TSA Decides Against Allowing Small Knives On Aircraft

New submitter lemur3 writes "After multiple months of discussing possible changes to the prohibited items list, the Transportation Security Administration in the United States has determined that it is best to go ahead without any changes to the list of items passengers may have in their carry-on baggage when traveling by air. Under the proposed change (discussed previously on Slashdot) pocket knives and other items, such as hockey sticks and ski poles, would have been allowed."

Comments

There goes another Swiss Army knife

[cusco]

I've carried a pocket knife since my dad bought me one for my 8th birthday, not having that weight in that pocket doesn't feel right. Since this foolishness started I've lost at least six to the TSA, since I tend to catch flights too early to be properly awake.. Going on vacation again in a couple of weeks, and I'll probably lose another either on the way there or the way back.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

While i think the TSA sucks bozack.. you'd think after the 2nd or 3rd time you'd learn how to avoid losing things to them

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Nerdfest]

I always carry a Leatherman Micra. I lost one once, and managed to buy a whole bag of them from those confiscated from an airport. At least one (given to someone) has returned to where it came from.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Etherwalk]

They should just charge a $5 fee and mail it to you if you don't want it destroyed.

It is kind of silly, though. Post 911, nobody can take over a plane with a few knives. The only reason to not allow them is that they can result in more injuries on a plane, but that seems so unlikely as to not be terribly persuasive.

I once walked into a secure federal building with a knife by accident; the guards thought about it and then didn't care. Which is really the right result.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

They should just charge a $5 fee and mail it to you if you don't want it destroyed.

Most major airports have kiosks for explicitly this purpose.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[hawguy]

They should just charge a $5 fee and mail it to you if you don't want it destroyed.

It is kind of silly, though. Post 911, nobody can take over a plane with a few knives. The only reason to not allow them is that they can result in more injuries on a plane, but that seems so unlikely as to not be terribly persuasive.

I once walked into a secure federal building with a knife by accident; the guards thought about it and then didn't care. Which is really the right result.

I've seen self-service mail kiosks in some airports where you can mail your prohibited items to yourself. You still would have to get back out of the security line to get back to the Kiosk, but if you have something valuable it's probably worth it. So far I've only lost 99 cent nail clippers but I think those are allowed now.

http://www.engadget.com/2005/05/04/airport-kiosks-let-travelers-mail-off-limits-items/

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

I've flown at least once in the past year with a leatherman knockoff in my carry-on. It was completely by accident and didn't notice it was in my bag until I was unpacking at home after the trip.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

When I'm packing to travel, I am figure out what to bring, not what not to bring. It's very easy to forget to not bring something that is with you so much you don't even think about it. Imagine if you weren't allowed to carry your wallet with you. You'd forget. And even if you personally are somehow special (or more likely young) and wouldn't forget, most of us aren't that special.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[camperdave]

They should just charge a $5 fee and mail it to you if you don't want it destroyed.

Most major airports have kiosks for explicitly this purpose.

Which ones? I've never seen one.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[ackthpt]

Nothing like getting to where you are flying and by reflex reaching for that Swiss Army Knife I always carry, because something needs a little tweak.

But by all means, let's continue to behave like a bunch of frightened lemmings.

this also ends my plans for Ackthpt's Small Knives And Pointy Objects Emporium in airports from coast to coast.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Dahamma]

this also ends my plans for Ackthpt's Small Knives And Pointy Objects Emporium in airports from coast to coast.

Yeah, now you know why the TSA rescinded the order - they didn't want you to compete with their current side business selling pocket knives. (I think my uncle bought a box of corkscrews by the pound).

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Prof.Phreak]

Only one I've seen was Kansas airport (didn't see them in LAX, JFK, etc.).

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[hawguy]

They should just charge a $5 fee and mail it to you if you don't want it destroyed.

Most major airports have kiosks for explicitly this purpose.

Which ones? I've never seen one.

Here's a list of airports for one company's checkpoint mailers, there are probably other companies that do the same thing in other airports:

http://www.airportmailers.com/airportlist.php

There was a company called ReturnKey that did the same thing (I linked to an Engadget article that mentions them in another post), but their domain is dead, so they seem to have gone out of business.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Mr. Slippery]

Nothing like getting to where you are flying and by reflex reaching for that Swiss Army Knife I always carry, because something needs a little tweak.

As idiotic as the rule is, you can still put your SAK in your checked baggage, and so reload it at your destination. (Even though the airlines are working hard to make checking bags expensive and difficult.)

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[DerekLyons]

I was about to say the same thing... I've traveled many times since 9/11, and have lost precisely nothing to the TSA. I put my pocketknife and lighter in my checked baggage the night before, and carry a spare lighter I can toss once I get to the airport. (I've got a couple of almost empty disposables stashed for just that purpose.) I've never had a problem finding a light at my destination.

The problem isn't the TSA, the problem is the grandparent is an idiot who won't take responsibility for his own actions.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jockle]

The problem isn't the TSA

Just because you've had different experiences doesn't mean the problem isn't the TSA.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Obfuscant]

I've seen one just recently added to Portland International (PDX) DE gates security. I assume ABC has one, too.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[jcr]

Post 911, nobody can take over a plane with a few knives.

Post 9/11, nobody's ever going to take over a plane again, period. Someone might be able to destroy one, but the days of "just do what the bad man says" are over.

-jcr

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jane Q. Public]

"I was about to say the same thing... I've traveled many times since 9/11, and have lost precisely nothing to the TSA."

Wish I could say the same. I have not flown very often in recent years, but the last time I did, a rare and expensive (and perfectly legal) laser was missing from my luggage when I picked it up at my destination. I have little doubt it was stolen by the TSA baggage inspectors. Even if they (wrongly) thought it was illegal, they are required to inform you when they confiscate something. So it wasn't that... it was simply stolen.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

No the problem can at times be the TSA. Let me illustrate...

Look at the jolt cola can referenced by this link: http://bevwire.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/jolt-cola-soon-to-be-discontinued/

I was at SD West (last one btw), and they were giving out the jolt cola awards, and cans. I managed to get a can, put it into my backpack with my notebook. The next morning, too early (as I was flying to Europe) I forgot the can was in there. So off I go into the search, and they asked "what's this?" I said its cola, and they asked if I wanted to drink it. I said, "na, just throw it away, its too big for me to drink right now".

Well, apparently that was the wrong answer. One agent said "we have never seen this type of can!" I was like, really? Never, apparaently it was a new can design. So off they go and search my entire body and took my entire backpack apart. I was there 45 minutes! It was not funny and of course they found nothing. This was a stupid search and because the TSA had never seen one of their products from their own country I was dodgy! Come on people!

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

you misspelled Barack

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Could also have been the airline baggage handlers.

The best way to "handle" this theft problem is to have windows allowing passengers to see their luggage being searched and see it being handled by the baggage handlers. There is no reason why it needs to be done privately, unless someone is up to no good.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't even trust the baggage handlers. What makes you think I want the public at large to see the contents of my luggage?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

I carry a priority envelope for mailing anything to myself I forgot to take it out of my pocket or suitcase. I almost lost a tiny pen knife once, so started packing this lightweight solution.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[ShanghaiBill]

The problem isn't the TSA

The problem isn't the TSA either way. The TSA realizes that the restrictions on small knives and tools are silly and a waste of resources. They wanted to make the change. But they got too much push back from politicians and "think of the children" citizens. So they caved in.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Richy_T]

I left my laptop at security last time I flew. $70 to have it shipped including $28 for the stupid UPS box.

Yeah, avoid doing that if you can help it. (TSA guy stacked the boxes when they random searched me and it is a thin Chromebook)

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Richy_T]

I agree. But by that logic we don't need the TSA either so...

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[mosb1000]

The problem isn't the TSA

That's the stupidest thing I've read on /. today. Of course the TSA is the problem. Taking peoples pocket knives is a pointless knee-jerk reaction.

the problem is the grandparent is an idiot who won't take responsibility for his own actions.

That's a pretty big problem too, but then no one said there was only one problem.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

You should mail yourself stuff. UPS can even make custom boxes and packaging for you to use. The money you spend mailing it to yourself is money that you save when you don't have to buy a replacement for it.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[hawguy]

I agree. But by that logic we don't need the TSA either so...

I don't follow that logic.

Just because a passenger won't be able to use a small weapon to coerce the pilot and passengers to let him take over the plane does not mean that TSA can't be useful in preventing someone from taking a bomb or other device on board that can take down the plane (which would be just about as bad as taking over a plane).

That doesn't mean that I agree that TSA's security theater is the best way to prevent this.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Lumpy]

The TSA only exists because of Low IQ citizens and Politicians. the TSA is not needed at all and is a huge waste of money.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Lumpy]

No they dont. the LARGEST hubs, Dallas/Ft Worth, Minnesota, Ohare, LAX, and JFK do not have this or anything at all like this.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

and in this case the TSA was trying to fix the stupid rule. so while the TSA is usually the problem, in this one case they aren't.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[csumpi]

BS. They don't take your knife, they let you check it. Your water, sure, they throw that out. But they won't take your dad's Swiss Army.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife and I are both physicians. Our normal toiletries kit is full of old surgical instruments (protip: a pair of DeBakey forceps, available from eBay for around $10, is the best hair-plucking device possible - keep your nose and ears clean). We've gotten to security and had to double back for scalpel blades, pointed scissors, you name it.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

You are allowed to fly with a lighter.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[mjwx]

The problem isn't the TSA

That's the stupidest thing I've read on /. today. Of course the TSA is the problem. Taking peoples pocket knives is a pointless knee-jerk reaction.

Given all the excesses of the TSA, is not being allowed a small knife onto a plane really your biggest concern?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[The Grim Reefer]

I put my pocketknife and lighter in my checked baggage the night before, and carry a spare lighter I can toss once I get to the airport. (I've got a couple of almost empty disposables stashed for just that purpose.) I've never had a problem finding a light at my destination.

The problem isn't the TSA, the problem is the grandparent is an idiot who won't take responsibility for his own actions.

From the TSA website:

According to the TSA website you are currently allowed to carry a non-torch fuel lighter in your pocket as carry-on. You may also have up to two fuel lighters in your checked baggage that are either empty or in a TSA approved case. At one point in time all lighters were banned from checked or carry-on period. Matches were allowed, then they weren't and now they are again.

Are you checking un-fueled lighters? or are they in an approved case? Or have you just been lucky?

The problem is that the TSA are a bunch of fucking idiots, not the GGP. They don't exactly have a track record of hiring the best and brightest. Then they change the rules too frequently to even keep their own staff informed of what is going on, let alone waste time letting the public know. The bigger problem is that the TSA are a complete waste of time and money.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you preform surgery while at lunch in the afternoon on each others meals?

Re: There goes another Swiss Army knife

[evilRhino]

Checking a bag costs extra money on most (shitty) airlines.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have to toss your lighter. Unless it's a crack...um torch lighter.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Every rights violation is a concern.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[cusco]

Did you miss the part where I said, "I tend to catch flights too early to be properly awake"? Of course I take responsibility for my actions, it's just annoying and stupid that this is something that I actually have to worry about at oh-dark-thirty.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[cusco]

I've had them take my 2 ounce bottle of hot sauce, twice.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever thought of leaving your pocketknife at home before you head for the airport? DUH

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[cusco]

**IF** I'm checking a bag (I normally don't unless I'm traveling for more than two weeks) it's a frack of a long way between TSA's checkpoint and wherever the conveyer belt has dragged my checked bag off to.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[mjwx]

Every rights violation is a concern.

