DEF CON Advises Feds Not To Attend Conference

tsu doh nimh writes "One of the more time-honored traditions at DEF CON — the massive hacker convention held each year in Las Vegas — is 'Spot-the-Fed,' a playful and mostly harmless contest to out undercover government agents that attend the show each year. But that game might be a bit tougher when the conference rolls around again next month: In an apparent reaction to recent revelations about far-reaching U.S. government surveillance programs, DEF CON organizers are asking feds to just stay away: 'I think it would be best for everyone involved if the feds call a "time-out" and not attend DEF CON this year,' conference organizer Jeff Moss wrote in a short post at Defcon.org. Krebsonsecurity writes that after many years of mutual distrust, the hacker community and the feds buried a lot of their differences in the wake of 911, with the director of NSA even delivering the keynote at last year's conference. But this year? Spot the fed may just turn into hack-the-fed."

Comments

Uncomfortable Relationship

[techsoldaten]

I have never really been comfortable with having the Feds in there in the first place. Anyone in government can potentially serve in a prosecutorial role, and the government has demonstrated over the years they are perfectly willing to demonize hackers if it serves a need. Thinking about Mitnick, Gonzales, and a bunch of other guys who got railroaded here, along with 2600 meetings where we would get interrogated just for showing up to have coffee.

It's a little like inviting the fox into the henhouse to have these guys around. Pretending that they care about the hacker community is a little hard for me to do.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[FriendlyLurker]

Pretending that they care about the community is a little hard for me to do.

Fixed that for you.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

Teaching the Feds about the difference in hacking and cracking, blackhat, greyhat and whitehat, seems to me not to be such a bad idea.
Problem with the Feds are they are puppets, and will do anything they're told to do to pocket their salaries.
Too often in such situations, knowledge of right and wrong goes out the window.

The problem with public knowledge and hardened security is that it's against grand interestrates for the 0.01%.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

the government has demonstrated over the years they are perfectly willing to demonize hackers if it serves a need.

Not news. Any government is perfectly willing to demonize and sacrifice anyone in society if it serves any need they perceive.

This has always been true. Modern governments are just a little less willing to murder and the most aggressive ways of sacrificing people only because the principle of the value of life and freedom are in some way partly included in their perceived needs.

but if a stronger need arises they will not stop even on the most aggressive abuses.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure the blackhats don't need any of the terms explained to them.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not invited, they go every year anyway. Even though it's a private convention and their actions would be illegal if it were a member of the public doing it.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[TWiTfan]

You can't teach a pig to bark. Well, maybe a really exceptional pig.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[mrsquid0]

Not news. Anyone is perfectly willing to demonize and sacrifice anyone in society if it serves any need they perceive.

Fixed that for you.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Steve_Ussler]

Good point...

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Steve_Ussler]

You have to realize that the 'feds' have good people. If you add up all the extremely smart hackers at the CIA, NSA, FBI, etc., who all work in secret...there are at least 5,000 of them. A formidable team.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Cryacin]

Pretending like they care about their sponsors in the community is easy to do, however.

FTFY

Re: Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not illegal, it's open to the public, they were not asked to leave.

You can't just define an arbitrary access list in your head and call something private. It is or isn't.
Like opening your back yard gate for a party, anyone can crash it, cops or neighbors, strangers etc., until you ask them to leave.

This explains all the confusion regarding email surveillance I guess... " but but I only gave google permission to read my mail"
Yah... They never needed your permission, they were just telling you. You don't have legal recourse if they accidentally share your account with a 3rd part, or intentionally allow it.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

And it is growing. The idea is to know and maybe prevent what China and others are doing, who has at least 50K.

Of course, they will not prevent any of the 5 eyes or other western nations from doing this. BUT, we WILL be aware of it.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

You also have to realize that it only takes once bad apple to spoil the bunch. It is not good enough for there to be mostly good people in the government, it is also required that these good people actively fight bad people in the government. Their lack of action to stop the bad people from doing bad things is problematic.

Quote: All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[CohibaVancouver]

How is it a 'private convention?' I've never been, but isn't it the case that I can walk up, plunk down my cash at the door, and walk in? That makes it about as 'private' as the next Star Wars movie.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[tqk]

Anyone is perfectly willing to demonize and sacrifice anyone in society if it serves any need they perceive.

You've just described a predator. No, we're not all predators, and in fact most of us advance civilization as the best form of defence from predatory conduct, preferring a "live and let live" course.

However, it's good to know where you stand. Now we can watch out for you.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't it the case that I can walk up, plunk down my cash at the door, and walk in? That makes it about as 'private' as the next Star Wars movie.

Exactly. Not nearly as public as Boston Commons or a 4th of July parade. As such, the organizers are free to deny access to government employees if they so desire.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[davydagger]

the problem with the feds is really thinking they care.

as with most sub-cultures, counter-cultures, its not that they misunderstand you, its they PURPOSEFULLY misrepresent you to the public. They just play stupid to get you do to all the work of informing them on how your sub culture works, which they use to exploit it.

If they can't exploit it, they just arrest everyone. If they do a good job of pre-trial slander, all they really have to do is prove you belong to a group of undesirables, and they really don't have to prove anything else.

For years they knew they didn't know enough about computers, but they figured, they could stigmatize enough computer users, until they volunteered their information in exchange for an image whitewash. They also knew the general public was ignorant and already distrustful of computers.(See evil robot movies, about how they are going to take jobs), and very little appreciation for the nerds who seemed to talk a diffrent language and didn't socialize properly with them.

To be honest back then, they kinda held the leverage.

Today, now that EVERYTHING is dependant on computers, and the TV is promoting "nerd" as its latest materialistic image of choice, I think its time for a good re-negotation of terms. WE hold leverage now.

Re: Uncomfortable Relationship

[rot26]

You can't just define an arbitrary access list in your head and call something private. It is or isn't.

Wrong.

You can have public access but still limit that access in any way you want (unless you are some sort of entity which is required to conform to equal opportunity laws.) Next time you go get your pork skins at walmart, take a look by the door, and you'll see a sign that says something like "no firearms allowed on premises". They can do that. If you're caught violating that private policy, you can be arrested for trespassing.

Same thing at disney world.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[davydagger]

who are these hackers, nerds like you, are home grown suits, drawn from the typical agent pool.

No, its people like us they recruit. Of those 5,000, I can guaruntee that at least 4,000 were the type that would attend DEFCON, BEFORE, they starting working for the feds. Their good people are us. All institutions and movements survive by recruiting. The Feds have good people because people like us decide to work for them. They really need to remember that.

No, WE really need to remember that. Then remember how we get treated by society, the press, the legal system, etc...

Then think how well they get treated.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[davydagger]

the smear campaign against hackers has been far more aggress, sinister, than just about anything else.

The press would rather talk to a bunch of pedophiles with blood on their dicks from freshly deflouring 8 year olds than give a shred of good press to the most noble and ethical of hackers

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Steve_Ussler]

very good point...thank you.

Re: Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

You can, of course, be arrested for anything at any time. However, you will not be convicted of trespassing in any of the three states I've lived in (nor, I suspect, elsewhere in the US, but I know the laws for those three) until somebody with appropriate authority tells you to leave or to stay out and you fail to comply. TOS-like signs don't cut it.

But of course the management can demand you leave (whether or not there's a sign) and failure to comply with that is technically trespassing. Note that, barring any special friendship between the local police and the local walmart, the police will almost always overlook the trespassing in this case, and merely escort you off the property without arresting you, but the possibility of legitimate arrest and conviction is there.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[TheGratefulNet]

Problem with the software and hardware engineers are they are puppets, and will do anything they're told to do to pocket their salaries.
Too often in such situations, knowledge of right and wrong goes out the window.

fixed that for you.

(yes, we are to blame for doing ANY damned thing as long as The Man pays our salaries. but I've already ranted about this before...)

yes, blame the feds for being amoral. but blame us, too, for we usually will whore ourselves out to a company as long as we get healthcare, weekly pay and free soda and chips at work.

we refuse to unionize because 'we are all so special'. we are selfish, as a community, and don't usually think farther than it affects our income. no difference from the feds.

people are people and they know who their daddy is and will do what it takes to please him.

for more info, see the definition of 'wage slave'. we and they are all slaves to the system (unless you are independantly wealthy, which is a tiny tiny percentage).

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

Not news. Anyone is perfectly willing to demonize and sacrifice anyone in society if it serves any need they perceive.

Fixed that for you.

You are transferring your own lack of moral
compass to the rest of us, and your above statement
is false.

Your statement is the most sickening thing I have
ever read on Slashdot. Get yourself some professional
help, you pathetic sociopathic fuckwit.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[RoknrolZombie]

No, but you can dress it up in a dog suit and still fool the masses.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

> Pretending that they care about the community is a little hard for me to do.

You must be new here :)

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

Ostensibly, we are the government. In truth, the Fed exists in this way either because we have let them become this way or democracy has failed.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[hairyfeet]

I'd say its more like inviting a legbreaker to a peace rally really,especially since they have been shown in the past to be happy to kill the messenger if anybody dares point out their security is shitty.

