Georgia Tech and Udacity Partner for Online M.S. in Computer Science

Georgia Tech and Udacity — the online courseware project led by Sebastian Thrun — have announced a plan to offer an accredited M.S. Computer Science program online. The two organizations are also working with AT&T. This is the first time a major university has made an actual degree available solely through the MOOC format. Getting a degree in this manner is going to be much cheaper than a traditional degree: "... students also will pay a fraction of the cost of traditional on-campus master’s programs; total tuition for the program is initially expected to be below $7,000." U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan said, "Massive open online courses (MOOCs) have quickly become one of the most significant catalysts of innovation in higher education. As parents know all too well, America urgently needs new ideas about how to make higher education accessible and affordable. This new collaboration between Georgia Tech, AT&T and Udacity, and the application of the MOOC concept to advanced-degree programs, will further the national debate — pushing from conversations about technology to new models of instruction and new linkages between higher education and employers." Georgia Tech is looking at the big picture: "At present, around 160,000 master’s degrees are bestowed in the United States every year in computer science and related subject disciplines; the worldwide market is almost certainly much larger, perhaps even an order of magnitude larger."

Comments

damn kids

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually had to go to school and meet people and have sex with girls. Now you can just do it from your mom's basement? you kids have it so much better these days,

Re:damn kids

[fazey]

This is probably why the UN called for legalization of prostitution. These kids need to get laid somehow.

Ga Tech should offer an online football program

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather say I played football at Georgia Tech than that I got a CS degree there.

I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

For all those Silicon Valley Tech companies that can't get "qualified" people, might I suggest they use their billions and pay for us unqualified Americans?

It'll be a tax write-off and great PR - "We understand that there's a problem with STEM education in this country and we're going to help. We need qualified people, so we're going to be good corporate citizens."

They won't do it though because they are all full of shit. There is no shortage and they'd rather of H1-Bs.

They'd rather spend their money on lobbying Congress, legal fees for getting around laws, etc... than actually solving the "problem" - which doesn't exist, anyway.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that what this is? Enrollment is coming from AT&T & GT corporate affiliates and a lot of the funding is coming from AT&T.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Required Snark]

Mod this up. H1-B visas are the new indentured servitude, which is why US corporations want an unlimited supply. The STEM shortage is bogus.

Re:I have a suggestion

[TWiTfan]

They tried to hire you, dude. But for some reason you wouldn't take the generous $15,000-year/no-benefits package they offered, so they had to import Sanjay.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

They took yer jewb?

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies say they don't prefer H1-B visas, but the fact of the matter is that you can get someone for an H1-B visa that gets the work done, and leaves. You don't have to give them raises, and if you do when they leave you hire someone new on an H1-B at the starting rate of the first worker, you won't have to match any 401k benefits because it is extremely unlikely they will be putting money into a 401k, and I am sure there are a few other monetary benefits to hiring H1-Bs.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that what this is? Enrollment is coming from AT&T & GT corporate affiliates and a lot of the funding is coming from AT&T.

All they said was

partly supported by a generous gift from AT&T,

Define "generous". $100? $1,000, $10,000 $1,000,000? $Billion?

And where is the money from Microsoft, Facebook, Intel, IBM, Oracle, and every other Silicon Valley company that's bitching about not being able to get "qualified" people?

Why didn't THEY do this first? Stodgy old AT&T got in first?

Why isn't this program free? And don't give me this BS that by charging money you'll get the "serious" students. Take a FREE class on Coursera sometime and you'll see how serious we are.

Back in the days when Silicon Valley were true innovators - back when Hewlet Packard, Fairchild Semiconductor or those greats were paving the way to our modern economy with real innovation and brilliance, they never bitched about "we can't get qualified people! Waaaa!"

Hell no! They wrote checks to the local universities and said, make us some engineers.

Did they say, "We need people to hti the ground running!"

Hell no. They took new grads, had them work under an old fart for a while (or they figured everything out for themselves for REALLY new stuff) and groomed.

Today's Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are nothing but over-entitled posers who just want to suck everything they can out of us.

Re:I have a suggestion

[BonThomme]

"Today's Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are nothing but over-entitled posers who just want to suck."

TFTFY

Re:I have a suggestion

[lightknight]

But...but...the law says they have to offer a locally competitive salary that-*snort* yeah, it was pretty much proven bullsh*t recently. Surprising that it took a leftist (hah) think-tank (haha) looking at economics (basic supply and demand) to realize that if the wages for STEMs have remained stagnant this past decade, there can't be a shortage. It's soooo blindingly obvious, yet apparently the legislature, which is being told to ram through that bill at top speed (did it go through, anyone?), needs a think-tank to tell them it's going in the wrong direction.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about Silicon Valley, but all the San Francisco entrepreneurs wanted to suck my cock. (The guys, anyway).

Re:I have a suggestion

[ranton]

... to realize that if the wages for STEMs have remained stagnant this past decade, there can't be a shortage. It's soooo blindingly obvious ...

While I am not a fan of our H1B program, stagnant wages do not mean there is no a shortage. If there is a shortage of Doctors then the wages will go up because everyone wants to live forever. If there is a shortage of Lawyers then wages will go up because no one wants to be a pro se defendent. But if there is a shortage of IT workers then most companies just hold off on upgrading their old systems because they would have to pay too much.

