in Europe it just isn't welcomed by Europeans and if a product has GM on it, it is labeled as such and it doesn't sell. Fortunately for Monsanto the FDA refuses to label GM food in the USA, if that changed Monsanto likely would be in trouble as consumers boycotted their products.
why wouldn't it be the same as in Europe?
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
In Europe immigration is a problem because invasion and subversion by immigration and reproduction is an actual thing there. In the US it's a strawman for now, but in Europe it is a real and present danger. France is having issues dealing with a large fraction of the populace that demands Sharia [Muslim jurisprudence] be law, and uses Sharia in practice as law despite the official secular legal process.
I wouldn't have a problem with this but that the Muslim community doesn't seem to have a mechanism in place to moderate their non-secular idiots who feel it is their manifest destiny to kill everybody who doesn't agree with them, and their nonfriendly positions on gays, women, liquor and civil rights.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
"The numbers I found in a quick search suggest that EU-wide there is still a small population growth [wikipedia.org], but pretty close to zero."
We grow by acquiring new countries as members, it's much easier that way.
And we don't like the Rolling Stones (they're English), we get what we want, not what we need. :-)
The GMO producing companies are the most evil entities in the world.
They keep suing farmers when the wind blows their cr@p on other people's land. The fertilizers that keep their seeds going are a natural disaster for the soil, for the animals and all other crops in the vicinity. They forced a law in the US that doesn't even *allow* people to find out whether the product they buy is GM or not. They bait new customers with low prices, then when those farmers can no longer switch back to natural seeds, they ruin them. They expressly want natural seeds to die out so the whole world has to buy from them: they are sworn enemies of natural seeds because farmers can save those.
I trust natural selection. I don't trust greedy corporations that don't care about anyone or anything else. If you want the truth about them, read the stories of farmers who battled their army of lawyers for years. Percy Schmeiser's moving story at http://www.percyschmeiser.com/ is a good start.
Scientists owned by Monsanto claim Europe must surrender to Monsanto or starve. ,water it, it comes up, flowers, fruits, just like Monsanto.
What we need to hear instead.
Monsanto was banned from business in Europe and their patents stripped.
It's just time to go back to more natural high yield seed with no patents. For everyones good.
Put it in the ground, feed it
We need Monsanto and Cargill for what now?
Regulate the shit out of them. Uncover the bribery and make an example of the scientists backing Monsanto while we're at it.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
You must have stupid farmers in your country. That rule was abolished in 2008. You should know by now that when politicians in Europe say "Europe orders us to ...", what they really mean is "We order you to ... but don't want to take responsibility"
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Or that new peer-reviewed study on glyphosphate.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2315057/Is-worlds-popular-weed-killer-causing-Parkinsons-New-study-shows-Roundup-herbicide-linked-cancer-infertility.html
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
You cannot prove a negative.
GMOs 0 deaths
Apart from that detail, I personally have no problems with GM crops on the health side (*). I do have serious objections though concerning the misuse of legal ways to enforce mono culture and the elimination of small farmer's biodiversity. That is something GM crop companies should not have a right to do.
(*) Since the invention of antibiotics and vaccination, and widespread adoption of hygiene, the general life expectancy has grown very slowly.
Our bodies are currently part of a long time experience, which involves exposure to pollution from fossil fuels, radioactive particles from accidents and open-air atom bomb test (yes, until this day), processed fats and sugars, artificial electromagnetic waves of many wavelengths, GM food, and more.
Noone knows if one or many of these factors play a role in the ever growing effect of cancer, diabetes, and other deadly desases on our theoretical life expectancy.
Fertilizer helps, but we'd rather not use that in a high enough degree to make it viable.
What Europe "needs" if it wants to increase production and/or land use is holistic/organic methods, such as intensive managed grazing, pasture cropping, and permaculture design. This would have multiple beneficial knock-on effects...
1. Increase production.
2. Decrease chemical inputs.
3. Decrease fuel and capital costs.
4. Mitigate flood/drought cycles.
5. Increase carbon sequestration.
6. Increase biomass and biodiversity.
7. Decrease the need for veterinary pharamceuticals.
8. Replenish eroded topsoil.
Google a bit on "Joel Salatin", "Geoff Lawton" and "Allan Savory" for some excellent videos on this subject.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
We may be missing the smoking gun but as the parent said, 20 years of use and no real world problems with health that have been correlated with GMO.
