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NSA Recruitment Drive Goes Horribly Wrong
An anonymous reader writes "The Guardian is running a story about a recent recruitment session held by the NSA and attended by students from the University of Wisconsin which had an unexpected outcome for the recruiters. 'Attending the session was Madiha R Tahir, a journalist studying a language course at the university. She asked the squirming recruiters a few uncomfortable questions about the activities of NSA: which countries the agency considers to be 'adversaries', and if being a good liar is a qualification for getting a job at the NSA.' Following her, others students started to put NSA employees under fire too. A recording of the session is available on Tahir's blog."
Then the answer to question #2 is no. Also, the answer to question #1 is all of the above.
hope AdWords was installed
They get "targets" handed down, and don't decide who is an "adversary."
So we are all targets.
Great.
If you want terrorism to stop, then just don't participate in it.
The same exact thing applies to NSA and all other government terrorist organisations.
You can't handle the truth.
Man! These guys really know how to milk a story.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The NSA does not tell complete lies. All is well. We can sleep sound knowing the NSA doesn't tell complete lies.
It's the politicians who are responsible for this mess. And that includes both the Obama and the Bush administration.
In this crap economy, organizations recruiting college younglings with no real-world experience are a very rare sight.
Yet, these dumb rich spoiled kids blew any employment opportunity they potentially had by hating the NSA, since it's the latest cool and hip thing to do.
Indeed, I'm trying to get ahead of the curve and I'm currently hating on Mother Theresa. Hooo if this thing ever goes down right, I am going to be SO fucking hipster.
Having worked at several of the big-5 agencies (NSA included) I can attest to the fact that their HR organizations are pretty inept. They are so focused on EO and diversity that they really have no staff who know the trade craft that they are recruiting against nor even people who can simply think on their feet. For a potential recruit to act in any way other than honored to be speaking to a recruiter in the intelligence community and awestruck at the very thought of getting said job would totally derail them. I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall.
Look at those dumbasses who believe in something bigger than getting a high paying job as a spook.
Fuck you.
These are people doing a job.
So were the Stasi.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
For an EA recruitment session at Imperial College, a fresher asked the Q&A guy "In C&C or Red Alert, what are players supposed to think of Muslims when you portray them as suicide bombers in your game?" Everybody clapped and cheered the young lad.And that was in 2006 I think.
These are people doing a job. You might not like it, but don't start attacking them.
I'm sorry, are you serious? "Doing a job"? And they are recruiting people who will be "just doing their job" in the field of domestic spying. Also, if you are interested in "cops just doing their jobs", consider that Seattle is currently under a Consent Decree with the DOJ for "just doing their job". Maybe *YOU* sould apply to the NSA to âoejust do your jobâ.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
In this crap economy, organizations recruiting college younglings with no real-world experience are a very rare sight.
Yet, these dumb rich spoiled kids blew any employment opportunity they potentially had by hating the NSA, since it's the latest cool and hip thing to do.
Agreed! You shouldn't be marked a troll because your opinion is well formed and not (overly) offensive. (You didn't have to call them spoiled rich kids but whatever.)
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
RTFA
'Attending the session was Madiha R Tahir, a journalist studying a language course at the university.'
Hi rodrigoandrade! Apparently after crawling out of the rock you were under, you missed the line on the floor. Can you please just stand on the other side of that.
Thanks!
The Resistance
I congratulate you for your masterful troll, but you're still an idiot.
FUCK. DA. POLICE.
We are a nation of laws, not men. If you don't agree with the actions of a governmental organization then you need to lobby your governmental representatives with your views.
You also need to accept that your views might not be the majority and that, to some extent, we're a country of majority rule.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
You mean they're "just following orders"? Ah, I guess it's okay then.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
No, they are government employees, which according to our HIGHEST LAWS means they answer to US the PEOPLE. If they can't handle people asking them some hard questions, then it's a good chance they know that they are doing things they shouldn't.
Now no one beat them up, no one attacked them. But these "recruiters" jobs is to spread propaganda, and it's about time people started calling them out on it.
And yes physically attacking a cop just because they're a cop is a horrible idea. But asking a cop to abide by their OATH to Protect and Serve, and calling them out on it verbally when the police office they work in is breaking the law? There's nothing wrong with that, as perhaps they shouldn't let their fellow officers break the law in the first place.
Those that hold themselves up over others as authorities, or as law, should also be held to the strictest standards.
But here I make an exception. This reaction is so below all levels of courtesy and common sense. If this young woman has the brains to do language studies, she has definitely more brains than you, Mr. Coward & Anonymous. You are a shame to your country, that is what you are. There SHOULD be rules, here on /., to flag certain comments.
Gosh.
PS Can parent please be modded down into oblivion ?
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
You're SO right! The NSA employees are just doing their jobs. We can't in good conscience hold them accountable. They are publicly funded, for Christ's sake!
God, it's like targeting foreign soliders because they are killing your neighbours. Or targeting the Nazi SS because they are genociding.
Give them a break, people! They are all just doing their jobs!
Would you work for Accenture knowing that they are behind major IT cock ups (stock exchange, NHS database, I think that rocket which had a divide by zero explosion, ...) and are a spin off from the corrupt accounting firm behind Enron?
Amen, bro.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
Have you actually listened to it? No one attacked them. They asked them some very pointed questions, but even the pointed questions were generally in reference to what they said (while referencing what is now known because of the leaks). When they ask about which countries were "adversaries" it was because they said they analyzed the communications of "adversaries". So she asked what they considered adversaries, since we know they analyze the communications of our allies. A lot of hard questions were asked, but no one attacked them just because they worked at the NSA.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
It is worth noting that at the Nuremberg trials the most common excuse was "I was just following orders."
And they are recruiting people who will be "just doing their job" in the field of domestic spying.
Maybe something like that is in TFA, but I see nothing in TFS about what field they were recruiting for.
Or are we just assuming now because NSA is teh evilz?
I wonder if it's the /. effect, or if that's just what we're supposed to think. Not bothering to post anonymous because they'd find me anyway. =), I mean =| <SIGNAL HIJACKED> I mean =)) I'm so happy to be protected by your watchful eyes, NSA!
It should be illegal to say that freedom of speech should be limited.
I hear the KKK is hiring...
being a good liar is a good skill to be a spy / uncover guy.
You mean they're "just following orders"? Ah, I guess it's okay then.
They're not soldiers, genocide is no where insight, your vague analogy is invalid.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
A recording of the session is available on Tahir's blog.
It would probably make more sense to link to the blog post instead of the main blog page so people can actually find the recording in the future after new blog posts are added.
I've visited the "blog" but I can't find any link for the "audio file". Has anyone found it? Anyone have the link?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Look at the people in the Guardian's photo: they hold up a sign of Snowden, write "HERO" across it, and then use the Obama logo for the "O"? How stupid and partisan can you get? Not only is Obama fully responsible for the current NSA actions and keeping them secret, he lied during his campaign when he promised to end such abuses.
Some jobs shouldn't be done. OH Hell, I'll go ahead and Godwin the thread, the stormtroopers were just doing their job in WWII.
I guess you are person who will do anything if you need the money so this will be lost on you but perhaps these kids are throwing away an "employment opportunity" because it would be morally wrong to dedicate yourself to an entity which seems to be dedicated to violating basic human rights?
I don't think it's in anyone's best interests to expose all governmental employees to public scrutiny. That's what elected officials are for. Anyone else is fulfilling a task.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
You are a fucking retard and I'm tired of this excuse. These people are paid by YOUR TAX DOLLARS just like cops and should definitely answer any question put forward - especially if one wants to work there too.
NSA: "I'm sorry I can't answer that question honestly"
Me: fuck you I'm working somewhere else then, I don't want to work for a bunch of dishonest self-serving fagots.
You come on. They had to face pointed questions. Boo fucking hoo. If my employer, a hospital, started executing patients they had sworn to heal, I'd expect some questions even though I do research, and the only time I see patients is when they're walking into the building across the street. The NSA is supposed to exist to defend us and our rights, and did the exact opposite. They can fucking deal with the fallout or they can quit. Their bosses and directing politicians caused the problem, not the people who are trying to get answers.
I have met a lot of those recuriters, they are great people. They are only doing their job. I love how you are mad at the NSA for spying, you should go to the top of the food chain, Congress is the one who authorized it/allowed it. Even after what has been released there are few congressmen who are against it. So that's where you should turn your anger.
I don't think it's in anyone's best interests to expose all governmental employees to public scrutiny.
No one said that. But it is in the best interests of The People to know what is being done in their name.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Look at all those upstanding young people who did this wonderful thing that will have no consequence whatsoever. Don't you have faith in the people?
Nazi's : invaded neighboring countries, isolated and killed 6 million Jews
NSA : never actually done anything ever (that we know of).
The resemblance is uncanny.
Today in Jeopardy "This Nazi bureaucrat defended his actions by claiming he was 'just doing his job'"
The only way to win that game is not to play. If you think you have little privacy, those students (and all the lower ranks involved) will have none at all, after what happened with Snowden. And what is worse, they are in the perfect place to be escape goats or just false positives if anything happens.
The only way to win is to be in the higher ranks, where you are just untouchable.
What utter bullshit. You can't be a "nation of laws" when the laws apply differently to different subsets of the nation, when you're not allowed to know how the law works, and when those enforcing the law are above it.
If you want to keep sucking off your jackbooted masters, you'll need a new sound bite to try to excuse it. That one stopped working decades ago.
No, that's not how the real world works. If you sign up for duty and put yourself in the line of fire like these guys do, you take the handle the situation whatever that may be. People like you have this pseudo-platonian view of law that just doesn't exist.
Nazi's : invaded neighboring countries, isolated and killed 6 million Jews
NSA : never actually done anything ever (that we know of).
The resemblance is uncanny.
Come on mods, that doesn't deserve to be downvoted so hard.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
The NSA is wiping their ass with the U.S. Constitution again.
A recent article in CNN outlines why there is little in the US Media regarding Eric Snowden and the NSA Prism program--the NSA is literally threatening journalists with prosecution for espionage for doing their jobs.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/03/opinion/snepp-journalists-espionage/index.html?hpt=us_mid
We are sliding down that slippery slope fast, folks. I honestly feel the next few months will determine whether or not our Constitution remains viable as a means to protect basic human rights. Help the press help us--tell as many people as you can about this article and the serious repercussions the article outlines. These are not potential repercussions--this is happening folks. A near-complete lack of articles in main-stream media about the Prism program and Snowden is all the evidence I need to come to that conclusion.
At least they would have spanked the banksters of recent events.
I don't think it's in anyone's best interests to expose all governmental employees to public scrutiny.