Not that I disagree, but shouldn't you be focusing on the bigger issue?

I mean getting the TSA to "allow" pocket knives whilst they continue their other abuses with reckless abandon seems to be a pyrrhic victory at best.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[ATMAvatar]

As 9/11 was the only significant terrorist-based airline disaster in my lifetime (and I have more years before 2001 than after), I am quite comfortable saying that we don't need the TSA.

But even if we say that there's a slightly increased chance of a disaster without the TSA... terrorists could detonate a bomb aboard two 747 flights every day, every year, and it would still be a distant third cause of death for US citizens.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[thesandtiger]

Why do people keep saying this? There have been hijackings since 9/11 in which the plane was not destroyed and the hijackers took control of the plane.

For an assuredly incomplete list, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings

Pay particular attention to the 10+ ones listed after September 11, 2001.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

What, are you worried they'll glimpse your collection of giant dildos and buttplugs?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

DFW most definitely has them. I have used it before in Terminal E.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[mysidia]

I've carried a pocket knife since my dad bought me one for my 8th birthday, not having that weight in that pocket doesn't feel right. Since this foolishness started I've lost at least six to the TSA

What gives the TSA the right to tell you no you can't have that?

If your plane crashes out somewhere in the wilderness, and you can't survive because you have no lighter to start a fire, and no pocketnife to build shelter and hunt, the TSA folks are going to hell.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[mysidia]

Why do people keep saying this? There have been hijackings since 9/11 in which the plane was not destroyed and the hijackers took control of the plane.

Which one of those was a flight originating from inside the US on a US airline?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jockle]

Not that I disagree, but shouldn't you be focusing on the bigger issue?

Maybe they are? I think a number of people who dislike the TSA want to eradicate it entirely (including me), so working towards that goal would probably fix all of the problems to begin with. All the rights violations are a concern, and there is at least one solution that would fix it all.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jockle]

We wouldn't need the TSA even if what he said turned out to be false. Freedom > security.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[sjames]

The TSA's track record certainly suggests that they can't be useful in preventing someone from taking a bomb on a plane.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

> The TSA only exists because of Low IQ citizens and Politicians.

Low IQ citizens who vote. If they didn't vote, politician's wouldn't care... maybe we can enact some voting requirements. *snark*

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[David_Hart]

I agree. But by that logic we don't need the TSA either so...

Personally, I've through that each airport should have a wing for people who are willing to fly at their own risk. Tickets would cost less, you could get there 15 minutes before the flight, etc... It will never happen, but it would be a nice idea.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes and no, TSA also wants to get rid of the policy, but political pressure makes it so that even thus they publicly said they wanted to change the policy, it didn't work.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[ColdWetDog]

Donuts taste better with hot sauce....

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[MacGyver2210]

You can take a cigarette lighter on a plane... They wouldn't let me take three, but they let me keep one.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[MacGyver2210]

If you think the average citizen knows what sort of bullshit their representatives will do in the name of 'Murrica Versus Terrorists' when they are elected, then you are one of today's Low IQ Citizens. Politicians will tell voters of all walks of life whatever they want to hear, and upon election, just do whatever benefits and profits THEM and THEIR BACKERS the most. They could give two shits less about who voted for them or why.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[MacGyver2210]

stupid that this is something that I actually have to worry about at oh-dark-thirty

You often waking up and getting on planes at 12:30AM?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[bickerdyke]

The problem is the system, that rewards TSA agents for being thourough when they are harassing passengers beyond what would be needed for security purposes.

So the descission for them to make basically is to apply to detain you without reason until you miss your flight with no personal risk and NO PENALTY to them, or let him have his soda can and risk a goor telling of if their supervisor notices.

Not too hard if you can offload all possible ill effects of your job to the subject himself, but have to personally carry the risk of using common sense.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[rtb61]

Well you know your real mistake. You only need to catch the right flight once and from their on in avoid the TSA for the rest of your life, emmigrate. It seems the US is going out of it's to drive it's own citizens out of their country, seriously take the hint, likely you'll be better off ;).

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[bickerdyke]

Because home is that place where we keep all our REAL tools and therefor have absolutely no use for the toy saw on a swiss army knife?

Those things are MADE FOR travelling, whyn you can't lug around a real toolbox.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[BridgetCanning]

Same problem here. I rarely go by planes nowadays (My body isn't as tough as it was before). Maybe I'd go once a year or so to visit family. Everytime I'd pack and go to the airport, I forget the things I';m not supposed to carry on. I keep on surrendering my bottles of alcohol and nail cutters as a result.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

... carried a pocket knife since ...

I tried that but it always fell out of my pocket, being so heavy. Plus in my younger years, I travelled with a lot less in my pockets (no medicine, flash drive, phone, wallet!) so a knife was out of place. Now I am looking at 'nylon steel', or knives made of plastic and glass; no metal to trigger pesky metal detectors. Essentially, if a metal detector exists, it's a crime to walk through the door with a knife in one's pocket. At the moment I have a 'credit card' knife that fits into my wallet, which obviously contains metal coins.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[ShakaUVM]

In this case, the TSA was responding to flight attendants who were reportedly up in arms about people being able to carry swiss army knives on planes again.

So put blame where it is due - the TSA was trying to do the right thing here, but got shouted down by the masses.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Where I live, selling stolen goods is a criminal offence. Is there no such law in the U.S? Or is TSA exempt from it?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[ArsenneLupin]

They should just charge a $5 fee and mail it to you if you don't want it destroyed.

Back in the eighties, they did. Well minus the charge. If you had a dangerous item (knife, drafting compass, ...), you handed it in at the security checkpoint, it would go into a box in the cargo hold (together with similar items of other passengers), and you got it back on arrival.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jane Q. Public]

"Could also have been the airline baggage handlers."

It could have been, but it's less likely, because baggage handlers do not have permission to go through your bags.

Of course it happens. I know that. But I have a very strong suspicion it was TSA.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Stuarticus]

Which country do you recommend where we can all enjoy the right to carry knives on planes freely?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Meeni]

You must have lived under a rock. There has been numerous plane hijacks and blowups over the 80's and early 90's. The TSA is a useless security theater, but there is a need for some sort of security nonetheless, like metal detectors and random picks which have been good enough, as the rate of successful blowups during the end of the 90s prove. No need to go berserk and get everybody groped, that, is useless).

Re: There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Youve not lost 6 to the tsa. Youve lost 6 due to your own ineptitude.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

There really isn't enough talk about this. The TSA exists because we have too many stupid people who continue to think it's a good idea. Period. I know it's a fairly easy way to figure out someone's intelligence by making a TSA joke and seeing who laughs, but go search for pictures of the idiotic flight attendants and pilots who were picketing against this small little rules change that would have done nothing except ease off on the harassment of the flying public. These people should know better, and yet there they were--protesting against even a tiny bit more freedom because the very thought of it sent their brains into complete and utter irrational fearful overload. People whose minds are governed by emotions have no business trying to tell anybody how to do anything, and to me, have no business being responsible for a large fast moving object full of humans. Freedom of speech is very important, even ultimately important, but it cannot come without consequences because this particular message causes direct harm to others. I do not and will not advocate that speech be restricted by the government. However, those "protesters" should be removed from their jobs and from the aviation industry permanently. I do not trust any one of them with my life after they have demonstrated a complete lack of ability to make rational decisions concerning risk.

It's illustrative of a very big and very bad point: the TSA can't change even if they want to as long as we have in our midst anti-freedom citizens who make decisions absent any hint of rationality. If they can't do this relatively simple thing, what's going to happen if they decide to get rid of the lunacy of removing shoes at checkpoints, or doing away with the stupid liquid restrictions? Remember, both of those things were political reactions to total failures of attempted "terrorist attacks". It was assumed by lots of people that at the time that this was just another TSA power trip, and it might well have been--but what if it was the TSA giving in to political pressure to "do something"? There seems to be ample evidence now that the entire Bush Administration "terror alert" system was manipulated for political gain, and the TSA with it. Sure, the terror alert system is gone, being another stupid idea in the first place, but the fear based decision making and manipulation remains.

This, unfortunately, is going to take a while. If our parents and grandparents were as stupid as some of us are, we'd never have made peace with Japan after WWII because they'd be too busy living in fear of another Pearl Harbor attack.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[WorkingDead]

The TSA is a government jobs program. It employs over 55,000 people with little to no marketable skills or training. It's obvious to everyone that the TSA is a waste but its not going away because it would spike the unemployment rate and hurt our economic recovery.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[WorkingDead]

The TSA only exists because of Low IQ citizens and Politicians. the TSA is not needed at all and is a huge waste of money.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Lumpy]

Exactly. Want to know that a politician is lying? Their mouth is moving.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Lumpy]

Then it is brand new, I flew out of DFW 30 days ago and they were not there. Although I did not use Terminal E.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

I frequently go through the DFW airport (since I live around that area and travel quite a bit) and have never seen one of those, and that company apparently has them at DFW International.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Culture20]

You put an expensive, fragile item in checked luggage?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[SirGarlon]

Of those 10+ you claim, only five are supported by citations. The other five, I consider works of fiction. Of the five cases supported by citations, three resulted in the passengers overpowering the hijacker and the other two resulted in the hijacker being arrested on the ground. So yes, there have been two documented hijackings since 9/11 where the hijackers took control of the plane: in Mauritania and Cyrpus.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[SimonInOz]

In the terminal at Zurich (yes, that's the capital of Switzerland for the geographically impaired), you can buy the entire range of Swiss Army knives. I checked (May 2013), and they told me this was fine unless I was flying to USA.
So I bought two.
And it was indeed fine.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[RobertLTux]

easy way to ensure your luggage does not get opened by the TSA (in transit)

PROPERLY CHECK A FIREARM

once they check it at the airport it is considered a SEALED PACKAGE and can not legally be opened by anyone without you present.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[IndustrialComplex]

Given all the excesses of the TSA, is not being allowed a small knife onto a plane really your biggest concern?

In response to an article that is discussing the TSA not allowing small knives onto planes? Yes.

If the article were about x-ray scanners, the knife issue would be of less concern, but from the perspective of this thread, yes it is the biggest concern.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing "insightful" about this comment. The TSA may or may not be a waste of money, but an insightful comment would put forward the reasons for making such a claim rather than throwing insults at unnamed and overly-generalized groups of people

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[cusco]

Actually we'll be moving to Peru to retire, so you're not totally off base.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[chihowa]

A starter pistol is great for this. The TSA treats it like a real firearm, but many cities and states that have strict firearm laws don't consider them firearms (especially if you don't bring the caps for it).

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[tlhIngan]

Same problem here. I rarely go by planes nowadays (My body isn't as tough as it was before). Maybe I'd go once a year or so to visit family. Everytime I'd pack and go to the airport, I forget the things I';m not supposed to carry on. I keep on surrendering my bottles of alcohol and nail cutters as a result.

