Australian Government Rejects Data Retention Law After Report

mask.of.sanity writes "The Australian Government has shelved its plans to proactively store communications data of every citizen ostensibly to assist with law enforcement and intelligence efforts. The shelving (video) comes after a scathing report by Australian parliamentarians who investigated the Government's plans, and three months ahead of a federal election in which the Government is expected to lose office."

Comments

The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

They will have their asses handed to them in the next election.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Squidlips]

Ha. Voters are idiots; you just watch Nancy Pelosi get re-elected despite her stance on surveillance...

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right. All they have to do is say "Think of the Children" and accuse everyone who supports the other guys of being pedophile sympathizers.

Really, do you think that doesn't work in practice?

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Sponge Bath]

Voters are idiots

Are you saying you don't vote, or that you are an idiot?

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or doesn't live in her district.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[FatLittleMonkey]

Parent AC didn't mean "...because of this"; the current government is pulling record low numbers in the polls. They are hated and are going to be destroyed in the next election.

And it sucks, because the leader of the next government is a US-style neo-conservative religious nutter. And his party is dominated by True Believers in US-style trickle-down economics. The current government's incompetence is going to allow something much worse to take over, not only to control the lower House (and hence the executive) but likely the Senate, giving them basically a rubber stamp on anything they want to shove through.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Modal logic was discovered a long time ago, wasn't it? I'm sure you've had plenty of time to learn it.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shhh don't wake the bogans.

At least the median income in Australia is still A$66,820*

The Chinese haven't quite sucked out the marrow yet.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Em Adespoton]

Voters are idiots

Are you saying you don't vote, or that you are an idiot?

In Australia, it's illegal not to vote. So you're either a voter or a criminal (I guess at one point in AU history, most people were probably both).

Re:The current government is doomed.

[FatLittleMonkey]

It's a $50 fine. Plus you only have to get your name crossed off.

(And it's apparently easier to get out of than jury duty. "I had to work all day", "my youngest had a stomach bug and couldn't leave the house", etc.)

Re:The current government is doomed.

[interval1066]

Don't count yer chickens, ace.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

"use everyone who supports the other guys of being pedophile sympathizers."

      And what's wrong with that?!! Versus the corporate crooks who abuse us with faulty products, banking thieves that rob millions for billions, and political pricks who lie and cheat, then there's murderers and rapists, and every other liar and cheat out there, in comparison pedophiles are practically angels.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[TapeCutter]

Yep, it's rare for people to actually have to pay the fine, however we consistently get 90+% of voters turning up to a state/federal election which is a GoodThing(TM).

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I dislike the guy he is not a "US-style religious nutter", just a garden variety pious Catholic.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Squidlips did not use any modality in his statement that "Voters are idiots". Furthermore saying a form of logic was discovered is like saying someone has discovered a new number. They are constructs. Models made by human cognizance to describe what perceptibly does or does not exist (sometimes both and neither). Perhaps you should have paid more attention when studying such things.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

it's true tony abbott is the worst thing about the liberal party and it just so happens he is also the leader. However the country is hardly going to change depending on the leadership. The election is just there for the illusion of control for the public.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[TapeCutter]

Yes, this is a non-story in Australia.

The current government's incompetence is going to allow something much worse to take over

No, the incompetence of the Australian voter will be responsible for that. However numerous polls also show that the majority of voters would have preferred to be choosing from Rudd vs Turner. Turner leads the traditional side of conservative politics, the side that still has some principles and common respect for their ideological opponents.

The fundamental problem in Oz is that the mining unions are pulling the strings in the Labor party and the mine owners are pulling the strings in the Liberal party, and Murdoch controls 70% of the press. On many subjects the union and the bosses are in lockstep agreement, eg: the unionists ousted Rudd because of his mining tax plans, their bosses ousted Turner because of his plans to regulate carbon emissions. Neither the union leaders or mine owners want anything to get in the way of digging holes in the ground, everybody seems to have forgotten about Tony's prediction of economic Armageddon, the carbon tax was instituted a year ago and we are still one of the healthiest economies on the planet.

Disclaimer: I believe we should exploit our resources but not at the cost of our natural life support systems, for instance coal mines on cape york are potentially a threat to the great barrier reef. The reef is not only a valuable tourist attraction it is also a massive fish nursery, The shelf waters around Australia's coast are the breeding ground for much of the southern hemisphere's fisheries, the planetary food web is not something you can put a price on, it's essential natural infrastructure that (if given a chance) is so productive it allows some of us enough time to do things like dig massive holes and sell magic rocks to China.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet you still wind up with a government that's competing with the UK and USA for the Police State Award.

Unless people vote for one of the non-standard parties, this shit will just keep happening and things will just keep getting worse. The main parties are rigged so that choice between them is an illusion.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[NFN_NLN]

Shhh don't wake the bogans.

At least the median income in Australia is still A$66,820*

The Chinese haven't quite sucked out the marrow yet.

I thought the AUS/CAN/US dollar were roughly on par. Does this imply a household income of > 100K (with both parents working)?
If not then the housing boom really is unsustainable!

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying you don't vote, or that you are an idiot?

Only an idiot doesn't realize that every one of us is an idiot at times.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess at one point in AU history, most people were probably both

You guess wrong.

For the few decades that NSW and Tasmania especially (Victoria had an early penal settlement, but only really took off with the free settlers under John Batman) took the convicts the Americas could no longer accommodate (due to that pesky revolution), there was no universal suffrage. Voting, such as it was being restricted to men of property. By 1858 when the only property requirement in NSW became a penis, it has been a decade since the arrival of the last convict ship and the number of people in prisons represented a tiny fraction of the total population. Nor was voting then compulsory.

Australia, as a political as distinct from a geographical entity, only came about on 1 January 1901, by which time those who even bore traces of transported convicts in their blood were swamped by the descendants of gold prospectors and other free settlers. At the current time, the rate of incarceration, in Australia remains far below that of the US, despite recent NSW governments are trying their hardest to catch up.

If you want to use 'criminal' in its strictest meaning, ie. someone who at one time in their life committed some kind of legal offence, I'd suggest close to 100% of voters in any democracy are criminals.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Capsaicin]

It's a $50 fine. Plus you only have to get your name crossed off.

I got fined once for failing to vote in a local council election, it was $10 back then. I tossed the fine in the bin, I mean a council election, pull the other one. That was close to a quarter of a century ago ... I'm still waiting for them to get back to me so I can mount my brilliant legal argument about local govt. not having any constitutional standing.

So now they are going have this referendum to give local govt constitutional standing?!!!! OMG, is this going to be retrospective? I'm packing it mate! ;)

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Capsaicin]

Yet you still wind up with a government that's competing with the UK and USA for the Police State Award.

Do we?!

I mean the inept Australian government actually felt it necessary to go to parliament to get legislative power to do what the UK and USA Police states just went ahead and did.

In Australia we were displeased because we were informed about the government's intentions. The US and UK governments did not see fit similarly to displease their respective constituents. The Australian government has backed down in the face of both public and parliamentary opposition to the plan. Do you seriously believe the US or the UK are about dismantle their machinery? For all the articles the Guardian may publish?

Not much of a competition I would say.

Democracy ... I'm occasionally hopeful that it might work after all.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[fido_dogstoyevsky]

They will have their asses handed to them in the next election.

Unless they are already in possession of their donkeys, in which case handing over won't be necessary.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[fido_dogstoyevsky]

Ha. Voters are idiots; you just watch Nancy Pelosi get re-elected despite her stance on surveillance...

Who is this "Nancy Pelosi" of whom you speak? For which House of Parliament is she standing?

Re:The current government is doomed.

[mjwx]

Yep, it's rare for people to actually have to pay the fine, however we consistently get 90+% of voters turning up to a state/federal election which is a GoodThing(TM).

