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Google Aims To Cull Child Porn By Algorithm, Not Human Review

According to a story at VentureBeat, "Google is working on a new database of flagged images of child porn and abuse that can be shared with other search engines and child protection organizations. The database will help create systems that automatically eliminate that sort of content. ... If the database is used effectively, any flagged image in the database would not be searchable through participating search engines or web hosting providers. And maybe best of all, computers will automatically flag and remove these images without any human needing to see them." Here's the announcement.

188 of 306 comments (clear)

  1. What is the point of this? by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What is the point of automatically removing child porn so it's not searchable. That's not the problem with child porn.

    The problem with child porn is real children are being really abused to make it.

    Making it "not searchable" doesn't stop that. Arresting the people who are making it does.

    1. Re:What is the point of this? by TheBlackMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly.

      Also, I am browsing the net since at least 12 years and i have NEVER found child porn by accident or whatsoever. I am thinking that child porn can be found only in the "dark internet".

      So that makes one wonder what Google's real motives are.

    2. Re:What is the point of this? by Ardyvee · · Score: 3, Informative

      The summary is a bit incomplete. I suppose that if the algorithm finds something, it will warm law enforcement.

      FTFA: "This will enable companies, law enforcement and charities to better collaborate on detecting and removing these images, and to take action against the criminals." "We can do a lot to ensure it’s not available online—and that when people try to share this disgusting content they are caught and prosecuted. "

      --
      I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
    3. Re:What is the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Eliminating demand will certainly decrease offer.

    4. Re:What is the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem with arresting the people who are making child porn is that it provides the government no excuse to monitor all internet traffic of innocent citizens.

    5. Re:What is the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Raising the level of effort to access child porn at all may prevent a certain amount of new customers for these networks.

      At the same time, automatic detection could also be used to help law enforcement track down new content.

    6. Re:What is the point of this? by ebno-10db · · Score: 5, Insightful

      True, which means this isn't a solution. It is about as much as a search engine can do though, so it's to Google's credit.

    7. Re:What is the point of this? by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 5, Funny

      if the algorithm finds something, it will warm law enforcement.

      I may not always agree with law enforcement, but I do not think they are THAT corrupt.

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    8. Re:What is the point of this? by Ardyvee · · Score: 2

      Woops, I meant warn, I MEANT WARN!

      --
      I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
    9. Re:What is the point of this? by ebno-10db · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Realistically this is just a feel good effort. No one is going to seriously criticize Google for this, and they can say "we're doing our part". Not that their part really helps anything, but that's not Google's fault.

      So that makes one wonder what Google's real motives are.

      Good PR. I'm as cynical as the next person, but PR is often the only motive for these things. If they had a sinister motive, they'd just offer to help the NSA some more.

    10. Re:What is the point of this? by cdrudge · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also, I am browsing the net since at least 12 years and i have NEVER found child porn by accident or whatsoever. I am thinking that child porn can be found only in the "dark internet".

      Unfortunately it is out there. In a previous life as an intern I received a computer from a retail store that needed "fixed" as the store manager put it. Figuring it had some malware on it I booted it up to see what the damage was. Almost as soon as the computer was started numerous browser sessions autostarted with some of the most vile websites you wouldn't want to imagine. It wasn't a picture or two of some amateur girlfriend that might have been a little too young. They had the appearance of professionally designed and maintained websites just like any other porn website, but just happened to have kids 13- instead of 18+. I just turned off the computer, went to my boss, explained briefly what I found and said I wasn't dealing with it.

      That was 13+ years ago. I'm sure things have changed some since then, but I'm also not naive to think that child porn is just on the "dark internet" whatever that is.

    11. Re:What is the point of this? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Making it "not searchable" doesn't stop that. Arresting the people who are making it does.

      Nope, it makes it more valuable to the people who distribute it - no more pesky freeloaders!

      (just like drugs, etc.)

      --
      No sig today...
    12. Re:What is the point of this? by aevan · · Score: 1

      I have. Lot more common in the 90s (you'd see it as a banner ads on download sites for cracked software-and I'm talking porn, not just naked children like some russian nudism thing), but it's still out there. Wouldn't call those sites 'dark internet' either, as an altavista search could pull them up.

      More recently, remember that girl that did the 'my life sucks' then suicided? Uncensored autopsy pics got pulled up by Google- CP according to some definitions.

      Still, totally agree with grandparent post - stopping the search aspect is like arresting drug buyers on the street rather than going for the dealers or growers. It's a feel-good PR move, but really isn't accomplishing anything. Suppose though as a private entity it's the limit Google *CAN* do - with all the real stuff being 'non-searchable dark internet' to begin with :P

      Though..an algorithm. Maa..won't someone think of the flat loliesque porn stars? First Australia now Google... :D

    13. Re:What is the point of this? by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      Ding, have a cookie.

      "Think of the children!" is the perfect answer to "Hey, why are you handing all the data to the government investigators?"

    14. Re:What is the point of this? by gweihir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are looking at this from the wrong angle. It is extremely likely that this is not about CP at all, but that Google wanted an effective image censorship system. They realized that this may be hard to sell to the public, so they found CP as an easy solution. They can even use it for that only for the first few months (which will be almost invisible, as there cannot be a lot of CP accessible via Google, if there is anything at all...), then they an start to put in other pictures that are "undesirable", like pictures of political protests, police brutality, etc. And if anybody protests, they can just report them for searching CP. When the life of the one protesting has been ruined, they can just blame it on a "technical problem".

      Quite ingenious, if utterly evil.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    15. Re:What is the point of this? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      "Think of the children!" is the perfect answer to "Hey, why are you handing all the data to the government investigators?"

      Why do they need to answer that question? You're assuming the proles have any power. Besides, in 21st century America, "terrorism" trumps even "think of the children".

    16. Re:What is the point of this? by Xest · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's right, Google, the firm that publicises all DMCA requests it receives and flags up when it's been forced to censor search results by linking to the request on relevant searches, Google, that publishes the source code for many of it's products, Google, that produces a regular transparency report stating as much as it can about what data it's been requested to hand over, what it's been requested to censor and so forth has just arbitrarily decided one day that it wants to censor images. We don't know what images it'll censor after child porn or why, you didn't explain that in your crackpot conspiracy theory, but when it comes to images, they've just out and out decided to go against everything they've ever stood for.

      Care to explain why they'd want to arbitrarily censor images? care to explain what images you think they're desperate to censor? care to explain why they'd be so keen to put themselves at a commercial advantage against existing and future competitors?

      Alternatively, rather than mash your mind trying to answer those questions which you've obviously not padded out to make your conspiracy theory at least make some semblance of sense, care to simply consider that maybe you're just trolling Google and are full of shit?

      They're doing this because doing something voluntarily in a half arsed manner is easier than having it forced on you in a brutal, draconian and difficult to implement manner by government, which is the current alternative in the UK. They also just gave £1million to the IWF which is the UK's child porn censor. It's entirely about appeasing the politicians who are on yet another "think of the children" mission right now.

    17. Re:What is the point of this? by c · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What is the point of automatically removing child porn so it's not searchable.

      Well, if it works to prevent people from seeing it unintentionally then it means the Google search engine provides more relevant search results. So that's a major improvement in Google's search engine.

      If it's automatically identified removed, then presumably Google would be able to purge ephemeral copies from their caches and whatnot, which is probably nice from a liability perspective.

      It might help to reduce casual interest in the subject if it's not easily searchable.

      It doubt it would prevent anyone actively trying to find it, and it certainly won't stop the kinds of people who would go to the length of producing it; at least, I can't imagine that fame through improved search engine results is a significant part of their motivation.

      The question is what is the impact on the people who might make a transition from casual interest (if they could view it by searching) to actual production? If it helps prevents that, it's a win. On the other hand, if these people deal with frustrated urges by just going ahead and making their own, we'd have to call it a major failure.

      Ideally, someone has actually done the research and determined that yes, blocking casual searches for child porn should amount to a net benefit.

      In practice it wouldn't surprise me if it's a move to reduce the threat from Attorney General's who see child porn in Google's search results as an easy PR and courtroom win.

      --
      Log in or piss off.
    18. Re:What is the point of this? by rioki · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Making it more difficult to find may just be one portion of the strategy - no doubt the location of the images is reported to the relevant authorities, and then it's their job to take up the issue. Perhaps reducing access to the material will reduce the ability for people that search for it to find it, which may reduce the number of cases where the activity escalates to direct abuse. Maybe it'll increase the number of abuse cases as they're unable to relieve their desires and turn to local sources.

      Although I think that people abusing children should be outright shot. I have trouble following the logic of the above statement. There used to be a under the counter market for such material and big bucks could be made with it. (The internet basically killed that market, hopefully.) Here there was a real economic incentive to produce material and demand encouraged production. But now, thanks to police work, there is little to no commercial trade of the material. Because the material is such a hot potato, people searching and distributing the material are forced to use means of strong anonymisation and thus no economic transaction can occur. I think most CP created nowadays is distributed along the same lines are people uploading their private videos to porn sharing sites.

      The service by Google is very useful to prevent from services hosting the stuff. Since hosting stuff, even for a very short period of time is always bad PR. What Google builds is basically for PR, for Google and everybody using it.

    19. Re:What is the point of this? by slashmydots · · Score: 1

      Exactly. How about they automatically find out who's behind the website and arrest them in their home country or shut down the hosting company hosting it?

    20. Re:What is the point of this? by J'raxis · · Score: 2

      The point is to try to sell automated censorware to the public by saying it'll only be used against something "everyone" thinks ought to be censored. Once it's established, it's scope will be expanded to cover all sorts of other materials.

    21. Re:What is the point of this? by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      dark internet

      FWIW, according to Wikipedia the term you're looking for is 'darknet' or 'deep web'. I love clear terminology.

    22. Re:What is the point of this? by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So Google are attempting to create a system to automatically disappear content from the Internet with no human supervision, not only that but it also autonomously informs law enforcement of "child porn" found on these sites and you think thats to their credit?

      I was thinking to post this anon, but no. I've personally known people who were victims of such horrible crimes. So my views on this very strong (and biased should you wish to seem them that way.)

      This is a step in the right direction. Be it by peer review or by an algorithm, detect something that is "child porn". Flag it and rate it. Who published it and how it got searched (a profile that could suggest a rating from "accidental" find to "found by premeditated and methodical searches"). Report it to the authorities, and let them sort it out.

      If I were to see or glimpse or even take a whiff of an indication of child porn on someone's computer or a person's private property, or whatever, you can bet your ass that I would call 911, and let the cops sort it out.

      Turned out to be a false positive? I won't sleep much over it, unless someone genuinely innocent gets destroyed by this. But probabilistically, the chance of such occurrence is so low, not impossible, but so extremely low (truly innocent person in possession of child porn), I'm willing to live with the consequences.

      People conflating this with 1984 or PRISM, that's NIMBYstically, selfishly disturbing and disconcerting.

      I'd hate to see what you think is a step too far.

