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A Serious Proposal To Fix Windows 8

Posted by Unknown on from the wget-ubuntu-desktop.iso-and-install dept.

GMGruman writes "Windows 8 is simply not selling, and everyone but Microsoft knows it's a mess of an OS. And the Windows 8.1 'Blue' that Microsoft revealed some details of late last week doesn't address the fundamental flaws. So a team at InfoWorld worked up a serious proposal to rework Windows 8 for both PCs and tablets that fixes those flaws and lets Microsoft's true innovations break free of today's Windows 8, complete with mockups of the proposed Windows 'Red.'"

36 of 578 comments (clear)

  1. Nice objective summary by dywolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nice objective summary

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    1. Re:Nice objective summary by auric_dude · · Score: 5, Funny

      Red pill or Blue pill? Sorry, red or blue flavour of Windos.

    2. Re:Nice objective summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nice objective summary

      Agreed. Despite the writer's obvious bias in saying "everyone but Microsoft knows it's a mess of an OS", the plain truth is that Microsoft knows it's a mess too.

    3. Re:Nice objective summary by LateArthurDent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nice objective summary

      Actually, it is.

      Windows 8 on the desktop is broken. This isn't a subjective tastes issue. It is objectively horrible.

      Unless you can explain why someone in a desktop would actually *want* to be subject to tablet limitations like full screen apps, or having to dock apps at specific locations in your screen if you want to work with more than one at a time. I can see why it would be beneficial to be able to run the tablet apps, but if you have a mouse and keyboard, by default they should be placed inside a desktop window that you can do whatever with. Instead, we're being guided by default to use tablet apps instead of desktop ones, and going to a horrible screen that shows a limited set of what you have installed instead of getting a well-organized menu.

      If you install classic shell, Windows 8 is perfectly usable, but it doesn't really add anything to what was already available with Windows 7.

    4. Re:Nice objective summary by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I find the start menu much more navigable than the start screen in Windows 8. Giant icons in metro is means less stuff up there available, so the first thing most people do is go to "all apps". Then you've got a 2 dimensional grid of smaller stuff. However that is less convenient in many ways; start menu is top to bottom, with vertical scrolling, but start screen is top to bottom and left to right with horizontal scrolling which is very disconcerting.

      Also by default start menu keeps things in sub-folders. Thus my newly installed game will have a folder all to itself, including the game, readme, and miscellaneous files. This keeps the menu list shorter, compared to the "all apps" on the start screen where everything is expanded by default so I'm scrolling (sideways) through many more elements than the start menu had.

      Also consider the awful icons you get in metro. A flat square with a smaller icon in the center of it, many of the icons which look exactly the same as others (ie, all document files are identical). So you are reading the text only here, the icons get ignored. This leaves a huge amount of space between each name in the start screen, which means you can't visually scan as easily through the squares list looking for the name you want. Start menu is compact; start screen is spread out with wasted spaced.

      When I use start menu it is for a couple reasons essentially: to find things that are seldom used or hard to find, or to find things that are used often but which can't have on-screen icons. For the former, the start screen does not speed up the searching and actually slows things down. For the latter, metro makes it difficult to find control panel or shutdown (without using undocumented shortcuts that the average user will not know).

      I don't use start menu in windows 8 because I don't have a replacement, so on occasion I do use start screen. I always find it very clumsy. I also find myself pinning more stuff to task bar than I used to, with more icons on the desktop than I used to. I hate that, I want a relatively clean desktop.

  2. No problem here by flnhst · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have now worked with Windows 8 now since last october, and it is working just fine for me. I have had no problem getting around the new interface.

    1. Re:No problem here by LordThyGod · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have now worked with Windows 8 now since last october, and it is working just fine for me. I have had no problem getting around the new interface.

      You must be the target audience then. The rest of the planet, or most of us anyway, are not.

  3. Windows Red looks horrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The suggestions involved are klunky and the idea of splitting it into 3 OSes is going the wrong way. Windows RT is a disaster because it lacks app compatibility. MS needs to retire it and fully embrace x86 now that intel has fixed it with Haswell.

