China Criticizes US For Making Weapon Plans Steal-able, Alleges Attacks From US

Etherwalk writes "Huang Chengqing, China's top internet security official, alleged that cyberattacks on China from people in the U.S. are as serious as those from China on the U.S. 'We have mountains of data, if we wanted to accuse the U.S., but it's not helpful in solving the problem.' Huang, however, does not necessarily attribute them to the U.S. government just because they came from U.S. soil, and he thinks Washington should extend the same courtesy. 'They advocated cases that they never let us know about. Some cases can be addressed if they had talked to us, why not let us know? It is not a constructive train of thought to solve problems.' In response to the recent theft of U.S. military designs, he replied with an observation whose obviousness is worthy of Captain Hammer: 'Even following the general principle of secret-keeping, it should not have been linked to the Internet.'" A few experts think China's more cooperative attitude has come about precisely because the U.S. government has gone public with hacking allegations.

Comments

Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is what I was wearing when China stole my weapons schematics. Tell me I asked for it."

Fuck off with your victim blaming, China. Pricks.

Re:Oh FFS

[hawguy]

"This is what I was wearing when China stole my weapons schematics. Tell me I asked for it."

Fuck off with your victim blaming, China. Pricks.

Sometimes blaming the victim is warranted. If I park my Ferrari in a bad part of town with the windows open and a buck full of cash on the front seat, I don't have much room to complain when someone steals the cash (and maybe the car).

Likewise, if I have top secret military blueprints that not even an average US citizen is allowed to view, if I don't lock up the data securely, then I really shouldn't whine when someone steals it. I knew the data was valuable, I knew people would want to steal it, so I should have locked it up more securely and the data certainly shouldn't have been available through the internet. Why wasn't the data air-gapped away from the public internet?

Re:Oh FFS

[nhat11]

Still doesn't justify stealing it.

Re:Oh FFS

[skywire]

They didn't steal it; they copied it.

Re:Oh FFS

[Sique]

If they copied it, the original would still be there.

Re:Oh FFS

[hawguy]

Still doesn't justify stealing it.

Entire divisions of intelligence agencies are devoted to stealing secrets from other countries (including "friendly" countries and allies). If the data was readily available, they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they ignored it.

Or are you advocating disbanding all foreign intelligence agencies because no one should be "stealing" any data that's not been made public through official channels?

Re:Oh FFS

[naoursla]

You have lots of room to complain. If you take away the expectation to complain it give criminals an excuse to commit the crime.

If you saw a Ferrari parked somewhere with a bunch of cash in the front seat, would YOU feel okay stealing it or the car? I would hope not. Stealing is wrong regardless of how easy it is. Why do you give others a pass for something you wouldn't do?

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is justifying the theft of the cash but maybe some victim-blaming can be justified too, if the victim is a fucking moron.

However, when it comes to governmental secrets and espionage games all normal ethics are thrown out the window. The Chinese intelligence agency has to justify their expenditure of taxpayer funds somehow... And wouldn't you be outraged if you found out that our agencies haven't stolen any Chinese secrets? What is right and wrong with ordinary crime is trivial compared with the espionage game where it's justifiable for all nations to have intelligence agencies even though those agencies most likely break the laws of other nations on a regular basis.

Re:Oh FFS

[LordLimecat]

The world is complex enough that multiple people can be at fault. If the Ferrari gets broken into, you are at fault for being naieve and foolish, and the thief is at fault for being a leech on society.

Who gets the blame? Both of them. Is the thief the bigger part of the problem? Sure he is, and the largest portion of the blame goes to him. But you still are responsible insofar as your foolishness left you wide open to being victimized and creating an opportunity for a crime that any reasonable individual could have predicted.

Re:Oh FFS

[NatasRevol]

You can complain all you want.

It's still fucking stupid to park the car there.

Someone is going to steal the car. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it.

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Still doesn't justify stealing it.

He didn't say a thing about justification. Jesus h Christ man, did you not even read what the hell he said?

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on the neighborhood...

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

They obviously have far too much cash, if they leave it lying about like that. Perhaps they will learn not to keep cash in their front seat.

What if the cash was used to buy bread for my starving family? not so easy of a choice now is it.

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

For added fun replace the theft of state secrets with rape and see how many of these arguments you're still unashamed of.

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Entire divisions of intelligence agencies are devoted to stealing secrets from other countries (including "friendly" countries and allies). If the data was readily available, they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they ignored it.

Very true. However they're not supposed to get caught doing it. That's historically been considered a casus belli.

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Blaming the victim does not absolve the perpetrator. I don't understand why people think that blaming the victim in any way justifies the crime.

Guilt is not some finite quantity that must be taken away from one party in order to be applied to another.

The perpetrator is still just as guilty whether the victim was asking for it or not. But the victim is also guilty of something (negligence, for example) if the victim was asking for it. nothing is justified, both are 100% guilty, of different things.

Re:Oh FFS

[losfromla]

Furthermore, if the rich prick is in a bad part part of town, he's either slumming behind his wife's back, or snorting crack(yes I know, unusual but we already know he's a moron for leaving his windows down and cash in the car), so he deserves whatever he gets. Worse he could be a slumlord visiting his victims which means not only should you steal his car, you should beat his ass, steal his keys and empty his house.

Re:Oh FFS

[hawguy]

They obviously have far too much cash, if they leave it lying about like that. Perhaps they will learn not to keep cash in their front seat.

What if the cash was used to buy bread for my starving family? not so easy of a choice now is it.

What if the stolen secrets are to be used to protect against an unjustified attack against their country? Still not so easy of a choice.

People can come up with all sorts of justifications for stealing things - I suppose whether or not they are valid justifications depends on which side of the fence you're on.

Re:Oh FFS

[mjwalshe]

obviously America was wearing a mini skirt and stripper heels and hanging out in sleazy bars obviously asking for it :-)

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think that making an analogy with rape makes any kind of sense?

Re:Oh FFS

[clonehappy]

What the hell has happened to the Slashdot that I once knew and loved? Someone posts something which is common sense and it gets modded down to -1, Troll? Of course, we SHOULD be able to leave a pile of cash sitting around unguarded, but everyone knows you can't. Just like everyone knows if something is on the Internet, unsecured, someone is going to access it.

So, when someone accesses some private information by changing a URL or some other trivial means, it's OK to blame the victim, as everyone on here does. But someone steals from the loving, mother government, they should be hanged from the highest tree in town, correct?

Re:Oh FFS

[Intropy]

I agree, but I think that the blame associated with each individual is also qualitatively different. The owner's blame is related to his good judgment in a practical matter. He didn't think things through or didn't take obvious actions that could have drastically reduced the chances of the loss. But the thief's blame is moral. He took explicit immoral actions that directly harmed another. They both have characteristics in common and fit the word "blame," but there is a real distinction between the cases beyond just a matter of degree.

I wonder if other languages use different words for these two concepts.

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

If you saw a Ferrari parked somewhere with a bunch of cash in the front seat, would YOU feel okay stealing it or the car? I would hope not.

except in the digital case, the owner is left with their original ferrari + cash and is none the wiser

we need to come up with a better term for what occurs

Re:Oh FFS

[gr8_phk]

Still doesn't justify stealing it.

How naive. We're talking about government espionage. You know, stuff governments do. The reason you don't hear foreign countries talking about the US stealing military tech secrets is because at the moment our stuff is better than anyone elses. But we did hear about Stuxnet. China has been playing catch-up for a while now and they've made tons of progress - by innovating, buying, copying, and probably by stealing. When you're inventing you have no choice. When you're playing catch-up you have all these other options to get there faster, and with over a billion people someone is going to try each of those options.

They are correct. And should some country or group that hates the US cause major havoc because critical infrastructure is connected to the internet what is your response going to be? that's not fair? How about if you're dead and they're not? Then what's your response? You gonna cry foul?

Unfortunately international relations aren't just a game played by some rule book. It's for real in a world of limited resources, and when all else fails we actually resort to military force and fucking kill people. That's why every country has an army. In such a world espionage is a reality and your sensitive shit has no business being attached to the internet no mater how much software security you put in front of it. There is also the possibility that they got exactly what someone wanted them to get - remember that Russian pipeline explosion? Gotta be careful when you steal secrets...

Re:Oh FFS

[LateArthurDent]

If you saw a Ferrari parked somewhere with a bunch of cash in the front seat, would YOU feel okay stealing it or the car? I would hope not. Stealing is wrong regardless of how easy it is. Why do you give others a pass for something you wouldn't do?

I would not. That said, if you parked that Ferrari with the windows rolled down and the cash in the front seat, would you expect your insurance company to cover the theft?