      I'd hate to see what you think is a step too short when fighting child sexual abuse. Seriously, what do you propose in practical terms?

    23. Re:What is the point of this? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      Making it "not searchable" doesn't stop that. Shooting the people who are making it does.

      Just a minor correction.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    24. Re:What is the point of this? by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      It's worked so well in the drug war, now hasn't it?

    25. Re:What is the point of this? by Razgorov+Prikazka · · Score: 3

      That is correct. The list looks a bit like this:
      1 - fighting terrorists
      2 - fighting child pornography
      3 - something with global warming
      4 - helping the government spy on ordinary people.

      --
      rm -rf --no-preserve-root / ...and let /dev/null sort them out...
    26. Re:What is the point of this? by Splab · · Score: 2

      Obviously, you have never hanged out on 4chan.

      It is very much alive and kicking on the regular net, else police wouldn't be apprehending so many pervs (tracking people on TOR is almost impossible).

    27. Re:What is the point of this? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      I was on the internet before it was the internet. My opinion is that the internet has actually become a powerful weapon against pedophiles. Denmark in the early 90's was the "tipping point" but since then many other western nations have started flushing some of these predators out of their own churches and state institutions. I don't know what the answer is since people who enjoy watching or participating in the act of dehumanizing and torturing a child, are by any definition 'sick'.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    28. Re:What is the point of this? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      Making it more difficult to find may just be one portion of the strategy - no doubt the location of the images is reported to the relevant authorities, and then it's their job to take up the issue.

      Making it more difficult means someone has to put more (recorded and archived for 2yrs by your ISP) effort into "accidentally" finding the same "abused kid of the week" site every Saturday night for the last 18 months. Good luck explaining "an evil hacker did it" to a judge and jury.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    29. Re:What is the point of this? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Quick, say that the terrorists make all their money with CP, then you can do both.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    30. Re:What is the point of this? by fafalone · · Score: 1

      You missed the other thing responsible for nearly as much civil rights loss as terrorism:
      - Fighting drugs
      The constitution has been gutted in the name of stopping people from voluntarily ingesting certain substances since even before 9/11. I guarantee someone is going to stand up and say, 'Why can't we use this information to stop those evil drug traffickers?' and no one will object.

    31. Re:What is the point of this? by Xest · · Score: 1

      I'll take your inability to explain the nonsensical unexplained elements of your conspiracy theory as you saying "Yes, I was just trolling" then I guess seeing as rather than offer any explanation that would make your argument make sense you just take the ad hominem route and leave your argument making absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    32. Re:What is the point of this? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I'm willing to be that there are less drugs due to the drug war, just as there was less alcohol during prohibition (a 30% reduction).

      This is not to support the war on drugs, a 50% increase in drug use would be a small price to pay for the money saved, and not destroying the lives of those motivated enough to be entrepreneurs.

      This action could be argued to be bad because it is technically reducing supply without touching demand.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    33. Re:What is the point of this? by Mitreya · · Score: 5, Informative

      Turned out to be a false positive? I won't sleep much over it, unless someone genuinely innocent gets destroyed by this. But probabilistically, the chance of such occurrence is so low, not impossible, but so extremely low (truly innocent person in possession of child porn), I'm willing to live with the consequences.

      You, sir, are a grade-A asshole

      Are you considering the possibility that you might be the target of the false positive (however unlikely)? Because it is mighty kind of you to be willing to live with the consequences of someone else's life being ruined due to false positive.

      All of this would be a less horrible idea if the law enforcement found a less damaging way to investigate (i.e. keep the accusation completely private until it is proven in court). Otherwise lives are utterly ruined well before the investigation is concluded.

    34. Re:What is the point of this? by lhunath · · Score: 2

      You are walking a dangerous road, friend.

      Before you talk, you should think about all the angles. Think about what it means to flag someone as suspicious, think about how easy it is to make someone look suspicious, think about how easy it would be for someone who doesn't like YOU to make YOU look suspicious, and think about how easy it would be to sabotage anything on the internet when all it takes to "temporarily" censor something is a child-porn flag.

      Before you think I'm conflating things, before you start spouting a reply, please step away from the keyboard, take ten minutes, and consider the fact that the world isn't black-and-white. Issues aren't all trivial, and in almost all of the cases, it's better to let the criminals go if it means you won't risk the innocent be jailed or permanently marked by association.

      Hatred and short-sightedness are very dangerous. Only your rational thinking can curb that. Please be smarter.

      --
      ``OK, so ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for good thinking, yeah?''
    35. Re:What is the point of this? by water-and-sewer · · Score: 1

      Agreed, but they're both parts of a joint strategy. Google is helping make the stuff unfindable ... which makes it go more underground, raising its value, which gives a much bigger incentive to the dirtbags that do this stuff. So ... oops ... this is the digital equivalent of the Prohibition laws of the 1930s.

      Imagine if this leads someone to build a custom search engine that specifically goes out to find child porn, because the Google search engine is functionally crippled. Oops.

      I started this post thinking it would help and by the time I got done typing I'm now convinced it will actually make things worse.

      Besides, imagine the person that has to look at CP all day trying to figure out how to fine tune the algorothim? I remember reading an interview with a cop who had to look at the stuff all day to help with investigations. He found the stuff so disturbing it really messed him up and he had to get transferred to a different unit.

      --
      If this were Usenet, I'd killfile the lot of you.
    36. Re:What is the point of this? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      "Something must be done. This is something. Therefore, it must be done!"

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    37. Re:What is the point of this? by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      Turned out to be a false positive? I won't sleep much over it, unless someone genuinely innocent gets destroyed by this. But probabilistically, the chance of such occurrence is so low, not impossible, but so extremely low (truly innocent person in possession of child porn), I'm willing to live with the consequences.

      You, sir, are a grade-A asshole

      Since you say so, it must be so.

      Are you considering the possibility that you might be the target of the false positive (however unlikely)?

      But of course I have. But since your question presupposes an answer (the one you hope to have with which to prop up your privacy soap box), I'll let you think I answer in the negative and let you claim a rhetorical win.

      Because it is mighty kind of you to be willing to live with the consequences of someone else's life being ruined due to false positive.

      As opposed to paralysis by analysis and do nothing about child sexual abuse because ZOMG I might be wrong. Nice NIMBY morality you have there buddy.

      All of this would be a less horrible idea if the law enforcement found a less damaging way to investigate

      But they haven't because it is not a trivial problem. But since you seem to be the genius here, I'm dying to hear your solution.

      (i.e. keep the accusation completely private until it is proven in court).

      Uh, but to be proven in court, it has first to be reported to the authorities, and before being reported to the authorities, it must first be flagged somehow.

      And that is what the algorithm does (or should do.) You keep bringing the word "privacy" as if the purpose of the algorithm is going to publish into the open who searches what. Quite the contrary because the algorithm hides/blocks the matches to begin with.

      Nice red herring/ad hominem though.

      Otherwise lives are utterly ruined well before the investigation is concluded.

      As opposed to lives that are not hypothetically ruined, but actually ruined in real life as the result of real child sexual abuse. So who is the asshole again?

      So genius, since I'm an asshole (and dumb and stupid) please pray tell your solution to this problem. What do you propose? What do you suggest?

      Or are you just actively searching for a topic to latch on and publish your anguish on the interwebz, to post how upset you are about violation of liberties in terms of the hypothetical which trumps the need to deal effectively with child sexual abuse?

    38. Re:What is the point of this? by Xest · · Score: 1

      Rather than continuing to make a fool of yourself, you could just admit you were wrong and accept it.

      You know, just saying, just throwing that out there in case you decide you don't want to keep looking stupid.

    39. Re:What is the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Turned out to be a false positive? I won't sleep much over it, unless someone genuinely innocent gets destroyed by this. But probabilistically, the chance of such occurrence is so low, not impossible, but so extremely low (truly innocent person in possession of child porn), I'm willing to live with the consequences.

      Go to 4chan for a few weeks. Your browser cache may now very well contain child porn, even though you did not want child porn, because posting to 4chan is anonymous and even though they do their best to take illegal images down they can't always tell if something is child porn and if it is, it will take them a while to find out about it. I'm pretty sure there are more readers of 4chan than there are pedophiles getting child porn on the internet, leaving your false positive rate at more than 50%. I know a kid who for some reason liked to amass vast quantities of porn on his computer. At meets he'd copy gigabytes of everyone else's stashes - more than he could ever watch. He ended up taking the rap for child porn charges because one of those images, perhaps an image he never saw, was child porn. In my home country, the police get many more panicked calls from people who inadvertently saw child porn on the internet (and are now horrified that they will be prosecuted for seeing it, which in fact could happen if it is in their browser cache) than they do leads on actual child rapists. Preventing child rape (or rape of any kind, for that matter) is a worthwhile endeavor. Doing something productive about it is good. Randomly ruining innocent people's lives is not productive - it's not what needs to be done, regardless of your ability to feel bad about it.

    40. Re:What is the point of this? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I understand his position, and I don't think he's an asshole, but you do have a point. Simply sullying your hard drive with that stuff doesn't mean that you actually in any way promoted the original abuse. So, to my mind, even CP does not justify extreme action, if it is only possession.

      Possession does make you a sick fuck, of course.

      Still, I might consider what Google is doing a public service in another way. I don't want CP on my computer, and if Google removes it as something that may pop up on my computer in the course of another search, I'm all for that.

      Now, it would be nice to be able to opt-in or opt-out, but that is little tricky. Who would actually change their setting to turn the CP filter off? That pretty much screams you are some sort of perv. So, this service is realistically one that you can't really shut off unless you are really brave. I could see arguing against it simply because it might hide things that aren't CP and you could not be expected to want to take the risk of opting out.

    41. Re:What is the point of this? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      There was a story about how much Google resents the NSA six days ago, so I don't think you've hit the nail on the head here.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    42. Re:What is the point of this? by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they're tired of all the FBI /NSA requests and are trying to remove themselves out of that picture.

      I also heard that google content inspector is a job that requires therapy.

    43. Re:What is the point of this? by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      You, sir, are a grade-A asshole

      Since you say so, it must be so.

      Well, if you are including yourself/your family in the list of possible false-positives, then I probably misjudged you -- my apologies. Still, you would agree that for every single person like you, many others will make such statements with an explicit assumption that no "good" (undeserving) person will ever be hit with a false positive.

      As opposed to paralysis by analysis and do nothing about child sexual abuse because ZOMG I might be wrong.

      They should be reporting/investigating the image hosters, not image possessors. Doesn't sound like that's what they are doing. In some cases, people have been flagged for hand-drawn or photoshopped CP images. As disturbing as it is, no actual children were involved then. If you include every such case, the number of false positives will no longer be negligible.

      As opposed to lives that are not hypothetically ruined, but actually ruined in real life as the result of real child sexual abuse.

      Talk about straw-man. By all means, let's do what we can to prevent child abuse, I am all for it. I'd just prefer to focus on, you know, actual people who abuse children and I am not convinced that monitoring and blocking image searches will help that goal.

    44. Re:What is the point of this? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Proof that the *AAs hate the children!