    All that needs to be done to "fix" the start menu issue is make it so the task bar never goes away and the desktop background stays persistent but faded out. You click "START" and tada, the tiles appear right on top of your desktop. It is a simple solution, should be easy to present and works equally as well in mobile touchscreens as it does mice.

    1. Re: Windows Red looks horrible by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with Windows RT was naming it Windows.

      Had they just called it RT, or Surface or Metro or something other than Windows, the app compatibility wouldn't be a problem. OSX application support or, out of the box anyway, X or Gtk support didn't harm Android or iOS. The whole thing supports the same CLR as Windows so...

      I think what's really hurting them is the insular nature of Microsoft. Spreadsheets aren't cool. Using Power Point in ads is more likely to turn off a user than turn one on.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    2. Re:Windows Red looks horrible by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're got to look at it from a business perspective. Microsoft is a 'traditional' software company: They make a product and sell it. They have no model for continuing to make money from their product post-sale, so they are highly dependent upon keeping customers continually upgrading. An increasingly difficult task - Windows XP remained popular for many years after MS intended it to die. Compare to Apple or Google: They don't just make products, but make an ecosystem around it - iTunes, , the app stores, tie-ins to other services, advertising. Every iPhone and Android device is a revenue stream to Apple or Google well after the initial sale.

      Microsoft wants to copy that. It's a great business idea. Not always good for end-users though - the factor that enables the ecosystem business model is device usage restrictions. Apple couldn't make money off the iPhones if people were able to install just anything from anywhere, without the App Store taking a cut.

    3. Re:Windows Red looks horrible by Junta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The issue is that WinRT has to offer *something* that IOS and Android do not in order to gain share.

      They didn't pursue lower price, their offerings are no less expensive than Apple.

      The didn't pursue better specs. They focused on Tegra 3, which is respectable but dated. Their screen resolution is downright atrocious compared to comparably priced products. While Android and IOS both have high ppi displays, MS has been left behind on this front.

      They don't have more apps. Android and IOS had to build their ecosystems from scratch, but they had early mover advantage. After letting that situation simmer for years, they release a product with a paltry number of apps despite having a legacy of the most application compatibilty of any platform. They don't even have app compatibility between their phone and winrt as it stands (though that wouldn't have helped *much*, it still is a sign that they made a mistake compared with the strategies of Apple and Android).

      Basically, every possible advantage that MS could have brought to market, they failed to do so. Like it or not, their best hope was/is to focus on x86 solutions where their application compatibilty can really come into its own.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    4. Re:Windows Red looks horrible by UnknowingFool · · Score: 5, Informative

      Apple couldn't make money off the iPhones if people were able to install just anything from anywhere, without the App Store taking a cut.

      Apple makes as much or more revenue off iPhone hardware sales ($22B) alone than all of MS according to their quarterly financials. While Apple makes money off of apps and content ($4B before they take their cut), it not as much as what they make on iOS hardware ($30B).

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  4. if it doesn't include pushing more to metro by gl4ss · · Score: 5, Interesting

    then microsoft isn't interested.
    the whole point is to get people to use metro apps. to pay for metro apps. to get a cut of metro apps sales.
    thus the push towards the metro ecosystem. supposedly it would also fix problems with some malware and so forth, but the real dollar bills would be from getting a cut from everything that is run on the pc. that is a huge pie. unsurprisingly traditional sw makers are asking why the fuck should they bow to that and are moving to subscription models partially as a backup against ms possibly being so stubborn as to force sw to be downloaded from their market sometime in the next 5 years or so.

    they could easily do that if metro apps would have started to gain a lot of traction, too bad people don't like metro enough.

    the simple fix would be to ship it with possibility to multitask metro apps and to run them in windows as default features, but then people might start asking why bother with metro apps at all. it's not like it's impossible to make touch friendly apps - with esentially the same api's - that aren't constrained to running inside metro vm.

    (written on a windows 8, it's so nice that it comes with a pdf reader. too bad you can only run the piece of shit fullscreen and view just one pdf at time! and the fuck does some fucking single player games need my windows account and facebook for? ??).

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    1. Re:if it doesn't include pushing more to metro by RogueyWon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The shift to a Metro UI was one of the big late-cycle mistakes that MS made with the Xbox 360 as well. The second-generation 360 UI which they used through the middle years of the cycle was about as good as anybody's managed on a console. For the final few months of its life, it actually worked really well with Kinnect's voice and gesture commands (which, sadly, couldn't be said for any games).

