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Why Is Science Behind a Paywall?

An anonymous reader writes "The Priceonomics blog has a post that looks into how so much of our scientific knowledge came to be gated by current publishing models. 'The most famous of these providers is Elsevier. It is a behemoth. Every year it publishes 250,000 articles in 2,000 journals. Its 2012 revenues reached $2.7 billion. Its profits of over $1 billion account for 45% of the Reed Elsevier Group — its parent company which is the 495th largest company in the world in terms of market capitalization. Companies like Elsevier developed in the 1960s and 1970s. They bought academic journals from the non-profits and academic societies that ran them, successfully betting that they could raise prices without losing customers. Today just three publishers, Elsevier, Springer and Wiley, account for roughly 42% of all articles published in the $19 billion plus academic publishing market for science, technology, engineering, and medical topics. University libraries account for 80% of their customers.' The article also explain how moving to open access journals would help, but says it's just one step in a more significant transformation scientific research needs to undergo. It points to the open source software community as a place from which researchers should take their cues."

210 comments

  1. Because it's valuable, duh. by ron_ivi · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It has value, so someone wants to profit from it.

    One could as easily ask "why are Hollywood Movies behind a paywall", or "why is food behind a paywall at my grocery store".

    1. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well that's all well and good, except that most universities around the world are publicly funded in part by taxes. So your taxes pay for the research, and then you have to pay once more to be able to look at the results. If you had to have your credit card details ready when you made a 911 call, you might start to wonder what your tax dollars are actually being used for....

    2. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...and when it is free it's value is even greater. duh.

    3. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by femtobyte · · Score: 4, Informative

      Key difference: food is not produced by non-profit farmers, who would love to give their food away for free to everyone in the world if only the grocery stores allowed it. Nor do the people who write scientific journal articles expect to earn royalties for every copy read. Scientists want their work to be read and shared *without the motive of earning a single penny per copy distributed.*

    4. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by cheesybagel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Totally different. Most of the effort here is actually done by people who do not get paid. This includes both the authors and the reviewers.

    5. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A guy from university X writes a noteworthy paper and publishes it through Elsevier. Then university X buys its own product back from Elsevier because ... Elsevier wants a profit?

    6. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, that's not a very good analogy. In fact the issues are somewhat more complicated than you suggest, which you would know if you had actually read the article, of course. So let's phrase the question another way: why is a lot of scientific literature NOT behind a paywall? I can't wait to hear you tell me it's because arXiv.org is without value ...

    7. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Jamu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Does it even qualify as scientific knowledge if it's not freely available for peer review?

      --
      Who ordered that?
    8. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...and when it is free it's value is even greater. duh.

      Its value to the world, yes. But not its value to its "owner".

      It's the basic principal of supply and demand. If they want you to supply your research then you should demand payment.

    9. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And farmers aren't?

    10. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      RTFA, and try to understand that what appears to be your assumption, that scientific articles are commodities like movies or groceries, is not supported by history.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    11. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by zlogic · · Score: 5, Informative

      Authors are paid next to nothing. I've published a paper by Springer which is currently selling for $40 for a download. Guess how much I got paid? $0 (and even had to sign a huge contract detailing the terms of my $0 compensation).
      Scientists publish papers because they need credit, references, public claims on their discoveries etc. Big-name scientists may actually earn something if they negotiate it.
      The only reason I see the publishers get such a huge compensation is that they have to review papers (probably hire scientists from similar fields) and deal with the incoming stream of bullshit articles.

    12. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "owner" in this case is not Elsevier or the publishing houses - typically it is the sponsoring university or organization or the individual researcher.. .. or, us taxpayers, since we (in general) originally paid for the research to be done.

    13. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Necroman · · Score: 1

      Scientist also like to be able to continue doing their research, so they make at least some money. Do you expect these scientists work for free. How do you expect them to pay for equipment and other resources needed to do their work.

      --
      Its not what it is, its something else.
    14. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Mitreya · · Score: 2

      Does it even qualify as scientific knowledge if it's not freely available for peer review?

      Uhm... yes?
      The peer in peer-reviewed refers to the experts from the same domain who are qualified to review your work. Not to the general population.

    15. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Totally different. Most of the effort here is actually done by people who do not get paid. This includes both the authors and the reviewers.

      That just increases the value, because the overheads are lower than they would otherwise be.

      Never underestimate the determination of middle-men to get paid for other people's work.

    16. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How do you expect them to pay for equipment and other resources needed to do their work.

      Since owners of the paywalls are not the ones that finance the research and researchers, I would expect them to get the money exactly the same way as they get it now.

    17. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Do the authors get royalties?

    18. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by femtobyte · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I expect them to be paid the same way they already have been and are paid, which doesn't involve a cent coming from sales of their research articles. The for-profit journals don't funnel those billions of revenues back to scientists; they take them *away* from the scientific community (and into the pockets of profiteering investors). Replacing for-profit publishers with non-profit university and professional associations puts more money (and, more importantly, access to knowledge) back in the hands of scientists, without taking a single thing away from any scientist's paycheck.

    19. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by bbelt16ag · · Score: 1

      give them time you'll be putting one in the phone to use it soon. Besides your property taxes pay for those.. so you in effect paying for them.

      --
      NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
    20. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The researchers don't get paid to publish in journals, they just get paid to do their research. If the journals were freely available they wouldn't lose any money.

    21. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by HeckRuler · · Score: 0

      Is Linux valuable?

    22. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by humblepie · · Score: 1

      It has value, so someone wants to profit from it.

      One could as easily ask "why are Hollywood Movies behind a paywall", or "why is food behind a paywall at my grocery store".

      Why isn't your comment behind a paywall? By your reasoning, if it had value, someone would want to profit from it.

    23. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by mi · · Score: 1

      Unless the taxpayer funding stipulates making the results of the research available for free, the researches are perfectly free to continue doing, what they are doing. For all I care, as long as the knowledge exists it does not matter much, whether it is free as in beer, or not.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    24. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by femtobyte · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not for journal articles. For whole textbooks, a small pittance --- nothing remotely profitable compared to the thousands of hours that go into preparing such a text. The person I know who got an advanced graduate level text published through a major publisher earned ~$1 in royalties per copy, for a book that sold for $160 (and would, optimistically, sell a few thousand copies). He joined in with the lab's gray market overseas purchase (for about half the US price), because he sure as heck wasn't making any extra from the publisher's extortion. Only a few of the most common freshman introductory texts --- that will sell zillions of copies --- might be profitable; anything more advanced (that actually draws on the researcher's own particular area of expertise to advance a field) is done at a loss by the author --- typically only after getting tenure, since time spent writing a textbook isn't adding to annual publication counts.

    25. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so what are you saying? because there are other examples of theft the first example isn't valid? the communists tell you to fund it on the way in and the corporatists tell you to pay for it on the way out. what a bunch of suckers we are.

    26. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Americano · · Score: 2

      It's really not "huge compensation" until they've scaled their organization to thousands of employees around the world, publishing thousands of journals & tens of thousands of books. On a per-unit basis, their profits are pretty modest.

      250,000 articles, 2.7 bn in revenues, of which 1 bn is profit - that means each article generates $10,800 in revenue, which means there's a breakdown of $4000 in 'profit' from each article, and $6,800 in 'expenses,' assuming all revenues come from publication activities. It costs money to manage and publish these articles, and you don't do away with that cost by getting mad at Elsevier. If you want everything to be "free to anybody who wants a copy," you have two choices:

      1) Create a federal agency that does the job Elsevier does, funded with taxpayer money, which isn't trying to earn a profit, and mandate that all taxpayer funded scientific research must be published through that federal agency;

      2) Mandate that all grant money MUST publish to "some open access" platform, and make that a condition of the grant award.

      If you do #1, you've created what's almost certain to be a politicized, inefficient government bureaucracy which will arguably find a way to simply cost more than the 2.7 bn in revenues Elsevier takes in, and you've also essentially "nationalized" Elsevier by legislating them out of existence, because as others have pointed out... there's a massive amount of research that's funded by taxes these days.

      If you do #2, well, the situation remains the same as it is today - Elsevier will still be a for-profit agency charging an average of $10,800 per paper to publish, and researchers will just ask for a little more money to cover their anticipated publishing costs.

      Really, this isn't exactly "fuck you" money that's being gouged out of every researcher. I'm not sure I think either solution is an improvement, but I'd favor #2 if it came down to it. On a per-paper basis, Elsevier isn't exactly making "fuck you" money, I'm not sure that getting mad at them (instead of the government, for not mandating Open Access publication) makes sense.

    27. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      Actually, and I do need to research this, I think it is carved in stone somewhere in DC (or elsewhere) the the results of publically funded research should be made freely available to those who funded it. Like I said, I need to check that. But if true, its in direct violoation of the will of the People. Like everything else going on in this country.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    28. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by meta-monkey · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think you might mean "attempts to reproduce." "Peer review" occurs before the paper is published. The author submits the paper to the journal or conference, the editor of the publication sends copies of the paper to experts in the field (generally other researchers who have already been accepted to the journal/conference), and those experts, peers of the author, review the paper and make recommendations. After reading the feedback from the reviewers, the editor may choose to reject the paper, publish the paper, or ask the author for revisions.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    29. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by pepty · · Score: 2
      All of the NIH funded research is available after 1 year. So you don't have to pay once more if you are willing to wait.

      I think university libraries (the principal customers for these publishers) will be the ones who successfully force a transition to either open access or cheap-access publications; budgets are too tight for them to be able to afford to keep supporting the current model.

    30. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by whoever57 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your argument make the incorrect assumption that an open-access approach would have the same costs that a closed-access model has. Much of Elsevier's costs are directly attributable to their sales model and would vanish in an open-access world.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    31. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be true, except for the requirement to publish all NIH funded research in an open access format after a period of time. Eventually this will be taken care of.

    32. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by pepty · · Score: 2

      Taxpayer funding does stipulate that - when it comes from the NIH.

    33. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by pepty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1. Done:

      http://publicaccess.nih.gov/

      2. Done:

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/

      (if you discount the value of immediate access to research, that is)

    34. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Americano · · Score: 2

      Which costs do you imagine will disappear?

      They still have to accept submissions, evaluate them, farm them out for review, decide which to accept, publish them, and then make them available in perpetuity.

      I find it doubtful that any of these costs would be reduced in any substantial fashion by a transition to open access publication. In fact, it's likely that "easy, free, open access" to 250,000 articles per year would require them to invest in significant upgrades of their infrastructure, with attendant staff and hardware expansion to go along with that. So they lose a few sales people, and have to hire a bunch of new IT guys to build out a new data center or two.

    35. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that's all well and good, except that most public transportation around the world are publicly funded in part by taxes. So your taxes pay for the public transportation, and then you have to pay once more to be able to ride it.

      Just because something is paid for with public money doesn't make the public entitled to it.

    36. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No

    37. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Americano · · Score: 1

      The letdown that I see to PMC is that it is mandated ONLY for NIH-funded research, and allows for a delay of up to 12 months.

      It seems that PMC also relies on the journals it is archiving to handle the review process for papers - managing this is probably a significant expense that the journals must still spend, and recoup somehow. I'd be interested to see what portion of the 30-some billion dollar NIH budget goes to operation of the PMC and affiliated programs, and what portion of the full publishing process PMC covers.

    38. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Replacing for-profit publishers with non-profit university and professional associations puts more money (and, more importantly, access to knowledge) back in the hands of scientists,

      Creating "non-profit" university publishers will cost every taxpayer more money, because the people that will have to be hired to do this work will not be doing it for free, and instead of being paid for indirectly by grants (which can be taxpayer or private), they'll be on the taxpayer payroll.