No one said that. But it is in the best interests of The People to know what is being done in their name.
Not always, nor immediately. Had the President had to announce the secret mission to storm Osama Bin Laden's base the mission never would have been accomplished.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
I have no problem with good cops, which is the vast majority of them. I do have a problem with bad cops that don't follow the law. And good cops that are great at their job but aren't any good at recruiting shouldn't be doing recruiting.
In this case, yes, these people are just doing a job -- recruiting. That's a tough job. However, before expecting to recruit (hopefully) the brightest students in the country, they might want to have really good answers for questions that an awful lot of the ordinary people in the public may have regarding the legality of what the NSA is doing. As in, the recruiters should have been drilled in lengthy, candid, self-critical sessions about the sorts of pointed questions people might ask because of recent events, and how to handle them gracefully. To not be prepared for the result of what's been happening in the last few months of public attention is bad planning.
I'm sure there's a lot of great people in the NSA and in other policing and intelligence agencies. But if you have difficulty answering questions about the job a potential candidate may be doing in the institution, even if the questions are bold and perhaps unwarranted, then you really shouldn't be in recruiting. Furthermore, if there is any validity to those questions (i.e. they may be uncomfortable ones but are still entirely legitimate), then you might want to reconsider the image of the institution for which you work and if that's the real source of the problem. Maybe some things need to change so that your institution doesn't sabotage its own recruiting efforts because its reputation has become so poor. You can't blame these recruiters for the image that the institution has cultivated, but they do have to deal with it, and they better be taking candidates' feedback back to their bosses and saying "We have a serious problem if you want the best employees to come work with us".
Indeed. There's a reason that their school color is red.
Ah yes, red, the colour of the US Republican party when it comes to identifying which states they control...
Two lions and a sheep vote on whats for dinner...
We have the Bill of Rights which include some things like the 4th amendment. Things that would prevent the majority from taking advantage of the minority. Too bad the Bill of Rights has been suspended.
Not always, nor immediately. Had the President had to announce the secret mission to storm Osama Bin Laden's base the mission never would have been accomplished.
That's a lame example because we were told about that in a timely fashion; indeed, the entire point of that exercise was to show off our desecration of Osama's corpse to the world. It had, really, no other purpose.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
These recruiters were exposed to a group of people these recruiters thought would be exposed to their recruiting.
The moment you recruit others you are in the public, your head, your answers, your expertise, your appearance counts.
Then you're going to rejoice when you learn this tidbit: there is no cake, it was a lie. There's also no spoon, but that's another story.
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yeah everyone queue up for the snitch role because it pays.
dickweed.
what's puzzling is that they decided to keep the recruitment drive now though... you would have thought that this was the obvious outcome and it being obvious they didn't have good answers to such questions. we all (the globe) know that they pay ok money so need to advertise that.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
She's going back to the USA?
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>We are a nation of laws, not men
Lol! Really? So when is James Clapper going to be charged with contempt of congress for telling them that the NSA isn't spying on millions of Americans? When are the people in the previous administration going to be held responsible for ordering torture - also a felony? We ceased being a nation of laws a while ago.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Thats funny they taught us in the military that it was our personal responsibility to refuse to follow an unlawful order. The whole "I was just following orders" routine didn't work at Nuremberg, and should not work here. I just wish the other government agencies held that belief.
But in reality I don't. They're upset at the wrong people and it shows just how clueless they are. Sure, we're all pissed off about the spying programs. Making it tough on recruiters may be fun, and even humorous, but in the end does absolutely nothing. They people responsible are those these students voted into office (if they voted). The real outrage should be at our elected representatives. Go to their town halls and make THEM squirm. Better yet, vote them all out of office and vote in people worth while. Obama, nor just about any of the current representatives, are not trustworthy. It's pretty clear these students don't understand that. I sadly wonder if the voting populace as a whole even understands.
If you want to keep sucking off your jackbooted masters, you'll need a new sound bite to try to excuse it. That one stopped working decades ago.
Why is this upvoted? That's seriously offensive.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
You're never going to make it at that rate. Mother Theresa has been criticized for some time. Perhaps most amusingly by Penn and Teller on their BS show where she is described as a fraud, a fanatic and a fundamentalist, corrupt, nasty, cynical and cruel by Christopher Hitchens.
B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
"I don't think it's in anyone's best interests to expose all governmental employees to public scrutiny..."
So, who do you work for?
What's her next target for hard-hitting investigative journalism? Interrogating the WalMart cashier about the sleazy business practices of the corporation? How about cornering the burger-flipper at McDonald's over his/her complicity in contributing to the nationwide obesity epidemic?
That's just what we need: more up-and-coming journalists that pick the low-hanging fruit and pretend that it's a raw, career-making scoop.
We are not a country of majority rule. If that were true, there would be no Constitution.
Majority rule means the majority may do anything they like. While there are but shreds of the Constitution left, there are still things the majority is not allowed to do.
By "entity" do you mean US government and current policy makers?
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
The recruiters were there to offer jobs to people, not to answer for every controversy involving the agency. It isn't their job, and it isn't especially reasonable. Do you harass sales clerks about sweat shop labor used to manufacture some particular good in their store? This isn't much different.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
This is what you wrote:
This is what it sounds like:
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Yeah that whole Constitution, Bill of Rights, Liberty, Freedom... that's all negotiable as long as I can have a 9-5 that lets me drive a Porche and have a real swimming pool in my back yard... which I have neither of...
So as long as it's not genocide, it's okay to just be following orders without questioning them?
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Good Will Hunting
Skimmed and didn't see anybody else posting it. Kinda surprising.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
If "just following orders" is not a valid defence for war crimes, I don't see why it should be a defence for civil crimes, or minor crimes. If you do something wrong (legally or morally), you are responsible. In the case of the NSA, it's not even like they were being forced to do it (as a conscripted soldier might)- they could have gotten another job at any time.
That's right - you would expect the hospital to get pointed questions - the leadership. I'm willing to bet you would swear, bitch, and complain loudly if instead of asking the hospital leadership everybody came to you for answers. "It's not my job to answer for them!" is probably what we would hear. Guess what, it isn't the job of recruiters to answer for every policy of the organization either.
It was a stunt, nothing more.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
So, it's better to just trust them because... They should be kind people since they were elected?
If the jackboot fits...
Theoretically, even Kings are not above the law in the anglo-saxon tradition. What you are seeing right now is frustration being vented over the fact that highly placed public officials seem to be above the law.
If this were France, they might be setting your car on fire right about now.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
The NSA is building the machine that our version of the Nazi's will take advantage of.
This is why some things should never be done in a Republic. The current regime might be "nice". However, the next regime might not be so nice.
Once a tool is available, someone can decide to abuse it.
The NSA doesn't make totalitarian regimes, they just make them possible.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
The color associated with the Republican party in the 80s was blue and the Democrats were red. It was apparently switched in a piece of political jujitsu.
But either way, that doesn't change the fact that communism has pretty much always been associated with red.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Normally do not comment on or make fun of grammar mistakes but "Escape Goats"?? LOL. Thanks, you made my afternoon.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
I must be missing something here. How does being a college/university student equate with being rich and/or spoiled? Everyone goes to college. Not all of us are rich.
So does bootlicking pay well these days?
they answer to US the PEOPLE
Well, not really. Don't believe everything you read (in the Constitution). The NSA is above the Constitution, the POTUS and Congress.
They didn't release pictures of Bin Laden's corpse, so wrong.
The reason that they could tell about Bin Laden was that the operation was over, and even then it was undesirable from a military perspective even if it was politically advantageous. The NSA's missions are on-going. News about them reveals on-going missions, not missions that are over and not to be repeated. Revealing NSA activities like Snowden has done damages US security, and is likely to damage European security as well.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Not nearly as offensive as the post it was replying to.
Or, to put in a different way, that's not the paragraph that was upvoted. The first paragraph was the one that received the votes. The second one was merely a bonus.
May we live long and die out
So it's a numbers game, eh? And a guy with a gun is a guy with a gun. The uniform makes no difference.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
As a potential employee, when being recruited, I damn well ask more questions then the recruiter. MY time IS that valuable and I DO want to know whoEXACTLY I'm working for.
Don't you?
They didn't release pictures of Bin Laden's corpse, so wrong.
Two crappy photos which provided no detail were released shortly after the incident.
The reason that they could tell about Bin Laden was that the operation was over, and even then it was undesirable from a military perspective even if it was politically advantageous.
It's a dumb idea to think we didn't want to make the announcement.
The NSA's missions are on-going.
And illegal.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Isn't it the job of prospective employees to ask questions about their potential employer? I know that if I were to work for the NSA again I would probably ask far better questions than the first time around...
No single rain drop feels it is responsible for the flood.
So when is James Clapper going to be charged with contempt of congress for telling them that the NSA isn't spying on millions of Americans?
Never. He parsed is words in such a way that he was deliberately misleading while telling the absolute truth. They weren't spying on Americans, they were spying on Phones. While we may think the two are linked and related, they are not in HIS view of the world, and he is correct in his viewpoint.
Remember when we all laughed at "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." - Bill Clinton? Funny huh?
Or how about "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." --President Bill Clinton ?
Not laughing now are you? Careful parsing of words is a craft for the highest level political operatives, and we laugh at the playful use of words. The problem is that we are not taking them seriously enough. Clinton did not have "sexual relations" (intercourse) with Ms Lewinsky, she gave him a blowjob. There is a difference in technicalities, the phrase was crafted in such a way that it was not a "lie", but rather a carefully crafted verbal version of prestidigitation. What you heard is not what was meant.
I have (no kidding) a sign above my desk, saying "I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Um, yes. That was their "job". Please don't let the subtlety of the label hit you on the way out.
I suspect that `adversary` is a technical term which probably means roughly `someone who doesn't want their conversation intercepted`.
The challenge for the person who has an adversary is to decode what the adversary has transmitted.
They are also a rare public face for an agency quite cloaked in secrecy. This necessitates this being part of their job description when the agency they work for is receiving scrutiny. Congress has proven that they won't provide constitutional oversight, so maybe we can starve them of talent by educating potential recruits to what they are doing.
Put an Escape Goat before a special entity; it's just like using a backslash.
The Stasi weren't just doing their job, and they weren't just cops.
The Stasi secret police were in effect Communist activists suppressing speech, religion, political opposition, political organization, and anything else that was deemed opposition to the communist one-party regime. They were an instrument of totalitarian rule.
Which was their job.
what's puzzling is that they decided to keep the recruitment drive now though... you would have thought that this was the obvious outcome
You're right about that. Their failure to see the obvious implies that what they may be good at is gathering data, but what they are bad at is understanding what it means.