If we stopped the H1B program, wages for IT would certainly go up. But innovation and improvements in IT would go down because companies would have to be much more careful about where they spend their money. Foreign companies wouldn't have to worry about this, because they would still have access to cheap labor, and US companies would start falling behind (or at least lose some of their edge).

So there is a shortage of IT workers. There is a shortage of IT workers that companies would be willing to pay. And that is a problem not only for these companies, as it would become a problem for the whole country if we turned off the spigot and lost our lead in tech to the rest of the world.

I don't know what the real answer for this is, because as I said before I think our current system isn't a very good solution. But the solution, and even correct diagnosis of the problem, are not as "blindingly obvious" as you make it seem.

Re:I have a suggestion

[frodo from middle ea]

Yes, that's why most of the "Sanjay"s I see , drive around in BMWs, and Acuras, and Audis. Seriously try finding a single "Sanjay" imported in US, who works for those wages.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

But if there is a shortage of IT workers

IT is not the same as CS. If you need an IT worker, you hire people with Vo-Tech degrees and outside certifications, you're not looking for someone with a college degree.

Re:I have a suggestion

[bill_mcgonigle]

needs a think-tank to tell them it's going in the wrong direction

There's no "need" - they know exactly what the situation is, but the legislation is payback to corporate donors. It's plain and simple corruption - the think tanks only point out the obvious to be an inconvenience.

Re:I have a suggestion

[GodfatherofSoul]

That's simplistic. If an industry colludes to either suppress wages or change laws to increase the labor pool (lowering certification and licensing standards or H-1Bs) wages won't reflect supply and demand trends. Remember that plane that went down from icing in New England 5 years or so ago? The copilot was making about $20K/year. This is in a time when Vietnam-era pilots are retiring, so the War Boom of skilled pilots is passing.

In fact wages in IT seem to be worse in the industry considering what was happening during the DotCom bubble.

Re:I have a suggestion

[bill_mcgonigle]

most companies just hold off on upgrading their old systems because they would have to pay too much.

For most [competent] companies, the ROI of an IT system is much greater than the marginal difference in IT worker wages, or else they wouldn't be implementing them in the first place.

Re: I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

In the nineties maybe. IT degrees are a thing now and getting hired for any decent IT job requires one at a lot of places. If you want to pull cable or move computers around get the votech cert. If you sant to do IT in any business if any size then vet the degree.

Re:I have a suggestion

[ranton]

IT is not the same as CS. If you need an IT worker, you hire people with Vo-Tech degrees and outside certifications, you're not looking for someone with a college degree.

What does your simplistic definition of IT have to do with my post? The IT industry commonly includes jobs ranging from CIO to software developer to network administrator.

Re:I have a suggestion

[ranton]

If an industry colludes to either suppress wages or change laws to increase the labor pool (lowering certification and licensing standards or H-1Bs) wages won't reflect supply and demand trends

I completely agree with that. In fact, it was pretty much the entire point of my post. But the rest of my post was dealing with whether or not this is still a good thing for the country. If US companies had to deal with the supply and demand of only US IT workers, but the rest of the world was able to use the entire global supply and demand of IT workers, I think it would do great harm to our country.

I understand that this is just my opinion, but I think it is a pretty reasonable one.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

But that would ruin his strawman! We can't have that!

Re:I have a suggestion

[ranton]

For most [competent] companies, the ROI of an IT system is much greater than the marginal difference in IT worker wages, or else they wouldn't be implementing them in the first place.

Well if our country took your viewpoint, at least in 100 years the United States will be able to look back on a century of decline and find comfort knowing that the only reason we failed was because our companies weren't competent enough to make the correct decisions. [Sarcasm] That moral high ground is much more important than actually creating government policies that account for the human frailty and greed that actually go into many important corporate decisions. [/Sarcasm]

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

They tried to hire you, dude. But for some reason you wouldn't take the generous $15,000-year/no-benefits package they offered, so they had to import Sanjay.

seriously?? I know a lot of 'Sanjay's' earning 8-10 times that with less than 10 years of experience. oh! don't forgot to add benefits that most of America doesn't see like 401k, fully paid medical insurance, paid time-off and much more. And I am sure the housing boom in SF bay area is not due to $15,000 year salaries.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Musc]

Since when does IT mean software developer? You are thinking "programmer". I always thought IT meant sysadmin.

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

AT&T probably just donated infrastructure. Either way this type of stuff (moving things online) makes AT&T a lot of money in the long run as everyone becomes dependent upon their infrastructure.

Re:I have a suggestion

[bill_mcgonigle]

Well if our country took your viewpoint, at least in 100 years the United States will be able to look back on a century of decline and find comfort knowing that the only reason we failed was because our companies weren't competent enough to make the correct decisions.

huh? H1B's are going to save the country?

That moral high ground is much more important than actually creating government policies that account for the human frailty and greed that actually go into many important corporate decisions.

So allow H1B's to prop up poorly run corporations that make inefficient hiring decisions?

Re:I have a suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

>And where is the money from Microsoft, Facebook, Intel, IBM, Oracle, and every other Silicon Valley company that's bitching about not being able to get "qualified" people?

They already pay well enough to hire from the best CS departments from universities all across the globe, either full time or H1-B (which also get paid full salary at such companies and get put on the citizenship track). Why would they need to fund a second- or third-rate masters program to get people?

