The Little Bomb-Detecting Device That Couldn't

theodp writes "Widely deployed in Iraq and promoted by military leaders, BusinessWeek reports the ADE 651 bomb-detecting device had one little problem: it wouldn't detect explosives (earlier Slashdot story). 'The ADE 651,' reports Adam Higginbotham, 'was modeled on a novelty trinket conceived decades before by a former used-car salesman from South Carolina, which was purported to detect golf balls. It wasn't even good at that.' One thing the ADE 651 did excel at, however, was making money — estimates suggest that the authorities in Baghdad bought more than 6,000 useless bomb detectors, at a cost of at least $38 million. Even though ADE 651 manufacturer James McCormick was found guilty of three counts of fraud and sentenced to 10 years in prison in May, the ADE 651 is still being used at thousands of checkpoints across Baghdad. Elsewhere, authorities have never stopped believing in the detectors. Why? According to Sandia Labs' Dale Murray, the ideomotor effect is so persuasive that for anyone who wants or needs to believe in it, even conclusive scientific evidence undermining the technology it exploits has little power."

Comments

I haven't played golf in several years

[93 Escort Wagon]

But, back when I did, I can tell you: a functional golf ball detector would've been very handy.

Re:I haven't played golf in several years

[Anonymous Coward]

But, back when I did, I can tell you: a functional golf ball detector would've been very handy.

Real duffers come back to the clubhouse with more balls than they started with.

Re:I haven't played golf in several years

[93 Escort Wagon]

Do some of those have stripes on them?

Re:I haven't played golf in several years

[rts008]

No, most of the duffers do not have stripes. ;-)

Re:I haven't played golf in several years

[ls671]

Golf caddies do just that, and more. Back when I did, they were available on almost every golf course.

Re:I haven't played golf in several years

[tibit]

These days you could probably slap a differential phase-sensing GPS receiver, a transmitter and a battery in each golf ball, allowing you to know its location to within a few inches on the golf course...

Re:I haven't played golf in several years

[Megane]

It would probably be simpler to put an old-school chirp transponder like on wildlife tracking collars. You could probably use inductive charging to avoid the need to open the ball. If the golf course was next to the transmitter for a radio station, you could even get away without needing a battery.

Re:I haven't played golf in several years

[AJH16]

I'm not sure why this is modded funny rather than informative.

Re: I haven't played golf in several years

[Bestis]

Houston and other cities already have the micro-chipped balls: http://topgolf.com/houston/

I knew it

[lesincompetent]

James randi too was amazed at how basically all dowsers keep believing they have their special powers even after they've been thoroughly debunked.

Re:I knew it

[Anonymous Coward]

They used the wrong approach and spent too much. What works is to buy tons of golf balls then have them dropped all over the roads. Open a bunch of road-side stands with a sign "Learn golf and earn a dollar". The stands would be setup up like kids cool-aid stands. Each person that approaches gets a cheap golf club and a dollar. Solves the local employment problem and finds bombs.

Re:I knew it

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, more important than ideometer effect is the placebo value.

If the public thinks there are bomb detectors at a checkpoint, then they are less likely to try and bring a bomb past that checkpoint.

Re:I knew it

[NicBenjamin]

Well, more important than ideometer effect is the placebo value.

If the public thinks there are bomb detectors at a checkpoint, then they are less likely to try and bring a bomb past that checkpoint.

I'm not sure that's called a "placebo effect," but it is probably a major policy reason that governments don't stop using them. Just as important, if they admit the damn things never worked then they'll get a lot of legal trouble from people who were convicted on the basis of evidence "found" with the damn detector. Cops in Western countries are just as bad. I've never heard a US Policeman admit that, he, personally, screwed up; even after he got fired.

Hell, cops in western countries can be just as wedded to a superstition as anyone else. Try getting a job high-up in the State department if you a) fuck up a lie detector test, or b) tell the tester you don't believe that lie detectors work.

but Perfect for America security theatre

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody can prove your claims to the contary for the make belive threats you countered

But remember kids

[DarkOx]

All those FDA approved food additives are are fine.

The scanners the TSA uses are safe and effective.

Putting millions on subsidized healthcare and ensuring even more of the incidental costs are hidden from consumers will reduce healthcare spending.

There was no coup in Egypt ...

Re:But remember kids

[rikkards]

You forgot Cancer Screening saves lives.

Re:But remember kids

[Arker]

All those FDA approved food additives are are fine.

The scanners the TSA uses are safe and effective.

Putting millions on subsidized healthcare and ensuring even more of the incidental costs are hidden from consumers will reduce healthcare spending.

There was no coup in Egypt ...
 
 

One of those, the third one specifically, stands out as not fitting the theme.

You do realise it's the *same government* that has given us the TSA, the FDA, and the many other ruinous mistakes in every area it's involved in that you expect is magically going to take charge of health care and make us all better?

Surely you jest.

Re:But remember kids

[__aaltlg1547]

All those FDA approved food additives are are fine.

The scanners the TSA uses are safe and effective.

Putting millions on subsidized healthcare and ensuring even more of the incidental costs are hidden from consumers will reduce healthcare spending.

There was no coup in Egypt ...

One of those, the third one specifically, stands out as not fitting the theme.

You do realise it's the *same government* that has given us the TSA, the FDA, and the many other ruinous mistakes in every area it's involved in that you expect is magically going to take charge of health care and make us all better?

Surely you jest.

This is also the same government that put a lander on Mars with a sky crane and created the internet. And how come the FDA doesn't get credit for making food and drugs in the USA among the safest in the world?

Re:But remember kids

[Black Parrot]

All those FDA approved food additives are are fine.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but in case you didn't know, lots of the fraudulent stuff you buy to imbibe, inhale, or apply in the USA is on the market precisely because the FDA *doesn't* have jurisdiction over them.

Re:But remember kids

[Arker]

Actually on re-reading I believe I misunderstood the OP and responded erroneously to it.

You then misunderstood us both. Ah well. One of the few times I wish slashdot had a delete button. Hopefully the whole thread will be modded down now.

Re:But remember kids

[jythie]

Selection bais. If people do not like something, the failures define the thing. If they like something, the success define it. Many people like reality to match books and movies and such, nice and simple with clear right and wrong, works and doesn't work.

Re:But remember kids

[Quasimodem]

Health care insurance doesn't mean the government actually takes out your gall bladder, they just pay for having it taken out with taxpayer money. The government is good at spending taxpayer money, but not half so good as the insurance companies are at siphoning off profits. But then, who ever heard of a government making money?

Re:But remember kids

[jeffmflanagan]

>This is also the same government that put a lander on Mars with a sky crane and created the internet. And how come the FDA doesn't get credit for making food and drugs in the USA among the safest in the world?


Because according to WingnutWisdom, the government can do nothing right and should be looted to enrich well placed scoundrels. Of course if they had even a passing relationship with reality, they'd learn some science and some compassion, and stop being wingnuts.

Re:But remember kids

[arth1]

Health care insurance doesn't mean the government actually takes out your gall bladder, they just pay for having it taken out with taxpayer money. The government is good at spending taxpayer money, but not half so good as the insurance companies are at siphoning off profits. But then, who ever heard of a government making money?

The problem here is to allow the siphon that private insurance companies invariably mean. Pay for the healthcare without the overhead of insurance companies. But no, that's against the law in the US, because that would be the government outcompeting private companies.

As for governments making money, there are plenty of examples. All in countries were governments aren't barred by law from making money.
(But then comes a wind from the right, and some populist right wing politicians tell how much better everything will be with privatization. He gets the votes, and the government sells its profitable businesses. Service goes down, prices go up, and everybody is happy. Er.)

Re:But remember kids

[SnarfQuest]

This is also the same government that put a lander on Mars with a sky crane and created the internet.

Isn't this the same government that couldn't handle English/Metric conversions on another Mars craft?

Re:But remember kids

[interkin3tic]

There's also designating actual successes as failures and vice versa. The FDA, for instance, blocked approval of thalidomide until more studies were done, limiting the number of victims in the US. When I bring this up, people sometimes try to explain to me how that was a bad thing. I think it boiled down to cyclical reasoning about how it was bad because the market should have been allowed to take care of it, because the market always takes care of these things more efficiently than the FDA.

Re:But remember kids

[gd2shoe]

There are people on the right that are that idiotic. There are also people on the left that claim that government can do wrong, and how dare you look for waste, fraud, kick-backs, and other abuse.

Both sides are wrong, crazy, and stupid. And the left can quote bad science just as much as the right, they're just not called on it as often.

Re:But remember kids

[gd2shoe]

... The government is good at spending taxpayer money, but not half so good as the insurance companies are at siphoning off profits. But then, who ever heard of a government making money?

Hah. That's rich. Government isn't in the game to make a profit... for itself. It is frequently in it to make a profit for friends, relatives, or kick-backs to politicians. There are plenty of ways that "public" funds become "private" funds.

And if you think insurance companies are good at siphoning off profits... Governments are far better. They just don't pocket the money. They shift it into the "general fund", and spend it however they like. Taxes and fees rarely go away. Given long enough, they tend to become a thinly-veiled revenue grab for the general fund, even if someone swore up and down that it would never be used that way.