The actions of the victim don't justify the crime, but the mere fact that they are victims don't absolve them of responsibility for their actions.

Re:Oh FFS

[hawguy]

Entire divisions of intelligence agencies are devoted to stealing secrets from other countries (including "friendly" countries and allies). If the data was readily available, they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they ignored it.

Very true. However they're not supposed to get caught doing it. That's historically been considered a casus belli.

I don't believe anyone has been "caught" - the thefts may have been traced back to Chinese IP addresses, but everyone here knows that the source IP address of an attack means nothing (despite what RIAA may tell the courts). And even if it was a Chinese citizen that executed the attack(s), in a country of a billion people, it's hard to prove that it was an officially sanctioned theft.

Re:Oh FFS

[hawguy]

Depends on the neighborhood...

The data was stolen through the internet -- the worst neighborhood imaginable.

Re:Oh FFS

[tibman]

The copied Ferrari is improved and one day they both meet in an intentional head-on collision. The copied version wins and the original Ferrari's owner is left dead on the side of the road. The owner of the copied Ferrari moves into the original's house, eats all the food, leaves dirty dishes and clothes everywhere, and then leaves when he's tired of the place. There was no one left alive who could stop him.

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Military internet neighborhoods are usually pretty safe though. They're safe from any petty and half-way intelligent criminal just because of fear, like punching a policeman. Only professional burglars are going to try anything, and that's what burglar alarms are for.

Re:Oh FFS

[flayzernax]

No she was in a drug induced coma bent over a park bench where prostitutes work with cum dripping out of her well used vagina. And some homeless guy walked by and just plugged her. Were not sure who that homeless guy was but he had a shirt with the Chinese flag on.

Re:Oh FFS

[flayzernax]

By the way the coma was self induced.

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

the US, she was asking for it

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes analogies are just stupid. Comparing theft of state secrets to a woman being raped is one of them. State secrets should be closely guarded and not let out, you are implying a woman should be treated in the same manner.

Re:Oh FFS

[s.petry]

I have seen a similar trend lately, where comments questioning or blaming our Government are modded troll or flamebait. Dice has been infiltrated so /. is no longer safe? Either that, or shitty people have been getting mod points at which Dice should remove them from the receipt list.

Re:Oh FFS

[quenda]

In this case, the guy with the Ferrari has been stealing money from the druggies.

China's top Internet security official says he has "mountains of data" pointing to extensive U.S. hacking aimed at China

and their source is reliable - they got the evidence directly from the NSA computers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spy_vs._Spy

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

It's one thing to blame the victim. They are not blaming the victim. They are saying that it is irresponsible for the US to put "secret military plans" in a place that can be accessed by their "potential threats". Are you implying that's not true?

That statement in of itself is not saying "It's OK that they were stolen". it's simply stating that it's extremely irresponsible for the US government to be callous with what they consider secret designs for anything related to national defines and that is absolutely true.

The bottom line in a situation like this is: if you put yourself in a situation where something very probable will happen, don't CRY when it eventually does. I realize my name says "in China", but I'm actually not Chinese, just FYI - and working here for a US development company...so don't be thinkin' I'm coming from some nationalistic Chinese side of things.

Re:Oh FFS

[arkane1234]

theft is still theft.

Re:Oh FFS

[NFN_NLN]

Furthermore, if the rich prick is in a bad part part of town, he's either slumming behind his wife's back, or snorting crack...

Even people, literally ON DRUGS, don't snort crack. You smoke crack and you snort cocaine.

Unless you were referring to the slumee's crack as a new type of sexual fetish... in which case carry-on.

Re:Oh FFS

[losfromla]

A friend's uncle (way back in the day) actually did snort crack, just once. You just haven't had exposure to a varied enough segment of the population, apparently. Also, you must have missed my parenthetical statement that started with "yes I know, unusual..."

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck off with your hypocritical "when america dose it, it's to defeat the evil terroists, but any one that does it to america are evil baby eaters."

Re:Oh FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

But america has been cought with it's hand in so many ferraris with cash in the front seat i have lost count. Would you feel bad stealing from the biggest burglar in the world?

Re:Oh FFS

[DMJC]

Actually I'm paying you to build my weapons and defend me with them. I'm also paying you to keep those weapons locked up away from my enemies. When my enemies steal my weapons you get fired. That's the better analogy. Only we can't easily fire the government ven when they're being grossly incompetent which is what's happening. The government should be doing their job better.

Re:Oh FFS

[DMJC]

Actually China is completely justified in stealing it. The Chinese government is being paid to acquire weapons and technologies by the Chinese people in the form of taxes to best serve the Chinese people's interests. if that means stealing technologies from the USA gives the Chinese a leg up, then damn right they are going to steal them.

Re:Oh FFS

[khallow]

I have seen a similar trend lately, where comments questioning or blaming our Government are modded troll or flamebait.

Let me guess. "Our government" is the US, right?

I'm surprised it's taken so long. There have been many articles about China or other relatively unpopular governments over the years and it seems to me that almost every one of those stories has in the comments an anti-US bash in it, often coupled with the claim that somehow the US is equivalent in behavior.

So you think this downmodding is a result of some insidious groupthink. I think rather that it's that enough moderators have gotten sick and tired of the pollution.

Re:Oh FFS

[khallow]

And anyone willing to get in a shooting war with China over espionage can manufacture whatever pretext they need.

Re:Oh FFS

[NatasRevol]

Then why was this on the public internet?

Re:Oh FFS

[s.petry]

By your reasoning then, there should be no issues when a Russian or Chines person gets censored by their government. There should be no issues with governments pulling phone records to silence dissent, or Twitter records, or anything else that would allow them to silence dissent.

The truth however, is that you most likely do have issue with those things. You probably hold a double standard for your government because of either ignorance, or more likely being delusional. This is where I will plug Plato's Allegory of the Cave, knowing full well that you won't read it.

The fact is that Governments do not improve without criticism for what they are doing wrong, and dialogue on how to make correction to better society. You can deny that the Government is trying to silence not only citizens, but any journalist that seeks to publish the truth. In doing so, you deny facts that are fully available for you to review. Denying facts to maintain a belief is delusion, and does not benefit society in any way.

You may be happy in your delusion, but nothing improves while members of society live in something other than reality.

As a side note, there is such a thing as trolling or flaiming when it comes to political discussion. If the person had called a politician a name in ad-hominem, I would agree that it's trolling or flaming. The person did not present an ad hominem attack, they pointed out a different opinion on results of US Political policies. Your reaction exactly matches a statement in "The Allegory of the Cave" by the way.

Re:Oh FFS

[AK Marc]

If my bank told me that all my money was stolen because they didn't lock the doors anymore because "people shouldn't steal", I'd still be angry with the bank, and not particularly with the robber, because if it wasn't them, it would have been someone else.

Re:Oh FFS

[khallow]

By your reasoning

"By your reasoning", invisible pink unicorns thrive on green moon cheese. Arguments are so much more interesting when you don't even remotely consider the other person's side of the argument.

For your information, that is not my reasoning. The rest of your post is a complete waste of your time.

Re:Oh FFS

[s.petry]

Awe, someone has a head hurt due to reality. Please stay in the cave you happy little slave.

Re:Oh FFS

[khallow]

Your words would sting, if you knew how to argue. When you start a discussion by making up stuff about what other people say and believe, you immediately become irrelevant

Re:Oh FFS

[khallow]

This is where I will plug Plato's Allegory of the Cave, knowing full well that you won't read it.

I already have. Here, the idea is that everyone is in a cave looking at shadows on the wall. Someone realizes, "hey, we're looking at shadows on a cave wall." I guess he then goes strolling out of the cave into the sunlight. It's supposed to be an allegory for how knowledge can enlighten us.

But I see this story, as you use it now, as a fantasy to enforce your delusions. It also places more weight on the power of knowledge than it deserves. For the implementation of such knowledge is as important as the knowledge itself. For example, what would be the point of realizing you are in this allegorical cave, if say, you couldn't do anything about it? Watching shadows on the wall becomes the only game in town whether you're aware of it or not.

Your reaction exactly matches a statement in "The Allegory of the Cave" by the way.

You do realize that Plato was something of a dick, don't you? Of course, it's very similar because it's a response to the same sort of rhetorical games that are being played here. People get tired of these obsessed rants.

Here, I, being trapped in the "Cave", can't determine if you have some special perception or knowledge. But I can see that you can't argue your way out of a paper bag unless you get to pick the paper bag ahead of time (here, your rant about my "delusions" and imaginary double standards rather than a discussion of the actual post I made). That indicates to me that you probably don't have any special grasp of reality or knowledge to share with me.