The weird thing is this seems to have happened all across the country with regard to LEOs, i know little old ladies that used to be as police friendly as can be that wouldn't piss on one if they were on fire now, its really become an "us VS them" mentality all over the place.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[hairyfeet]

Uhh yeah you can, it just sounds awful funny ;-) I know it can be done because i had a friend that raised a runt pig with a litter of puppies, damned thing thought it was a dog i swear. he'd call the dogs and here would come the pig, they would howl and it'd make this really funky sound in its throat trying to sound like them, and when they'd bark it'd make this funny grunt/squeal "bark" right along with them.

But in this case its not about "teaching" squat, its about the feds honestly not giving a fuck about anything but intimidating for their corporate masters anymore. You'd think they would be more concerned about fixing their lax crappy security but nope, its ALL about being as big a douchebag as they can be and making "examples" of as many as they can to try to get a nice chilling effect going. Honestly I'm shocked they are even willing to hold the DEFCON in the USA anymore, i know if I was an overseas presenter I'd avoid the USA like an STD.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[cellocgw]

I'm pretty sure the blackhats don't need any of the terms explained to them.

yeah, but we're discussing blacklisting the asshats.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy, that would be Some Pig.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a little like inviting the cops into the drug deal to have these guys around.

There fixed that for you.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[TWiTfan]

I would really hate eating him. But bacon is bacon.

Re: Uncomfortable Relationship

[Dereck1701]

"You can, of course, be arrested for anything at any time. However, you will not be convicted of"

Thats why being arrested in and of itself is being used as a form of punishment these days. If arrested you're held for the full period allowed by law (72 hours I believe in most areas, there are of course always attempts to extend this limit) and in most cases never charged. You have your fingerprints, image and now even your DNA taken as evidence to be used against you in the future. If you want proof you don't have to look far, during the OWS protests thousands were arrested, I doubt 15% of them were charged. In NYC even those cases where they did try to charge the protestors the cases were thrown out left and right, due to lack of any evidence, evidence (video) proving the charges were bogus, case after case where the arresting officer "couldn't"/wouldn't come to court and even a case where the police write up of the "criminal activity" wasn't a crime(the officer claimed that by dressing up like a pixie she was "impeding traffic").

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[crtreece]

I think part of the problem is the hierarchical federal bureaucracy, where a few predators up in the higher levels, use fear, uncertainty, and doubt to put those at the lower levels into a "OMG, we have to DO SOMETHING" mentality. The normally rational actors quickly fall into the herd mentality and carry out tasks of the predators. I love the sig that says, "a person can be smart, people are stupid", this is especially true when FUD is used to paint the picture of the unknown, be it muslim, computer hacker, pot smoker, etc.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[Anonymous Coward]

People have by and large stopped trusting the government, that is the issue here. The government has violated its trust in attempting to keep dissent at a minimum in a time where dissent and reform is largely needed to keep the peace and status quo.

DefCon is one of those places where the Cops can see the state-of-the-art technologies that both criminals and admins use and allows them to stay up to date, in a normally functioning society people will help and assist the police because the police are not actively looking to increase the number of convictions arbitrarily.

As with any convention from a Rave to Defcon, you need some cops there to settle disputes and keep !@$!@#!@#holes from doing stupid crap (spiking drinks, stealing credit card numbers, et-cetra).

Re: Uncomfortable Relationship

[rot26]

My only knowledge of this subject came from a 45 minute long class I had to take before getting my concealed carry permit. It was a pretty casual overview of Florida law.

Here's the actual relevant Flarda law, and it appears to my non-lawyer eyes that having a posted sign is sufficient grounds for having someone arrested. Your state is likely different, but we are pretty liberal here with regard to guns, so if your state is different, it's probably MORE stringent, not less.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.09.html

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[cbhacking]

There are rules on attendance (for example, no undercover reporters; media folks have special badges that immediately and visibly identify them, and the last one to be caught trying to pass got thoroughly humiliated and then kicked out and banned). They don't collect logs of who attends (you can't pay by credit card, because that leaves an auditable trail, for example) but they do exert some control over admission.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[ae1294]

I think DEF CON should invite some Chinese government types to give talks about jobs in chinia... not because I want them to get any help from DEF CON but because I want to see the eye's and ear's of the FEDs to bleed when they realize what they they have done. They have pissed off the lurking stench in the darkness. That which lives in darkness craves hot-pockets.... O and sell scary magical computer knowledge to the enemy. Their magic can make doors lock and computers explode with the force of a brick of c4! They should have a musilum out reach booth as well... Just everything to freak out the boys upstairs...

Also DEF CON needs to have a TSA check points where normal clean cut people who don't know what cpu means gets asked to 'step over here' by security and are degraded as far as legally allowed. Then they need to be refunded their ticket or whatever and asked to leave private property. After their photo's are uploaded into the new "Known Federal Employee Database"...

Also Federal Wireless frequencies should randomly drop in and out and all cell calls should get routed and recorded for later lol review by DefF con Cell Sites.... Plus all internet wi-fi should have fake certs and install bit-coin mining software as we need a farm at Langley to pay for the defense of good hackers...

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[hairyfeet]

You ever work with law enforcement? Dude its fucking SCARY how little many of them know how this shit works, just because they have a badge doesn't make 'em immune to what i call the "NCIS delusion" where they think you can magically do that CSI shit without risking anything. Hell I once had a state crime lab guy ask me for a program to find and sift files from a Win95 box as all they had were automated tools designed for NTFS and without the tools? Lost.

I have had them tell me they would "cover for me" if I would hack into a state owned PC, had them expect me to be able to push a button and instantly give them a street address, there is a REASON why they automatically go overboard when you talk PC, its because most of them frankly don't know any more than the civvies and fear you can do the shit like on that dumbass movie and "hack the Gibson" and shut off the world, considering how the alien dialup guy was getting into the DoD? i don't think you'd have to hack the Gibson, more like hack the Atari..LOL.

Re:Uncomfortable Relationship

[doccus]

Aw c'mon.. blaming the Feds for the whole data collection deal, is like blaming a crackhead for grabbing a huge rock off the table when it's right in front of him.. The people responsible are the ones who make the rules. Spies and agents are gonna be spies and agents to the best of therir ability and will listen to every possible wiretap, collect every bit of personal info, and basically violate every constitutional right in existence to get their info. That's their job. Unless someone in government sets limits, like they're supposed to. That's THEIR job. That's why it was possible for a Fed to deliver that keynote address, just like cops go to funerals right alongsides Mafia families, or outlaw bikers, and grieve for the lost, right alongside them. And then try to bust them the next day... So, the hackers, and the feds, lose this uneasy truce they had between them.. but the truly guilty parties, in positions of power, get off scott free... Nice..

Wrong way to go about it?

[kennethmci]

I imagine after being asked NOT to attend, they will be FAR more interested in attending.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[ciderbrew]

I don't think being asked not to attend will stop them.
This time they should know are not welcome and more importantly why.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[jythie]

I am kinda curious if they can enforce it in a legal way. 'hack the fed' would be one thing, but it would be terribly amusing to see security escorting federal agents out of the building. It is a private convention and they are free to prohibit anyone they like.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[KiloByte]

But how do you make sure that guy is indeed an undercover federal agent? You can be 99% sure, but, baring gross incompetence, you can't prove it.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Sockatume]

Obvious joke: gross incompetence and Federal agents, those things don't overlap often.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Mister Transistor]

Apparently, you only need to be 51% sure. ;)

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

They only need to be 51% sure about it. If it's a good enough margin for the NSA to determine if someone is a citizen or a foreigner, then should be good enough for the DEF CON organizers, right? ;)

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

but it would be terribly amusing to see security escorting federal agents out of the building

Terribly amusing in the fact that the federal agents would probably be the one making arrests and escorting the security out of the building.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you need to? If they are free to prohibit anyone they like a mere suspicion of federal agent could be enough.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[10101001 10101001]

Engage in massive, illegal surveillance then hold a secret court to decide their "guilty".

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't need to prove it - it's like with with witches and terrorists, "i call thee a fed", done, you're out.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[mysidia]

It is a private convention and they are free to prohibit anyone they like.

They may be able to get their secret court to issue a warrant to have officers present, or to eavesdrop on the convention.

They just have to have one person suspected of a crime -- or persuade a judge of reasonable suspicion that illegal activities may be planned at this convention.

You can ban people by name, but there's no legal mechanism that allows you to select "No law enforcement activity on the premises"

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[ArsenneLupin]

Terribly amusing in the fact that the federal agents would probably be the one making arrests and escorting the security out of the building.

... thereby settling the difficult question "how to prove a fed"...

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

thereby settling the difficult question "how to prove a fed"...

but how would the security themselves know that they were feds to begin with, the arrests by the federal agents just proves to the skeptics within the hacking group that feds are present.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that's the point. What fun would hack the fed be without feds?