      Association publishers will simply move the costs to the association members. The cost of belonging to some professional organizations is wacky already. IEEE is $185 a year, for which you get Spectrum and continual offers of life insurance. ACM is a more reasonable $99. ACS is $151. The only advantage to pushing the costs to the members is that some of them don't pay memberships from grant money, so you get to pull the money out of the member's pocket.

      Whether you like it or not, the professional publishers do provide a service that isn't free, so paying them for that service isn't unreasonable. If you want free journal articles, perhaps you should write the author and get a preprint? When you pay for a journal, you aren't paying for the information, you're paying for the article itself.

    39. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way you'll find things of value not behind a paywall is if somebody is profiting from advertising alongside the valuable things.

      Maybe you're running AdBlock, but don't pretend that Slashdot isn't profiting by having these comments posted.

    40. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      And farmers aren't?

      farmers don't pay grocery stores to carry their products...

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    41. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      yes, but is it scientific when the size of peer review is artificially limited?

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    42. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They still have to accept submissions, evaluate them, farm them out for review, decide which to accept, publish them, and then make them available in perpetuity.

      But they don't do the evaluation and decisions on which to publish. That is done by unpaid reviewers and editors.

      it's likely that "easy, free, open access" to 250,000 articles per year would require them to invest in significant upgrades of their infrastructure,

      Much of their infrastructure is related to payment processing and restricted document delivery. None of that would be required in an open-access model. In addition, some of their costs are attributable to printing physical copies of articles, which would not happen in an open-access model (or could be done by a third party for payment).

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    43. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by femtobyte · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Creating "non-profit" university publishers will cost every taxpayer more money, because the people that will have to be hired to do this work will not be doing it for free, and instead of being paid for indirectly by grants (which can be taxpayer or private), they'll be on the taxpayer payroll.

      As opposed to the taxpayer paying for all those things *plus* massive private profits by having private publishers do this? This will *save* the taxpayer money, because the taxpayer is *already* paying for all of Elsevier's work *and* profit margins.

      IEEE is $185 a year, for which you get Spectrum and continual offers of life insurance. ACM is a more reasonable $99. ACS is $151.

      Oooh, newspaper delivery prices! If $185 is "wacky" on your engineer's salary, you should consider looking for employers better able to use your skills than being a McDonald's fry chef. And, given my university's library budget for covering Elsevier's extortion costs, I'm (or, my research group) is already losing *way* more than $200 per person in journal costs.

      Whether you like it or not, the professional publishers do provide a service that isn't free, so paying them for that service isn't unreasonable.

      Paying for the actual costs of providing said services is reasonable. But Elsevier also gets this thing called "profit," where they rake in a billion dollars *more* than they need to pay for every single one of their own costs. They also arrange to provide services to maximize *profit,* rather than *services* --- at the expense of article availability to researchers. I suspect that, without the costs related to building elaborately paywalled restricted access archives, one could distribute Elsevier's content completely freely for a lot less than it costs to run Elsevier's profiteering operation.

      If you want free journal articles, perhaps you should write the author and get a preprint?

      Because maybe the author is dead, or might have better things to do than deal with personally handling the distribution of articles that a journal should be responsible for? If individual authors are supposed to handle archiving and distributing their own articles, then what are university libraries paying Elsevier's archive access extortion fees for?

    44. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Big-name scientists may actually earn something if they negotiate it.

      Regardless of the size of their name, nobody in my field gets paid for research articles. I might get royalties on a book, but even that is pretty minimal. Most money (beyond salary) comes from grants by the NSF, NRC, RCUK, ERC, etc. These are "research councils" funded by tax dollars, pounds, euros, etc.

      The only reason I see the publishers get such a huge compensation is that they have to review papers (probably hire scientists from similar fields) and deal with the incoming stream of bullshit articles.

      You are wrong. In my field (and in many others I know of) the editor deals with the stream of bullshit articles. The editor is typically an unpaid or lowly paid academic. The reviewers are chosen by the editor, and are again unpaid academics.

      The publisher does pay for typesetting and archiving. The publisher also coordinates the activities of the editor, reviewer, and typesetter. They also have a back-office - someone's got to do HR, IT, sales and billing. One estimate (made by a publisher) is that their activities cost about 30 USD per page.

    45. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never underestimate the determination of middle-men to get paid for other people's work.

      Nobody underestimates it.

      Having said that, if as much energy were put into doing something about it rather than just talking about it, maybe it would change sooner rather than later.

    46. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think university libraries (the principal customers for these publishers) will be the ones who successfully force a transition to either open access or cheap-access publications; budgets are too tight for them to be able to afford to keep supporting the current model.

      Indeed. Even if university administrators didn't make some of the dumb*** decisions that they do, many publicly-funded universities would still be squeezed.

    47. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Pseudonym · · Score: 2

      Limited to people who are experts in the field and know what they're doing? I'm going to go with a qualified "yes".

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    48. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Raenex · · Score: 2

      It's really not "huge compensation" until they've scaled their organization to thousands of employees around the world, publishing thousands of journals & tens of thousands of books.

      You are backing up the argument made in the article, which is that they jacked up prices and profit margins by becoming a big player in an inelastic market:

      "Companies like Elsevier developed in the 1960s and 1970s. They bought academic journals from the non-profits and academic societies that ran them, successfully betting that they could raise prices without losing customers. Today just three publishers, Elsevier, Springer and Wiley, account for roughly 42% of all articles published in the $19 billion plus academic publishing market for science, technology, engineering, and medical topics. University libraries account for 80% of their customers. Since every article is published in only one journal and researchers ideally want access to every article in their field, libraries bought subscriptions no matter the price. From 1984 to 2002, for example, the price of science journals increased nearly 600%. One estimate puts Elsevier's prices at 642% higher than industry-wide averages.

      These providers also bundle journals together. Critics argue that this forces libraries to buy less prestigious journals to gain access to indispensable offerings. There is no set cost for a bundle, instead providers like Elsevier structure plans in response to each institution's past history of subscriptions."

      On a per-unit basis, their profits are pretty modest.

      But on a profit margin basis, they are very big:

      "Another [means of analysis] is to look at their profit margins. Elsevier's profit margins of 36% are well above the average of 4%-5% for the periodical publishing business. Its hard to imagine that no one could do the centuries old business of publishing papers at lower margins."

      Really, this isn't exactly "fuck you" money that's being gouged out of every researcher.

      Yes, it is. Try reading the article.

    49. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're talking magazines, we're talking journals, Like the notorious Journal of Molecular Biology, which costs $6,181.87 for an electronic subscription with access for five users. The owners of that journal do the following to earn that money: they print a dead tree format ($9,273.00, or you can have both for just $15,454.87), they have an editor (who I don't know if they're paid or not) whose main function is to shuttle papers around to unpaid reviewers, mainly university professors. The papers if published cost the authors money--they're not even providing content for free! Besides the content there's also the guy running the server, and maybe a copy editor or two, and of course the billing department. Elsevier and the rest of the for-profit journal publishers are parasites, parasites so avaricious they're killing off the host.

    50. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, no, that's always been the way peer review works. You do work, submit it to a journal, and the journal has to decide whether to publish it or not. The editor can't possibly be as expert in every aspect of the field as people actively researching it, not only because everything is super specialized below the grain of the journal (i.e., you may be the editor of "The Journal of Bird Research," but you can't expect to be equally expert on ostrich mating and parrot evolution), but also because by definition, publishable papers containing new research contain things you haven't been able to know before. Also, you need independent active experts to review the paper to look for errors or quackery and to judge whether or not the research is relevant or compelling. So, peer review has nothing to do with whether a journal is freely available or behind a paywall. Even a freely published journal would still employ peer review in deciding which papers to publish and which papers to reject.

      This article is about what happens after the publication. Whether the journal is freely available, or whether you have to pay to read it. Again, I think you're getting mixed up between "peer review" (part of the editorial process that helps determine which papers a journal decides to publish) and the manner in which papers are available after publication (freely available for download and distribute, or locked behind a paywall).

      Papers being behind a paywall doesn't hurt the scientific validity of the papers published. Really, the problem is that it's rent-seeking dickishness on the part of the publishers.

      In grad school I worked at a research laboratory and was co-author on a few papers. I was also a peer reviewer for a few. Really, they were sent to my faculty advisor, and he farmed out the work to the grad students. This wasn't a bad thing...of course he reviewed our reviews before sending them on, and we learned about the process and I did my part as a member of the scientific community. But yeah, papers containing the research we did at a public land grant University (meaning facilities paid for by public tax dollars) and under tax-funded grants from the National Science Foundation and the NSA, peer-reviewed for free by other researches like ourselves and accepted for publication are now locked behind paywalls. I actually can't download and read papers that have my name on them as co-author (assuming I didn't keep original copies).

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    51. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's valuable for.... business.

      And we all know how business-biased scientific research is nowadays. Just look at the funders.

    52. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      As opposed to the taxpayer paying for all those things *plus* massive private profits by having private publishers do this?

      You missed the point that not all grants are tax-funded. Corporations also provide grants to do research, as do private foundations.

      Oooh, newspaper delivery prices!

      Except there is no newspaper. There's a monthly magazine. How many magazines do you think would survive if they charged $185 per year? And I cannot think of a single newspaper I would subscribe to for $185/year, so "newspaper delivery prices" is a useless comparison.

      If $185 is "wacky" on your engineer's salary,

      How does the fact that the cost is much larger than the value have anything to do with the level of one's salary? Someone getting paid $150k/annum would still be getting as little out of the cost as someone making $1.

      BTW, your slap at what you think my salary is is a waste of everyone's time, including mine. Knock off the insulting attitude.

      Paying for the actual costs of providing said services is reasonable. But Elsevier also gets this thing called "profit,"

      That's how capitalism works. People who risk money get to profit when the risk pays off. But before I go on a rant about obscene profits, I'd probably want a better source for the data than an article that is ranting about those obscene profits. Something more objective, perhaps.

      Because maybe the author is dead, or might have better things to do than deal with personally handling the distribution of articles that a journal should be responsible for?

      If the author is dead, his files have been passed on to someone else in the department, and EVERY author is happy to have people ask for the product of his efforts. It's stroking his ego.

      If individual authors are supposed to handle archiving and distributing their own articles, then what are university libraries paying Elsevier's archive access extortion fees for?

      You want the information for free, I just told you the easy way to get it. Individual authors aren't required to do this, they do it because it is of value to the community. The "extortion" fees are because they are making it more convenient for you to get the information, a service which costs real money.

    53. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by fleebait · · Score: 1

      Guess who else gets a cut of that pie.

      The research institution does not give this stuff to publishers for free, they get their percentage too. So in addition to the publishers disappearing from existence, the researchers, or institutions lose their cut, too.

      I guess we should be able to get this stuff for free, and the individuals, or institutions should give up their additional source of income.

    54. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by femtobyte · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You missed the point that not all grants are tax-funded. Corporations also provide grants to do research, as do private foundations.

      (a) what fraction is this in most fields? In particle physics (my own area), I've never seen any privately funded research --- but we're stuck with Elsevier journals.
      (b) regardless, why should private grants paying extra for Elsevier's profits be any better? Wouldn't a private granter be happier paying less for non-profit journal systems, too?

      Except there is no newspaper. There's a monthly magazine.

      OK; you don't see the value in professional organizations. Others do --- including value beyond delivering magazines to our door, such as organizing conferences, scholarships, promoting research, even *providing journals better for the progress of science than profiteering schmucks.*

      That's how capitalism works. People who risk money get to profit when the risk pays off.