      By contrast, the third generation Metro UI was ugly, hard to browse with a controller and almost unusable with voice/gesture controls. It seemed to have been designed with just two purposes; maximising the percentage of the screen given over to adverts and serving as an early push for the whole "Metro" concept.

      Metro's ok for a tablet. Not great, but I've seen worse. For anything else - desktop, notebook or games console - it's dreadful.

      The whole thing has the stink of the kind of dumb idea that investor relations departments think up as something that can be pushed at less-than-intelligent shareholders. "Look, we may have missed the whole smartphones and tablets thing, but we've got a really great unified UI concept now that will let us take over the world! Honest!."

      It would only take a couple of those big institutional shareholders to get a clue and start asking a few pointed questions about the consumer-focussed parts of Microsoft to make life very, very uncomfortable for the company's management.

      But I can see no signs that's about to happen.

  5. Bad OS or bad GUI? by gatkinso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If it is simply a shitty GUI on an improved kernel and stack then I will deal with it.

    What little Windows development I do is at least 50% command line anyway. My GUI apps simply are wrappers (and quite ugly thank you).

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  6. A simple question I have wanted to ask: by fredrated · · Score: 4, Insightful

    how is it 10,000 Microsoft engineers and managers couldn't pour piss out of a boot if instructions were on the heal?

  7. Is MS *trying* to commit suicide? by TWiTfan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Between Windows 8 and trying to turn the Xbox into some sort of kludgy, half-assed DRM'ed TV tuner instead of a game console, I sometimes wonder wtf is going on in Redmond. Has Steve Balmer just checked out to lunch or something?

    --
    The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
  8. Re:My solution for fixing Windows 8 by Known+Nutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You left out one option: Windows 7.

    --
    Beware of the Leopard.
  9. Re:My solution for fixing Windows 8 by serviscope_minor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and replace it with what?

    DOS 6.22 of course, with Windows 3.11 for workgroups. I suggest also installing Trumpet Winsock in order to be able dial in to what is known as "the internet. Obviously you'll need to buy a modem for that.

    the growth of OSX showed that the usual linux trope about there being no possibility for a competing desktop OS to succeed was bollocks

    You do realise that (a) MacOS is very old and already had a very well established software base, and (b) Microsoft Office which is at about the 99.9% monopoly level has supported MacOS (X and pre-X) too?

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  10. Re:Uh oh. My common sense is tingling! by Xest · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Microsoft should hire Infoword's writers as design consultants. Inforworld's staff doesn't have the luxury of being out of touch with users."

    Judging by the fact that what was really just a simple article when it comes too was presented as some kind of faux-slideshow that randomly went white in the middle with a link return to slideshow (I assume my ad blocker half-killed a popup ad) I'd say they're perfectly well out of touch with users too.

  11. Common Sense.... by houbou · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From Win 7 to Win 8, the differences are simply too huge.
    We've been using a desktop PC for about 20 yrs and basically, the core Win OS hasn't changed all that much. Start Button, Control Panel, etc..
    I believe that as long as you have PCs operating with keyboard/mouse that you should be able to have the Win 7 experience. And then again, if possible, the Windows Classic experience without all the frills and thrills.
    Well, that's my opinion anyways. It would make sense and it wouldn't be rattling user's cages so to speak.
    Microsoft wants to get into the mobile world with their OS. Great, no problem, bring it on, but, maybe, they ought to make it a separate OS. It's going to be a while before a 'one solution' fits all approach will work when it comes to computing. For once, Microsoft should look at how Apple does it. It might LOOK all the same, but it isn't.

  12. Re:No, it's not. by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's done. If you want a Start menu, pay $5 to Stardock.

    Why pay anybody anything? Classic Shell is free.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  13. Re:Or simply install Linux by Merk42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So in order to solve the issue of a completely different UI, you suggest installing Linux that has a completely different UI (and app incompatibility)?

  14. Re:My solution for fixing Windows 8 by scsirob · · Score: 4, Funny

    I suggest also installing Trumpet Winsock in order to be able dial in to what is known as "the internet"

    Don't be silly. Use the AOL CD that arrives for free on your doorstep. Every day!