By "entity" do you mean US government and current policy makers?
Former, current and future policy makers. They've never given back any of the rights they've chipped away at and they never will.
The law is public.
No... It is not!
Stop trolling :-)
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Escape goats are Mennonite getaway vehicles.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
She probably is a US citizen, and even if not, she would have something to contribute if she became one. Strangely enough, the US consists of people whose heritage is from all over the world. It's one of the strengths of the country that it can draw on that cultural heritage and diversity within its own citizens to better understand languages and other cultural matters when in pursuit of intelligence in other countries. A country with a more homogeneous population has a big problem trying to understand the rest of the world. Your bigoted attitude will discourage people from getting involved, and ultimately undermines the security of the country.
You're an idiot.
A sales clerk is not really a recruiter. Please don't try to paint recruiter's (tough) job in such an uninspired, cliched light. If a recruiter doesn't know the company's secrets, that's fine. But they ought to know enough to cover for the marketing blurbs they're using to recruit with, otherwise they're a failure as a recruiter. I think many of these questions were fair game.. I wouldn't work for a company whose recruiters didn't know anything more than a 10 second marketing spiel.
I find that being a good liar helps you are everything, not just spying. I do not want to tut my own horn, but I am an amazing liar. I'm so good half the times I'm not even sure if I am lying or if I actually believe what I am saying.
What do you think the NSA's primary function is? Fucking moron.
...and yet you guys still invaded Iraq.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Gotcha, so we draw the line when it comes to genecide. We used to draw the line at torture and stripping people of their citizenship but I guess we can move the goal post to make us feel better about slipping into a totalitarian government. Nevermind the fact that we were doing just fine before all of this ridiculous behavior.
I'm tired of this bullshit from people like you. Just "doing your job" is not justification for furthering the agenda of a quite clearly malicious organization. And before someone decides that I'm just some random asshat who is comfy in his job: I have quite full time jobs for pretty decent money twice in my life to become a freelancer. I hate it, and am looking to exit it, but I at least took responsibility for myself instead of just saying: "Oh this company was paying me to steal code, but it's okay because I was just following orders!"
I find your take on the situation to be way more offensive.
If I had mod points I would also mod you troll. I cannot in good conscious believe that anyone would seriously take the position you have. You must be trolling.
Ahh to be young again, and have a strict moral code. Yes I am a sellout but I am glad I did. I still have my lines of what I consider right and wrong. However a lot of the things that use to enrage me as a kid no longer really bother me, as I realize that it just isn't that important on the grand scheme of things.
PC (Windows vs Linux) vs. Mac: So what after 10 years or so I need to buy new software and hardware anyways, I'll choose what I like then.
Open Source: well I no longer have free time to tinker with the source code. So I just get what works, If I need to shell out a few hundred bucks for software so be it, I am a sell out remember, I get paid to do my work so I have money.
Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll: I am married so Sex is out of the picture (in terms of it feeling like I am breaking the rules), Drugs (I am too old to care if they make me look cool or not, so I rather not mess with my body), Rock and Roll I have an iPhone I can listen to any damn music I want.
In summary I am comfortable with myself and my beliefs, I don't feel the need to show people off to make them look stupid, when they are just doing their job. As I see it, the NSA a government job, I get paid to use Powerful computers and make interesting algorithms. I can justify many of the moral imbiguities of saying it is helping more people than they are hurting.
Yes being a sellout give your more time in your life to be a good person.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
It was a stunt, nothing more.
Well thank goodness we have you here to set us all straight. What would they do without you?
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
This line of defense didn't worked at Nuremberg.
Well, if he showed up at a school, trying to get people to sign up for jobs at the hospital, then he would be representing that hospital to the school...You do know hospitals are made up of people don't actually have mouths, right?
FTFY According to Chromas they are actually \Mennonite_Escape_Vehicles.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
From your illogical fanatical responses and the irony of your sig you must work for the ministry of truth, right?
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
The recruiters were there to offer jobs to people, not to answer for every controversy involving the agency. It isn't their job, and it isn't especially reasonable. Do you harass sales clerks about sweat shop labor used to manufacture some particular good in their store? This isn't much different.
Are you really that big of a fucking moron? Comparing sales clerks to recruiters???
No, I don't expect a sales clerk to answer questions about a company's sourcing of its products. But a recruiter for that same company had fucking well better have answers if I want to ask questions about the company's ethics towards its workers and/or suppliers!!!
So you are comparing a private hate group opposed to blacks, Jews, gays, Catholics, immigrants, and who knows what else to an agency of the US government that no doubt celebrates all the usual diversity related holidays and recruits people with diverse backgrounds?
That is ridiculous, nonsense, bordering on unhinged.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I'm wondering why the recruiters didn't stop right there and wait for a question within the context of their purpose for being on the campus. I know college is a place to explore and have liberal discussion, but this looks like the childish behavior I'd expect when reading article comments on CNN.
This is why the government seems secretive and not forthcoming with information. The media just tries to tear apart anything said and puts people that have no business of being on the record for an event they have nothing to do with in the public eye. There recruiters were not upper level decision makers, just folks trying to do their job.
All well and good, but their job was recruitment for an agency currently in the public spotlight for behaving illegally and then lying to Congress about it. If the recruiters are unwilling to deal with that as part of recruitment, they'd be better off to pack up and go home until this fiasco blows over. As it was, being part of the public face of the NSA, they actually ended up making the NSA's image worse instead of better.
And yes, recruitment is tied to marketing -- the NSA should have handled this better and never allowed the recruiters on to the campus without some situational training they obviously never received.
"...he was deliberately misleading while telling the absolute truth."
Here's the thing. Being deliberately misleading *is* lying. That's actually the basic definition of it. He didn't quibble about the meaning of a few words. He deliberately chose his words to mislead the senators to whom he was testifying, in contravention of his oath to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth".
Clinton had an issue with the phrasing of a question, and gets raked over the coals for asking for clarification so that he could answer the question honestly *and* accurately. Note: 'is' is present tense, if he no longer had a relationship with Lewinsky when the question was being asked, then he could be in trouble (perjury) for saying that he did. As for the 'sexual relations' claim, there's actually a legal definition to that term. Go dig it up, and you'll see that, even by the claims of his detractors, he did *not* have 'sexual relations' with Lewinsky.
When being questioned in court, be *very* careful to answer the question that is being asked, instead of some other *similar* question. Lawyers can be tricky with their phrasing. If you need clarification, ask for it.
As a potential employee, when being recruited, I damn well ask more questions then the recruiter. MY time IS that valuable and I DO want to know whoEXACTLY I'm working for.
Don't you?
That's valid, to an extent. But it's still the NSA.You need to accept there's certain things they can't divulge and it's pretty dumb to try to get that information out of them when you have no need to know.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
" And what is worse, they are in the perfect place to be escape goats or just false positives if anything happens-- gmuslera"
This needs to be the Slashdot "Quote of the Day" at the bottom of the screen. Escape Goats...I'm literally in tears right now, that was so funny. It's not often a Freudian Slip survives the typing process.
How do you know whether an order is lawful or not if the law itself is a secret?
"Piter, too, is dead."
There's also no spoon
I've always strongly suspected that the Dish was somehow involved in its disappearance--but cannot, at present, prove it.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
The amount of stupidity in your post is too high. Why the hell are you not allowed to know how the law works? The law is public. You're just too lazy to study it.
To actually study and know all the laws that apply to you living in the US of today would require more than just not being lazy, it would require a full-time staff, at least. Even the so-called "representatives" voting on the laws don't have the time to study and understand them. And even if you could get to that point of knowing all the "public" laws (not to mention the ones you have to pay a license fee to even read, or the ones that are kept secret for "national security"), the amount of machinations you would have to go through to not break any of them would be outside the realm of feasibility. At times you will find yourself in a catch-22 where one law says you must do A, and another says you are not allowed to do A. Did you know if you toss out a piece of junk mail addressed to someone else you could be charged with a felony that carries 5 years in jail time? That law exists in spite of the fact that the post office cannot forward that mail anyway.
Harvey Silverglate estimates that the typical American unwittingly commits three felonies a day, and he backs it up very well. This is the infrastructure that police states are built upon. You don't need to look for crimes, you just pick someone and find some laws to charge them with violating.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
We are a nation of laws, sure... Secret laws overseen by secret courts who round up people and hold them in secret prisons. Hard to be proud of these laws.
A functioning democracy needs the voters to be sufficiently aware of what their elected officials are doing to be able to be informed voters. Adopting an attitude of only sharing with the country what you have to, instead of only hiding what you have to undermines the whole logical argument supporting the concept of a self governing populace.
Oh well.
No but while job hunting I will question the company questions in relation to comments online left by those who work, worked, interviewed and turned the offer down. While the company is interviewing me I am interviewing them threw there recruiters, and any other point of contacts I have. This makes the hiring managers feel more secure when I accept the job because I invest a significant amount of my time determining if I desire to work at a company. I recently turned down a company using this method. The recruter thanked me for asking the questions I did and letting him know the reason I was turning them down because it gives them insite about what is keeping the talent they want from joining them.
It's not. Neither is ignorance of the law.
At least not for us peons. The folks in charge don't have to worry about it so much.
Foreign spying.
Yes, that was a bad argument, if you were German. Its a good argument if you are American - My Lai anyone ?
These aren't sales clerks. They are representatives of an organization which is seeking a bilateral agreement with free individuals, and the general expectation is that they are, indeed, able to answer questions about the services expected of those they want to recruit, and what is offered in return which includes pay, working conditions, how interesting the work is, and whether or not anyone in good conscience could work for them.
I am comparing one group that does things generally recognized as bad for society (in spite of their propaganda to the contrary) with another.
I'll happily trade away the meager incremental improvement all this spying, torturing, and drone killing has brought me to be able to say I am proud of my nation without squirming.
Compare car deaths since 2000 to terrorist deaths, and tell me why we are spending orders of magnitude more on our spying/military/secrecy industrial complex than on car safety improvements.
I have a porch in the front and back of my house, and a "real swimming pool" versus one of those hastily-programmed "virtual swimming pools".
No, they are government employees, which according to our HIGHEST LAWS means they answer to US the PEOPLE.
*sigh* Great. Another dipshit who's going to grow up to become one of the old geezers taking up space in courtrooms, shrieking about how "I'M TEH PEOPLEZ AND I PAYS UR CELARY!!1!" every time you get a speeding ticket...
We are a nation of laws, not men. If you don't agree with the actions of a governmental organization then you need to lobby your governmental representatives with your views.