Re:But remember kids

[SuricouRaven]

Over here in the UK, the government takes it out. Everyone has access to free healthcare. No-one dies because they can't afford insurance, or faces financial ruin because they can only survive with a drug that costs £1000 a month.

On the downsides, a combination of high demand, tight funding and a government constantly starting 'reforms' in such rapid succession that none of them even finishes before the next begins have overstrained the system to the point that all you're promised right away is access to a waiting list.

Re:But remember kids

[Enry]

No, they're just not elevated to positions of power. Wingnuts on the left are more often to be called out for their foolishness (e.g. Jenny McCarthy).

Re:But remember kids

[Enry]

Actually it was private industry (Lockheed) that did that one.

Re:But remember kids

[__aaltlg1547]

Yes. My point is, if you cherry pick mistakes, every organization will look incompetent. Name one big organization that hasn't made big, costly mistakes. Is Microsoft run by fools who know nothing about software or business because Windows 8 sucks? Does Ford know nothing about cars because they gave us the Pinto?

Re:But remember kids

[danbert8]

They are so good at siphoning profits that they have learned how to siphon debt. Not making enough profit to buy off your political donors? Just give them money that doesn't exist! I mean shit, you can print it, why not?

Re:But remember kids

[NicBenjamin]

All those FDA approved food additives are are fine.

This one is probably technically untrue, because "all" is a lot. The FDA is pretty good, but they're not perfect.

The scanners the TSA uses are safe and effective.

Probably half-true. TSA is not gonna open itself up to major legal liability by using scanners that hurt scannees.

"Effective," is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

Putting millions on subsidized healthcare and ensuring even more of the incidental costs are hidden from consumers will reduce healthcare spending.

Intuitively this makes no sense, but we do have several hundred examples of health systems to compare ourselves to, i9ncluding several dozen high-income countries with economies similar to our own, and what's really fucking weird is that the more hidden costs are the lower they are.

The UK and Canada, for example, never charges anyone for anything. The Brits spend very little on health care per person. The Canadians spend more, but are still like 50% cheaper then we are, and their costs would have to be higher then typical because Canadian Doctors could easily move to Florida and get paid American salaries.

Countries like the Netherlands, Germany, and Switzerland spend between us and the Brits; but they also actually charge people co-pays and insist everyone have a private insurance policy.

There was no coup in Egypt ...

This one is BS, but it's politically important BS because if there was a coup in Egypt then we have to stop paying the Egyptians to be nice to the Israelis, which would mean they'd technically go to a state of war with Israel (the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt is part of a three-way deal with us), poor Bibi Netanyahu would not be able to cut his conventional army to pay for social services, etc.

Re:But remember kids

[NicBenjamin]

There's a degree of selection bias in that last sentence.

Obama, for example, goes on and on about "waste, fraud, and abuse," which is apparently exactly prevalent enough for him to hit his currently desired budget numbers. OTOH, his opponents frequently imply it's all waste because it's the government that does it.

Anti-vaxers can't say anything without being called out. I mean literally anything. RFK Jr. and Jenny McCarthy couldn't bitch about the NRA without snarky comments implying they're doing it to legitimize their anti-vaxer agenda from almost all of the people who hate the NRA. Anti-GM Activists aren't as universally despised, but they aren't taken very seriously because they tend to suck at science.

Re:But remember kids

[NicBenjamin]

Ahh the fun part about being anti-government:
If the government isn't perfect at all times this means you can imply the government sucks at everything.

Never mind the fact that no non-governmental entity has even gotten close to getting a spacecraft to Mars, or even further then the space station, that it was a private entity that made the mistake, or that several dozen other missions to Mars have gone off without as hitch. You get to bitch about the government, which means Republicans get to advocate for lowering taxes by firing people, and nobody will ever go to Mars again because there's no money in it.

Except the Chinese. Real smart strategy there, giving the Chinese the whole damn Solar System.

Re:But remember kids

[NicBenjamin]

Government profitability really depends on the industry.

In Detroit, for example, the currently out-of-money City actually runs the Water Department for most of the region. It almost always turns a profit. Government-run utilities generally either break even or turn a profit.

In the late Clinton years the Feds were turning a profit (or, as it's known in government circles, "running a surplus"), the problem was that we chose to elect a Republican Congress and weren't terribly emphatic in our choice of Al Gore, so knee-jerk anti-tax Crusaders from the Right took over everything and cut taxes.

Re:But remember kids

[NicBenjamin]

A major upside is cost.

Most of the US's per capita income advantage is eaten by our much higher health spending. Our government actually spends more, per capita, on healthcare then the British government despite the fact that it only provides health services to vets, government employees, the very poor (in Ohio you can't get on Medicaid if you are above 100% poverty. ie: can afford to eat), and seniors. Including private spending, you guys spend 9.3% of GDP on health care, whereas the US spends 17.9%. We get some convenience for the very rich with that kind of spending, but many people (such as myself) will never even get on a waiting list to see a Doctor because we don't have insurance, we don't have money, and the insurance system in the US is set up so it's very difficult for US doctors to give discounts to people because they're poor. The downsides of the British system do not show up in any measure of general health, and for specific diseases there are methodological issues.

In other words we could cut taxes, and not experience any reduction in lifespan or other measures of health-care, if we implemented the NHS in the US. But it will never happen because political power in the US so diffuse that nobody could simply order all Doctors to change their private practices into government offices.

Re:But remember kids

[Anonymous Coward]

The food in the US of A is far from being the safest in the world. With rampant antibiotics use, designer pesticides (Hi Monsanto!), pink paste and high-fructose corn syrup, things aren't looking so good.
Fun fact: the stuff that Mickey D makes its "hamburgers" out of? Yeah. You have to have a license to use it, it's so dangerous...

Re:But remember kids

[neonKow]

All those FDA approved food additives are are fine.

The scanners the TSA uses are safe and effective.

Putting millions on subsidized healthcare and ensuring even more of the incidental costs are hidden from consumers will reduce healthcare spending.

There was no coup in Egypt ...

 

One of those, the third one specifically, stands out as not fitting the theme.

You do realise it's the *same government* that has given us the TSA, the FDA, and the many other ruinous mistakes in every area it's involved in that you expect is magically going to take charge of health care and make us all better?

Surely you jest.

This is also the same government that put a lander on Mars with a sky crane and created the internet. And how come the FDA doesn't get credit for making food and drugs in the USA among the safest in the world?

I'm going to need a source on that. Food and drug in the US is pretty messed up. We spend some of the least amount of money per capita on food among developed countries and I have not read anywhere that food and drugs in the USA are among the safest in the world. Of course, food and drug in the US compares favorably to that of nations where widespread poverty is an issue, but I don't think that's a fair comparison. Many of the FDA regulations are heavily influenced by industry: the very people they are supposed to regulate. Meanwhile, I'd argue that similar organizations in Europe are much more rigorous in their approval process.

Re:But remember kids

[neonKow]

I am not anti-government, but I do think certain parts of it, especially the TSA and FDA, are doing inexcusably terrible jobs. A bad FDA is better than no FDA at all, but in a world where the internet is so prevalant and consumers and constantly asking for more transparency in all aspects of their lives, the FDA's regulations are rife with many loopsholes that allow food and drug to be extraordinarily opaque. Vitamins and supplements are barely regulated at all. And the TSA overspends on ineffective security measure after ineffective security measure, meanwhile trying its very hardest to keep improving public opinion of itself and covering up mistakes, rather than admitting fault when they've earned it and otherwise letting their work speak for itself.

And yes, you can absolutely judge Microsoft for Windows 8, one of their flagship products. Yes, I'd argue that with Windows 8, they have shown a significant problem in their ability to craft a UI people are happy with. Whether or not Microsoft is good at business itself remains to be seen; if Windows 8 is a commercial success, and doesn't adversely affect their future business, then Microsoft did well.

And yes, if you spend $38 million on bomb detectors don't work, when you would have argueably been better of spending the $38 million on flashlights so that at least you aren't fooling people into thinking they are safe when they are not, the government deserves to be criticized.

nothing new...

[gandhi_2]

In Ramadi '05 we had these cool spray kits.
It was a little plastic case with several sprays and swabs with some instructions for various kinds of explosive testing.

One day we caught these dudes out on the desert who would dig up UXO's and sell them to local insurgents who would use them for IEDs.
Lat Long: 33.16845,43.635263
We had been trying to catch them for a while but they were on motorcycles... try catching a motorcycle in an up-armor hmmwv.

When we caught them, they didn't have any explosives on them. So we though, hey... why not try out this kit?

They tested positive for 2 kinds of explosives. So we detained them, shipped them off to the detention facility with all the appropriate paper work and evidence... as best we could since we aren't investigators by trade.

So we are back at the OP, thinking how bad-ass we are. Then we get the idea to play with the kit some more. We tested our hands, HESCO barriers, lunch meat, hmmwv windows... everything tested positive. Guess the kits didn't really work as advertised but every unit had one.

Of course, maybe our kit was bad. Or maybe we didn't use the kit correctly. Or there was really explosive residue on everything.