Re:Oh FFS

[s.petry]

The thread is very easy to follow, you know. At no point was there an argument or debate. I stated that you were wrong and gave some rough facts and opinion to show how. Of course I also stated that you seemed to be rather delusional. Your claims of argument are good indicators that I am correct about you having delusions.

An argument would require you to say something other than an ad hominem or denials. You provided no fact or opinion to counter any of my statements.

I'd say "get well soon" or some such, but that would require that you actually want to leave the cave. As mentioned, I doubt you would read or attempt to understand the Allegory. I'll waste no more time on a trolling delusional person.

China is America

[Anonymous Coward]

And America is China

However, the bankers and elite European families who rule both of these countries love to stir the shit to propagate war/conflict for profit.

You are a slave to these bankers who create these conflicts. Keep playing their propaganda game and getting fucked in your butthole like good sheeple :)

Re:China is America

[spacepimp]

You need to lay off the Alex Jones show for a bit. Or is your next anonymous post going to tell us how these elite families are actually Satanic lizard demons? Are you going to say that all hacking has been done by bankers and "Elite European" families to make it seem like a plausible scenario so they could later ignite a profitable cold war between the two nations?

Re:China is America

[CAOgdin]

Appropriate you list yourself as a "Coward." Unsubstantiated opinions that fly in the face of logic are cowardly.

Re:China is America

[Anonymous Coward]

Satanic Lizard Demons like Joel Osteen, or some other kind?

relevant captcha #78: smeared

Re:China is America

[michael_rendier]

I spend most of my time NOT being in debt up to my eyeballs. No credit cards, no loans, no student debt, no insurance, no drivers license, no mortgage... I can tell you as a casual observer of the world media, and a former soldier, that war is profitable...and if it's not, cleaning up the mess is. Ask Halliburton, and look into their purchase of Boots and Coots bout a week or so before the Big Oozy (gulf oil spill). Ask the schools that they are building in Iraq that fall over in a nominal wind storm. Ask Ray Nagin bout how he helped to spend the Katrina Relief funds on things like a house in Dallas. Most of this world is pissy right now about the inordinate amount of debt in the world, and how everyone is now paying the price for bad business at the top. 40% of the debt in the US is student loans. Who owns you...that is, how much money do you owe to banks, and what can they take from you if you don't toe the line?

Re:China is America

[Maxo-Texas]

And by the same virtue the Democratic Party is the Republican Party and the Republican Party is the Democratic Party in America.

Both serve the corporations.

If it's any help- I think it's too late to do anything about it.

Re:China is America

[Anonymous Coward]

Satanic lizard demons

And by Satanic lizard demons you mean "the Joooooos".

Re:China is America

[AK Marc]

No car, no license, complaining about mortgages. Do you rent, or did you have a mortgage previously? Do you even have a job, or do you live off of handouts (government disability or such)?

Some of us manage to pay down our house at a reasonable rate, and not owe any more than necessary for the life we want to live. No, I've never had a car payment, but that doesn't mean I have no car, or no license. And yes, I have insurance, to make sure my stuff is replaced if something bad happens. I can't be bothered to carry all my belongings with me at all times in a shopping cart.

um?

[etash]

Why are such important files internet accessible ? I mean that's security 101 for top secret stuff

Re:um?

[SJHillman]

At least we're not Britain. I mean, seriously, what kind of permissions is 007 for a spy?

Re:um?

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as the low-order bit is set, he has execute permission.

What's the problem?

Re:um?

[camperdave]

At least we're not Britain. I mean, seriously, what kind of permissions is 007 for a spy?

Plausible deniability?

Re:um?

[blane.bramble]

Sounds like perfect ones to me - read, write and execute everyone except himself and his group.

Re:um?

[Nerdfest]

Well, he does have execute permission for *everyone*.

Re:um?

[Z00L00K]

The world is not enough.

Re:um?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am root. I don't care about your puny permission bits. bwha haha haha.

Re:um?

[chuckinator]

That's a umask, not a permission.

Re:um?

[Etherwalk]

At least we're not Britain. I mean, seriously, what kind of permissions is 007 for a spy?

Plausible deniability?

Plausible!!

>cat .bash_history

chmod 007 F22-plans-really-secret

Re:um?

[Intropy]

Or is it everyone has permissions to execute him?

Re:um?

[Anonymous Coward]

        Re:um? (Score:?)
        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 05, 2013 @04:45PM

        You should be careful. They have been known to BASH people for #commenting like that.

Re:um?

[Anonymous Coward]

so they can blame someone..

Blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever, its not like its going to start WW3... moving on.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Shortguy881]

But it does put us in the midst of a second cold war

Re:Blah blah blah

[hawguy]

Whatever, its not like its going to start WW3... moving on.

If the Chinese use the data appropriately, it can stop WW3 from ever starting by giving them the chance to disable our defenses through software without firing a single shot. They just need to get a Chinese Jeff Goldblum to upload a virus to our mother ship with his Chinese made Macbook.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sir, the enemy can disable our defenses with out ever firing a shot."
"Let's just wait them out, private, I'm sure their intentions are nothing but the best."

Re:Blah blah blah

[SuricouRaven]

I do hope that means a second space race. If China seriously looked like they were about to set the first man on Mars, or establish a long-term moon base, I think America would have to devote billions of dollars to doing it first just to defend their national ego. Again.

Re:Blah blah blah

[interval1066]

But it does put us in the midst of a second cold war

Not even. China can get all butt-hurt if they want, but they'll NEVER put themselves in a position where they can't trade with the US, that would be suicide. China is acting all butt-hurt when we all know they have far more to gain by spying on us than we have to gain by spying on them, economically. We gain by spying on their military strategy, foriegn policy, and disposition of forces.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

I think America would have to devote billions of dollars to doing it first

Nah, we'd just pay China to build everything for us like we do for everything else.

Re:Blah blah blah

[flayzernax]

Perhaps not. If Chinese officials and U.S. Officials all pay lip service to the same corporations, people, dynasties, or whatever...

Re:Blah blah blah

[NeverVotedBush]

You would really agree to fly to Mars for 6-7 months in the cold vacuum of space in a spaceship with a big "Made in China" sticker on it?

Re:Blah blah blah

[ebno-10db]

they'll NEVER put themselves in a position where they can't trade with the US, that would be suicide

Before 1914 the economic importance of "free trade" was used to explain why WWI would never happen.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

You're more likely to get a space race if China tries to bring asteroids into earth orbit to mine. A large chunk of the space race/man on the moon was the fact that it was a clear demonstration/development of icbm tech. Being able to land a man on mars is an impressive technical feat but not as militarily impressive as saying "oh look we control giant rocks that we can drop on you at any time".

Re:Blah blah blah

[AK Marc]

We never ended the first. We have always been at war with eastasia. When the USSR fell and abandoned communism, we adopted a new communism to hate, one that was always on the list, just a little lower on the list.

Re:Blah blah blah

[AK Marc]

Yes, the highest quality stuff comes from China. The problem is that the US manufacturers outsourced to China and asked for lowest build quality possible, then complained when they got what they asked for.

Can't fault China on this one

[Xest]

Whilst I'm not saying China doesn't do any state sponsored hacking I've pointed out before that China has the largest online population of any nation and has about 1/6th of the world's population. Statistically if you get non-state sponsored hackers in every nation it makes sense that you're going to see more from China than anywhere else.

It's quite possible that it's nothing to do with the US "going public" and everything to do with the fact that a large number of hack attacks from China against the US is pretty much a statistical certainty regardless of state actors being behind it or not.

I think all governments do state sponsored hacking, I certainly think China does, to what extent is unclear but I do think at least the claims against China are probably overhyped.

Which may not inherently be a bad thing anyway though I guess if it gets Western firms to take security a bit more seriously so maybe there's a silver lining regardless.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[c]

Statistically if you get non-state sponsored hackers in every nation it makes sense that you're going to see more from China than anywhere else.

Yeah, but China has a firewall. Surely you're not suggesting that non-state sponsored Chinese hackers have figured out how to get around the national firewall?

Heh... actually, that wouldn't be a bad official response. Puts the Chinese in the position of either accepting responsibility for hacking, or admitting that their state firewall is actually pretty porous.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[ranton]

Heh... actually, that wouldn't be a bad official response. Puts the Chinese in the position of either accepting responsibility for hacking, or admitting that their state firewall is actually pretty porous.

I doubt they care very much that there firewall can be compromised by people skilled enough to hack into government and corporate computers. The main point of the firewall is to assert control over the general population.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

China is like any one party state, the biggest thug will always be the party/government. Everything needs to be done with the approval of the party/government. China's ban on the search of "big yellow ducky" is a good example of how much power it exercises over its people, especially in cyberspace. There is no non-state sponsored hackers in China.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know what the "state firewall" is for?