      And, when you lock in a monopoly position (such as is granted through exclusive intellectual property rights to journal articles), you can hoover up mega profits! Some of us don't think Capitalism is a good idea even in the *best* of cases, but this is the very *worst* of Capitalism --- the hideous face of monopolistic moneygrubbing.

      The "extortion" fees are because they are making it more convenient for you to get the information, a service which costs real money.

      Elsevier's profit margins are *absolute proof* that these services could be provided for at least 30% lower cost. With charges that range into hundreds of thousands of dollars per year per institution for hosting a few tens of thousands of PDF pages of archive material, do you seriously think this couldn't be done ***way*** cheaper (such as at the rates consistently provided by non-profit journals, which are often ~10% of Elsevier's fees for similar services)?

    55. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by mi · · Score: 1

      Well, problem solved then... But if were really this simple, I doubt we would've even heard of it.

      I suspect, the original research is, indeed, freely available — but everybody wants to read it in a well-established magazine. The publication, likely, claims the rights to the resulting articles only.

      Why do readers prefer those, instead of the original research — that's another story. But if the magazine is adding any value (even if merely of the perceived kind), then they are entitled to whatever compensation the market is willing to pay them for it...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    56. Re: Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually they do. I work in the grocery industry. I cant show up at a store and sell my produce. They have to bid on a contract to provide x amount of produce for y amount of dollors. However, as someone already mentioned, Ithey farmers dont automatically get subsidies for growing crops.

    57. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The key portion of your comment is "in part". That is, a typical university depends on sources of revenue other than government funding in order to maintain its research programs. A significant portion of the remainder comes from the revenue from commercializing that research. Few, if any, major research universities can afford to do it any other way.

      The handful of pennies that represent your contribution to public research aren't enough any more than the small amount of tax money that funds public transportation fully covers that--there's still a fare charged to ride the bus or train.

      That said, revenue from journal access fees is not a particularly profitable enterprise for universities, especially since whatever they make goes right back into their own subscription fees to get everyone else's research, so the entire discussion is tangential at best.

    58. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 2

      Congress just recently passed legislation saying that any papers produced and at least partially funded by the NIH must be made public within one year of publication. This, of course, is dependent upon the NIH making an actual database for this, and Cthulhu only knows how long that will take.

      http://publicaccess.nih.gov/

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    59. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 2

      Well, the universities are (partially) funded by taxes, but most research-producing profs teach at or near the same rate as non-researching profs (typically 3/4 teaching load is considered the ideal situation), so the taxpayers are getting their money's-worth - actually, when you figure in how many graduate students teach for a fraction of what profs are paid, research-producing profs and their groups are actually a better value.

      Now, research is rarely funded by the university itself, about 90-95% of research funding comes from outside sources - and the "internal" sources are still from university foundations and endowments, not taxpayer funds or tuition.

      You can say, "But the university provides facilities for the research!" and this is true. But remember each research group typically saves about $100K in professor salaries annually, not to mention making the university more attractive to undergrads, thus increasing the university's appeal and allowing it to charge more for tuition.

      Anyway, my point here is that saying "But the taxpayers paid for this research through university funds!" is by no means a clear-cut argument.

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    60. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by tsa · · Score: 2

      Don't forget that the scientists also have to pay a hefty sum per page (usually around US$100,-) to publish their stuff. And then the publishers still have the nerve to ask the scientists to do most of the formatting for them too.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    61. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by tsa · · Score: 1

      Before you publish in Elsevier you have to sign a paper that transfers the copyright on your work to them. So Elsevier is the owner of the work.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    62. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by tsa · · Score: 0

      It's priceless.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    63. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

      I doubt the Nazi scientists and US scientists were making their stuff freely available for peer review during WW2. But their scientific experiments still resulted in scientific knowledge.

    64. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      In many cases, you are allowed to offer the pre-prints on your personal website. This is commonly done in more technological fields, but frequently biologists for example will not do so because they simply don't have a website :). Not everyone has the time or expertise to curate a very-low-traffic blog.

      It is becoming more common, and google scholar provides the link to the freely available version if it exists. So if you want people to access your work without hassle, do that!

    65. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      If only they let me do the typesetting... I usually submit beautifully typeset documents, and some idiot editor retypes the math into word and it comes out fugly. They also add mistakes to our manuscripts.

      I have nothing in principle against outsourcing, but it has not improved the quality of the editorial process at Elsevier...

    66. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Call me when movie production budgets are funded by taxes.

    67. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      I think it is a good thing that grad students review papers rather than the profs: they are less politically motivated, and closer to the experimental reality.

      Also, they don't yet know the people from whom they are reviewing the papers, and therefore have a more neutral stance.

    68. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      you are allowed to (and should) put pre-prints freely accessible on the web.

      I mean, yes, Elsevier are scum, but only because their profit margins are too high for the quality of the service they provide. As an editor responsible for the copy-editing and typesetting, they suck.

    69. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which costs do you imagine will disappear?

      They still have to accept submissions,

      Done by editors (for free)

      evaluate them,

      Editors again

      farm them out for review,

      Editors again. Also responsible for the step before, "find reviewers"

      decide which to accept,

      Editors again again again. Oh wait, you forgot "review"and "chase the reviewers for being way too late". That'd be reviewers and (drum roll) editor!

      publish them, and then make them available in perpetuity.

      True, that's done by Elsevier. (you left out typesetting, which Elsevier also takes care of).

      It's the basic model of scientific publishing: give someone the honor of being editor-in-chief of a new journal. That person then has to find editors, then the editorial team hunts for submissions, the editors find appropriate reviewers, reviewers review, editors decide, communicate decision, in case of "conditional accept", there might be another round like that... At the end, the journal is printed and published.
      Cost factors for the publisher: maintaining the web platform for reviewing (which is just another instance of the one for any other of their journals), print the paper and publish it (which are just instances of exactly the same process for their other publications).
      Since the process for one journal is almost precisely similar as for any other (for the publisher, at least), that is optimized and costs are not high.

      I find it doubtful that any of these costs would be reduced in any substantial fashion by a transition to open access publication.

      See the summary: Elsevier has had profits of over 1 billion american dollars.
      There's some savings to be made without cutting costs. $1 billion is a lot of money. E.g., enough to actually make a difference to the federal budget.

    70. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still not zero. You can't run a journal on zero revenue because there are real costs, unless you're expecting the researchers to do all the typesetting, indexing, web site maintenance, secretarial stuff, etc. You're right that you can strip away a lot of the costs that a big operation like Elsevier's journals have, but it's not as much as you think. The biggest savings are simply from not having ridiculous amounts of profit, but you still have to fund your actual costs somehow, and that's not a trivial problem.

    71. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find it doubtful that any of these costs would be reduced in any substantial fashion by a transition to open access publication.

      Lets use Wikipedia (as of 2012) for comparison:
      Articles: 3,881,516
      Article growth rate: 23% (about 893,000) p.a.
      Operating cost: $20.1 Million (about 0.7% of Elsevier) p.a.
      Peer reviews / Edits per month: 12 Million
      Price to view: Free!
      The feeling you get from cutting though BS...priceless :-)

      To be fair Wikipedia doesn't publish original research, but still, it can't be $2.78 Billion more expensive for 643,000 fewer articles kind of difficult. Someone's getting ripped off here.

    72. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up!!

      This is as Insightful/Interesting as it can get...

    73. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      Congress just recently passed legislation saying that any papers produced and at least partially funded by the NIH must be made public within one year of publication. This, of course, is dependent upon the NIH making an actual database for this

      This has been policy for several years now, and the NIH does indeed have an actual database for this. Apparently they are known to call up investigators who are tardy uploading their papers (some journals do this automatically, but usually not the big commercial publishers).

    74. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Much of their infrastructure is related to payment processing and restricted document delivery.

      There is also a relatively huge overhead from the production costs of a dead tree journal, which few of the audience will even see at this point. (I can't remember the time I actually picked up a copy of Journal of Molecular Biology - I just download PDFs onto my iPad.) They have an entire staff whose job it is to reformat your Word document, arrange figures, etc. Some journals even charge a "color fee" if you have color images (essential for many biology articles), as if it were more expensive to generate colored PDFs.

      The sick irony in this is that more and more of the content ends up in the supplemental material anyway, and that's usually just an unformatted PDF.

    75. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Only a few of the most common freshman introductory texts --- that will sell zillions of copies --- might be profitable

      The author of one of the most popular college organic chemistry textbooks drives a red Ferrari - definitely the exception to the rule, however. Most of the time the payoff is largely just to the ego (which most tenured professors have no shortage of).

    76. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      That's because public transportation in most places is not wholly subsidized by taxpayer dollars, only partially and your ticket fare covers the remaining part.

    77. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      A very large part of that is because wartime research is obviously focused on producing a working device. Admirals and Generals don't want to hear about how peer reviewed your theoretical physics paper, they want to know when they'll be getting their operational nuclear device. They want to know how soon you can have a working prototype for showcasing and how soon after that it can be put into mass production. So they keep throwing money on research groups that can show a pretty enough powerpoint presentation and who can woo their audience.

      Huge amounts of money were "wasted" during WW2 on projects that were never going to bear fruit within a reasonable time frame, for example the German transatlantic rocket propelled bomber. The inventor knew that it would not bear fruit in the next 20 years or so at least but he told Hitler and the generals that it would be operational soon and no peers were around to tell them otherwise, and so they threw money at him until they were defeated. It's one of the reasons Nazi Germany was defeated, they wasted huge amounts of resources on unfeasible or outright impossible projects such as the Landkreuzer P 1000 Ratte which was set to dwarf even the already incredibly impractical Panzer VIII Maus.

      But yes actual scientific knowledge of value other than the resulting device(if a device was even produced) is created during wartime and when the war is over you can go about getting it peer reviewed and all the other niceties of traditional empirical research but when the war is in full swing the only thing anyone ever cares about is producing weapons, preferably working weapons.

    78. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by redlemming · · Score: 1

      Or, putting this in different terms, just as a long term public oversight right exists with respect to the conduct of businesses (in order to prevent things like deliberate pollution of the environment, or rats in peanut butter), so too does a long term public oversight right exist with respect to government.

      As a consequence of this right, persons or organizations receiving public funding for most types of research must, at some reasonable time after publication, make freely available to the public the results of that research. This rule allows publishers to make money off initial publication, thus supporting editing and review of publications, while ensuring the public eventually gets free and unfettered access to this material.

      Even so much as 1 dollar of public funding being used at any point in the research process forces this right to be invoked in full.

      In this day and age, making research freely available to the public means putting it on the Web, accessible to search engines, without advertisement, and free for download in some open well-defined format.

      Such a right arises naturally under the 9th Amendment within the US legal system. No legislation by Congress or the state governments is required for this right to exist, and in fact, with respect to publicly funded research material, this right supersedes the authority of Congress to make laws infringing the right to copy or any other laws that might infringe this right.

      Denial of this right by legal professionals is appropriately viewed as unethical conduct (as the legal profession is in a position of ethical conflict of interest with respect to recognizing the authority of the people to assert rights under the 9th Amendment), and a violation of their oaths to uphold the Bill of Rights.

      Any existing laws that would contradict this right in whole or in part are illegal laws, and any prosecutor, law enforcement officer, or other government agent involved in the enforcement of such illegal laws is in violation of his or her oath to uphold the Bill of Rights. Similarly, any court orders or precedents that would contradict this right are invalid. Just as we would expect military officers to refuse to recognize the authority of laws that require them to commit crimes against humanity (Nuremberg Precedent), so to do we expect civil government officers to refuse to recognize the authority of laws, orders, and precedents that require or permit them to infringe fundamental rights.