At least the kits weren't WHY we detained them. They were going to be detained anyway. But the Military being dazzled by salesmen or shiny new stuff is nothing new.

Re:nothing new...

[bfandreas]

This bomb detector thing was a mixture of greed, negligence, incompetence and corruption. I can't even begin to imagine the mindset that enables somebody to make money by directly endangering lives. Every aspect of this war stinks.

Re:nothing new...

[Obfuscant]

We tested our hands, HESCO barriers, lunch meat, hmmwv windows... everything tested positive.

Hmm, everything you mentioned but one is something is in a combat environment where roadside explosives are not uncommon, and where weapons are fired on a regular basis. Sounds like detecting explosives on such items would be normal.

But lunch meat? Well, once you remember that many explosives are nitro-compounds (nitrate, etc.) and lunch meat contains nitrates as preservatives ... and that the CIA is putting nitrates in your koolaid to keep your, shall we say, libidos, from running amok...

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice to know that the people we hand guns to, whom we pay to protect our freedom with their very lives, are so fucking stupid that they can "detain" people based on the results of a fake fucking bomb test kit.

I wonder if the men that are rotting away in a secret prison find it as humorous as you did? No wonder so many american soldiers are putting their guns in their own mouths, probably trying to get more oxygen flowing to their underutilized brains.

Re:nothing new...

[gandhi_2]

Ahh. the salt peter myth.

No, I "broke one off" there many a time my friend.

The kits tested for nitrate-based and some others I don't remember. Octyl-based? Wished I still had the little hand-out.

We had a VBIED there later on. So I can see residue then. But not before. We DID fire our weapons all the time, but not over the lunch meat! There are nitrates in lunch meats, but if lunch meat causes a false-positive then your kit isn't really worth much.

Re:nothing new...

[gandhi_2]

I'd really like you to put your name on this post so we can have a discussion.

Re:nothing new...

[Seumas]

It serves the same purpose as telling your sleepless and scared toddler that their blanket is actually an anti-monster device. So that they'll shut up and go to bed.

Re:nothing new...

[mooingyak]

It serves the same purpose as telling your sleepless and scared toddler that their blanket is actually an anti-monster device. So that they'll shut up and go to bed.

I told my daughter that the monsters had nibbled on her while she was sleeping and reported to me that she didn't taste good. It worked about as well as you might imagine.

Re:nothing new...

[__aaltlg1547]

Is there another war you are thinking of that doesn't/didn't stink?

Re:nothing new...

[__aaltlg1547]

There's a difference when you know there are no real monsters and/or bombs under the bed.

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there another war you are thinking of that doesn't/didn't stink?

Maybe this one?

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

Note: I am not the same person, he was being a jerk.

Now why would you want an ac to put their name out there when you have not said your (real) name either?

Re:nothing new...

[Deathlizard]

While were on the subject of Nothing new...

Man accused of selling golf ball finders as bomb detectors
Kenya Police: Our fake bomb detectors are real

Still not as bad as the .NET Firefox Plugin dupes But it's only got three more to go.

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd really like you to keep going back to war until somebody shoots you in your empty skull. Let's see which one happens first, amerikkkan.

Re:nothing new...

[arth1]

So we are back at the OP, thinking how bad-ass we are. Then we get the idea to play with the kit some more. We tested our hands, HESCO barriers, lunch meat, hmmwv windows... everything tested positive

Ah. We had the same problem with exploding cans of lunch meat. No, really, after being transported on a Hercules and stored in heat for a couple of days, we would often enough hear a "pop" or "pffft". And if we didn't clean the "savory juices", the stench would start.
The guys who smuggled in pizza made a fortune.

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

if lunch meat causes a false-positive then your kit isn't really worth much.

The TSA spent $30 million on bomb detection puffer machines that would trigger on chocolate bars and peanut butter sandwiches. Probably 90% of the magic stuff people sell you doesn't do what it's supposed to do. In most cases, it's not because the people selling the stuff are trying to pull a scam. It's just because 90% of everything is useless crap, and because nobody really gives two shits if it works anyway.

Anyhow, your kit made you feel better about arresting someone you were going to arrest anyhow. It also probably gave some anonymous pencil pusher someplace a reason to sort a piece of paper with the suspect's name on it into the "evidence-supported indefinite detention and interrogation" pile. At no point did any of those thousands of kits ever detect an actual bomb, and never made anybody the slightest bit safer. But at least it did something, so it was worth something.

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

See, why can't they just test the stupid things? You know, hold them up to a known bomb, then up to a trash can, and note that it doesn't detect shit.

Re:nothing new...

[SnarfQuest]

Didn't they use to caim that the government added salt peter to the food to limit the soldiers proclivities?

Re:nothing new...

[able1234au]

Two old WWII Vets are talking... One says, "You know that Salt-Petre they put in our food to stop us thinking about sex? i think it is starting to work".

Re:nothing new...

[sFurbo]

Because the work in on the ideomotor effect, which is quite susceptible to expectations, so without blinding, they will seem to work.

Re:nothing new...

[AchilleTalon]

Yep, and it serves the same purpose as telling people their sins are forgiven by the mighty God once they die. So they keep sinning until they die.

Re:nothing new...

[Thud457]

you're overlooking the possibility that some of these operators have latent PSI bomb-detecting abilities and that the prop helps them to focus their special mental powers[1].

And what exactly are the commercial possibilities of ovine aviation?

[1] see what I did there?

Re:nothing new...

[Xest]

"try catching a motorcycle in an up-armor hmmwv"

I thought that's what the mounted .50 cal is for?

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

We had a VBIED there later on.

VBIED? That's great news if the bad guys are now using Visual Basic-based IEDs. They will be much less reliable and pose far less of a danger.

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a sad joke really. They react to any kind of nitrates, including fertilizers. So if you're a peasant you're automatically a suspect. Of course, ANFO is nasty stuff. Really, the whole idea is retarded, there are so many things that can go boom.

Re:nothing new...

[NicBenjamin]

This story is probably the actual reason Kenya buys this shit. GDP is listed as $1,800, but that's adjusted for purchasing power. If you take Kenya's actual per capita GDP and buy shit in Nairobi you'll have $1,800 worth of stuff. But there's very little cash in Kenya, so actual GDP is about $880. You can't buy good bomb-detectors in Nairobi, so the actual GDP is more relevant. Even that numbers high, because most of Kenya's GDP is subsistence agriculture, not cash; and it's really hard to turn produce from that kind of agriculture into government equipment. Unless you think the Soviet strategy of taking food from people, using it to buy Ford Tractors, and then ensuring only the politically unreliable starve is a good idea.

Which means Kenya doesn't have the money to buy an expensive bomb kit and equip the entire Army with it. It does have the money to buy a fake detector, give to a 20-year NCO who knows all the signs of a car transporting bombs, and then use the fake-kit as the justification for his blatant tribal profiling.

Re:nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are nitrates in lunch meats, but if lunch meat causes a false-positive then your kit isn't really worth much.

Bingo!

Actually, "worth much" is a relative term. For detecting actual threats without a lot of false alarms, then no, not worth much at all. For providing an excuse ("probable cause") any time a searcher wants one, then almost perfect. If the security people don't care about the cost of false positives (and aren't held accountable for them), then also perfect.

I've heard of sniffing equipment at airports sensitive enough to alarm on somebody's golf shoes because he'd walked across a freshly fertilized (nitrates!) course the day before. Just proof that TSA is being vigilant.

Re:nothing new...

[jsrjsr]

I told my son he had nothing to worry about because the Boogie Man lived down in the basement and was my best friend. Worked well.

Re:nothing new...

[Obfuscant]

Yep, and it serves the same purpose as telling people their sins are forgiven by the mighty God once they die. So they keep sinning until they die.

Which religion tells people this? None I know of.

Re:nothing new...

[Obfuscant]

Ahh. the salt peter myth.

whoosh.

There are nitrates in lunch meats, but if lunch meat causes a false-positive then your kit isn't really worth much.

Only if you rub lunch meat all over yourself on a regular basis, which might be a side effect of the CIA use of nitrates in the koolaid.

That's peanuts.

[Anonymous Coward]

$37B USD on littoral combat ships
http://nation.time.com/2012/10/05/the-navys-new-class-of-warships-big-bucks-little-bang/

F-35 performance specs lowered
http://australianaviation.com.au/2013/01/f-35-performance-specs-lowered/

Not to mention stuff that no one wants.
M1 tanks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/28/abrams-tank-congress-army_n_3173717.html

Thank you...

[fahrbot-bot]

According to Sandia Labs' Dale Murray, the ideomotor effect is so persuasive that for anyone who wants or needs to believe in it, even conclusive scientific evidence undermining the technology it exploits has little power."

That explains a LOT about how the US Congress thinks/works.

Re:Thank you...

[jd2112]

According to Sandia Labs' Dale Murray, the ideomotor effect is so persuasive that for anyone who wants or needs to believe in it, even conclusive scientific evidence undermining the technology it exploits has little power."

That explains a LOT about how the US Congress thinks/works.

...And those who elect them.

I wish

[Going_Digital]

If only people would believe the evidence then we wouldn't be lumbered with all the paranormal and supernatural ideas so widespread in our society today. There are clearly enough stupid people around though to make these cons pay.