Not necessarily, how many donkey's are we getting per election.

Polly's viciously contest the coveted top spot on the ballot as a lot of people just go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I encourage highly apathetic people to start on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th box when they do this to try and introduce some randomness into this system. Fortunately the order on most ballot papers in Oz are randomly selected.

Aussies in general are reluctant to get involved in their own governance. I get a lot of people complaining about speed zone sign placements, many of them legit complaints (I.E. 5 changes in the space of 1 KM) but do you think one of them has even written the local council?

Re:The current government is doomed.

[fido_dogstoyevsky]

Voters are idiots

Are you saying you don't vote, or that you are an idiot?

In Australia, it's illegal not to vote. So you're either a voter or a criminal (I guess at one point in AU history, most people were probably both).

And by some standards, many members of Parliament still are.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Turner? Did you mean Turnbull?

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Gumbercules!!]

I see it another way. I see it more that we have 2 choices and they're fundamentally the same thing. It's not about Gillard and Abbott (they're figure heads, we don't have a president here, the "leader" is a mouthpiece, not a policy maker - policies are made behind closed doors and then communicated via these mouthpieces).

So I couldn't care less who the leader of either party is. When it comes to policies, though, they're both much the same thing. Both parties are so close to each other that the only real difference that comes is how the market reacts to one or the other. Yes there are minor differences - but they're minor only.

If you truly think we're going to take the country in a whole different direction by changing from Labour to The Coalition, I've got a bridge to sell you. :-P

Re: The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're better off getting apathetic people to write nothing at all on the ballot. You don't have to fill it in whatsoever, and leaving it blank messes up the count less.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Bremic]

Of course, Australia is likely to change government in September, and then we will have the government for which dealing with constituents will be a much lower priority - right after changing the filter in the coffee machine.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. Australians are absolutely rolling in money, but if you were to listen to them speak, you'd think they were all under the poverty line.

I've actually seen people defend needing government handouts at $250k a year because of the expense of putting 3 kids through an elite Sydney private school....

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Bremic]

Aussies in general are reluctant to get involved in their own governance.

This is what is going to cause Australia to follow the rest of the world into economic, social and environmental disaster. Many people (Australians) I speak to feel that we need to change the government, but when you ask them why they have little to no idea what the government actually does or how it works. The government we have now has not done a great job, but they have done extremely well considering the global issues going on - but many Australians tend to care nothing about the rest of the world unless it's broadcast in prime time in a sitcom format.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Bremic]

The only reason he isn't a "US-style religious nutter" is he doesn't have the charisma or personality to carry it off. He wants to be. Look at the speeches he manages to get out without tripping over his own tongue and he is very much striving to be this. I can't imagine how bad things will get when this ideology, combined with his frequent confusion when taken off-script or dealing with foreign governments, gets into power. Ask me again in 12 months and I am afraid we will all have an answer.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this imply a household income of > 100K (with both parents working)?

Average individual wage is now around 85K pa.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Bremic]

I agree the country won't change too much, but the quality of life for the average Australian will. Look at what is happening in Queensland and Victoria; leasing of National Parks, decimation of the Public Service directly impacting services (wait times at a lot of public services is up over 200%), corporations given exclusions to local planning regulations...
All of these sort of things make a regular impact on the day to day life of people living at or below the median wage.

Of course, the NBN plans alone are a good enough reason to resist a change of government.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[mjwx]

Aussies in general are reluctant to get involved in their own governance.

This is what is going to cause Australia to follow the rest of the world into economic, social and environmental disaster. Many people (Australians) I speak to feel that we need to change the government, but when you ask them why they have little to no idea what the government actually does or how it works. The government we have now has not done a great job, but they have done extremely well considering the global issues going on - but many Australians tend to care nothing about the rest of the world unless it's broadcast in prime time in a sitcom format.

This,

The Labor government hasn't done a terribly good job, but it was passable. However the Murdoch run press wants to paint it as the end of the world.

Really, I view the Murdoch press as a greater threat to Australia than all the politicians put together... Murdoch ultimately does not have to answer to the constituents.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[ozmanjusri]

I've seen her on TV. I think she stars in some kind of "Judge Judy" style sitcom/reality show.

It doesn't seem very funny, but then again I've never really got American humour.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realise that the government has (with the blessing of ASIO) introduced secret mandatory internet filter via IP blacklisting and deliberately did not tell the public or other arms of the government not once but TWICE, right?

They have only admitted to doing it AFTER being found out afterwards, and they did it in such a way that it would be concealed from the home user - the blacklisted sites just timed out.

I have no disillusions regarding changing the government, either; Liberal will be just as bad as Labor in this regard.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus you only have to get your name crossed off.

I work as an election official on election day. Posting as an AC to protect anonymity.

Legally, you are incorrect. Under the Electoral Act, it is your duty to vote, and an offence not to. Practically, of course, you are correct. Because voting is secret, nobody can tell if you voted... unless you admit it on Slashdot.

What I wanted to say is that I have one request, and one request only, on behalf of election officials everywhere: Please take the ballot papers that have been issued to you and put them in the ballot box. Fill them out or don't. Write a slogan on them. I don't care, do anything you want... just put them into the ballot box in one piece.

There have been some very close elections around the world recently, including Australia. What makes Australia different is that there has been no question of electoral fraud.

We don't often stop to consider just how remarkable this is. Look at the mess of the 2000 presidential elections in the US, or the previous elections resulting in a hung parliament in the UK, or Italy (just Italy; I don't think I need to expand on that). We may not know how to run a country, but we know how to run an election. We do it bloody well, and this is something you can be proud of.

One of the tenets of security is that you analyse known threats and look for patterns, and one of the mechanisms that is commonly used to rig elections around the world is to selectively remove ballot papers from being considered in the count. There are various methods to do this, from stealing and destroying them, to changing the rules of formality post facto (hanging chads, anyone?).

It's an unbelievably huge deal if ballot papers go missing. Removing ballot papers from the polling centre does not send any message to your politicians, nor does it help change the system. All it does is causes a major headache for already-exhausted casual employees. (Don't forget, we've been at the polling centre since an hour before it opened, and have to stay there until counting finishes. It's a very long day.)

Whatever you think about compulsory voting, or the state of the political system and the major parties, it is not the fault of the Australian Electoral Commission or their casual staff. So... yeah, please put the damn papers in the damn box.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

Sincerely,
Your friendly election official

Re:The current government is doomed.

[FatLittleMonkey]

Abbott is what Santorum (who comes from the same Catholic faction) would look like if he had to run in a country like Australia.

However, I meant "US-style neo-con" and "religious nutter". Not "US-style religious nutter". For the latter, you need Steve Fielding's party.

[Hey, secular Americans, our ultraconservative evangelical movement had to create a third party, which got about 2% in the last election. (7% in even the most conservative state.) Livin' the dream baby.]

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Capsaicin]

And it sucks, because the leader of the next government is a US-style neo-conservative religious nutter. And his party is dominated by True Believers in US-style trickle-down economics.

I've been watching Tony's political career for longer than most (he buttonholed me outside the Fisher Library in 1978 I think it was). He was a certifiable nutter then* and many of my cohort of students from that degree have been living in fear these past 35 years that one day we would be facing the prospect of his leading an Australian government. [*To be to fair to Mr Abbott in the '70s, he was in this more than outbalanced by members of the "loony Left." We tend to forget that the rejection of material reality which now forms the central plank of the neo-con/Tea Party ideology, was once the province of the more radical sects of the Left. For instance the ideologically motivated denial of Climate Science is an echo of the denial of Plate Tectonics which was at one time held to be inconsistent with Marxist dialectical-materialism! A position which would no doubt have perplexed even Dr Marx.]