By your logic, even if it was a firewall its facing the wrong way (preventing OUTBOUND hack attempts).

Its more a content filter, not really a "firewall".

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[fredprado]

As there is no Chinese mafia, no crime, and nothing outside of the government's control. Please... We are talking about a country whose population is 1.3 billion people. Total control is impossible no matter how bully you are.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Heh... actually, that wouldn't be a bad official response. Puts the Chinese in the position of either accepting responsibility for hacking, or admitting that their state firewall is actually pretty porous.

Not really. They can do any of the following, including perhaps more than one of these.
1) The Beavis and Butthead defense - "Those were some other kids, sir" meaning non-Chinese people leaving a trail pointing back to China to deflect blame to there.
2) The Bart Simpson defense (denial) - "I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything."
3) "Evil Chinese hackers did do it and yes, they got around our precious firewall. But we won't admit it to our own citizens. That's for external knowledge only."
4) "The Chinese military did it, but unfortunately they operate without our oversight." I guarantee you that no government person in the US or China wants that to be true. The Chinese military is a bit of a loose canon and the fear on the US side is that the civilian government in China may be not be as much in control of them as they would like. The Chinese government probably fears that they don't control them as much as they are supposed to either. The problem is that according to the Chinese constitution, the PLA (People's Liberation Army) swears allegiance not to China or the government but to the Chinese Communist Party. That's a really important distinction. The government is a subset of the CCP so in theory it could be possible that the government's interests could run counter to the CCP's interests if the CCP was under the control of some non-government whack job.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[AmiMoJo]

It's not that kind of firewall. It isn't design to keep stuff out or in, only to block people inside China from accessing certain foreign sites. There isn't one big server handling it all, they just require ISPs and search engines to implement the blocks for them.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[dunkindave]

China has implemented the Great Firewall of China, both to monitor and control their citizens, as well as to limit the ingress points into China (three major ones if my memory is right) so they can more easily monitor and cut the lines if attacked. Compare that to the United States which has so many major lines running into/out of the country that it would be nearly impossible to block an attack from outside (not that inside versus outside is truly a big difference). Since these attacks are coming from behind the firewall, and little or nothing is being done to stop them, it is easy to conclude that the government is choosing to allow them to happen. Compare this to the news stories of Chinese citizens being arrested, tried and executed for hacking internal Chinese companies.

Now consider the philosophy difference between the Chinese and Americans, where the Chinese people are raised to believe they have a duty to perform actions to help their country. The government doesn't have to tell people to hack into systems in other countries to collect useful information (which they also do), they just have to make it known that the information is desirable, then not block the attempts by the "non-government" hackers (see my first paragraph). If a citizen later has come into possession of valuable information which they choose to share with the government, then they are just being a good citizen. We call it hacking, China calls it patriotism.

So why does China now respond? Because they are walking a tightrope. They are seeing how far they can push things before it has an unacceptable consequence. That is also why I think we chose to speak up this time, because to always remain silent just lets China continue doing their antics with no real consequences. So why this time and not others? Because if you keep telling the attacker what you saw, and by implication what you didn't, you give him valuable information that can make him more effective and more stealthy.

It may not be the classic form or war, but it follows a lot of the same rules. And because of the difference of philosophies, it is a somewhat asymmetric war.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know what the "state firewall" is for?

By your logic, even if it was a firewall its facing the wrong way (preventing OUTBOUND hack attempts).

Its more a content filter, not really a "firewall".

If it has to stop outbound requests to "protect" the Chinese people from undesirable or subversive websites not originating in China, then yes, it's facing both ways.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[sydneyfong]

Surely you're not suggesting that non-state sponsored Chinese hackers have figured out how to get around the national firewall?

Getting around the GFW is a national pastime.

So, yes.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

Would the Chinese government be likely to cooperate with the US government about pressing charges against China-based hackers? If not, and the hackers feel like they are in some sort of safe haven, that could contribute to higher numbers as well.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese are that "patriotic"?

I thought they were more concerned with making money and trying to stay off the governments radar.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

...often getting around the great firewall is a matter of inserting the 10 RMB CD you brought over the counter from a street level computer shop.

it will be slow but you won't want to download torrents or watch much youtube.

sites that might contain useful information (technical info especially) are very unlikely to be blocked in the first place - unless an home grown alternative exists.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[c]

Ah, yeah, that was sarcasm. Everyone knows the GFW is crap in practice. But that fact that the government persists in using it implies that they might be a bit sensitive about being mocked by foreign governments about it...

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[steelfood]

Not to mention that "their" firewall is actually a set of regional firewalls with differing rules. And even the firewall with the strictest rules leak like a sieve.

The purpose of the firewall (and associated software) is twofold: 1) to prevent casual encounters with subversive information and 2) to provide sufficient evidence on persons of interest for a conviction.

The second purpose is actually largely the same as the monitoring situation in the U.S. The government isn't out to get you specifically, but if it is, then it has a ton of evidence it can use to send you to jail.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a firewall to keep things out, not to prevent things leaving. Hacking is a "leaving" thing.

What the US is really complaining about is that China is not adopting police state policies as quickly as the US is. China has some but not nearly as quickly or technologically advanced as the US is.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[CHIT2ME]

The silver lining in this could just be the old Trojan Horse. With all the Chinese hacking in the last decade, I refuse to believe that high tech companies just put their highly secret plans for planes, missiles, etc. out there to be easily plucked from the internet. It would be a good idea, though, to put plans with subtle well hidden flaws in them which would be disastrous to the Chinese if they just built a plane etc. straight from the stolen plans. We did this with the Soviet Union back in the cold war. What makes you believe we are not doing it now and using the hacks to track where they are coming from in China?

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[AK Marc]

The firewall is an inbound HTTP filter, nothing more. It isn't designed to stop outbound traffic. Why can something get to +5 insightful when it is factually incorrect and useless?

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[c]

The firewall is an inbound HTTP filter, nothing more. It isn't designed to stop outbound traffic.

I know. And it's not even a very good HTTP filter. That's not relevant.

In the context of international relations, how (or even if) it works is irrelevant. In this context, we start from the assumption that it accomplishes the goals that the Chinese government publicly says it does, which is to control the Chinese portion of the Internet for the purposes of computer security, preventing dissemination of "illegal" information, etc.

This makes the significance of the Chinese government blaming attacks on uncontrolled criminal elements operating from the Chinese network space a bit more interesting. Rather than the flat-out denial that one would normally expect from the sort of regime that gets pissy about appearances, it's an official admission that the Great Firewall pretty much can't stop those in China that really want to get around it.

Re:Can't fault China on this one

[AK Marc]

China has never claimed it was for security of systems. It's not even officially for tracking, though everyone unofficially assumes it does. It's officially for information filtering, with no "control" exerted over the unfiltered Internet. If we assume the firewall is perfect at doing its stated goal, it wouldn't stop or even log the attacks, in or out.

There's no money in peaceful solutions

[Anonymous Coward]

...that's why the US administration won't talk - they're the biggest money generator for the Military Industrial Complex.

Still waiting for the pin to drop in the US, all the while TV produces shows about terrorist threats, anyone that questions the government line being a conspiracy theorist (and therefore insane) and revolution being bad.

Re:There's no money in peaceful solutions

[Anonymous Coward]

Got a tinfoil hatter here! Thinks 9/11 was an inside job.

Re:There's no money in peaceful solutions

[Anonymous Coward]

me too! me too!

Another Cold War Almost As Bad

[ranton]

It isn't likely that this would start a full out war, but it has the possibility of starting another cold war between the US and China. Not nearly as many lives are lost, except perhaps people dying in hospitals because the governments are spending more money on defense than on medicare.

Even if all this rhetoric does is give both countries a reason to waste trillions on excessive defense spending, that is already pretty bad.

Re:Another Cold War Almost As Bad

[dbIII]

That's the wet dream of the people that made a fortune on things that never had to work in the last cold war, but they don't have the same lobbying pull as those that are making shitloads of money trading with China. I can't see it happening even if China starts getting agressive.

Well someone has to be demonized.

[Anonymous Coward]

We've got a lot of more tech to buy and dollars to spend and need an enemy to justify it. The middle east isn't a viable technological terrorist...China is.

So they are the new corner stone of the next Axis of Evil. I'm not saying China isn't trying to pentest our stuff. I'm sure they are, and we are reciprocating. I just know we are going to exagerate to subsidize the raytheon's and bae systems et al.

Re:Well someone has to be demonized.