I know it's not cool, but there's a useful resource called "the internet" that one can use to look up such information. I know, you probably phone your travel agency and book your tickets through them (though I'm sure if you ask nicely they'll include a little pamphlet with the information as well).

I know, you're probably in a rush and don't have time to check in via the internet and all that cool stuff they do these days, or to even check if your plane is on time before you leave for the airport.

They should just charge a $5 fee and mail it to you if you don't want it destroyed.

Some do actually. When they confiscate, they ask if you want to have it sent home or just tossed. Of course it may depend on the airport and how busy they are, but I believe it was an option.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[jandrese]

I lost a knife to the TSA a few years ago, so now whenever I have an early flight I stick the knife in my checked bags the day before so I don't automatically put it in my pocket at 4AM in the morning by force of habit.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Traveling with a throw away lighter is good, I often find giving it to a arriving flier who had theirs taken away builds up some karma for me at my destination.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[chiefmojorising]

Certain gun parts will cause them to seal luggage in the same way. A barrel, for instance, is a hell of a lot cheaper than the whole firearm, and has to be declared, baggage sealed, etc. Magazines don't count, but frames and internal parts do. I suppose even a spring might technically qualify.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

What masses? I'm pretty sure there are more passengers than flight attendants.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Stay out of NYC airports. If you try to follow the legal procedures to check a firearm, the airlines will call the NYPD and they will haul you a$$ off to jail for not having a NYC firearms license. Even if you come in from out of town just to catch a flight at JFK. Federal law, 18 U.S.C. 926A, 27 CFR 178.38, is supposed to protect citizens in this situation but it is routinely ignored. (I guess it is OK for state/local laws to trump Federal laws in blue states.)

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

the TSA was trying to do the right thing here, but got shouted down by the masses.

I hate this planet.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet wikipedia demote 11 attempts after 9/11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings Stats seem to contradict you. Airplanes higjacking is alive and well.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems the US is going out of it's (way) to drive it's own citizens out of their country, seriously take the hint, likely you'll be better off ;).

Just don't try to go to Brazil. They have enacted special American-only screening in retaliation for TSA abuses of their citizens who travel to the states.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

~ I am quite comfortable saying that we don't need the TSA.

I'm with you. If there was a "Pre-9/11 security" Airline option, I would take it in a heartbeat over being subjected to the Tub Stacking Authority's security theater.

I might even be persuaded to pay a little more for the privilege of not being molested. (Jeebus, I can't believe I said that. WTF happend to my country?)

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[RobertLTux]

the defcon talk on the subject basically advises that you

1 declare anything gun like (including all sorts of Nonfunctioning Replicas)
2 be smooth about it (if you have the funds bribing the Skycap to drop your stuff on his cart works well)
3 use HARD SIDED LUGGAGE WITH REAL LOCKS (no softsided stuff with TSA locks)
4 don't let your LOCKED luggage out of your sight until you get past the TSA luggage check.
5 ring up the airline to see what they say about ammo (some sort of Box and limits as to how much are common)

"yes i do have a 9mm packed with my kids jewelry it just happens that all of my groups luggage has a FireArm in it"

(as it happens the 9mm is my kids anyway but...)

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Migraineman]

The two Spyderco knives they have taken from me would beg to differ.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[houghi]

I have read that people with (expensive) photo or film equipment place a fire pistol in their camera bag and report it as such. The reason is that they don't care about your multi-thousands dollar equipment, but they sure as hell will not want to loose that dangerous legal weapon.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[kaatochacha]

TSA is useless, they don't even follow their own absurd rules. Twice I've managed to get to the airport, forget to remove my small pocketknife from my key-chain, put my key-chain in the x-ray machine, and still have nobody say anything.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[GoogleShill]

Since you decided to use the term "blue state", you should know that these are New York City laws from Guiliani/Bloomberg... Both Republicans.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Dahamma]

Well, you voluntarily hand over the items when you go through security - you always have the option to turn around and walk away.

Not that I agree with the policy, but calling it theft is fairly hyperbolic.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

I carry a small swiss army knife as well, and have the same problem forgetting it in my pocket instead of transferring it to my checked luggage.

The solution I have found is to grab all cables, chargers, headphones etc from your carry on bag, add a mixture of loose change and coins, and pack your knife in a pocket with this mess.

I've successfully carried my knife through the x-ray machines securitychecks 6 of 6 times ( 6 trips, some trips required multiple security checks) . In multiple airports in N America and Europe.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

Also note that the two instances where hijackers 'took control' of the plane, the plane still did not go to the destination the hijackers demanded...

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem isn't the TSA either way. The TSA realizes that the restrictions on small knives and tools are silly and a waste of resources. They wanted to make the change. But they got too much push back from politicians and "think of the children" citizens. So they caved in.

Hence the politicians have violated their oaths to uphold the Bill of Rights. Hence they are now former government officials, or private citizens impersonating government officials, as keeping such oaths is required by the Constitution.

Oh, right, I forget, the Constitution no longer matters. Never mind the clowns that seemed to be impersonating government officials.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[stymy]

Using a proper suitcase also works. It is a joke to open a zipper once you know how (just look it up on youtube). The solution is to use a hard-body suitcase that uses latches, not a zipper. Samsonite makes some nice ones. They are hard to find, and not cheap, but worth the money. Of course, there are still ways to open a suitcase like that, but it's just not worth the trouble for the crooks when they can have their pick from so many other suitcases.

A downside to this is that it will make it more likely for your suitcase to get outright stolen, as opposed to having just some things taken from it, but that's what travel insurance is for. Besides, my credit card offers luggage insurance for free anyways.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jane Q. Public]

"You should mail yourself stuff."

That would be a pretty good idea in some cases. That time, though, I was just going out of town for a couple of days.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jane Q. Public]

"You put an expensive, fragile item in checked luggage?"

It wasn't fragile. And considering that it would not be allowed as a carry-on, it had to go in the luggage.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jane Q. Public]

" don't let your LOCKED luggage out of your sight until you get past the TSA luggage check."

This one won't work in any airport I have been in, since your checked luggage is taken long before you ever see TSA.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jane Q. Public]

"Using a proper suitcase also works."

This is completely irrelevant if you use TSA-approved locks.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[intermodal]

That's not a sure indicator. Sometimes their mouth doesn't move at all while they're lying.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[cthulhu11]

The need to exit security, hit up the kiosk and pay a feed exceeding the value of the item, then return to the back of the long security line limits the utility of these services. That said, who has a legitimate need for a pocketknife on an airplane?

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[RockDoctor]

I've carried a pocket knife since my dad bought me one for my 8th birthday, not having that weight in that pocket doesn't feel right.

This I can understand. I have a "worry stone" - a nice piece of Connemara Marble - which fulfils a similar talismanic role. But it doesn't set off the metal detectors.

My hand-lens, being X-ray dense, caused a huge amount of head scratching at a Canadian airport once. Being a gift from Dad, I was not going to surrender it. It was a peculiarly ignorant gaggle of security people who had never seen one before, but fortunately I had the "worry stone" to demonstrate it's purpose and a sheaf of geological publications in my pocket. The hand-lens goes into the checked baggage now.

I tend to catch flights too early to be properly awake.. Going on vacation again in a couple of weeks, and I'll probably lose another either on the way there or the way back.

Put it into your to-be-put-in-the-hold baggage when you're getting undressed for bed the night before. Problem solved.

I'm trying to think of any occasion that I've flown without checked baggage, ever - and failing. I cannot think of it ever having happened, nor think of a circumstance under which I'd need to do it.

Nope, I can't think of any occasion when I'd not be travelling with hold ("checked" in American English?) baggage. If it's far enough to need to fly - say for a visit to a client - then the 4 hour plus process of getting from my door to the client's door already means that it's worthwhile travelling at civilized hours and overnighting in a hotel. Or, if I go to the national capital, save the hotel cost and spend the night with family nearby ; it saves money and is much nicer. (The regional capital is only 2.5 hours drive away - drive, or take the train. There's only one client based there though.) When I'm holidaying, I've got the walking kit in a rucksac in the hold - and cameras and laptop with me in the cabin. When I'm off to a work site, it's for weeks, and I've got my work equipment in the hold. All cases covered ; I can't see how or why I'd ever be flying without something in the hold.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[RobertLTux]

not if you have a CHECKED FIREARM if you do then the TSA luggage check is done by senior agents.

Now the TSA PASSENGER check is a different matter.

and btw it is Federal LAW that the luggage be properly locked if it has a Firearm.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[Jane Q. Public]

No need to yell.

I know what the law is. And I know about TSA luggage checks. But I also know that in every airport I have been in since the TSA started, luggage was checked in long before the passenger check. So obviously I know the diffference.

But if checked firearms are declared and checked in somewhere other than your other baggage, I didn't know about it, because I haven't done it.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[cusco]

The only time that I ever check baggage is if I am traveling for more than two weeks, or if I'm with my wife. Took half a dozen trips last year, only had to wait for a bag at the carousel once. I've lived out of a backpack for as much as five months at a time, I don't tend to carry much that I don't need (thus a Swiss Army knife rather than a tool kit). If I needed more than a laptop and cables at a remote site it would be different, but I'm lucky.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[EnempE]

About 10 years ago I lost a small voltage test screwdriver on my way to a meeting with security management which was moved en route to a room inside the secure area of the terminal. No way to prepare for that.

That wasn't TSA though, that was their cousins in Australia.

That's a pretty rare case though, those guys are pretty good normally.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[RockDoctor]

Minimum pack for me to go to work is : work's laptop (work data is not allowed on non-work machines ; sacking offence) ; work boots, hardhat, flame resistant coveralls, gloves and chemical gauntlets, safety spectacles and goggles for some operations ; clothes for today ; clothes from yesterday to be lost in the laundry today ; travelling clothes on my body (losing two sets of clothes to the laundry is not unknown, and all the apologies of the laundry staff won't get you the several hundred miles to the nearest shop) ; office-in-a-briefcase supplies (in our contract we specify that a printer which can print PDFs is available at site). Then there are any medications (antimalarials particularly), first aid kit and sewing kit. Then there is any documentation (controlled, numbered paper copies, signed for) for the job. And normally a couple of screwdrivers and a little knife, sometimes a multimeter if I anticipate having to teach sub-contractors how to operate or repair their own machinery (common).

Travelling without baggage is a non-starter, whether I'm going to the deserts (lighter coveralls) or the mountains (add a thick coat.), or to sea.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[thesandtiger]

The person I was responding to said nobody would ever take over a plane again, period.

People have taken over planes since 9/11. It originating from the US or being a US airline is completely irrelevant to the comment I made or the comment I was responding to.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[thesandtiger]

The person I was responding to said that it was impossible to take control of a plane since 9/11, PERIOD. It is not. People have taken control of planes. Whether or not they got what they wanted as a result is not relevant - they took control of the plane in, according to you, at least 2 cases, even if they were arrested on the ground.

The OP didn't make any claims about US airlines or anything else - just that hijackings since 9/11 are impossible PERIOD, which is demonstrably false as you have just agreed.