      Failure on the part of government to recognize the authority of this right not only removes the transfressing individuals from the government, immediately and permanantly and without any requirement for an Act of Congress or other government action (this is a minimum penalty: additional penalties may apply), but authorizes private citizens to act in place of the government, in a reasonable manner, to correct the situation in whole or in part.

      Research on a few topics, such as weapons of mass destruction can be excluded from this rule, in the interests of not providing information to terrorists or rogue governments. Strict scrutiny must be used here to determine whether the research excluded is legitimately excluded.

      Research on some military technologies (but not police technologies) may be excluded from publication for a longer time than other topics (at most 20 years, excepting the weapons of mass destruction).

      Similarly, while data collected as a part of publicly funded research must generally be made available with the publication, this does not need to be done in cases where doing so would violate other fundamental rights, such as the right to privacy. Similarly, in some cases the amount of data involved may be prohibitive to publish for free: in such cases, if practical, it must be made available at cost.

      Even for those topics legitimately excluded, some reasonable mechanism of oversight must exist.

      A reasonable time to make the research available to the public after any initial commercial publication is 1 ye

    79. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scientific research isn't completely funded by public money either.

    80. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Please cite reference? XD

    81. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      I believe it's Peter Vollhardt, a chemistry professor at UC Berkeley (which has one of the best chemistry departments anywhere). He actually drove the thing to work - apparently he paid the campus a pile of money for a rare on-campus parking spot next to the chemistry complex.

    82. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by hinckeljn · · Score: 1

      Actually there is a difference between grocery store goods and publications. Grocery stores goods consumption is rival (if I eat this lettuce you cannot eat the same lettuce). Publications and information goods in general are non-rival. Once provided an indefinite number of individuals can use the information from the a publication without depleting it. The problem with collecting the value of publication is that it is very thinly distributed and very difficult to valuate a priori. So individual producers of the publications don't bother to try to collect on it's value. Publisher houses, working on bulk have the means to collect at least part of the value. It is arguable that the actual value of all the publications is higher than what is collected by the publishers, and if universally and freely available would generate even higher returns for society in general. The problem is in determining a priori what is the value of individual publications. It is also arguable that a the value of a very high percentage of the publications is NULL. We just do not have the means to validate and accredit the value. The best that can be done is open everything and let time and usage determine true value... Still there are no guarantees..

    83. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      (a) what fraction is this in most fields?

      I have no idea. I claimed no specifics, only pointed out the fact.

      regardless, why should private grants paying extra for Elsevier's profits be any better?

      You complain that taxpayer funded research is being sold by journals. I pointed out that not all research is taxpayer funded. Where did I say the rates were good?

      And, when you lock in a monopoly position (such as is granted through exclusive intellectual property rights to journal articles),

      Journal articles are not the be-all end-all of scientific data. In fact, they contain very little of the actual data gathered in scientific research. They contain, for the most part, conclusions and theories. You want the data, contact the authors. The journals do not have a monopoly on the data.

    84. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      I think it is a good thing that grad students review papers rather than the profs: they are less politically motivated, and closer to the experimental reality.

      Also less likely to recognize rehashed old material and already debunked myths. There is a reason why grad students are grad students and professors are professors, and it doesn't have to do with good looks or a winning personality.

      There is also an issue of grad students borrowing other people's research ideas. Grad students have no status to lose and may not even recognize that it's bad to do this.

      Now, under supervision is a different matter, but "rather than"? No.

    85. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      About the old ideas, you are right. However, I still think that grad students actually make good reviewers in that the (good) ones have a keener sense of what is bullshit (as in "this suspiciously missing control is not suspiciously missing: you were afraid it would disprove your oversold message").

      But yes, supervision is useful, because there is value in experience. BTW, when I say "grad students" I mean students vying for PhDs who already have at least a master's degree. It is a bizarre (to me) Americanism to call grad students people with only a bachelor.

      If find it a bit sad that you think that students will steal ideas from the papers they are reviewing. On the other hand I find it heartwarming that you have students good enough to scoop papers already in review :)

    86. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except they don't hire reviewers, they use the free labour of more academics. Peer review is also done by volunteer.

      They charge for editing and providing the material. Yes they over charge, and yes they claim ownership of all copyright within a piece.

      I've recently seen smaller profit journals which even insist on the academic doing all the editing themselves.

    87. Re:Because it's valuable, duh. by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      But what do those that DO science gain from putting their discoveries behing a paywal? It's not like those journals pay scientists to publish their papers.

  2. Open Source Pharmaceuticals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Working on my own distro of Viagra. I hacked in some cough drop medication and now I have a stiff neck.

    1. Re:Open Source Pharmaceuticals by tommituura · · Score: 2

      Journal subscription fees (and scientific publishing business models) have nearly nothing to do with pharmaceutical research and safety/effectiveness testing costs. Troll harder, please.

    2. Re:Open Source Pharmaceuticals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Working on my own distro of Viagra. I hacked in some cough drop medication and now I have a stiff neck.

      Clearly you forgot: apt-get install lower before you compiled.

    3. Re:Open Source Pharmaceuticals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Working on my own distro of Viagra. I hacked in some cough drop medication and now I have a stiff neck.

      Hey, some people are into that. (going for a funny mod here, I'd post the goatse if I wanted troll)

  3. Because that's how capitalism works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Agreed. There has to be business model behind the research that goes into these breakthroughs, else none of this would ever get funded and there'd be no incentives for the scientists. And I think that's reasonably obvious to most people.

    It seems to me the real question we're asking here is "how much profit should an organization be allowed to make for facilitating 'discovery' and how did we come to that judgement?"

    1. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is quite possibly the most ignorant comment I've ever read about scientific publishing. Capitalism has nothing to do with science, the vast majority of published research is funded through grants handed out by the government. Nobody does basic research for profit. The public has already paid for the research, all the products of that research should be completely free.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The business model is this: Scientific research leads to new businesses. This is why it needs to be publicly funded. If business is to fund research it needs to be via taxation. This is the only way Google funds high energy physics for example. And they only exist because this happened before HTML was invented.

    3. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 2

      There isn't. The money goes to funding the journals themselves and keeping the curation high-quality. Most research money comes from grants: either the government or an interested corporation. Some of the funding for those grants comes from technology transfer or profit, but most comes from tax money. As most subscribers to scientific journals are research institutions anyway, the model you describe would just move money back and forth between universities.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    4. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, Academia, the bastion of the free market! Goodness knows their only motivational force is pure unfiltered greed. Which is why you never see those dirty Linux hippies anywhere near campus.

    5. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism has nothing to do with science, the vast majority of published research is funded through grants handed out by the government.

      Remind me, I'm a little fuzzy on this - who does the government get the funds from? You know, the money they're handing out as grants to finance research?

      You're clearly right - capitalism has NOTHING to do with the funding of research. Except without it, you wouldn't have 60 billion a year in tax revenues to hand out via the NIH, CDC, DOE, and other federal agencies. Unless you're asserting that the government has a secret farm of Cash Trees somewhere that they harvest this 60 billion from each year and turn into magical grant funding?

    6. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      Well, the part of the overall system that produces science is clearly *not* Capitalism (rather, depending on specifics, somewhere along the socialist to communist spectrum of organizational principles). Seizing profits from private corporations to use for the public good (through non-profit-seeking institutions) isn't Capitalism --- though it does seem to be an awfully great way to get world-class research done that private industry has no interest in providing. Yes, major sectors of the US economy are Capitalistic --- but, so far as the research sector is concerned, accumulation and investment for private profit is not the force driving production --- only the *subversion* of Capitalism, to expropriate private wealth for the public good, generates the immense wealth of scientific knowledge produced through publicly-funded research.

    7. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government-funded research sector doesn't exist in any sustainable form if not for capitalism.

      Can't seize profits to pay for something if the profits don't exist in the first place.

    8. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the part of the overall system that produces science is clearly *not* Capitalism (rather, depending on specifics, somewhere along the socialist to communist spectrum of organizational principles). Seizing profits from private corporations to use for the public good (through non-profit-seeking institutions) isn't Capitalism --- though it does seem to be an awfully great way to get world-class research done that private industry has no interest in providing. Yes, major sectors of the US economy are Capitalistic --- but, so far as the research sector is concerned, accumulation and investment for private profit is not the force driving production --- only the *subversion* of Capitalism, to expropriate private wealth for the public good, generates the immense wealth of scientific knowledge produced through publicly-funded research.

      Scientific funding from capital sources is a relatively new phenomenon. Companies didn't need or use R&D departments until scientific/technological advances became an important competitive advantage. And lately, they've been abandoning R&D even as progress becomes more critical than ever.

      Before corporate funding - or even corporate-taxed funding, scientists got their funding from well-connected friends, patrons (many of whom were nobility - thus "the Government"), or, if they were well-off enough, their own personal fortunes.

    9. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      A whole lot of cutting edge research was done for decades in the USSR under communist rule --- you can argue that wasn't true communism, but it sure wasn't Capitalism either. One might likewise say that the Capitalist sector wouldn't be sustainable without drawing on an immense amount of support from anti-Capitalist institutions.

    10. Re:Because that's how capitalism works. by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      I agree, it's a historically new thing for science to be funded off of wealth extracted from Capitalism. However, the point is that Capitalism has *never* been a particularly strong source of fundamental research. Research occurred prior to Capitalism, or under very non-Capitalist structures co-existing with Capitalism. Even most major "private" R&D, like much of the development of computers, relies on massive government subsidies. Claiming 20th-century science as a "victory" for Capitalism is utterly nonsensical, since only *deviations* from "pure" Capitalism provided the niches in which scientific progress occurs.

  4. If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by mbone · · Score: 1

    The free arxiv.org servers hold most of science behind these paywalls, at least in physics and astronomy. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in citation rank between paywalled papers on arxiv, and those that are not (and, thus, frequently unobtainable without payment).

    1. Re:If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Arxiv is free to use, but not free to run. While a government/non-profit donor supported model might be a better model than the present, it is naive to think that because "information wants to be free (libre)" that running a journal should be free (gratis).

    2. Re:If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Outside of physics, we have PLoS ONE. Unlike arXiv, the lack of editing basically ensures that the only stuff that ends up there is crap. Wet-lab science loves prestige. (There are also frequently exclusivity contracts involved.)

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    3. Re:If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In computer science, most people post their papers on their websites (which solves the "someone has to pay for arxiv problem" a sibling suggested, although I suspect it's just not actually expensive enough to be a real problem). Usually Google Scholar can find a PDF for any paper published in the past ~15-20 years.

    4. Re:If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by mbone · · Score: 1

      If you go on the arxiv.org site, you see, right at the top

      Cornell UniversityLibrary We gratefully acknowledge support from
      the Simons Foundation and member institutions

      It was started with (minimal*) government support; I don't think it gets any now. I agree that journals need to make costs, and even a profit; that doesn't mean that their material can't be generally available as well.

      *There used to be a picture on the site of the server it ran on, in the clutter under its creator's desk.

    5. Re:If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by mbone · · Score: 1

      Yes, and when those people die or change jobs, poof goes their work !

    6. Re:If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by amaurea · · Score: 1

      It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in citation rank between paywalled papers on arxiv, and those that are not.

      Ask and ye shall receive.

      A quote from the abstract:

      The analysis of citation data demonstrates that free and immediate online dissemination of preprints creates an immense citation advantage in HEP, whereas publication in Open Access journals presents no discernible advantage. In addition, the analysis of clickstreams in the leading digital library of the field shows that HEP scientists seldom read journals, preferring preprints instead.

      I recommend looking at the figures in the paper too. And also reading it, it is not very techincal, and is easy to read.