    --
    To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
  15. Not great editing oversite on that article. by OvidNaso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It links you in the third paragraph to "20 things you will love about Windows 8." Number 9 is the "Charms bar." On page 3 they suggest "The Charms bar is eliminated".

  16. Re:My solution for fixing Windows 8 by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 5, Informative

    > - OSX - anybody who tells you that this is somehow a better working environment than ms windows honestly is just lying.

    Quit trolling. Do you even _use_ OSX on a daily basis?

    I've been using computers since the early 80s and have used a ton of OSes: Apple DOS 3.3, Apple ProDos, DOS 2.x - 6.x, Win3.1 .. Win8 (inclusive), Irix, BeOS. For the past 2 years I've been using OSX as part of my day job.

    My thoughts based on _experience_: As a power user OSX is pretty darn good. You can Alt-Tab into & out-of games all day long without _any_ hiccups. On Windows alt-tabbing back INTO the game almost always forces a 1 or 2 second hiccup. The way Windows manages devices & scheduler in Windows is wonky.

    + The UI is good. Clean and (mostly) well designed (although Apple appears to be making more and more bone-headed decisions lately.) The 4 hot-corners of the desktop (Expose) is fantastic. Borders are only 1 pixel thick in OSX in contrast to the fugly 8 pixel width on Win 8. OS also has the advantage that MS Office shows the menu bar ALONG with the stupid ribbon.

    + On the MBP the trackpad blows away any Windows laptop I've tried.

    + BSD under the hood which makes porting to Linux helluva a lot easier for command line apps. XCode is a decent IDE.

    - OSX Virtual Memory still stinks (I've been able to completely hard-lock OSX once about every 6 months) on 10.6 and 10.7.

    - GPUs have always sucked on the MacBook. TF2 with everything turned down and barely able to get 20+ fps on a 3 yr old 17" MBP.

    = When needed the majority run Windows in a VM (Parallels) and we have a few dedicated Windows boxes. A lot of developers (~20) also run Linus inside a VM (VMWare or VirtualBox) (no Plus nor Neg, equal = tie)

    We have an office of ~70 people who use OSX on a daily basis and would also basically agree you are completely talking out of your ass. So yes, OSX is _good_ enough for daily use.

    Besides, Linux _already_ won on the mobile space.
    http://techland.time.com/2013/04/16/ios-vs-android/

  17. Re:Or simply install Linux by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 5, Funny

    Suggesting Linux as an option to fix Windows is like proposing Esperanto to fix English.

    --
    The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
  18. Re:No, it's not. by Toonol · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Lots of people, obviously. Probably millions. Why'd you ask this question about a statement that had a clear answer?

  19. Re:Works for tablets by PPH · · Score: 5, Insightful

    but it works realy well for tablets and touch-enabled devices.

    How nice for you. But some of us need a desktop to actually get some work done. And there, it sucks.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  20. Um, what? by tgd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Windows 8 is selling extremely well.

    New PCs are what isn't selling, and that has nothing to do with Windows 8, no matter what the Slashdrones like to believe. That has to do with Moore's Law finally outpacing the needs of software, the change to near universal consumption on computers.

    Hardware vendors need to make upgrading hardware compelling. Microsoft can't do that -- they're selling plenty of upgrades, as it is.

  21. Re:My solution for fixing Windows 8 by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Paging out every single item from VRAM just because you have to draw the desktop is like dragging everything from your sitting room into the hallway because you want to put on your socks in there.

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  22. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  23. Re:Windows on the hoof by StoneyMahoney · · Score: 5, Funny

    [OT]
    An American, an Australian and a German walk into a bar. The American greets the bartender and says "I'll have a Budweiser please." The Australian says "I'll have a pint of Fosters, mate." The German considers things for a moment and says "I think I will have a mint tea, if you have any." The American and the Australian question the German's judgement, and in reply he simply shrugs and says "well, it's not like you're having a beer".

  24. Re:Works for tablets by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 4, Interesting

    but it works realy well for tablets and touch-enabled devices.

    How nice for you. But some of us need a desktop to actually get some work done. And there, it sucks.