Re:There goes another Swiss Army knife

[mysidia]

People have taken over planes since 9/11. It originating from the US or being a US airline is completely irrelevant to the comment I made or the comment I was responding to.

Their comment was understood to mean 9/11 had a social effect on people, that would make plain hijackings with a small knife essentially impossible, as passengers would resist and no longer immediately cooperate with all hijackers.

Why would you think that 9/11 would effect the behavior of people in other countries though, particularly people in countries not at risk for an event like 9/11?

US passengers are highly distinct from airline passengers in some other country, where there is minimal risk of terrorism, but maximal risk to the passengers --- especially, that in, most of those cases, the hijackers had weapons and threats far more significant and tangible than some pocketknife.

wonder if

[houbou]

people knew there was a secret society of "spork" wielding master assassins........

Re:wonder if

[mjwx]

people knew there was a secret society of "spork" wielding master assassins........

Fortunately for us they are too busy with their ancient doctrinal conflict with the equally secret society of "foon" wielding corsairs.

Another reason I no longer fly.

[slasher999]

Besides the horrible service and the conditions (ie personal space mostly) on aircraft today, they continue with these absurd bans on common items. I never leave home without a knife, many times a SAK, other times a Spyderco or Queen. To me that would be like leaving home without pants. You just don't think about it, you just do it. When I do need to fly I'm very much aware that I'm without my knife or even the P-38 I keep on my keychain (I'm sure they would figure out how to take that away as well).

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Anonymous Coward]

You keep an airplane on your keychain??!!?? Got me beat. If the knife doesn't work, just strafe 'em.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Intropy]

I had to look that up to figure out why you were trying to take a P-38 Lightning through TSA.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[timmyf2371]

Are conditions really bad enough to stop people flying? Admittedly, I have little experience of flying within the US (although I am returning from SFO to LHR in three weeks so I will get to experience things first hand).

When I fly from the UK (domestic & international), I'm used to turning up no more than 60 mins before the flight leaves - even if I have hold baggage and don't have fast track security. I'm not going to pretend economy seats are the height of luxury, but in general I try to get the front row or an emergency exit seat so I get a bit more legroom and the person in front can't recline. And it's hardly any worse than my morning & evening commute by train - I even get to sit down on the plane.

Is the US airport/flying experience so terrible? Any particular tips I should consider for my flight out of SFO?

On the subject of the article, I'm inclined to agree with this decision. If you need a pocket knife at your destination, check it in the hold. Do you really need it on the plane? Of course, I'm quite happy to admit that there are plenty of other ways to do damage to someone using permitted items - I reckon you could do far more damage with an aerosol deodorant and cigarette lighter.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[slasher999]

I was curious which people would think I meant - the plane or the gun! Nope, just the can opener. But try to explain that to TSA.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Platinumrat]

Well in most Australian states, it's now illegal to carry even a small Swiss Army style keychain knife anywhere, Period.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[0123456]

Are conditions really bad enough to stop people flying?

Um, yes.

I used to fly for fun: when I lived near London I'd fly to New York for a long weekend, for example. But now I only fly when I have to, entirely because of the security theater and its insane and randomly varying rules.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[slasher999]

They really are for various reasons, but I'll say space is my biggest gripe. I had to fly earlier this year - first time in two years. My first leg actually wasn't bad. I'm 6'3" and I go about 350 lbs, so I'm a big guy. I was in the middle seat on a newer United 757 and was relatively comfortable with guys on either side of me. Don't get me wrong, it was cozy but it was tolerable. My return trip however was horrible and I even had an aisle seat with no one in the middle seat next to me. This was an older Continental 737 and was much smaller, even though I paid for "extra leg room". I can't imagine what I would have done if that hadn't been an option. This was a red eye flight (seven hours) and I think I slept for about five minutes total. I woke up almost immediately because I was literally toppling out of the seat into the aisle. If not for my seat belt I would have certainly been on the floor in the aisle. If I had to pay for that flight, well I wouldn't have. Since my employer paid for the base airfare (I only paid the extra leg room part) I took it since I really wanted to attend the conference. Really I should have drove even if I had to take a week off for the drive.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[0123456]

Well in most Australian states, it's now illegal to carry even a small Swiss Army style keychain knife anywhere, Period.

Well, that's Crocodile Dundee fscked then.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[slasher999]

That really blows my mind. I couldn't imagine going around without mine, and I have many to pick from. It's just so handy to have. Car breaks down? Knives come in handy in many ways there. Pet get caught up on your walk and you need to cut a piece of string, rope, etc to free them (this has happened to me)? You need your knife. Open a box? Much easier with a small pocket knife. Bored? We were taught "whittling" in scouts as recently as 30 years ago. I can understand restrictions on switch blades and very large knives (like over 5" blade or over 10" overall) but everyone should be able to carry at least a Small Stockman, which is a small knife with three different blades that does not lock - a "slippie" as we call them, referring to their being of the "slip-joint" variety as opposed to locking, auto opening, fixed blade, etc.

Re: Another reason I no longer fly.

[Mabhatter]

The US travel experience isn't terrible. The problem is that its treated with crazy different rules than any other mass transit.

I have not had problems... BUT... I try to travel in comfortable clothes, and remember to empty metal items into my carry-on bag ahead of time, take off your belt before getting in line, untie your shoes do you don't slow things up, remember to pack the laptop and iPad do they easily unpack and repackage quickly, and keep cords wound up in a separate container, have all that ready the nite before you go to the airport and you will sail through the line!

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Intropy]

Well, if I'm being honest, I assumed you didn't mean the plane and that P-38 must also refer be something small, like a pocket knife. I looked it up and found it was a can opener. I am deeply ashamed that I ever implied that I thought you might actually be carrying around a WW2-era fighter.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Dahamma]

Which is funny considering Paul Hogan managed to convince the rest of the world Australians all walked around with 12" bush knives stuffed down their pants ;)

Re: Another reason I no longer fly.

[starless]

With "TSA-Pre" (which you can get e.g. by signing up for global entry) you can avoid many of
these inconveniences. e.g. you can keep shoes on, keep computer inside bag, keep liquids in bag.
Global entry has other major advantages for international travelers (avoid immigration lines).
http://www.globalentry.gov/

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Jockle]

Are conditions really bad enough to stop people flying?

People's rights are violated when they try to get on a plane. What do you think the answer is?

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Jockle]

I would think rights are important to more people than just Slashdot readers. Is this not the case, or are most people imbeciles, as I often fear?

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[ninlilizi]

Sup Dawg. I heard you like planes. So I put a plane in your plane, so you can fly while you fly.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Richy_T]

It depends on your definition of bad. It's bad enough and annoying but usually not awful. If you fly into the US, avoid any contact with Atlanta airport.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Richy_T]

He convinced me they hang bread on walls and use a blowtorch to make toast.

Re: Another reason I no longer fly.

[Redmancometh]

I usually hate thar meme...but damn did that make me laugh

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[gamanimatron]

Yes, definitely. I personally decided not to make at least eight flights (that I undoubtedly would have made) since they started this stupid crap, and only made the three flights I did because there was no practical way around being physically present outside reasonable driving distance. Of the people I know, I would guess at least half have cancelled or avoided at least one flight they would otherwise have taken recently, representing a significant fraction of their overall travel.

Flying in the U.S. is a godawful degrading experience these days. I remember when it used to be exciting. Frickin' sucks.

Re: Another reason I no longer fly.

[Macgrrl]

So having had a quick look at the requirements, it doesn't apply to those of us who make up the ANZ part of the ANZUS treaty group.

It must be because we had all those criminal and immigrant fore-bearers.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Macgrrl]

Only on special occasions.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[SailorSpork]

I was just impressed that he could fit a Walther P38 on his keychain.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[bored_engineer]

I've always had a p38 on my keychain and never had a problem. One of the TSA folks looked at it once, but that's all the attention that it's ever gotten. I used to fly frequently to DFW from LAX, and have also gone through security in Fairbanks, Salt Lake, San Francisco, Seattle, Denver, Portland, Anchorage and Burbank. (There may be one or two more that I've forgotten.)

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[sjames]

Pssengers in the U,.S. are advised to arrive 3 hours early to make sure they get through security in time.

When I did fly (I refuse to even consider it now unless someone is actually dying) I never checked my bags because those are the ones that end up in Hawaii when you fly to NY abnd then get sold as unclaimed. I can at least know that carry-on bags will go where I go.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[David_Hart]

Are conditions really bad enough to stop people flying? Admittedly, I have little experience of flying within the US (although I am returning from SFO to LHR in three weeks so I will get to experience things first hand).

When I fly from the UK (domestic & international), I'm used to turning up no more than 60 mins before the flight leaves - even if I have hold baggage and don't have fast track security. I'm not going to pretend economy seats are the height of luxury, but in general I try to get the front row or an emergency exit seat so I get a bit more legroom and the person in front can't recline. And it's hardly any worse than my morning & evening commute by train - I even get to sit down on the plane.

Is the US airport/flying experience so terrible? Any particular tips I should consider for my flight out of SFO?

I usually try to show up 2 hours before my flight out of Boston Logon. However, if I fly out of Manchester, New Hampshire (a smaller airport) I only need to be there 45 minutes before the flight.

Flights within the US are crappy unless you are flying first class, business, or on Jet Blue with the extra room seats. Most planes here are way past the point where they need to replace the seats, have ancient in-flight entertainment (i.e. single movie), etc. International flights seem to be better as some have the option of premium coach, similar to the extra room seats on Jet Blue, and almost all have modern entertainment systems, etc.

From the SFO FAQ on the web site:

"SFO suggests that you check with your airline directly for its recommended arrival time. For domestic flights, most airlines suggest arriving two hours before departure. For international flights, most airlines recommend arriving three hours before departure."

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Anonymous Coward]

.. although *that* would be a hijack worth reading about!

"Man hijacks airliner by threatening passengers and crew with a smuggled World War II fighter plane!"

It could make matchwood of the cockpit security doors, and with a maximum speed of over 400mph, this would totally be any hijacker's weapon of choice.

Re: Another reason I no longer fly.

[bickerdyke]

So you're really telling me that we've put up a sometimes ridiciolously strict security system that you simply can skip (at least in parts) by SIGNING UP TO A WEBSITE??

Either shoe-scanning and bottle-ban are important to security, then they should be mandatory or they aren't important al all!

The only thing more stupid would be, if they'd force you to lock your baggae with special locks that anyone can open... oh wait.....

Or making a big fuss about not leaving your suitcase unattended before a flight - just minutes before you're forced to hand over said suitcase to a bunch of people with the authority and the tools to even access your baggage without your consent.

Re: Another reason I no longer fly.

[starless]

So you're really telling me that we've put up a sometimes ridiciolously strict security system that you simply can skip (at least in parts) by SIGNING UP TO A WEBSITE??

Global entry membership requires background check and brief interview. (And membership fee.)
However, TSA Pre is also accessible to e.g. very frequent fliers.
It appears to follow the rationale advocated by some people around here that it's the person who should be considered by security, not the
items that they are carrying.

Re: Another reason I no longer fly.

[bickerdyke]

It appears to follow the rationale advocated by some people around here that it's the person who should be considered by security, not the
items that they are carrying.

It should be a healthy mixture.