    7. Re:If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by amaurea · · Score: 2

      As a follow up, I'll note that I work in one of the arXiv-heavy fields (astronomy), and I never read any of the journals - nor does anybody I know. Instead we check for new articles ono the arXiv in the morning, where they appear the day after they were uploaded by the authors. There are usually 10-50 such papers per day in my field, depending on how narrow I want to be, and looking for interesting papers based on their titles and abstracts only takes a few minutes per day.

      The immediacy this implies is a huge advantage which greatly speeds up the rate at which science is done. For example, a while ago a controversial paper was published on the arXiv claiming evidence for an exotic theory, and after 3 weeks 3 independent teams had attempted to reproduce their results and found no evidence for the claim. This turnaround is completely unprecedented in fields which rely on traditional journals, where one must expect to wait 6 months or so for the paper to be published.

      While we don't read journals in my field, we still submit our papers to them, and do our best to have them published, because the journals still provide one important service: They coordinate the process of peer review. Sure, the peers are just other researchers like us, who do not get paid for their reviews, just like the journals do not pay us for our articles (in fact we have to pay quite a lot in page charges when our papers are published), but as it is, journals are the only way peer review is organized. Or put another way, peer review is the thin string in which the life of the traditional journals hangs.

      The ideal solution for us in arXiv-dominated fields would be dedicated peer review services which would take over the role of coordinating peer review, but do so for free (after all, that coordination is less work than the free peer review itself), and which would digitally sign papers that have passed review. ArXiv could then display an icon on the pages of these papers, indicating which peer review service has signed the paper.

      If this were put into place, and managed to get over the initial hurdle of building up a good reputation, then the traditional journals could be banished completely from our field.

    8. Re:If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      That seems weird. I think Ginsparg was at Cornell at the time, and the original host of arXiv was LANL, before it was arXiv, even.

      Anyway, arXiv costs about half a million a year to run now and is mostly funded by voluntary (small) donations from other universities. On a per-paper and per-university basis, it's dirt cheap. But, to be fair, it's not a publication -- it doesn't have peer review. It's a preprint server. It's mostly useful for a) the absolute newest pre-review work and b) getting free copies of things once they're published.

    9. Re: If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I beg to differ. Also, just as much crap gets published in "prestigious" journals. I have personally worked with researchers that got their crap in Cell (Elsevier). Fortunately I wasn't a coauthor. There's also the arsenic bacteria farce which has not been retracted from Science.

    10. Re: If it's not on arxiv, it doesn't count? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Hey, I didn't say prestigious journals were free from scandal or questionable publications. I don't think you'll find that in any field—just that publishing agreements prevent PLoS ONE from acting like a preprint server akin to arXiv.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  5. Authors need to eat somehow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    The authors and peer reviewers need to be able to afford to live or they can't write!

    1. Re:Authors need to eat somehow by Mitreya · · Score: 5, Informative

      The authors and peer reviewers need to be able to afford to live or they can't write!

      True as that may be -- if only the authors or peer reviewers got any of that money! But since they don't, your point is kinda irrelevant.

      I have never made any money either submitting or reviewing for journals/conferences. I hear sometimes you even have to pay to get your work published (fortunately not in my field)

    2. Re:Authors need to eat somehow by ThreeKelvin · · Score: 1

      That's funny, that sounds almost like the music industry. I've never looked at my papers in that particular light.

      Thanks for the insight!

    3. Re:Authors need to eat somehow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have never made any money either submitting or reviewing for journals/conferences. I hear sometimes you even have to pay to get your work published (fortunately not in my field)

      There are journals and conferences that publish your work for free?

    4. Re:Authors need to eat somehow by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      There are journals and conferences that publish your work for free?

      Computer Science conferences and journals (that I interacted with) do not charge fees for publishing itself. You do pay a registration fee in order to attend the conference to present what you published.

  6. time for journaleaks.org? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would love to see a good journal torrent site or similar crop up. Myself and my partner are often looking for medical and biology papers. We used to get login credentials from friends at decent Universities, but as we get older, this is getting harder.

    1. Re:time for journaleaks.org? by houghi · · Score: 2

      I was thinking more in the line of Journalwikipedia.org where people could publish under Creative Commons. And then others can review it and those reviews will be public too.

      From a technical point of view, this should not be too hard. The hard part will be to be taken seriously and get some importand names on board.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    2. Re:time for journaleaks.org? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Try writing the author. They will almost always send you a pdf free of charge.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:time for journaleaks.org? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need a "journal torrent site or similar," because it is TRIVIALLY easy to get access to these big bad scary "paywalled" journals.

      1. Find the nearest medical school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States
      2. Go there, find their library.
      3. Access all the journals you want.
      4. ???
      5. Get money.
      6. Fuck bitches.

    4. Re:time for journaleaks.org? by kermidge · · Score: 1

      And to establish over time a reputation for publishing good stuff. With enough time comes tradition. With either comes cachet.

      "Do good, be good. Continue." describes 'most any thriving community, I think. With enough people contributing in some fashion I don't see why self-organized publishing can't work - or at least not automatically fail. Doing it wiki-style is intruiging, and the community would need to work out ways to handle injudicious editing, for example.

      Society at large has, I believe, over-riding interest in research results. Since funding generally is a blend of tax-funded grants, grants and endowments from academe and industry, it seems reasonable to expect those results to be available freely or at cost to print (as is done for maps from the several government agencies when I get hardcopy.) Nominal fees for postage, hosting, whathaveyou, don't seem unreasonable at first blush. (Please correct me where I've strayed.)

      If I view (and download) from on-line source, it's free. If I want a bound printed copy, charge me at cost. Else GFY.

    5. Re:time for journaleaks.org? by pchimp · · Score: 1

      Try writing the author. They will almost always send you a pdf free of charge.

      and in violation of copyright.

      Not that it would (or should) stop me or another author, but rules is rules -- best at least acknowledge them before we break them.

    6. Re:time for journaleaks.org? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's only a violation of copyright if they send you the official journal formatted version. You can send out the pre-print version as much as you want.

  7. Elsevier blocks textbook donations by craighansen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I recently attempted to purchase multiple textbooks for a donation to a teacher offering a non-profit course, and was blocked from purchasing new textbooks because, according to Amazon.com, multiple purchases of a single book are forbidden by the publisher. Amazon.com had plenty of copies available, they just weren't allowed to sell them to me.

    I contacted Elsevier on their website, and they were unavailing.

    My response was to purchase used copies instead, for which the teacher was very grateful, but I had wanted to do better for her.

    The end result was zero direct revenue.

    1. Re:Elsevier blocks textbook donations by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      Probably to prevent scalping.

    2. Re:Elsevier blocks textbook donations by craighansen · · Score: 1

      Are you serious? Do you really think I could corner the market by buying ten textbooks at the usual unit retail pricing? Besides - I made it clear that the books were to be donated, not "scalped."

  8. Information is power if access is limited by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    It's important to keep people ignorant to increase and concentrate that power.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  9. Mod parent up! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Irony at its finest meaning. (an author)

  10. because it costs money by epyT-R · · Score: 1

    Because it costs money? Now if it was publicly funded, even partially, the results should be public.

  11. false choices by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Insightful

    FTFA:

    Scientistsâ(TM) work follows a consistent pattern. They apply for grants, perform their research, and publish the results in a journal. The process is so routine it almost seems inevitable. But what if itâ(TM)s not the best way to do science?

    - yeah, that's a false choice.

    Private companies do science all the time because they need to push their knowledge forward to stay competitive.

    By the way, who is preventing any scientist from publishing his papers anyway he or she likes at all? Who is standing in their way just throwing the stuff on some free Internet site, like, I don't know this or even this silly site?

    1. Re:false choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Private companies do science

      Yes, but rarely publish their findings (especially in peer-reviewed journals). You'll find most Elsevier articles are publicly funded, just as you'll find that most privately funded scientific research that gets published includes a government-funded component (that's why they publish the results -- it's often part of the grant).

      who is preventing any scientist from publishing his papers anyway he or she likes at all?

      1) The institution where the scientist teaches (I assume you're talking about publicly funded, university research, since that's what the VAST majority of it is), which rewards publishing with tenure, and gives more weight to pay journals.
      2) Companies like Elsevier, who have participated in a massive smear campaign in order to convince people that open access journals don't include as rigorous peer review. Rare is the researcher who understands the difference between open access and paywalls.

      This is a seriously complicated issue (I'm a librarian who deals with this all day, every day).

    2. Re:false choices by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Private companies do science [slashdot.org] all the time [nytimes.com] because they need [bit-tech.net] to push their knowledge forward to stay competitive [cisco.com].

      You're missing the rather large distinction between basic and applied research. Most companies do science with the explicit goal of advancing products to the market, and are very reluctant to spend time and money on anything that doesn't have a clear route to commercialization. (I'm not saying this as a put-down: their job is to make money, not publish journal articles.) But most basic research, at least in the field of biomedicine, can take decades before commercialization is feasible, if that ever happens - and there's no way to know in advance whether it will or not.

      My favorite example is X-ray crystallography, which pharmaceutical companies use to study the molecular interactions between proteins and drug candidates. The first experiments were performed in 1937, the first atomic-resolution structures were published in 1961, and I believe the first application to drug design was sometime in the 1980s. It's not like those lazy academics were just sitting on their hands all this time; it took them decades just to work out the math involved, and there were multiple Nobel prizes awarded in the process. Now academics and companies solve thousands of crystal structures every year, but it still took the rest of the 1980s and 1990s for the technology to develop enough to support that pace.

      There are actually a handful of companies that are so profitable (or so large) that they can subsidize undirected basic research: IBM is one, also Genentech, Novartis, and arguably Google and Microsoft. And smaller companies will publish bits and pieces of their directed research as well, if the lawyers let them. But for most, they can't spend decades developing a theory; their shareholders would never stand for it.

    3. Re:false choices by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      First of all: scientific research for no relevant purpose at all should be done with DONATIONS not with violent attack on individual freedoms to deprive people of their property.

      If you want your argument to be taken seriously, drop the hyperbole. Unless you live in North Korea or Turkmenistan or Cuba, no one is preventing you from leaving if you don't like the way your country is run.

      Secondly I immediately thought of a counter example to your argument [wikipedia.org].

      That isn't really a counter-example, because Corning pursued the project with the goal of near-term commercialization. The fact that it failed at the time is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it's "basic research".

    4. Re:false choices by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Apparently nothing is good for you, a company invests in research and shelves it because it didn't pan out and later the need resurfaced, the research is not research because a particular goal was in mind. So the particular goal in mind is what separates research you like from research you don't like? The money that goes towards research you don't like comes from the pockets of the people that are willingly spending on it and inventing or discovering something that becomes useful decades later, but you don't like their intentions, I see, yet you don't have a problem with the gov't violently stealing money from people to subsidise the goal-less (I take it) research that you personally approve of.

      Also I did leave a number of times, I left a number of countries.

    5. Re:false choices by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      You're projecting an awful lot of opinions that I never stated, implicitly or explicitly. I do not disapprove of anything that Corning did, nor do I object to its intentions. I am merely trying to make a distinction between basic research, applied research, and product development. All are essential, but only the latter two make money. I don't want to get sucked into a religious argument about where the money should or should not come from, but that question is also irrelevant to the distinction. Basic research, no matter who pays the bills, is done with the understanding that it may not lead to anything commercializable. Therefore companies focus on applied research, and product development (which academic basic researchers tend to be lousy at). I don't expect them to do anything else, but someone still has to do the basic research.