Cheap corn syrup (probably GMO) is the biggest problem, causing the American obesity epidemic. That's not a GMO problem though.
Again we could be in the middle of a GMO related epidemic and not realize the cause but no one has announced it (and I'd expect someone is looking for it).
BPA in plastics is a bigger problem, antibiotics in live stock is a bigger problem, outbreaks of listeria and botulism are bigger problems, hormones and chemicals in the water supply are a bigger problem.
It's not a zero sum problem of course so I encourage people to look for the smoking gun but to date it has not been found and its been decades now of widespread use.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Farmers don't have to plant Monsanto crops. Consumers don't have to buy crops they don't want. And if Monsanto can get away with suing farmers whose fields they contaminated, you should blame the legislators for making that possible.
I don't think there is anything wrong with using fertilizer. In fact human civilization as we know it would not exist without it. The problem has been that in much of the world over use of inexpensive, easily applied, chemical fertilizers has become a substitute for good farming practices. Things like crop rotation, leaving fields fallow for a season, putting grazing animals onto your fallow fields to naturally enrich the soil etc have fallen out of use. In their place they just put ever more fertilizer on the land to compensate for burning up its natural fertility and polluting the ground water and oceans.
You posted that, because you wanted to be an ass. Now you are name calling someone who says that it looks like the muslims will be the ones to start violence in Europe. AC said nothing against women, nothing against humans, did not advocate euthanasia, or genocide, and you can glean from the tone of AC's reply that they find genocide to be an abhorrent thing.
News flash AC also said nothing about disliking muslims either. Only that the radical portion of that religion does not seem to be under control, and likes violence. Ya know, a little like you.
I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
Both of you are off-topic and not insightful. Nowhere in this article does anyone mention Monsanto. Monsanto sucks, but:
Monsanto != GMOs
GMOs hold incredible promise to feed the world, but all anyone can ever talk about is Monsanto and "Frankenfoods." There is not one single shred of scientific evidence of any GMOs causing serious health problems (Note: I said "GMOs" not the pesticides farmers are using on those crops), and there are plenty of publicly funded GMO projects that have produced real-life benefits like saving Papaya crops, bringing crops to parts of Africa where they wouldn't normally survive, and bringing nutrient-rich rice to impoverished parts of China.
But you know what? All of this scientific progress is being stymied because of anti-science people screaming "frankenfoods!" In Africa, some countries refused American food aid because of GMO fears--until their people began to starve to death. The Blood Rice GMO could nourish millions, but China can't get anywhere with it because of GMO fears. GMO farm salmon has spent 15 years trying to get approved in the United States, but politicians have blocked it for fear of GMOs; meanwhile, our natural fish stocks collapse from over-fishing.
If you are anti-GMO, then I put you in the same class of people who don't believe in Evolution, who are anti-vaccine, or don't accept the very basic science of Global Warming. You believe things without evidence or are simply denying the scientific evidence that exists, and your ignorance is making life harder for the rest of us.
i ~ Celebrating Science, Cyberspace, Speculation
That is not what he's arguing at all. He is saying: 1.- Current (very abundant) evidence and testing have not demonstrated any negative effects (unlike smoking). 2.- It is logically impossible to "prove" that something has no effect. There could always be (potentially) hidden effects that your tests do not measure. While reasonable efforts should be made to test potential effects, "reasonable" will never be "infinite", as that would prevent us from using any new technology whatsoever.
I agree 100% with you that GMO holds promise and != Monsanto. But we live in a corporate-dominated world and it's a legitimate fear that GMO will become a tool for control and profit rather than improvement of the human condition. Second point, mono-culture and gene-spliced is a lot less sustainable/more risky than natural high-yield. We could concentrate on eating less protein too, that's what takes the majority of the space/water etc.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
Good post. The anti-GMO crowd is as foolish and dangerous as the anti-vaccine crowd. And, like the anti-vaccine crowd, they are self-deluded, and convinced that they are right, despite the absolute lack of any evidence.
The only point they have in their favor is the questionable behaviors of certain companies, which are a consequence of some bad laws we have, not anything to do with the technology.
>> Scientists don't make conclusions based on lack of evidence. We need proof they're not harmful to us and the environment. We don't have that proof. .. GMOs 0 deaths with ...
> You cannot prove a negative. What you can prove (and what already has been proven) is that all of the GMO crops are safer
Everyone that has eaten carrots has a 100% fatality rate. Therefore carrots are bad. See, I can abuse stats and provide bullshit arguments based on it too.