You also need to accept that your views might not be the majority and that, to some extent, we're a country of majority rule.
Freedom does not depend on majority rule. In fact, it frequently stands against it. That's what the "tyranny of the majority" means.
Desegregation was unpopular. Interracial marriage was unpopular. Letting groups like the KKK and Communists have speak their minds was unpopular. Burning draft cards was unpopular, and burning the flag in protest still is. Keeping church out of state is unpopular. The right to marry whoever and however many people you want is unpopular.
Interring Japanese and German citizens during WW2 was popular. Laws requiring everyone to salute the flag regardless of minority religious belief were (and still are) popular. Prohibition was popular -- at first. Racially restrictive housing covenants were popular in the communities that "benefited" from them.
If polls today show that a slim majority support the NSA spying on us, then remember that equivalent numbers sat out the revolutionary war or actively aided the British. The majority is not always right. The majority does not always stand for real freedom -- all they want is the freedom to keep living their narrowly-focused, myopic lives in the same day to day way that they currently do, and to hell with everyone else.
I think most Americans would gladly vote in a dictator if that dictator established that everyone had to live the way that they think people should, if they called it the "freedom" to do so. History is filled with peoples who chose to do just that.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
If the 'leadership' of a group refuses to answer the questions *truthfully* (especially if it has repeatedly gotten caught in, and been forced to admit to, it's lies), you damn well better believe that people are going to start asking those questions of *everyone and anyone* associated with the group.
I have met a lot of those recuriters, they are great people. They are only doing their job. I love how you are mad at the NSA for spying, you should go to the top of the food chain, Congress is the one who authorized it/allowed it. Even after what has been released there are few congressmen who are against it. So that's where you should turn your anger.
And the reason that I should be unfailingly polite to every hatchetman I meet while I futilely attempt to even get noticed by the top of the food chain is what exactly?
I'd be more conflicted about it if they were a bunch of conscripts, or had been stop-lossed into participation that they stopped actually believing in N tours ago; but the further you get from those scenarios, the less 'just doing my job' buys you.
No argument from me that socialist/communist is traditionally represented by red, but one cheap shot deserved another.
Reading further on this, it seems there was no consistent colouring between by broadcasters up until the 2000 election, when the post-election confusion made the media settle it for good. One graphics editor claims it was simply that Republican and Red both start with an "R" so it was easier to remember which colour had been assigned to which party.
Lobbying just means to communicate your views with them. Yes, companies invest billions in getting their opinions heard, but average everyday people can pick up the phone, email, or send letters in just the same. It's a separate point about how ineffective that is, and doesn't make it appropriate to go around abusing people.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
they answer to US the PEOPLE
Well, not really. Don't believe everything you read (in the Constitution). The NSA is above the Constitution, the POTUS and Congress.
And it's our job, We The People, to change that. Because that is not the country that we want to live in, and it's not the country the founders tried to create. It's not even the country described in our documents.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I'm not convinced that anyone ordered torture, because George Tenet insisted that waterboarding isn't torture.
Now, some would say the fact that Bill Clinton appointed George Tenet is enough to ruin Tenet's credibility... but that's not enough for me. I will need more evidence that Tenet was lying when he said waterboarding isn't torture.
But if an NSA actually wants to protect America from very real threats, he gets his life destroyed. And NSA job works best if you have no morals or conscience.
How do you know whether an order is lawful or not if the law itself is a secret?
IANAL but it seems to me that it's a basic tenet of law that you have the right to know what you're up against; you have a right to know what you're being charged with and to face your accuser in court. In practice, of course, both of these laws are being denied people, but they are the rights we supposedly enjoy.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Seriously, everyone go listen to the recording. That is some hardcore, no bullshit Q&A. Er, well, the Q's were. The NSA stooges spent the whole time beating around the bush and using their native tongue of Orwellian doublespeak with every non-answer they gave.
I gotta ask, have you never had mod points before? I'm assuming you normally troll some site like Digg where people vote things up and down, but this is not how /. works. If you want to be taken seriously, you should learn that so you do not sound so stupid.
It was really easy for Clinton to parse words when the special prosecutor had specifically submitted an altered definition of 'sex' to specifically exclude oral and when under oath that was the definition used.
I didn't go to college cause I couldn't afford to. I bet you don't know anyone who voted for Nixon either.
Why not? If they aren't doing anything wrong, they have nothing to hide...
Or at least, that's what their bosses keep telling us.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
We are a nation of laws
Used to be. What use are those laws when the NSA simply breaks them? What use is congressional oversight when the NSA simply lies to them?
And in Star Wars too!!
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
That's beautiful. I'm sure your fantastical idealism will get you far. Unfortunately, your views are not in alignment with anything other than your fantasy. We are ruled by bureaucrats and M.I.C. power brokers for whom no checks and balances have ever truly existed. Politicians are little more than two-dimensional sheep standing in as smoke and cover for our true masters.
Obviously we should vote, and obviously we should lobby our government representation. However weak they may be, they are the only legal lever we have. Regrettably these steps only address but a small fraction of our government, its reach and its behavior. The Snowdens of the world are the ones that extend our representation, extend our leverage. We need to convince the politicians that the security of their position in office would be more so if they facilitated whistle blowing.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
That's kind of ridiculous, isn't it? Of course you ask questions. The issue is, when and who do you ask them of? A recruiter is generally going to have limited scope. For in-depth questions you're generally going to have to ask those at an interview which generally involves multiple specialists, including prospective managers. I would expect that you would have done some research in preparation for the interview.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
So we have government agency working to prevent surprise attacks by enemy nations and terrorism against the US versus racist intimidation and lynching? And you think they are both bad for society? I'm not buying that. Debating individual NSA activities might be useful, but not blanket condemnation.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Of course not. So long as it is clandestine, it is perfectly acceptable and no one need have a guilty conscience.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
Recruitment process must be a two-way street or you're doing your part wrong. You must learn about the place of employment, and the controversies are part of it. The sales clerks aren't there to recruit for the company or to answer such questions. Recruiters - are.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
The NSA are "doing their jobs" in exactly the same way the the Stasi were.
And the NSAs job is to be "an instrument of totalitarian rule" just like the Stasi were.
Don't they already have everybody's resumés in their files? Can't they just send letters to their selected candidates, saying, "Greetings, You have been selected to work for the NSA. Contact us at ______ to begin collecting your paychecks. Note: Information that you are now an NSA employee has been posted on your social media pages, so, of course, no one else is ever going to hire you..."
Nice try:
Recruiters are only one part of the process. Interviews are another. You should also be doing your own research.
Sales clerks are there to sell and answer questions from customers. One could argue the same of recruiters. Neither of them are unbounded in the issues they deal with.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The natural order of affairs in the world is that the Mighty will rule the rest. Just like Tiger->Deer population control, the rest will eventually rise(yes economy ultimately translates to food) and put Democracy in place but the gravity of the natural order will pull back and restore tyranny. Pendulum will swing again. This is what Newton's law tries to tell us. Action -> Equal and "opposite" reaction - Evolution of Democracy -> Devolution of Democracry > ED > DV > ....
No amount of whistle blowing etc.. can slow down the Devolution part. Everything is natural. Nature is unimaginably powerful. It is arrogance that makes us believe that we can make an impact, save earth, do good, democracy etc... , Nature will ultimately make you realize it is all futile. You are born to have fun. As per Newton's law Fun's equal and opposite.. Misery!, so unless some have misery how can some have fun? If everyone on earth had 20 bucks then who will be rich and who will be poor. Economy stalls. Equality means, no activity that is death like a still pond. Throw a stone and you will have creation, creation of waves, fun. Action is disturbance - result is fun.. In fact in nature there is no such thing as good or bad, it is human perception, a win for me is loss for someone else. Breathing is good for me but bad for many who(micro organism) will die because of me breathing. We don't care about them(micro o) but for nature they are as important or as useless as we are.
There are too many circular or cyclical order of things around us as evidence that nothing goes in a straight line forever. In the larger picture or long run everything is circular err. spherical. And everything needs the other for their existence. Cops need crooks for the cops to exist and vice versa.
The Stasi's "job" was political oppression. That isn't the job of the NSA.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The whole "I was just following orders" routine didn't work at Nuremberg, and should not work here.
For that to get anywhere you have to get the USA onto the loosing side of a war, otherwise el presidente will just make it legal post facto if not already the case.
So, if the KKK switches to a model of disaster relief (for white people) and lynching black people, it's OK?
The NSA has jumped the shark. The best bet now is burn it down and build an organization that actually sticks to it's mission from the ashes.
They seem to see the American People AND Congress as enemies to spy on and lie to. Even other government agencies are moving to encrypt their communications now.
Don't confuse their stated mission for what they actually do.
Hilarious!!! I can't believe nobody else got this.
Let's make like a bird... and get the flock outta here.
If the order is unconstitutional, or against international laws of war, then it was your job to refuse. They gave classes on both during basic training. Easy enough to grasp the concepts.
Seriously, this is just like campus in 1968 - mid 70s.
Completely Agree - small edit:
I just wish the other government agencies were held to that belief^W international treaty.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
The recruiters at these types of gatherings are absolutely discussing organizational policy. The fact you are unaware of that suggests you've never been to one and are really just making up whatever you want to believe in to argue. If they discuss policy as part of their presentation then policy is a fair game to ask questions about.
So you're saying that every citizen of the United States should be expected to know and understand all 5000+ laws that are on the books for just the federal level? Each and every person in this country commits on average 3 felonies a day without realizing it and that is the problem. When you can be arrested for almost any arbitrary reason then it is merely a matter of time before LEOs apply said laws in an equally arbitrary manner. Why? Because they can...
Two lions and a sheep vote on whats for dinner...
Mutton, obviously. However, if mutton is still the main course when there are two lions and ten sheep, then you have a problem.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Yes, and how does that work. We were told that it was a legal invasion. MANY other countries supported the invasion. There is no way the typical grunt would have enough knowledge to make a well informed decision on that. How exactly does the typical grunt know that the WMD thing was BS?
The point of it is when your CO tells you to shoot unarmed civilians, it is your job to refuse. It is when your CO gives you orders that obviously contravene the constitution, your job is to say no. When your CO orders you to haze someone, the answer is no. When your CO orders you to cover up his crimes, the answer is no. These are the things in which the enlisted person knows for a fact he would be breaking the law by following the order. Knowing whether or not the entire war is lawful is above your pay grade.
When the NSA tells its workers to spy on Americans, those workers either DO know, or SHOULD know that it would be in violation of the 4th amendment. That means they are following unlawful orders.
Excellent edit.