However, it appears to me that, like most of us, Tony has mellowed with age. I find his opportunistic "blood pledge" to repeal a market based solution for addressing carbon usage with an ironically more "socialist" orientated Direct Action approach to be highly reprehensible (and one hopes unsuccessful). Similarly, once in government, one hopes they will recognise the folly of their ways in regard to the NBN rollout. In general, however, I don't think we should be overly concerned about the radicalism of his current political position. His adherence to "trickle-down economics," for example, is I think is vastly overstated, my feeling is that his personal economic position has developed from the kind of Catholic corporatism preached by his mentor B.A. Santamaria. But here too he has become less ideological. Moreover his views in regard to the academy (and pure research) are far more enlightened than anything we've witnessed in Australia's recent anti-intellectual history. To the point that some of use working in the sector (traditionally part of the natural constituency of the centre left) dare to hope for some small moves to correct the wrecking of Australia's university system which began with the Dawkins "Reforms."

However, not only has Tony's ideology been mollified by age, his ambition too has overtaken his principles. Remember this is the guy who, we are to believe, when bargaining for government at the start of this hung parliament, told an independent either that he would "sell his arse," or do "anything but sell his arse," to become P.M.

It's not what Tony believes that you need to worry about. It is the editorial policy of the company which publishes the Daily Telegraph and the Herald Sun is that will once again determine the policy direction of the country. Witness now what happens to any government that dares not tow the line! Abbott's ambition will preclude him from making the same mistake.

The current government's incompetence ...

A case in point. While this has perhaps not been the most stellar government in Australia's history, the fact that even you have been sold the idea of the government's supposed "incompetence" is a the real concern. True, there have been political mistakes made. Most recently Ms Gillard's raising of the "abortion" issue. An crude attack on Mr Abbott's catholic faith, and an issue on which Tony, his ambition taking the driver's seat, has taken a leaf out of Pilate's book. Made all the more inept by the fact that the coded term "reproductive rights" would have satisfied the present audience just as well. Or allowing the Carbon "Tax" (which is actually a trading scheme with only a temporary lead-in tax like structure) to be known as a TAX (booword!).

However, putting aside emotive public discourse for a moment ... any dispassionate assessment of the current gover

Re:The current government is doomed.

[FatLittleMonkey]

However numerous polls also show that the majority of voters would have preferred to be choosing from Rudd vs Turner.

Assuming you meant Turnbull, then no. He was about as popular a Gillard. [I do not understand the popularity of Rudd.]

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realise that the government has (with the blessing of ASIO)

Cart meet horse.

... secret mandatory internet filter via IP blacklisting

And this is relevant to a comparison of .au vs .us and .uk metadata gathering ... how?

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Gumbercules!!]

Yeah I'm not sold. I recon the govt will change in September and life won't be any better or worse than it would have been under the existing one (of course, this can never be verified).

We basically have a cyclic 2 party system in Australia and although it's ludicrously inefficient, it basically works. We actually need to change the government every decade or so. We need Labour to spend money on big infrastructure and we need Liberal to earn the money to spend - a spend and save cycle. If we had one or the other for too long, we'd wind up in too much debt (and we're almost there now) or we'd wind up to run down on the public infrastructure. If you leave Labour in charge for too long, the middle class winds up bearing endless tax increases and benefit cuts and eventually, they begin to crack financially, which slows the entire economy, which means less money for NBNs or other things you care about. If you leave the Libs in for too long, then the disadvantaged suffer over time and public services start to get over sold or run down, which means things cost more for the average person, which means they have less money and the economy slows down, which means less money for NBN's etc.

The problem comes in when one party has their turn and doesn't do their part. I think the other problem is that many things are becoming too expensive for either side to maintain, yet we still require them (i.e. healthcare).

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct. This Government has been one of the best performing in history by the numbers and aren't actually that unpopular, and they'll be voted out because the opposition (whose policies are thin on the ground, and those that have appeared are actually quite worrying in their collective ideological bent, but much of which will go over the heads of the mouthpieces here for similar ideologically based reasons...) has managed to convince the media to assist in an what is hard to describe as an ongoing smear campaign at multiple levels.

Mainstream people are starting to lose faith in the ability of the media to report accurately here. A recent radio poll found that 99% of respondents were sick of it. The readership of some australian newspapers has actually halved in the last month. I'm looking at you, The Age.

I don't like to conspiracy IRL, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the GP was part of the Fairfax grassroots team. That's how ridiculous this has gotten.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[FatLittleMonkey]

This. A thousand times this.

I despise people who say "They're both the same". The only time they are the same is when people are watching, when parliament is divided. As soon as people stop watching, you see their true colours. (Such as when Howard's government got control of both houses. And the same thing will happen with Abbott after the next election.)

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Gideon Fubar]

Turns out it was both unfeasible (i mean, it was obvious even to people who weren't going to have to implement it) to monitor everything and not everyone here is a complete idiot. Lucky for us, i guess.

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/House_of_Representatives_Committees?url=pjcis%2Fnsl2012%2Freport.htm

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Gideon Fubar]

Wish i could mod you up.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[nothajan]

They are hated by the major media conglomerates and are going to be destroyed in the next election by the media.

FTFY.
All the alleged hate towards the Labor Party is spin by Murdoch/Fairfax.
No reasonably intelligent person I have met, has indicated that they'd prefer Abbott over Gillard.
The Opposition / media have resorted to bully tactics, since they have no substantial basis on which to attack Labor/Gillard.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Gideon Fubar]

I've never understood why some people are so concerned about big government but then give monopolies to big businesses.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Gideon Fubar]

To be fair, those people were lawyers and politicians.

But yes, GP... it is about as bad as the AC claims. People here appear to be encouraged to have no frame of reference.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Liberals always listen to their constituents, you just fail to realise who their constituents are. I mean, it's in the best interests of the people of Australia to sell off the government held (previously) telecommunications monopoly whole, it maximises the share price for those who were lucky enough to be on the list to buy a ton of shares, and people just love it when tax cuts are announced for high income earners and tax hikes for lower income earners...

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, everyone in the country who is simultaneously capable of mathematics and anything approaching empathy is getting close to freaking the fuck out.

We actually now have people claiming that our debt (@less than 20% of GDP) is the highest in history and "completely unsustainable". Any attempt to provide this crew with historical facts that contradict this claim are met with purely partisan assumptions... And don't bother to mention the US or Euro economies or they'll put their fingers in their ears and accuse you of being a liar until they start crying from emotion.

Please take your goddamn neocons back. We don't need this bullshit.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Bremic]

By definition a constituent is a voter; but I agree the perception from the likely future government of what a constituent is is very different to the dictionary definition.

Selling government owned assets is fantastic. You make a heap of money, get to ensure that all future profits go to those who had enough money and warning to buy up the asset (either in total or shares) and in 10 years time when the profit from the sale is gone and you no longer have the profit from the asset, you aren't in power any more and don't have to care that the country can no longer afford stupid things like health care and infrastructure.

Sorry, someone must be spraying sarcasm around here.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Pseudonym]

[...] but only really took off with the free settlers under John Batman

I think you meant John Pascoe Fawkner.

(Yes, I know, generations of Victorian schoolkids like the idea of living in a city founded by Bruce Wayne's alter ego.)

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Bremic]

Not sure why this got modded down, it makes good solid sense to me.

Thanks for posting.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Bremic]

Thank you.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, thats very true.

Its good to see many pirate party AU references in the house of representatives document, here:

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/House_of_Representatives_Committees?url=pjcis/nsl2012/report.htm

Keep up the good fight, PPAU! Both the mainstream parties agree with each other on this subject, and it is looking to be worse if there is a change of government as the opposition seem to understand technology and what they are doing with it a lot less (killing the NBN, for example). On security and data retention, Senator Scott Ludlam of the greens is asking the right questions in the right places, though.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Capsaicin]

Thank you for reading. After putting this much effort into a post, this far down the thread, it's always gratifying to know that at least one set of eyes has seen it. :)

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

... When it comes to policies, though, they're both much the same thing ...