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[somersault]

How do you know that security aren't also the feds? :p

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[GameboyRMH]

Followed by a drone strike at his family barbecue.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

With a margin of error of +-50%

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you know that security aren't also the feds? :p

That's an easy one, if the security teams are arrested then you can draw your own conclusions.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Arancaytar]

[ackbar]

IT'S A TRAP

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[dynamo]

No. We are better than the NSA (low standard to rise to, but still). I know that was a joke but.. it's possible that non-feds might be caught up in this and it would really suck to be kicked out of defcon on the slightest suspicion. There needs to be some kind of test - something a fed would never do but a regular attendee would be glad to.. there are options.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a private convention and they are free to prohibit anyone they like.

Given the context of the convention, it is not far-fetched that if they attempted that, court orders would be put in place with varying degrees of 'reason', as to why the Feds would be allowed in. In short, they would be able to walk right through the doors with nobody stopping them. I think you're forgetting the lengths to which the Government, DOJ, and its various 3-letter houses will go to, to go and get what they want.

It really is naive to think a private convention, especially one like DEF CON, would be capable of keeping the Feds out of the building. It wouldn't happen, and in all likelihood, if it was tried, would escalate rapidly and get very very ugly.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[meta-monkey]

"Jackbootedthugsayswhat?"

Or just ask everyone at the door to recite the fourth amendment. If you know what it says, you get in. If you don't...fed.

Re:Wrong way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

something a fed would never do

Like reading a newspaper?
They're legally prohibited from informing themselves.

Welcome to DEFCON, I love you.

[Anonymous Coward]

DEFCON Greeter: [Greeting every user] Welcome to DEFCON, I love you. Welcome to DEFCON, I love you. Welcome to DEFCON, I love you. Welcome to DEFCON, I love you.

DEFCON needs a PARTY VAN!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like in an Indiana Jones movie, where the entry way to a back door of a truck was obscured, and in another IJM where a plane door was open and the bad guy's name was hidden from view until it closed.

CALLING ALL PARTY VANS!

We need more of you at:

http://clsvtzwzdgzkjda7.onion/

For those civilians not attending (non-DEFCON related):

http://www.spyparty.com/

MIBs

[Anonymous Coward]

Never been to Def Con so have no idea how the feds look like, but I wonder if the federal agents attending Def Con wear black suits and stuff? :)
"GFTO fool! I ain't no fed! I just look good in black!" that's their typical excuse? :)

Re:MIBs

[Anonymous Coward]

Never been to Def Con so have no idea how the feds look like, but I wonder if the federal agents attending Def Con wear black suits and stuff? :)
"GFTO fool! I ain't no fed! I just look good in black!" that's their typical excuse? :)

One thing hackers and people for TLAs have in common: They know their abbreviations.
Based on your "GFTO", I guess you're neither.

Or so you want me to think. Nice try, Fed!

Re:MIBs

[Thanshin]

You can't use that to recognize the feds. All hackers wear black. And sunglasses the whole day long.

However, feds burn. And why do feds burn? ... Because they're made of wood.
How to know if one's made of wood? ... Because it floats.
And what also floats? ... A duck!
So, if the guy weights like a duck, he's a fed!

Re:MIBs

[C0R1D4N]

I am guessing they are generally physically fit with short cut hair.

Re:MIBs

[mysidia]

You can't use that to recognize the feds. All hackers wear black. And sunglasses the whole day long.

The resolution to this is; hack everyone. If they were a fed, you'll be able to figure that out by the contents of their e-mail account and their My Documents folder.

If they didn't turn out to be a fed, you just scribble a quick apology and leave it as a note on their desktop; after you phinish bragging.

Re:MIBs

[Anonymous Coward]

and pause like they're receiving instructions during your communication with them - especially when you ask them specific questions about themselves.

Re:MIBs

[Shoten]

The resolution to this is; hack everyone. If they were a fed, you'll be able to figure that out by the contents of their e-mail account and their My Documents folder.

If they even *have* a My Documents folder on a laptop at Defcon, you're most of the way to proving they're a fed...

Re:MIBs

[mjwalshe]

No you just look at what color cowboy hat they are wearing surly

Re:MIBs

[blueg3]

The Feds at DefCon and Black Hat mostly just wear jeans and t-shirts like everyone else. It's a little easier at Black Hat because many of them won't put their company name on their badge. DefCon doesn't have identification on badges.

Re:MIBs

[Anonymous Coward]

White.

Any other color is just gay.

On a related note, accept any pills this guy offers you. If you take the red AND the blue together, they become purple, and your acid reflux goes away.

Re:MIBs

[steelfood]

Does he also quack like a duck?

Re:MIBs

[Anonymous Coward]

in my experience that is surprisingly, hilariously accurate.
Also, find out if they carry a gun in their car and ask them what they think about gun laws and privacy.

Re:MIBs

[Anonymous Coward]

I fit that general description and do not work for a federal agency but once was told by a street tough in Chicago that I looked like an "Alphabet Boy". I asked what the hell that was and he said "You know, FBI, CIA, ABC".

yes! wrongway to go about it

[df-smokes]

I don't like this type of relationship.

Defcon is a freakshow

[DNS-and-BIND]

Defcon hasn't been about Defcon for a long time now. Since, what, Defcon 5 or 6? Ever since they moved out to that dumb Alexis hotel.

The REAL conference is Blackhat Briefings, which goes on during the week and is attended by serious people. Then, on the weekend, we bring the freaks out for your amusement and cap off Blackhat with Defcon. It's all about $$$$$ for Darktangent.

Re:Defcon is a freakshow

[Anonymous Coward]

hah I remember being at defcon in 2002 and some crew from Japan public radio or something started interviewing me, went something like this:

interviewer: Why did you come to DefCon?

me: I'm totally here to hang with my friends and party.

interviewer: You didn't come here to share information?

me: d00d, we do that every day, it's called the In-ter-net.

Re:Defcon is a freakshow

[L4t3r4lu5]

I like to picture you actually saying "d zero zero d" to prove you have mad skills.

Re:Defcon is a freakshow

[bdwebb]

Except for the fact that getting anything meaningful out of Blackhat requires $$$$$$$$. DEFCON is accessible by most people and you can still get a lot of good information. I don't see that DEFCON has been much different even from the original cons...still a bunch of booze, games, like-minded people, and if you want to get some decent information that is presented verbatim (as many of talks/Briefings are) at Blackhat you can do that, too.

You are right in that it is not as 'Con-ish' as most other large security style conferences but if you are looking for the straight-laced information approach, you probably have the money to go to the big'uns.

Re:Defcon is a freakshow

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because $1,800-$2,600 for admission is totally not all about the money. Everything that gets rolled at Blackhat then ends up at Defcon a few days later for a couple hundred bucks. Defcon is plenty about "Defcon" if you put forward the effort. Plus, Defcon is certainly a fuck of allot more fun. Maybe I'm biased since I have a black badge, but whatever...

And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Rather like the laws say what will happen if you do commit theft or whatever, the proposition here is that since you know that you're going to get hacked if you turn up, you can't complain it was unauthorised access and damaging: you should have thought of that before turning up.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because you "know" you'll get beaten when walking around in a Ku Klux robe in Queens, New York at night (which is perfectly legal afaict), this doesn't mean beating you up is allowed, and that it isn't a crime that should be prosecuted.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[spottedkangaroo]

huzzah! This is 100% true. Still, if someone phones in that there's a credible threat (bomb, beating, whatever) to the speaker, the protestors won't be allowed on campus.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[kennethmci]

does this law exist in America? i know we have it here in the UK - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_ethnic_or_racial_hatred

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the government we're talking about here, such disclaimers won't work against them, they either win in court or when they don't, they ignore the court anyway with complete impunity.

Did our ancestors really fight for this? I begin to wonder why they fought at all just so you can sit on your ass watching American Idol whilst having complete apathy to politics. The public deserve the government they get, in this case, the inaction of said people deserve to be ruled by a totalitarian government with an iron fist.

Re: And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

No. The First Amendment right to freedom of speech applies to hate speech, so long as it isn't treating.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States

Re:And what will happen if they do

[DarkOx]

You are right of course. There is however practical justice, legal justice, and moral justice. They don't all demand the same outcome for the situation you describe.

Personally I still feel that anyone working at NSA is a collaborator is tearing down our Constitutional freedoms. Until they leave their employment there they absolutely deserve to be shunned by the rest of society. Note I don't say attacked or harassed.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

This link, Hate Speech: United States, is two clicks from your link.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Charliemopps]

Note I don't say attacked or harassed.

Why not? They are attacking and harassing the rest of us as part of their job. If I run into someone working for the NSA they're getting an earful at the very least. They should be ashamed of themselves, their children will be ashamed of them, they are the secret police of our generation.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[dywolf]

Are they? Do you actually have any inside knowledge of the NSA and what they do, beyond what you read int eh papers and hear on /. ? Like any fed agency it's largely ordinary civil service just doing a day to day job to feed their family. Most of them are ordinary people no more deserving of your hate (and yes, it is bigoted hate, oriented around their job instead of race or creed) than anyone else. Most of them are probably doing harmless innocuous work, or actually tracing workable intelligence leads towards the bad guys. the few actually involved in "the bad stuff" we all hate are probably the same ordinary civil service workers who just "doing their job" and give no more thought to the moral rightness of what theyre doing than a Chevy worker does as he tightens the same nut 50k times a day as the line moves past.