Re:I wish

[Seumas]

If we paid attention to evidence or lack of evidence, then we wouldn't be in Iraq to begin with and wouldn't continue to be in Afghanistan a dozen years later.

Re:I wish

[wisnoskij]

I don't know what you are talking about. There is loads of scientific evidence on the oil reserves in Iraq.

wtf

[Flozzin]

Why do we get this story about once every 3 months? This has been shoved into the ground. Let's finally bury it for god's sake.

Re:wtf

[Tom]

This one actually had an informative bit in it. I didn't know the guy responsible is in jail. I'm very happy that he is.

Re:wtf

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding. Last time it was about Kenya and before that it was supposed to detect drugs in school.

Re:wtf

[Anonymous Coward]

This one actually had an informative bit in it. I didn't know the guy responsible is in jail.

That bit was there also last time this was posted.

Re:but Perfect for America security theatre

[Fuzzums]

Shoot first, drone first, water board first and THEN ask questions.
Who needs theatre?

Elephants

[edxwelch]

It says in the article the device can detect bombs,guns, ammunition, drugs and elephants.
My question is: Why are Iraqis trying to smuggle elephants through checkpoints?

Re:Elephants

[PPH]

And no elephants were smuggled through. The device is a success!

Re:Elephants

[Anonymous Coward]

It says in the article the device can detect bombs,guns, ammunition, drugs and elephants. My question is: Why are Iraqis trying to smuggle elephants through checkpoints?

They were trying to cross the Alps, but got a little lost on the way.

My question is: How do you "smuggle" an elephants?

Oh, no, sir, that's not an elephant. It's just a big dog. Let me show you...
Roll over, Fido! Good dog... Play dead!... Fetch!...
See? Just a big dog... Can I go now?

Re:Elephants

[Quasimodem]

They hide guns and ammunition in their trunks.

Re:Elephants

[BlueStrat]

It says in the article the device can detect bombs,guns, ammunition, drugs and elephants.

My question is: Why are Iraqis trying to smuggle elephants through checkpoints?

They hide guns and ammunition in their trunks.

A "packing" pachyderm?

Boy, those ivory poachers are in for a BIG surprise!

Everyone has heard that elephants never forget.

What they never told anyone was that elephants also never miss.

Strat

I'm glad someone went to jail for this

[Anonymous Coward]

What amazes me is how long it took.

What needs to happen now is that the people who paid for it using public money, used public money to cover their arses, et cetera, need to be thrown in the slammer for being incompetent.

Re:I'm glad someone went to jail for this

[arth1]

Here in the US, the incompetent are called "victims". There's no shame to being ignorant, and, sometimes I think, no concept of shame at all. And the black-and-white thinking that dictates that if this guy was guilty, the buyers were therefore innocent.
Sure, the guy is guilty, and deserves 10 years in the locker. But so does every single buyer. You have to be seriously retarded to fall for a scam like this, and seriously retarded people should not be charged with buying military equipment.

No ifs and buts, there is enough guilt to go around here.

I have a device...

[Anonymous Coward]

that promised to help locate the negro brain. I've been all over the USA and it hasn't pinged once. I'm surprised there hasn't been any rioting yet. The Jewish masters of the coloreds must be keeping them on a tight leash. The Satmar sect in New York, which controls all the other Jewish sects, probably doesn't want to risk everything coming undone (they sponsored the NAACP in its early days), so they had their people put muzzles on Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. On an unrelated note, I advise all of you to do a google search about the crimes that the Satmar sect condones within their own community. They are no different than the muslims, in oh SO MANY ways.

It wasn't a bomb detection device

[jonfr]

This was not a bomb detection device, this was just a scam and nothing else. But corruption does not care about such facts and never is going to.

Re:It wasn't a bomb detection device

[Anonymous Coward]

"This was not a bomb detection device, this was just a scam and nothing else."

The fact that it's still going on after the guy was tried and in prison shows that it was long con.

beavis and butthead did that

[Joe_Dragon]

http://www.220.ro/desene-animate/Beavis-And-Butthead-Mr-Anderson-S-Balls/Exolp5FjL2/

Is this the real reason?

[Seumas]

The real reason they continue to use these isn't because they somehow have convinced themselves that it works. It's probably not even directly a scam insofar as they're shoving money to some business cohort through the military industrial complex. I would suspect that what this is really about is that it's far cheaper to stick a device in a young man's hand and convince him that it's there to protect him, so that he'll actually continue to actively do his job, and have him wind up being blown up -- than it is to spend money on any sort of real device. The man is disposable. The worthless device is the placebo to motivate him to feel safe in doing his job. And when he dies, it was a far cheaper investment than the amount that any sort of real device would cost to produce, purchase, train on, and deploy.

Re:Is this the real reason?

[GenieGenieGenie]

This, right here. The motivation behind every malfunctioning piece of carp employed by the armies of all creed and color, including the various "SOPs" and similar procedure nonsense that thought-challenged jarheads think might save them from investing the activity of a few neurons and yet still keep them alive. I remember once my unit entertained a bunch of US marines for a joint drill. We made them a little IED scenario with a bunch of charges and mines and stuff (all rigged with pops, no real boom-boom). They tripped every single wire and trodded on all the mines too, but they were really happy to have followed proper procedure.

Re:Is this the real reason?

[NicBenjamin]

Keep in mind that in much of Africa you need something to do that or everyone gets raped. Literally.

Weapons that work are incredibly expensive, your economy is tiny and produces virtually no cash, and "patriotism" basically consists of bitching about the people who drew your country's borders in the 1880s.

This means 50 High School buddies are a National Security Threat if they are actually willing to take casualties on their way to storming the Presidential Palace. And by "National Security Threat," I don't mean Edward Snowden, bitching about secrets from an airport, I mean Samuel Doe shooting the President personally, and then distributing videos of the "execution" in multiple countries because he wanted everyone to know he was badass.

In the US, we have the TSA

[Anonymous Coward]

This article mocks the Iraqi for buying this crap, but the TSA has spent a fortune on similar devices...

Re:In the US, we have the TSA

[PPH]

Yeah, but the TSA got to look at scanner porn in the meantime. And yet, we would have been better off had they just bought every TSA agent a subscription to "Jugs" and left the flying public alone.

10 Years, 38 Million Dollars

[Ken McE]

That's about the sentence you'd get here for robbing a convenience store, even if you didn't hurt any one. How many people did he kill? Except of course he's getting the equivalent of 3.8 million a year to do his time. Who says crime doesn't pay?

This is not because they're stupid

[rsilvergun]

The 'bomb' detectors' work great. Sure, they have a high rate of failure, but all those false positives are a great reason to riffle through somebody's stuff looking for any old 'contraband' you're after.

Re:This is not because they're stupid

[NicBenjamin]

For Kenya that's actually the point.

Everybody knows that certain tribes (currently Somalis) are the ones bombing things, everyone knows that Kenyans have the same right to not be blown up as white boys, what most people do not realize is that this does not mean the Kenyan government magically has the same ability to buy bomb detection equipment as the US Government. Which means that if you do law enforcement on the cheap (aka: tribal profiling) all the Right groups will complain about it.

So you hand this thing to a grizzled old sergeant who can basically smell a bomb, he stops most of them (but not all, because the detector doesn't actually work). He is using a combination on intuition, experience, and racism; but he will stop a not insignificant number of attacks. And if Amnesty International complains about every Somali being stopped the government can blame the bomb detectors.

Remember Kenya's GDP is only $1,800 at PPP. A reasonable amount for a country to spend on it's security is 5% of GDP. That's $90. And that's PPP, not actual. Actual defense/security spending should be in the $30-$50 range. Which is divided among the Navy, Air Force, Army, etc. That doesn't leave a lot of cash for bomb detectors that work.

OTOH, cheap-ass detectors that allow you to be racist unofficially are in the budget.

Er, what about

[Black Parrot]

"Use the Force, Luke!"

magical thinking

[Tom]

Read "The Golden Bough" and you'll find why this works. It's the same reason magic and religion used to be big things (and guarantee their providers a work-free life):

In a situation where forces you can't control determine your survival, you will grasp at any straw that gives you the illusion of control. It's a normal human reaction. It works even if you know about it. You want to believe, at least unconsciously.

It's probably the oldest scam in the history of mankind.

Re:magical thinking

[PPH]

... religion used to be big things (and guarantee their providers a work-free life)

What do you mean "used to"?

Re:magical thinking

[Tom]

In the same sense that Microsoft used to dominate the software world - with big power comes a certain refuses-to-die-quickly element. Due to the large installed base and lock-in effects, it takes a long time to go away, even after its dominance has been solidly broken.

Re:magical thinking

[Anonymous Coward]

... control determine your survival ...

I don't know. While I understand the "I'm gonna die, god will save me" mindset, it seems to be rare. I think people have a mindset of "The world owes me, and this proves I'm special". That is, people look for 'amazing grace', not the tiger-repelling rock.

Re:magical thinking

[Sockatume]

The fact that none of those people drive to work with their eyes closed and no seat belt strongly suggests otherwise.