I'm a bit sceptical about using background checks here:
Suicide bombers usually don't have a criminal record of being one.

While you probably can gather intelligence on most suspects in advance, for attacking "high profile target", so specifically train (or brainwash or blackmail) a bomber to keep a low profile. I think most suspects ring the alarms of some three letter agency when travelling to an area with a n assumed "terror training camp". Those are fine for training rank terrorists. But if you want to have an "elite terrorist" to even pass a background check, you could do some "homeschooling". Tell him to keep away from meetings and mosques.

If I may remember: The 9/11 terrorists were identified in hindsight only because they didn't use fake passports, gained legit visas to travel to US and Germany, used genuine credit cards to pay for their flight training.

Background checks work be searching for patterns. The more singular something is, the harder it gets to find such patterns.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Anonymous Coward]

I stopped flying after they installed the scanners. My family thinks I'm nuts for driving 16 hours to visit rather than take the 4 hour flight, but then I would have to rent a car, not be able to bring/take home as much stuff, not be able to carry a knife or gun, not have items stolen from my luggage, not be able to bring my own food/drink, and lastly would have to put up with the several hours fascist BS security just to have the pleasure sitting in cramped seating next to or worse between two, overweight mouthbreathers (aka the public).

I see the extra time as the cost to maintain my freedom. The day the TSA starts setting up mandatory checkpoints on the highway to infringe on that too will mark the first day of the next civil war.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[kaatochacha]

If you arrive one hour before your flight out of SFO, your flight will leave without you.
I'd suggest 2.5, possibly 3.
Seriously, I'm not joking.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[kaatochacha]

"You call that a knife? Now THIS is a knife" (Pulls out toothpick)

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[david_thornley]

But just think how cool it would be if he was!

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's mostly just fucking annoyance. Any pussy who says they won't fly has been sucking on his momma's teets for too many years and needs to get out in the world and visit a 3rd world country to know what real suffering. That said, it's all theater and none of this is stopping any terrorist activity, when they said they would screen everyone for explosives and keep the pilots locked up during the duration of the flight, that ended the 911 problems. This is all that's really required but they like to get us used to constant observation and vetting to increase the sheeple to people ratio.

Re: Another reason I no longer fly.

[Anonymous Coward]

It should be a healthy mixture.

Or we could just destroy the TSA and not become paranoid freedom-haters. Freedom is far more important than safety.

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[Jockle]

Any pussy who says they won't fly has been sucking on his momma's teets for too many years and needs to get out in the world and visit a 3rd world country to know what real suffering.

Those things called rights? Who cares about them!? The constitution? Just a worthless piece of paper, and anyone who complains is just a wimp.

Oh, and if I punch you in the face, you have no right to complain because I could've broken your arm instead!

Re:Another reason I no longer fly.

[marka63]

It's illegal to carry a knife without a valid excuse. There is no "Period". It is not a absolute prohibition.

"For protection", however, is not a valid excuse.

No surprise really

[dkleinsc]

If they allowed knives back on, and any kind of terrorist attack occurred with knives, then someone would be held responsible for that decision, no matter how wise it seemed at the time. If they disallow knives, people will kick and scream, but won't actually change their flying behavior much, and everyone's job will be safe.

Re:No surprise really

[Nerdfest]

I'll take responsibility for it. It will have about as much effect as trying to pin the responsibility for the decision on any government official.

Re:No surprise really

[Black Parrot]

If they allowed knives back on, and any kind of terrorist attack occurred with knives, then someone would be held responsible for that decision, no matter how wise it seemed at the time.

If they allowed little knives on planes, and someone was foolish enough to try to hijack the plane with one, they would arrive at the next airport as a pile of thinly sliced pieces.

IMO they should allow anything that won't endanger the integrity of the cabin.

Re:No surprise really

[hawguy]

If they allowed knives back on, and any kind of terrorist attack occurred with knives, then someone would be held responsible for that decision, no matter how wise it seemed at the time. If they disallow knives, people will kick and scream, but won't actually change their flying behavior much, and everyone's job will be safe.

Be serious - TSA is a government agency, there's no such thing as holding someone accountable.

Re:No surprise really

[Jockle]

Why don't imbeciles just realize that sometimes bad things happen, and freedom is more important than safety? The TSA needs to be destroyed.

Re:No surprise really

[Jockle]

IMO they should allow anything that won't endanger the integrity of the cabin.

Actually, the TSA should just be eliminated outright. Problem solved.

Re:No surprise really

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly! We should all be able to carry a pocket knife on board because they're not dangerous, but if someone tried to hijack the plane then they would become dangerous and suddenly capable of turning a mission-oriented terrorist with a weapon into "a pile of thinly sliced pieces".

Terrorism aside, do I really want some drunken asshole who's been on a plane for the past 6 hours having any kind of knife? Flying can be stressful and the fewer ways there are for some stressed out, pissed up prick to kill another person, the better.

Thirdly, your "anything that won't endanger the integrity of the cabin" schtick is great, but why? Do you really need a hockey stick on a plane? Gonna practice your slapshots up and down the aisle are ya? Or a pocket knife? Really? Gonna whittle a whistle outta some nice hickory? Awesome. Or maybe, just maybe, you don't really need to take those things into the cabin with you...

Re:No surprise really

[Anonymous Coward]

If they allowed knives back on, and any kind of terrorist attack occurred with knives, then someone would be held responsible for that decision, no matter how wise it seemed at the time. If they disallow knives, people will kick and scream, but won't actually change their flying behavior much, and everyone's job will be safe.

But more than 3oz of fluids? Fuck no, THAT discussion isn't even on the table. People might drown!

Re:No surprise really

[cusco]

My co-worker is ranked #17 in 8-ball in the US. He can't take his expensive pool cue in its case on board the plane, instead he has to check it and pray that it makes it to Las Vegas.

Re:No surprise really

[Mr. Freeman]

It's the aviation equivalent of no one ever got fired for buying cisco.

Re:No surprise really

[Jockle]

Terrorism aside, do I really want some drunken asshole who's been on a plane for the past 6 hours having any kind of knife?

It doesn't matter what you want. I might not want you to carry any water bottles on the plane because it stresses me out for unknown reasons, but that doesn't mean I should be able to have it stolen from you or some other such nonsense.

Re:No surprise really

[canadiannomad]

What I would like to see for things like pocket knives is "mini-checked in luggage."

If you have less then a handful of items that would normally need to be checked in, you should be able to leave them with a stewart and grab them on your way out as if they were somewhere between checked-in luggage and carry-on.

I remember on my last flight I had carry-on luggage for must of my gear, but for my swiss-army knife and my med-kit I had a small fanny-pack sized bag that I had to check in... They changed me $20 for the privilege.

Re:No surprise really

[Winchy]

is he Jose Villar? http://www.upatour.com/8-ball-rankings/

Re:No surprise really

[Anonymous Coward]

This really emphasizes the one-way tendencies of restrictive policy. It's MUCH easier for a government to take something "dangerous" away than to give it back.

Re:No surprise really

[LMariachi]

Cue cases are too long for carry-on anyway.

Re:No surprise really

[cusco]

Should have said 'amateur', I guess. Not positive he current ranking, but that's what he ended last year at.

Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ...

[pissoncutler]

Instead of making folks discard completely non-threatening items, TSA should look into *actual* security.

The airport should have a series of series of checkpoints. Every vehicle that pulls onto the property goes past a guard that asks you how your day is going (screen #1). At the ticket counter, a friendly agent asks if you are enjoying the weather (screen #2). Drop off your bags, some other random, friendly question (screen #3). Lastly, at the x-ray / metal detector / body scanner, the attending agent looks you in the eye and chats with you again (screen #4). Every station should be manned by trained security personel empowered to flag you for greater scrutiny. Add to that randomized patrols and searches.

The staged checkpoints also reduce the likelihood of an attacker targeting that massive line to get through security. (In the TSA system, no one waiting in that line has been through any prior screen.)

Stagger the checks and ensure redundancy. It's not cheap, it would require TSA to hire/pay much better than they do now, but it would get you better security. Banning Swiss Army Knives and hockey sticks doesn't make anyone safer.

Liquids?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just pocket knives, they're saying no changes, which means no changes to liquids either. I wonder how much the airlines make on $7 liquor and beer and how much the airport merchants make on $4 sodas and if that has anything to do with it.

Truck driver

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to fly constantly to transfer trucks of all kinds and before 911, I always had a very large lock blade on my belt at all times, including when flying. Now that I can't carry it for personal protection, I am no longer flying.

Doesn't affect me so I don't care

[Spy Handler]

I don't carry knives, don't even like them. I use spears.

Re:Doesn't affect me so I don't care

[Black Parrot]

And Wolverine eschews air travel.

Don't relax the security sphincter now!

[Anonymous Coward]

If folks start feeling safe again it will only make it harder to impose new regulations in the future.

Besides, why give up ground already gained?

Why did I lose my rights?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in an airport with a souvenir I got over vacation. I accidentally forgot I placed it in my bag and tried to go through security. Why is it that my proximity to the gate suddenly stripped me of my rights? A police officer came to "contain" the situation, although he didn't do much because I wasn't making a fuss. Why wasn't I ever asked to just walk away with all my belongings? I was at the airport 2 hours before my flight was scheduled to depart, that is plenty of time to go back to the front desk and check my bag. Why is it that I was stripped of my rights to my belongings and denied the ability to take what I came with and leave. Granted I attempted to go through security with an item, so my name was put on an ever growing list of potential terrorists. Fine. But why don't they change fucked up policies like these before allowing knives on a plane? Most airports even have built in shipping offices, I could have just mailed the souvenir to my home address, but I was never given the chance.

Re:Why did I lose my rights?

[Agent0013]

I was in an airport with a souvenir I got over vacation. I accidentally forgot I placed it in my bag and tried to go through security. Why is it that my proximity to the gate suddenly stripped me of my rights? A police officer came to "contain" the situation, although he didn't do much because I wasn't making a fuss. Why wasn't I ever asked to just walk away with all my belongings? I was at the airport 2 hours before my flight was scheduled to depart, that is plenty of time to go back to the front desk and check my bag. Why is it that I was stripped of my rights to my belongings and denied the ability to take what I came with and leave. Granted I attempted to go through security with an item, so my name was put on an ever growing list of potential terrorists. Fine. But why don't they change fucked up policies like these before allowing knives on a plane? Most airports even have built in shipping offices, I could have just mailed the souvenir to my home address, but I was never given the chance.

Why is it you didn't stand up for your rights? If you let them be taken from you, then you didn't really value them very much.

My CarryOn-Jutsu is Stronger than Yours

[decipher_saint]

"Sir please remove your arms and legs, you can't take them on the plane"

Re:My CarryOn-Jutsu is Stronger than Yours

[RussR42]

Oh, oh, I see! Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you! I'll bite your legs off!

Re:My CarryOn-Jutsu is Stronger than Yours

[roman_mir]

Also, I don't know if they realise it, pretty much every person sneaks a biological vector attack onto the plane right in their underpants, and I am not talking about bombs, well, not the kind that explode, well, not the kind that explode with shrapnel, well, not with anything made of metal (almost never).