It's the body shops that are bitching about not having enough people and they're not about to fund anything.

Re:I have a suggestion

[0xdeadbeef]

But if there is a shortage of IT workers then most companies just hold off on upgrading their old systems because they would have to pay too much.

You're deliberately conflating the wealth creating profession of software development with the maintenance profession of information technology administration to hide the emptiness of your argument.

And I'm wondering what an actual economist would say of your characterization. You've explicitly described the demand curve as elastic - raise the price, they buy fewer programmers, lower the price, they buy more. But almost by definition, shortages are impossible in that situation without some kind of external restriction. They want more, more, more, but for some reason they're unwilling to pay the higher price such vociferous demand requires.

Re:I have a suggestion

[ranton]

huh? H1B's are going to save the country?

While obviously this is just one factor in our country's success (along with education, handling entitlements, etc.), the Information Technology industry has been a major driver of our country's success for at least the last three decades. Failing to keep our lead in this industry would have disastrous effects on our economy, IMHO. And we cannot rely just on US talent if our corporations are going to compete with the rest of the world. We only have about 5% of the world's population, and probably less than 40% of the worlds smartest and most educated people (based on number of Nobel Prizes won; I couldn't think of a better measure).

Our percentage of the world's smartest and most educated people is going to continue to drop as other countries catch up, so the amount of foreign born employees our companies will need will continue to go up. So yes, I believe our country will fail to be a world leader if we fail to attract the world's best and brightest (and those "only" in the top 20-30%) in the future.

So allow H1B's to prop up poorly run corporations that make inefficient hiring decisions?

Some small to medium sized business that doesn't understand the usefulness of a better website or more efficient CRM system is not necessarily a poorly run business. I have worked with many great business owners who do their job very well but just don't understand computers and their usefulness. My consulting company works with a lot of them. These companies, and their customers, would not run as well if they had to spend a considerable amount more on IT solutions (because they would often stick with paper-based solutions).

Most progressives understand that supply and demand does not always work to better our country. That is why we have trust busting laws and other regulations. A successful VISA program is something that any successful country needs to have. It needs to let in enough people that our country's companies get the work that they need to compete with a global economy, but not let in so many that our economy is crushed by the weight of a truly free market.

Re:I have a suggestion

[ranton]

But if there is a shortage of IT workers then most companies just hold off on upgrading their old systems because they would have to pay too much.

You're deliberately conflating the wealth creating profession of software development with the maintenance profession of information technology administration to hide the emptiness of your argument.

I said old systems, not old hardware. Companies hold onto old CRM and ERP systems, and plenty of other software systems because they don't want to pay for something better. Even more common, in my experience, is for companies to try and modify their business processes to match new software systems instead of doing the necessary customizations and integrations to make them work better. This is a major cause of a lack in user buy in and in just overall poor implementations.

And I'm wondering what an actual economist would say of your characterization. You've explicitly described the demand curve as elastic - raise the price, they buy fewer programmers, lower the price, they buy more. But almost by definition, shortages are impossible in that situation without some kind of external restriction. They want more, more, more, but for some reason they're unwilling to pay the higher price such vociferous demand requires.

I am not sure how anything you said here differs with what I said. Without some kind of external restriction, like the VISA system, there would be absolutely no shortage. Companies would just ship over a million more immigrants each year and pay as little as they could get away with. That would obviously be disastrous for our economy, so thankfully we have external restrictions to our primarily free market system.

Re:I have a suggestion

[bill_mcgonigle]

if we fail to attract the world's best and brightest

We need to attract them on a permanent basis to make any lasting improvements, not on temporary H1B's. An H1B employer can apply for a green card for its H1B employees, but if their primary motivation is their low cost, then that's not the route they'll chose to go.

(because they would often stick with paper-based solutions).

If they persist on such pigheadedness, their more nimble (and smarter) competitors will gradually put them out of business. These better companies will provide lower prices to consumers, better delivery, more efficient processes (which have positive environmental impacts) and will create more overall employment. This model has proven itself throughout every industry that didn't enjoy legal protection for the incumbents.

The US has a lot of un/un-employed STEM workers, each of which is already a drain on society if they're collecting government benefits. Getting those workers employed in native companies should be the primary goal; taking in foreign workers to make up any additional gaps above and beyond that makes total sense, but that's not the current situation (see a recent review of the numbers here).

Re:I have a suggestion

[0xdeadbeef]

Without some kind of external restriction, like the VISA system

It's not an acronym.

Now you're confusing the demand curve with the supply curve. The restrictions that cause shortages are almost always price controls, and there are no price controls, just people whining that the price is too damn high.

Sure, your finite supply can be exhausted, but last time I checked, there are still tens of thousands of people of people who could be programmers who aren't, instead they are doctors, lawyers, stockbrokers, CEOs, etc. It takes about five years to become a competent programmer, but people have been screaming "shortage" for fifteen. Clearly the incentives aren't high enough.

Unless you mean to say the availability of this foreign market is the variable influencing the demand curve, as if the very reason people deny the market price for programmers is that they are all waiting on the government to increase supply for them. Though then you would have to admit that the very purpose of the visa program is the surpress existing wages.