Your unreasonably unlimited hate and vitriol only helps fuel the problem.
Beleive it or not the intelligence community does serve a useful purpose, and the scandal is only one facet of them.

Better to narrow your focus only towards the ones actually responsible, the ones in charge, politician and appointee alike, who decided they needed to violate our rights to "keep us safe". Hating them all is unreasonable and no different than any other unreasonable guilt-by-association based hatred through history.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Dins]

I think I've Spotted a Fed. Do I win something?

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Bucc5062]

Actually, you lose. What you spotted was a reasonable person with a brain.

Sometimes, in rare moments, these ordinary people do extra ordinary things (Mr. Snowden) to help shine a light on a corrupt system; corrupt from the top down, not so much the bottom up. Most times they come to work like most people, processing paper work, managing information, and trying to make it to the end of the day so they can enjoy life. As the GP said, save the vitriol for those that make policy or even better, if you don't like the current batch of policy makers, work to get rid of them in the next round of elections.

If that was your attempt at humor...try again.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[tgd]

Actually, you lose. What you spotted was a reasonable person with a brain.

Unfortunately, that's a rare breed around these parts ... if you're looking for a population of people who fit that billing, Slashdot is not the place to look, any more than among the support base of Fox News. The two are nearly identical -- "media" communities pushing a narrow minded, ignorant agenda on a narrow slice of the population that is seeking out justification for their beliefs, and feeding tripe to them like an addiction to drive ad revenue.

I suspect the person you replied to was just joking, but it says something about Slashdot that you just can't be sure anymore.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[oldredlion]

If you blow the whistle on them, you win a shit load of trouble for yourself.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with this to an extent, but "just following orders" generally doesn't cut it. Of course this case is more nuanced than genocide, but the principal is the same.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Vintermann]

Are they? Do you actually have any inside knowledge of the NSA and what they do

No of course not. That's the problem.

You could use the exact same defense for the Stasi. East Germans had no nice and official documentation about what they did, unless they worked for them. Were they therefore not entitled to have an opinion about it?

Most of them are probably doing harmless innocuous work, or actually tracing workable intelligence leads towards the bad guys.

Are they? Do you actually have any inside knowledge of the NSA and what they do?

Beleive it or not the intelligence community does serve a useful purpose

I'm not convinced. I've not seen conclusive evidence. Oh sure, I'm sure they stop a terrorist now and then, but the question is whether the threat they themselves pose to liberty is worse than the threats they deal with.

History suggests it is: people have vastly overestimated external threats compared to the threat from people nominally tasked with defending them.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, if it's routine for them to do evil I guess that makes it alright.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Dins]

I suspect the person you replied to was just joking, but it says something about Slashdot that you just can't be sure anymore.

How could anyone read the summary with its "time-honored 'Spot-the-Fed' tradition" and then NOT conclude I was joking?

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Cryacin]

By attending this conference, you consent to having your systems hacked, and to have your mouth sewn to the anus of another user, whilst possibly having another user's mouth sewn to your anus to form a human centiPad.

You didn't read the agreement?!? It can't read!

Re:And what will happen if they do

[oreaq]

Why not?

Because we are not them.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Bucc5062]

It might be because we're humorless drones...or because the joke fell flat. I saw the connection, I didn't find the humor. You could have gone with "I think (well actually your first mistake. Think implies a guess which means you have doubts thus you should not have raised the point) I spot a Fed...No, wait...to reasonable, I'll keep looking".

Now that would be a tip of the hat to the original summary line, but be respectful of the poster's view and a level of "funny" for /.

You took the lazy, grade school route for humor with bad timing...that's how.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi there NSA "worker".

I believe the Nuremberg trials had something to say about "just following orders" and "just doing my job". Ever since then even the UCMJ has had specific guidelines regarding illegal orders. Violation of the Constitution is about as illegal as it gets in the US.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Those who have worked there know the GP is spot on. Unfortunately, those who worked there also signed documents and went through a thorough SSBI process to obtain their clearance, which prevents their disclosure. There are no superhumans at any 3 letter agency...and I bet the ones engaging in "the bad stuff" are probably not fully aware of the ramafications of what they are doing. I am sure a few DBA's more concerned about backups, storage space, and optimizing their databases are more concerned about that than what the data actually is. No different than many of Slashdot's posters who care more about the technology and process than what the actual data they are manipulating is.

Re: And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

They were fighting against legal, passive surveillance? Um... The 4th doesn't protect data that you share with Google.

Google can do what they please with it or be subpoenaed for it. The first part you know to be true, there is no HIPPA-like law protecting all your email data. The cognitive dissonance required to disbelieve the second part probably kills brain cells.

Call me when unlawfully obtained private information is used against you in court, then we can talk about change.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Ambassador Kosh]

Many of these large acts of evil can't happen without a lot of support from average people. So long as the average people in the NSA just doing their jobs help organizations like the NSA to remain staffed an operational they are complicit in the dirty dealings of the organization.

The leaders do share a huge share of the ethical burden but definitely not all of it. They could not do what they do without so many people willing to help them and so many people that consider something to be just a job and don't look at the ethical issues at all.

I wish we knew a lot more about these organizations. They should receive positive feedback when they operate the right way and negative when they act the wrong way. Right now they only get negative and I doubt the organization is universally bad but without both reinforcements and greater public awareness along with people unwilling to do these immoral acts it is very hard to get change.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Gunnut1124]

We've heard that "Just following orders" defense somewhere before... You might want to Google that and see how those trials turned out. The fact that they are mindless drones in a machine that is performing reprehensible acts, but hold no hate for their victims themselves, does not make them innocent. After Snowden, anyone willing working for the NSA and not looking for work elsewhere is approving of and endorsing their crimes.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Chris Mattern]

Not only does that law not exist in America, that law would be unconstitutional in America. 1st Amendment, y'know.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Charliemopps]

So your argument is they are just following orders? That's pretty funny.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

This is my philosophy: If the government considers it a weapon, that alone should invoke the Second Amendment. Any legal scholar worth his salt knows that said amendment is a doomsday clause.

--
Another fine opinion from The Fucking Psychopath®.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they? Do you actually have any inside knowledge of the Third Reich and what they do, beyond what you read int eh papers and hear on /. ? Like any standing army it's largely ordinary civil service just doing a day to day job to feed their family. Most of them are ordinary people no more deserving of your hate (and yes, it is bigoted hate, oriented around their job instead of race or creed) than anyone else. Most of them are probably doing harmless innocuous work, or actually tracing workable intelligence leads towards the bad guys. the few actually involved in "the bad stuff" we all hate are probably the same ordinary civil service workers who just "doing their job" and give no more thought to the moral rightness of what theyre doing than a Volkswagon worker does as he tightens the same nut 50k times a day as the line moves past. Your unreasonably unlimited hate and vitriol only helps fuel the problem. Beleive it or not the armed forced community does serve a useful purpose, and the scandal is only one facet of them. Better to narrow your focus only towards the ones actually responsible, the ones in charge, politician and appointee alike, who decided they needed to violate our rights to "keep us safe". Hating them all is unreasonable and no different than any other unreasonable guilt-by-association based hatred through history.

It's perfectly reasonable to hate an entire organization if they're involved in anything worthy of receiving that hate even if it's .01% of the people in that organization if they refuse to acknowledge their fault and change for the better.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me probably not be the first one to reply to you ever with: wtf?

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Hatta]

Like any fed agency it's largely ordinary civil service just doing a day to day job to feed their family. Most of them are ordinary people no more deserving of your hate (and yes, it is bigoted hate, oriented around their job instead of race or creed) than anyone else.

Would you make the same arguments about e.g. Al Qaeda's accountant? Or the contractors on the Death Star?

Most of them are probably doing harmless innocuous work

If you sweep the floors for the enemy, you're still working for the enemy.

Beleive it or not the intelligence community does serve a useful purpose

Only useful to those interested in projecting American hegemony across the planet for all of eternity.

the same ordinary civil service workers who just "doing their job" and give no more thought to the moral rightness of what theyre doing than a Chevy worker does as he tightens the same nut 50k times a day as the line moves past.

And that's the problem. They're morally negligent, that's no better than being morally wrong. Remember, the only thing required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. These people aren't just doing nothing, they're providing support.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[FuzzNugget]

the few actually involved in "the bad stuff" we all hate are probably the same ordinary civil service workers who just "doing their job" and give no more thought to the moral rightness of what theyre doing than a Chevy worker does as he tightens the same nut 50k times a day as the line moves past.

Wow, mark this day on the calendar, folks. It's the day you saw a Slashdotter in support of the Nuremberg defense. Is this, like, the anti-Godwin?

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

The lowest ring of hell is reserved for those that remained neutral during a moral crisis.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[LurkerXXX]

Right! I mean why did everyone in Russia hate the secret police? What's wrong with secretly spying on all your neighbors? Dose that make them bad guys?

Yes.

Re: And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Call me when unlawfully obtained private information is used against you in court, then we can talk about change.

does

Oh so I take it, you never heard of Gitmo and no-fly lists? you may want to take your head out of the sand, especially after this sentence of yours.

The cognitive dissonance required to disbelieve the second part probably kills brain cells.