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    45. Re:What is the point of this? by davidwr · · Score: 1

      Making it "not searchable" doesn't stop that. Shooting the people who are making it does.

      What would you shoot them with, a top-of-the-line camera or a $20 Wal-Mart pocket-cam?

      --
      Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    46. Re:What is the point of this? by davidwr · · Score: 1

      If you'd been abused when you were ten, would you want those pictures online?

      That's an interesting question.

      If I were molested and photographed at age 10 and I came into possession of the photographs when I was 20 or 30, would I want the right to publish them online? Would I want the right to license the publication rights to others in exchange for mega-bucks? Or would I want to live in a society that says "no, you don't have that right, and the reason why is if we give you and others in your situation that right, it will lead to more child abuse?"

      Me, personally, I hope to God that I would be in the last group. But what can I, as a person who generally believes in free speech and (within some limits) American-style capitalism tell those victims of child abuse who, by some means or another, came into possession of previously-unpublished photographs of their own abuse when they were a child and they want to market those images legally without being a hypocrite?

      --
      Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    47. Re:What is the point of this? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The answer ultimately, is to catch as many of them as possible, and give them medical treatment, or at least monitoring. And in cases where that doesn't work, you send them to prison or the hospital until a resolution has been reached.

      Despite what people think, the reality is that people in prison generally require treatment and frequently have brain damage or other abnormalities. You can increase the penalties all you want, but at the end of the day, that isn't going to deter anybody that isn't thinking about the consequences of their actions. At best you're housing and storing them separate from society, you're not actually preventing crime like that.

    48. Re:What is the point of this? by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      The NSA isn't the only game in town.

      Do they freely hand data to any other governments? China, India, Egypt, Saudi Arabia perhaps?

      Diverting attention from "we might be doing something many people might object to" towards "we're trying to do something that most reasonable people will say is good" is pretty basic PR damage control.

    49. Re:What is the point of this? by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The goal is to eliminate the known child porn, not to decide what is or is not child porn. Presumably their database will come from law enforcement agencies. That said, your comment brings up a valid point—that you can't always tell what is or is not legal. Those photos of that Hollywood actress a few years ago were taken when she was only 17. The fact that she took them and sent them to her boyfriend doesn't change the fact that (assuming she wasn't lying to try to make the photos go away) possessing those photos is technically illegal under child porn laws.

      This raises a more interesting question: Will it be possible for individuals to query that database? For example, if someone downloads a picture from somewhere and can't tell with certainty whether the girl is legal or not, could that person anonymously query the database to determine the legality of that photo? I mean, obviously the database would be incomplete, so lack of data does not necessarily indicate legality, but I could see something similar to virus scanners that periodically scan your porn collection against the child porn database and alert you to anything that shows up in that database so you can delete it. That would be a useful tool for staying on the right side of a law that is otherwise basically impossible to comply with (at least with any degree of certainty), particularly if it came with information describing how the age of the person in particular photo was determined and the level of certainty involved. For example, for a presumably legal photo, it might return "Over 18. Certainty: low. Reason: not found in database" or it might contain "Over 18. Certainty: high. Reason: Playboy affidavit" or anything in between.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    50. Re:What is the point of this? by lgw · · Score: 1

      It's far too open to abuse, like every other time someone says "we have a secret list of stuff we're blocking, but we promise it has no political content".

      This is not a list of CP images to block, it's a list of images to block that people have flagged as CP. Unless they're individually reviewed by Google before being added to the list (and the point of this seems to be that they aren't), then a group could collaborate to have any image banned from Google search. Just get enough people to report it as CP and it's gone. 4chan pulls stunts like that all the time.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    51. Re:What is the point of this? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      OIG explained to us that the imaged human is victimized and subjected to psychological trauma the instant any person looks at the image. The victim is victimized again whenever someone sees the image, so people need to not look.

      I think they just don't like the idea that people who have spent time looking at child pornography need to be subject to psychological evaluation; and that those of us who have an adaptive stress reaction are impossible to discern from sociopaths (i.e. people who are plotting to destroy you because it's fun). To put this into perspective: most people, when you expose them to bestiality and scat and child porn and other gross shit, after repeat exposure they're a nervous wreck with PTSD--hence the psychological evaluation, Class A amnesics, etc. Then there's folks like me who have our absolute breakdown right away and start *screaming*, and then taper down--and what you're left with is someone who's just not bothered by it, which really scares the shit out of people.

      The worst ones aren't the ones that get used to it. The worst are the ones that recognize a sexual context and adapt to meet social pressure--and that's, unfortunately, fairly normal. The PTSD folks get is from exposure creating a subconscious feeling that this is what they need to be to be accepted into society, while their mind violently rejects the images they're being fed. Without the rejection, you'd get ... well ... people who are off-put, and then able to handle it, and then turned on by sex with animals and children. It's the same as reprogramming a dude to be bisexual, really (reprogramming someone to be gay/straight is hard--you have to add a revulsion to one mode of sexual attraction, which usually brings all kinds of other damage and really only creates repression).

      Yes, I've learned far too much about how humans work.

    52. Re:What is the point of this? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Some e-mail address in .ru or .cn or something e-mailed me child porn once. The girl in the picture was older than I was at the time. Looking back on this, I lol.

    53. Re:What is the point of this? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Making it "not searchable" doesn't stop that. Arresting the people who are making it does.

      But, it does, in theory, slow the distribution of it. And once you have automated tools to detect it, again in theory, you have better tools to find the people making it sooner.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    54. Re:What is the point of this? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Also, I am browsing the net since at least 12 years and i have NEVER found child porn by accident or whatsoever.

      I don't know about now, but back in the days of usenet I certainly found it by accident on more than one occasion.

      You used to have to play a.b.p.e roulette by dowloading several chunks, re-assembling, and uudecoding -- and lo and behold one day I found myself looking at this crap.

      I doubt people stumble on it by accident very often, but I don't get the impression it's relegated solely to the 'dark' internet.

      Judging by the sheer number of stories we see about this stuff, it apparently isn't all that difficult to find -- that or we have to assume that all people who go looking for this are hugely sophisticated technical people, and I'm just not convinced that's the case.

      I for one hope I never have to see it again, and I can't imagine anybody whose job required them to look at it on a regular basis. I can only assume that would be a rather soul-numbing chore -- the police who track this stuff and any poor schmuck who is manually verifying for Google or someone sound like the worst job ever.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    55. Re:What is the point of this? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      My stance on drugs is constantly evolving. Currently it stands:

      If it's viciously addictive, it should be regulated; the more physically and socially toxic (you CAN'T go to work without shooting heroine if you're DYING FROM WITHDRAWAL) and the more addictive, the higher the penalties should be. For dealing the penalties should be a hell of a lot higher--you sell methamphetamine to minors, we bring back crucifixion. For possession and use, lower penalties--for addiction cases, I want to get people off the drugs. Possession and use are difficult because leaving them open creates problems, but attempting to address them puts people who made mistakes and now are seeking help in the line of fire--and those who repent deserve help, not punishment; they are no longer a danger to society (i.e. by exemplifying and encouraging the consumption of dangerous substances) and deserve to not be treated as one.

      If it's not addictive, or just not very--if the risk is very low--then the danger to society is very low and the damage done by prohibition is extremely high. We have two options: Accept the potential risk (maybe we find out some day marijuana is like... really, worse than Heroine) and leave open the possibility to discover great benefits in the future; or reject the risks and take away any potential benefits. I can tell you straight out marijuana is anxiolytic--sure I've never used it, but THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE USE IT FOR so you know... I'm about 100% certain that's the primary positive benefit. By banning it, we're saying the risk to society outweighs the harm done by prohibition enforcement plus the loss of an anxiolytic option--is that really true? If not, then it shouldn't be banned.

      Disclosure: I'm basically always on Piracetam, Aniracetam, L-Theanine, Alpha-GPC, Noopept, and SAM-e, all currently legal. I also have Oxiracetam and Pramiracetam for occasional use (also legal); and I do often take standardized antioxidants marketed as "green tea extract" standardized to 98% polyphenols, with 50% of the total mass being EGCg.

      The doctors had me on Methylphenedate and Risperdal, which had vicious side effects and were terrible and relatively toxic; they suggested a mixture of mainly dexamphetamine (Adderall--78.2% dex), which is also too toxic to my tastes (but people who snort cocaine insist that dex isn't bad for you and tell me it's the best substance ever invented...). I'm on zero prescription drugs.

      I've actually gotten better results out of the drugs I've picked out for myself, and can safely adjust them at will--the drug interactions are good, and doses of 80 times the standard dosage are minimally risky, and the side effects are things like headache (because of choline depletion--hence Alpha-GPC, fixes that), insomnia (I have that anyway, and Melatonin 1mg time release fixes that), and an upset stomach (eating at McDonalds does that too, and it doesn't happen to me). This works better for me, and if we just brazenly banned all kinds of shit without evaluating if it's dangerous then I wouldn't have that option.

      Now, Dexamphetamine is another potential treatment route; but it's dangerous--I actually believe that, you can dispute it but let's keep context clear--and I have no problem with it being scheduled. I can get it with prescription. Cocaine I can't get, even if the doctors determine that cocaine may be an effective option to treat some condition I have--I understand that too, but if that ever happens I don't think I'd be able to argue that banning cocaine is a bad thing. I'd argue that the lack of research into medical use and access to prescription under a doctor's professional judgment is ... inconvenient, and that if there's such a body of knowledge suggesting it should be scheduled for prescription then that needs to be fixed. But I mean, hell, dangerous substances, I don't want that stuff floating around out there. Look at how that works with cigarettes.

      You can be an uberlibertarian if you want and go raving that we sho

    56. Re:What is the point of this? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      They are. Corruption is a portion, and it doesn't have to be a majority--just one damaged organ with 10% of its tissue rotting away will kill the whole organism.

    57. Re:What is the point of this? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Sure, the terrorists use movie/music/game piracy to make enough money to create child porn, which they then sell to get money for their terror. Now we just have to add something about Global Warming to the mix, and we've got the perfect catch-all "justification" ;-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    58. Re:What is the point of this? by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      Even better would be if Google provided open source tools to allow website owners to check images (again, anonymously) against Google's database as they are being uploaded by users. By tying into such a service, bulletin board tools could make it really easy for site admins to ensure that posting child porn on their boards was very, very hard. This would be particularly useful for newly established boards where the number of users is small enough that such postings might otherwise go unnoticed for an extended period of time.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    59. Re:What is the point of this? by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      From TFS:

      computers will automatically flag and remove these images without any human needing to see them

      So this system will prevent people who are looking for normal porn from finding child porn by mistake.

      I'm in favor of that because, yuck.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    60. Re:What is the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The mere accusation is enough to practically ruin your life. There was a small company a while back that got its server hacked and became a server for child porn and warez. The owner of the company found out about it and, not knowing much about computers, accused the sysadmin of it. Even though it was quickly proven that it was the result of a hack that he had nothing to do with, the media didn't bother to report that. But you can bet as soon as the accusation was made news vans were swarming his yard. In the end he got his car burned down and his house looted, and the local police wouldn't help him. He ended up changing his name and moving a few states away, and even then people mysteriously found out who he was and what he had been accused of. He wrote an article about it a while back.

