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Australian Police Move To Make 3D Printed Guns Illegal
lukehopewell1 writes "'Untraceable, undetectable, cheap and freely available.' That's how Australian police have described the 3D-printable gun known as The Liberator today as they announce that they will be seeking to make the download, construction and possession of these weapons illegal. In their tests, Police printed the 15 parts required to assemble The Liberator in 27 hours and assembled it within 60 seconds with a firing pin fashioned out of a steel nail. The two guns were test fired into a block of resin designed to simulate human muscle, and the first bullet penetrated the resin block up to 17 centimeters. NSW Police Ballistics division confirm that it would be a fatal wound if pointed at someone."
It's also used to make guns...
OK maybe the downloading part is not yet covered, but I'm pretty sure in NSW unlicensed manufacture is already an offence, as is possession obviously.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
It's a sad situation when the law enforcers decide what the laws are.
THL phish sticks
I remember the old days of people hosting bulletin boards on their Commodore 64's. If the sys op was kind ... or if you had something to share, you'd get to download the stash of dirty pictures in glorious 8 bit color. Then they passed laws against it and now you can't find porn on line anymore.
I hope you would have to actually shoot someone for it to be fatal.
3d-printing of guns: the quickest way to create legislation regulating the sale of bullets.
It's a sad situation when the law enforcers decide what the laws are.
They don't and they can't, they are only suggesting. Deciding what the laws actually are is the job of the Murdoch press.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
In Australia, where this article is about, the police *don't* decide the laws. But as enforcers of the law they are an important part of the consultation process for developing laws - they are often the ones who encounter these things first hand in their day to day work.
It's a sad situation when the law enforcers decide what the laws are.
Nothing special about the 3D printed plastic gun: unauthorized manufacturing (or even assembling) a firearm of any kind in Australia is already prohibited (so no, this is not a case in which the police would decide what the laws are. As they aren't in control of the downloads, they can't have a say in banning the download either).
What the TFS fails to mention: the NSW police guys seems genuinely more worried about someone hurting oneself in an attempt to fire one (the first gun printed by the NSW police exploded during tests) :
“My greater concern is that someone would do this, make one, and then suffer the consequences and kill themselves [after a catastrophic failure]. They don’t want to shoot someone, they’re just fascinated [by 3D printing]. If we didn’t alert someone to what happened to us, we would be considered negligent.
“Don’t try it, no matter what end of this gun you can be on, you could die. Do not download, do not manufacture The Liberator,” the Commissioner concluded.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
It sounds like the police have never heard of PA Luty. http://thehomegunsmith.com/ check out some of the designs folks. You could make a MACHINE GUN that would be fully functional from nothing more than parts you bought at a hardware store. It would cost you about 200 bucks or so in tools and parts.
But they can't in NSW, evidently .... The police will need to petition the federal government for the law
Bzzzzt. Wrong.
Subject only to s109 of the C'th Constitution, the NSW Parliament is a legislature of plenary power, meaning it can pass laws about anything and everything (in contradistinction with the Federal parliament which is a legislature of enumerated power). If the NSW parliament enacts a law saying it is illegal for people born in Botswana to walk down the Champs-Élysées wearing purple underpants, that would be a valid law of NSW (good luck enforcing it though) providing that it does not conflict with any C'th law (s109).
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
(it's still illigal to change your own light bulb in victoria).
Maybe I missed a joke, but it is illegal to change you own light socket or switch in Australia, instead of calling a licensed electrician.
But there is nothing to stop you buying the parts from the local hardware store, and I never heard of anyone being prosecuted.
Shamelessly omitted from the summary:
What’s interesting about the second device they tested, however, was the “catastrophic failure” of the weapon. Translation? It exploded. The plastic gave way to the brutal force of an exploding .38 caliber bullet and the barrel exploded.
[...]
The NSW Commissioner said that the realist in him believes that you can never stop the spread of The Liberator — and he’s right — but at least they can tell people how dangerous they are.
“My greater concern is that someone would do this, make one, and then suffer the consequences and kill themselves [after a catastrophic failure]. They don’t want to shoot someone, they’re just fascinated [by 3D printing]. If we didn’t alert someone to what happened to us, we would be considered negligent.