Re:I have a suggestion

[kjs3]

Define "generous". $100? $1,000, $10,000 $1,000,000? $Billion?

Let me Google that for you: $2m.

Why didn't THEY do this first? Stodgy old AT&T got in first?

Because AT&T has been providing "generously" to Georgia Tech for decades? Because West coast money tends to go to West coast schools like Stanford and Berkeley? This isn't a surprise around here.

[Sad anti-SV screed deleted]

Back in the day, when a Silicon Valley entrepreneur didn't like how the world worked or his place in it, did he take time out of numbly browsing the web to piteously vent his spleen on some meta-news site?

Hell no. They start their own company. BTW...they still do that.

Re:I have a suggestion

[kjs3]

AT&T donated many, many millions of dollars of infrastructure to Georgia Tech in the 80s under that theory. Since we don't seem to be using 3B2 decendants, DMD & BLIT terminals, running StarLAN or Datakit networks, and even the "Unix" we use is more often than not Linux, I don't think they'd do that again.

In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

It is all well and good when you want to learn something over the net. But if you start giving degrees over the net, the system will be gamed almost instantly. Already in traditional universities, there is cheating going on. There are people in India with advanced degrees willing to do your homework for you for ridiculously low prices. Now they will do your entire coursework for you on a turn key basis. Send in a cheque, and they do all the work and you get the degree.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Salgak1]

That might get you TO an interview, but I very much doubt that your example of offshoring your own coursework will get you past the first technical interview. You simply cannot BS your way past demonstrating technical depth.

CAVEAT: I got MY Masters in MIS entirely online. I also put 20+ hours a week into it for over two years to do so, on top of a full-time job. As always, reward is commensurate with effort expended.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not unlike the University giving away "Honorarily degrees" to famous guests already cheapen it for the ones that pay to get an education.
Now anyone can buy their own degrees as long as they have money and no longer needed to be a politician or royal blood of any kind to get a degree without efforts.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's quite likely that the exams will be taken in a controlled environment where identity can be verified. This is part of where the tuition money will go: into paying the people that are there to control that you are who you say you are. Yes, you can probably off-shore your homework, but you can't off-shore your learning.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's my understanding that most reputable online classes make you take your tests in a local testing center (the same ones that proctor professional certification exams), with at least a modicum of protection against cheating.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Salgak1]

That was my experience. And papers were checked for plagiarism via TurnItIn.com. (Note: not going to go into the Intellectual Property problems of TurnItIn and similar services, just that they were used to prevent/reduce fraud. . .)

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

As always, reward is commensurate with effort expended.

Utter bullshit. Now, if you had prefaced your statement with the alternative "With luck..."

If it were always, i'd be earning more than the CEO at my work, who gets to go home after 40 hours, while I get to go home after working another 15 or so hours unpaid.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a MPA from a regionally accredited for-profit, online university I attended while I worked there (it was free for employees).

I graduated with a 4.0 and "Distinction". I was on the "President's List" since the list's inception. I don't mention these things because I am bragging; I mention them because it was a fucking joke.

I put forth the minimum effort required. I didn't do the readings, I spent less than 20 minutes on homework, and I would write the 15 page assignments due every other week in a day.

Working for this institution I saw the grades of others and knew that people were getting mostly As and Bs and even with the minimum effort I was putting in, my quality of work was far better. Sad really.

It's not that online programs are any more or less jokish than any other masters program it's just that higher education as a WHOLE sucks and needs to stop catering to the lowest common denominator just because they need revenue (for-profits and not-for-profits included).

I doubt an online masters will get you in the door anywhere; on the contrary, it may hinder you somewhat. Thankfully I have a decade of experience and regular promotions on my resume to senior management so finding jobs has nothing to do w/the three letters I could (but don't) put next to my name.

YMMV.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

It is not plagiarism. An actual human being did actual work. Except the "enrolled" student at Penn State was partying his way to glory, his paid Jeeves in India who happens to be an underpaid assistant professor in a college does the home work. You can't detect it by any algorithm.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I can tell you got your "degree" from an on line diploma mill because you make grand conclusions based on one personal anecdote. The online diploma might get some respect in the first year or two. Once the system gets gamed, and it attracts free loaders looking for easy degree, its value will plummet. You might not be called for an interview if your degree was from an on line diploma mill.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

What was that you work really hard at moving the company over to open source or in-house solutions that save the company big on licensing and instead of giving you a raise they buy out their competitor and you now 5 new bosses Bob.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought Les Paul deserved his honorary degree, he did after all innovate many of the recording techniques, equipment, the electric guitar, and is mentioned multiple time in the textbooks.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell you got your "degree" from an on line diploma mill because you make grand conclusions based on one personal anecdote.

Pot.. kettle.. black..

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[borcharc]

I found in person MBA to be a complete joke at a "prestigious" regional school. I can't say I am surprised that you had similar experience with an online MPA. Graduate management programs are a joke.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

It goes the other way too though.

Out on the Cube Farm, nobody knows that your online degree demonstrates that you are *not* a dog.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Yebyen]

Have you looked at the courses at Udacity? They are more advanced topics than the ones discussed at my undergraduate computer science program, which admittedly can no longer be found in any of the Top Computer Science Ranking lists (wtf? last time I checked, Rochester Institute of Technology was ranked next to Carnegie Mellon for computer science undergrad); but back to Udacity, I have not taken their courses, but browsing the course catalog I got a strong impression that if they are anything like they appear on the surface, the coursework is rich and engaging.