    61. Re:What is the point of this? by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the really effective treatment is usually something that no self respecting doctor would do (think lobotomy). In many cases, people are kept in mental hospitals for the rest of their lives and given powerful sedatives while the doctors fail to find an effective and ethical therapy.
      It is not so much different than prison : it works by separating dangerous elements from society rather than changing them.

    62. Re:What is the point of this? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      "Let's be clear, drug traffickers, in most cases, are actually evil."

      Really? I must have encountered one of life's serious anomalies then, because of the hundreds I've met they were pretty much all normal people looking to make a buck. If any of them were "evil", they hid it quite well.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    63. Re:What is the point of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's funny how this all is panning out. Once upon a time, naked kids were considered cute, and/or funny, and we all would laugh when a naked kid ran into the room unexpectedly. Hell, there's a movie called "Superman" that has full frontal nudity of a 4 or 5 year old boy, lifting a car off of an old man. It came out in the late 70's.

      Today, technically, you can be arrested for owning that movie.

      If your slutty 13 year old daughter films herself masturbating for her 14 year old boyfriend, saves it to the family computer and sends it, forgetting to remove it, then you (the head of household) can be arrested for child porn. Family albums that contain bath tub photos are another possible child porn charge.

      I would hate to guess at the mechanism that google plans to use. I know they have a strong history of providing powerful solutions to some interestingly complex problems, but this? Why not silently sift through the images, and silently find out where it's coming from?

      On the other side, google is doing us all a favor. Some sites that are pornographic in nature may have a friend's site linked at the bottom, and that friend may have a questionable image set as the link. Cops searching a PC always will want to check with a grand jury before letting those images go.

    64. Re:What is the point of this? by linear+a · · Score: 1

      Making it not searchable means they identified it, knows where it is, and can alert authorities to same. Second-order effect is to reduce cp production.

    65. Re:What is the point of this? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      THe problem with this sort of thing is that it sells TOO well and you could possibly see legislation in the future forcing this ot be installed on all computing devices.

      --
      Good-bye
    66. Re:What is the point of this? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      So logical that you would bring back cruel and unusual punishment for 'selling drugs to children'? This is an appeal to emotion, not logic. Spock would be disappointed.

      --
      Good-bye
    67. Re:What is the point of this? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      It's impossible to know if there are less drugs out there under the "War against drugs" than there would be in the alternative reality of no such war.

      What we do know is that there are more drugs out there every year. So on that basis it's failing.

    68. Re:What is the point of this? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      I've stumbled upon what (might have been) child porn - it was almost certainly illegal (of a minor) though it may have been one of those things which was circumstantially legal based on jurisdiction due to the person's age - or the person could've just been a very young looking adult. It happened a couple times (eg. browsing someone's open-to-the-world but "personal" private web server that they thought they'd only shared with friends or something - nothing illegal, just poorly 'hidden').

      I also slept with "girls" when I was kid who were, well... they had no problem getting into bars without an ID.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    69. Re:What is the point of this? by ickleberry · · Score: 1

      Query the database so you can fap with a clear concience :)

    70. Re:What is the point of this? by fsterman · · Score: 1

      What is the point of automatically removing child porn so it's not searchable. That's not the problem with child porn.

      The problem with child porn is real children are being really abused to make it.

      Making it "not searchable" doesn't stop that. Arresting the people who are making it does.

      The Telegraph's reporting on this issue outlines the intense political pressure the UK government has placed on these companies. One of the big problems was interoperability. With this database, local law enforcement and small ISP's can use the biggest repository of signatures for these images instead of building one from scratch.

      --
      Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
    71. Re:What is the point of this? by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Yes, they do, but they don't play coy about it. This Markov chain cynicism, where commenters suggest every organisation might commit every evil they can dream up, gets really tiresome. For the most part you have to actually be a government representative before you're thuggish enough to use child porn as an excuse for other abuses.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    72. Re:What is the point of this? by I_say · · Score: 1

      When people try to share this disgusting content they are caught and prosecuted.

      That seems like the wrong way of going about it. The image has already been created and the child has already been exploited; The fact that perverts share the image shouldn't really matter. They should be putting more effort towards finding the image source, the guy who's touching kids. It's a bit of a weak analogy, but compare this to the way we handled the drug war in the past. Users were being pursued just as much as the Producers, and then nobody thought about the User after incarceration. If the User springs a trap, fine, that's cool. It's a great chance to get him some therapy and make him better. But the User is not the one hurting children, and this is defintely aimed at the Users. The algorithm looks for images that have already been circulated, instead of new ones. The new images are important because they'll help trap Producers, but Google is just doing a PR stunt with this program. Unrelated: It also bothers me that there are pictures of dead children and exsanguinated teens floating around, but that's perfectly legal to see. That's some shaky logic.

    73. Re:What is the point of this? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      "Cruel and unusual punishment" is an appeal to emotion.

      It's a fact both that children have less life experience and that highly addictive and dangerous substances are difficult to learn from and adapt to. Heroine will addict you in 3-4 uses (not 1 like people say), and after fairly short-term use will put you in a situation where withdrawal can be fatal--not to mention your brain is screaming for it. I know folks who have been through it and gotten out of it as young as 12-14; their anecdotes are always the same: it's only their emotional support network of family and friends that pulled them out, otherwise they'd have never gotten off no matter how bad they'd wanted to.

      The same can be said of student loans--18 year olds don't know anything about finances, and hell even most seasoned adults who have trudged all 30 years of a mortgage don't get it. How anyone thinks deferred loans are a good idea is beyond me. Maybe it's because people put too much value on education--more value than the sum total of their life, not to mention a stunted career unless you're in some form of education-driven skilled labor (i.e. medicine, law, higher level engineering/mechanics i.e. rockets and planes). Experience-driven skilled labor (automechanics, IT, management) benefits more from entering the career field early, taking college slowly, taking a broad-base education, and taking minimal and short-term debt.

      It's not fallacious to assume that children and young adults are less experienced and more vulnerable. It is in fact a powerful strategy to market wares to the naive and build psychological attachment so that they become a profitable adult market--it's called 'grooming'. Drug dealers would do best to market their wares to young teens and turn them into addicts just like cigarette companies used to. This isn't an appeal to emotion so much as an acknowledgement of a fact.

      Likewise, I specified that we're applying certain rules to things we determine to represent a wide social threat. Highly addictive substances are important; substances we're uncomfortable with but that represent low risk are not as important. Executing drug dealers for selling marijuana to kids is an appeal to emotion--especially with arguments about gateway drugs and their future forays into cocaine and prostitution to support their habits. Citing a problem that represents a societal threat to the adult population and tracing it back to the impact of indoctrinating young, mouldable minds is simple strategy.

      As for cruel and unusual punishment, we live in a world where a highly immature and uncivilized segment of society has used a huge appeal to emotion to convince people that folks don't really fear pain or death. Execution is not a deterrent to murder, and the infliction of pain (called "torture" even if we're talking about something as banal as caning, which is little more than a short, painful beating) is thought to be a horror. For our trouble, what we do is shove people into prison for eternity instead of executing them; and, when we do execute them, we do so by injecting them with anesthetics so they feel no pain as they die peacefully.

      How cruel it would be to take a poor man who steals a loaf of bread, beat him two dozen times, and send him home to his family. He might be sore when he returns to work the next day to barely earn money for food and rent. What we should do, what we do instead now, is send him to jail for 45 days, 60 days, 90 days. When he comes back he will be behind in rent, and his family will be starving, possibly evicted already and on the street; he likely will no longer have a job; but at least we're not so cruel as to drive screams of pain out of him by vicious application of the cane! No, we're much better sentencing him to a life on the streets where his best options are petty theft--or, perhaps, to become a drug dealer and have a chance at affording a home again one day. This is the superior, civil method of dealing with criminals--not that barbaric display of cruelty our ancestors used.

      Watch what fallacies you call. You might want to look a little harder to see if perhaps you're standing on that very island.

    74. Re:What is the point of this? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      You're correct, I was generalizing from other prohibitions that have happened (one example being Alcohol in the US, similar has happened with other drugs too).

      The war on drugs fails by the definition you use (and by the one I would use, which is weather the government policy improves society or not). The war on drugs is devastating to society and public health, but common sense, and past prohibitions show us that it most likely has reduced usage (somewhat on the demand side most likely, and almost certainly dramatically on the supply side (look how rich drug lords get growing and distributing coke, vs farmers get with corn, one can see that this agricultural commodity is clearly artificially scare, the increased prices this scarcity cause DO reduce use (see heroin since the war on terror opened up the poppy growth in Afghanistan))).

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  2. I hope they really mean child by Mal-2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If they mean "all underage" and not just "blatantly children", good luck with that. There are no characteristics that will distinguish between 17 and 18, or even older. What is the software going to think of Kat Young, for example? What about models who are just small?

    Also are they going to attempt to sort through drawings at all, considering they are legal in some jurisdictions and not others?

    I sense false positives and angry models in Google's future.

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    1. Re:I hope they really mean child by Ardyvee · · Score: 1

      Yes, this seems to be a difficulty they may face, and something I would like to see addressed. While I have seen things I would rather have not (and not necessarily related to this topic), I'm not entirely sure I would deem it illegal. Maybe I'm just biased by finding it as something that just comes with the Internet as part of the package. That and as long as it's not shoved in my face I don't really mind it existing*

      *of course, child porn/abuse is illegal, so my personal view on it is kind of irrelevant and thus not part of that statement.

      --
      I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
    2. Re:I hope they really mean child by Barny · · Score: 2

      I for one can't wait until the Aussie government get in on this. Women with small breasts will be flagged and, as you said, drawings too.

      It is a good effort, but the world is really becoming just a little too fucked up to start trying to stop things now.

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    3. Re:I hope they really mean child by gmack · · Score: 1

      The summary is a bit off. The algorithm can't actually detect child porn, what this looks like is a system similar to the one Youtube uses where one item gets reported and it's blocked globally rather than have to have someone report each instance of the same image.

    4. Re:I hope they really mean child by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Informative
      This is about detecting known images (presumably even if altered a bit), not automatically detecting if a heretofore unseen image is CP. From the Google announcement:

      Since 2008, we’ve used “hashing” technology to tag known child sexual abuse images, allowing us to identify duplicate images which may exist elsewhere. Each offending image in effect gets a unique ID that our computers can recognize without humans having to view them again . Recently, we’ve started working to incorporate encrypted “fingerprints” of child sexual abuse images into a cross-industry database. This will enable companies, law enforcement and charities to better collaborate on detecting and removing these images, and to take action against the criminals. Today we’ve also announced a $2 million Child Protection Technology Fund to encourage the development of ever more effective tools. [emphasis added]

    5. Re:I hope they really mean child by bWareiWare.co.uk · · Score: 1

      As usually by the time it made it to the Slashdot headline it was completely miss-reported. They are working on a DB to share hashes of known images. This only prevents them having to review the image on each new URL, someone still has to have seen the image and added it to the DB (to be honest they had better be conforming these flags at least sometimes so that's two people etc.etc.)