[prefec2]

Yes, and they are not that menial that they can be overrun with the army, like Iraq. They are even better than the Russians, as they do not collapse after some decades. Instead they grow and they are big and they are investing in new weapons. All this allows to increase the military funds again. Who cares for health care or any other shit as long as we have BIG guns. Great!

Economic collapse.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Whatever, its not like its going to start WW3... moving on.

If relations sour enough that China stops rolling over and buying more US T-bills and starts selling off its holdings, the collapse of the Dollar will drastically exacerbate the US economic collapse. This could easily lead to a WW III situation.

Re:Economic collapse.

[elsuperjefe]

I don't think China's holdings have that kind of power. If they sell prices would fall, rates would rise. I suspect these events might entice additional demand from other investors causing prices to rise and rates to drop. Also, the U.S. economy is currently growing, not collapsing so there is currently nothing to exacerbate. I would hold off on the bomb shelter for now.

Re:Economic collapse.

[hawguy]

I don't think China's holdings have that kind of power. If they sell prices would fall, rates would rise. I suspect these events might entice additional demand from other investors causing prices to rise and rates to drop. Also, the U.S. economy is currently growing, not collapsing so there is currently nothing to exacerbate. I would hold off on the bomb shelter for now.

China "owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds" -- so even if investors wanted to snap up China's holdings as they sell, they'd have to sell other holdings so it would still have a large effect on the world economy.

Re:Economic collapse.

[ebno-10db]

If relations sour enough that China stops rolling over and buying more US T-bills and starts selling off its holdings

You really think China is going to do us that favor? A declining dollar (China doesn't have enough Treasuries to crash it) would make our exports more competitive and improve our economy, while making their exports less competitive and destroy their economy. Why do you think China bought those Treasuries in the first place?

Re:Economic collapse.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is also the perception on the market (why is there such a large seller) and what would motivate someone to buy all this up once they start selling?

Re:Economic collapse.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

What makes you think a declining dollar is GOOD for us (except maybe for the government)?

  - It sucks the value out of anything you own that is denominated in dollars. That includes your savings, bonds, and contracted payments (insurance, pensions, wages/salaries).
  - It also sucks the value out of your investments that AREN'T denominated in dollars: When you finally liquidate them, the government includes the inflation component of the sale price as increased profit or decreased loss, and taxes it.

Especially, inflation affects your wages or salary, which won't be inflated to compensate (and you'll fight just as hard for every cent of compensation you DO get as you would for a raise.) It's the lower payments to workers that CAUSE the "increased competitiveness" of the country's products.

Sure the country's businesses sell more - for less actual value. They could have done that by lowering the price, instead, if the maximum profit for them and their workers was at the lower price. They don't need central planners second-guessing them, tilting the whole playing field, and using it as an excuse to rip off more value from the private sector - which means YOU - for the government's coffers.

I don't get this.

[wcrowe]

I always thought it was a rule from Espionage 101 that you don't let the other side know when your side has been compromised. You use it as an opportunity to start sending out false information, and to learn their tactics and precisely who is involved. I don't understand why we are telling everyone in the world that the Chinese have stolen our information. It just makes us look inept in all sorts of ways.

Re:I don't get this.

[SuricouRaven]

To harm China diplomatically and economically. If they get a reputation for underhanded spy games then businesses will be more reluctant to do business there for fear of having their designs shamelessly copied and research stolen, and nations will be less willing to allow free trade if it is known that China seeks to favor domestic industry by impeding the operations of overseas competition.

Re:I don't get this.

[Maxo-Texas]

The problem with this position is that they have HAD a bad reputation for stealing IP for over 20 years now. And it hasn't changed anything.

People still do business with them. People still ship designs and formulas to them to produce.

What will reduce IP Theft is higher chinese labor costs which make local manufacturing a better solution than offshoring. And we've probably got another 8 years before chinese wages + fuel transportation costs == local labor costs.

Re:I don't get this.

[erice]

I always thought it was a rule from Espionage 101 that you don't let the other side know when your side has been compromised. You use it as an opportunity to start sending out false information, and to learn their tactics and precisely who is involved.>/p>

I think this has already happened. They traced the attacks to a specific building in Shanghai operated by the Chinese military and learned a great deal about the operations taking place there.

I don't understand why we are telling everyone in the world that the Chinese have stolen our information. It just makes us look inept in all sorts of ways.

Probably because all the useful counter-espionage plays have been done. Now the biggest payoff is from using the information for political leverage.

Re:I don't get this.

[AmiMoJo]

It's to gain political currency. Make China out to be the bad guy, try to rally international sympathy for the US. Part of an ongoing narrative.

The US loves bad guys. They justify spending and fear. The USSR fell apart, Iraq has been dealt with, Bin Laden is dead and his organization seems to be ineffectual these days. China is the new bad.

Re:I don't get this.

[rahvin112]

The problem with this position is that they have HAD a bad reputation for stealing IP for over 20 years now. And it hasn't changed anything.

Hasn't changed anything? Are you insane. One small example is Russia won't sell the Chinese ANY advanced weapons. After the Chinese copied some older model Soviet weapons the Russians refused to sell them ANY advanced weapon systems. This little detail has crippled Chinese weapon advancement for more than a decade, and only recently after realizing they can't create the same 50 years of Russian innovation on their own they are only now at the point of a new arms deal with the Russians with guarantees that the designs will not be copied. Even with firm contractual guarantees the Russians are still not sure they want to execute the contract because they don't trust them. I'd wager the contract is about 50/50 that it will ever happen.

Wholesale theft of IP has harmed China in almost as many ways as it has helped them and they have started to realize the damage they've done.

Re:I don't get this.

[DMUTPeregrine]

They already got the plans for the F-35. That's a terrible plane that it a horrifically expensive money sink and under performs on almost every aspect.If we give them the F-22 plans too we can watch their pilots die from hypoxia!

Re:I don't get this.

[dj245]

The problem with this position is that they have HAD a bad reputation for stealing IP for over 20 years now. And it hasn't changed anything.

Hasn't changed anything? Are you insane. One small example is Russia won't sell the Chinese ANY advanced weapons. After the Chinese copied some older model Soviet weapons the Russians refused to sell them ANY advanced weapon systems. This little detail has crippled Chinese weapon advancement for more than a decade, and only recently after realizing they can't create the same 50 years of Russian innovation on their own they are only now at the point of a new arms deal with the Russians with guarantees that the designs will not be copied. Even with firm contractual guarantees the Russians are still not sure they want to execute the contract because they don't trust them. I'd wager the contract is about 50/50 that it will ever happen.

Wholesale theft of IP has harmed China in almost as many ways as it has helped them and they have started to realize the damage they've done.

And yet companies keep coming back. Even Toshiba is giving IP to China for their latest design nuclear reactor. Toshiba, a company which obtained much of their steam turbine knowledge from licensing deals from GE in the 1970's and has come to have near-domination of new large steam turbines in the US. Toshiba took GE's steam turbine knowledge and used their weak currency to move in on the market. GE was seriously weakened in the steam turbine market from the IP deals, and has nearly given up trying to sell new steam turbines. Toshiba knows this history well, and yet they repeat it. The allure of a market of a billion people is too strong. Executives will always hop on these licensing deals for quick cash. By the time it all crashes down the executive has moved on or moved up.

Even if a company learns their lesson, there will always be another company to step into their place for a quick buck. Even if they are selling China the rope which will be used to hang them.

The only blowback from China's policies I see is that their quality is known to be suspect. I see plenty of specs which specifically require that NO parts come from China. Full stop. Chinese supply used to be acceptable if the factory was certified, inspected, etc., but corruption is so rampant that these papers are known to mean nothing now. By the time you do your diligence and make sure that the factory is OK, you might as well have bought from a more reliable country. And you still can't be 100% sure that the chinese part is OK since they might completely change as soon as you are satisfied with your samples and the inspector is out the door.

Re:I don't get this.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's fine, Israel still sells them US weapon systems.

Re:I don't get this.

[ebno-10db]

I see plenty of specs which specifically require that NO parts come from China.

Specs for what kind of stuff? I'm curious.

Re:I don't get this.

[Anonymous Coward]

So the new generation of diplomats in U.S. is playing the social card. No wonder, they must have released these statements through Facebook too, uh? Hope the next war will be won by who has more Likes. What the world has become...

Re:I don't get this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, now, the Lavi was an indigenous Israeli system that they sold China out of spite because the American F-16 "stole" the entire light-fighter export market. Not quite the same thing.

Re:I don't get this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps it is because the Chinese have not stolen anything and this is another false flag operation.

Re:I don't get this.