No it is not a separate point, if your representative won't give a flying fuck what you have to say unless there is a wad of Benjamins in it for them then no, common people cannot effectively lobby for their views.
You are arguing over semantics and semiotics. At the end of the day you have to pay to play.
"I was just following orders" won't work in the US either - if someone else takes over and decides to prosecute US citizens under international law for actions they took at home and abroad. Just as 'I was only following orders' would have worked out fine for those on trial at Nuremberg if the Nazis had won the war.
I appreciate P&T for their candor and honesty... but they are also evangelical atheists. I haven't seen all their episodes, but I've seen them cover religion a number of times... always unfairly (they find the stupid guy with a fancy degree to interview and mock). If they have ever said anything about Mrs Theresa, I'd take it with more than a grain of salt. (Yes, I'm religious. No, I'm not Catholic.)
I don't know if the criticisms against her are fair or not, but I do know that many good people have had mud unfairly slung at them because they're religious, to destroy their credibility. It's happened many times before, and it will yet happen again and again.
One wolf claims the land is his and that the sheep initiated force against him by being on his land.
The leaders of the NSA will be in hysterics over this story, and the recording. Far from damaging their recruitment drive, such activity massively enhances their efforts. The NSA wants amoral vicious idiots with a serious chip on their shoulder. They certainly don't expect to recruit decent normal people.
History is your friend. Look at an authoritarian police-state regime that engaged in massive acts of spying and aggressive warfare. The USA simply follows a pattern laid down many thousands of years ago. Technology has changed, but Human nature has not.
The type of kid that might otherwise have shot up his school makes an excellent NSA recruit if he is intelligent and bothers to get a decent education. The kid that tortures small animals, or the one that spreads vindictive false rumours around school for amusement can also grow up and make ideal NSA employees. When these vile anti-social types hear a recording like the one here, they are far more likely to think that the NSA would be a good place to seek a career.
Most evil isn't an organised conspiracy in a simple sense. It is an invitation to highly disturbed individuals to join a team, so they can show the rest of us who really has the power is society. NSA personnel are bitter and twisted people who know full well the harm they do. They are not horrified by the total surveillance they help put the population of the US under- they glory in it.
Many of them are serious sexual perverts too. The Xbox One gives the NSA the ability to immediately start streaming sound and video from ANY console that is currently connected to the Internet. The Kinect system can actually alert NSA servers when the pattern of Human movement in from of the console sensor indicates sexual activity is taking place. If you think hundreds of NSA people are not drooling at the prospect of peeking into the homes of millions of Americans once Microsoft roles out its NSA designed spy platform, you are a naive simple-minded fool. Even your president, Clinton, stated that it was worth risking EVERYTHING in order to enjoy the sexual thrill of pushing a cigar into the private parts of his 'partner' during their love making session in the Oval Office. That is what the call of sexual perversion means to these people.
These people are bad in every sense of the word, from the petty and pathetic to the genocidal. Previous regimes saw the same pattern of power abuse, from the trivial to the outrageously massive. For these people, all forms of abuse of power give them a thrill.
Obviously we should vote, and obviously we should lobby our government representation. However weak they may be, they are the only legal lever we have.
Voting doesn't count for much if you can be disenfranchised at the drop of a hat and your district has been gerrymandered such that the incumbent's only threat comes from within the same party. (IE primaries)
The game is rigged, the dice are crooked, the House will always win. Every time.
And people are finally figuring it out, I'd say it's only a matter of time before they get pissed off enough about it to do something more drastic then going to the polls.
You mean they're "just following orders"? Ah, I guess it's okay then.
They're not soldiers, genocide is no where insight, your vague analogy is invalid.
Just so you know, the NSA is actually a branch of the US military. While Genocide is nowhere in sight, a branch of the US military embarking on secret AND covert operations on the people they are sworn to protect, and then intentionally misleading Congress about it when questioned, definitely holds up under the framework of the analogy. Would you rather people didn't raise a stink until it DID come to genocide?
And if you want to blame someone about the "poor recruiters just doing their job" -- their job is to interact with potential candidates. If they can't stand the heat (which they seemed to be able to do, even though it made them uncomfortable) the blame isn't with the people they invited, it's with the people who sent them out to recruit totally unprepared for what any sane person would have seen coming. That's right, instead of attempting to invalidate people's arguments on slashdot, why not put THIS blame where it is due -- with NSA HR?
Not to invoke Godwin's law here but during the Nuremberg trials, several prison camp guards protested that they were "just doing their job" when they were actively participating on one of the most egregious examples of human barbarity in the history of our species (not because of the numbers but because of the fact that wiping out a subset of the population was the singular goal of the project and how methodically it was pursued)
They were still hung by the way.
The president has constitutionally-granted authority over of the armed forces. We have a legal draft. Combine those two things, and ergo, it is within generally-accepted powers for the president to be able to label you a Designated Terroree, such that you're required to be afraid whenever told to, if people being afraid is believed to be militarily advantageous.
OTOH, the Third Amendment means that you don't have to be afraid whenever you're at home. So the president's legal powers over your emotions are limited, somewhat.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Another nigger on welfare
The current regime isn't "nice".
relates to your point; from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement
---
Selective enforcement is the ability that executors of the law (such as police officers or administrative agencies, in some cases) have to arbitrarily select choice individuals as being outside of the law. The use of enforcement discretion in an arbitrary way is referred to as selective enforcement or selective prosecution.
Historically, selective enforcement is recognized as a sign of tyranny, and an abuse of power, because it violates rule of law, allowing men to apply justice only when they choose.[citation needed] Aside from this being inherently unjust, it almost inevitably must lead to favoritism and extortion, with those empowered to choose being able to help their friends, take bribes, and threaten those from whom they desire favors.
However, the converse can also be true. Police officer discretion is sometimes warranted for minor offenses,[citation needed] for instance where a warning to a teenager could be quite effective without putting the teen through a legal process and also reduces costs of governmental legal resources. Another example is patrol officers parked on the side of a highway for speed enforcement. It may be impractical and cost prohibitive to ticket everyone who is going any amount over the speed limit, so the officer should watch for the more egregious cases and those drivers who are showing signs of driving recklessly.
Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886),[1] was the first case where the United States Supreme Court ruled that a law that is race-neutral on its face, but is administered in a prejudicial manner, is an infringement of the Equal Protection Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/russiansecurity.asp
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
And how does one go about changing that when the laws of this nation have been so contorted and tweaked for the special interest groups that voting has devolved into a mixture of false-choice prisoners' dilemma and bread and circuses for the mob?
It goes way deeper than that.
I am Canadian, but we have the same basic system. There are systems and laws in place to stop you from even just learning one law.
Unless you go to school and become a lawyer you cannot know the law, or what will get you arrested. And only then, will you have a best guess at a probability of getting arrested. Alternatively, if you have enough money to own a lawyer, you can also be generally safe, as you can ask their advise before doing anything.
I once tried to learn knife laws in Canada. We only have about 5 laws, maybe 100 words of laws concerning knives.
But our systems are built on precedent, and really how much you can afford to spend on a lawyer.
So there will be literally be hundreds of books law precedent, which is more important than the letter, to read with respect to knife law. And unless you can afford it, their is absolutely no talking to a lawyer before you are arrested.
What I got out of this.
From my understanding, after reading the letter of the law over and over again is that technically I am allowed to do pretty much anything (carry any knife I would care to own anywhere in any way). And if I could afford a team of lawyers, I am pretty confident that I could protect that right. But in the real world were I do not own a cent, I absolutely should not even carry a Walmart pocket knife across the street to cut up a bunch of boxes. Because people have ended up going to jail for less.
You cannot know the law, because the real law is hidden (non lawyers are not allowed to give law advise, and lawyer cost too much). And even lawyers and the police do not know the law. it is all interpretable to mean anything that they want it to mean.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
You got me. If I knew, I'd have done something about it already. Historically it seems that things only change when a substantial percentage of the population is willing to take up their torches and pitchforks, or when societal failures lead to weakness that permits a foreign aggressor to invade and rearrange the shape of a society. That seems to rarely make things better, though clearly it does that sometimes. Mostly it just makes things different.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
That is just the beginning
I am Canadian, but we have the same basic system. There are systems and laws in place to stop you from even just learning one law.
Unless you go to school and become a lawyer you cannot know the law, or what will get you arrested. And only then, will you have a best guess at a probability of getting arrested. Alternatively, if you have enough money to own a lawyer, you can also be generally safe, as you can ask their advise before doing anything.
I once tried to learn knife laws in Canada. We only have about 5 laws, maybe 100 words of laws concerning knives.
But our systems are built on precedent, and really how much you can afford to spend on a lawyer.
So there will be literally be hundreds of books law precedent, which is more important than the letter, to read with respect to knife law. And unless you can afford it, their is absolutely no talking to a lawyer before you are arrested.
What I got out of this.
From my understanding, after reading the letter of the law over and over again is that technically I am allowed to do pretty much anything (carry any knife I would care to own anywhere in any way). And if I could afford a team of lawyers, I am pretty confident that I could protect that right. But in the real world were I do not own a cent, I absolutely should not even carry a Walmart pocket knife across the street to cut up a bunch of boxes. Because people have ended up going to jail for less.
You cannot know the law, because the real law is hidden (non lawyers are not allowed to give law advise, and lawyer cost too much). And even lawyers and the police do not know the law. it is all interpretable to mean anything that they want it to mean.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
It certainly is the job of recruiters to be able to answer questions about the job. When I go recruiting, I'm usually handed some documents with the firm-approved answers to common questions--some of which may be sensitive points.
You have absolutely no idea what these people have put on the line for your security and freedom over the decades.
It looks like "our freedom and security" are exactly what they excel at putting on the line.
But yeah, whatever. Go wolverines!
No, I don't think it's ridiculous at all, and it's even LESS ridiculous because this is a Government Agency. There's no excuse for the staff that they send out into the public (especially in light of the recent spying bullshit) should be at least nominally coached on their own defense. Keep in mind, also, that these aren't people that were called back after submitting resumes - these are people who went to school and were no doubt informed at the last minute that the NSA was on campus and looking for workers. The NSA? Yeah, they knew they were going to be there well in advance (and I'm sorry, but a college is probably the worst place to go to find pro-Government supporters during the BEST of times, which this isn't). A recruiter for a government agency doesn't have "another" job....these aren't like the recruiters that scour Dice or Monster...these are people that are paid for the sole function of headhunting for the NSA. They don't need to know about the FBI or any other agency...literally, their job is the FACE of the "company" that they're hiring for.