    6. Re:false choices by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      So I see, an argument about individual freedom not to be abused by government is 'religious' and applied research does not lead to better understanding of principles. Applied research also may not lead to anything profitable and it also increases our knowledge of the universe around us, the added benefit is that we do not have to absorb cost of millions of failed research teams and time that is wasted (most of the time) on nonsense, so it doesn't hurt the economy in any way. Basic research should be done if there are enough people to donate to the cause of it and whoever wants to do it should be asking for donations from private parties, not using violence of gov't, which creates resentment.

    7. Re:false choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I see, an argument about individual freedom not to be abused by government is 'religious'

      The argument is deemed religious because you make it on the basis of your religious beliefs rather than on the basis of any factual arguments. If the topic were on bird evolution and a young-earth creationist came in and declared that because the bible says so birds were made as birds and were always birds - rather than descending from dinosaurs - the response would be the same.
       
       

      Basic research should be done if there are enough people to donate to the cause of it and whoever wants to do it should be asking for donations from private parties

      You don't know much of how research is done in the US, do you? A large amount of scientific research in the US is funded by a variety of private organizations including the heart association, the cancer society, the Lion's Club, and many others. Indeed the researchers spend a lot of time asking groups for money, whether those groups are private or public.
       
       

      not using violence of gov't,

      Researchers have no connection to "violence", regardless of what you may choose to believe.
       
       

      which creates resentment.

      Just because you resent paying taxes doesn't mean that all Americans resent new medical breakthroughs.

  12. Popularity & prestige by poity · · Score: 1

    FTA:

    However, current scientific culture makes it hard to switch.
    A history of publication in prestigious journals is a prerequisite to every step on the career ladder of a scientist. Every paper submitted to a new, unproven OA journal is one that could have been published in heavyweights like Science or Nature. And even if a tenured or idealistic professor is willing to sacrifice in the name of science, what about their PhD students and co-authors for whom publication in a prestigious journal could mean everything?

    No one wants to be published by a no-name, and no one wants to let down their team mates by not trying for the most prestigious publishers. The big publishers have established a level of recognition, and since even scientists can be lazy and pass judgement on brand recognition alone, the fear of possibly being ignored because you didn't put 100% into self-promotion takes over.

    --
    your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    1. Re:Popularity & prestige by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. there's absolutely no intrinsic reason some of the academic associations couldn't come up with a mechanism for peer-reviewed open-source (or cheap) publishing. Given that authors and peer reviewers don't get paid, it would just be the cost of the organization of the venture that would need to be covered. You'd be looking at an editor-in-chief, some supporting editors, somebody to typeset the PDF (if it's an academic area where the work is not already done by the publisher), a web lackey. It's not easy as pie, but it's not terribly difficult either. Some of the grunt work would be done by students making not much more than minimum wage, quite likely sourced outside the publication stream (faculty grants, university money set aside for student jobs, student work grants, etc.)

      If enough faculty really wanted to see change, it would be done. (Some do, but clearly not enough.)

      As another poster said, it will be the university libraries that will eventually make it happen.

  13. Impact Factor by tstrunk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only reason scientists publish in journals behind paywalls is because they need the "Impact Factor" of the journal to put the publication on their CV so they can get better jobs and / or recognition among their peers. It's a vicious circle and one that science needs to leave

    A few scientists organized an Elsevier boycott last year http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/01/27/1322234/scientists-organize-elsevier-boycott and I had an idea back then, which I copy and paste here:
    """
    My solution for this would be a public network of papers, where everybody can publish, read and ‘sign’ those papers. If you agree with a paper, you put your signature under it and the worth of this paper goes up. As your ‘worth’ goes up your signature also gains in weight, when signing other papers. Every paper gets a comment section, where reviews can be written and errors pointed out.

    If a well known professor therefore signs your work, others will catch up to it. A ‘good’ paper will gain in publicity quickly due to being sent around a lot. One would also need to include a system of diminishing returns, as to avoid groups signing only their own papers. Ironing out these points of abuse will be the hardest part of this system.

    The specification above only consists of four to five sentences and yet I would call it much more stable and open than the currently completely anonymous reviewing system.
    """

    1. Re:Impact Factor by Gordo_1 · · Score: 1

      So basically a Facebook 'like' button for scientific papers? Hmmm, not a bad idea.

    2. Re:Impact Factor by joe_frisch · · Score: 2

      Its not just the scientists. Laboratories are judged (and to some extent funded) based on the total impact of their publications. You get there with a few easy steps:

      1) public decides that funding science is good
      2). lots of organizations compete for limited funding
      3). Public needs to decide how to allocate funding and needs a metric for measuring the performance of these organizations
      4) Public decides that peer review is a good metric
      5) Important publications are sent to the journals that have other important publications, those that are rejected go to lower level journals. This establishes a hierarchy of journals.
      6). The public considers publishing in higher "impact" journals as representing more value.

      It is all logical, and a difficult system to fix. If I have a really good publication, I am hurting my career and my laboratory and coworkers by not publishing it in one of the premier journals. I'm even hurting science because by publishing in a lower impact journal, my (presumed brilliant and important) publication will be read by fewer scientists.

      As an aside, a lot of the published material is also available to the public for free (all my stuff is also in SLAC pubs as is required by DOE), but these do not rate as high on a google search so you will have a more difficult time finding them. Google, like everyone else, gives higher ratings to the prestigious journals.

      I wish I knew how to fix this. It is quite frustrating that 3rd party companies are paid for my work. To add insult to injury, I often review papers for these journals - and am not paid for the reviews. I could turn down the review requests, but peer review IS a vital part of science.

      To the previous poster - the problem with non-anonymous reviews is the risk of "trading" good reviews, retaliation etc if the reviewers are known. Scientists are people, as easily tempted to misbehavior as any other group.

    3. Re:Impact Factor by tstrunk · · Score: 1

      To the previous poster - the problem with non-anonymous reviews is the risk of "trading" good reviews, retaliation etc if the reviewers are known. Scientists are people, as easily tempted to misbehavior as any other group.

      I completely agree. As money is involved, the system will be gamed a lot. However you are not competing with a perfect system. You are competing with a completely flawed system, where misbehaviour is the norm and being published in the big magazines happens a) because your science is actually good (system works) or b) you have a bigshot name and can therefore already push articles over the initial review wall (system failed). Now this is all under wraps and nobody can see it (and it makes me look like a conspiracy nut), but with a system like the mentioned one it would be public.

      I mentioned "diminishing returns" exactly because of what you said. If two people trade reviews, the first time they do their accumulated impact factor goes up by the full amount. If they do it again by 0.5... again by 0.25, etc. In other words it's healthy for you as a scientist to seek reviewers, who never reviewed your work yet. Reviewers could also be requested by the system at random (think Slashdot metamod). Public moderation systems can work as shown by slashdot comment moderation.

    4. Re:Impact Factor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like the Google PageRank system. It's a shame Google doesn't get involved, they could destroy Elsevier.

    5. Re:Impact Factor by joe_frisch · · Score: 2

      Your scheme has merit. Its complicated though, in a lot of fields there are only a very small number of experts who are qualified to review a paper, and you would need some way to get the "right" people doing the reviews. A paper with a provocative title like Kip Thorne's "Wormholes, Time Machines and the Weak Energy Condition" is likely to attract a hoard of people who are in no way qualified to evaluate the work. We see the same effect on Slashdot where a very technical article will be referenced and there will be a few comments from knowledgeable people, a lot will be from people who don't have the background to understand the original article.

      Still - I absolutely agree that we need a fix, but it is a tricky problem.

    6. Re:Impact Factor by kermidge · · Score: 1

      I like it. Science and its review done in plain sight; the closed groups might be handled via the comments section.

      The people who won't like this are those who don't know how science works, who can't see the end of their nose 'cuz it's stuck up the ass end of a perverted sense of prestige, who just happen all too often to be the people who run places and make endowments.

      This may also help with otherwise lost, unpopular, or seemingly screwy papers; there will at least be a place where they can be found. Even a screwy or plain wrong idea can stimulate a good question for research.

    7. Re:Impact Factor by ygtai · · Score: 1
    8. Re:Impact Factor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Researchgate are spammers. Please avoid!

    9. Re:Impact Factor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with this idea is that the majority of the people in the world are not educated to a level to be able to review and judge any particular paper for its merit. Papers with lots of "likes" would end up all being creationist lies or other pseudo-science driven by a political agenda and a marketing campaign rather than hard science. I'm in no way defending the current system it also allows agenda-driven "research", but judging merit by mod rule would create a worse condition than we already have.

    10. Re:Impact Factor by vkf1000 · · Score: 1

      For the life sciences, F1000Research might be just what you are looking for. All articles undergo transparent peer review after publication (referee names and comments are freely accessible to all), and once articles have passed peer review, they will be indexed in PubMed (a key marker of research quality in the life sciences). However, scientists from legitimate academic institutions are able to comment publicly on the paper, not just the invited reviewers. For more info see http://f1000research.com/

  14. Who pays for this? by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

    $19 billion plus academic publishing market for science, technology, engineering, and medical topics
      University libraries account for 80% of their customers.

    So what you're saying is that since the income of a typical university is 25% to 50% from tuition (and you can bet your ass that they justify the cost as providing access to students), that college students collectivly paid somewhere in the ballpark of $5 billion dollars to these companies.

    Now... I'm all for helping out my fellows, and collective bargaining seems to bring down prices, but when I don't want what's being bargained for it kinda screws me over. As someone with an engineering degree who never needed to look in a journal to get his degree, I'm moderately miffed about that cost. And arguably, if there wasn't money there they'd probably just release all that info for free. Academics are big on that.

  15. Worse than a paywall by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 1

    Worse than a paywall is the preposterous but ever more popular meme that lots of science should be secret so that terrorists can't get a hold of it and do blah blah blah. It is pure horseshit, but it will almost certainly gain enough political currency to be put into practice. For those of you foolish enough to take the contrary position, please note that scientific information has always been easily available in academic libraries. Making it secret would change the way science has been done for about 2 centuries or so. Also few, if any at all, recent terrorist attacks were informed by sophisticated scientific inputs. It is, in point of fact, pure unadulterated horseshit.

    1. Re:Worse than a paywall by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      pure unadulterated horseshit

      We are living in a golden scientific age, in the 50 odd years I've been walking the planet mankind's knowledge of the universe around him has exploded like no other time in history. Sure some powerful economic groups such as the coal industry would like to keep certain results hidden from the public but corporate anti-science propaganda is nothing new and nobody in the west is lobbying to shut the whole thing down for fear of terrorism. The journal model may seem antiquated and expensive in an age of instant answers but history indicates the practice has not been a significant impediment to conducting research in the past.

      Also few, if any at all, recent terrorist attacks were informed by sophisticated scientific inputs.

      They may have attacked with box cutters but they were trained to fly in a state of the art flight simulator and performed a sophisticated engineering analysis to find the towers Achilles heel. War and scientific knowledge go hand in hand, all sides have been using science for military advantage since the first ape man put a turd in a sling shot.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  16. How does it affect students? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If 80% of their customers are university libraries, just how much has tuition gone up because of these takeovers?
    Or how much grant money is lost to this?

  17. Elsevier sucks by Sir+Holo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is tough to determine where to publish... It is in part the responsibility of the young publisher (scientist) to know the reputation of the journal(s) to which s/he publishes. Although there has indeed been a flood of brand-new and un-pedigreed online-only journals, it is really up to the researcher to decide where to publish. Indeed, there have existed for many years "vanity journals," and conference-"proceedings" journals, to which aspiring assistant Profs. can contribute, but which have impact factors of less than one.

    Conference papers are one thing, but "real" publications are another thing entirely. Web-of-Science tries to explicitly avoid such gray-zone publications mentioned in a recent NYT article, and also, many top-tier journals do not consider "publication" in a conference proceedings to supersede, effectively, public dissemination of a work. That is, it doesn't count.