    I don't think it was the GP's decision for MS to (unwisely) try to unify desktop and touchscreen interfaces into one OS. He just pointed out that it worked well for him on a tablet. (And that he didn't like it on a desktop.) Why put the hate on him? You got the wrong guy. He didn't ruin your desktop.

    BTW: Hey, Ubuntu team? You seem to be going in the same direction of merging tablet and desktop interfaces . . . I hope you're studying this debacle and learning from it.

    --
    I am not a crackpot.
  25. Re:My solution for fixing Windows 8 by Coolhand2120 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've recently been made to switch from a Win8 machine to a brand new OSX machine. The Win8 machine has three monitors, 256ssd, 16bg ram, i7. The OSX machine is a Macbook Pro Retina i7 256ssd, 16bg ram with two external monitors. There are some cool things about OSX but there are many stupid things about OSX. And they're not stupid like "this is different" stupid, they're stupid like "this shit is stupid". Because I'm feeling verbose I'll list the really stupid low hanging fruit. And at the end I'll list what I really enjoy about it.

    OSX

    • * I have to sign up for iTunes to keep my computer updated!?
    • * I HAVE TO GIVE ITUNES MY CC# TO KEEP MY COMPUTER UPDATED!?
    • * I have to restart my computer to keep it updated? I thought this was Unix?

    Keyboard (external mac? keyboard)

    • * Why is the keyboard all fucked up? Two keys labeled delete? Is there some aversion to calling a backspace key a backspace key?
    • * Where the fuck did insert go!? You know some people actually use insert!
    • * For that matter where is num lock and scroll lock? Again, I use those keys!
    • * Why redesign the num pad into a Apple(TM) num pad and move all the keys around?
    • * The behavior of the home and end key is stupid! They jump to the end and beginging of the document instead of the end and begining of the line! What gives them the right?!
    • * They remove essential keys like insert but I have F1-F19!? And an eject key on a system that doesn't even have an optical drive? (not that they knew that about my system, so a small pass there.)
    • * Seriously? No Alt key? WTF, I thought this was UNIX! How the fuck am I supposed to use EMACS!?

    OSX Windows

    • * WIndows present resize mouse cursors on some windows edges that cannot be resized! Inexcusable! I should be able to resize the window from any edge. And for god sakes, if I can't resize it from that edge don't show me a fucking resize cursor and make me think I'm losing my mind.
    • * What the hell is up with this full screen arrow. Useless shit. It removes all the windows from my other screens and throws up a lame gray background. Lame.

    • * Is this green control box maximize or what!? It seems like sometimes it wants to maximize height and width, and other times it will only maximize height. Be consistant. No, actually, always maximize both!

    • * I would be so happy if when I resize the top edge of the window to the top of the screen if the bottom would snap to the bottom of the screen like win7/8. I'm not saying this makes all the difference in the world, but when you make it difficult to resize (my first point on windows) this is even more important.
    • * More customization of color and style would be nice, but I'm not going to cry about too long about that.

    • OSX Finder

      • * Seriously? This is the worst piece of shit file manager I've ever seen. Apple has a lot of talented people, money and has had plenty of time to make something wonderful and they made this? As quickly as I could I replaced it, I'm using nuCommander now. Get your shit together Apple.
      • * I can't remove this POS from my dock without doing some serous surgery to the OS. Even if I do get it removed, it'll come back and stick there until I restart if I open it somehow. Grow up finder, not everyone should be forced to use you. But then, this is Apple, home of "we force you to use shit" so I shouldn't be surprised.
      • * I can't type a path in here? Fuck that! That alone makes this program trash. Really, a lot of the "finder replacements" are trash for the same reason. Are people afraid to have a path bar you can type in?

      Apple Magic Mouse

      • * RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON!!!! Oh my god! I can't click this right mouse button like 90% of the time. Oh there's a right mouse button, but when you try and click it, it produces a left mouse click. You have to remove y
  26. Re:Windows 8 IS a success!!! by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I believe you'll find OEMs are buying Windows 8 licenses and 'downgrading' their machines to Windows 7 instead. Everyone I know who's bought a PC in the last few months has bought one with Windows 7 because Windows 8 is an utter disaster.