Maybe that's because your English comprehension isn't up to scratch as it makes perfect sense. Sigh some people don't know they're born these days to wonder about their rights when they have apathy to politics.

These people are the degenerates of society and don't deserve saving.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[fustakrakich]

Better to narrow your focus only towards the ones actually responsible...

The people (the ordinary 'Joes') who carry out the order are the ones actually responsible, not the ones who make the order, which is nothing but words. It the action that counts, not the tongue wagging.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[HeckRuler]

Yeah, this.

I'm sure that throughout the decades there were perfectly normal and nice people that participated in the KKK. I imagine in some regions it was more of a BBQ-club than a hate-mongering organization. That people joined simply due to the social stigma of not joining, they liked their neighbors, and oh yeah, ra ra white power.

But that doesn't matter, because the leadership of that organization is bat-shit anti-social insane. And by being in that group the members gave legitimacy to those leaders and provided them power. A nutter with just his cats to talk isn't a political threat. It's not a voting bloc. It's not an establishment that people in power care about. The nutter can still be dangerous all by himself, but not the sort of social force that the KKK represented. The leaders of the KKK aren't a big threat if they don't have anyone to lead.

I don't particularly blame people working in federal positions for the atrocities of the federal government across the board. The postal worker in town didn't torture prisoners in Abu Ghraib. The US general in Iraq didn't illegally spy on US citizens. But they do share some of the blame just for being in the same group. The same way that I share some of the blame by being a US citizen. (Because we run this town, right? Right!?)

But I 100% completely blame the NSA workers associated with this spying project for being complacent about it's violation of the US constitution. I've worked places where the broad governing rules were paid lip service, and everyone generally agreed that we should be following them, but specifically disagreed about how we were blatantly violating them because of excuse excuse excuse, it's-special-in-this-case. If the hammer came down, EVERYONE in that company deserved to be hit. I know, I know, you wants to keep your job, you don't want to rock the boat, and you think you're doing some good in the world. So pass the buck. Send an email. Ask the boss in a very traceable and and blunt way. Do that and now it's HIS problem. Give him some time to decide if he wants to double-down on doing something illegal or if he wants to fix it. If he doesn't fix it, GO OVER HIS HEAD. Because it's good for the company/government/society to fix these problems. In the long run.

And if you can't trust the official channels, fuck it, blow that whistle.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[datavirtue]

Not really fair. The government employs at least 30% of workers in our country. These are people who have to work somewhere.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Dripdry]

Don't give us this "just doing my job" nonsense.

Oddly, this is what the German people said consistently during WWII. "I didn't see anything" (but in german) was very common. People turn a blind eye because they need a job. When that desperation is so acute that people can be turned to do something terrifying collectively then there's a problem.

Also, those people KNOW what they are doing, piece by piece, little by little. Actual people allow those decisions, and must be stopped.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Hatta]

Most times they come to work like most people, processing paper work, managing information, and trying to make it to the end of the day so they can enjoy life.

And why does that excuse them from assisting evil? These people have a moral responsibility to evaluate the system that they are working in.

As the GP said, save the vitriol for those that make policy

Policy doesn't do anything if there aren't people to carry out that policy. Those who choose to help carry out bad policy are bad people.

if you don't like the current batch of policy makers, work to get rid of them in the next round of elections.

Was that *your* attempt at humor? We tried getting rid of the neocons in 2008, look at what that got us. Democracy is well and truly broken in the US. You're not going to do anything from the top down. Only when the people rise up will real change happen.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

If that was your attempt at humor...try again.

If that was your attempt at reading comprehension...try again.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Hatta]

You have plenty of opportunity to provide factual rebuttals here, and good arguments are modded up. All we have here are unsupported assertions that the NSA mostly does good, and the old "I was only following orders excuse". *THAT* is what you'd expect to see at Fox News.

Reasonable people with a brain can do better. Try harder.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[rahvin112]

Apparently you don't know the answer to your own response. 99% of the German soldiers that used the just following orders defense had no punishment. Only ranking officers in the decision chain were punished and only the highest ranking officers or those in charge of the worst atrocities (such as the officers in charge of the death camps) were hanged. Most of the ordinary military personnel, even those staffing the death camps saw no punishment at all. If you were aware of history you would know this, it was quite controversial at the time but the Allied Millitary command felt it would do more long term damage to peace and the future German state to punish ordinary soldiers even if they committed atrocities.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Notabadguy]

Have you ever been to Defcon? If you spot the fed, and you're right, you get a T-shirt that says so.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Bucc5062]

Disregarding everything else...

Was that *your* attempt at humor? We tried getting rid of the neocons in 2008, look at what that got us. Democracy is well and truly broken in the US. You're not going to do anything from the top down. Only when the people rise up will real change happen.

No. I don't joke about Franchise. Democracy will be broken the day the vote is removed. Till then you, I, we need to keep trying to change. So this round failed, figure out how to fix that and try again.

The problem with people "rising up" these days is that it tends to get very bloody, very ugly, and to chaotic to be managed. OWS failed, not for passion, but they could not find a cohesive voice. An angry mob may kill the Gentry, but they are still just an angry mob sloshing around with little guidance. I would prefer the US not look like Syria in a few years, or Egypt; fractured societies using violence to achieve a means to an end while a few feed off the chaos. Want to get out Republic back, vote for a moderate republican, not an extreme liberal. Vote for a reasoned voice then hold them to it.

I agree that what represents a politician (leader) in the US is pretty sad, but there are some notables to (Sen Warren for example) that serve as an example of what we once had in Congress.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[jbmartin6]

They are making a choice to work there even though they know what the organization does. They are not innocents caught in the crossfire.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

So your argument is they are just following orders? That's pretty funny.

^this Actually If you ever use "following orders" "just doing my job" without any questioning or minimal reasoning the YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM

Re:And what will happen if they do

[meta-monkey]

"Hey, look man, I don't gas the Jews, I just pull the Zyklon B canisters off the truck, hook them up to this valve in the 'showers' and press the 'gas the Jews' button. Gotta pay the landlord, ya know?"

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
        -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Hatta]

Democracy will be broken the day the vote is removed.

What good is a vote between two predetermined choices? You don't just need a vote, you need a functioning electoral system that's actually responsive to the will of the people. What we have instead is much more akin to the magicians choice than a carefully designed instrument that measures the will of the people. Until we have preference voting, publicly funded campaigns, and a media that doesn't black out third party candidates, we really don't have a meaningful franchise at all.

The problem with people "rising up" these days is that it tends to get very bloody, very ugly, and to chaotic to be managed

True. That's supposed to serve as incentive for the powerful to behave well. They will be the first against the wall after all. Prison terms within the legal system are the ideal approach, but when the government is too corrupt what do we have left?

Want to get out Republic back, vote for a moderate republican

We tried that in 2008, look what it got us.

Vote for a reasoned voice then hold them to it.

I would love to, there are none on the ballot that have a chance of winning.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[bkr1_2k]

While I agree with most of what you say, I will dissent, slightly. As someone who has worked there and has friends who work there, your statement "the few actually involved in "the bad stuff" we all hate are probably the same ordinary civil service workers who just "doing their job" and give no more thought to the moral rightness of what theyre doing than a Chevy worker does as he tightens the same nut 50k times a day as the line moves past." just doesn't cut it.

There are moral (and legal) obligations outlined by NSA policy, and federal policy that whistle blowers should be protected. These policies clearly stipulate that if you are asked to do anything that breaks the law (which is perhaps arguable in the case of this "scandal") it is each and every employee's responsibility to report it.

Whether or not they are "just doing their job" they need to be held to a higher standard because their job isn't just tightening a nut, it's protecting people and their freedoms. It's not the same level of responsibility at all as the guy putting the blinker on your car.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on. The fact that he actually used the term "bad guys" to refer to the adversary is a dead giveaway.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[operagost]

What leftists like you don't realize is that in order to effect change from the bottom up, you have to stop picking and choosing which people and which behaviors you like, and support all the power of the people over that of government every time.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

Very funny, when the only lesson you learn in Great Britain is that the World is still in black and white. And not even with the excuse of the European Union they seem to want to change. In fact, after finally being kicked out, it seems they use it to ensure no european is left alive. The three sides of the Euro. Greece should have left the Euro, followed by Spain, long time ago.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Bucc5062]

That's supposed to serve as incentive for the powerful to behave well.

Generally most of what you say has some validity, but when I read the words I feel you leave some gaps in actionable options. Take the quote above, when the Gentry could only depart on stagecoach, fast horse or fleet foot your comment has power. In today's world, not only can the powerful quickly, "as in minutes" depart for locations unknown, they can more likely direct from parts unknown thus saving themselves from bloodshed. We are talking here about those that run the government (yes, I'll include our CEO bosses). So we ride up, we wave torches, we wave pitch forks, we destroy property, we find lackeys or minions to hack to death while the whole time the powerful just wait till the pressure is released then step back into power. Not very effective change.