Of course, this also completely ignores the fact that...well shit, what in the fuck were they thinking starting some sort of recruitment drive after the last two weeks anyway? Wouldn't the BEST thing for them to do be to keep a low profile? I sure as hell wouldn't stick my neck out in a hurry if I realized that most of the world was pissed at my company...I'd at least wait until my company has either 1) Found some means to justify their douchy behavior (like maybe giving some details on what it's actually accomplished, not that I think that would do much good, but it would be a start) or 2) made some significant donations to worthy causes to "balance" the douchy behavior (No, I don't think this is right either, but it's the way that most people think so it's expected) or 3) wait until enough time has passed so that most of the public has forgotten (American memories are about as good as a sugar carving in a monsoon, you can't tell me they couldn't have rescheduled for a few weeks down the road when we're all focused on the NEXT crisis).
No, they were stupid and compounded stupid with stupid and then started crying when people called them on it. I don't feel sorry for them even a little.
If my employer, a hospital, started executing patients they had sworn to heal, I'd expect some questions even though I do research....
Methinks you took words out of his mouth and replaced them with what you wanted to hear.
The recruiting interview wasn't a stunt... sending it to the Guardian was. It was a publicity stunt, done using the standard journalistic and marketing methods. This doesn't make it bad, wrong, immoral, or invalid. If you follow the interview, you'll see that the recruiters were asked pointed questions that anyone considering working in translation for the NSA SHOULD be asking. The Guardian excerpted the juicy bits and put their own spin on it.
I'm starting to wonder why you and ThorGod are attempting to minimalize the pointed comments to such a degree... you obviously both feel passionate about protecting public servants from "undue" scrutiny and feel that the approach used here was unprofessional. Most people on slashdot appear to disagree with both of you, but you keep bringing back the same arguments again and again down the message thread. Reading your message history is definitely enlightening. You raise some good points and then destroy them by attacking the posters for their lack of right thinking instead of letting the valid points stand on their own merits. In short, you're on par with me (now that I've made this post) :)
It doesn't matter what Tenet insists, the US has prosecuted people for waterboarding in the past, both in world war 2 and domestically. It doesn't magically become legal just because some bureaucrat insists that it is.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
And people are finally figuring it out, I'd say it's only a matter of time before they get pissed off enough about it to do something more drastic then going to the polls.
Which, to be honest is what scares me. Why are they letting the mask slip so far? These people KNOW PR and they're botching it so badly. Why?
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
The Stasi's "job" was political oppression. That isn't the job of the NSA.
How do you know what the job of the NSA is? Have you read their charter?
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
>He parsed is words in such a way that he was deliberately misleading while telling the absolute truth.
Are you insane? Read the quote that Uberbah posted below and tell me how it can be parsed in any way that makes it less than a lie. There was no wiggle room in his statement, he flat out answered 'no'. And it's not just our phones that data is being collected about, it is the content of all of our emails and text messages, which he also knew about. He belongs in prison with Oliver North - oops! yet another example of how the laws in the US only apply to us little people.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
This argument no longer works. The time for reckoning is here. You cant shout NATIONAL SECURITY forever and expect a self-governing populace to put up with it.
Good-bye
The point of it is when your CO tells you to shoot unarmed civilians, it is your job to refuse.
What if your CO tells you those Jews^H towel-heads are conspiring with the enemy and order you to load them into boxcars for "indefinite detention pending an investigation"? And to load a few canisters of cyclone-B while you're at it...
What if you know your CO is lying but can't prove it?
So now having a sense of ethics=hating the NSA.
Sounds doubleplusgood to me!
But they knew what they were doing was wrong, which is why they intentionally missed every shot.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
If you want to keep sucking off your jackbooted masters, you'll need a new sound bite to try to excuse it. That one stopped working decades ago.
I'd rather be sucking off my jackbooted masters than silently crying apathetic tears while being anally raped by them like so many on Slashdot take it.
Seriously -- we all know we live in a plutocracy that is fast becoming a police state.
But for all the bitching and moaning about it, not a damn thing will be done about it.
This should be modded to +10. It's probably the most concise and brilliant refutation I've ever seen of the notion that we are somehow still a society guided by rule of law.
Nonaggression works!
Selective memory much? The USA bullied a whole bunch of countries with no backbones to accept their stupidity or be labelled terrorists. Every idiot in the world knew it was wrong but I guess maybe/you're right. USians are just to idiotic to be able to tell one country from another.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
I expect they would continue with choir practice instead of discussion. Debates or discussions tend to be more interesting with two sides, neither of which are straw men.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Think of Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses getting door after door slammed in their face, or getting laughed at, or challenged. Is that really likely to make them leave their tight knit social circle related to their professed faith? Look what happens to them when they do, by analogy with this Christian missionary who lost his job and family after being deconverted by the tribe he went to "help":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr3q6Cid1po
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Everett#Don.27t_Sleep.2C_There_Are_Snakes:_Life_and_Language_in_the_Amazonian_Jungle
"Influenced by the Pirahã's concept of truth, his belief in Christianity slowly diminished and he became an atheist. He says that he was having serious doubts by 1982, and had lost all faith by 1985. He would not tell anyone about his atheism until the late 90s;[9] when he finally did, his marriage ended in divorce and two of his three children broke off all contact. However, by 2008 full contact and relations have been restored with his children, who now seem to accept his viewpoint on theism.[10]"
90% of jobs are probably either useless of harmful these days. There are not enough for everyone as long as people need jobs to get income to survive, absent deeper changes:
http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
http://pdfernhout.net/beyond-a-jobless-recovery-knol.html
I kind of cringed reading that back and forth on the blog with the recruiters the same way I do when watching a "Yes Men" action. Such narrow challenges rarely address the fundamental deep issues, like I tried to do here:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-dealing-with-social-hurricanes.html
"This approximately 60 page document is a ramble about ways to ensure the CIA (as well as other big organizations) remains (or becomes) accountable to human needs and the needs of healthy, prosperous, joyful, secure, educated communities. The primarily suggestion is to encourage a paradigm shift away from scarcity thinking & competition thinking towards abundance thinking & cooperation thinking within the CIA and other organizations. I suggest that shift could be encouraged in part by providing publicly accessible free "intelligence" tools and other publicly accessible free information that all people (including in the CIA and elsewhere) can, if they want, use to better connect the dots about global issues and see those issues from multiple perspectives, to provide a better context for providing broad policy advice. It links that effort to bigger efforts to transform our global society into a place that works well for (almost) everyone that millions of people are engaged in. A central Haudenosaunee story-related theme is the transformation of Tadodaho through the efforts of the Peacemaker from someone who was evil and hurtful to someone who was good and helpful."
Or here:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
"Likewise, even United States three-letter agencies like the NSA and the CIA, as well as their foreign counterparts, are becoming ironic institutions in many ways. Despite probably having more computing power per square foot than any other place in the world, they seem not to have thought much about the implications of all that computer power and organized information to transform the world into a place of abundance for all."
There were some easy answers th
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
OTOH, the Third Amendment means that you don't have to be afraid whenever you're at home.
You mean because there will not be any soldiers living there with you? That could be kind of scary.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
"We ceased being a nation of laws a while ago."
Nation of laws was always a myth, the founding fathers of america were basically terrorists to the british. Let's not forget that. The current rulers of the world want to stop change (reform/replacement) of capitalism at all costs.
Link
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
Serious question, during war can a commanding officer threaten you with deadly force if you refuse an order?
I've seen that kind of thing in movies so I don't know if it's true in real life past or present.
Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
Don't worry about people who mod troll. In my experience, troll mod means one of two things.
1.) I disagree, but don't have any facts or evidence to make a good argument.
2.) I can't handle the truth.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Isn't it the job of prospective employees to ask questions about their potential employer? I know that if I were to work for the NSA again I would probably ask far better questions than the first time around...
If you want the job, otherwise you are making an ass of yourself.
it's pretty dumb to try to get that information out of them when you have no need to know.
Funny. That's what I keep saying about the NSA spying on our close allies. Sorry. Former allies. The German people also had no need to know about the concentration camps, right.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Nevermind the fact that we were doing just fine before all of this ridiculous behavior.
I don't buy this. I have no facts to back it up, but I'm pretty confident that there has always been some small-ish group that is given the green light to violate due process and any other laws and dig into whatever they can, so long as they keep it hush hush and only pass on or leak info when it needs to be leaked. A lot of grey area in there, but that's kind of the point with a spy-based agency.
I'm not saying that any of this is right or justified, or the opposite of that, but I'm damn sure this isn't a brand new behavior.
The CIA started out in the shadows, grew too big and had too many people know about it, and then it got an official public face and more and more accountability (that's my take on it at least). Ditto for the NSA. I know they've been around for quite a while, but they were much more of a secret TLA op decades ago. I'd be quite surprised if there wasn't some subsection of the NSA or DHS etc with a hidden budget that will eventually get some new TLA in decades to come. We need a group that doesn't have to deal with all the bureaucracy (or nothing would ever get done), but they shouldn't actually act on any of it, and they should stick to the shadows. The fact that the NSA is leaking more and more means they're too far out of that position - time to impose the rules cause they grew too big.
Your analogy is flawed.
Recruiters are like marketing folk. They try to sell their company in a competitive market and have to be prepared for any reaction. Some will be positive, some negative and some simply won't care. Since recruiters are selling, their job is to overcome the negative and uncaring as much as possible.
Sales clerks are not marketers and do not have the broad mandate of a recruiter. Most sales clerks have little status or power in their organization. Even so, they contact the general public and are therefore subject to every customer behaviour imaginable. I suppose some do, in fact, get harassed about the origin of their merchandise.
Normally do not comment on or make fun of grammar mistakes but "Escape Goats"?? LOL. Thanks, you made my afternoon.
Laugh if you must, but the original "scapegoat" really did escape (although the word has no lineage to the word escape). There were two goats involved, and the scapegoat definitely got the better end of the deal.
...
From Leviticus 16:
7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 8 He is to cast lots for the two goats—one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat.[b] 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.
21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Given recent events, the NSA absolutely had to know this was coming. It doesn't take a massive datacenter combing through the personal lives of every US citizen to realize that the populace is a bit upset with their actions. It also doesn't take a SPECTRE meeting to figure out that college students are among the most vocal subset, especially in the category of personal liberties.
Given the obvious outcome of sending NSA recruiters to a college campus, and the complete unpreparedness of the recruiters for that obvious outcome, I can only conclude that the whole thing is a stunt to paint the NSA as somewhat ineffective in the public eye, so that they can fade back into obscurity and continue their illegal monitoring. (do I win "run on sentence of the week?"). Really, the only part of this I would still question, is whether or not the recruiters were in on the ruse, or unwittingly hung out as public sacrifice.