Take a look at the coursework before you make that judgement, especially if you are in a hiring position. I would consider this option for my MS in Comp Sci, you can't beat the price.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the Article, all exams are proctored @ a testing center.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shh... don't tell anyone... some of us might be able to make a living pretending to be 1000 students at the same time...

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Bios_Hakr]

That may apply in most cases. However, a degree is now acting as a barrier for entry to jobs people are fully qualified for.

I have seen government contractors hired with a BS in Art History and a CCNA over candidates with HS diploma and a CCNP. It's happening more and more to those of us who just want to ride routers all day. We know the job and lack of a degree should be seen as a good thing. We aren't looking to replace our bosses. We don't want to become managers or team leads or any of that crap. We just want to sit in darkness and work on network stability and optimization.

I'm sure you can find the same thing in CS. People who know how to code, but lack a degree for whatever reason. You'll pass over a candidate who's been programming since age 8 and select a candidate who first heard of programming in his Intro to Computers class.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[AuMatar]

Having taken a few of them- they're a good overview, but they don't provide anywhere near the depth I expect of a college undergrad course, much less grad school. MITX is much better, and even coursera is better. The only "advantage" of udacity is celebrity teachers and a slightly better website.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Yebyen]

Thanks! That's really very helpful.

Re: In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Anonymous Coward]

i think the parent was speaking in terms of education, in which case reward is very much linked to the effort put in.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[slashdotjunker]

... , I have not taken their courses, but browsing the course catalog I got a strong impression that if they are anything like they appear on the surface, the coursework is rich and engaging.

Take a look at the coursework before you make that judgement, especially if you are in a hiring position. I would consider this option for my MS in Comp Sci, you can't beat the price.

I would suggest that you actually take a course before you make any judgement based on it. For the past year I have been experiencing a surprising trend where people who have never taken a MOOC, publicly laud them. I find this to be very irresponsible. In order to properly evaluate MOOCs we need opinions based on experience, not optimistic guesses. Please actually take one of these courses before you tell other people how great they are.

Re:In the internet no knows you are a dog.

[Yebyen]

Hey, I was upfront about that. I only finished my BS degree in 2010 and it took me over 7 years, I'm in a lot of debt as a result and also not in a hurry to take any more courses, online or otherwise.

I would really rather have someone else take the course, and come to me with questions for help. That's why I do that, I think I enjoyed my time as a lab assistant more than I actually enjoyed taking classes in college. I was renowned for my C and C++ expertise, solving pointer problems for folks who couldn't find any help and whose teachers honestly can't debug everyone's pointer problems. Those are two languages I don't actually practice on my own, have barely practiced outside of a classroom setting, and don't foresee practicing at any time in the near future.

I still recommend that people get out and learn C. I'm rarely surprised when they have problems, and I almost always invite them to seek help from me.

I wonder whether Universities

[Chrisq]

I wonder whether Universities will eventually become administrative hubs for online courses, with on-site work mostly limited to research level students. On one hand this would be great for affordability, but on the other the brighter undergrads who would have picked up much more than the course from the research students will be limited to the syllabus

How about offer a BS first?

[TWiTfan]

Does any reputable university even offer a BS in computer science at present? For a field you would think would be at the cutting edge, I've found in the past that there are very few (reputable, not some Devry shit), if any, CS degree programs online.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[geminidomino]

Florida State University, for one.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[jlf278]

It makes more sense to offer a Masters program online than a Bachelors. Masters programs stick strictly to one discipline and are often targeted toward working professionals who would not benefit from extracurricular activities, living on campus, having access to abundant campus resources, job placement services, etc. Offering a Bachelors degree online means you have to get the whole university represented for general education classes and some of the normal gen ed requirements (e.g. speech and communications class) might be impractical to replicate online.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are offering this to selected individuals who are employees of major companies. They will start to offer other degrees as they roll out to the public.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[h4rr4r]

That is because online courses make it very easy to cheat.

A simple work around, would be that all exams are given at some proctored location. So you take a test with folks taking exams for all kinds of other degrees and you can come in any time to take it. This means you really only need one such testing center per major city.

Another factor is makes these degrees more available, which lessons their attractiveness to normal students. My university switched from quarters to semesters and retention went way up, as a grad I know this means my degree has now been devalued. If they let people google their way to a degree, or could hire out their course work online, my degree would be worth even less.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[JLavezzo]

Old Dominion Univ.
http://dl.odu.edu/programs/computer-science

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[Anonymous Coward]

Harvard is experimenting with online undergrad CS courses. Good enough for you?

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[TheSync]

UMUC BS CS. UMUC is the online/extension arm of the University of Maryland.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you should have taken some remedial English during your school years.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[Anonymous Coward]

University of West Florida, Kent State, and Western Governor's University.

The schools are fully acreddited, and UWF and Kent are State-system schools. WGU is a State-system school in some states since those state's adopted their courses for themselves.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[Anonymous Coward]

All of my online tests at my school (WGU) were proctored. They were either industry standard tests (A+, MSCE), they had third party agency that monitored you via webcam or would proctor in-person for a fee. I used the webcam since it was easier for my schedule.

Re:How about offer a BS first?