I'm not quite there yet, where you are idealistically. I still believe People can effect change, but it is becoming just that much harder. I wont be around for this, but I get the feeling within 50 years, the US will explode like countries in the Arab Spring. When it happens the people who lit the match (back to 2000 in my book) will have created their safe zone in a new location. What was the US will be a splintered land of extremist individual or combined states. It wont be Civil war of two sides, but multiple factions vying for grabbing as much power as can be had.

Man, now you got me depressed and this had started off from just a bad joke...(sigh). My one faith is that there is a silent majority of people that upon wakening can be a powerful enough force to stem the tide. Leaders like Al Franken, Elizabeth Warren can get enough of a voice to show the populus there is a better way then chaos.

We'll see.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[cdwiegand]

Indeed, and part of it is the enlisted troops swear an oath to obey their officers. Officers are assumed to have brains, but not enlistees or non-coms (except Warrant Officers). If enlisted guys thought they could be punished for breaking the law but following orders, they'd be thinking more about their orders and less about just getting them done. Let the officers do the thinking, that's the military way.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[richlv]

oh fuck it, it was a simple joke, a reasonably funny and lighthearted one. and very, very on topic. actually... i think i have spotted another fed ;)

(disclaimer : 'fed' from the usa, not from any other federative composition in the world; this statement is not meant to shock residents of the usa)

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Dins]

Man, now you got me depressed and this had started off from just a bad joke...(sigh).

Hey, YOU thought it was a bad joke. I think it was appropriate, and so do the slashdotters who used mod points instead of comment. :p

That said, this has been a good discussion with some valid points raised. Myself, I've just about run out of faith that this can all be fixed with elections. I sure hope it can be, and I sure hope what we get next is better, but I sure as hell wouldn't bet on it. Sadly, the USA has seen better days...

Re:And what will happen if they do

[shentino]

Walking away from a job and starving is only good as an individual moral stand.

Sadly, too many people care more about putting food on the table than they do standing up for what is right, which means the corrupt bosses that the first group walks out on has a ready supply of fodder to replace them with.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

and here is the interesting thing, about America. Every two years we get a chance to set it right again. The only country that tries to discourage voting. The peaceful revolution will start again if you will try.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

and those people were convicted of war crimes. Even here in america.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[yusing]

Beleive it or not the intelligence community does serve a useful purpose

They're certainly good for getting tens of Billions of tax$ into contractor's hands. Apart from that, why'd 911 happen??

Re:And what will happen if they do

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that one of their new goals might be to "hack the hacks".. to start looking for ways to discover what the NSA and other agencies are really doing. the NSA has to leave "fingerprints" somewhere unless they are literally siphoning off data at a HARDWARE level. I'd bet they are going to spend a lot of time comparing notes to see if they can find these secret spying boxes... the NSA isn't going to be happy about it.

Re:And what will happen if they do

[mitcheli]

"I wish we knew a lot more about these organizations. They should receive positive feedback when they operate the right way and negative when they act the wrong way. Right now they only get negative and I doubt the organization is universally bad but without both reinforcements and greater public awareness along with people unwilling to do these immoral acts it is very hard to get change."

The NSA does a lot of good things and certainly isn't all bad. But the down side here is that the good things they do are also classified. There are many people who work in the NSA who do amazing things and they can't talk about them. Imagine all the folks in the CIA and NSA that may have helped with identifying where Osama Bin Laden was. The Seals didn't just happen upon a house in the middle of Pakistan by accident. That effort no doubt took years to analyse, coordinate, plan, and to do all over again. Imagine the analyst who positively identified Obama? Imagine the pride they had when they found him. But they can't even tell their husband or wife. There are things everyday that our intel agencies do that the world will never know. Sans the aliens, in some ways, it's a lot like Men in Black.

But on this note, and not to get too involved in the debate on surveillance, we are quick to criticize the NSA for the revelations that Snowden released, but yet we have companies like Google, who's job it is to suck up all the information in the first place. Think about it, Google has access to probably nearly every webpage on earth, a huge percentage of our emails, a huge number of our cell phone and VOIP calls, pictures of our doorsteps, and now is even coming out with a pair of glasses for everyone to walk around recording their day-to-day lives, and an ultra highspeed Internet that they can see all of our day to day surfing on. If we're worried about metadata in the hands of the NSA, why are we not worried about the intrusiveness of the companies we do business with?

Re:And what will happen if they do

[DarkOx]

That is why as a society we need to create a cost to becoming that fodder. If you know that doing something will make you a social outcast; might make you less employable in the future, etc. You will be less likely to do it; even if the pay is good today.

People do think about they future. Voluntarily joining a class of untouchables is not something they are likely to do. If you don't want government to engage in these activities make it impossible for them to find willing workers; by making the works unwilling.

Hi, I'm Sea Bass, Looking for a date @ DEF-CON

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be the one dressed as a lumberjack, covered in salt.

Re:Hi, I'm Sea Bass, Looking for a date @ DEF-CON

[Anonymous Coward]

They missed your obscure Dumb and Dumber reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yab9fyO3M14

They say: "Do it!"

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it just me who misunderstands this or did DEF CON just instruct certain non-lawful attendees to "hack the fed" (whatever that means)?

It is like "Do not eat the cookies" when you know you want the child to eat the cookies so you can later scold them for it. I do not think they should have announced something like this, it just gives people dumb ideas.

Re:They say: "Do it!"

[lxs]

So before you joined the agency, did you see yourself more as a Dale Cooper or as a Fox Mulder?

Re:They say: "Do it!"

[aliquis]

"hack the fed" (whatever that means)?

Yeah, that seem like a real challenge .. ;) huhum :)

Re:They say: "Do it!"

[Torvac]

"hack the fed" (whatever that means)?

Yeah, that seem like a real challenge .. ;) huhum :)

sure, but bring your own axe.

Re:They say: "Do it!"

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not just you that misunderstands, a lot of feds misunderstand as well. Thus the reason for this request.

Some are not unreasonably afraid the feds will begin shooting the messengers once again, imprisoning people who not only committed no crime but attempted to prevent the crimes of others.

Comments such as yours combined with a long past history of doing exactly that, both recently and stretching far back in the past, are the proof of that fear.

"We aren't invited eh?!"

[Anonymous Coward]

"We aren't invited to your silly hacker conference eh?! Well terrorists just heard that there are muslim traitors at this conference, see how that holds out for you!"

But really, you guys are being overly mad at things in the comments above.
Quite a few of these people have found employment and purpose at these conferences. Even if they became a dirty stinking... yeah.

Can they extend to non-invitation?

[c0lo]

Please... would DEFCON organizers be so kind to ask the spooks to stay out not only of the conference but out of the entire citizens life? Thanks.

Re:Can they extend to non-invitation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for saying it, it needed to be pointed out that the feds make shit up and the rest of the world seems to just have one choice: to follow.

The fact that the hacker community that attends (manages?) DEFCON feels that there's enough comradery between them and the feds is only one way to point out a serious flaw in the hacker's way of thinking, and that the feds have a lot more power over them than I thought.

I mean, what we're dealing with here is a bunch of guys that get to use tax dollars to point the spotlight on themselves, using any color they like. Also they can point it at you, again, any color they like. Just let the feds show up, play your silly little game 'spot the fed' and feel superior, because that's what DEFCON is all about.

Re:Can they extend to non-invitation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please... would DEFCON organizers be so kind to ask the spooks to stay out not only of the conference but out of the entire citizens life? Thanks.

I feel like if any comment were ripe for demonizing Slashdot out of context, it would be this one.

Not the Feds you should worry about

[Anonymous Coward]

The Feds who show up and identify themselves as Feds aren't the Feds you need to worry about anyway.

Re:Not the Feds you should worry about

[Thanshin]

The Feds who show up and identify themselves as Feds aren't the Feds you need to worry about anyway.

While saying that those weren't the feds we need to worry about... Did you wave a hand?

Re:Not the Feds you should worry about

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, man. You ever see a recruiter in full action, handing out the gladhand left and right, schmoozin' and boozin' like they're life depended on it?

It's kinda scary.

Re:Not the Feds you should worry about

[Anonymous Coward]

The Feds who show up and identify themselves as Feds aren't the Feds you need to worry about anyway.

Spot the fed contest would be lame if feds were to just show up and tell everyone who they are.

Re:Not the Feds you should worry about

[bdwebb]

Agreed. It makes me want to vomit in my mouth a bit.

Re:Not the Feds you should worry about

[bdwebb]

Exactly....the guys in Hawaiian shirts and dark sunglasses who obviously don't belong are decoys for the actual feds that no one notices.

Re:Not the Feds you should worry about

[Patman64]

I think that's how they plan on getting in this year.

When you dance with the Devil,

[Anonymous Coward]

When you dance with the Devil, the Devil doesn't change - you do.

Look up Smedley Butler. He joined for patriotism, he was decorated for bravery and then he was used to murder civilians for agribusiness. Here we are a century later and the game is the same. Young men join for patriotism and end up murdering civilians for the profits of the 1%

Re:When you dance with the Devil,

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

Re:When you dance with the Devil,

[Anonymous Coward]

is this the new google suggest integration with slashdot?

Re:When you dance with the Devil,

[crtreece]

You left off the part where he spent his time after retiring from the marines lecturing "against war profiteering, U.S. military adventurism, and what he viewed as nascent fascism in the United States"

Recycling an outworn meme

[nojayuk]

In USA, Fed hacks YOU!