    6. Re:I hope they really mean child by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      This system is not "looking" at images. It is a database of hashes of known offending files, against which found content can be compared. Matching content will be filtered.

      Of course this only works for known files (which are flagged by humans, I supposed, though that is not explicitly mentioned in TFA), and if a file is altered the hash changes. Though that doesn't happen too often, most people share content they find unaltered. And it doesn't work for new files, either. Those still need to be flagged - however a lot can be done automatically there, too, as if you find a certain unknown jpg on a site containing many known offending images, it's likely this unknown image is also offending.

    7. Re:I hope they really mean child by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

      This is what I assumed.

    8. Re:I hope they really mean child by rioki · · Score: 1

      Hope that it is just some characteristics, such as file hashes. Because the DB with actual pictures, even "not searchable", would probably be illegal at least as the laws are spelled out currently.

    9. Re:I hope they really mean child by rioki · · Score: 1

      If you look at how good / bad the YouTube content-id system works you can infer how this system works. Probably the same tech, which has some leeway for fuzzy mapping.

    10. Re:I hope they really mean child by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      If they mean "all underage" and not just "blatantly children", good luck with that. There are no characteristics that will distinguish between 17 and 18, or even older. What is the software going to think of Kat Young, for example? What about models who are just small?

      This is a common matching problem for which a solution has been know for quite a long time: Probabilistic weights.

      Algorithms can simply apply a probabilistic weight to the matches. Kat Young alike = 0.001. Obvious toddler = 1.0. Barring the Kat Young/small model outliers, there are physical markers that can distinguish between a normal 17 year old from a 10 year old from a 4 year old.

      You, or rather we, cannot do anything about in terms of automatic (or even manual/visual) matching of physical characteristics at the legal boundary of age. Nor should we because the bulk of child abuse occurs with children of younger age (unless we want to find an excuse to entertain paralysis-by-analysis.)

      The bulk of child abuse occurs with younger kids, for which, on average, anatomical characteristics can be inferred automatically to a great degree of certainty (and far easier than face recognition which is already implementable.)

      Also are they going to attempt to sort through drawings at all, considering they are legal in some jurisdictions and not others?

      Probably not because the main point is not just to act as a moral police, but to act upon actual evidence of child abuse. A drawing, as perverted as it might be, might not be evidence of child abuse. On the other hand, a child porn pic, that is certainly evidence of child abuse.

      The former is not "actionable". The later is.

      I sense false positives and angry models in Google's future.

      I doubt angry models (except the most narcissist ones) will sue in droves for being flagged as such, specially if the technology end up working well for the intended purpose.

      False positives will always exist. Pretending they don't exist, that is stupid. Not moving forward in such a case just because they might come up. That is equally stupid.

      Plus, I'm sure the algorithm designers at google might have thought about them a long longer than you on this post. Unless we are actually entertaining the idea that only us can foreseen the problem of false positives, but Google engineers do not.

    11. Re:I hope they really mean child by RobinH · · Score: 1

      So Google's creating an incentive to create new CP?

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    12. Re:I hope they really mean child by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      So Google's got CP itself...and since corporations are people...Google will be getting arrested for possessing child porn, right?

      But of course we can't use the bullheaded and illogical laws on the corporations with all teh monies.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    13. Re:I hope they really mean child by Barny · · Score: 1

      By small I mean under a C cup. Apparently aussie lawmakers like their bewbs big!

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
  3. False positive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How do we know it will only flag illegal content? What if iPhone gets flagged and only Android phones shows up in searches? Intentionally or not. This is just like when they came up with the idea to avid searching for certain words. I instantly stated "will this ban the party, which writes on their homepage that they will increase the jailtime for such offenses?".

    Don't get me wrong. I think it's great if the intended pictures aren't available or better yet, they aren't made in the first place. However my experience with auto detection tells me that it always include some false positives.

    1. Re:False positive by sjwt · · Score: 1

      "What if iPhone gets flagged and only Android phones shows up in searches?"

      Then the world will be a better place.

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  4. I support this by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

    This is a really good idea.

  5. I have a better idea.... by SemmiZamunda · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How about instead you compile a list of where these images are HOSTED.....and then DO SOMETHING about that? Notify local law enforcement of the images and give all garnered info about said images to them.

    1. Re:I have a better idea.... by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      RTFA. They'll do that.

    2. Re:I have a better idea.... by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      That tactic has worked so well eliminating all the pirate sites out there, hasn't it.

  6. Re:Google has the worlds largest cp collection by Trepidity · · Score: 2

    Police are legally allowed to possess contraband in the course of an investigation; private-sector entities aren't, absent some exception in the law permitting them to. For example, you can't keep a large collection of drugs for research purposes (e.g. training drug-detecting sensors) unless you apply for special permits.

  7. Not sure I agree 100% that this is a good idea.... by realsilly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Let me be clear about this. I DO NOT condone child pornography at all; I find it foul and disgusting. But there is a over-reaching that I think may go on here. If I purchase a server and I engage in a P2P network, then it is not Google nor any one else's business what I transmit. If the server is a public server or one owned by a company (such as Google), then I would agree they have every right to remove such foul content from their servers.

    Yes I would rather that the people who engage in this be stopped. But whenever programs like this are created they tend to start out being put to use with the best of intentions, but will likely be used for other more nefarious purposes. If this algorithm is used to sniff out child pornography, it could be modified to sniff out a information about a political party and quell it, or news that a government agency doesn't want people to know about.

    With all that has recently come to light about the spying by the US Govt. can you really say that this with 100% certainty that this technology won't be abuse for other purposes? I can't.

    Again I DO NOT condone Child Pornography.

    --
    Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
  8. Seems like this could be used for other things by usuallylost · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Removing child pornogragphy is a laudable goal.

    We just have to realize that it won't stop at that. From the what the article says it seems like that technology could be used for any image. At the very least I expect we'll see general copyright enforcement from this. Worst case we will see things like various regimes being able to use this to suppress images they don't like. Oh you have pictures of us slaughtering our opponents well we better put those on the bad list.

  9. brute force by Spaham · · Score: 1

    Do you think it could be possible to reconstruct those images by brute-force trying all combinations until you get a positive answer from the database ?
    It would take time, but doesn't sound impossible...

    1. Re:brute force by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Quite impossible. You are completely and utterly clueless of the difficulties involved _and_ you are clueless about your cluelessness. Look up the Dunning-Krueger Effect. You are on the far left of the curves.

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      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:brute force by dhTardis · · Score: 1

      Let's see... even Wikipedia's example of a poor JPEG is 1523 bytes, so (accounting for metadata) at least 2^10000 (10^3000) possible images. Divide by whatever images/second you like (a billion? a billion billion?) and it's still "more universe lifetimes than you can imagine". "Take time" and "impossible" are not, in this case, mutually exclusive.

  10. Re:Not sure I agree 100% that this is a good idea. by jbmartin6 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My reaction was something similar. I question the value of a search engine when it is no longer neutral. Now I will only see what Google has decided it is in my interest to see. This technology will be used in the future to skew political searches for example, or to favor one company's products over another's. (If it isn't already.) Now if they said 'we are using Google's search engine to catch child pornographers' I would say good for you please continue.

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  11. Out of sight, out of mind by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This will increase child abuse. As soon as it becomes invisible, perpetrators are completely free to do whatever they like, as the public will not be aware it is a problem. The reason is that it addresses the wrong problem. Distribution of CP is a minor issue. Creation of CP (and all the child abuse that is not documented or does not end up on the Internet) is the real problem. It seems politicians have become so focused on distribution of CP, that nothing is being done anymore to fight actual child abuse. After all, distribution of CP gives nice and easy convictions and to hell with the children themselves.

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    1. Re:Out of sight, out of mind by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      This will increase child abuse. As soon as it becomes invisible, perpetrators are completely free to do whatever they like, as the public will not be aware it is a problem.

      This probably won't do squat to make it less visible, because it's already reasonably well hidden. Any poster of CP that's too dumb to keep it out of the range of search engines has probably already been caught. This is a feel good effort. I can't criticize it, but it won't have much effect one way or the other.

  12. Re:Not sure I agree 100% that this is a good idea. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

    Google and other search engines filter content already - like Google's "safe search" options to block images showing naked people to appear in their image search. The technology exists, and "safe search" appears to actually analyse images to judge the content, while this child porn database only compares file hashes against known offending content.

    The technology is there, it's not new, this is just a new application of it. And I have to say I'm quite confident that it's not being used for political purposes, partly because it's Google themselves that take the initiative, not the government.

    Also if it becomes known that Google actively filters certain political content or skews search results intentionally to push a political agenda, they may end up losing their #1 spot as search engine really fast (especially if at the same time the competition, most notably Bing because that's the only one that I know wiith serious money behind it, finally gets their act together and provides a proper alternative).

  13. And that's a reason to avoid a useful tool? by sirwired · · Score: 1

    This is certainly, unarguably, a useful tool that can be used in order to accomplish a worthy societal goal; I don't think our criteria for such things should be: "Well, it could be used for bad things, so we should stick our heads in the sand instead." No cars because they might be driven by bank robbers! No knives because they might be used to cut people instead of carrots! etc.

    In any case, content recognition algorithms already exist and are already used for nefarious purposes. Why not use those tools towards a worthy end?

  14. Fighting the good fight by TQL · · Score: 1

    I think we should be praising and supporting any organisation that is trying to protect innocent children from being subjected to this. We should not only lobby governments and organisations to do more to stop the practice and bring these people to justice but also praying for the poor children that are at the centre of this.

    Also, spare a thought for the poor Google employees who are going to have to test this algorithm. I sincerely hope that Google ensure that these people are given any support and counselling they might need.

    1. Re:Fighting the good fight by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      As to your 1st paragraph, do you know anyone who disagrees? And if they did, they wouldn't say so.

      As to your 2nd paragraph, there was a Slashdot story a while ago (can't find it now) about Google temps who were hired for just that kind of stuff. They were "released" after 6-12 months, and really did have psychological problems because of it. Of course no help or assistance of any kind was offered. What do you think this is, the 20th century?

    2. Re:Fighting the good fight by ark1 · · Score: 1

      Google already has employees who, when notified, investigate and remove obscene content which means they are already exposed to the worst of what Internet has to offer. When CP is reported, there is a legal requirement to act and remove such content within 24 hours or so. If Google can pull a decent solution, they will have a more proactive approach to dealing with this problem and will potentially save money as less human intervention will be required.

  15. ...What could go wrong? by bferrell · · Score: 1

    sheesh

    See the old story, by CM Kornbluth called the marching morons

  16. Exactly - and how do you define underage? by Viol8 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The age of consent in spain is 14, in the uk 16, in the USA 18 , so if there's a picture of a nude 15 or 17 year old in what country does it get to decided if its legal?