[Anonymous Coward]

Daytona State College also offers a BS program in Information Science that they inherited from UCF, it is done 100% online.

Re:so help me to understand this

[Anonymous Coward]

undermines tenured profs that show up in sweatsuits to mumble at lecturn

That's been the problem in my experience. Established professors don't like the idea of online, because:

a) They think it threatens their jobs.
b) Students sucking up to them online isn't nearly as satisfying to their egos as students having to show up and do it in person.

What about Undergrad classes?

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who wish to pursue the online MSCS, but who do not already have a BSCS, I wonder if this program will offer the requisite undergraduate CS classes.

I have a BSEE and MSECE from Georgia Tech and wouldn't mind doing something like this if I could get the undergrad part online as well. It's a long drive from here to Atlanta.

Re:What about Undergrad classes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oregon State offers an online B.S. in CompSci
http://ecampus.oregonstate.edu/online-degrees/undergraduate/computer-science/

Drexel offers an online M.S.
  http://www.drexel.com/online-degrees/engineering-degrees/ms-cs/curriculum.aspx

Re:What about Undergrad classes?

[White Flame]

I would rather they not offer requisite undergraduate classes, and simply allow anybody to enroll. If you're already good enough to be post-BS in CS, you'll keep up. If you aren't prepared or can't keep up otherwise, you fail.

Enforced prerequisites are simply a cash draw; ostensibly they should only be recommendations to guide student decisions.

Re:so help me to understand this

[Anonymous Coward]

AT&T is providing the network infrastructure because encouraging more online education encourages more people to use the internet, which creates more customers for AT&T

Re:so help me to understand this

[Anonymous Coward]

This is an incredibly short sighted view of why these institutions are interested in this.

Georgia Tech:
The CS department has consistently been at the forefront of improving the educational process. They started the Threads curricula which was praised a few years back for looking at computer science as a holistic process rather that just a technical effort. This extends that push towards providing a full educational experience to the most people possible. It is currently very difficult for a working professional to take the time to participate in an on campus degree program unless they are lucky enough to live in the same city.

Udacity:
This is a great opportunity to legitimize the online course offerings they already give. As well as giving them an opportunity to expand this offering if this pilot is successful.

AT&T:
Already spends a lot of money in tuition assistance and lost productivity for it's employees to go back to school for their masters. If they can reduce the cost and lost time, that's a win/win for them. Not to mention the publicity.

But to take cheap digs at a school for it's geographic location, as well as the other ad hominem attacks against the other participants, doesn't really show any insight into the program they are creating.

PS. I am an alumnus in CS from GA Tech.

A Bad Joke

[Anonymous Coward]

From the FAQ:

"Computer science is defined by the ability to train and test students within a rubric of discrete, quantifiable problems and solutions."

Master's degree: "A master's degree is an academic degree granted to individuals who have undergone study demonstrating a mastery or high-order overview of a specific field of study or area of professional practice. Within the area studied, graduates are posited to possess advanced knowledge of a specialized body of theoretical and applied topics; high order skills in analysis, critical evaluation or professional application; and the ability to solve complex problems and think rigorously and independently."

Train and test doesn't really sound like bestowing rigorous, independent analytical thought. I'm sure the auto-grader will account for that, though.

"Why do working professionals need this degree? Can’t they just enroll in classes?
The United States is facing a severe shortage of skilled workers in STEM files. The Georgia Tech master’s degree in computer science represents an achievement and skill set that companies like AT&T value and want more of their employees to have."

So, it's a degree mill then?

Ladies and gentlemen, I hereby present the "No Worker Left Behind" program, a program of socialism of intellect: "From each, according to ability, to each regardless of effort."

Four years of undergrad, two years of a masters, multiple research papers and you will give me the same title as the click-and-drool crowd? "Idiocracy" indeed. I know, I know, you'll say that I shouldn't have any company that can't tell the difference, but ponder this: there is no doctor, no lawyer, no engineer, no other professional that would let this happen idly, regardless of where they work.

Arms Race

[Anonymous Coward]

First they came for the undergrads, now they undermine the graduates. It's an arms race to kill us all.

but IT needs more hands on classes / more of a app

[Joe_Dragon]

but IT needs more hands on classes / more of a apprenticeship system. As CS is not IT and at some schools CS missis the mark in giving you skills to do even coding work.

US is behind in remote education, check Aus out

[Anonymous Coward]

Australian universities have been doing online degrees for many years and pioneered much of the field. Deakin Univ is fully online - I mean everything - and has an ok rep. The University of South Australia and other technology universities, as well as many of the Group of Eight ("Ivy League") universities, have extensive online offerings and these are not regarded as easy options. If anything, studying online is regarded as harder, requiring more discipline and the dealing with isolation.

at least the new PPACA law will force them to offe

[Joe_Dragon]

at least the new PPACA law will force them to offer benefits or pay the fine.

That should hurt some of the staffing firms that as abuse IT works.

what about coursework in more of a lab setting the

[Joe_Dragon]

what about coursework in more of a lab setting then or an trade school / apprenticeship setting where it's a lot harder to cheat like that.

But that is what you get with theroy based classes and filler classes like art history where whats the point to put more then the min when you spend most of time on the core classes.

So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can already go out and get a fully-online master's degree in computer science from Colorado State or the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Both are "major" universities. How is this any different?