In an alternate universe the Def Con membership includes somebody by the name of Snowden... is he considered a Fed or not-Fed?

Re:Recycling an outworn meme

[mdragan]

He is clearly well fed, but considering going hungary, or maybe Venezuela.

Defcon needs rave girls

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuff said. Slutty, promiscuous girls seem to be the norm for conference attractions anymore.

uhmmmmm i call bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

the guy who used to run l0pht now runs the Cyber Insider Threat program.

hackers have a nebulous grasp on morality..... so do the feds. thats who hires them.

i wouldnt be surprised if some of these cons, and especially these websites, were funded by the government.

Re:uhmmmmm i call bullshit

[cffrost]

My Slashdot friend PopeRatzo directed my attention to the following article, which provides a good overview for those unfamiliar with the Obama administration's "Insider Threat Program;" if any doubts remained regarding "the most transparent administration in US history," prepare to be even more disgusted:

Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S. [2013-06-20]

as one of those top hackers

[Anonymous Coward]

ive never been nor shall i go for that very reason they do go.
anyone that thinks they are a hacker why the fuck would you out yourself so badly to them...
unless your a nsa type.
THATS what it has become a nsa recruiting ground for jerks.

Re:as one of those top hackers

[Anonymous Coward]

You couldn't hack around your own dick.

That isn't unauthorised access

[Anonymous Coward]

And moreover you can't take your face off to walk around in an area where you may be hurt.

So your analogy doesn't apply.

lolwhat

[Anonymous Coward]

you want a job dont you? unemployed low computer skills , no original ideas...the fuckin fact is i dont care what the feds know in fact the less the better it would seem yet here you fucking are saying you want htem to know shit...

after all this nsa shit the first crap out of any real hackers mouth is

FUCK OFF

They should have the Feds there!

[Anonymous Coward]

And instead of playing "Spot the Fed" they play "Jeer at the Fed".

"Hey Fed, came hear to spy?! Here have a look!" And then moon him.

"Hey Fed, I got a one reason why you shouldn't spy!" Then flip him off.

"Hey Fed, I almost went into the NSA, but I wasn't eligible because my mother wasn't paid to have sex with my father."

You get the picture.

Feds probably go there to recruit, too...

[Bearhouse]

Although (as seen here on /.) that's not been going too well for them lately, at least publicly.

But time, and the "law" is on their side.
And of course, they don't even have to physically go there to find out what's going on.

Showcase something smart, but borderline legal, and maybe you'll get a call after the conf. "inviting" you to join the team.

Re:Feds probably go there to recruit, too...

[Minupla]

Heck, last year the NSA had a fscking recruiting booth there (and an enigma machine, which was frankly cool)!

DoD has been recruiting there for years. Fortunately being non-US, the conversations are shorter for me.

Min

Re:Feds probably go there to recruit, too...

[cbhacking]

The ENIGMA was cool. I didn't even look at their pamphlets or anything, though. If the US found itself engaged in a legitimate war, I might consider provding my technical skills to the US government. Until then, I'll stay private sector, thank you very much.

Spot the Government Contractor

[lemur3]

Would it be any more difficult to spot one of the vast numerous contractors that work at the behest of the feds?

Re:Spot the Government Contractor

[schneidafunk]

You mean like Jeff Moss?

Re:Spot the Government Contractor

[Em Adespoton]

Would it be any more difficult to spot one of the vast numerous contractors that work at the behest of the feds?

That's easy, if you include industry partners. Close your eyes, spin around once, stick out your finger, and it'll likely be pointing at one.

We're talking about DEFCON... not Blackhat of the previous decade.

Brazilian?

[quenda]

Spot the fed may just turn into hack-the-fed

I hope you are not suggesting DEFCON might go Brazilian on them?

Who knows? An Orwellian surveillance state is a lot more serious than soccer.

Re:Brazilian?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes! Brazilian is good!
( not the country...)

Re:Brazilian?

[BForrester]

I hope you are not suggesting DEFCON might go Brazilian on them?

We can haggle over a working definition of privacy, but unauthorized waxing in *that region* is way, way over the line.

Re:Brazilian?

[Anonymous Coward]

You own me a cup of coffee and a new keyboard :)

Re:Brazilian?

[meta-monkey]

"Waterboarding is so 2005. We're into taintwaxing now. It's an Enhanced Depilatory Technique."

Federal restrictions will give them what they want

[Anonymous Coward]

The conference organizers will likely get their wish, one way or another. For various reasons (Congressional budget fights, sequestration, a few high-profile wastes of taxpayer money, and an overarching effort to look austere) the administration has clamped down hard on all kinds of meetings and official travel, even in support of the agency mission. See Executive Order 13589 for more details. Lengthy approval processes, limits on number of Federal attendees at conferences, and restrictions on weekend travel will keep the Feds away from this conference. The irony is that the administrative cost of policing federal travel, combined with the missed opportunities for buying cheaper airfare and early conference registration, could be costing more money than it saves.

Insufficiently paranoid, actually

[argStyopa]

If you think the Feds you knew were there were the only Feds there, you're an idiot.

Personally, were I an FBI wonk, I'd have long-ago made penetrating DEFCON a priority on so many levels and so long ago that I'd have deep-penetration spooks in the leadership today, guiding policy. That's practically Machiavelli 101.

Hell, I'd have even doubled-up, and sent honeypot Feds to BE hacked/cracked/busted, so the Defcon kids would feel like they were winning, ala:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8581/4puc.jpg

(SFW aside from PG13 language).

Re:Insufficiently paranoid, actually

[blueg3]

You know, most of the feds that go to Defcon are simply security researchers and hackers, just like half the other people there, who happen to work for a different organization.

Re:Insufficiently paranoid, actually

[DNS-and-BIND]

That's the running joke since Defcon 1. That's why there is a "spot the Ph3d!" contest in the first place.

That's also why it was a running joke for so long that anyone serious would never go to Defcon. Only idiots went there, like script kiddies, attention whores, people who copy & pasted manuals and got published on 2600, and grayareas.

Re:Insufficiently paranoid, actually

[L4t3r4lu5]

If you think the Feds you knew were there were the only Feds there, you're an idiot.

DEF CON: It's Feds all the way down.

semantics

[PopeRatzo]

Does "Fed" include all the people in that room who are contractors for various federal agencies?

Does anyone believe that being once removed by virtue of a private company makes you any less part of the police state?

Re:semantics

[Anonymous Coward]

As a contractor to a federal agency, I'm going.

\deal with it.

Re:semantics

[GameboyRMH]

Does anyone believe that being once removed by virtue of a private company makes you any less part of the police state?

Sadly most either think so, or don't - but don't care.

Re:semantics

[tqk]

Does anyone believe that being once removed by virtue of a private company makes you any less part of the police state?

Ask Ed Snowden.

Re:Federal restrictions will give them what they w

[Dins]

Lengthy approval processes, limits on number of Federal attendees at conferences, and restrictions on weekend travel will keep the Feds away from this conference.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!1!

Not ALL bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Some federal agencies are still the good guys. Or at least are necessary. And the IT security folks in those agencies want to be able to defend the data, paid for or supplied by U.S. citizens, from the bad guys (criminals, other governments). There's an old saying (or maybe it was a song) that one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch. There's another one about throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I understand and concur with the desire to protest the current surveillance state. But is it really a good idea to deprive NOAA or the IRS of the tools they may need to protect the integrity of climate or weather data, or to keep your tax returns out of the hands of identity thieves? Don't forget, we still have common foes out there. And not everyone in the U.S. government was complicit in the domestic surveillance.

Re:Not ALL bad

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a good idea to deprive the IRS of all funds before it's used as a hammer again.

Re:Not ALL bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely there are better targets for a identity thief than the IRS. One that, you know, don't routinely send people away for life in prison.

Simple hack:

[Anonymous Coward]

Presumably everyone going to the conference has an email address. So attach leaked classified documents to email notifications about the conference. This will put actual feds and contractors into a red-tape nightmare.

Re:Simple hack:

[blueg3]

DefCon is cash only, no registration, no identifying information.

Re:Simple hack:

[Cid Highwind]

Ok, so insert a few random leaked documents into every presentation. By the end of the week, anyone with a security clearance will have so much paperwork to do explaining why they had unauthorized access to every one of hundreds of pieces of classified information, they won't get around to doing any real work until the week before DefCon 2014.

Re:Simple hack:

[Em Adespoton]

Even better than this: use the following as a style guide for presentation templates:
http://www.ncis.navy.mil/securitypolicy/seced/trng/NSMC%20Student%20Guide/sg_4-1.pdf

Every slide in the deck labeled TOP SECRET with headings listed as 1.4(d) TS//NOFORN, with at least one slide of a leaked document embedded should be enough to keep anyone with security clearance out of the presentations, or with a lot of paperwork.

For that matter, just make the sign-in pages leaked documents -- nothing quite says headache like explaining what your signature is doing on a document outside of your clearance.

that's dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

I enjoy "adventures in technology" as much as the next civvie but there's no reason to be fat or slovenly, and that certainly doesn't make me a fed.