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
Police printed the 15 parts required to assemble The Liberator in 27 hours and assembled it within 60 seconds with a firing pin fashioned out of a steel nail.
27 hours for a .38? You could make a dozen 12 gauges in that time, and really get your rampage on. Let me know when they start regulating black pipe and twine.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/weird/the-worlds-strangest-laws/story-e6frev20-1111114208087
http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/australia
http://www.weekendnotes.com/the-3-best-illegal-things-to-do-in-melbourne/
Rocket Surgeon.
You may well be right
Well it's kinda what we were taught at Law School. And btw that should be "plenary power vs enumerated powers", sorry for the inaccuracy.
I don't know the constitution well enough
The (federal) Constitution would not tell you this anyway.
The NSW police would have to petition the State Government to get the laws changed.
Exactly. However previous poster's "sentiment" was, "they can't in NSW ... they would need to petition the federal government," which is simply wrong.
IMHO, the appropriate steps for police/governments around the world is to legislate 3D printable weapons regulations that relate to the other laws in their jurisdictions.
In NSW the manufacture and possession of firearms is already governed by the Firearms Act 1996 (NSW). Both unlicensed manufacture and possession are offences. The definition of "firearm" under section 4, to wit,
would seem wide enough to capture this weapon. The only thing new is the downloading of the "design" (actually machine instructions).
The Police are not seriously seeking substantial legislative change here (though they may get some "we are doing something about this" no-effect amendment). This is a consciousness raising exercise.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
Because cops never lie, amirite?
In the context of this very issue, what exactly would be the point of lying? Making/owning a gun in Australia without license is already illegal.
BTW, I'm pretty sure Oz already has various departments for consumer protection and safety. It's not their job.
Yeah, sure, the NSW police would better keep their mouth shut, their test and the risks they discovered are not at all relevant... after all, the police isn't meant to protect anyone, much less for protecting a consumer, they'll lie to you most of the time and they only have in mind how to bust you and spend the taxes you pay... Clearly, nothing more than a band of thugs.
The consumer protection agencies are in charge of testing everything that can cause harm, even when it's already illegal, amirite?
What planet are you living on? "Planet America" perchance?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
You left out the part where the new laws and powers are abused by police for harassment and corruption without actually achieving any of the stated effect.
Yes, like the escalating "war on drugs", which has caused our prison population to mushroom and is responsible for a large part of violent crime, illegal migration, judicial racism, and lack of treatment for addicts.
If you pass legislation that's unenforceable and broad, the consequences are disastrous for society. Observing that isn't cynicism, it's reality, and the sooner people like you return to reality, the better.
Its over. The guns are going to flow.
Doubtless they'll try something with bullets. But making your own bullets isn't that hard either.
There are a dozen over the counter chemicals that could be purchased, mixed, and cooked to create explosives similar to gun powder. And then all you're dealing with is the bullet jacket, bullet, and primer. I've seen hunters that refill their own ammunition. They pick up the spent cartridge and save them. Then when they've got nothing better to do they wash them off, replace the primer, fill the cartridge with more powder, and squeeze a new bullet into it. The jackets don't even need to be made out brass or metal for that matter. A fully paper cartridge is entirely possible.
And beyond that, the machines that can print in metal are dropping in price as we speak. Still far beyond the means of the end user but you could say the same thing of the plastic prototype printers in the 1980s. In 30 years we will probably have 3d printers printing in metal.
And that doesn't even address the assembly capability and subtractive machining capability of many machines.
If 3d printers scare you, I can buy a metal lathe that can make gun parts out of steel for not much more then a thousand dollars. The technology isn't that complicated. Put block of steel in vice... tighten vice... wait for drill to remove all unwanted material. Remove finished part. The parts have to be designed to accommodate the limitations of a 2 axis lathe but if we're just going for a functional gun... it works.
Its actually surprising we don't have more home made guns throughout the world. It is really quite simple.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Surely it would be better to make killing people illegal and not try to legislate what people can construct at home in 60 seconds after a 3D printing is completely.