Re:but Perfect for America security theatre

[amiga3D]

I like to yell "halt" before I shoot. It's easier if they aren't moving.

It has a deep tradition it seems

[Sycraft-fu]

Some people don't even think it is special powers, just a thing you do. My grandpa did the dowsing thing to decide where to put the various wells on his property. Not because he thought he had special powers, it was just how he'd learned you select your well spot. Anyone could do it. He figured it worked since every time he'd drill that spot, and before long have a functional well.

For him it wasn't magical or special powers, it was just the standard process. Get Y shaped stick, walk around, it signals where the well goes, put it there.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[PPH]

That's the ideomotor effect. You know, possibly subconsciously, where the water is likely to be (read Blink! by Malcolm Gladwell) based on experience. So when you walk to that spot, the stick points down.

I've had well drillers dowse for wells before. I didn't give them any crap for their show. Because they had a track record for finding water. Why? Probably 30 or 40 years drilling wells. But even if they think its the stick, that's fine with me. Same as with the baseball players with the lucky socks.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

It also depends on where you live. In the area where I live, you are 100% guaranteed to hit the local aquifer. When we were digging a well, we asked the local extension office for basic info before getting a contractor. They said to not pay for any locating services because you don't have to worry about missing the aquifer and code compliance is free by law. In fact, when you are digging for other things, you have to get approval as well so you don't accidentally contaminate the aquifer.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[master_kaos]

I was a skeptic to, but my grandfather was one (they called it water witching around here). There were a few locally, but my grandfather was the most known and best, everyone within a half hour radius would call my grandfather when they needed a well dug out (and this was 30+ years ago). He would use any standard stick that was laying around. He never charged the people money (people were a lot more neighborly back then instead of just looking out for themselves), so wasn't like he was out scamming them, very religious so not a liar.

Not once did he screw it up, he hit water every time. I was a skeptic to before I seen it, and it didn't seem like it would work for just anyone. I tried it along with a lot of my relatives, and it wouldn't do a thing, my one uncle it did it a bit.

It was funny one time this guy tried digging a well on his property twice kept getting dry, my grandfather went out and did the dowsing told him here this is where you got to dig(they guy didn't like my grandfather for some reason, and was a major skeptic), the guy ignored my grandfathers advice, dug up 3 more spots in the following 2 years, kept hitting dry again. Finally fed up he called my grandfather back to confirm the location, grandfather goes back, exact same spot detects water, guy digs there and sure enough hits water.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[black3d]

Right, which is the exact ideometer effect that's being discussed here. There are other (subconcious) cues at work which lead him to believe where the water will be - or just pure coincidence. Aside from the obvious fact there's no actual mechanism at work, it can be easily disproven. Take a dowser out until they find a spot "with water", then blindfold them and drive them around to re-test various random spots including this one. The vast majority of the time, they'll get it wrong - suddenly not able to detect water at the spot they previously said it was at, or detect water in places they previously said it wasn't. Also fun is taking them to an area known to be entirely over a natural aquifier and watch them wander around until they "find" water in some exclusive spot.
 
Map-based dowsing is even easier to disprove - again, aside from the obvious lack of any mechanism (ie, it doesn't really need proof, but just to satisfy the idiots out there we have to go through it). Give a map-dowser a map without orientation or contour lines and suddenly their "abilities" go away. Give them a fully-detailed map but blind-fold them, and similarly, they're no longer able to "detect" where the water is.
 
In all cases, it's either fraudulent, subconcious, or simply luck. Likewise, stories about "other people" are steeped in grandeur. A guy who gets it right "a couple of times" is suddenly a legendary dowser, and every re-telling by both others and himself get better and better each time.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[dcollins]

"... very religious so not a liar."

Yeah, because that obviates any concern that someone might be self-deluded into believing in magical things.

(Btw, I also have relatives said to be wonderful dowsers... and I don't believe it a bit from them either.)

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

"... very religious so not a liar."
My experience is that religious people are the biggest liars and scammers.
Perhaps it has to do with not having to be responsible, their god forgives them anything.
 

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Sycraft-fu]

In plenty of places, you can put a well wherever you like and it'll work. I'm quite sure that's the case on my grandfather's property. There's a lot of homes there with their own wells, there's presumably a big aquifer or the like underneath (I've never bothered to check to see what). So the reason dowsing worked was that any spot was fine.

He did it just because he believed it was how it was done. Of course each time it 'worked' and as such he kept doing it.

What I found interesting about the thing was that it was a 'common man' kind of thing for him and others. He wasn't a huckster that went around dowsing for people, he did it himself, for his wells, and just using whatever Y shaped stick he'd come across. To him, it wasn't mystical, it was just a process one did like so much else in farming and ranching and it was something anyone could, and would, do.

I think that might have something to do with why dowsers keep believing in it. There seems to be a real strong cultural thing that dowsing just works, and so they believe that must be the case.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't need to use dowsing for anything here. Sycraft-fu is master_kaos. You should really use two different browsers to keep your names straight.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation requested]

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[symbolset]

There is something to this. If you have an approved mechanism for intuitively detecting bombs they you have probable cause to terminate a prospective bomber, and if your intuition is right more than half the time on average, you're a hero. Since some few are more accurate with intuition and some less, and the metrics are classified, you are free to open fire indiscriminately anywhere anywhen.

Um, no. That is not how we win the hearts and minds of the people. Since the goal isn't to develop a subject colony but to let the people develop their own governance and withdraw, it would be better if we were more moderate with our weapons so that the locals might be our friends after.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[GrahamCox]

very religious so not a liar

Can you explain the logic of this part of your statement? I can't discern any.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[SuricouRaven]

Sounds like an 'ethnic detector.'

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[symbolset]

If the operator is ethnically biased, yes. The operation of the gear is more a measure of the operator than the operational goals. That is exactly the problem.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

since every time he'd drill that spot, and before long have a functional well

Of course thanks to the water table you can drill pretty much anywhere and be sure to find water, as long as you go down far enough. Haven't found water yet? Keep digging.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, re-read the tread again. Two different grandfathers.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct. As the GP said, it's not magical or special powers. But it still works. All you've done is put a name to the effect.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, re-read the tread again.

He's tired.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[thenextstevejobs]

He's charismatic and everything but I wouldn't read Malcolm Gladwell if I were looking for factual information.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, to start with, many of them claim that magical people created the earth a couple of thousand years ago, and that we go to a special place when we die.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Ash Vince]

He's charismatic and everything but I wouldn't read Malcolm Gladwell if I were looking for factual information.

I can find you just as many articles saying you shouldn't go to wikipedia looking for factual information either :)

I think it is worth noting though that the main thrust of criticism is not that Gladwell's writing lacks facts, it is instead that they take issue with how he draws conclusions and oversimplification.

That is an oft used criticism though from academics who have a tendency to other non-academics dumbing down their fields for public consumption. The problem is though that someone needs to do this as academics do not work in an ivory tower, their work often impacts on society as a whole so there needs to be some attempt at translating it into words that society as a whole can actually understand. Some academics can put things across in plain english with plenty of nice easy analogies, some are not interested in trying or are unable to. I think Gladwell is fairly good at making modern philosophical topics more accessible, that can only be a good thing even if he does do it in an imperfect manner.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[getmerexkramer]

Undo mod!!

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck you and your soap box.

my grandfather is very religious as well, 94 years old, and his word is his bond.

i don't have his style of religiousity, I'm somewhere between agnostic and deism, for lack of a better label, but really

go fuck yourself.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

claims to be religious, engages in witchcraft.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[CowTipperGore]

The guy who installed my septic system used to help his father-in-law drill water wells. A guy wanted a well and fancied himself a water witcher. He told them where to drill. When the first hole came up dry he claimed they drilled off of his mark. When the second hole came up dry he said they were drilling slightly crooked. When the third hole came up dry the driller made the guy an offer - let him pick his own spot to drill the next hole: if it comes up dry too the guy doesn't owe him a dime but if he hits water he has pay for all four holes. They agreed and the well driller hit water on his first try.

Experience > magic sticks

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[TheCarp]

> There is something to this. If you have an approved mechanism for intuitively detecting bombs they
> you have probable cause to terminate a prospective bomber, and if your intuition is right more than
> half the time on average, you're a hero. Since some few are more accurate with intuition and some
> less, and the metrics are classified, you are free to open fire indiscriminately anywhere anywhen.

Half the time? Nah, I think you are overestimating how accurate you need to be, because, even if you find nothing, you can, like the scammer of these did, claim that it hit on some residue and you just got them at the wrong time.

In fact, this is very much the way drug dogs are used. Dogs, it turns out, have great snouts and can detect all manner of things, and do great in really blind trials. However, they are even better at playing "Clever Hans" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans ), that is, if the handler is given any clues as to where their might be hits, the animals false positive rate goes through the roof...in exactly the places where the handler expects to find something.

So.... dogs are great at finding bombs or drugs in random packages... but in one of their most common use cases, sniffing a suspects car, they are just about guaranteed a hit, because their handler is expecting one. A hit, that can be explained away and dismissed when nothing is found, so their real hit rate can be far lower than chance without bringing them into question.