[Anonymous Coward]

And it hasn't changed anything.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/telecommunications/huawei-barred-from-nbn-rollout/story-fn4iyzsr-1226309888516

Huawei barred from NBN rollout.
March 26, 2012 7:51AM
THE Federal Government was concerned about cyber attacks originating in China when it rejected a bid by Huawei to take part in the rollout of the National Broadband Network.

The government said yesterday it was committed to protecting the integrity of its proposed $36 billion high-speed Internet network following a report it had banned Huawei Technologies from taking part because of concerns about cyber attacks originating in China.

They're still trying to get back in:

http://www.theage.com.au/business/huawei-still-pushes-nbn-deal-20130307-2fodm.html

... though it won't be easy with this:

US congressional reports labelled the company a national security threat, a claim vigorously denied by the company.

Re:I don't get this.

[Anonymous Coward]

no one seems to care that much when america does it.

Re:I don't get this.

[Anonymous Coward]

America has been stealing ip for much longer. Want to know how much ford gave the actuall inventro of the car? ZERO.

Re:I don't get this.

[steelfood]

In 8 years, China will be shipping their designs out to Africa.

Not that it matters. China will always have a ton more people than the U.S. They will always have a collective competitive advantage, if only because of economies of scale.

VPN

[MotoRyan]

Also, how do we know that the IP address from the US is not just a VPN endpoint?

China acting responsibly

[skywire]

Any nation-state that does no espionage is irresponsible. They all do it. It's a game, and someone on the US side made a poor move.

Re:China acting responsibly

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a propaganda move, it has nothing to do with responsibility.

It's all about reinforcing the idea that you can't trust the Chinese.

The reality is you can't trust any government.

But we mustn't say that.

"sophisticated weapon design"

[beefoot]

You think US would allow their most sophisticated weapon design to be stolen by kids in China? No. I think what's really happening behind the scene are: a) the designs are faked -- it wants to drain Chinese resources on building something that never works b) US government wants to introduce a legislature to curb on internet activity. They put out this type of news to support their intent. c) all the above

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[gstoddart]

Well, b) might be incidentally true ... but I'm more inclined to believe they really were incompetent enough to let this stuff get broken into and stolen.

Some elaborate conspiracy to appear incompetent while fooling the Chinese hackers is a little harder to believe.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember reading a story about how the US basically let the USSR steal a piece of 'important' software and the software started reporting back to the US gov with the USSR's secrets. I'd love to think this was happening here but I have a hard time believe any politician in the last 10-20 years is that competent or forward thinking.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[fredprado]

Yes, because the Chinese government wouldn't ever identify a fake design. You overestimate your country and underestimate your enemies too much.... It is much more likely that someone in management messed up and left classified information where it shouldn't be.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[Nidi62]

Some elaborate conspiracy to appear incompetent while fooling the Chinese hackers is a little harder to believe.

If there is anything that government as a rule is good at, it is incompetency.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[ColdWetDog]

Exactly. And why do you a think that the US plans actually work?

If the Chinese stole the entire plans for the F-35, do you think they could actually make it fly? What they could do is whack out the bad parts, make it simpler and cheaper.

And then we can buy it from them.

Win. Win.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[Anonymous Coward]

Some elaborate conspiracy to appear incompetent while fooling the Chinese hackers is a little harder to believe.

If there is anything that government as a rule is good at, it is incompetency.

Exactly. Never attribute to malice what can otherwise be attributed to incompetence. Incompetence wins every time.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[DMUTPeregrine]

Well, it's the F-35, of course the plans don't make a working plane! Maybe they can figure out how to get one to perform to spec.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[Anonymous Coward]

Propaganda is a two way street.

There are a lot of wonderful "stories" about the US outsmarting the Soviets.

Wonder if the Soviets have similar stories?

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[Atomic Fro]

Ah, yes. the Siberian pipeline explosion.

Re:"sophisticated weapon design"

[AK Marc]

Only if they buy UK engines for it.

Then sic the RIAA on them

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the RIAA, that's worse.

Re:Then sic the RIAA on them

[K. S. Kyosuke]

I am sure that the Russian Internet Armament Acquisition agency would disagree.

Re:Then sic the RIAA on them

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the purchasers of the 35A that's as bad as it could get.

We have mountains of data

[mhesd]

The obviously count every single automatic attack on the sshd port, made from millions hacked zombie computers from all over the world, as 'data'. Not serious.

I'm American and So Am I...

[ilikenwf]

These machines shouldn't have been connected to the internet... They also shouldn't have been running OSX or Windows. From there, freaking use LUKS to prevent physical threat and otherwise don't allow Chinese nationals to come into rooms with sensitive data.

I wish my country would come up with a decent security policy...of course, this could've all been a trick, and they could have potentially placed these in a convenient location with compromised plans designed to just cost money and explode...but I don't give the bureaucrats that much credit.

Yeah, whatever China.

[CreamyG31337]

The Mandiant report was pretty damning.
"In over 97% of the 1,905 times Mandiant observed APT1 intruders connecting to their attack infrastructure, APT1 used IP addresses registered in Shanghai and systems set to use the Simplified Chinese language."
Oh, sure, it's probably just random hackers that really like that network...

Here's an update:
https://www.mandiant.com/blog/apt1-months-significantly-impacted-active-rebuilding/

Re:Yeah, whatever China.

[flayzernax]

If I was a Chinese government payed hacker I just use some fairly Anonymous or hard to follow accounts to just purchase access to U.S. hosted servers. Or the U.S.s favorite enemies of the day, which don't really have good internet access.

This is pure political bullshit to keep the masses confused. It is unlikely really anything more. Probably equally participated in by both sides.

Making them stealable?

[fahrbot-bot]

Holy crap! Even more reason to ensure my car doors are locked, lest it end up in China.
[ and a car analogy to boot :-) ]

Let them steal the plans

[Anonymous Coward]

Let them steal the plans, but use a honeypot of plans that when implemented don't work or leave traces that they were stolen.

Outsourced R&D

[Scot Seese]

WalMart has outsourced the production of plastic flower pots and patio furniture to China for decades - the Chinese are simply reversing the process! By letting U.S. taxpayers fund the billions of dollars per year we pour into military R&D, they save massive amounts of money and man hours, and are guaranteed the best designs that 17 year old Chinese Red-Bull & Cheetos-fuelled hax0rs can steal.

Take a copy-catted F22 Raptor, paint a Chinese air force insignia on it, and * VOILA! * Fifth generation air superiority fighter MINUS the 20 years of research and testing.
What you say? Their copy is only 85% as good as ours because they made shortcuts in the radar, or avionics, or missile systems? That's OK, our congress will keep paring down the final platform order until our air force ends up only getting 200 F22s, while the Chinese will manufacture 1,150 of theirs.

The current US military philosophy is starting to look more and more like WW2 era Germany, with absolute faith placed in a relatively small number of extremely expensive, extremely high quality weapons systems, which ultimately were smothered and overrun by a developing nation (the U.S.) with phenomenal industrial capacity capable of running M4 tanks, jeeps, B17 bombers, and numerous other things off assembly lines faster than the Germans could destroy them.

The comparative ironies to today's military situation are incredible.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[rahvin112]

Arm chair generals. Although the information they stole is valuable they haven't stolen information that's going to have them building Raptors. China has been trying to copy SU-27 jets for about a decade now, they can't get the engines built right and are at the point of having to go back to a Russia that vowed never to sell to them again to beg them for rights to purchase more advanced systems.

Even though they have working Russian built engines to compare against they weren't able to duplicate the engines. Any Engineer can tell you why, even with detailed schematics, if you don't understand the design you don't know where the critical sections of the design are or what processes to use during assembly that prevent catastrophic failure later. Most of these highly advanced weapon systems have decades of incremental experience built into the design. Even small differences in manufacturing can render parts unusable and it's experience that teaches you that, not schematics and working samples. Though the design information and working samples accelerate learning they don't do away with it.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the government doesn't have the full plans to make an F-22. They know how to perform final assembly and have most of the technical drawings for individual parts, but almost all of the manufacture is done by independent corporations who have much better security policies.

So what if this engine is made out of titanium rings held +/- 0.005". That doesn't tell you how to forge a ring or how to test it. It doesn't give you all the schematics for assembly tools or processes. Everything is spread out over a thousand different companies contracting to each other, many of which even have individuals who are reluctant to part with their little secret which keeps them employed.

Much of our old space travel technology, including the construction of the original Apollo capsule, is lost to time and bureaucracy. Being able to completely copy, standardize, and scale up a process is the wet dream of aerospace executives everywhere, but it's a lot harder than you might think.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you be more specific? I thought designs and schematics would detail all of these things to make sure someone else knows what to do. It's a bad idea to let critical information get stuck in the heads of your scientists and engineers in case they, you know, die.