    I can say, from the perspective of an early-career and young CV-builder, that it is very difficult to figure out which journals in one's particular field are preeminent and worthy of submission of good work, but also, which "outlets" are not worthy of disclosure of "new" work or results. To be safe, a lot of us youngsters just stick to APL and JAP, simply because we know that they are (a) reputable with reasonable IFs, and (b) because we know we can get good work published in them. Branching out to other journals is fraught with risks; publication-wise, it is a difficult lottery. But, as the NYT article puts it, and as anyone who has observed, for example, Elsevier's for-profit actions in publishing papers from vanity conferences, one can get just about anything into print, for the right price.

    It is a significant risk, however, to publish in one of the new online-only journals. (What happens if they go bankrupt? Can you legally provide reprints?) The very real risk for anyone publishing in a for-profit online-only journal is, well, will your work be accessible in 10 years? 30 years? You grant a journal copyright when you publish, and in return, well, what do you get? Traditionally, you know that your work is in print in many scientific libraries across the world. But with an online-only and for-profit journal, you are granting them the same rights––are you guaranteed that your work will be accessible to all for the foreseeable future? No, you are not. When IP rights are in private control, they can change hands, at any time, as upon sale.

    Long story short––The existing model of non-profits owning copyrights to half of scientists' work is the standard (odious as that may be), but, a move to for-profit and online-only journals will only exacerbate the situation. Your life's work could end up inaccessible to anyone, if a for-profit enterprise (like Elsevier) decides that making-available of copies of your work is not profitable. Remember, you grant the journal copyright... That is where these online-only, and for-profit journals are headed. This sort of thing has happened over and over again in the past, under copyright, with movies, scripts, musical recordings, etc. Do you want to put science under the same yoke of private ownership of dissemination?

    Ask yourself: Should my work be made available for only 5 years? Or should it be made available in perpetuity to the readers of the journal to which I submit my work? Really, how valuable is your contribution? If in 50 years, there is someone with a question that can be answered by your work, should it not be available? (This is not fantasy. For example, space groups were fully developed 40 years before x-ray diffraction allowed the interpretation of crystal structures of materials based on diffraction-pattern symmetries.)

    Do you want your discoveries either locked up in copyright limbo, or lost in a region of cyberspace gone fallow? No. Science is a progression, and should not be stunted by any potential lack of accessibility, short-term or long.

    That is, OP, just agreeing with you that it's a problem, but one that hasn't found a solution yet.

    1. Re:Elsevier sucks by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1
    2. Re:Elsevier sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that it is very difficult to figure out which journals in one's particular field are preeminent and worthy of submission of good work,

      You've already read a bunch of journal articles, in the course of your career. Think about the ones that you thought were awesome. Publish in those journals.

      If this takes too much time, ask your advisor for advice. That is what he/she is there for.

  18. Same as Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When someone wants to spread knowledge, they give it away. When someone wants to limit knowledge, they paywall it, and make a culture of shame or lawsuits for anyone who gives the knowledge away.

  19. It's even worse by Rhywden · · Score: 4, Informative

    I recently wanted to get access to a single article from a magazine for teachers because I wanted to do something different this time and the name of the article promised an interesting viewpoint.

    However, my school did not subscribe to that magazine and it was an issue from 2004 to boot. So I went to Wiley's website and they offered me the option to buy a time-restricted access to that six(6)-page article. Yeah, you read that right: Shell out money and if you don't download the article as a PDF (which they offer, by the way) you lose access again. Doesn't really make sense but, hey...

    Anyway, put that article into the "cart" and proceeded to the checkout. 40€. For a single article. From a magazine which costs 90€ per year if you subscribe to it as a private person (4 issues a year, 7-8 articles per issue). Where the articles are written by teachers for other teachers.

    So I drove the 20 minutes to my local university after my school day had ended and photocopied the pages for 0.18€.

    Screw those guys.

    1. Re:It's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a cheap photocopier (assuming 6 copies). Still pretty reasonable if just 3 copies were made.

    2. Re:It's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience, shooting an email to the senior author and asking for the paper often saves much time in such cases. Not sure it was applicable here, but it has always worked for me. I've also been around long enough to remember pre-fabricated cards that used to be sent around between faculty asking for copies of papers not held in local libraries..

    3. Re:It's even worse by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      This was also a very cheap subscription price. The major journals in my field (chemical engineering) cost more than $1000 per year (each). The individual articles range from $25 to $40, depending on the journal.

    4. Re:It's even worse by Rhywden · · Score: 1

      That's why I was so angry with them - if you do a naive calculation of the average cost for an article per magazine per issue per year, you come up with roughly 3€ per article. Which means that it would have been more than a 1000% markup in my case.

      I could've understood a 100% markup because I'm not a subscriber - but this? That's racketeering in my book.

      By the way, I also contacted them to ask them about the logic behind that huge markup and the 24-hour access restriction. They actually answered. Just the latter question, though, with some kind of hogwash about the difficulties of providing long-term access and its costs. Yeah, that extra table enabling a many-to-many-relationship in the database, that must probably really take up some space!

    5. Re:It's even worse by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      Well, 3 Euros is an underestimation. I made a relevant post here. I would place the total cost a about $1300 per article. But that can still not justify their absurd profit margins.

  20. Mongols by WillgasM · · Score: 2

    to keep the Mongols at bay, or course.

    1. Re:Mongols by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, the next torrent site. The Mongol Bay, for scientific articles.

  21. Now you're getting it.. by GigaBurglar · · Score: 1

    Free as in freedom software?

    Working together has only ever generally yielded positive things.

    Universities should be at the centre of society - not corporations.

  22. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is science behind a paywall? -- "revenues reached $2.7 billion."

    Hmm. I guess we'll never know.

  23. The journal Science is by a non-profit by dlenmn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    To be fair, the journal Science is run by a non-profit, the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). I think it's still behind a paywall, but I have less problem funding a non-profit that way.

    1. Re:The journal Science is by a non-profit by dlenmn · · Score: 2

      Apparently new Science articles are behind a paywall for 1 year; then they available for free (although you have to register with the site).

    2. Re:The journal Science is by a non-profit by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      To be fair, the journal Science is run by a non-profit, the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). I think it's still behind a paywall, but I have less problem funding a non-profit that way.

      There are a lot of other journals like this. I publish frequently in journals published by a specialist academic organization - they are read by everyone in our field, the organization does good work in general (it's truly community-run), and their policies are generally reasonable. But they do still have some overhead that has to be paid somehow. We usually cough up the $1000 or $1500 or whatever for the open-access fee (that makes the articles free upon publication, instead of having to wait the 12 months that the NIH specifies), which I don't mind. It would be a real shame if these publishers went out of "business".

      Part of the problem with Elsevier and NPG however is that their open-access fees are insane - I read something like $7000 for an article in Nature, which is usually shorter than most of what I publish.

  24. Publishing in academic journals by twasserman · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Anyone pursuing an academic career knows that there are certain journals that are considered prestigious. Publishing your papers in such journals (typically those of professional societies and many of those owned by Elsevier, Springer, and Wiley) is an essential part of the academic promotion process. Failure to do so means that you are unlikely to be promoted to a senior tenured rank (e.g., Associate Professor), and is typically the end of your stay at that institution. Publishing in some of the new "fake" journals is worse than useless, even though it pads your resume. Many fields also look down upon conference papers, though that is less of a problem in computer science where there are numerous highly selective and well-regarded academically-oriented conferences, such as the Int'l Conf. on Software Engineering. Not surprisingly, many of the proceedings for those conferences are published by Elsevier and Springer.

    The whole process, to date, is self-perpetuating, since serving as an Editor or Associate Editor for a prestigious journal also gets you points when you come up for promotion. As noted by others, serving in an editorial capacity or even as a reviewer for these journals is uncompensated. (You might think of it as falling into the same category as contributing voluntarily to an open source project.) The best that one can say for this activity is that it helps build an academic network, making it easier to obtain recommendation letters from senior faculty to include in your promotion case. The best way to disrupt this system in the short-term is for libraries refuse to renew their exorbitantly-priced journal subscriptions. (Money talks.) The high-quality online journals (e.g.,PLoS) have not yet made a significant dent against the biggest academic publishers.

    1. Re:Publishing in academic journals by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      The libraries should refuse to pay the ridiculous prices of the publishers, but they should also offer an open-access preprint-publication service. The copyright for the article version before publishing (even after peer-review) belongs to the authors. The university libraries should:
      1. Quit all subscriptions. No exceptions. This will annoy a lot of people (as it once did myself) but it will pay back in the long run for everyone.
      2. Offer to buy only individual articles. As time passes, increase the time-limit of the articles that can be purchased this way. E.g. the first year all articles can be bought, the second year only articles that are at least one year old, and so on. This will also be more expensive in the first few years, but again, it will pay back in multiple in the long run. Maintain a database with all purchased articles to avoid dupes. When a purchase order comes for an article that is already there, pull it from the database. Do not make the database public: this will be copyright infringement.
      3. Put online a free-access preprint database of the all papers published by the university. Let Google Scholar index it and search it.
      4. Let researchers publish as usual, but when they submit their publication list to get tenure/PhD/diploma/whatever, demand pdf-preprints for all publications (after all, they are all legitimate publications and the authors should have the preprints, right?). Otherwise, no tenure/PhD/diploma/whatever, no dice. Put these preprints in the online a free-access database.
      5. Agree with other institutes/universities to do the same. If a university cannot afford the infrastructure (which should be not much, but let's say it is), they can team up with another university that can. Or, heck why not gather all state universities together and have them make a non-profit organization for this purpose. This way you'll have the prestige of many universities together (you can still stamp each preprint to know where it came from, if you must).

      This is the only realistic way, in my opinion, to change this system. It served us well in the 1900s, but this is the information age and things have to move on. The university where I worked had the online free database, but only included the dissertations of the PhDs that chose to publish this way. I say force them, and expand the concept to include articles and conference papers. And the library still had some subscriptions, so it was a half-assed attempt at best. The company that I work for now refuses to subscribe, but they will purchase individual articles. We had an internal database with all purchased articles that was searchable via the company intranet, but the legal department got complaints that intranet-access was still too "public" for the lawyers of Elsevier and their ilk.

  25. dangerous question by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    Some guy (Aaron something, I think) asked the same questioning and got jailed for 30 years. Don't try to understand how really is the system, it hates that.

    1. Re:dangerous question by PPH · · Score: 1

      jailed for 30 years.

      I heard that he escaped custody.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:dangerous question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, he got life...

  26. same as it ever was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Justice does not happen by itself, and those who's job it is to ensure justice are just as vulnerable to corruption as anyone else.

    The *only* way to ensure that you receive justice is to get up and fight for it yourself. You cannot rely on some other regulatory body to do it for you.

    Corruption is the path of least resistance. If you want right to be done, you must resist.

  27. How it (Supposedly) Works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Conventional publishing has one big plus -- you don't have to pay the journal. This is more important than it seems. Have a look at http://scholarlyoa.com/publishers/. The rise of the web means anybody with a server can pretend to be a publisher if they can get content, so you have this huge bubble of low grade journals who charge the authors a few hundred bucks for the 'service' of reviewing and then publishing the article. Problem is since the journal needs articles for income, standards tend to be low, reviewing poor or non-existent, and the value to the author of this 'open access' publication is zero.

    A conventional journal takes all the rights and gives nothing back, but (as someone who has published over 80 articles in places including Physical Review Letters) the quality of the review process is tangible and real. And this is partly because of the subscription model. Journals that are charging big subscriptions need to be of high quality. They need high impact factors, they need to make themselves key in the field so when times are tight and libraries are cutting the number of journals they take, your journal stays on the books. This encourages decent reviewing.