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because, in addition to being just a "major" University, Georgia Tech is a "world-class" university with a reputation that far exceeds that of either Colorado State or UIUC.

Re:So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

UIUC comp sci rates pretty high man.

But that is why they say they can't find any one

[Joe_Dragon]

But that is why they say they can't find any one as HR passes over people with real skills and all they get is the paper people. Who only have paper skills or are good at test cramming.

The college system should become an badges system

[Joe_Dragon]

The college system should become an badges system.

Having employees to go back to school. Under the system as it is now eats up a lot of time as the college time tables as not really setup for stuff like that and tech / trades schools can be better off not being tied down / forced to fit into the older college system.

Devry is not shit if any think just being part of

[Joe_Dragon]

Devry is not shit if any think just being part of the older collgle system is holding it back now if they you can say take a class in X skill from Devy and have it mean something that shows it will be nice. But right now for it to really mean some it has to be part of a 2-4 year plan with the full load of NON core classes as well.

other professionals have real tarades schools

[Joe_Dragon]

other professionals have real trades schools that are not 2-4-6 years of pure class room. And for some stuff even 2-3 years in the class room up front is pushing it. 4 being overkill. You do not sit in the class room for 4 years learning the theory of plumbing with limited hands on / real job skills.

Re:other professionals have real tarades schools

[Anonymous Coward]

other professionals have real trades schools that are not 2-4-6 years of pure class room. And for some stuff even 2-3 years in the class room up front is pushing it. 4 being overkill. You do not sit in the class room for 4 years learning the theory of plumbing with limited hands on / real job skills.

Blue collar vs. white collar, kid. Learn the difference. CS is not blue collar.

Require exam proctoring

[fropenn]

Homework is one thing, but many online courses are moving to require proctored examinations (either in person at a testing center or using a webcam and screen monitor). So unless you can fake your photo and all of your personal info (which the online proctors use to verify your identity), you may actually have to demonstrate some kind of skill or knowledge.

Re:Devry is not shit if any think just being part

[Anonymous Coward]

Devry is not shit if any think just being part of the older collgle system is holding it back now if they you can say take a class in X skill from Devy and have it mean something that shows it will be nice.

This is just priceless.

English motherfucker, do you speak it?

DeVry and ITT are shitstains right up there with University of Phoenix.

Re:Devry is not shit if any think just being part

[Anonymous Coward]

No run on sentence man, Devry is terrible shit.

Courses for Unix System Programming

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

On a related note.
I've read about 1/3-2/4 of Stevens.
I would like to fill out my knowledge but don't want to read the book from front to back.
Can anyone suggest a set of video lectures which will do this?

Re:Courses for Unix System Programming

[Anonymous Coward]

Try a different (shorter) book, and then maybe go back to Stevens later.

There are many good ones on Unix/Linux system call programming - check the reviews on Amazon. For example I've benefited from John Shapley Gray's book on IPC which covers about 2/3 of the basic topics (in less detail than Stevens), but there are probably at least a half dozen other good ones out there.

human proctored tests

[peter303]

There are plenty of worldwide services who proctor in-person exams for NBAr, medical, SAT, etc. This would require one in-person visit per course, and a fee.

"we've done this for years" U-of-Phoenix Prof

[peter303]

I listened to a MOOC talk by an enthusiastic state-school tenured professor last year. Then a a Univeristy of Phoenix professor in the audience arose and said they had been doing these online courses for years. They have some idea of what video and chatroom techniques work and dont work and all the cheating that goes on. The Couseras of the world are re-inventing the wheel this professor claimed. Although for-profit schools are dismissed for their fnancial sleaziness, they do have a point.And wehen the venture capitalists demand their "pound of flesh" will the Courseas be any less sleazt than the existing for-profit online schools? I am hoping for "best of both worlds" result, a merger of both best experiences.

Hopefully MOOC Courses Will Improve

[RandCraw]

Recently I spent some time with Andrew Ng's Machine Learning course at Coursera. While it's well done,it's definitely not as challenging as a 400 level CS course at most good schools. To see the difference, take a look at Ng's Machine Learning @ Coursera course, then his lectures from Machine Learning @ Stanford CS229
.

By comparison, the Coursera course is child's play.

Yes, Udacity is not Coursera. Nonetheless, I think Georgia Tech has a lot of work ahead before their MOOC CS curriculum will be ready for prime time.

Re:Seriously

[Yebyen]

You tricked me. I actually clicked the link expecting to see Clown College ranked among computer science institutes.

Catch....

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw that and thought, awesome, schools are embracing online studies more and more. Then I read the fine print.

"While courses related to the OMS CS will be available free of charge on the Udacity site, only those students granted admission to Georgia Tech will receive credit"

FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Until the DOE jumps in and makes Universities offer similar programs to online students as well as campus students, the U.S will always be behind in education. We have to get away from this whole, higher education means higher tuition BS. Its time we make education affordable for the masses to better the country as a whole, not just the rich elite.

below $7,000

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get a whole lot of Dover math and computer science books for "below" $7k, whatever that is. ($6999.99?) You could get the equivalent of a Master's degree in computer science for below $200 if you got the right Dover books. Considering all the evidence I've seen says getting a Master's degree doesn't add to your earnings as a software developer, I'll skip the formal degree.