You're the type to get popped by narcs, so busy are you looking for superficial indicators.

while we are at it

[cod3r_]

Please stay off my phone records and phone calls, and stay out of my internet logs, and all that noise..

They'll still be there.

[intermodal]

They just won't be having any fun, and will have to keep a lower profile this year unless their goal is to literally destroy the event. Which is a distinct possibility. The threat this poses to our freedom of association is more deeply concerning to me than any specifics of what they might do.

Re:Federal restrictions will give them what they w

[GameboyRMH]

I think he's generally right but certainly not in the case of THIS conference.

probably, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

the point is to show the feds that they're persona non grata.

NO NO NO

[RobertLTux]

it would go "These are not the drones^HFeds you are looking for"

Jeff Moss works for the feds

[schneidafunk]

On the other hand, the founder is a consultant for homeland security and has invited the feds since the first year.

Re:Jeff Moss works for the feds

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, the founder is a consultant for homeland security and has invited the feds since the first year.

Yes, which should even drive the point even harder regarding just how much has recently changed when Jeff voices the concerns himself, and calls for this type of segregation for the first time in the 21-year history of the CON.

Re:Jeff Moss works for the feds

[techsoldaten]

I think Jeff is a sincere fellow who seeks to have a nice conference and avoid issues that could be tough on either the Fed side or the Hacker community side.

I don't take his request as retaliation over government policies, and mroe as recognition that the community coming out to DefCon is very different from the one that will be attending BlackHat.

The point of the conference, regardless of anything anyone wants to say, is to have fun. My take is that he is trying to preserve that spirit for the conference.

Pot calling kettle black. Moss works for DHS

[haus]

Does it seem strange that someone working for the Federal Government (DHS) is asking other Federal Employees to stay away?

How about looking up "Fighting Words"?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the US's fanatasy history is practically predicated on "Did you call me a buddy funster? I'll meet you at high noon!".

all of a sudden im very sad

[Anonymous Coward]

i am starting to feel i cant trust this place to post anymore
even as A/C
its been a nice run slashdot, i wonder where ill go now
goddam secret police , only thing you are doing is ruining americas trust in itself and our nation of laws has become a nation of secrets
ive been here since just after taco left and ive heard it said many times but now i realize it is true
"slashdot is dying", that is very sad to me because for me its true

Re:Federal restrictions will give them what they w

[Dins]

I agree - if this was a "How to be a more effective person" conference, it'd probably be denied.

What about the hacker ethic?

[dr_dank]

Openness to all & the free exchange of ideas and information with curious people doesn't seem compatible with the exclusion of any one group.

Re:What about the hacker ethic?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess that ends when one group seems to be a nuissiance to the entire scene. The move is not perminant, rather a request that the federal government step back and re-address their sensabilities.

DefCon is mainly a weekend party.

[bytesaber]

I went to Defcon 15 and 16. Both years it was just tons of porn on every screen, people drinking all day long, and ill mannered conversation. Aside from a very inspiring talk by G-Mark, I did not see much benefit in going. I would attend speakers who attempted to explain some complicated topic in 30 - 45 minute windows, and essentially did not teach anything. Rather they would just tell stories about how they hacked such and such places and had the audience cheering for them. I fail to see what Fed's even gain from attending.

Re:DefCon is mainly a weekend party.

[mu51c10rd]

tons of porn on every screen, people drinking all day long, and ill mannered conversation

I fail to see what Fed's even gain from attending.
Might want to connect the dots. You've never worked at a federal agency have you?

boo hoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Ohh poor NSA worker (or contractor), they have no choice but to work for an agency that has been proven to be hostile to both the Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and in creating this monstrous weapon, has shown their naked aggression to all people of the world.

Oh wait! They do have a choice. If I were them, I would be living in fear that one day their child will ask them: "Daddy, did you help them build the apparatus of tyranny?"

Just because we have a corrupted system that has allowed these blatant breeches, doesn't mean that these law twisters are the only source of moral authority. That poor little NSA worker has their own moral authority to either stand up (like Snowden did) or sit down, quit their immoral job and get a job that is compatible with the common standards of morality that we have enshrined in documents like the Constitution and the UDHR.

4th Amendment

[Roger W Moore]

Ah, you mean the same document which has rules against unreasonable searches? How's that working out?

Re:4th Amendment

[Anonymous Coward]

They're still illegal, dipshit. Enforcement is a different matter.

Re:4th Amendment

[operagost]

That's the fourth amendment, not the first. I'm not sure if you're implying that because government unsurprisingly infringes on the rights of its citizens that we should just call the whole thing off? Just what I'd expect from a subject.

Re:4th Amendment

[Roger W Moore]

No - I'm implying that saying "oh they can't do that it would be against the US constitution" is not a good argument when you have a US government that is already doing things that appear to be against the US constitution. It's akin to arguing that it's safe to leave a laptop on a park bench because it would be illegal for anyone to take it. It might be illegal to take it but that will not stop it getting nicked will it?

As for being a subject, while no government or country is perfect I honestly believe Canada has a far more open, friendly and accepting society than the US. There might have been a bit more of a barb to your comment in the late 18th century but in the 21st century I think I have a lot more to be proud of as a subject of her majesty living in Canada that I would have as a citizen in the US.

Please move this out of Vegas (It' too hot!!!!!)

[mallyn]

Folks: If I was a fed, I would be happy not to go there! That has got to be the most uncomfortable place to hold a conference like this. It's been over 100 degrees there lately. That is hot and uncomfortable!! Can we please move this thing to a place that's cooler and more comfortable, like Seattle or Portland, Oregon??????? Mark

I am the Fed

[Notabadguy]

I still have my "I am the Fed" shirt from 2005. Fond memories. :)

It's all about transparancy

[Anonymous Coward]

Oversight does not equal accountability!

Re:Please move this out of Vegas (It' too hot!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

pet pev: s/was/were/

Serfs are not in charge

[ikhider]

Since when do Serfs tell the Watchers of the corporate serfdom what to do? If you want to be in this position, change the hierarchy of power to 'we the people'. Until then, bow to the watchers and your corporate overlords.

Re:Pot calling kettle black. Moss works for DHS

[Em Adespoton]

Does it seem strange that someone working for the Federal Government (DHS) is asking other Federal Employees to stay away?

No, not really.

if you ask nicely enough

[Khashishi]

If you ask nicely enough, maybe they'll go away. Remember to say "please".

My Documents Folder

[Firethorn]

Or they're running a very quirky honeypot...

My Documents folder is filled with Badgers. Lots of Badgers. ;)

Re:My Documents Folder

[Shoten]

Or they're running a very quirky honeypot...

My Documents folder is filled with Badgers. Lots of Badgers. ;)

"Document Badger don't care. He don't give a shit!"

Feds all the way?

[Firethorn]

Heh, reminds me of a joke involving Militias -

Roughly speaking, you have an extremist militia going, then they go to do the bust, but it turns out EVERYONE is a member of some police department.

Unauthorized access not that big of a deal...

[Firethorn]

1. 'Inadvertently' seeing classified, for somebody with any clearance, is a single piece of paper.
2. It's simple enough to say they have 'need to know'
3. Paperwork snafus aside, once something is leaked it's no longer classified. The paperwork snafus have been epic with the latest leaks though...

DEF CON a free fire hack zone

[Anonymous Coward]

Print it on the ticket. Or on the every changing website agreement you agree to when you attend DEF CON.

(Shoulda read the fine print!)

By attending DEF CON, you agree that any computing device you bring is fair game to hackers.

Define DEF CON a 'security exercise'. By attending your are consenting, that your iPhone or Android you bring is part of the community effort, the community workshop to address security issues. To simulate a complex live, in the wild, laboratory for security experts.

This makes hacking the Feds legal, but restricts the damage to a known area and time.

If you get pwned or hacked or bricked, shoulda read the fine print.

Sorta like I consent to be strip searched and anal probed when I attend a Rock Concert or the Superbowl like it says on the ticket.

Stasi

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they? Do you actually have any inside knowledge of the NSA and what they do, beyond what you read int eh papers and hear on /. ? Like any fed agency it's largely ordinary civil service just doing a day to day job to feed their family. Most of them are ordinary people no more deserving of your hate (and yes, it is bigoted hate, oriented around their job instead of race or creed) than anyone else.

Just like the Stasi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others

question

[shentino]

Are the feds officially unwelcome, or just being told the equivalent of "attend at your own risk because there's going to be a bunch of people here that you royally pissed off"

Recruiting works both ways

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the actual source material, it very clearly says it's not a hard ban, but a request for a little time apart. To give the hacker community time to figure out how to deal with Snowden's revelations. It's meant to keep emotions from escalating, not to punish individuals for what someone in a totally separate agency did. Any federal employee could easily show up as a private citizen in standard civilian slacker attire.

I have an idea: How do gov't employees become whistleblowers? Maybe someone - perhaps not even knowing what was happening - convinced them to shine some light into the darkness from within the organization. Could hackers be better off letting the feds come closer, so they might have a chance to see a different point of view? That undercover federal employee might be the next Snowden.