This signature is false.
You come on. They had to face pointed questions. Boo fucking hoo. If my employer, a hospital, started executing patients they had sworn to heal, I'd expect some questions even though I do research, and the only time I see patients is when they're walking into the building across the street. The NSA is supposed to exist to defend us and our rights, and did the exact opposite. They can fucking deal with the fallout or they can quit. Their bosses and directing politicians caused the problem, not the people who are trying to get answers.
No, their job is signals intelligence. They are not attacking you and your rights.
Intercepting communications, that's their job. Your emails and social network data were never protected by the 4th amendment, period. Ask Google who owns your email. (hint: it's not you)
Encryption advocates have been trying to convince you all for decades, and now all of a sudden you want retroactive privacy protection for shit you put on the Internet.
I have no compassion for the kind of geek here on /. that wants to rant about the gubmint stealing their "freedoms" when you WILLFULLY ignored the issue of data custody and ownership all this time. You are idiots.
Instead, we're eating at McDonalds!
Cuz, it's cheap!
So we have government agency working to prevent surprise attacks by enemy nations
Enemy nations? Since when? Looks to me like 99% of their work is to turn our own country into an Orwellian dystopia while also allowing our allies along for the ride. I'm guessing they consider actual enemies too boring. Besides monitoring them requires some foreign language ability. So much easier to spy on English speakers.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Statistically, the majority are very rarely insightful or right.
The trend-setting few, both extrovert and introvert personalities, are "right".
When the majority supports a new trend, what is "truly right" changes right then and there in order to support a new level of paradigm, because even though the majority supports "a good cause", they are never really insightful and end up perverting and hurting the very cause they want to identify with.
You think the NSA employees don't believe in something bigger than themselves?
You mean like the CIA? They aren't protecting America. They are destroying America. They are traitors.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
What proof do we have secret services are not doing the same thing? We know they already use political surveillance and infiltration to meet their deadlines.
Taking the next step: sabotage, manipulation and subversion, just seems logical, and is with decades on their back and cover in the dark, probably old-hat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrOZllbNarw
I believe Matt Damon, as Will Hunting, said it best!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrOZllbNarw
I believe Matt Damon, as Will Hunting, said it best!
Qualifications:
- Being a great liar
- Doing what you're told
- Not questioning authority
- Strung on by new rushes of power
- Total lack of empathy and conscience, while retaining the ability to use such for personal gains
- Total disregard of consequences to others
These are great personalitytraits we look in our recruits.
With All The Love,
The NSA
Captcha: ideally
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199710--.htm
"The universities, for example, are not independent institutions. There may be independent people scattered around in them but that is true of the media as well. And it's generally true of corporations. It's true of Fascist states, for that matter. But the institution itself is parasitic. It's dependent on outside sources of support and those sources of support, such as private wealth, big corporations with grants, and the government (which is so closely interlinked with corporate power you can barely distinguish them), they are essentially what the universities are in the middle of. People within them, who don't adjust to that structure, who don't accept it and internalize it (you can't really work with it unless you internalize it, and believe it); people who don't do that are likely to be weeded out along the way, starting from kindergarten, all the way up. There are all sorts of filtering devices to get rid of people who are a pain in the neck and think independently. Those of you who have been through college know that the educational system is very highly geared to rewarding conformity and obedience; if you don't do that, you are a troublemaker. So, it is kind of a filtering device which ends up with people who really honestly (they aren't lying) internalize the framework of belief and attitudes of the surrounding power system in the society. The elite institutions like, say, Harvard and Princeton and the small upscale colleges, for example, are very much geared to socialization. If you go through a place like Harvard, most of what goes on there is teaching manners; how to behave like a member of the upper classes, how to think the right thoughts, and so on."
See also: http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/
"The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professionalâ(TM)s lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy."
And in recent history in relation to the run up to the Iraq war: http://fair.org/press-release/some-critical-media-voices-face-censorship/
How could it be different? Seriously, as a question, can people suggest alternatives? I've suggested some things elsewhere in terms of rethinking security and in my sig. How can things be different while still preserving current security?
The argument that this surveillance apparatus may fall into the hands of "bad people" is still (mostly) an argument about the future, so it has less weight if people can't see how to feel reasonably secure now. I'd like to see a lot more playing around with ideas about potential alternatives to keep the USA secure and healthy in the face of the fact that technology allows individuals and small groups to do ever more damage to the whole.... From a 2007 slashdot post by an AC:
http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=261555&cid=20127487
"Ben Bova, a major science fiction writer, has a proposed answer to the Fermi Paradox that startw with one of the side-effects of general technological advancement: The average person (of any intelligent species) acquires more and more power to do things. Well, on Earth it is well known that not all persons are emotionally stable, even as adults. Why should an assumption of stability be made for other worlds? Remember that if there is a technological cure for insanity, it is beyond our current technology, and it is
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Yes it does.
"His name was James Damore."
Fuck you. just cause jobs are harder to get at the moment people should sell their souls and spy on their neighbors for the government.
We are a nation of laws
Used to be. What use are those laws when the NSA simply breaks them? What use is congressional oversight when the NSA simply lies to them?
Name a law and tell us how the NSA broke it.
kthxbai
You seriously are concerned about your slashdot karma? Really?
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Your right the nsa is much worse. The nsa doesn't only do it to people (intimidation and lynching) they do it to countries.
Not trolling. I've worked in "controversial" workplaces before and I empathize. I've gone door to door and been yelled at, called an idiot before. Another job we just had to "hide" where we worked for fear of political wingnuts attacking us simply for working there. (Mind you, all I did was create content for a website as an intern...definitely not hurting anyone and definitely the lowest employee there.)
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
Yes that is exactly would you should do. If they want to sell me questionable wares they are better able to make their sale pitch.
Also, it is called taking responsibility.
There are plenty of ways that you can play with big computers and algorithms, and not be spying on your neighbor at the same time.
I'm sure there's a lot of great people in the NSA
Apparently, not in NSA, not anymore. A few, may be. Like T. Drake. But not a lot.
Posting AC after mod. I would have upmodded, because the value of his first two sentences far outweighed the flame bait index of the last two. Gotta pan the gravel for the gold.
I meant the NSA... Seeing as that you stand so tall for them...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I didn't go to college cause I couldn't afford to. I bet you don't know anyone who voted for Nixon either.
Dad, is that you?
Be seeing you...
Ahh to be young again, and have a strict moral code. Yes I am a sellout but I am glad I did. ... I can justify many of the moral imbiguities of saying it is helping more people than they are hurting.
...
Weird. I'm in my 40's and I kept my morals. No, I'm not rich, but then that's not what life is about to me. You know, I can justify anything by making up shit that sounds good, but isn't true.
Be seeing you...
Secret laws? What secret laws? Oh, that's right, you can't tell me about them because they're secret. Have these secret laws been revealed to you?
Posting AC after mod. I would have upmodded, because the value of his first two sentences far outweighed the flame bait index of the last two. Gotta pan the gravel for the gold.
That's not how I mod. If you direct a personal attack at someone anywhere in the message, your message isn't worthy of being promoted.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
Unfortunately, you are unable to distinguish the difference between law (which the congress is responsible for creating) and a request to the judicial; branch seeking insight into certain decisions.
The law remains public.
She probably is a US citizen, and even if not, she would have something to contribute if she became one. Strangely enough, the US consists of people whose heritage is from all over the world. It's one of the strengths of the country that it can draw on that cultural heritage and diversity within its own citizens to better understand languages and other cultural matters when in pursuit of intelligence in other countries.
That's the way it's supposed to be, yes. Unfortunately our politicians long ago discovered that divide-and-conquer can easily be implemented by pitting various groups against each other while promising to protect each from the others. This is why the USA has a collective unhealthy obsession with group identity. It's always black vs. white, rich vs. poor, Muslim vs. Christian, homosexual vs. heterosexual, etc. etc. Individuality is given only lip service by comparison.
This malignant design has been sadly successful. It has one primary goal and one secondary goal. The secondary goal is to herd voters into blocs that can be reliabily depended upon to maintain the ridiculously high incumbency rate. The primary goal is to conceal the one true division: the ruling class vs. everyone else.
A country with a more homogeneous population has a big problem trying to understand the rest of the world.
We manage to have that problem despite our genetic diversity because we have so precious little diversity of philosophy and viewpoint. The decline of federalism and the establishment of a very powerful central government sealed the deal. Now we have lots of people who look different but think in the same way. Cosmetically that's great. In every other way it's more of the same old status quo.
Your bigoted attitude will discourage people from getting involved, and ultimately undermines the security of the country.
You'll find that average Americans tend to be much more provincial than, say, the average European. Mainstream Americans usually speak only one language and don't visit foreign countries nearly as often as mainstream Europeans.
You know what REALLY discourages people from getting involved? The inability of most people to hire lots of lawyers and lobbyists which, when the media so grossly fails to do its job, is the only way things actually get done in Washington.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Terrorism seeks to change behavior based on fear of imminent danger. You can't get any more personal than that. And that's why it is directly at odds with a civilized democracy.
All you discuss is a method for obscuring the truth. In the majority of cases, that means: obscuring corruption, obscuring a loss of integrity, and the willing destruction of meaningful human communication. Relativistic notions of truth are hardly useful here.
"They weren't spying on Americans, they were spying on Phones".
Absurd. About as sensible as me saying right now that I'm not communicating with people, I'm communicating with computers. These are just foolish semantic games that will, long-term, only do us harm.
"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Making yourself clearly understood is far more impressive than the reverse.
That should be printed unto a t-shirt !
The CIA guy that had the military pulled out of the area so he could get the glory of catching Bin Laden with the help of some locals that ended up sending a warning could be painted that way - but instead I'd say they are just run by a pile of useless horse judges that just happen to have the right friends. I see them as toy soldiers that are always looking for somebody to fight instead of the real soldiers that are always looking to improve to do their best in a real fight that matters.
Clapper deliberately evaded. This is lying even if no one has the balls to call it that.
Understand. Customs differ.
We don't live in a republic we live in a democracy. Been that way a long time considering it was pretty well wrapped up with the passage of the 17th Amendment.
I live about a mile from where this happened. And while, yes, there are a lot of annoying hippies around here... there are plenty of annoying rednecks as well. The UW's chock full of them. I doubt any of them like the NSA either.
The USA got rid of that old fashioned Magna Carta stuff. Nixon, North, Poindexter, Scooter Libby and a pile of others were declared to be above the law, then there's the ones that never went to trial.
Lobbying? Now it's a euphemism for buying hookers and blow for a member of Congress if you want some free Stinger missiles.