No, they're not. Yes, they have a lot in common. That's because every country is driven by big business and the same problems: Defense, immigration, healthcare, policing/justice, taxation. But how much did Howard really achieve? His GST is a great boon. His privatization of healthcare was mediocre. His privatization of education sucked. Copying the 'war on terror' and taking us into Iraq bordered on criminal. Economically he gave handouts to house buyers and pushed the interest rate down, both of which pushed up inflation. We're extremely lucky the Aussie banks couldn't copy the crimes of the US banks. His only future planning consisted of a retirement fund for politicians. The mediocrity of the current government is positively delightful in comparison. And it still developed disability insurance (as a tax) and constructed a broadband network.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Capsaicin]

On security and data retention, Senator Scott Ludlam of the greens is asking the right questions in the right places, though.

I agree. While the Greens hearts often seem (to those of us thus inclined) to be in the right place, I fear their the quality of their parliamentarians is often wanting. Ludlam, however not only has his heart in place, he is right across his portfolio (not only as it regards security and data rentention). His knowledge and understanding is at least the equal of the minister- and shadow minister-'s. IMO by far the Greens most impressive member. Not bad for a BA!

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

i expect people seeking to "punish" labor by changing sides this time are more likely to go green than liberal. remember how close the last election was, and how it came down to who could cut a deal with the minor parties and independents? people now know that minor party and independent votes aren't "wasted", and minor parties and independents are more likely to actually represent the individuals voting

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

No mate.

The problem comes from people assuming that this system is somehow immutable, and that one party is just as good as another at the end of the day.

As soon as the kind of partisan politics that has been seen in the US became a thing that was valid in Australia, the system was fucked. Both parties now leave deliberately poor policies lying around just so they can spring traps on the new government when they're no longer in power. We've got one fairly competent ex-union lawyer who seems to actually be doing a good job on the policy front (yeah, maybe she's actually too good to be PM) and a Jesuit educated career politician who has secretly been in trouble with the law a dozen times (mostly for assault of political opponents, i shit you not) but still manages to look like the right kind of businessguy for the rightwing powerbrokers.

Imagine Hillary vs. Dubya. Our only saving grace is our lack of a large military.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[FatLittleMonkey]

Not to disagree with most of your points, but managing a hostile media is exactly the skill that is needed by any government.

As a contrasting example, the Libs did not fight criticism from the ABC by coddling them. They viciously attacked and undermined their reputation. They actively complained about every story on the ABC networks (TV/Radio) that didn't support their spin, as if it was wildly biased. They spun the idea of the "unfair, far left, biased" ABC as if it were a scientific fact. They did the same thing to Fairfax. Hell, even The Oz at one point.

Labor MPs believe as you do (and I do) about the Murdock press and yet they believe they could somehow win them over, play nice. It is stupid and naive.

Similarly, it was obvious that Rudd screwed the party with his behaviour during the leadership challenge, creating a bad smell for Gillard, and gifting Libs/Murdock with a year of free kicks. It should also be obvious (it was to me anyway) that when Gillard didn't get a "honeymoon" bounce in the polls, that Rudd would white-ant her from the back bench (as Beazley did with his rivals, Howard with his.) The obvious thing to do is run a long term smear campaign against Rudd, chip away at his affable "nice guy" public persona (and there is, apparently, plenty of material which could be used) before he recovered enough party-room support to go along with his public support. Instead, nothing.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[nosferatu1001]

Actually the UK govt DID get approval - RIPA contains permission for GCHQ to perform the monitoring they have performed Apparently noone eralised this permission was there, however.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[nosferatu1001]

It is relevant to a discussion on comparison of transparency of governments.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[skegg]

Polly's viciously contest the coveted top spot on the ballot ... Fortunately the order on most ballot papers in Oz are randomly selected.

Correct Our "representatives" don't actually get a say in their ballot position.

Aussies in general are reluctant to get involved in their own governance.

Historically yes, particularly when compared to how politically active citizens are in other countries. In some European & South American countries, you KNOW when an election is around the corner; mass rallies, demonstrations, strikes, etc.

However I believe this is very gradually changing in Australia, in part due to technology. For example just as negative Twitter comments sometimes force large companies to actually sit-up and pay attention to unhappy customers, the same tools are being used to force the hands of politicians. I've personally had some small success in this area.

Having said that, I don't know the veracity of the following statement, but I keep hearing that politicians will pay more attention to hand-written letters than they do to electronic communications.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[skegg]

At least the median income in Australia is still A$66,820*

Were you implying that $66k is high?
If so, what good is a high median income when life is ridiculously expensive? Australia is one of the most expensive friggin countries in which to live.

Have you not read any of the many articles on this subject? Here are 2:

The Economist
SMH

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just partisan nonsense, why is it modded so high? Firstly, the Liberal party are highly unlikely to win the Senate, even if the current optimistic polls are to be believed. Secondly, they were in power before 2007 and most Australians will agree they were not so extreme. The Australian Liberal party is something like a mix of the UK conservatives and liberal democrats, it has no comparison in US politics. For instance the have a prominent moderate wing led by the former party leader Malcolm Turnbull who supports things like a carbon trading scheme. The most extreme they got was an attempt to reduce the influence of unions via their "work choices" policy; but this failed and they were kicked out of power. At worst, if this policy was kept, it would have brought us slightly closer to current US workplace laws.

The current Labor party is a joke. I honestly dont know who they are trying to appeal to. They recently tried to regulate the media and later to vastly increase their personal public election funding (but these bills failed at the last minute), so they dont appeal to anyone who cares about civil liberties (such as myself). They have begun a racist campaign against skilled migrants (moslty from india) on 457 visas and have introduced a bill to ensure that jobs are "given to Australians first", so they dont appeal to the anti-racism left much. Julia Gillard has taken to blaming all criticism of her on sexism and misogyny; claiming loudly and often that men just hate to see a female in power. Thus they dont appeal to men at all. And of couse they dont appeal to economic or social conservatives, because of their policies on industrial relations, their failure to deliver a budget as promised, their failures on border protection etc, etc. So its not a suprise they have no virtually no primary support left and this is a good thing, its democracy working as it should.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[XcepticZP]

Because big business doesn't have the power of laws to impose their will on you, unlike government. A big business, no matter how big it is, can't kidnap you and put you into jail if you don't want to associate with them. Good luck not associating with government without being kidnapped and put in jail.

However, you could argue that currently the fact that we have a powerful/overreaching government allows big-business to meddle in peoples' lives by getting business-favorable legislation passed.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[FatLittleMonkey]

That's not how the polls are shaping up. Greens have lost votes. The swing against Labor is going directly to the Liberal primary vote. I suspect the Greens and the current independents will lose their lower house seats.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[tqk]

Not sure why this got modded down, it makes good solid sense to me.

Moderators are voters, and voters ... (see above, way above).

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because big business doesn't have the power of laws to impose their will on you, unlike government. A big business, no matter how big it is, can't kidnap you and put you into jail if you don't want to associate with them.

Bullshit. before the EPA, Monsanto had the Darth vader-like power to choke you from a distance. Rupert Murdoch and the Koch brothers have the power to brainwash simple-minded people like you. Sony had the power to vandalize my computer when I wasn't their customer, my daughter was when she bought a CD from the record store she worked in. I have no say whatever what a corporation does or does not do no matter how it impacts me. To say that a company can only affect me if I use its services and give it money is blindly ignorant.

I have no power whatever over my gas company. Without the gas company I freeze to death in the winter. However, I do have power over my electric company, because the city owns it. If the rates go up too much or service drops too badly, the Mayor loses his job. Odd that we have teh lowest rates, the best uptime, and the best customer service in the state! CWLP HAS TO. Amerin does not.