Re:My CarryOn-Jutsu is Stronger than Yours

[gl4ss]

"Sir please remove your arms and legs, you can't take them on the plane"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_Fall_Off_Boy

Obama

[SnarfQuest]

Obama recently stated that the War on Terror was over, since we killed Al-Qaeda's .leaders, and that the terrorist threat was over. Since the TSA, and Homeland Security, are designed to protect us from terrorists, are they needed any more?

Re:Obama

[Lumpy]

The war on the american people started on 9/12 IT was started by the Bush administration and the Obama Administration is working hard to continue the war.
9/11 was used as an excuse to trample on those pesky rights, and the people were stupid and soaked it up. Sadly, most americans are still ragingly stupid and are happy about all the rights that were lost.

Re:Obama

[bickerdyke]

I learned enough about terror prevention by simply listening to Major Kira on Deep Space Nine to know that such an organisation is designed to work without leaders.

Just a test

[Anonymous Coward]

To see if the public was alienated enough aleady to protest against a bit of reasonable liberty.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Or live with the tiny tiny risk that there will be a terrorist attack on your plane and keep the doors locked, which means they cant take over the plane, at most they can kill everybody on board. Which is of course a bad thing, but its more likely that the plane will simply crash and kill everybody than that a terrorist inside would kill everybody.
A metal scanner really is all you need in most cases.

X-actly

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Well, hockey sticks and the other stuff should be fine. Actually small knives would be, too.

Prior to 9/11, the policy for a skyjacking was sit tight and wait for ransom demands, or to fly some idiot to Cuba.

That morning it changed forever. Passengers will revolt. Pilots will bounce people around in the cabin. Threats to kill people will correctly go unheeded and the cockpit door will stay closed. Even flights with insufficient other passengers still won't lose control.

So...so what about small knives and X-acto box cutters? Such a takeover will never work again.

Re:X-actly

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to tell you how embarrassingly pathetic most Americans are these days. Haven't you heard the stories of some guy shooting up the place and every one just sits there watching him reload before executing the more of them? We're all taught not to defend ourselves against any thing, not to violent psychos killing us or the psychos stripping rights and dignity. Just turn in your weapons/rights and hope some one will help you.

Re:X-actly

[westlake]

Prior to 9/11, the policy for a skyjacking was sit tight and wait for ransom demands
  Threats to kill people will correctly go unheeded and the cockpit door will stay closed. Even flights with insufficient other passengers still won't lose control.

You are assuming that everyone who puts a knife to the throat of a hostage is a political terrorist -- that they are behaving "rationally" in the pursuit of some definable political objective.

The cockpit door may remain closed, but a flight attendant may be killed, and others may die.

How many such casualties are you prepared to accept? How many such casualties will a flight crew be prepared to accept?

The calculus of death is easy to accept when you are sitting behind a desk in Washington.

Not so much when it is measured by the cameras focusing on the fourteen year old girl bleeding to death in the aisles just beyond your reach,

Re:X-actly

[KFW]

Good thing no terrorist can afford to fly first class where they still have metal utensils with meals. And good think no terrorist would think to bring aboard a duty-free liquor bottle they could smash into a sharp weapon. Good thing that the scissors, screwdrivers, canes, high heels, stems of eyeglasses, etc., etc. people are allowed to bring on board couldn't possibly hurt anyone. Good thing the TSA has protected all of us from all possible harm on flights with their wise and discerning policies. /K

Re:X-actly

[Lumpy]

"How many such casualties are you prepared to accept? "

all of them, because if you open the door then all of them plus others on the ground will die. The pilots have far more control than the terrorist with a knife could ever hope for. Inverted flight will spoil his plans quickly. Hell even a rapid decent or simply hitting the airbrakes and decelerating rapidly will make everyone not in their seat fly foreward rapidly and bash their head in.

As a pilot the first thing I would do is put the plane into an extremely steep dive and hit the air brakes to decelerate rapidly while the co pilot declares an emergency to ATC and we land at the nearest airport.

Re:X-actly

[cervesaebraciator]

How many such casualties are you prepared to accept?

This seems a wise question until you apply it to any other sphere of life. Then perhaps you can see that it could be used to justify anything. Household knives are often used in domestic disputes. How many casualties are you willing to accept? Drunk driving leads to many deaths, but alcohol can be bought in public places from which people drive. How many casualties are you willing to accept? I can guarantee that fires sparked by household wiring has killed more people than Swiss Army Knives on planes. How many casualties are you willing to accept? Not so many when they are measured by the cameras which film a burning house containing a four year old girl dying by fire.

It is an unhelpful question--a rhetorical flourish really which attempts to set up a false dilemma rather than have a serious conversation--because it does not allow for the honest evaluation of risks relative to other risks we accept in everyday life. It advances rather that if you disagree, you must willing to accept the [emotionally affecting statement here, such as the brutal death of an innocent] for the sake of your [in comparison relatively small convenience, such as the ability to cut string with a Swiss Army Knife]. Let's have a more honest discussion than that.

Re:X-actly

[Anonymous Coward]

So a couple people get knifed on an airplane. What's to stop them from doing this on the ground, with guns or explosives? The whole point of the TSA is to prevent terrorists from taking over a plane.

Re:X-actly

[PPH]

How many such casualties are you prepared to accept?

The same number as occurred before 9-11. I don't seem to recall too many instances of passengers going bonkers and slicing people up back when box cutters and pocket knives were a non-issue.

Re:X-actly

[PPH]

Maybe while shots are being fired. But bystanders tacked Jared Loughner when he tried to reload during the 2011 incident Tucson AZ.

Re:X-actly

[Mr. Freeman]

"How many such casualties are you prepared to accept? How many such casualties will a flight crew be prepared to accept?"

Everyone on the plane. Why? Because if that plane falls into the hands of the terrorists then it can be used as a weapon to kill even more people. It's better for a fully-loaded plane full of people to die than for a fully-loaded plane full of people *and* more people to die.

Hell, most pilots would even be willing to crash the plane into an empty piece of land if the terrorists manage to start breaching the cockpit door. Again, that outcome, although tragic, is far better than allowing even more people to die.

Re:X-actly

[Jockle]

How many such casualties are you prepared to accept? How many such casualties will a flight crew be prepared to accept?

It's clear that you have no love for freedom. Why? It almost seems like you're willing to trade it for security (or security theater, as is the case with the TSA).

Re:X-actly

[Anonymous Coward]

How many such casualties are you prepared to accept? How many such casualties will a flight crew be prepared to accept?

I know you're asking that as a rhetorical question, but you forget that you're asking it in Slashdot's comment section. All the solipsistic libertarians here would quickly and unflinchingly answer that with "as many as needed, so long as it's not ME, obviously, and so long as nobody ever tells ME what to do ever again, ever".

Re:X-actly

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Let's not forget all the crap the TSA misses. I would add to your list belts, especially those thick leather ones with a nice heavy buckle.

Re:X-actly

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

All the solipsistic libertarians here would quickly and unflinchingly answer that with "as many as needed, so long as it's not ME, obviously, and so long as nobody ever tells ME what to do ever again, ever".
I see your strawman, and raise one in your image, I shall call him crypto-totalitarian for all must be ready to bow down before the state, they know what is best. Right, tovarich? or is Juche more your thing?

Re:X-actly

[rastos1]

It's easy to talk about sacrificing one's life. For those that did not. And it's difficult to imagine what it is like based on stories of those that did.

Sudden outbreak

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, let's tackle all kinds of imaginary goblins while allowing the very tool used by the actual goblins back in. Even the TSA wasn't crazy enough to let on something that was similar to what was actually used. Although I understand they weren't actually going to allow boxcutters, what is that but a small blade? Oh, and the bit about it having to be a singing blade not fixed... like they couldn't carry something else that allowed the blade to be fixed.

This is just crazy. Next thing you know, they'll be analyzing the actual security weaknesses that were exploited on 9-11-2001 and plugging them. Nahhh.... that's crazy talk.

Re:Sudden outbreak

[jgordon7]

They were not going to ALLOW any blade that locks. Note box cutters lock. If you have ever used a knife, a locking mechanism is what makes a knife safe to use. A knife without a locking blade is almost always more dangerous to the wielder than the foe. Only thing a non-locking knife is good for is cutting apples.

OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[whoever57]

why do restaurants after security at Chicago O'Hare give customers metal knives, while restaurants at DFW do not?

And in the past, I have been given a metal knife when flying in first class (obviously, first class passengers cannot be terrorists!)

Do TSA rules ban equipment to sharpen metal dinner knives? I doubt it.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[R3d M3rcury]

And in the past, I have been given a metal knife when flying in first class (obviously, first class passengers cannot be terrorists!)

First, I'm kind of curious when this happened? I haven't flown in a sufficiently high class since 9/11, but I remember when airlines used to give you hot food. I don't know if they still do or not--it may depend on how far you're going and which airline you're using.

That said, first class passengers are not terrorists because terrorists are frugal. Remember the guys who tried to blow up the World Trade Center using a truck bomb and then went back for the deposit on the tuck? And none of the 9/11 Terrorists flew first class because why spend the extra money if you're going to crash or blow up the plane?

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[aXis100]

Even business class will give you metal knives and real glassware.

Not that it matters, the plastic knives they give the cattle class can still do plenty of damage, I'm sure you could make a real mess of someone's throat with one.

Farking security theatre.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that the entire service and food delivery staff and equipment don't even use the lines checked by TSA. That metal bagel cart isn't going through X-Ray or bodyscanners, or even a metal detector. The tarmac security is *completely* different from the "front door" security. You just need a badge to swipe in to enter the tarmac, and the badge swipes in again to open the service entrance of the airport, and you can haul in your giant metal bagel booth with whatever you want inside. The thing is, the airports see vendors as their bosses, because vendors pay the airport for floor space, and they will do anything that puts in jeopardy that revenue stream. By contrast, passengers pay the airlines not the airport, so the airport couldn't give two rats asses about the happiness of passengers.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[whoever57]

First, I'm kind of curious when this happened?

About 4 or 5 years ago, definitely after 9/11. I think that the last time I flew in domestic first class on American, they gave me plastic knives, but I dont remember clearly.

And none of the 9/11 Terrorists flew first class because why spend the extra money if you're going to crash or blow up the plane?

They would fly first if it were essential to their plans.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the TSA ban sharpening stones?

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[Lumpy]

I was at DFW recently and ate a steak with a nice sharp Steak knife inside of the security zone.

TSA security is theater only to keep the panicky low IQ crowd happy.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[Anonymous Coward]

Happened to me in Baltimore too. After security I ate a meat dish at a restaurant. They served it with steak knives. I shook my head when I saw it. But my smaller Swiss army knife is forbidden. Shows that airport security is handled by idiots.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[QuasiSteve]

the plastic knives they give the cattle class can still do plenty of damage, I'm sure you could make a real mess of someone's throat with one.

This can very much be the truth. One flight I was on (United) had plastic knives to cut the chicken with, but was sharp enough to cut not only through the chicken, but through the aluminum container, and gashed the tray when the person next to me bumped into my arm. While it was nowhere near as sharp as an xacto blade, it was much sharper than my own general food-cutting cutlery, while also being much more serrated. On the other hand, on a BA flight, the cutlery was blunt enough to require a ridiculous amount of force (relatively speaking) to pick anything up with the fork, never mind the almost completely useless knives.