    While this may be a laudable effort I have the sneaking feeling the USA once again will be pushing its legal system and morality onto the rest of the world.

    1. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by Nephandus · · Score: 1

      It varies by state, but 16 was the mode age of consent in the US. IIRC, SCOTUS ruled all the gender based AoCs unconstitutional, so I don't know if that stuck or whether they went with the high or low age (mostly 16 male vs 17 female). You can even marry at 16 with parental consent in my state. Not sure what that means for photographically documenting the honeymoon. The child porn issue was always nuts in the US. It's not about protecting anyone. It's just about killing the icky with scorched earth policy.

      --
      "A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head."
    2. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Whst about topless on beaches? A lot of women don't even own a bikini top and just take off their T-shirt when they get there.

      Would those photos be illegal? Hell, there are nude parks in Berlin, to say nothing of a mile down a beach away from the main beach.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    3. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by rioki · · Score: 1

      age of consent != age to publish pornographic content

      AFAIK almost everywhere you have to be an adult (18/21) to view and publish pornographic content.

    4. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by J'raxis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The age of consent for porn is 18 throughout the entire United States.

      This has created all sorts of problems for people in that 16-18 age bracket taking photos of themselves or their partners, ruining their lives with chargers of "manufacturing child pornography," but hey, we have to "protect the children," don't we.

    5. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Generally, nudity is not considered pornographic unless the particpant is posing in a lewd fashion. It's also quite common in some parts of the world for babies to be born without wearing clothes at all!

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    6. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      In the UK, the age of consent is 16, but it is illegal to publish pictures of the activity if you are under 18.

    7. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      There is federal law defining this. 18 USC 2256, 2257.

      Many states are being coerced into adopting parallel state statutes. New Hampshire here passed one 3-4 years ago. But since anything posted on the Internet the feds can easily claim "travelled in interstate commerce," the feds will apply their laws regardless of what any state says.

    8. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by davidwr · · Score: 1

      The age of consent for porn is 18 throughout the entire United States

      You are correct insofar as Federal law is applicable.

      A person using a camera which is entirely made in the state they are using it in (and, if it's film, the film is made and developed "in-state" using "made in the state" equipment) then the 10th Amendment to the United States Constitution kicks in and the Feds will generally have no criminal jurisdiction.

      I say "generally" - if the image is transmitted over wireless means, over "the Internet," or over the telephone the presumption is that the feds have jurisdiction over the transmission, reception, and any copies received by the recipient. But if by some coincidence I lived in the state where Polaroid cameras and film used to be made and I obtained my camera and film from an in-state source, and shot a Polaroid, and gave it to someone else in the same state, and we never used a computer or phone to plan the exchange, it would be purely a matter for state and local prosecution.

      --
      Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    9. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by Zan+Lynx · · Score: 1

      You know, to someone just reading the law your argument seems like the only reasonable result. And I agree with you.

      But the Supreme Court doesn't. Oh no. A while back they decided that Interstate Commerce comes into effect if what you do in your state might somehow affect people in other states. Like by reducing the demand for the wheat in other states by growing too much wheat in your state and selling it, in your state.

      Yup. Perfectly ludicrus. But that's the law for you.

    10. Re:Exactly - and how do you define underage? by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the Tenth Amendment is completely meaningless nowadays, just like the other nine ahead of it. The feds' expansive treatment of the interstate commerce clause has been around at least since Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942), in which the feds stated that someone growing his own wheat was subject to federal regulation because it "affected" interstate commerce.

      Since 1942 the Supreme Court rulings have only moved us further away from the Tenth Amendment's original intent, not back toward it. Some states have tried to push back, for example New Hampshire's HCR 6 in 2011. But even if it passed, I'm sure the feds would have promptly ignored it.

  17. RTFA; it involves more than that. by sirwired · · Score: 2

    You are absolutely correct that this won't make child porn disappear. But from Google's standpoint, it will help keep their top-notch search engine (and other search engines) from being used to find it. In addition, it's more than making it "not searchable"; RTFA. This will also have "hooks" into law enforcement and ISPs.

  18. Re:This is getting out of hand by gweihir · · Score: 1

    It seems unlikely that there is much (or any at all) CP that can be found using a search engine (have not tried, but others have), as everything findable with a search engine is easily reported to law enforcement and traceable back to the ones putting it there. This strongly indicates that Google wanted (or was coerced) to implement image censorship and is just using CP as an easy and plausible to the clueless excuse. It is, of course, completely bogus. Once you look at the facts, it makes zero sense. And it is by far not the first attempt to justify a general censorship infrastructure with CP. The infamous German stop-signs come to mind (by now abolished as completely ineffectual for the stated purpose, but the amoral scum that established the law is still in office).

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  19. Re:This is stupid. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    I don't think they're going to be using computer vision to try to identify child porn, they'll probably be using a database of hashes (either file hashes, or some kind of "image hash" that can identify pics even if they've been resized, recompressed, added a watermark etc) of known child porn. It's slightly helpful and has a vanishingly small chance of false positives.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  20. Re:Not sure I agree 100% that this is a good idea. by GLMDesigns · · Score: 2

    The technology is out there. It will only get better (by a magnitudes of a 1000) in the next decade or so. It can be used by governments for all sorts of purposes - so the solution is not to limit the technology (which can't be done) but by limiting the government (which can be done).

    --
    If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
    Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
  21. Google is now the largest child porn collector by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "It's research, I swear"

  22. Re:Next step? by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Next step

    A goatse detection algorithm?

    I think that's stretching things a bit.

  23. Rare by Reliable+Windmill · · Score: 1

    In my 15 years on the Internet I've seen A LOT of nude imagery, but never ONCE come across child pornography. I get the feeling it's extremely rare, and the people who do find it spend a lot of hard time actually digging it up. What has happened now that urges Google to find new ways of combatting CP? Is there a sudden increase in posting of CP on public, easily accessed and indexed adult web sites?

    --
    Signature intentionally left blank.
    1. Re:Rare by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      It's not rare. However, what can be seen from that article is that (a), people aren't out there trying to meticulously dig it up using search engines, but are instead setting up massive filesharing websites to be used amongst themselves, and (b), the mention of "extensive encryption" in the article means most of the content is probably on Tor, Freenet, and similar services. In other words, what Google is doing will be absolutely useless to actually go after CP. But it will make them look good, look like they're "doing something," which is all any politically-astute entity really cares about---and it will provide them with perfect cover for trying out some new censorship and surveillance software they're developing for who-knows-what.

    2. Re:Rare by phorm · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I assumed that Google already filtered such things to some extent, but mostly that they weren't blatantly out there in the open.

      I've seen some pretty twisted/weird stuff come up when Safe-Search was off, but thankfully not CP.

  24. Misleading summary by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    The summary "By Algorithm, Not Human Review" implies that the algorithm is somehow evaluating pictures. In fact from TFA it is clear all it is doing is looking for copes of known existing images by hash-code. If it were examining images I would be worried about false positives, but as it just looks for know child porn I cannot see any down-side - this is a good move.

    1. Re:Misleading summary by Angrywhiteshoes · · Score: 1

      The summary "By Algorithm, Not Human Review" implies that the algorithm is somehow evaluating pictures. In fact from TFA it is clear all it is doing is looking for copes of known existing images by hash-code. If it were examining images I would be worried about false positives, but as it just looks for know child porn I cannot see any down-side - this is a good move.

      So they store CP and search for CP at the same time? Why is that good?

    2. Re:Misleading summary by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      The summary "By Algorithm, Not Human Review" implies that the algorithm is somehow evaluating pictures. In fact from TFA it is clear all it is doing is looking for copes of known existing images by hash-code. If it were examining images I would be worried about false positives, but as it just looks for know child porn I cannot see any down-side - this is a good move.

      So they store CP and search for CP at the same time? Why is that good?

      They only have to store the hash

  25. Impossible by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    Judges have already declared that porn is basically undefinable, and I disagree with them that you know it when you see it.
    Added to this that you cannot tell the difference between a 15 yo and a 21 100% of the time, sure 95% you would get it right with that big of a range, but not always.
    And trying to tell the difference between 18 and 17 or 16 if more like a 50% chance of getting it right, regardless of if you are a computer or a human being.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Impossible by hawkinspeter · · Score: 2

      Porn is undefinable partly because your culture has an important part in whether you consider something pornographic or not. Also, the intent of the individuals involved has a large impact. A naturist website might have pictures of underage nude children, but without being considered pornographic whereas a young teen (e.g. 15 years old) sharing a selfy of her breasts would be considered to be making CP.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    2. Re:Impossible by J'raxis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A lot of people are misunderstanding what Google is developing here.

      This is not "automated" censorware that would make its own decisions as to what should be censored. It's not going to analyze images and decide to censor them on its own (which would result in the kind of false positives you claim).

      It's censorware that would, once a live human Google employee has viewed a piece of content and made the decision that that particular content is to be suppressed, globally remove all copies of the same content from Google's database. See, one of the major obstacles censors face nowadays is the so-called "Streisand effect," where suppressing a piece of offensive content results in dozens, sometimes thousands, of people mirroring the content and publicizing their mirrors. If people want the information, they'll get it; censorship always fails, and in many cases completely backfires.

      But, software like this will ensure that in the future, if a corporation or a government wants to suppress information, they will be able to do so.

      Of course, Google and others will only use this censorware to go after CP, which as we all know "everyone" hates, so I guess everything is okay.

    3. Re:Impossible by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      OK, but if you actually read my post I was clearly saying that computers cannot do it, because it is simply impossible for anyone or thing to do it because they are indestrinquinable.
      Porn is often indistinguishable from non-porn, and children are indistinguishable from non-children. These are not just tiny edge cases, but significant portions of the content.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    4. Re:Impossible by davidwr · · Score: 1

      Judges have already declared that porn is basically undefinable,

      I've heard this was true of obscenity, but I've never heard that statement from a judicial source regarding porn.

      I'm not saying it isn't a true statement, and I'm not saying judges haven't said it. I'm only saying I haven't heard of a judge saying it.

      --
      Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    5. Re:Impossible by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      You might be right about the exact terminology, but I defining obscenity you be a first step in defining porn. And if you do not now what is obscene, than knowing what is pornographic is a lot harder. As when people are actually legally talking about porn, they are not just talking about anything arousing, but something the society considered arousing and obscene.

      "Obscenity is a legal term that applies to anything offensive to morals and is often equated with the term pornography. Pornography, however, is a more limited term, which refers to the erotic content of books, magazines, films, and recordings."

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  26. demand / supply by beefoot · · Score: 1

    So google is trying to control the supply of CP images? That itself will only increase the price of these images or worse violation of these children. If google is seriously wanting to help, they should help law enforcer to track down these people and bring them to justice.

  27. no profit here by paiute · · Score: 1

    1. Upload to Picasa picture of kids at birthday pool party holding balloon animals with long noses.
    2. End up on floor being beaten by local SWAT team.
    3. ??????
    4. Prison

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  28. Unintended consequences? by hawguy · · Score: 1

    If this system were 100% effective and preventing all known CP images from being searchable or even downloaded, then wouldn't that drive demand for brand new images to be created that don't trip the filters?