One study used no drugs or explosives at all, but flagged several points with information for the handler indicating the type of hit expected to set his expectations. If the dogs were 100% effective, there would have been not a single hit amongst any of the trials...the results?

from http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/02/animal_behaviour

The findings, which Dr Lit reports in Animal Cognition, reveal that of 144 searches, only 21 were clean (no alerts). All the others raised one alert or more. In total, the teams raised 225 alerts, all of them false. While the sheer number of false alerts struck Dr Lit as fascinating, it was where they took place that was of greatest interest.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[PPH]

If some guard had a knack for spotting bombers and he just picked up a bent twig to do his thing, I'd me mildly amused. Its the guy who charges US$6K a pop for the bent twig that pisses me off.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[IRWolfie-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAasVXtCOI Where is your dowsing God now.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

Self-delusion and lying are different things.

Lying is deceiving others, usually for your own gain. Self-delusion is allowing yourself to be deceived.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation requested]

Let's see. He said, "My experience", so a citation would have to be something like this.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[drainbramage]

Not to worry!
The 'ADE 651' can discern that for you.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[master_kaos]

Well, a still single bottle of water is much different than water flowing under the ground.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[master_kaos]

OK maybe I worded it wrong, but God was his life, in everything he did, so like anonymous coward said, his word was his bond, he never cheated anyone, helped anyone who needed help, did a ton of charity work, etc

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[master_kaos]

I would say it could be pure coincidence if say you hit it 10 times out of 10. I find it hard to be a coincidence hitting it every single time over 100 tries. Like you, I do not believe the map-dowsers, and hey if I never seen it with my own eyes (many times) and some random dude with no credibility mentioned it on the internet I probably wouldn't believe it either.. I can only say what I witnessed with my own eyes and from what my father, grandfather, and aunts/uncles said.

Oh, and he could do it blindfolded to, we blindfolded him in the car (in a place he never was before), a few minutes before we arrived, he got out walked around until he found the best spot. We then moved him into another random location, unblindfolded him, and got him to do it like he normally did.. he ended up in the exact same spot.

It is not just a matter of the stick waving either, I can't remember exactly how it went, but something like how fast it waved determined how deep it was, and then how much up and down it went determined how much water there was (I may have it reversed)

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Fish (David Trout)]

Similar results occurred in a similar "experiment" on lie detector operators (polygraph operators) performed years ago by 60 Minutes:

60 Minutes - Truth and Consequences

Even though no camera was actually stolen and each "suspect" knew this (were privy to the experiment), each examiner fingered whichever "suspect" that they were told beforehand might have stolen it.

Re:It has a deep tradition it seems

[Anonymous Coward]

If the process is subconscious, then why knock it? Let the dowser get on with doing what they do. Just because they can't repeat the process while staring blindfold at a map, that doesn't mean there's anything invalid about the results they get while pacing about on the site.

Just as effective as fake surveillance cameras.

[vovick]

There may be valid reasons the Iraqi forces are using these fake detectors. If the look of these devices makes some clueless criminals afraid of smuggling explosives, they are serving their purpose in preventing crime.

No surprise...

[Anonymous Coward]

They cost so much, that if they do not work then someones head is on the chopping block...

So, the state is imprisoning people for fraud?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that the state can claim I will get rich off of their numbers racket (lottery), and they don't go to jail. My thinking is that he just didn't pay off the correct people in government to be able to get away with this particular level of corruption. I mean defense contractors are fleecing the public all the time, but they at least have the smarts to know who to pay off. Drug companies sell dangerous habit forming pharacuticals to people who would be better served with exercise. But they pay lots of taxes (bribes) , so they don't go to jail. Common street dealers know who they need to pay off. This guy just didn't know who to pay off. I kind of feel sorry for the guy. He had a great idea and chutzpah, but through no fault of his own, he just didn't know who to buy off. They should have a public commision that will show up and aspiring criminal and politicians how the game works, and which wheels need to be greased. Maybe our president could get on it. I mean it is totally not fair that someone who could have made a great governor, CEO, or even senator should be rotting in jail.

Re:So, the state is imprisoning people for fraud?

[witherstaff]

It's all about scale. HSBC money laundered trillions of dollars and had to pay a few billion bucks in a fine with no criminal charges. Liberty Reserve laundered a few billion and the guys running it got arrested. If this guy had charged more so it was 380 million then perhaps he'd be better off? Wasn't there just a story about the pentagon paying 1 billion for rewriting a payroll system that they didn't use? I doubt anyone went to jail for that one (Yes, different country, but scale is important)

Re:So, the state is imprisoning people for fraud?

[NicBenjamin]

It's all about scale. HSBC money laundered trillions of dollars and had to pay a few billion bucks in a fine with no criminal charges. Liberty Reserve laundered a few billion and the guys running it got arrested. If this guy had charged more so it was 380 million then perhaps he'd be better off? Wasn't there just a story about the pentagon paying 1 billion for rewriting a payroll system that they didn't use? I doubt anyone went to jail for that one (Yes, different country, but scale is important)

Scale also depends on country. In the US a $1 Billion fraud is about $3 per capita, with our high incomes it's a rounding error's rounding error in the budget.

I'd assume what happened in this case is that the Pentagon didn't need what it thought it needed when it wrote the original contract, didn't realize this until the contract had been signed (and they couldn't get out of it), and thus the software company was actually delivering exactly what it had been asked to deliver.

I suspect this product is still loved by the Kenyans because it wasn't expected to deliver a working bomb detector. Kenya is incredibly poor, so they can't afford $Billion contracts. That doesn't mean they don't have potentially expensive security needs, and a bunch of Western donors who insist the Kenyans have a moral spend whatever it takes to fulfill western standards of democracy.

With these detectors their bomb-squads have a perfectly valid legal reason to go after anyone they think is suspicious. The bomb detector chirps whenever it's operator is suspicious, and if it's operator is racist against Somali-Kenyans then oh well.

Placebo Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

It's got the all powerful Placebo Effect on its side. Seriously, just thinking about a bomb detector would make anyone who has dark intentions seem more jumpy, thus distinguishing them from the rest of the lackluster bunnies.

don7l

[Anonymous Coward]

From a technical Romeo and Juliet tteth into when big picture. What but many find it hand...don't 4.1BSD product,

Effectiveness of fake bomb detectors

[Firethorn]

Now, while they're technologically incapable of their purpose, I wonder if they might actually be somewhat effective in real life? IE a different type of placebo?

It says that they're being used at a number of checkpoints. Now, one of the things I know about is that the insurgents/terrorists tend to observe such places before they target them. Often at some distance, but eh.

The ones doing the observing are often no more educated than those working the checkpoint, often less. So they see the operators using their 'bomb detector' in all seriousness. They think 'crap! They'd find our bomb, time to figure out a different plan!' and either delay or go elsewhere. So the end result is that they still have fewer attacks against that checkpoint.

Re:Effectiveness of fake bomb detectors

[gl4ss]

if the attack is against that checkpoint it doesn't matter if they run a bomb detector..

Re:Effectiveness of fake bomb detectors

[Sockatume]

Unfortunately That's not the case; there's at least one instance where a successful bombing was performed because this device gave the all clear at a checkpoint.

Re:Effectiveness of fake bomb detectors

[Firethorn]

One would, of course, have to go on the basis of averages. Seat belts normally save lives. Once in a blue moon they might cost a life in an accident. You're still vastly safer with it on.

Now, if there's any placebo effect, I figure that it would be a lot less clear than seat belts. Thus the "I wonder" part; IE I'm posing a theory, not any fact.

In any case, they become worse than ineffective if the opposition figures out that they're fake, and manages to convince their people of that.

Good

[musth]

...651 bomb-detecting device had one little problem: it wouldn't detect explosives...

Good.

And in other news...

[sirwired]

Shocker: In the face of conclusive evidence understandable to anybody with an IQ higher than a kumquat, people still believe in:

Ponzi schemes
Homeopathy
Dowsing
Young-earth creationism
Psychics

Never underestimate the stubbornness of otherwise-rational people.

Re:And in other news...

[abies]

I find it interesting that you have left 'Religion' from the above list... somehow, it is ok to make fun out of people believing in a guy contacting spirits of the dead, but it is not ok to make fun out of people believing in a guy raising dead people. Dowsing water is a cheat, walking on water is acceptable. Giving away your wealth in hope of getting good return on investment if you are fast is stupid, giving away your wealth in promise of 'better life' after death is cool.

Re:And in other news...

[nedlohs]

I'm pretty sure Ponzi schemes are real. And they work pretty much as described.

You can even make money on them if you are on the correct end...

Re:And in other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Never underestimate the stubbornness of otherwise-rational people. ...or the number of people whose IQ is not higher than kumquat.

They could have been bought a lot cheaper

[sirwired]

If the idea was to intimidate people through the use of "security theater", there are cheaper ways to do so. Fake surveillance cameras are cheap. These bogus bomb detectors were not.

Also, it sounds like you are making the common mistake of assuming the bad guys are morons. They can read the internet too; this $hit's been splashed all over the New York Times... if they know the devices are bogus then they'll target checkpoints that have them, knowing they don't work.