I don't have the power to affect big business at all. None. I do have power to affect government, and have done so in the past -- and I'm just a serf. And you're just Koch's tool, fool.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[XcepticZP]

I don't have the power to affect big business at all. None. I do have power to affect government, and have done so in the past -- and I'm just a serf. And you're just Koch's tool, fool.

Lol, go ahead and keep thinking you have power over government. And you call me the fool. Funny statist AC is being funny.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

The current government's incompetence ...

A case in point. While this has perhaps not been the most stellar government in Australia's history, the fact that even you have been sold the idea of the government's supposed "incompetence" is a the real concern. True, there have been political mistakes made. Most recently Ms Gillard's raising of the "abortion" issue. An crude attack on Mr Abbott's catholic faith, and an issue on which Tony, his ambition taking the driver's seat, has taken a leaf out of Pilate's book. Made all the more inept by the fact that the coded term "reproductive rights" would have satisfied the present audience just as well. Or allowing the Carbon "Tax" (which is actually a trading scheme with only a temporary lead-in tax like structure) to be known as a TAX (booword!).

- Ms Gillard's raising of the "abortion" issue
- crude attack on Mr Abbott's catholic faith

Surely these are not real examples of the Labor goverments incompetence. Here's some better ones.

- Sacking the elected Prime Minister shortly after gaining power.
- Stating that country would be in surplus on a give date, failing to do so.
- Failing in talks with state govt. to deliver the Education Revolution.
- The housing insulation scandal
- Dismally failing to stop the boats, the cruelty of Manus Island

There's five points of incompetence of the federal goverment.

In truth the issue that concerned me the most was the attempt by the current government to set up a national internet firewall. I find the idea abhorrent, did you know that Wikileaks is on the list of blocked content.

Anyway there is no way I could vote for either Labor of Liberal. My vote goes elsewhere.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Bremic]

The only reason they were able to publicly attack the ABC was because they had almost every other media outlet bending over backwards to help them. The LNP have already stated their plans to privatize the ABC, which will almost certainly bundle it with the existing media. After which, the government not supported by the owners of big media will not be able to get their message out at all. How do you distribute a dissenting attitude when the media is refusing to report truth?

This has led to revolution elsewhere in the world, but Australia is currently to lazy to care. Bread and circuses. (or beer and football)

The current government is doing what it can, but all you need to do is read the speeches and policies posted on the web, and then compare it to the media coverage of the same. The media is lying, sometimes outright, sometimes just through omission; but that is the only exposure to information that 90% of Australians are getting. Unless we want our government to attempt to seize control of the media, then this next election will be purchased by people like Murdoch. It's a shame, it's disgusting, it's happening.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely these are not real examples of the Labor goverments incompetence. Here's some better ones.

Sacking the elected Prime Minister shortly after gaining power.

Kevin Rudd was and still is the elected Member for Griffith. The Labor party can no more sack him from that position than it can sack Craig Thompson. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with our system of government? We do not have a presidential system, we don't vote for the leader of the administration, that falls the governing party itself. Labor members didn't enjoy Rudd's captaincy and he went the way of Ricky Ponting. How that is spun in the press is simply more grist for the mill.

Stating that country would be in surplus on a give date, failing to do so.

Yes agreed. A spectacular coalition success even to manoeuvre the government into a position where they felt such a promise was necessary or desirable. Given the low level of govt debt even to pursue a surplus, as most economists noted, was foolish (economically as opposed to politically it makes little difference whether you land a few billion above or below the line). To make a hard promise on a given date in the face of international economic uncertainty was a publicity gamble. Like most gambles ...

Failing in talks with state govt. to deliver the Education Revolution.

Now you are simply being disingenuous. That "failure" is part of the LNP election campaign, and responsibility for it rests squarely on the shoulders of the states who are sacrificing the educational advantage of reforms in order to deny the government of policy achievement. Please!

The housing insulation scandal

That "scandal" is actually a great example of how the media spins reality in order to manufacture public outrage. We're very happy to have had our house insulated and no workers were killed in the process. That a sub-contractor employed someone under unsafe conditions leading to a death can hardly be blamed on Peter Garrett. That you actually believe there was a "housing insulation scandal" only proves the point of the previous post.

Dismally failing to stop the boats

The boats are unstoppable. The number of arrivals bear no relation to Australian government policy regarding refugees. It may surprise you to know, refugees escaping immediate persecution don't necessarily take the time to inform themselves of the intricacies of Australian policy.

The apparent success of the Howard government in this regard, as has been repeated pointed out, was actually only a reflection of the sharp decline in international refugees following the removal of Hussein in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan. The numbers are rising again. Even with the current bumper year the annual arrivals in Australia represent only about the number of people displaced internationally in any single week. The promise to stop the boats by both parties (short of going into foreign countries and fixing their nasty regimes) is, I'm afraid, utter bullshit.

the cruelty of Manus Island

I agree. Human sacrifice to appease the bloodlust of xenophobic western suburbs brown-shirts amounts to a supreme moral failure by this and the previous administration. Especially when it had previously been shown with the Kosovar refugees how well we can managed this. I would add that I agree with LNP policy regarding temporary protection visas. Asylum (which is hopefully a temporary thing) and immigration ought to kept sharply distinct IMO. This may somewhat assuage the fear of those who feel they are being invaded my non-Christians.

There's five points of incompetence of the federal government.

I'll give you one point of incompetence and one of moral failure.

In truth the issue that concerned me the most was the attempt by the current government to set up a national internet firewall. I find the idea abhorrent, did you know that Wikileaks is on the list of blocked content.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[mjwx]

Because big business doesn't have the power of laws to impose their will on you

Just keep reading that statement until you figure out just how wrong it is.

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Gideon Fubar]

I agree with you regarding public infrastructure. You can't increase functional efficiency (that is, the pipes and wires) on a natural monopoly easily without providing an inferior service (i.e. reduced maintenance).

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Gideon Fubar]

Yeah, uh...

I think your second paragraph is kind of a given. Your first paragraph is actually only ideally true anyway... i'm sure you've seen examples of corporations dictating the status quo, and sometimes that does extend to legal matters.

for example (after a cursory goog, so i'm not all that sure about the credibility...): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/jeff-olson-california-banks_n_3499177.html?1372199922&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Capsaicin]

Not to disagree with most of your points, but managing a hostile media is exactly the skill that is needed by any government.

I do not completely disagree with you. I've often bemoaned the poor work of the current Labor propaganda department. They took a straight talker like Julia and made her sprout goobledygook like her predecessor, promised us the "Real Julia" and gave us more goobledygook. The approach to embedding advertising-like catch phrases into speeches exposes speakers to ridicule, especially in these days of easy mash-ups. Compare this the Abbott's effective 3 point "Stop The ..." mantra, or the clever dog-whistle "A bad tax based on a LIE," where the 'lie,' of course, means to various audiences either the broken election promise or the Science itself. Abbott has, for the most part, been a supremely effective opposition leader (I think his blood pledge was dangerous and unnecessary over-extension, he did not need to lock himself potentially into calling a double dissolution, but we'll see how that pans out), and I can but admire his skill. He is a formidable politician, and anyone who convinces themselves he is "an idiot" is perhaps engaging too much in projection.

However I've come to the view that it is not entirely fair, in part because the gatekeepers are so effective that the performance of ALP politicians is largely irrelevant. Any good performances are effectively kept from public view. I'll give an example below.

To return to media "management" per se.

As a contrasting example, the Libs did not fight criticism from the ABC by coddling them. They viciously attacked and undermined their reputation.

Good as a general principle, but it is the particulars the define the reality. Among the salient differences here are: a) The ABC does not enjoy 80% domination of any branch of the media, quite the opposite. b) The ABC is by their charter not permitted from fighting back, ie. they (with the exception apparently of Shaun Micallef who gets the jester's wild card) cannot adopt a partisan political position. And despite the general perception among non-viewers and non-listeners (ie. most of the population) that they have a "left-wing bias" review after review finds that not to be the case.