    1. Re:Unintended consequences? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      If this system were 100% effective

      It won't be, and no-one's expecting it to be. From the article it may be something as simple as storing hashes for specific files rather than specific images, which would hardly warrant the "new technology" status that the article has decided to give it. Even if it's more generic that, and is a hash for an image - allowing an image to be identified at different scales, exposures, or rotations - it's still not really new technology, nor is it particularly groundbreaking. It'll just be a handy tool which will take some of the repetitive workload off the shoulders (and minds) of humans - the same thing computers have been doing for the last 60 years.

      wouldn't that drive demand for brand new images to be created that don't trip the filters?

      I'd hazard a guess at "unlikely." Your hardened CP hunter near the top of the chain won't be Googling for this shit - he'll be getting it through his network of content-producing contacts.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  29. Re:Not a bad idea, but... by benlwilson · · Score: 1

    It would be a good thing to keep people from clicking on this sort of thing by accident ("accident?")

    I'm not too sure about that part.
    Consider a world where child porn exists but is totally hidden from everyone else's eyes.
    If people don't know that something is going on, or how prevalent it is, then they're less likely to take or support any action to stop it.

    Don't get me wrong, i not saying everyone should be exposed to CP, all i'm saying is that hiding it away may make the problem worse.

  30. Re:Not sure I agree 100% that this is a good idea. by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

    Now I will only see what Google has decided it is in my interest to see.

    They've been doing that for years.

  31. Reduce demand, reduce supply by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    What is the point of automatically removing child porn so it's not searchable. That's not the problem with child porn.

    The problem with child porn is real children are being really abused to make it. Making it "not searchable" doesn't stop that. .

    The point, I would expect, is that by removing the channel by which it circulates puts a barrier between the demand and the source, and hence reduces the incentive to make it. That would reduces the amount which is made.

    Arresting the people who are making it does.

    I don't think that this proposal was intended to be instead of arresting the people who make it.

    With that said, your point "The problem with child porn is real children are being really abused to make it." is a good one. By that argument, any such material which was not produced using real children-- anime, comics, art, even photorealistic digital modelling-- should not be included in the category.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:Reduce demand, reduce supply by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      The point, I would expect, is that by removing the channel by which it circulates puts a barrier between the demand and the source, and hence reduces the incentive to make it.

      That, in fact, was the judicial reasoning on the constitutionality of child pornography laws. At this point, though, I have my doubts that this sort of economic argument is valid; I doubt that the consumers of child pornography are paying for it in any way. After all, we are supposed to believe that the Internet has ruined the MPAA's and RIAA's business, and child pornography is obviously not subject to copyrights.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Reduce demand, reduce supply by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I don't really think this reduces the incentive to make it, although I agree there may be a weak advertiser advantage in having them out there. Very weak, since you can't really use brand names with this stuff.

      The real reason to eliminate this stuff is that no one should have to have this crap on their computers, even accidentally. I don't want to see it at all. If I came across instructions on how to make some illegal drug or how to do some crime, I could care less, because simply being exposed to that doesn't make me a criminal. Being exposed to child porn is horrible, and simply being in possession of those files is illegal. I lose absolutely nothing by removing them from the Internet. If only it was as easy to remove those who make that stuff in the first place.

    3. Re:Reduce demand, reduce supply by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

      So, you're saying that you want to censor everybody else in the world in order to keep you from "accidentally" viewing material you personally don't want to see.

      That is not an acceptable argument.

      I'm going to have to go donate some money to the ACLU and ask them to spend it on an education campaign; obviously there are still a lot of people who don't have a clue about the first amendment.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  32. Pornography definitions by intermodal · · Score: 2

    i think the problem with this system lies not in its intent but in its effects. I'm less concerned about whether it is searchable than about the abuses involved in creating it. I'm also concerned about the fact that we've seen charges involving 14-17 year old girls sending 14-17 year old boys their own pictures via their cellphones, marking them as felons and sex offenders for life. We need to figure out what is and isn't acceptable in our society and make it clear where that line is before matters get worse. There's true "child porn" and then there's "child" porn. There is a vast difference between the two, and while I'm not in favor of either personally, I do have a problem with treating them as if they were the same.

    --
    In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
  33. CP (disambigger-than-yours) by tepples · · Score: 1

    And if anybody protests, they can just report them for searching CP.

    At which point plausible deniability adds reasonable doubt. See also CP (disambiguation).

  34. AV scanners by Larry_Dillon · · Score: 1

    How come corporate Anti-Virus scanners don't scan (or have an add-on module to scan) for signatures of illicit images? If various government agencies have a collection of known infringing images, signatures could be generated, like viruses. Sure, there would likely be a way to fool it, but it would be step in the right direction.

    --
    Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
  35. Singing "Happy Birthday" in public is illegal by tepples · · Score: 1

    of course, child porn/abuse is illegal

    Singing "Happy Birthday to You" in public is illegal too. There are cases where current law is out of sync with social norms.

  36. Re:Not sure I agree 100% that this is a good idea. by Daas · · Score: 1

    Good grief, how hard is it to not be paranoid is this day and age? They don't want child porn to show up on their searches so they find a way to flag the images and not display them : that's it. If there comes a time when the technology is used malevolently to suppress political ideas, then you'll be able to bitch about it but going all "tinfoil hat" on it because there might me an hypothetical use which you don't like is just ridiculous.

    At the moment, Google uses mostly human beings to review flagged content so if their algorithm makes those reviewers sleep better at night, I'm all for it.

  37. Busytown by tepples · · Score: 1

    I'm more worried they'll go after the loli stuff.

    If they went after Lowly Worm, that'd be Scarry.

  38. If Google Is Succesfull by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

    In building an algorythim that can detect CP. Then they can combine it with their location detection methods to identify where it was produced. The big question is, are they then going to inform the LEO's based on the suspicion and ruin an individual who did not commit a crime? Are they becoming the new Thought Police ala "Orwells 1984"?

    Some of the things that Google has done are worthy efforts but this has the seeds of some serious abuse right from the beginning because if Google can do this for images, then they can do it for Music, Videos and everything else that people want censored.

    --
    Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
  39. Good intentions, but a bad idea. by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 2

    What about borderline content such as non-pornographic nudity, sexually explicit drawings of imaginary minors, and pornographic images of adults who look like teenagers? It's likely these will be branded as "child pornography", leading to images being suppressed that are legal in many jurisdictions including the United States.

    Once service providers start censoring content based on third party reports of alleged child pornography, it becomes much easier to supress other content as well. Organizations such as RIAA and MPAA would love to be able to flag arbitrary content as infringing and have ISPs block such content automatically, bypassing even the need to file DMCA takedown notices. Think of how often YouTube videos are incorrectly flagged as examples copyright infringement and extend this to all ISPs who check against Google's database, and you can see the problem.

    ISPs who participate in this system delegate the right to make judgment calls on material that isn't obviously illegal to the maintainers of a central database whose judgment may or may not be consistent with local law. Anything in the database is assumed to be illegal regardless of its actual legal status, and the ISPs just follow along instead of deciding individually whether or not the content is likely to survive a legal challenge. Once the system becomes widespread, ISPs may even feel it is necessary to follow it to avoid secondary liability for content posted by their users.

    This is yet another example of a worrying trend, where content alleged to be illegal or infringing is removed without due process and often with little regard for the law and relevant jurisprudence. It's no way to run a network that for many has become a primary means of communication.

    Internet users deserve better than to have their content blocked according to extralegal judgments with perhaps no bearing on local law, little or no chance of appeal, and no way to establish legal precedents protecting certain kinds of content.

    --
    "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
  40. Only if they don't get deputized by davidwr · · Score: 1

    If they get their employees deputized or otherwise "blessed" by the powers that be, then it's okay.

    You know who else is allowed to see child porn?

    Lawmakers and their staff members in the performance of official duties that require looking at it.

    According to someone I talked to in Washington a number of years ago, if a Congressperson needs some porn pulled for official use, the staff member he picks to get it for him is usually an older woman who presumably would have no interest in the contents beyond what is needed to verify it is what the Congressperson needs.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  41. In Russia, Yandex serves YOU by tepples · · Score: 1

    Also if it becomes known that Google actively filters certain political content or skews search results intentionally to push a political agenda, they may end up losing their #1 spot as search engine really fast (especially if at the same time the competition, most notably Bing because that's the only one that I know wiith serious money behind it, finally gets their act together and provides a proper alternative).

    Bing? Hardly. I'm betting more on DuckDuckGo powered by Yandex.

    1. Re:In Russia, Yandex serves YOU by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Bing's current state is poor, sure. Like the other search engines, Google trumps them all.

      To set up a viable search engine, you need a huge data centre to begin with. Otherwise you just don't have the critical mass of indexed web sites. So money is a requirement, lots of it, and if there's any company in this world that has a lot of money available to throw against such a problem it'd be Microsoft.

      Now if only they can get their act together and start making decent products...

  42. Re:Which still doesn't explain by omnichad · · Score: 1

    They could give the algorithm free range over their entire database of images and see if it flags the ones that are already flagged. But I agree, I don't see how you could be sure the extra ones it flagged or didn't flag are correct without viewing the images.

  43. Making it harder to find HELPS by davidwr · · Score: 1

    What is the point of automatically removing child porn so it's not searchable. That's not the problem with child porn.

    The problem with child porn is real children are being really abused to make it.

    Making it "not searchable" doesn't stop that. Arresting the people who are making it does.

    Similar statements can be made for most other crimes.

    If you make it hard to obtain drugs, only those really determined to get them will go to the effort.

    If you make it really hard to rob bank, only those really determined will bother.

    If you make it really hard to find child pornography, only those really determined will keep searching, the rest will give up.

    Of those who are looking for child porn for a sexual thrill, you've got several categories:

    • Those who will see it once or maybe a few times and won't do it again (the curious, the thrill-seekers).
    • Those who will continue to want it but will not "progress" to child molestation, trading, soliciting the creation of new porn, etc. AND who, if their supply is cut off, will not seek out "local, real-life" sexual outlets involving children or harming others (the "satisfied with just images" users).
    • Those who, if their supply is NOT cut off, will progress to more serious forms of abuse (the "escalating" users).
    • Those who, if their supply IS cut off, will progress to "local, real-life" forms of abusing others (the "substitution" users).
    • Those who, if they cannot find child porn at all, will NOT seek out "local, real-life" sexual outlets involving children or harming others.
    • Those who, if they cannot find child porn at all, WILL seek out "local, real-life" sexual outlets involving children or harming others.

    There is also the issue of "perceived demands drives supply" - if those producers who are doing it for revenue or for the thrill of seeing their "hit count" go up have more customers, on the whole the supply of "new" child porn is likely to be higher than if they believe there is little demand for their images. More "new" child porn being distributed in the future pretty much means more actual, real-world abuse in the future.