This phrase "prove a negative" is incorrect. If there are LONG-TERM studies (40 - 100 years) on the RESULTS of people eating GMO foods then we can make safety decisions based on EVIDENCE. i.e.
* Are people more or less healthy?
* Are there chemicals / toxins / etc that are there when they shouldn't be?
* Are there any effects on birth?
etc.
We don't have 100+ years of study on GMO foods. Man has a annoying habit of fucking everything up in nature. It would be more prudent to ban the commercial use UNTIL we have more complete LONG TERM data on their safety especially when you have corporations that are proven & documented as being dishonest, unethical, and have paid some shill to advocate their propaganda because they ONLY care about corporate greed.
References:
* The World According to Monsanto
* Food Inc.
Wait, what?
AC's post wasn't racist, nationalist, or even all that idiotic. A bit too stereotypical IMO, but damn - wishing death (viz euthanasia) on the guy just because he (she, it) pointed out that yeah, it's going to be a problem down the road?
Seriously - there are elements of that post which happen to be correct - unless the muslim communities in Europe ratchet back (and tamp down) the whole demand for (and occasional practice of) Sharia law, parts of the EU may well end up living under it. Given that the radical elements do have a penchant for violence, he wasn't too far off the mark there, either.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Of course he can. If he cared about the environment. But, alas, apparently he only cares about receiving the subsidies.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
"Sorry if my postings on this upset the anti-GMO crowd, but the facts are sometimes annoying."
Which is the reason why pro-GMO lobbyists so vehemently prevent any form of serious research on them, presenting only their own as valid.
Here is one example, among many others :
http://www.naturalnews.com/037665_gmo_scientists_organ_damage.html
Hi, I'm a former computer nerd, now a biologist.
Don't overestimate the role of mutation in short-term evolution. The rate of mutation per site per generation in almost all extant species is very low, and almost all mutations are deleterious. For any de novo allele to persist in a population, it must confer a significant benefit to survival or reproduction. If its selective benefit is only slight, its chance of persistence or fixation in a population is equal to its initial frequency, which is extremely low (except in very small populations, but then you have other problems). Mutation is certainly necessary for evolution, but it works on extremely long time scales.
From a biological standpoint, what Monsanto does is pretty irrelevant. They create populations that, barring mutation, don't reproduce. What they do does not affect the genetic variation of natural populations, except insofar as it restricts the total acreage occupied by non-GMO crops. But it's important to realize that those non-GMO crops are _not_ natural populations, nor are they "natural" plants. Such crops have been as thoroughly modified by man as has any Roundup-Ready plant. That's exactly what selective breeding for greater yield, better taste, etc. are - genetically modifying organisms. Corn, wheat, cabbage, mustard, and a whole host of other plants that are grown "organically" and eaten every day do not occur in nature in the forms we consume. The only difference is that companies like Monsanto target single genes, because they can. There is an argument to be made that, by selectively adding or modifying only beneficial alleles, biochemical engineering is a safer way to shape crop plants to our needs; selective breeding is sloppy, messy, and can't eliminate negative genes that, for example, are in linkage disequilibrium with selectively positive genes. And, if you don't want to grow GM seeds... don't. Agribusiness isn't preventing anyone from growing old crops the old way.
From what I have observed, most people's objections to Monsanto boil down to what one of my non-major humanities professors said: "It just doesn't seem natural." People don't seem to realize that when engineering these plants, what is happening is simply a refinement of a process that's been going on in agriculture since we first figured out planting seeds makes plants grow. It's just a more precise version, and able to avoid a whole host of problems presented by the old way of doing things. But it's happening in a lab, so it's automatically unnatural, and interfering with either God's plan or evolution. Evolution is a tricky subject, and far more complicated than most people realize.
I guess what I'm saying is, don't get a gut feeling about something and just call it good. There is a huge amount of propaganda on both sides of this issue, and the reality of the situation is more nuanced than 99% of people realize. I'm probably going to get attacked for this as a Monsanto shill, but please note that I didn't take a firm position either way. There's a reason for that: despite all the screaming from both sides, there is not enough reliable data available to do real, objective science on the broader effects of widespread GMO agriculture. Unfortunately, this dearth of data just feeds the gut feelings on both sides.
Lecture over. Feel free to flame.
Arr! The laws of physics be a harsh mistress!