And believing you are screening for explosives when you are doing nothing of the sort is worse than useless. There ARE viable means of detecting explosives, but if you think your bases are already covered you are never going to deploy them.

Authority Testing

[karit]

So did the authorities actually test them?

They have sample explosives for bomb dogs to find surely they could test the detectors in the same way. Its not an expensive test process.

Re:Authority Testing

[mister2au]

To save you actually reading:
- yes, they tested them
- those authorities that knew how to test (i.e. blind tests) knew they didn't work
- those that didn't know how to test properly fell for the Ideomotor Effect

Disassembly of the devices showed they had NO active components - hence the lack of a power source (supposedly run on static electricity !!)

But more importantly, one can infer that there was a lot of corruption in the sales processes to a number of third-world and war-torn countries ... hardly an incentive for them to find they don't work and not buy them when you'd miss out on your kickbacks.

Re:Authority Testing

[SnarfQuest]

Simple test. Have their representatives check a shipment and guarantee they are working. Then, lock them in a room with 20 boxes. Five of the boxes contain explosives set to go off in 10 minutes. They are given 7 keys. Unlocking a box locks the key in place, and disables any explosive it may contain. Prove the detectors work.

Re:Authority Testing

[dkleinsc]

So did the authorities actually test them?

What probably happened was that the authorities were offered $10,000 each in exchange for the $34 million contract and "we don't need to test these, they're proven to work".

Re:Authority Testing

[NicBenjamin]

You're not giving the third-worlders enough credit. They aren't stupid.

You also don't understand the problems they have with security. A major one is that our recent standards for democratic law enforcement are incredibly expensive, they have no cash, and their governments depend on aid from us. There's a reason that in the 19th century hangings generally happened within 6 months of the crime, whereas today they take a decade, and that reason is basically we added a whole bunch of expensive levels of lawyers/appeals/standards for evidence/etc. I'm not saying those are bad things, I'm just saying they ain't cheap, and Kenya ain't got Billion$ lying around to pay for them.

This little toy is cheap. $3.8 mill a year to supply both Iraq (population 20-30 million) and Kenya (population 40 million) is damn near free. Since it looks like it works it looks like it satisfies Western democratic law enforcement standards, which means they ain't gonna get cut off from aid.

Meanwhile their cops get to do all the nasty things we can afford to stop doing. Extreme racial profiling, searching cars just because some asshole feels like being an asshole, etc. can all be justified by pointing to this wonderful device the Americans have provided.

It ain't the meat it's the motion

[PopeRatzo]

Even though ADE 651 manufacturer James McCormick was found guilty of three counts of fraud and sentenced to 10 years in prison in May, the ADE 651 is still being used at thousands of checkpoints across Baghdad. Elsewhere, authorities have never stopped believing in the detectors. Why? According to Sandia Labs' Dale Murray, the ideomotor effect is so persuasive that for anyone who wants or needs to believe in it, even conclusive scientific evidence undermining the technology it exploits has little power.

It has nothing to do with the "ideomotor effect" and everything to do with the stream of money that is still bouncing back and forth to some contractor somewhere and some congressmen, somewhere else. I wonder if they even bothered to hold a "show-and-tell" for military brass and congress-people, where the bomb-detecting robots performed perfectly under controlled conditions.

It's an example of the corrupt reverse of what economists call the "velocity of money". As long as that money's flowing, and a little bit sticks to the hands of everyone who touches it along the way, then there is no incentive to do too much to rock the boat.

Considering most retiring high-level military brass ends up as "consultants" to defense contractors or lobbyists for defense contractors, and as long as the people getting killed are not the sons and daughters of privilege, we cannot expect some lieutenant colonel somewhere is going to care enough to make the people above him mad about slowing the velocity of money.

There are people out there right now who are enjoying the profits from building faulty facilities in Iraq where enlisted people were electrocuted in showers. The worst that could possibly happen is that the company changes its name and carries on. In the case of the showers, Haliburton didn't even have to change its name. Hell, they didn't even have to be low bidder on those contracts because they were no-bid.

There are not many people more cynical than the ones who populate the military/industrial complex (and now, the intelligence/industrial complex). And now with the increased prosecutions against whistleblowers, we'll probably hear less and less about these failures.

Re:It ain't the meat it's the motion

[GrahamCox]

It's an example of the corrupt reverse of what economists call the "velocity of money".

If they're going to use a scientific metaphor to bolster their pseudo-science, they should have at least called it the "momentum of money". A product of both its mass (the amount) and how fast it is moved.

Re:It ain't the meat it's the motion

[Mateorabi]

No, it's sticky, so it should be the "viscosity of money".

Re:It ain't the meat it's the motion

[NicBenjamin]

I think you're misreading the story.

No US Government Agency has ever used this things. All US Government agencies are convinced they're BS, ridiculous, and Kenya/Iraq's security forces are basically witch doctors for using the damn things. Bribes may be part of it, but I suspect that other manufacturers of bomb-detection equipment would be more then willing to pay bribes.

What I suspect this detector has that the others don't is that a) it's incredibly cheap, and b) it doesn't actually work. It goes off when the cop is suspicious, regardless of any other circumstances. So it's a perfect legal/moral justification for being really hard on any ethnic group the cops think of as likely to be terrorists. In Iraq it's also a great justification for letting the terrorists you like through your checkpoint...

The ridiculous witch-doctor level BS our cops believe is lie detectors.

Missing the point

[runeghost]

The point of this device, just like drug sniffing dogs, is not its ability to actually detect what it's supposed to be looking for. Its purpose to give the police, military, or other arm of the state a plausible excuse to detain and/or search anyone they want.

Re:Missing the point

[Z00L00K]

Add to it the psychological factor - if someone starts to act nervous when it shows up you have some reason to investigate further.

However in any place outside the US the "probable cause" doesn't exist, so cops can stop anyone whenever they find it necessary.

Re:Missing the point

[gl4ss]

you could get quite a bit cheaper for that.

Re:Missing the point

[MrMickS]

Add to it the psychological factor - if someone starts to act nervous when it shows up you have some reason to investigate further.

However in any place outside the US the "probable cause" doesn't exist, so cops can stop anyone whenever they find it necessary.

Interesting view of the rest of the world. I know that you're from the US but really, at least pretend to show some sort of interest/knowledge of the wider world before make pronouncements like this. It's got to be embarrassing for your peers to make such ignorant and ill-informed statements.

Re:Missing the point

[NicBenjamin]

BS.

$38 million for 10 years of detectors is $3.8 million a year.

Iraq has 33 million people and needs checkpoints pretty much everywhere. Kenya needs fewer checkpoints, but it has 40 million plus to protect. There are very few pieces of bomb detection kit that would do all that for $3.8 mil a year.

Re:Missing the point

[NicBenjamin]

Mod parent up.

This is true in Kenya, which has very little money to pay for things like a Western-style Justice System focused on protecting the Rights of the Accused, but does have a bunch of donors demanding that Kenya magic up such a system.

It's even more true in Iraq, where the guys manning any given checkpoint are there mostly to harass Sunnis, not prevent Shi'a terrorism against said Sunnis.

I sincerely doubt either country would prefer a bomb detector that worked to one that allows them to engage in racial profiling, support ethnic militias, etc. with plausible deniability.

Disagree, it's corruption + military

[Anonymous Coward]

These are sold to countries with corrupt military. I think they just give a kick back on the sale to senior soldiers and the lower ranks use them because they are ordered to.

It *isn't* that the low ranks using them are self deluded that they work. Because low rank bomb detection soldiers don't make the purchasing decisions, and the high rank military that do, don't go looking for bombs.

So it can't be self delusion.

Look at the countries that buy them, and you can see its likely just corruption.

Pretty damned good pay for time in!

[pla]

$3.8M per year for ten years. Get out, retire young. I would take that deal in a frickin' heartbeat.

Hmm...

Hey, Uncle Sam, I hear you need some replacement bomb detectors. Have you taken a look at my brand of detectors that work by the difficult-to-disprove tachyon flux method? Sure, they cost 50% more, but I guarantee at least one of us won't regret your buying them as I sip mohitos on my private beach a decade from now...

Re:Pretty damned good pay for time in!

[Anonymous Coward]

$38 million. Even though ADE 651 manufacturer James McCormick was found guilty of three counts of fraud and sentenced to 10 years in prison in May

what about the idiots that forked out the money to buy these... so you imprison a person for your own stupidity!!! there is your "free country" in hindsight..

Re:Pretty damned good pay for time in!

[gl4ss]

$38 million. Even though ADE 651 manufacturer James McCormick was found guilty of three counts of fraud and sentenced to 10 years in prison in May

what about the idiots that forked out the money to buy these... so you imprison a person for your own stupidity!!! there is your "free country" in hindsight..

stupidty protects you from murder charges.. not manslaughter.

and well.. yeah, you could imprison someone for taking bribes for buying a shitty product.

In the case of my grandpa

[Sycraft-fu]

I imagine anywhere on his property would have worked. In total he ended up putting in 4 wells in different locations, spread around, for different purposes. Seems like a safe bet there was an aquifer or the like below all of it. I'm sure he could have chosen any spot, and he already knew the area he wanted it in. He just dowsed for the specific spot.