I did also get metal cutlery one time, still in 'cattle class', wasn't particularly noteworthy in terms of sharp/bluntness. I don't remember which carrier that was, though.. might have been AA.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[mjwx]

why do restaurants after security at Chicago O'Hare give customers metal knives, while restaurants at DFW do not?

Singapore Airlines gives you metal knives in economy class.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[dlgeek]

And none of the 9/11 Terrorists flew first class because why spend the extra money if you're going to crash or blow up the plane?

Uhhh, dude... all but one of the 9/11 Hijackers flew first or business class (mostly first) on their various flights.

• AA 11
• United 175
• AA 77
• United 93

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[loneDreamer]

I always wonder about soda cans. It should not be too difficult to create a slashing implement with them...

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[David_Hart]

And in the past, I have been given a metal knife when flying in first class (obviously, first class passengers cannot be terrorists!)

First, I'm kind of curious when this happened? I haven't flown in a sufficiently high class since 9/11, but I remember when airlines used to give you hot food. I don't know if they still do or not--it may depend on how far you're going and which airline you're using.

That said, first class passengers are not terrorists because terrorists are frugal. Remember the guys who tried to blow up the World Trade Center using a truck bomb and then went back for the deposit on the tuck? And none of the 9/11 Terrorists flew first class because why spend the extra money if you're going to crash or blow up the plane?

I thought that this was funny too. I was traveling to France for a Corporate meeting. I met with some of my co-workers at a restaurant in the airport before the flight and they gave us metal forks and spoons to eat with but the knife was silver colored plastic. However, on the flight, in Business Class, they gave us solid silverware, including a metal knife, for our meal.

Re:OK, TSA, please tell me why...

[Anonymous Coward]

Bought a plastic knife recently, those things can be very sharp. With plastic knives and guns becoming common I wonder if there's still a point in using metal detectors.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[White Flame]

Every station should be manned by trained security personel empowered to flag you for greater scrutiny.

The TSA seems to love spending money on everything but actually training their personnel to be properly security-conscious and informed. Having some of the lowest entry requirements relative to pay scale of any job in the country doesn't help either.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[CRCulver]

What you are describing is exactly what you get when you fly out of Ben Gurion. However, in spite of the success of the Israeli approach to airport security, it may not scale to the huge flight volumes of, say, Atlanta or LAX, and regrettably the TSA wants the same approach at all airports.

Bad Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a given that bad guys can sneak knives onboard without much trouble. Therefore it would be a benefit if the law abiding public had at least a fighting chance against them.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[pissoncutler]

I agree, but what we have now is both a sham and an inconvenience. Real security isn't an absolute, and it's the inverse of convenience.

Security theater...

[Darkness404]

Security theater at its finest. The reason why there hasn't been 9/11 part II is not because of the TSA, instead its been because prior to 9/11 whenever an airplane was hijacked, the standard procedure was to keep a low profile, wait until your plane landed and the hijacker to make their demands and try not to piss off the hijacker, then the feds will storm the plane and light up the hijacker in a hail of bullets and so long as you kept a low profile you'd make it out alive. Today though, everyone associates hijacking with 9/11 and so people are going to be much more willing to fight when they think that their alternative isn't landing in Cuba but instead running into a skyscraper.

Instead, all the TSA has done is make ordinary passengers feel like criminals, damage the profitability of airlines and generally make it a pain to fly in US airspace.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[0123456]

How many terrorists have the Israelis caught at airports?

I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, but I don't remember them doing so any time in the last couple of decades.

Re: Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy .

[Mabhatter]

It's the "Disney" approach. If you go to Disney, they break up the long lines with spaces, corridors, and choke points. Disney does this so it doesn't appear you are in a crazy long line for teacups. But it would work for security too.

Then you insert various detectors along the moving sidewalks and other places in the airport where "single file" lines naturally occur. The biggest thing is to have lots of "helper" agents in the middle looking with eyeballs.

The problem is that our airports were built like shopping malls, intended to be a destination to pickup/ drop off people and have dinner, etc. they have few "compartments" to their designs for the passenger spaces.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, that's such a load of crap I'd sooner advocate for everyone flying naked.

Hijacking airplanes is done. Any attempt will result in dead hijackers and maybe some other injuries or deaths. Worst case scenario, 20 hijackers make it onto a more or less empty flight, overpower or slay the other passengers, somehow get into the cockpit before the pilot can crash or land the plane... the military blows it out of the sky. 9/11 isn't happening again during the lifetime of anyone old enough to remember it.

Are the TSA lines themselves a target? Possibly. Probably more so for disgruntled home-grown terrorists than the kind that managed 9/11. But your system doesn't really fix that. It just pushes it outside of the airport. People will still be sitting ducks in their cars. Protects a little better against bombs, sure, but remember the beltway snipers? Ten guys with sniper rifles could kill a lot of people and they don't even have to die (and maybe not even get caught for awhile - allowing them to kill some more).

No. We already have "actual" security. It's the lock on the cockpit door. It's the breaking up of groups like Al Qaeda.

What we need at the airports is screening done by the airlines. Make them liable for any fuck ups and they'll find a good balance between inconvenience and security or they'll go out of business (if we let them - can't bail them out, damn it).

145 idiotic House members

[Anonymous Coward]

I just want to know exactly who those 145 idiots are.

Real Solution to Security on Airplanes (humor)

[slasher999]

Archie had this figured out in 1974 or so. A classic from American TV history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[CRCulver]

There have bene high-profile busts like the Hindawi affair, and after that, the rigorous screening in place does a pretty good job of discouraging anyone from attacking flights to/from Israel.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[CRCulver]

I forgot to mention that screening on flights to Israel has also succeeded in preventing the boarding of actists who, though they would not attack the plane, would cause damage once they've landed in Israel. That is, the screening is also designed to stop activists who, though they themselves refrain from engaging in violence, want to go to the West Bank to agitate for violent Palestinian resistance.

The terrorists won ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... again.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Anonymous Coward]

So what happens when the body of the plane is taken over and the pilot is told that if he doesn't let the hijackers into the cabin they'll kill every passanger slowly and in the most possibly painful manner?

sigh...

[sribe]

The pathetic pansies won this round...

Oh well

[darkfeline]

There goes my knife. And my pen. And my glasses. And my belt. And my teeth. And my finger- and toenails. It's been said many, many times, but sooner or later perhaps the TSA will realize that people are potential security risks and ban everyone altogether.

On a less ranting and more constructive note, when were small knives banned? I recall back in the day of airport security small knives with blades less than, oh, I don't know, six inches? were allowed.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[aXis100]

The pilot radios the nearest airport, lands, and the SWAT team takes over?

yet

[Anonymous Coward]

Bic pens, which can be just as lethal if you really are determined to hurt someone, are fine.

You got a vote, so stop complaining

[Kohath]

It's OK for the government to take away your freedom. Because you got a vote. Slashdot commenters say so.

If the government weren't oppressing you, then some corporation running the airlines might enact a reasonable policy instead, without consulting you at all. This way, you got a vote. See how great that worked out? You all remember voting for the TSA, right?

To anyone who's complaining about this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is carrying a knife on your person on a flight so damn important? Can you not go without whittling for the length of your flight?

Re:To anyone who's complaining about this...

[PPH]

If I'm checking some luggage, its a non-issue*. But if I'm traveling light and could have made the trip with carry-on alone, now I've got to check a piece of luggage regardless.

*Except for the TSA weasels that will be opening my checked luggage to swipe my Leatherman.

Misssing the point.

[westlake]

What worries the stewardess is the out-if-control passenger with a knife.

The flight crew may be safe behind their armored door.

But she is out there, utterly exposed --- and you are wedged in your seat five rows back and in no position to help her.

The TSA weaved and bobbed around answering the question of how many casualties it was prepared to accept in an incident like this --- and that in the end was fatal.

Re:Misssing the point.

[chrismcb]

The TSA weaved and bobbed around answering the question of how many casualties it was prepared to accept in an incident like this --- and that in the end was fatal.

Probably just as many as they've had over the past few years. Ignoring the fact that if you wanted to get a sharp device on a place, you can easily do so. Look at how many people accidentally left a large knife in their carryon... And look at all the dead stewardesses we have because of it...
Or look at all the bus driver killings we've had over the years.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[pissoncutler]

I didn't just invent this model, it's used at Ben Gurion in Tel Aviv.

The checkpoint screens take a few seconds each, they aren't reading you a long prepared statement and checking to see if you respond yes or no. They are looking you in the eye and asking you about your day; they are trained to pick up on your reaction and filter through lots of people quickly. This doesn't move the line outside the airport, as you suggest, it divides the crowds into smaller pools of potential victims and creates "rings" of security. If a terrorist detonates a bomb in the outermost ring, they will likely take out themselves, the security officer and maybe the vehicles immediately adjacent. Worst case, 10-15 people MAX. If the same terrorist makes it to the security line on a holiday weekend, how many people are within the blast radius? I think 10-15 would be a minimum.

As I said in response to the comment above, I'm more of the opinion that the risk/reward equation for a terrorist attack on an airport has shifted and the September 11th attacks would be very difficult to replicate. The passengers on three of those planes assumed (like we all did) that hijackers just wanted money, or to make a speech and that smartest move was to let the authorities deal with it. No one will make that mistake again.

Today's terrorists (homegrown or otherwise) want to maximise casualties, and leave the speeches to be found after the fact. The best way to handle this is to screen and isolate, or to accept that such attacks represent such a statistical minority of deaths from violent crime and spend our security money elsewhere.

Kirpans?

[Anonymous Coward]

More headaches for Khalsa Sikhs unless that question was not affected by this flip-flop.

Pack rats.

[pubwvj]

This is just greed by the government to collect all those little items. They're like pack rats.

Sucks, but this is the new America

[GodfatherofSoul]

I have a leatherman that is *awesome*. It's one of those tools you'd love to have with you 24/7 because it's so versatile. But, I wouldn't trust myself to get into the habit of carrying it around and risk the danger of taking it through some checkpoint and getting arrested for attempted terrorism.

Re:Sucks, but this is the new America

[bussdriver]

I used to take mine everywhere INCLUDING on the jets; before 9-11.
Nothing was needing to be done; after that mess, nobody is going to give in to hijackers again. I would like to see what is done after a group does it with their bare hands... then we'll all have to be handcuffed to our seats.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[I'm New Around Here]

What are the chances that a plane carrying 100 terrorists gets off the ground? Because that would be the number needed to hijack a plane carrying 200 total passengers.

You may end up with a bunch of dead passengers, but you will end up with 100 dead terrorists too.

And since there would never be a full plane half full of terrorists, we don't have to worry about it.

Re: Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy .

[Anonymous Coward]

It better be a lot of terrorists if they expect to keep control of a plane full of hostages and not get beat you death with their own torn off arms.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Joce640k]

Instead of making folks discard completely non-threatening items, TSA should look into *actual* security.