It's one thing to attack a media fly-weight with both hands legislatively tied behind its back, quite another to get into a bare-knuckle fight with Mike Tyson. Look what happened when Conroy did try to fight back. He ends up with his head posted over Stalin's body and surrounded by images of histories most notorious dictators in the nation's most widely read paper, while News Ltd's print monopoly rights are trumpeted as fundamental to Western freedoms

Short of actually acting like Stalin and sending in the tanks, (no we really don't want that) what is the Australian govt to do. Especially a minority government. Nor is this even an ALP vs LNP issue.

Now it can be argued that I'm overstating the influence of the print media and that the high correlation between having Murdoch's backing and obtaining government (pro-Whitlam 1972, anti-Whitlam 1975, pro-Hawke 1987 and so on). is mere coincidence. Arguably Keating's "sweetest victory" (won via an extremely effective GST scare campaign) and the current hung parliament are the two exceptions to News getting their man across the line. Which recent embarrassment perhaps accounts for the gloves coming off completely ... this really has been the most vicious campaign since 1975. [Visit the archives and satisfy yourself by studying the tabloid press a month before each election ... I did something similar for a semi-quantitative analysis of crime reporting and and law & order policies in NSW over several decades, it's actually very enlightening]. But I really do feel that the print media still enjoys perhaps a surprising amount of influence. Perhaps it's the greater authority afforded to the printed word especially by

Re:The current government is doomed.

[XcepticZP]

You're essentially asking me to argue with myself? lol, that's a new low...

Re:The current government is doomed.

[FatLittleMonkey]

[Just a note to let you know I did read and appreciate your considered response.]

Re:The current government is doomed.

[Capsaicin]

Thanks. And for the avoidance of doubt I meant to write: The nations most widely circulated paper informs it's readership that the Australian government is now the ENEMY.

Anyway, events have rather overtaken us ...

hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

"A Senate committee has slammed Australia's proposed data retention scheme, recommending it only be considered if it only collected metadata, avoided capture of browser histories and contained rigorous privacy controls and oversight." - Basically, we want the American system and not a bit more.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

contained rigorous privacy controls and oversight

That doesn't sound like the American system at all.

Re:hmm

[icebike]

Actually, based on what has been happening in Australia lately this is a huge change of course, and probably a sign that the average citizen is getting a little sick of the shenanigans pulled by the current government, (sometimes pulled by only a minister here or there, without the consensus of his own party).

As for it being basically the American system, that is not true at all, because regardless of what they say they collect, you can be sure the NSA collects your entire email, not just the headers. And the us system has no such thing as privacy controls.

Re:hmm

[mjwx]

Actually, based on what has been happening in Australia lately this is a huge change of course, and probably a sign that the average citizen is getting a little sick of the shenanigans pulled by the current government, (sometimes pulled by only a minister here or there, without the consensus of his own party).

This is pretty much the story with every Australia-bashing political story on /.

Frank P. Frankston, Member for Frankston introduces hit pet bill into parliament. Seeing as no-one else wants it it doesn't pass.

No doubt the minister you're eluding to is our "honourable"* Mr Conroy, his pet project internet filter has consistently failed to gain any traction in parliament over the last 6 years. Its as dead as Sam Newman's career.

* Honourable is just a title, politicians are the most dishonourable people on the planet.

Re:hmm

[koona]

> this is a huge change of course, and probably a sign that the average citizen is getting a little sick of the shenanigans pulled by the current government, More likely they are concerned about the possible repercusions of the Snowden affai.

Re:hmm

[FriendlyLurker]

sick of the shenanigans pulled by the current government, (sometimes pulled by only a minister here or there, without the consensus of his own party

Please. If you have to pass unpopular/shady/questionable policies and laws, always always set it up as one individuals doing and claim - "its not the parties policy" - they acted alone. This is standard politics, fall on your sword type devotion to the party - preserve its good name. Please dont be fooled by the massive sleight of hand (well, sleight of mouth/marketing)...

new hero

[Anonymous Coward]

Edward snowed in, autralian for hero

Democracy works!

[PPH]

Thank goodness there's a pacific Ocean between Aus and the USA. Or this subversive thinking might infect us.

Re:Democracy works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank goodness? No!

Thank Snowden instead, that man is a hero.

This bill (or whatever it is) has been rejected thanks to Snowden.

Snowden has made too obvious for the People what governments do against them.

Re:Democracy works!

[bloodhawk]

Normally I doubt the influence world public opinion has on moronic pollies, But I suspect in this instance this is actually correct. The current government has tried to get other orwellian legislation passed including internet filters so them actually being against it themselves is unlikely. I think Snowden has highlighted how unpopular such ideas are and with a government that is almost certainly getting thrown out for incompetence come september they hardly need another nail in their coffin.

Re:Democracy works!

[icebike]

If only Snowden hadn't been such a true believer in Obama, he would have released his cache before the prior election and forced the issue into the spotlight in the US. Both parties would be backpedaling furiously.

As it is, the administration (along with the opposition party) will do everything in its power to demonize him, when in fact he should be getting the Medal of Freedom. Here's hoping there is another Snowden in position to divulge the illegal spying in the run-up to the next election and perhaps some headway can be made on this issue. If not, it will all peter out in the States, and then all pretense if restrictions will be gone.

Re:Democracy works!

[interval1066]

The current government has tried to get other orwellian legislation passed...

You talking about the Obama admin or another country? Becuase the current admin has been wildly successful and proactive at passing all sorts of such legislation, including the hideus Patriot Act that was created under Bush, and renewed with tongue-wagging fervor by Obama. So "tried" isn't the obvious adjective here.

Re:Democracy works!

[interval1066]

Or adverb if you prefer.

Re:Democracy works!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's OK Uncle Sam, put your stars and stripes away, we're talking about Australia.

Re:Democracy works!

[Anonymous Coward]

We have internet filiters here. Just recently 1200 sites were blocked for no reason.

Re:Democracy works!

[Anonymous Coward]

They were blocked for a reason, one site contained illegal content, the rest just happened to share the same IP address. It isn't a good reason but their was certainly a reason. It is one of the problems in the world of shared hosting, you suffer the same fate as the kiddie porn site that just happens to have the same address.

Re:Democracy works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Democracy does work. When we have more democratic control of the FED , IRS , FBI and MILITARY, expect to live in a great society. Until l then expect poverty and inequality.

Re:Democracy works!

[Anonymous Coward]

They just shelved it until the fervor dies down. It will be back. People in power love the power.

Re:Democracy works!

[interval1066]

Oh? I'm VERY surprised an Aussie didn't use this as an opportunity to go ahead and bash the 'ol US anyway. I see its a national sport there.

Re:Democracy works!

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? They don't need to store it as the USA is already storing it for them.

Why can't this happen in the US

[davydagger]

In other countries, occationally orwellian laws are blocked by elected officials.

In the US, they all shrug and try to explain away our rights.

Re:Why can't this happen in the US

[Mitreya]

In other countries, occationally orwellian laws are blocked by elected officials.

In the US, they all shrug and try to explain away our rights.

Not at all. When the outrage gets too loud (think SOPA and the ilk), laws will be temporarily stopped and shelved, only to be re-introduced piece-by-piece in "Think of Rainbows And Puppies Act"

I assume this is what is happening there -- a full law could not be passed openly, so it will be re-built quietly piece-by-piece later.

Re:Why can't this happen in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

In other countries, occationally orwellian laws are blocked by elected officials. In the US, they all shrug and try to explain away our rights.

Actually, when people discovered Total Information Awareness (TIA) it was rejected too, then quietly renamed. I suspect the same thing will happen in Australia.