You get what you pay for

[Roger W Moore]

Why isn't this program free? And don't give me this BS that by charging money you'll get the "serious" students.

The issue with "free" is not about how serious the students are it is about how serious the accreditation of those students is. Frankly I would not give any worth to a degree based only on online tests and assignments taken remotely. There is no way to guarantee that the person taking the tests is the person that they say they are. To do this you need some physical verification i.e. the exam has to be held where someone can physically verify who is taking the exam and that they are following the exam rules. You also need someone to setup a new exam each time and grade the responses: this is not "free" someone has to be paid to do this as well as develop and maintain the software to run the course, regularly update the course materials to e.g. make examples more relevant etc. etc.

In essence the old adage "you get what you pay for" applies. Online degrees may be a lot cheaper and, with physical verification of students for exams and important tests, they may gain value but those that remain free will likely have very little value attached to their accreditation. That does not mean that you cannot still learn a lot from such free courses but it will mean that you will have no paper to prove that you know the material. So, in essence, they would be the high tech equivalent of reading a book.

Re:You get what you pay for

[Anonymous Coward]

There's always an excuse.

In essence the old adage "you get what you pay for" applies.

Complete horseshit. Pick anything or any industry and I'll point out how that's not true. The best stuff isn't the most expensive. Usually the most expensive things are to lure suckers.

That adage is for people who don't know any better and are too lazy to do their research.

And I was talking about online education not degrees. Because for one degrees just mean you know how to play the game - I know because I have a few of them - graduate degrees.

The rest of your opinions have no basis in fact.

Re:You get what you pay for

[SteveFoerster]

Are you under the mistaken impression that high-enrollment courses on campus always card students before they take an exam?

Re:You get what you pay for

[Anonymous Coward]

They do. I've TA'd at Georgia Tech. The TA's proctor the exam and can recognize their own students. If the students TA is not available to ID the student, the other TA's do card the student before accepting the exam. You don't need to card them before the exam, you card them before you accept the exam. Only a few students will need to be carded, as most will be recognized.

Re:You get what you pay for

[Roger W Moore]

Are you under the mistaken impression that high-enrollment courses on campus always card students before they take an exam?

It is not a mistaken impression. I regularly teach such courses and I (and the TAs) card each and every student in both the midterm and final exams. If other institutes don't more fool them.

Re:You get what you pay for

[SteveFoerster]

I applaud you, but surely you realize you're on the diligent end of the spectrum. Besides, that may tell you the person taking the exam is the right person, but it doesn't mean they didn't have someone else write their papers for them.

Students who want to cheat will probably find a way. We should do what we can to minimize this, and ideally, eventually they'll get caught. But throwing away a whole mode of instruction that's proven to be effective is not the right way to go about it.

Re:Seriously

[Anonymous Coward]

It's tied for 8th, you must not have looked very hard.

MOOC with a few hunderd students - HUH?

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this a MOOC when to quote - Initial enrollment will be limited to a few hundred students recruited from AT&T and Georgia Tech corporate affiliates. Sounds like they are just offering an online degree. wgu.edu and many others already do this. Udacity. yeah. go team. wohoo. whatever...

always a first time

[itchybrain]

The first human flight did not come from those who said it cannot be done.

I, for one, am happy to see a new shoot springs from the ground. I do not know what it'll grow up to become but I hope it will be something amazing.

The FAQ addresses many issues such as costs, grading, course duration and cheating. On cheating:

How will you guarantee academic honesty?
All exams are proctored using national proctoring standards. We have access to 4,500 physical proctoring facilities and are working with online proctoring institutions.

Maybe a good thing

[JimtownKelly]

if the curricula is kept up-to-date.

WGU

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad to see other schools are starting to do this,

Western Governors University (WGU) has been doing this for awhile as well.

Re:Devry is not shit if any think just being part

[NoImNotNineVolt]

1) I hope English is not your native tongue. It's my second language as well, so I can sympathize if that is in fact the case. Otherwise, you may be making GP's point for him.
2) My best friend attended DeVry. She did very well, but I can't say her education there really advanced her career. At all.
3) I worked at DeVry briefly, as a tutor / teaching assistant (I forgot the exact name of the position, but it was unlike any I had ever seen in academia). I got to see the quality of instruction firsthand, and for the most part I was very underwhelmed.
4) DeVry is a total ripoff. As someone who accumulated 200 undergraduate credits before hitting the 500 level courses, I can tell you that DeVry is a terrible, terrible deal. Truly great education can be had for a fraction of DeVry's price.

Re:Devry is not shit if any think just being part

[airdweller]

"Devry is not shit if any think just being part of the older collgle system is holding it back now if they you can say take a class in X skill from Devy and have it mean something that shows it will be nice. But right now for it to really mean some it has to be part of a 2-4 year plan with the full load of NON core classes as well."

Let me guess... a Devry graduate?

correction *NOT accredited

[Anonymous Coward]

The summary mentions this as an "accredited" program. Neither Georgia Tech nor Udacity claim any accreditation yet. It takes at least a year to earn and the standards used by online accrediting bodies are in the gutter anyway (see Univ of Phoenix, Devry).

For this program to receive REAL accreditation, from a US Dept of Education approved accrediting (CHEA), would be the greatest victory to date for proponents of distance education.