The airport should have a series of series of checkpoints. Every vehicle that pulls onto the property goes past a guard that asks you how your day is going (screen #1). At the ticket counter, a friendly agent asks if you are enjoying the weather (screen #2). Drop off your bags, some other random, friendly question (screen #3). Lastly, at the x-ray / metal detector / body scanner, the attending agent looks you in the eye and chats with you again (screen #4). Every station should be manned by trained security personel empowered to flag you for greater scrutiny.

The terrorists can just pop a couple of Xanax before they go through - suppress their emotional response.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Joce640k]

So what happens when the body of the plane is taken over and the pilot is told that if he doesn't let the hijackers into the cabin they'll kill every passanger slowly and in the most possibly painful manner?

How is that worse than flying it into a building full of people?

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Joce640k]

How many terrorists have the Israelis caught at airports?

I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, but I don't remember them doing so any time in the last couple of decades.

They sat an air-marshal next to the shoe bomber because they didn't like the look of him. Nothing happened on that flight.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Joce640k]

Anti-anxiety meds work very well against somebody "looking you in the eye".

Another TSA reminder

[lexsird]

Another TSA reminder that the "terrorist won" or I should say the opportunistic fear mongering traitors and the bureaucracies, and traitorous policies they implemented won. Every time I'm reminded of these pseudo Nazi pricks stripping and frisking my 70 year old mother and fucking up her luggage as they rifled it while on one of their "show my ass because I have authority" power trips, I have to edit what I say lest I end up in Gitmo. Imagine that, being afraid to say what you really think in America.

Re:Another TSA reminder

[Anonymous Coward]

[...] the "terrorist won" [...] the opportunistic fear mongering traitors [...] bureaucracies [...] traitorous policies [...] pseudo Nazi pricks stripping and frisking my 70 year old mother [...] fucking up her luggage [...] power trips [...] Gitmo [...] afraid to say what you really think in America.

Hmm, hmm, that's a... decent first draft, but I'm certain you can increase the density of dogmatic buzzphrases considerably. Have you considered reducing it to one sentence? You're definitely not up to the levels of "mentally impaired schizophrenic street preacher" we're used to around these parts, but with a few years of training, you might make it.

It was nothing but a head-fake.

[jcr]

The whole point of this was to deflect attention from the gate rape and the porno scanners. The TSA is a government agency, and it will never voluntarily back down from any of the stupid and pointless bullshit they impose on the traveling public.

-jcr

TSA

[Anonymous Coward]

TSA: Around the clock, around the globe: Teaching American how to be subjects rather that citizens.

Bastards.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[tftp]

I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, but I don't remember them doing so any time in the last couple of decades.

Sometimes rocks actually repel tigers. In this case a terrorist makes a dry run and determines that he won't be able to smuggle anything dangerous. So he directs his efforts elsewhere.

Similarly, if the border wall is 100 feet tall, painted, and has no scratches on it, it doesn't mean that the wall serves no purpose. One doesn't need to try to climb such a wall to understand that it's impossible for 99.99% of the population.

Re:Need footage of this!

[daremonai]

That is one video I am not watching.

We might all wear a turbin...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, no weapons, or even a tone wand that could be used as one (or so they said). We would NEVER want to allow US citizens to prevent terrorists from crashing a plane into US interests now would we, we must march on in our original decision that the terrorists won on 9/11. Go get em brain trust.

Re: Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy .

[Mr. Freeman]

This is a very widely understood phenomenon. In countries where terrorism is actually a problem, terrorists bomb the checkpoints because of the lines. Security thus staggers the checkpoints and streamlines procedures in order to prevent any kind of lines from forming. This means that terrorists can't kill more than a few people regardless of the size of any bomb they might be carrying.

Here in the USA, these procedures are not used and checkpoints are not bombed because, as all sane people know, terrorism is not a problem in this country.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[sjames]

Do a few barrel rolls while reporting the incident and getting clearance for the neaqrest airport?

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[ColdWetDog]

We go through this on every TSA related post: Israel has one or two (depending on how you define it) International airports. It's the size of New Jersey. They explicitly do racial profiling.

The Israeli experience isn't germane to the US.

Osama Bin Manicure

[Anonymous Coward]

The silliest is the ban on nail clippers. OH NO! It's Osama Bin Manicure! My fingernails are too short I can't fly the plane!!!! BANG!!

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[dlsmith]

Instead of making folks discard completely non-threatening items, TSA should look into *actual* security.

That is exactly what the TSA proposed (not necessarily the details you suggest, but the general concept). And a bunch of politicians and industry lobby groups complained loudly. The TSA had real expertise and data on their side, and the politicians had visceral concerns about how this was "obviously" bad. As usual, visceral concerns won.

if tsa stupidity is removed..

[gl4ss]

then all the fine folks at tsa organization head need to find other high paying jobs.

simple.

And the obvious answer is ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Equip all people with big knifes. Hand them out as people enter the plane

Then any terrorist has to make it through lots of armed people.

Disarming everyone means anyone with a butter knife is dangerous.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Anonymous Coward]

... It's not cheap, it would require TSA to hire/pay much better than they do now ...

And ... to better educated employees. It won't happen because the job of the TSA is to scare 'terrorists' away, not find them. Molesting someone or stealing his tools just proves everyone is patriotic and protected against terrorists.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[chrismcb]

Why?
Not only does that have just as many holes as today's current TSA Sieve has, but why? What are you trying to prevent?
Should we also screen people who enter malls, school, theatres, post offices, stadiums, personal cars, boats, trains, and perhaps screens as you cross streets?

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[bickerdyke]

Well that's the old problem with rare events and statistics.

But considering that Israel suffers from suicide bombings on an almost weekly base until only a few years ago, hardly anything happend behind those checkpoints.

So instead of using the number of caught terrorists as a measure for airport security, I'd suggest using the ratio between attacks foiled by airport security to the number of attacks happening outside airport security.

Re: Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy .

[bickerdyke]

The biggest thing is to have lots of "helper" agents in the middle looking with eyeballs. The problem is that our airports were built like shopping malls, intended to be a destination to pickup/ drop off people and have dinner, etc. they have few "compartments" to their designs for the passenger spaces.

The main problem is that the people who build that security system rather had a administrative/military background instead of a system engineering / security background.

Anyone who ever designed a pice of software knows that backdors ALWAYS DECREASE the security. And that if you pile up enough unconvinient security measures (TSA) that need to rely on backdoors (signing up for TSA pre, "TSA approved" locks that are DESIGNED to be easily opend without the proper key) to be useable, you're doing something completly wrong.

Sometimes I really wonder who designed that stuff. They obviously didn't have the big picture in mind and obviously never thought of the impact and consequences. Like a really small example: Shoe scanning. For the sake of the argument I'll asume that it is in some way usefull. But no one ever thought of how you're supposed to put your shoes back on (or off before the scan) while holding your coat, cabin luggage, clear bag with toothpaste, and your laptop removed from your cabin luggage.

A bench or a footrest behind the x-ray machine would be a simple measure to ease most of the stress at that checkpoint. Or returning your stuff on a tray/table/conveyor belt compartment where you can re-pack it without holding up the line.

Or perhaps just not man the x-ray scanner with complete no-brainers!

Last time I flew out of PHL, the guy in front of me in the line was walking on crutches. I would have expected an approach along the lines of "would you please sit over here while we scan your crutches" or "May I assist you through the metal detector while we scan your crutches seperatly". What I heard was "Do you need these?" What answer did he expect? "No I just wear them to pick up girls. Here's your sign."

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[SmittyVonSmitSmit]

This. I know many people who can kill someone more easily with their bare hands than with a Swiss Army knife.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[itsdapead]

Instead of making folks discard completely non-threatening items, TSA should look into *actual* security.

Or airlines should make checking baggage quicker, cheaper and more secure, so people don't have to bring their pocket knives and hockey sticks into the cabin.

Instead, the policy seems to be to charge extra for checked luggage (and try to deny any liability for losing/damaging/pilfering it) and fail to enforce even their already-generous carry-on limits. Then they act all surprised and flustered when everybody tries to get on the plane with a big f-off wheelie bag or two and, by the time 3/4 of the passengers have boarded, all the overhead bins are full and they're begging people to check luggage at the plane door. So, my small shoulder bag with my laptop and other valuables ends up halfway across the cabin from me (so much for security) or crammed under the seat in front using up most of my 10 angstroms of cattle-class legroom.

It's a stupid list!

[Murdoch5]

When travelling in the US I actually got my bag pulled because I had a candle, I'm not joking a candle! It was considered a hazard. I argued the TSA guard for a while and got it back, then I had my cigar lighter taken because it used compress gas. After pointing out that a lighter is a lighter and if a cigarette smoker can carry lighters I was finally allowed to check it, of course the can of butane was FINE, in my check luggage, didn't ask why. My cigar cutter, which is sharp as hell, was allowed on no problems. I got in trouble for having a chip bag in my carry on, with no reason given :S, I don't really understand how the list of acceptable items works. A cigar cutter that could easily hurt someone is fine but a candle and chip bag aren't? Now I can understand the lighter issue but I think to make it fair all lighters, compressed or not should be taken away.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[RobertLTux]

the pilot then will hit the autopilot disable button and decide to explore the performance envelope of the airframe and then get on the radio

"This is Flight ????? calling the Tower

Go ahead Flight

I need to declare an emergency i had to handle a code 612 so i need to be met by EMS on landing.

Understood Code 612 current status?

Half my passengers and most of my crew were in seatbelts but everything in the cabin went flying. I need to have six persons picked up by the marshalls
"

TSA robbed my wife

[Dareth]

My wife went on a cruise and was flying home. She had bought a "spa pack" of lotions and such things and forgot to put it in her checked bag.
TSA agent told her she had to surrender that spa pack or miss her flight, so she surrendered it. Then she was told she had missed her flight anyway and she asked for it back so she could ship it home. TSA agent refused to give it back. I met her at the airport with a replacement "spa pack" from a local store to make her feel better.

Plastic Cutlery

[LanMan04]

I flew out of Chicago Midway to LAX about a month after 9/11.

The food area of the airport had plastic forks, plastic spoons....but plastic knives were not allowed. Insanity.

Targeting the wrong things

[Anonymous Coward]

What I find most absurd about this whole story is why are they focused on such a silly change. What percentage of people want to carry on hockey sticks? Shouldn't they be working on letting me bring my toothpaste without so much hassle? I'm sure there are many people who are concerned about that.

Hockey sticks?

[LMariachi]

Where the hell are you supposed to stow hockey sticks? The overhead bins aren’t long enough, and it’s been decades since I’ve seen a full-length closet in the cabin Maybe they still have one for first class? And if you have ski poles you almost certainly have skis, which you have to check, so what’s the point of bringing the poles with you?

Think of the children...

[Anonymous Coward]

When in doubt, treat adults like children.

Re:Whew! TSA flew much too close to sane policy ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Something tells me they would choose me incorrectly. After 28 hours of programming straight I would appear disheveled and glassy eyed and soulless without concern for any human being at that moment in time; but I'm really just tired and don't give a rats ass about anything other than getting on the plane and sleeping like the dead. Yet your "crack team" of profilers would probably pull me aside and call me a terrorist. It's just security theater even in Israel. If those guys want to get on places they will.

More to "conficate"

[krischik]

You would not to loose you that little extra income...