Of course, if all you have is a physical engine and nothing else, it's not going to be easy to replicate it especially if your engineers have been copying instead of designing their on own.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

and overrun by a developing nation (the Soviet Union) with phenomenal industrial capacity capable of running T-34 tanks, Kalaschnikows, Katjuschas, and numerous other things off assembly lines faster than the Germans could destroy them.

FTFY.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't surprising they can't get it to work, they seem to think that if a part looks right it will work the same
Lots of Chinese spare parts for cars bikes etc. that look like the real thing, but if you try to use it it is made in the wrong material
and is useless

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

Or they'll get an engine design from some other country. Jets aren't exactly exclusive to the USSR \ USA. I hear Europe is having some financial difficulties this days...

Re:Outsourced R&D

[dj245]

Can you be more specific? I thought designs and schematics would detail all of these things to make sure someone else knows what to do. It's a bad idea to let critical information get stuck in the heads of your scientists and engineers in case they, you know, die.

Here's one.

My company sells gas turbines for generating electricity. These are based on a standard design which is analyzed to death and then built full-scale to make sure it performs. There is one main package (the gas turbine) and then small little modules which resemble small shipping containers (10x10ft, 15x20ft, etc) with equipment inside. The piping and electricals is run between the packages and the little modules.

Even if you had all the blueprints and design documents, you could easilly fall into the trap of thinking that "modular" implies a similarity to LEGOs and you can lay out the modules wherever you want, changing the placement to suit the site conditions. Maybe you want to move Module X from the left side of the machine to the right side of the machine, or move Module Y by 20 feet in order to try to hide a noisy piece of equipment from a residential area.

On the surface, this sounds quite easy! Just make sure your pipefitters have a little extra pipe, and the electricians have a little extra wiring so they can connect it up. The problem is that the system is completely and tightly integrated-

The piping has been analyzed in the standard design for friction losses and thermal stress. Move the module without considering this, and maybe the system doesn't get quite the pressure it was expecting. Maybe the pipes crack because of thermal expansion.

The Hazardous area classification has been studied in the standard design. Pressurized, airtight, explosion-proof electrical junction boxes are expensive, so they don't get used if they aren't needed. You use a regular one instead. Not a problem at all if you aren't in a hazardous area. Move that module 20 feet, however, and maybe you have put it in a dangerous location.

The entire layout has been planned for maintenance and construction. There is enough room to take everything apart and put it back together again. If you move a module to the wrong spot, maybe you can't remove Part Y from the machine. Or maybe you don't have enough room to put a wrench on equipment Z, so you can't install it in the first place.

The electricals have been designed as an integrated system too, and optimized to use the smallest wire possible while still being reliable and safe. If you make the length longer, however, maybe the resistance loss is high enough that the signal is unreliable.

As the GP said, if you are stealing plans for complicated equipment, you basically have to get to know the design as well as the original designer. If you don't, it is very easy to make a small change for reasons of improvement or localization which completely breaks the design. This can happen even if you have every drawing and document ever made for the thing. Inevitably you will have to change something, especially if you are stealing from the US since we use imperial measurements. It can be as simple as using 26mm thick steel plate instead of 1 inch thick steel plate.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

Accelerated learning is the whole point of the Chinese hacking efforts. Sure China lags in their ability to manufacture based upon their stolen knowledge. So what? The Soviets couldn't make quiet subs for many years but they kept at it and conducted mucho espionage to push them forward. Eventually they caught up.

This is the game the Chinese are engaged in. They will shorten their learning curve by years to decades by espionage and hacking. Worst case scenario (for the West of course) is that eventually they will surpass us. If that happens it won't matter that they struggled with this or that weapons system at some point in the past. Those are relatively short-term technical and organizational issues. Those issues will pass so long as the Chinese keep expending resources on them.

The Americans struggled for a while with supersonic aviation. Who cares about that now? The early rocket program was plagued by failures. Of what importance, other than historical, is that now?

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

As an alternative one could look for non-military solutions to problems?

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with you theory is that during WW2 it was the Russians that overran Germany with their superior weapons and manufacturing capability. Which for the record if you are not aware Russia produced more weapons of a high quality during WW2 than America did. They also provided more man power, fought and won more battles then the Americans did. So to say the Americans won WW2 is a very inaccurate presentation of the facts - the Allies won WW2.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

This post is pretty insightful, but with the caveat that the Chinese have an army of engineers educated in Western Universities. They may not be interested in any aspect of the support components and are only looking for solutions to specific problems. Maybe they can't identify an alloy which handles the thermal cycling while maintaining the necessary tolerances required for fit and function with component Y only to find their competitors are using component Z which eliminates the problem entirely.

When I am scrutinizing competing products to the ones designed by myself, I'm not trying to clone their implementation because implementation is typically optimized on a business-specific basis. I'm looking for solutions to problems I've had which are better than the ones I came up with myself.

To argue against myself, my analogy may not carry over to situations where they are cloning shit on a CMM to avoid having to do their own CFD as an example.

The comedy of that can of worms is that any modification to system design to cope with supply chain realities could have a profound impact on center of gravity or some other minutia. Elements impacting the motivations behind design decisions such as canard placement or wing twist are frequently the driving influence behind the very aspects which require expensive testing and simulation in the first place. It can be incredibly difficulty to successfully implement anything other than an exact clone without putting in the time and R&D. To enhance or refine from that point is a minefield of opportunities to regress.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[Scot Seese]

I prefer this old gem:

"World War 2 was won with American manufacturing, British intelligence, and Soviet blood."

Some statistics:

B17 Flying Fortress: 12,731 units produced - 14 to 16 units per day
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress
B24 Liberators: 18,400+ units produced
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_B-24_Liberator#cite_ref-Ethell_1995.2C_p._214_6-0
P51 Mustangs, all variants: 15,486 units (1 per 24 minutes)
  Willys Jeep: 640,000 units
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep#World_War_II_Jeeps
M4 Sherman Tank, all variants: 53,362 units
        http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/tanks-medium/m4-production.asp

Re:Outsourced R&D

[AK Marc]

China has no ability to project power. They are close to having their first carrier, but couldn't attack the US with a force that wouldn't be repelled by the police force in any US mainland town. One square block in LA has more guns and manpower than China could land on the US mainland. Unless they walk over in winter across Alaska, the US military could decide to not fight (they only fight outside the US), and the civilian population would have more firepower than China could point at the US. China is at least 20 years away from a military that could take down the US (again presuming no military resistance). If the population knew the actual odds of anyone invading (somewhere between zero and less than zero), the military industrial complex might take a hit in income, so we must make the Chinese out to sound much more capable. Not that they aren't, but the war they are expecting to fight is against Russia or India. And they have nothing that could touch the US, nor would they want to.

Re:Outsourced R&D

[AK Marc]

So, the schematics don't work? What's the point of schematics if you can't take them to a factory and have them make the widget for you?

hacking into US infrastructure is an act of war

[jsepeta]

Ready the bombers!

Although really, the only way to take down China is to release a virulent and deadly virus attack in their top 20 cities.

Re:hacking into US infrastructure is an act of war

[gary_7vn]

What a brilliant idea.

Or you could put them in camps and gas them.

People like you are the reason we are fucked.

Re:hacking into US infrastructure is an act of war

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, arrogant thinking "the bombers" are the answer. Maybe in the year 1500 going to "war" was a solution to the worlds issues but haven't moved past that? Perhaps some Chinese is posting on a blog that releasing a deadly virus in the top 20 US cities is the only solution to take down the US (which spys on china pretty heavily).

As the art of war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War) says "know your enemy".

China has bombers as well..

Re:hacking into US infrastructure is an act of war

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardly. You want to know why bioweapons are so reviled, even beyond nuclear warheads? Because they're insidious. Diseases and such have a horrible way of spreading beyond the target area, the recent article on an unreleased strain Monsanto grain popping up randomly is evidence of that. Unless you have an antidote and 300% certainty the disease can't/won't mutate into something immune to the antidote. These days, with transport being fast and effective (anywhere in the world within 48 hours), just about anything can go from A to B faster than expected.

Nuclear warheads at least have a limited range, even then the nuclear fallout cannot be initially contained, but rather has to be waited out.

Re:hacking into US infrastructure is an act of war

[Anonymous Coward]

"Take down the Chinese"

Lol. There was a movie about a similar sentiment called "A Day Without a Mexican". The desire to eliminate the Chinese scourge is to me hilarious on a profound level.

If you feel threatened by the Chinese why don't you have the courage to compete in an arena that the Deltas and Epsilon Semi-morons dare not venture? You know: progressing society rather than being complacent & anxious as a fungible cog?

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard."