If killing people is already illegal, then why do they think that if they make something illegal that can be done secretly and completely undetectable in the privacy of one's home is going to prevent any crime? Surely the criminal that is intent on using a gun illegally isn't going to shy away from downloading plans and printing them.
Geeze, Australia doesn't have this or that amendment to the constitution - Guys we ARE NOT a state of the USA. We have our own laws, and currently (legal) gun ownership is restricted. Frankly I believe that Australia is generally a safer place since the Howard government restricted legal gun ownership. Yes I know I'll be modded down and adversely commented on by those of you in the US who have the "right to bear arms", but frankly I don't give a flying fuck about your rights - I'm only interested in my rights and the safety of me and my family. So yes 3D printed guns should be banned here in oz. And I know that I'l get the storm of "yes but the crims and bikie gangs can get guns". Yes they can, and as far as I'm concerned they can go and shoot each other.
Because it's not about safety it's about intent. The Liberator is a gun that's it's intent, a nail gun is a construction tool that is it's intent. What you going to print out a Liberator for the aim of knocking in a few nails??? Or are you going to do print it out to shoot someone.
Once again you are like virtually everyone on this thread, deflecting the argument with pathetic, what /if's.
Clowns
I just did and it didn't say anything about changing bulbs.
And that's the ticket right there. Electrical work is defined in the first section of the act: [i]"electrical equipment work means repair, alteration or maintenance of electrical equipment"[/i]. The act never actually defines what alteration of electrical equipment is so the only remaining place to get that definition is the Australia Standards, specifically AS3000 which mentions that modification of electrical equipment does NOT include the intended use of an electrical socket.
In Australia where the law isn't explicit the standards are the fallback. In Queensland the electrical safety act specifically calls out compliance with AS3000:2007, which also doesn't preclude people changing their own lightbulbs.
It DOES however explicitly state that the disconnection and reconnection of an electrical device by means other than a socket is electrical work, so you can not change your light fitting unless it is connected via a plug to a socket meeting Australian standards.
The lightbulb thing is an urban legend that has hung around from back when people were discussing bringing in the electrical safety act. There was all sorts of FUD expressed at the time such as people being unable to plug a device into an outlet, and changing lightbulbs. If there is such a law on the books, it's not part of the Electrical Safety Act, and thus no longer in effect.
I still would like someone to explain to me how the cost of a 3D printer is less than a black market gun.
... Go for it.
If you've got $20k for a one shot weapon that's likely to blow your hand off...
Common Sense (+1)
You can make a firearm out of raw metal stock and have that be untraceable too, so I really don't understand that argument either.
Yes, you could put watermarks and other sort of stuff like is done sometimes with printed documents (laser printers that put serial numbers into letters they are printing or other things that identify the printer). Then again, such security measures can be overcome with software if you were determined to file off those kind of things too.
The real complaint here is a loss of political control over the lives of other people. That doesn't exactly give me warm fuzzy feelings when somebody treats me or somebody I may know as a slave master. If you put yourself into slavery I suppose that would be acceptable, but I don't willingly want to be in that sort of position. I'm not really sure how many people volunteer for such a position in life either.
In NSW the manufacture and possession of firearms is already governed by the Firearms Act 1996 (NSW)
Define "manufacture". Depending on the definition of it, obtaining plans/dies for the purpose of manufacturing *is* part of manufacturing. So maybe they are saying that they think the definitions under the law cover downloading patterns.
IANAL, downloading and printing the parts need not to constitute manufacture... after all, one may consider them art/sculptures.
Putting them together is something different. NSW firearm act, Sect 50A
(1) A person who manufactures a firearm is guilty of an offence under this subsection unless the person is authorised by a licence or permit to manufacture the firearm. Maximum penalty: imprisonment for 10 years.
(2) A person who manufactures a prohibited firearm or pistol is guilty of an offence under this subsection unless the person is authorised by a licence or permit to manufacture the prohibited firearm or pistol. Maximum penalty: imprisonment for 20 years.
...
(5) In this section:
"manufacture" a firearm includes assemble a firearm from firearm parts.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.