Re:Why can't this happen in the US

[jrumney]

I don't know about Australia, but most countries do not share the same enthusiasm for legislation by rider that the US has. Most likely Australia follows British law, where any part of a bill that is not covered by the long form title of the bill must be excluded from the act when it is passed by parliament.

Re:Why can't this happen in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

Or...
  Australia just realised you can get the NSA to do it at a fraction of the cost..

  Which is the whole point. If the Americans are doing it, for everyone, why do they have to do it themselves.

Not that it matters, your frequent flyer/loyalty card tells the corporations everything they need to know. What the NSA/CIA/ASIO/ASIS should do is just implement a loyalty card program to reward you for being frequently snooped.

Re:Why can't this happen in the US

[Cimexus]

No - neither the Australian legislative drafting process, nor the way legislation is debated and passed (or not) in Parliament are amenable to that kind of thing. An Act covers only a single topic (dictated by the long form of its title) and can't have US-style riders attached to it.

Re:Why can't this happen in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

only to be re-introduced piece-by-piece in "Think of Rainbows And Puppies Act"

Tell me that was an intentional pun on your side.

Re:Why can't this happen in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US, they all shrug and try to explain away our rights.

"We have prevented X terrorist plots but we cannot tell you about them", chuckles Obama. "The Boston Marathon bombing could *not* have been predicted. We need to collect more intelligence to prevent such a tragedy in the future...you know to make Amerika safe from the terrorists."

The problem with the paraphrased quotation from USPOTUS Obama, a constitutional lawyer by the way, is the US government was well-aware of the persons who carried out the bombing in Boston, MA, US; they were even interviewed/interrogated by law enforcement beforehand. The NSA's massive surveillance programme was in place at the time.

Re:Why can't this happen in the US

[Errol backfiring]

Off course. Rainbows and puppies are already copyrighted. They could never be used in a written document.

Today must be opposite day.

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly what the subject title states.

The US is doing the same

[Squidlips]

You don't really think that the gigantic Utah Data Center was created to store a few thousand phone conversations, do you? Nope. I suspect that the NSA is storing ALL electronic communications such as phone and email from everyone in US. It might examine only a few thousand by hand, but it is all being recorded.

Re:The US is doing the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Could imagine trying to examine all the text messages sent in the US or pretty much any country. The Lolz and OMGs would start to blur together... What did you find out with your investigation? People especially teens send way to many worthless texts. like "wat up" or "wat doin"

Re:The US is doing the same

[FatLittleMonkey]

It might examine only a few thousand by hand, but it is all being recorded.

Data mining isn't "examining a few thousand by hand". It's the analysis on the mass data that matters. You may drill down to specific emails/calls/transfers/etc, but to know which ones, you need to be able to map entire networks of associations.

This is not like the cameras on an ATM that stores unwatched images unless a specific event prompts someone to look at a specific time. Your personal data is not being blindly stored on these systems, unwatched since you've done nothing anyone cares about, it is being analysed along with everyone else's.

Re:The US is doing the same

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that the NSA is storing ALL electronic communications such as phone and email from everyone in US.

You really still suspect it? The Snowden story makes it pretty obvious

Excuses like "we are not looking at anyone's data specifically so it is ok to ask for all of it" tell me that much. Also lines like "Look, no one is listening to your calls" are basically "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear"

Re:The US is doing the same

[Lunix Nutcase]

No, it's for large scale SNA (social network analysis for those who are unfamiliar).

Re:The US is doing the same

[Anonymous Coward]

So instead of a "Bacon Number" you'll have a "Bin Laden Number"

goodie

Re:The US is doing the same

[Anonymous Coward]

That is why you have an AI parse them and only review those flagged with specific patterns or those harvested from users of interest.

Re:The US is doing the same

[tyrione]

You don't really think that the gigantic Utah Data Center was created to store a few thousand phone conversations, do you? Nope. I suspect that the NSA is storing ALL electronic communications such as phone and email from everyone in US. It might examine only a few thousand by hand, but it is all being recorded.

Only an idiot thinks the US can have datacenters large enough to record every single conversation, email content and video phone conversation on a daily basis, never mind the personnel when the State and Federal Government have downsized personnel by several million positions.

Remember

[Anonymous Coward]

... the Government is expected to lose office ...

When the current opposition party was Government they took Australia into Vietnam and Iraq and copied the 'war on terror' mantra. While no Australian politician can be anti-American, the current opposition party are arse-lickers of American politicians.

Re:Remember

[_merlin]

Oh Gillard is no better - look how eager she was to give US forces even more access to Australian bases. We may as well not be a sovereign country at this rate.

More links on story

[Anonymous Coward]

"The Australian Attorney-General Department's pig-headed push for Internet data retention were rejected by an Intelligence Oversight Committee for being vague and violating civil liberties. Greens Senator Scott Ludlam said the government needs to get the message and drop the scheme, and warned data retention could be used by PRISM. Head Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus says data retention is off the agenda for now, though when the last AG made a similar promise they caught everyone off guard and passed new laws 12 days later"

http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/24/national-security-inquiry-declines-to-endorse-data-retention
http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/24/keane-a-debate-we-had-to-have-on-security-measures
http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/465679/data_retention_needs_oversight_inquiry/
http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/465152/australia_suspected_prism_data_ludlam/
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/roxon-puts-web-surveillance-plans-on-ice-20120809-23x9l.html
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/312771,senate-passes-lite-data-retention-laws.aspx

The government is expected to lose office
Yes they are, but the opposition hasn't ruled out doing the same thing.

Re:More links on story

[gnoshi]

Scott Ludlum looks like the sole political torch bearer for the view that Australians shouldn't have communications data routinely harvested. e.g. the bill to require a warrant to retrieve telecommunications metadata: http://www.couriermail.com.au/technology/news/greens-8216get-a-warrant-bill8217-to-curb-government-spying/story-fniho3wq-1226662303872

In fact, I'm going to write him a nice letter this afternoon.

Australia Don't Become America

[Anonymous Coward]

Australia Don't Become America... enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdw1Pw4nIv0

Sometimes the system works

[countach]

It seems to me, that our elected representatives can sometimes do the right thing. It's when the executive and the faceless men do it all in secret that we have problems.

Rule government again = ~ $threefiddy per citizen

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't fall for the delusion of voting.
Instead I go right for the actual influence: I target lobbyist groups, while acting like a lobbyist myself.
A bit like the Yes Men.

The funny thing is that lobbyists themselves somehow never realize when they're brainwashed (by me) themselves.

Unfortunately it takes a lot of time. I should start a Kickstarter project to finance a ThinkTank(TM) with a billion dollar budget (that's about threefiddy per US citizen), and STEAMROLL the whole thing.

Re: They already DO store all data

[jaminJay]

I wondered if I'd missed a meeting or two, until you said we gaol people for not voting. it's a small fine which would expire with the statute of limitations before SPAR would try to incarcerate you for it.

Re:They already DO store all data

[Anonymous Coward]

Not voting means REFUSING to support the (current) system. In Australia, you are forced by law to support the system, forced by law to answer intimate questions about your sex life (if 'randomly' chosen by the bureau of statistics). Any forum where outraged citizens dare to express objections are overwhelm by Stasi Australians trained to scream "shut your mouth and do as you are told". We call this COMPLIANCY TRAINING. We see similar situations happening to the members of the more 'culty' churches in the USA.

Not voting means you get sent a letter, to which you can reply with an excuse as to why you didn't vote. I have replied with, "I had to wash my dog". Sadly I wasn't imprisoned or fined, I could have done with a clean room and warm bed.