    Open access is a great idea and I am all for it, but it needs a model where quality is guaranteed, which means the journal income does not scale with the number of papers they accept. Maybe we need to take it away from 'journals' as such, and have institutions themselves collectively sponsor something like arXiv but with a second tier for papers that have passed some kind of review process. This would have the added benefit of being a 'one stop shop' that could combine database search with article repository, and could be mirrored the way something like ctan or cran is.

  28. $2,500 to $5,000 per article by peter303 · · Score: 2

    Nature, another annoying paywall journal (but very good), had a detailed study about two months ago on the of publishing an article in both print and pure electronic forms. This even assumed reviewers work for free. They included editorial staff, printing, distribution, archiving and all that stuff. Journals recover costs through subscriptions, author charges, and society fundraisers. In one society I am in the annual commercial convention is the largest fundraiser.

    1. Re:$2,500 to $5,000 per article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the article I think you are referring to, published in March. Behind a paywall of course. Just kidding :-) It looks like anybody can read it. VERY interesting, with actual numbers and the "price versus impact" chart is awesome. What is shows is open access journals still have significant costs, but that they are in range of the costs it takes for a society to fund them or for submitters to pay, or that with a little subsidy from a host university or other institution, it should be possible to cover. Those numbers make it pretty obvious it's the way we are going, but it's going to take some time, and even when we get there the traditional publishers are still going to have a huge mountain of older journal articles that they can sit on forever and mine for money every time someone wants to access them.

    2. Re:$2,500 to $5,000 per article by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      I call bullshit. Straightout.

      The diagram with the blocks (each representing $100) puts the "article processing" costs at just under $1500 per article for the online version (it only falls at $1400 for the open access online version). Now let's assume these costs apply for Nature itself. The current issue of Nature sports only 4 (!) articles and 12 "letters". All the rest "article" content I'll just refuse to count, since it is not science and a free online journal can certainly do without. So they are actually telling us that they need 96 grand a moth (Nature is weekly) to produce about 300 pages? (I am assuming 10 pages per full-length article and 3 for each letter, that is 76 pages per week, or 304 per month.) That, I would say, is a job for two typesetters, but let's say four, since diagrams and equations can be tricky, that each cost $10.000 a month including software fees. That is 40.000 a month, not 96.000. They would have us think that they need more than two times as much staff. I also don't see how "Administering peer-review" and "quality assurance" can cover this gap (assuming that editing, proofreading, typesetting and graphics are done by the four employees as per above). They are just spending the extra money on the non-science articles nobody reads and factor these costs in the average "per article" rate, but they want us to believe that a more low-profile open access journal will still have the same costs per article (since it only goes down from $1500 to $1400, to finish where I started).

      Now, I know I made some assumptions, but here's this: Nature, you can continue to claim your absurd fees, but, please, don't take us for idiots.

  29. vanishing new journal racks in libraries by peter303 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I used to like to browse the print editions of journals in reserach libraries. These have shrunk by 80% - 90% as many libraries switch to as-much-as-you-can-electronic policy. Plus its difficult to get electronic browsing permissions if you are just a visitor.

    1. Re:vanishing new journal racks in libraries by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      Usually libraries have terminals with the library's IP that gets recognized by the publisher and give you access to the subscribed material. And you can legitimately download too. You just need to find such a library (usually at a university).

    2. Re:vanishing new journal racks in libraries by Selanit · · Score: 2

      I'm systems librarian at an academic library, and at most places you can get full access if you can use a computer on the university campus. The publishers grant access based on IP ranges, and it only make sense to give them the whole campus range so that faculty can use the databases from their offices. So if you can use a campus computer, you can get the library's digital holdings.

      At my own library, we have a policy of allowing unlimited guest access for library research. If you walk up to the reference desk and say "I'm conducting research on Topic X and I need to use Database Y," we'll happily issue you a guest account for the campus network. The guest account lasts a week, but we'll renew it as long as you're still doing research.

      The harder part is off-campus access. Our guest accounts won't work for logging in from off campus, due to ITS policy. Also, our contracts with the publisher place pretty severe restrictions on who is allowed off-campus access. We can't even give it to our alumni. Not even if they offer to pay a fee. It annoys the heck out of me.

      The whole current academic publishing model is lousy for everyone but the publishers. Access is limited, the licensing is expensive and prices go up every freaking year. Meanwhile library budgets aren't even close to keeping pace. It's pretty common to have to cut something in order to retain access to something else. Makes me long for the days when we just bought physical books and journals -- you pay for them once, and then you have them. This paying year-after-year-after-year thing is for the birds.

  30. Fight back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't review for for-profit publishers, don't submit work, and found new open journals like JAIR and http://jcgt.org

  31. bring back copyright laws to the original terms by devent · · Score: 3

    Solution is easy: bring back copyright laws to the original terms. 14 years plus 14 year extension, and only for registered works.

    I don't think a publisher will register each and every of the 250,000 articles, and even if, at least the article would be available after only 14 years. The scientists can still publish with a publisher, the publisher could still sell the articles, but the articles wouldn't be locked away for 200 years (or whatever the copyright terms are currently).

    You wonder if the Mickey Mouse Extension Act of 1998 have any cost to the public? Here you have it.

    --
    http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
  32. fuck man by Osgeld · · Score: 1

    why should we be paying scientists as well?

  33. Re:No, science is invaluable. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Let's get one thing straight. Science in and of itself is not valuable. It is *more* than valuable. It can be used to *create* value, but there is a big difference there. Science is knowledge, and knowledge should be free and accessible to the public, so that that public can *create* valuable things from it. Just as you cannot put a price on 1+1=2, you cannot put a price on science. Science is invaluable. People who want to put a price on science are people that want to control knowledge for their own benefit.

  34. Journal articles as a copyright exception? by PeterM+from+Berkeley · · Score: 1

    Your point also applies to books that go out of print. If you can't get a copy, you're SOL.

    Maybe laws should be passed putting all scientific papers in public escrow: if rapacious profiteering occurs or other market failure to provide copyrighted scientific works at a reasonable price, the Library of Congress makes it available online free.

    I think $0.25 per page up to a maximum of $5 for an article is pretty reasonable, how about you?

    --PM

    1. Re:Journal articles as a copyright exception? by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      PeterM: I think $0.25 per page up to a maximum of $5 for an article is pretty reasonable, how about you?

      That's much better than the $40 I have paid to read my own articles in an occasional time-pinch.

  35. scholar.google.com by justthinkit · · Score: 1

    They are involved.

    --
    I come here for the love
    1. Re:scholar.google.com by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      They offer a specialized search engine, yes, but they do not publish original research material. I would be a complete fanboy if they did. Anything to escape Elsevier.

  36. Simple, because science costs money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Either patrons or taxes or fees.. gotta pay for speculative research somehow.

  37. IEEE is the same by stooo · · Score: 1

    IEEE makes the same thing. it robs authors of their rights and, even worse, prevents people from accessing research. BAD GUYS.

    --
    aaaaaaa
  38. Because you decided not to fund it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because you've allowed free-market fundamentalism mean that the science research has to be "monetized" instead of funding it, because you decided to insist that private corporations could part-fund the research but get complete control over the result.

    Because you decided not to fund it, it's no longer yours for free.

  39. Blame the Scientists by jopet · · Score: 1

    If they would not do everything to publish in those journals from those companies, the companies would have no chance to be evil.

    But backbones are unfortunately rare things among scientists who will do close to anything to get funded and even more to get a high-impact paper published.

  40. Because we are an 0wn3r society. by MickLinux · · Score: 1

    Basically, we value the laborer not at all, and we give all value to those who 0wn others.

    So the grad student who did the work, basically will maybe profit, a little; the directing prof who basically gets the funding profits a lot; the university football team profits tons; the contracting companies profit even more; and Elsevier profits even more.

    Meanwhile, the grad student may be able to access his own work in twenty years. Maybe.

    The key to being an 0wn3r society, is that you have to reassign 0wn3rship from the ones who do the work, to l33ts who did nothing except party and drink, and tell the pols what good guys they are.

    There's another word for an 0wn3r society: socialism. That includes both communism (Soviet/Chinese style 0wn3rs) and fascism (Naziism, and Us'ns' style of 0wn3rs).

    Both types self destruct; so far, the self-destruction of fascism has been quite explosively violent. The self-destruction of communism has tended to be very criminal: though mafias, human traffic, and such. I am not sure that it has to be that way, but it may be.

    0wn3r societies are both contrary to simple justice; but under simple justice, people don't have the hope of hitting it big, so that the whole world can see or be made to believe what hugely great a person he is. [Think of Putin, who has to be a sports star, a rock star, an astronaut, whatever.] So human wickedness tends to like 0wn3r societies, even when the person has no actual hope of being on top. Human wickedness has no grip on reality.

    And since most humans are very much in the grip of their own wickedness [when's the last time you saw someone who *didn't* gossip? Who didn't defend themselves against unjust or partially just attacks?] then we're going to tend towards 0wn3r societies.

    Enjoy the ride.

    --
    Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
  41. Scam of the century by Helio+Spheric · · Score: 2

    Paid access to knowledge is the biggest scam of the century. Scientists sometimes have to pay to have their papers published, and sign away their copyright. They are kept in check with the so-called peer-review process which ensures that they play by the rules: support the status quo (ie the money making machine), or we'll trash your reputation, or ban you from being published. That people can hold knowledge hostage to money is morally reprehensible.

  42. How do you figure? by justthinkit · · Score: 1
    but they do not publish original research material.
    .

    I visited scholar.google.com yesterday and they made it clear what it would take for them to find your work: .pdf extension, pretty much. So, if you don't publish elsewhere and they find it, then it is original.

    I think the only definition of "original" that scholar.google.com does not fit is one where they are the only publishers of something. Not sure how many would even want that.

    Seems they are doing a proper "google" here...vacuuming up any paper that any academic wants to have published. Sounds like "publishing originial research material" and then some, to me.

    If I have cluelessly misunderstood you, please advise.

    --
    I come here for the love
    1. Re:How do you figure? by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      They do not publish the articles. Google Scholar is not a publishing company, its a search engine. The pdfs need to be already available on a server and only then can Google find them and display them as search-hits. I cannot "upload" my article on Google Scholar and thus make it widely available (so that it can be searched, found, commented upon, ranked, whatever). I think that falls under your sentence "where they are the only publishers" (in your post above). And I would like that.

    2. Re:How do you figure? by justthinkit · · Score: 1
      They do not publish the articles.
      .

      No need to. You are doing it on your web site...that they found.

      Google Scholar is not a publishing company, its a search engine. The pdfs need to be already available on a server

      Yes, and they are, as mentioned several times before.

      and only then can Google find them and display them as search-hits.

      And?

      I cannot "upload" my article on Google Scholar and thus make it widely available (so that it can be searched, found, commented upon, ranked, whatever).

      False, false, false, false, whatever.

      Google Scholar does have ranking ability as well. I guess you never bothered to check it out to not know this.

      --
      I come here for the love
    3. Re:How do you figure? by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      I cannot "upload" my article on Google Scholar and thus make it widely available (so that it can be searched, found, commented upon, ranked, whatever).

      False, false, false, false, whatever.

      Give me a link where I can upload my preprint on a Google server.

  43. Question answered in the actual question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its all about the money.

  44. Why? by duhjim · · Score: 1

    Because they wan't to make it feel like pornography.

  45. The way I see it... by spyke252 · · Score: 2

    Researchers should sell journals a "License" that allows the journal to print the researchers IP, but the researcher still owns the IP and can sell other people the license as well.