Where does this rumor come from? I've watched the movie and they blast the shit out of the rebels in the opening scene. The only time they seem to miss is when they were herding Han Leia Luke and Chewbaka back to their ship so they could track it to the rebel base, wouldn't have been a good plan to get a tracking device on the ship then kill everyone before they get back. "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise." -Obi Wan Kenobi
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
no, that's the CIA. why would we need two organizations to conduct foreign spying?
I can imagine the interview process: ``Answer as truthfully as possible: Are you a good lier?''
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy
So what you are saying, is that we are a nation of men. What else can you mean when the only way to get criminals out of office is to lobby them. Forget impeachment and that PMITA federal prison system they made into the biggest in the world, let's see if we can get them to quit committing crimes by buying them caviar and giving them really fat checks for their next campaign. Somehow -- I think that does not incentivize good behavior, but rather the opposite.
And what about those assholes in the revolving door plan -- contractor, to official, to contractor, to official -- like Clapper? Should we send them xmas cards in the hopes that he and his ilk won't commit perjury?
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
The recruiters were there to offer jobs to people, not to answer for every controversy involving the agency. It isn't their job, and it isn't especially reasonable. Do you harass sales clerks about sweat shop labor used to manufacture some particular good in their store? This isn't much different.
No, but I sure as hell ask a recruiter or better yet a manager about things like their offshoring policy during an interview. They can either tell the truth or say
"I dont know". If I don't hear the answer I like, I let them know why I am turning down their offer.
That being said, "I dont know" had better be followed up by "But I will find out and let you know right away." A few have decided it was not worth it to call me back as they knew what my response would be.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I like that. Should be over the entrance gate to headquarters
"We don't make totalitarian regimes, we just make them possible."
Good point - COINTELPRO was the FBI's job, but maybe the NSA is doing it these days. Not in the same league as the Stasi but still the same sort of thing.
The US didn't sign up to the war crimes agreement so international law doesn't apply.
Snowden for President. Can't be any worse then the last two douchbags.
" So when is James Clapper going to be charged with contempt of congress for telling them that the NSA isn't spying on millions of Americans?"
When the President claps his hands and turns him back on?
If you want terrorism to stop, then just don't participate in it.
The same exact thing applies to NSA and all other government terrorist organisations.
The NSA seems like a horrible place to work. The amount of scrutiny and surveillance you'd have to go through just to get the job so that you can then put that scrutiny and surveillance on the world? What is the point?
Oh yeah, the economy sucks and people are desperate for money.
One truly astonishing thing is the White House complained to the Irish embassy about that interview. It's as if somebody dared to insult a King and it really confirms the stupid feudal mindset that is supposed to be the opposite of everything the USA stands for.
He really did want to get treated like Royalty.
Gary the Stormtrooper
Such Manichean, childish thinking. An organization is either all good or all bad.
To believe that the NSA has done and is not doing valuable things for the U.S. is sloppy thinking.
The good news here is that liberal university graduates will avoid the agency, so more rational Southern and Midwestern graduates will fill the agency.
Unintended effects? Stay tuned.
The whole concept of "Defending Freedom" is preventing bad people from using powerful tools.
Not much good arrives when bad people have the tactical advantage over the humane people because several loud, stupid people are afraid of bad people.
Stop giving politicians so much money. Fix the education system. Discourage the rampant drug use. Investigate some level of practical Governing Feedback Loops.
Don't bitch out, pussy.
So we have government agency working to prevent surprise attacks by enemy nations and terrorism against the US
Is that all that they are supposed to be doing? Nothing more than that? How do we know since if there is any effective oversight, it is by some secret agency that is not itself accountable under USA Constitution or law?
And then there are all the things that the NSA might be doing that are outside of its mandate. If it allows some low functionary like Snowden to walk out and give away all the information he was able to obtain, what is to stop someone with baser motives from collecting information that a corporation or foreign government would pay him for?
Even if the NSA could somehow function legally, it is so ripe for corruption that it should be shut down. And the perpetrators of this massive crime should be investigated.
Will
Remember when we all laughed at "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." - Bill Clinton? Funny huh?
He was making a funny at the judge, but nobody got it. The judge defined "sex" for him, then asked if he had "sex". Based on the definition he was required by law to use, he said "no." But the judge defined "sex" poorly. That's not Bill Clinton's fault.
But he was impeached for understanding and answering the question asked in the most correct manner possible, with no ambiguity or dodging whatsoever. Apparently, that's "perjury" in the US.
Learn to love Alaska
Lobbying does not do any good when dealing with a rogue government organization. It only works on those parts of the US government that work the way the US Constitution says they should.
Will
Who was "stripped of their citizenship"? I heard they canceled Snowden's passport and issued a travel letter to the US, so unless some other country speaks for him, he can no longer travel internationally. But he's a US citizen, and there's not much the US can do about it, especially since the US signed a document stating it would not create stateless persons. Though, after shitting on the Constitution for so long, why not start on the inconvenient treaties. That's why you should collect citizenships. We have two each in my family, and will likely try for a third in a few years. Any one government that is a dick (the US being top of the list, why I moved out), and I can travel on other documents, and with multiple sets of documents, I can go where I want and keep others from knowing, always go in and out of Israel on US passport, and Muslim countries on Australia passport. So nobody on entry should see or care where else I've been. At least now, tourism to Cuba is open. I'd go if I lived back in the US on the Gulf of Mexico, as I once did.
Learn to love Alaska
The recruiters were there to offer jobs to people, not to answer for every controversy involving the agency.
So.. What you are saying is that they were offering jobs but refused to say what the job was.
They got away easy.
You seriously are concerned about your slashdot karma? Really?
So, which word do you need help with?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Good post. You reminded me of a Franz Kafka story: http://records.viu.ca/~Johnstoi/kafka/beforethelaw.htm
So by that logic, the US Military should have blasted the doors off the NSA buildings and had massive raids and arrests. Shame we're talking about the USA here, because both you and I know, that would never happen.
They would also ask, how much of a liar do you need to be to be a female "journalist" like this one claims to be, and yet whitewash Islamists with horrible human rights and especially anti-women abuses?
They kill more women in honor killings a year than all the drone strikes combined. They rape more women every year than every injury among the innocent from the drone strikes. Yet, the evil n her eyes are the drones and not the Islamists.
They probably consider all states outside the US to be either known enemies or as yet unproven enemies. This means they do as much as they can handle 'just in case'.
Your are not paid to THINK ....
...till the black helicopters are above her house and black vans are at her driveway. Then it won't be as funny.
When the Chinese government issues secret warrants, it is PROOF to Fox News that communism is bad
When the Iraqi government issued secret warrants, it was PROOF to Fox News that Hussein was an evil dictator
When the US government issues secret warrants, it is PROOF to Fox News that the Republicans are fighting terrorism.
Why is this upvoted? That's seriously offensive.
Oh, poor baby! My apologies - I didn't realise you had the right to not be offended.
They're not soldiers, genocide is no where insight, your vague analogy is invalid.
Terrified of being proven wrong, ThorGod reaches for his most devastating weapon of debate:
Nanananananana, I can't hear you, nananananananana.
As an aside, I recall the Stasi were particularly effective because their regime of terror resulted in a lot of citizens working as their eyes and ears.
No doubt these citizens jumped to defend every aspect of the agency when even a small part was criticised. Are you capable of seeing past their stated reasons to the truth behind the behaviour, Cold Fjord?
What is the real reason you are putting yourself on the line to defend the actions of the NSA, Cold Fjord?
... once they find out the internet is just a passing fad and all their snooping efforts are for nothing!
It does if someone who signed it wins a war against them. The losers get charged with whatever the winners want.
Theoretically, even Kings are not above the law in the anglo-saxon tradition.
Generally, they are. A contemporary case in point is Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden, who is very fond of speeding ridiculously in racing cars on public roads, but does not risk prosecution.
Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors!
...instead of asking the hospital leadership everybody came to you for answers.
If by "everybody" you actually mean "two students" then I'm sure interkin3tic would answer whatever questions he could and direct the questioners to the appropriate staff if he could not. The fact that there is (as far as i know) no appropriate staff at the NSA for people to be directed too speaks volumes about their culture.
Can a person program a new solution to a problem? Why should anyone be able to stop such a thing? -Richard Stallman
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
The obvious expectation is that the NSA will retreat further into the background until there work is taken over by an even more secretive organisation. Conspiracy theorists will of course already know the names and helicopter colours of several layers of these.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Yes we did, not just once but twice. I think there is a few more places we should invade.
You do realize the organization in this case, is the U.S. government (after all, this sort of thing goes beyond just the NSA).
Assuming you live in the U.S, you are going to be paying some form of taxes, one way or another to it (such as sales taxes when you buy something from a store, taxes on earnings etc).
Seeing that you have such a moral aptitude on stealing, one can assume you wouldn't steal from other tax payers. On the other hand, you would be "furthering the agenda of a quite clearly malicious organization" if you did.
Is this an admission of tax evasion and hurting the tax payer or an admission that you can't justify "furthering the agenda of a quite clearly malicious organization", but you're doing it anyway, making you a hypocrite?
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
He didn't collect data on Americans. He collected data on phones and phone numbers, email and email addresses. And while this can be construed as to being the same thing, it is not, at least technically.
Do I believe it to be a lie? Of course it was a deliberate misleading of congress, that makes it a lie in my book. However, from a "legal" point of view, it is not a lie to deliberately mislead while being technically accurate.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
I'm not crazy. I 'm not /joker_voice
All of what you said may be true, but that does not collecting data on Americans, if there is no association made between a phone call and a person. Or an email and a person. They made no such connection per se.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Parsing the definition.
Judge should have said, sex = sexual conduct = contact with sexual organs(defining all relevant parts) for the purposes of either procreation and/or pleasure.
And you proved my point.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
And you proved my point.
Your point was that the answerers twist their words to give the opposite impression while not telling a false statement. Now is "no" when "no" was the only truthful answer to the question asked, twisting words? I don't think I proved your point. Plenty lie. Bush under the "Mission Accomplished" sign paid for by the White House later denying that it was a publicity stunt orchestrated by the White House. That's your lies and twisting. And Bill skirted the line plenty of times answering for land deals and such, but what he was impeached for was one of the few unimpeachable statements he made. And the witch hunt failed. But not by the margin it should have.
Learn to love Alaska
I wonder if the SERE instructors who waterboarded this veteran were prosecuted?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/mg_moore/waterboarding-101-inside_b_190318_23421768.html
I find very little credibility in what you're saying, and a lot in what this guy says:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/ProudAmerican23/waterboarding-101-inside_b_190318_23413168.html