Massive Media Manipulation

[Anonymous Coward]

The current government and it's immediate predecessor (of the same party) has done a brilliant job. Compare to the rest of the world. The wanna-be's keep making statements contrary to the facts, but Rupert Murdoch and Gina Rinehart want a change, and with control of most of the media consistently push outright lies. Their media has, for example, reported the current Prime Minister would be dumped by their party EVERY WEEK for the past 130 weeks. Ain't happened yet - it is a bare-faced attempt at destabilisation.
Australia's Liberal (i.e conservative) Party - the finest politicians money can buy.

Re:Massive Media Manipulation

[CRC'99]

The current government and it's immediate predecessor (of the same party) has done a brilliant job. Compare to the rest of the world. The wanna-be's keep making statements contrary to the facts, but Rupert Murdoch and Gina Rinehart want a change, and with control of most of the media consistently push outright lies. Their media has, for example, reported the current Prime Minister would be dumped by their party EVERY WEEK for the past 130 weeks. Ain't happened yet - it is a bare-faced attempt at destabilisation.
Australia's Liberal (i.e conservative) Party - the finest politicians money can buy.

This. So many times this.

The crux of it is multiple fold:
1) Rupert Murdoch owns the biggest cable network in Australia (Foxtel). The current governments NBN plan will give up to 100Mbit (maybe even 1GBit) to just about every home in a town above 1000 homes - Australia wide. As the US has seen with streaming services, in this environment, cable tv would be obliterated. Its just a sad fact that the same guy owns most of the media - therefore he uses his influence to protect his media assets.

2) Gina gets a load of immigrant workers. The current government is looking to restrict imported workers to a lower amount that is currently happening. This means that Gina will have to pay fair wages to more of her staff. This is of course being protested by her interests in any way possible.

3) Tony Abbott is great at grinding axes, but very poor (being kind) at content. He has spearheaded the biggest sledging campaign in Australian political history. This is the guy that outright lies (which the media doesn't expose - see point #1) to the public to destabilise the current government as much as possible.

4) Tony Abbott (with the media in tow) has made a massive issue about asylum seekers arriving in Australia via boats. Forget that fact that he calls them illegal immigrants (which they aren't) and that they are the source of Australias problems (which they aren't) and he promises that he will stop the boats (which he can't) to increase our nations security. His plans have been scoffed at by the brass in the navy as unworkable - but these details get overlooked by the media (see point #1).

In a nutshell, its a sad day for me to call myself an Australian - and its a sad day for politics in Australia that people sink so low as to put themselves before their country - but that is exactly what is happening at this point in time.

Re:Massive Media Manipulation

[Bremic]

Very well summed up. I wish Australia would see these comments, and even if they didn't take them at face value, at least think about them. At no point in history do I remember being exposed to such a massive fraud being perpetuated on the public by the media elite. I saw Tony Abbott speak once and he was a complete disaster, couldn't string two sentences together clearly, unable to answer questions that weren't phrased to permit a bottled answer, unwilling to look at or even recognize the existence of people who disagreed with him.

Total media coverage of this disaster... ZERO? Never made it to the news at all that I saw or heard. However Gillard was to do something as harmless as a spoonerism, there would be multiple articles talking about her incompetence.

I am also worried that come September, I will for the first time in my life, be ashamed to be an Australian.

Proof

[GrahamJ]

It's great to see that Snowden's actions have had a positive effect on the world already. He is a hero.

Near sighted Australian media

[sd4f]

The worst thing about all this stuff is, they say they reject the data retention law now, but, no one has questioned what the government will be doing with the planned centralised "National Broadband Network", owned and run by the government.

They won't need data retention laws for ISP's nor companies such as google, the government owned infrastructure will be the isthemus of all digital communications in Australia. I just don't believe for a second that some sort of all-encompassing surveillance program isn't being planned or implemented with the NBN, yet this question is just not being investigated at all by the media.

Re:Near sighted Australian media

[marka63]

The fix to which is to encrypt all communications from the home / office to the rest of the world.

The first thing ISP's could do is stop supporting insecure communication channels to/from their customers. There is no reason to not use STARTTLS with submission. There is no reason to continue to support POP/IMAP without SSL/TLS.

Next they should use DANE to publish their CERTs to ensure that active MitM attacks are not possible.

I call on all ISP's to disable unencrypted mail submission / retrieval with their customers.

Re:Near sighted Australian media

[Anonymous Coward]

Please explain to me how a level 2 network is supposed to be used to conduct surveillance on level 3 communication.

Re:Near sighted Australian media

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly - the problem with using transport security for a message security problem is that your opponent will simply attack the transport link that is unprotected. You encrypt between you and the ISP's mail server - yeah. Shame the listener lives on the other side of your ISP's mail server where you message is sent in the clear on port 25. Oh, but wait I hear you say, we can use optimistic TLS encryption for SMTP between mail servers. Sure we can - shame that it is hopelessly hopelessly exposed to MitM (I'll connect to you, and ask to do TLS, but when you say you would prefer not to I'll say - that's okay - here's the email I have for you anyway). Okay - well you will insist on TLS for SMTP. Great - shame that will break SMTP as adoption of that is all but nothing.

BTW - certificates from trusted roots (as in ones commonly loaded into browsers) are very easy to obtain even when you aren't in the domain, and all of that is assuming they haven't already weakened their crypto doing some partial key escrow with agencies like NSA. Needless to say, without authentication the encrypted tunnel might make sure that no one intercepts your email as you send it to the friendly destination mail server (which just happens to be the government interceptor).

And finally, most importantly - if they make this the law then the ISPs will have to hand over the information anyway. That is how government does these things. They might work with a few key ISPs to minimise the numbers that know, but that is always how this stuff is facilitated.

You pretty much have three choices:

1. Get "serious" about protecting your identity online (hint - you wont be sending email or buying books of amazon).
2. Accept that this stuff happens, but is wrong - write your local member.
3. Accept that this stuff happens, and get on with life.

Australian Secret Service already doing it

[Anonymous Coward]

If its anything like Britain, the Aussie secret service is already doing it in secret, and that's why the push for the law. To make it legal. That's the problem we have with GCHQ, NSA etc. the democracy part is there, but the spook part drives the government part, not the other way around.

"shelved"

[WOOFYGOOFY]

shelved = "I'll be back"

Re:G'day, mates!

[blackpig]

Fosters: Only for gullible tourists and export to gullible foreigners.

Re:They already DO store all data

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have a single reputable source for any of your claims?

"I Saw It On Today Tonight" isn't a reputable source, BTW.

Some Australians thank Snowden...

[Pav]

...with some irreverant comedy rap : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMPQmIPibE

Check out other stuff by these guys... they're great.

NSA - Free backup services available now.

[secondhand_Buddah]

Why store data when the Americans are already storing it for you?

Re:NSA - Free backup services available now.

[Errol backfiring]

"Real men don't do backups. They just e-mail their stuff and let PRISM mirror it."

Re:They already DO store all data

[Anonymous Coward]

Not voting means REFUSING to support the (current) system. In Australia, you are forced by law to support the system

I love it when this comes up. You are not forced to vote in Australia by any stretch of the imagination. If you don't attend you'll get a fine like mentioned already but if you do choose to attend the only criteria you have to meet to "vote" is have your name ticked off. What you actually do with your voting form is your own damn business, many people draw pictures on their forms and put them in the box.

Minor Details

[Anonymous Coward]

1.Too bad most peoples personal data are hosted on US servers (Facebook, gmail etc). Is it legal for Australian law enforcement/intelligence agencies to request data in order to avoid the legal complication of actively acquiring it themselves?

2.Of course they don't want to talk about this before the election. It will probably just go ahead at a later date once the dust has settled.

3.Also why is everyone so concerned about PRISM but paid no attention to the stories about Stellar Wind? At least they politely requested the data with PRISM.

Re:They already DO store all data

[Hognoxious]

What you actually do with your voting form is your own damn business, many people draw pictures on their forms and put them in the box.

Just be careful what you draw, or Rudd might be back.