Like it or not, it is a symbiotic relationship and harm to either party would be incredibly disruptive to whichever of the two you consider to be the host. If it's the Chinese then your genocidal ambitions are all the more ridiculous. Might as well execute doctors and professors at that point. You could call it a "Cultural Revolution".

Is__el

[gary_7vn]

Israel has been caught, many times, stealing and spying. Yet, I have never seen a US President complain about this. Why?

The next enemy for America is China. Right now the US is in cold war with them. But it's going to get hot soon. Much of what is happening in the Middle East is about controlling the oil and thus, China.

The next battlespace will be Africa.

America is sleep walking, as usual, into a war with China.

Re:Is__el

[Anonymous Coward]

Every country spies on every other country, friend or foe. If the US were to complain about Israeli spying, they could complain about US spying. I would guess that the level of USIsraeli spying is relatively minimal, based on the fact that, as you pointed out, no one is complaining about it.

Africa

[LeadSongDog]

The next battlespace will be Africa

Next? WTF do you call what is going on there now?

Re:Africa

[Anonymous Coward]

that is just a bunch of black people fighting each other over which warlord get to sell resources and hide the money in Switzerland
as long as we can buy what we need cheap and pay most in weapons that's all fine

US Infosec Incompetence summed up in one sentence!

[endus]

'Even following the general principle of secret-keeping, it should not have been linked to the Internet.'"

You think so??? Really? This is a novel concept to our American Information Security Industry, please, tell us more! Surely you don't mean that power plants and water treatment facilities and power grids and other sensitive facilities should not be linked to the internet...HOW THE FUCK ARE THE OPERATORS GOING TO GET TO FACEBOOK IF WE DISCONNECT THEM!?!?!?!?

I have little sympathy for the US government

[Karmashock]

Listen. I am an American citizen and I do not want our secret whatever weapons plans stolen by ANYONE. We paid good tax money for those space lasers and trained velociraptor dragoons. I'd like to think we could actually go to war without all our wonderful toys being obsolete.

So why is the US government putting our top secret hush hush designs ON THE F"ING INTERNET LIKE DRUNKEN COEDS POSTING THEIR BOOBS ON FACEBOOK!

From here on out... lets just make a rule. If you're just straight up illiterate of computer science then do the universe a favor and don't get put in charge of computer ANYTHING. The degree of ignorance and incompetence out of government lately seems almost comical. Its as if the point is to illistrate that you're stupid. Is that what I'm to take from these events? I should hope not. Because if you can't be trusted with something as basic as keeping a few weapons plans secret then you're not capable of actually doing anything. Keeping a couple secrets is fundamental. Do it or its time to just dissolve the whole thing and start over.

You are embarrassing yourself and us by extension. Stop it. Are the Chinese spying on you? Do men look at a women that runs naked through a park? Put your damn clothes on.

Re:I have little sympathy for the US government

[thoth]

So why is the US government putting our top secret hush hush designs ON THE F"ING INTERNET

The U.S. Government? Every incident I've read of has been some kind of intrusion at a defense contractor. Meaning, corporate America is dropping the ball on security. But that's because corporations are all about profits and security is just an expense...

Anyway, has there been any published info about an intrusion at an actual U.S. Government facility, not a private company? Honestly, I haven't seen any press about that, maybe I missed it.

Re:I have little sympathy for the US government

[Karmashock]

Actually, I've seen quite a few leaks from the Department of energy... just nuclear bomb plans. Nothing to worry about folks. Move alone.

Re:I have little sympathy for the US government

[thoth]

Sorry, but leaks and hacks aren't the same thing.
If by leaks you mean some employee took info out, well that's espionage and unfortunately not 100% preventable without mind reading.

Re:I have little sympathy for the US government

[Karmashock]

I get you, its okay if the government leaks horribly but if a private corp drops the ball its a sign of their inherent evil.

Gotcha.

Sorry if that's rude but I have a low tolerance for double standards.

How about this, sport... How about neither leaks or is hacked or otherwise reveals state secrets? Does that work for you?

The level of incompetence we've seen from multiple parties within our society as regards computer security has been pathetic. Something needs to be done about it.

Here is my fix: Have the government hack its own systems and the systems of contractors to test security. Task the NSA with it. Part of the need for that is that we can't set universal standards because not everyone is using the same technology. So forget about universal standards. Make it empirical. Hack our own systems and then have the hackers explain to the security people how they got in. Incentive network penetrations so we don't get one department effectively paying off another to get a pass.

Is that the perfect solution? Probably not. But its the best I've got.

Quantity Advantage

[Tablizer]

China has about 3 times our population, which means they have about 3 times as many skilled hackers (or will soon). This doesn't bode well for US in a cyberwar.

Immigration amnesty is starting to look more attractive.

I hate to say it but I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

'Even following the general principle of secret-keeping, it should not have been linked to the Internet.'

I realize, in this day and age, it's much more convenient and (maybe?) necessary to have documents available for download to various people across the states that are involved. But how many times has this happened? If someone discovered a hide-key on your front porch and used the key to break into your home. Would you just continue to leave the key in the same place? Maybe hide it under a rock rather than the flower pot they found it under? More importantly once they broke into your home and stole all of your stuff the 3rd or 4th time wouldn't you realize that there must be a better way to let your family/friends/neighbors etc... have access to your home?

Is there really no other way, in this day and age, that our government can share classified documents other than Windows computers connected to the rest of the world via the internet?

Maybe not stolen but...

[Anonymous Coward]

If I provide flawed data for you to "steal" then I win.

Pretty much.

[John Pfeiffer]

My father does a good job of capturing the sheer absurdity, I think.

Me: So, apparently China says that not only are we just as guilty of attacking them, but it's our own damn fault they were able to get at the data.
Him: Let me get this straight, China's response to our accusations of cyber-espionage is basically "I know I am, but what are you?" ... I need a moment.

New Cold War...

[Oil_Tan]

The US Gov allowed this to happen. How else will the US GOV fleece the tax payers for billions more for weapons development? This is a healthy ongoing event for the United States. When a country quits making history, they tend to die out. I just hope there is a few trojans in the plans the Chinese acquired. Anyone remember the Russian Trans Siberian pipeline explosion? There just might be a "chink" in the Great Wall of China.....courtesy of the CIA.

What huh? Who said they stole via the Internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

I always assumed traditional industrial espionage. But hey, isn't saying they shouldn't be accessible over the Internet sort of confessing? Time to take China into the back room at the police station and get some answers...

Real World Scripting

[pubwvj]

China: "It's your fault, you wore a red dress!"

USA: "Oo... You big bad boy... I love your money!"

These two need couple's counseling.

China isn't the only 'threat'; secure our f'ing

[Anonymous Coward]

systems and remove critical ones from the Internet and implement policies that what comes in must never go back out!

It's only going to get worse...

[Anonymous Coward]

Until we do something about it nothing will change. China has had zero concequences in this and has been nothing but hostile toward the US for over 30 years now. They're scheming and planning. Read between the lines. We need to send a serious body check to the Chinese and their networks. We have some fairly serious game changers that China has never seen. Stuxnet would look like a mere Inchworm compared to some of the things. The US is attacked regularly and mostly because of lack of consequence. Let's slow the internet down for a week or two and ruin some hardrives. Maybe people will start thinking twice.

Re:It's only going to get worse...

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty one sided don't you think. How many "drones" have the Chinese sent over to the US? You are not trying to say the US has NEVER spied on anyone or reverse engineered technology are you?

Anyhow its interesting to read that the response is typically "the US has been attacked and must retaliate". Wonder how that sort of foreign policy will work out as the US continues its gradual decline?

Seems like a lot of this is the US repositioning to have the new "enemy". Can you name a period where the US wasn't in a state of "war" (either hot or cold)? Everyone's gotten tired of "terror" or "iraq" so its time to move on?

Did you know the US and china were once allies fighting the Japanese in China?

Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers and if you are every in Guilin, China you can go on a tour and see some of the US dog tags and wreckage from that time period in the museum they built.

Escalation via counterattack is in our playbook

[BubbaDave]

Hell, there was a topic here just in the last week that counterattacking was SOP, whether it was objectively useful or not.

We can't allow an intrusion gap to develop!

Public Shaming

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sure the Chinese would be quite happy if the US would just try to settle these disputes by talking privately instead of going public, then they could continue to ignore the problem. Huang Chengqing alludes to this and attempts to make the US appear incompetent for putting the plans online, so you can see their displeasure in this. However, the Chinese moral compass is much more heavily guided by pride and shame rather than by a sense of guilt and compassion, so the threat of shaming is often the best way to keep the Chinese in line.

Seriously?

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, pants on fire over there in China! Who do you think you are kidding?