    My very strong hunch is that making it very hard to find child porn will be a net win for children, even if in particular situations you may have significant numbers of children whose dads molest them in person because he can't find his "methodone/child porn."

    Arresting the people who are making it does.

    I'm all with you but if these people are in a country with weak law enforcement in this area, there's not much that Interpol or *insert child-porn-hating country with good law enforcement here* can do in the short term to put the abuser behind bars.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  44. Mod parent up by davidwr · · Score: 2

    I get to see the REAL "dark Internet" every time my ISP's service goes out. *cue rimshot*

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  45. Kinda scary by phorm · · Score: 2

    I doubt that any sane person would have their browser start up with such things (even it they were into it). With that in mind, I would wonder how that happened.

    Either a virus/hijack or something as simple as some site changing the start page would be my guess, but would be scary as heck for a normal person. I could see some sick-minded people jacking other people's PC for lulz with such stuff, or just to taint the pool a bit. At the various least it warrants DBAN and a full reinstall, but in many cases it might be safest just to scrap the drive.

    At least it was visible. Worse would be if they were using hidden iframes or something like that to cause cache-tainting...

    Thankfully I've not run into anything like that on a personal machine. I did once work on a win2k box where an idiot contractor preferred to turn on anon FTP rather than creating himself an account, and left it on over the weekend. I never looked at the actual content stored on the box, but the filenames were repulsive enough that it got new drives and the old ones got the drill.

    1. Re:Kinda scary by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Firefox tries to automatically recover/restore if it wasn't closed down properly.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:Kinda scary by phorm · · Score: 1

      I guess I just assumed that nobody would be stupid enough to leave a browser in that state.
      But then again one would also hope that nobody would be twisted enough to look at that material in the first place...

  46. The United States virtually wiped out CP traffic by davidwr · · Score: 2

    In the early 1980s there were only two practical ways to transfer child porn: "Locally," which meant in person, by local courier, or by a "drop" or similar means, or "non-local" by courier, shipper, or the Post office.

    Finding other people to trade the stuff with in a way that the cops wouldn't easily find you was also very difficult.

    The US Postal Service inspectors and other police agencies were so effective that by the early 1980s it was said that child porn trading through the mail was virtually wiped out, AND that police were finding virtually zero "new" images.

    The advent of the computer scanner, particularly the color scanner, changed all of that. Now people could use computers to send images to each other 1-on-1 or via invite-only bulletin boards and, well, I don't need to go on from there.

    I remember the "bulletin board lists" of the 1980s. The "adult" boards were typically marked or in a separate list. I can't help but wonder how many of those had "secret, invite only" areas that held illegal images. If you know, please don't tell me. Unless the answer is "0" I don't want to know.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  47. (a 30% reduction). by davidwr · · Score: 1

    there was less alcohol during prohibition (a 30% reduction).

    So THAT'S why Grandpa complained that the bootleg booze he bought tasted 30% watered down!

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  48. Think of the Google Employees/contractors!!! by davidwr · · Score: 1

    At least this way reduces the number of workers they have which require serious therapy after viewing those images for manual filtering purposes;

    This actually makes sense.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  49. Disgusting idea by manoweb · · Score: 1

    Why don't they implement a filter for gay images? Or for all that Hollywood does not approve? Will governments be given some sort of "plug-in" access so they can remove what does not follow the state policy?

  50. Re:YOU FAIL IT by davidwr · · Score: 1

    I didn't click on the link, but based on the domain-name this actually might be marginally on-topic.

    +1 on-topic
    -infinity flamebait

    The question nobody will dare answer here and really nobody here wants to know is does the person who took the photograph get "+5 years - jailbait" or "+ 50 years - much too young to qualify as jailbait". I'm just going to assume "neither" so I can sleep at night.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  51. One "rough" way to define porn by davidwr · · Score: 1

    If more than a few minutes of screen-time of a feature film were similar to a given image or video clip, would that film receive an NC-17 (United States) or equivalent (non-US) rating based on sexual content or sexual content in combination with other content (e.g. sexual violence, etc.).

    For a video longer than about an hour, would the video as a whole receive an NC-17 or equivalent rating based on sexual content or sexual content in combination with other content (e.g. sexual violence, etc.)?

    If the answer is "yes" then it's almost certainly porn in the legal sense of the word.

    If the answer is "no" then it may or may not be "porn" in the legal sense of the word but IMHO it is deserving of "free speech" protection in countries with "free speech" protections as strong as those in the United States.

    One modification that would apply in "non porn" sexually suggestive images of minors or which appeared to be minors:

    If the actors or characters in the film are believed by the rating agency to be underage (18 in the US) or they appeared to be underage (or the ages were ambiguous), then modify the above to be "if the movie was re-shot so the actors and characters were believed to be of legal age and they appeared to be of legal age" to remove the situation where a given scene would be "rated R" if it had adult actors and characters but "NC-17" if the actors or characters were either minors or their status as adults was not clear.

    All of the above applies to live-action shots. It's my understanding that in the United States at least, the Supreme Court has ruled that non-obscene hand-drawn and computer-drawn imagery which does not rely on an actual child being filmed is outside the scope of "child pornography" laws because it is protected as "free speech."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  52. false positives and angry models by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 1

    If they mean "all underage" and not just "blatantly children", good luck with that. There are no characteristics that will distinguish between 17 and 18, or even older. What is the software going to think of Kat Young, for example? What about models who are just small?

    Also are they going to attempt to sort through drawings at all, considering they are legal in some jurisdictions and not others?

    I sense false positives and angry models in Google's future.

    Most models are just small. The average female porn star is a 5'5" brunette woman who weighs 117lbs and has B-cup breasts, and measures 34"-24"-34". So half are smaller. The lightest is apparenly only 74lbs.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  53. Exactly by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Realistically this is just a feel good effort.

    "Look at us fight CP!! (Pay no attention to the NSA man behind our curtain.)"

    Kinda like there was suddenly a bumper crop of bomb and airplane threats the first few weekdays after Snowden broke.

  54. Re:Google has the worlds largest cp collection by mendax · · Score: 2

    Well, maybe not Google but the U.S. Department of Justice. They have a database of all child pornography images known to law enforcement. Whenever there is a prosecution, the images go to them to determine if there are any new ones. They also try to identify who the child actually is with some success. So, in conjunction with them, it would not be difficult to create a database of "images" that Google is proposing. The question is why it's taken them so long? This DOJ database has been around for quite a while.

    --
    It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
  55. It does help solve a problem by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

    If 16 year-old little Johnny is downloading porn at home, it is not unreasonable to think he might want to see images of naked 16 year-old girls, especially if he already has in real life (which is not illegal if consensual). Having the Google child porn block might save little Johnny's father from having to spend 20 years in prison. I have children, so I would definitely use it.

  56. Re:This is stupid. by L1mewater · · Score: 1

    Yes, this is the most likely route they're taking. My fear is that this may actually promote the creation of new child porn. Google only knows to filter for hashes of images they already have, so this would add more value to the having the newest, latest stuff that is not in the database yet.

  57. Re:This is stupid. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    I don't think it'll make any difference, most of the "market" for this stuff is happening on darknets and the content is just spilling over onto the Web. If Google can filter it out it's no real loss, unless CP sites are somehow operating profitably in the open.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  58. Re: drawings by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 1

    "So that type of drawings and computer generated pictures are currently illegal in the USA."

    Not necessarily. The key distinction appears to be whether or not the images are legally obscene according to the so-called Miller test. Obscenity has never enjoyed constitutional protection, so ultimately the PROTECT Act of 2003 changes nothing.

    Besides, USA is not the whole world.

    --
    "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
  59. Re:Google has the worlds largest cp collection by spire3661 · · Score: 1

    That is some really bad logic.

    --
    Good-bye
  60. Re:Google has the worlds largest cp collection by kasperd · · Score: 1

    Police are legally allowed to possess contraband in the course of an investigation; private-sector entities aren't

    I consider that to be a real problem with the current laws. There are some data, which can be used for good or for bad purposes. Google has lots of data, they also have the computing architecture to store and process all of this data, and they have the expertise. I firmly believe Google is in a better position to do this sort of data mining than authorities. It is not just about images of child abuse, but also about correlating that with other data, which would not be illegal on its own.

    If Google by performing mining across a little bit of child pornography along with lots of legal data is able to produce an output, which can track down the people who were abusing the child in the first place, then I consider that to be a good use of the data, regardless of what the law says about that practice.

    The potential for Google to help track down some of these kids and get them out of the abuse is so important, that it is unfortunate that such efforts are jeapordized by the current laws. That makes it only so much nicer to hear that Google is doing an effort in this area. Whether Google is breaking the law or not in the current effort is not important to me, as the goal of the effort is to go after much worse crimes.

    I consider abuse of children to be a much worse crime than possession of child pornography. Most people agree that it is worse, but some people seem to think it is not that much worse. Would the average person think it was ok to let 100 people guilty of possession of child pornography go without punishment, if it meant one more person guilty of child abuse could get caught?

    --

    Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  61. Re:Google has the worlds largest cp collection by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    No, it isn't are you trying to detect traces of drugs? Why not simply work with microscopic amounts?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  62. Re:Google has the worlds largest cp collection by jimshatt · · Score: 2

    Because you only need a little of a *specific* drug to be able to detect that drug. If you want to create some sort of sensor that detects *all* drugs in general, you need small quantities of *every* drug, to be able to discover similarities. This is impossible, probably, because 'drugs' is to broad a concept.
    Similarly, with child porn, you'd need only one sample of every instance of child porn. There's no use keeping 20 copies of the same image. But because the smallest amount of each instance is that instance itself, you need to keep 1 copy of as much instances as possible.

    This is really common sense, so I actually don't even know why I'm explaining such a simple concept.

  63. Title Should be "Google starts CP Repo" by Angrywhiteshoes · · Score: 1

    How does Google get away with storing so much CP? Shouldn't this be handled by some gov entity?

  64. Re:Google has the worlds largest cp collection by Angrywhiteshoes · · Score: 1

    Is this going to flag baby bath tub photos as porn? Or is there an algorithm to detect penetration or other signs of exploitation?

  65. Oh great, I can see where this leads... by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

    "According to these evidences, that I can not, by law, show to anyone, but that get flagged by the new GoogleThinkOfTheChildren algorithm, your picture named ProofOfPoliceAbuse.jpg is actually child porn and needs to be censored."

    Now that people accept the idea that the NSA can read anything in Google, how long will it take them to accept the idea that it also has a write access?

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  66. Google's just kissing tyrannical arse by JimtownKelly · · Score: 1

    Sounds like another trojan horse guised as somehow good for society.

    --
    -- Jimtown Kelly
  67. and because Google enjoys playing with algorithms by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Also, Google's engineers LIKE nifty algorithms. They like to play around and see if they can get a computer to do X, whether that's speech recognition, driverless cars, whatever. Once the engineer had a working algorithm, the suits could choose between two options:
    A) show results with child porn
    B) show results without child porn

    Once you have the option, B seems to be a fairly obvious choice.