I asked my Dad what's that lure supposed to catch?

[karlandtanya]

as I was a 9-year old kid going through his tackle box before our fishing trip.
His answer "Fishermen".

So it just like

[Anonymous Coward]

So its just like microsoft windows.

Victims?

[mevets]

I thought the were called the GOP.

Magnet motors

[kimvette]

The sort of person who continues to believe these things work is the sort of person who believes that magnet motors can deliver "free" power.

Re:Magnet motors

[Megane]

More likely that they believe you can strap a bunch of fixed magnets to your body and have any sort of positive effect. (Other than simply from the extra weight you're carrying around, etc.) Yes, that's a thing.

Re:Magnet motors

[kimvette]

I've seen them for sale. >_>

Why they never doubted the crap? Easy.

[Opportunist]

For the same reason other decision makers never question their wrong decisions: Their career hangs on it. So if they admit they fucked up royally, it's their end.

For reference, ask any tech who ever had to suffer from some idiot PHB who had some markedroid talk him into buying some expensive, useless tech. Anyone here who didn't ever try to talk some sense into a PHB to finally dump something that keeps sinking money because there is simply NO way this could EVER work but said PHB keeps pumping more money in, in a vain attempt to somehow justify it and the vain hope that it SOMEHOW, SOMETIME finally does what it was promised to deliver?

Re:Why they never doubted the crap? Easy.

[Megane]

Well, ya know, if you bet on 37 enough times, eventually that roulette ball is going to land in 37, right?

Re:Why they never doubted the crap? Easy.

[Opportunist]

I'm pretty sure if some markedroid keeps telling that to the average PHB over a few dinners, they'll believe that, too.

B6

[gd2shoe]

And how come the FDA doesn't get credit for making food and drugs in the USA among the safest in the world?

How about because they pulled a natural form of vitamin B6 from the shelves so a private company could investigate selling it as a prescription to diabetics with B6 deficiency complications?

The idea behind the FDA is good. The FDA in practice is just another regulator in bed with the private institutions it's been charged with regulating. It's the same fundamental problem that brought us the Deepwater Horizon catastrophe.

PLACEBO EFFECT JUST LIKE THE F35...

[Anonymous Coward]

PLACEBO EFFECT JUST LIKE THE F35...amongst bribes and a promise of a cushy job in defence industries for generals is the reason we are still wasting coinage after the F35...

Checkpoint bomb attacks

[Firethorn]

Still, placement is critical with bombs. Less the larger they are, but that costs more resources.

What if they're trying to get something beyond the point? What if they want to hit the center of the point?

If they figure they're going to be caught early they'll most likely change their plans.

Re:Checkpoint bomb attacks

[Anonymous Coward]

Still, placement is critical with bombs. Less the larger they are, but that costs more resources.

What if they're trying to get something beyond the point? What if they want to hit the center of the point?

I don't think you understand how putting a bomb in a car and getting some naive idiot to ram through the checkpoint at 90mph really works...

Why has the GT200 not been mentioned yet...

[knwny]

...is it more effective than the ADE 651?

I have a bombshell detector

[Tablizer]

My dick can detect sexy women. It starts wobbling and points toward such a specimen.

Bomb-detector, golf ball finder, little difference

[Chrisq]

Bomb-detector, golf ball finder, little difference. In both cases if they turn out to be fake you could lose your balls.

Think about it

[aepervius]

Usually the geology of a region is so that digging at one place or 3 meter away from there make no difference.

Misunderstanding of Kenyan culture

[Anonymous Coward]

The link to the article in which Kenyan police claim to still believe they work fails to understand Kenyan culture.

Few people in cultures in which honour and shame are important will admit to making a blunder like this, regardless of what they believe. When they say "these things really work!", that is not a reliable indicator that that's what they mean.

It's slightly ironic that the linker takes the false claim at face value, as an example of someone so foolish as to take a false claim at face value. ;-)

David Anderson

Better have unskeptic insurgent then

[aepervius]

Because if the insurgent are a bit skeptical, and knows those detector are crap, then they will more likely try THOSE check point fully knowing there is no real detector.

Re:Better have unskeptic insurgent then

[NicBenjamin]

Remember the bomb detector goes off when the user thinks it should go off.

Which means if your insurgent group looks like the kind of people who are insurgents the damn detector will always "go off," you'll always be delayed by the side of the road for a visual inspection, and your bomb will probably be detected. If it's grandmas in expensive cars your bomb get through until the Army figures out your new MO.

The practical point of these detectors is probably a cover for racial and ethnic profiling, not anything the actual detectors actually do.

Read again what I wrote

[sirwired]

You can't "prove" religion is false (or true) or that there is (or is not) the presence of God(s). The very essence of religious claims are usually outside falsability. That doesn't mean the claims are true, or should be taught in schools, or have any relation to science. You can believe in God without being an irrational person, even if you could be accused of wishful thinking.

The things I listed ARE falsafiable, yet people continue to believe in them.

Re:Read again what I wrote

[abies]

This is why I chose word 'Religion', not 'faith'. Religious claim is that Jesus ressurected people, walked on water and multiplied food. It is no different to some guy believing in dowser/faith healer which happened to die few days ago, so you cannot throw scientific tests on him.

I'm not talking about abstract belief in non-intervening God. I'm talking about all the folklore around, like people getting miracle healings because somebody prayed to deceased Pope.

Why believing in miracle healing when praying to God is ok, while believing in same thing after drinking homeopatic solution is wrong? You can find same 'quality' of proofs for both of them. And miracles ARE a part of religion, so please don't split 'abstract faith' from all the cruft around.

Re:Read again what I wrote

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not convinced you hit the meat of the matter and, further, exclusion of religion is an interesting criticism but not necessarily valid (as you have no burden to rag on that more than, say, ESP).

Regarding homeopathy:

Non-Falsifiable

        A non-falsifiable hypothesis cannot be disproved. This is not because it is inherently accurate, but because a person has no avenues on which to go to try to disprove it. Certain fields of study, such as homeopathy, can use hypotheses -- such as water molecules remembering the imprint of a medicinal substance before the substance undergoes many dilutions, and having a biological effect on the body thereafter. Since possible avenues to disprove this do not currently exist, the hypothesis is a non-falsifiable one.

http://www.ehow.com/info_12015027_difference-between-falsifiable-nonfalsifiable-hypothesis.html

Likewise, you can't falsify my claim of speaking with my dead grandmother. "No, I spoke with her and she was very clear about NOT having spoken with you!".

Likewise, you can't falsify 'young earth' as people can just claim it was made to look old (like those kids with premature ageing).

Ponzi schemes at least can be attacked mathematically!

now thats gone!

[hesaigo999ca]

>the ideomotor effect is so persuasive that for anyone who wants or needs to believe in it
Until they all read the article on /. saying it was bogus, now we are all back to square 1, thanks /., thanks a whole bunch! ..... ;)

Re:but Perfect for America security theatre

[NicBenjamin]

Nobody can prove your claims to the contary for the make belive threats you countered

Actually, what probably happens is the cop's arrest rate goes way up because the device gives him a reason to search people his sub-conscious tells him are up to no good, but he can't actually justify searching. The device only triggers when his subconscious tells it to trigger, so he can subconsciously engage in all kinds of profiling that the Constitution of his country officially bans. As long as nobody gets arrested solely on the basis of this device the cop's bosses have no reason to stop using it, because courts don't like throwing convictions out unless they're pretty sure you're actually innocent.

You get the same thing in the US with lie detectors. In theory everybody knows they're BS, but if you want a high security clearance you have to pass a lie detector test, and the lie detector test guy will flunk your ass if he figures out you know how to beat the test.

Malcolm Gladwell? Is that you?

[denzacar]

I think it is worth noting though that the main thrust of criticism is not that Gladwell's writing lacks facts, it is instead that they take issue with how he draws conclusions and oversimplification.

Cause saying that oversimplification (a process that by definition MUST not only discard, but also ignore facts) is somehow an alternative to lacking facts sounds exactly like something Malcolm Gladwell would say.
Just like presenting false conclusions and oversimplification as a "lesser sin".

"No, no, no... They don't say his writing lacks facts to back it up. They only have issues with the fact that he's drawing conclusions out of his ass and making up a 'better' version of facts cause he didn't understand the original, boring ones."

And no... that's not the "main thrust of criticism". THAT is just the criticism aimed at his books.
Criticism of Gladwell is more extensive.

Re:Malcolm Gladwell? Is that you?

[Ash Vince]

Criticism of Gladwell is more extensive. [shameproject.com]

Lol, that site is about as far from impartial as you can get.

"No, no, no... They don't say his writing lacks facts to back it up. They only have issues with the fact that he's drawing conclusions out of his ass and making up a 'better' version of facts cause he didn't understand the original, boring ones."

Not sure where that came from, it is not a quote from my reply to you or wikipedia. You do not source it, so not really sure how it pertains to anything unless it is what you are saying, in which case I am just confused by the quotation marks around it.

And no... that's not the "main thrust of criticism". THAT is just the criticism aimed at his books.

That WAS the main thrust of the criticism on the wikipedia page linked to originally though.

Re:Malcolm Gladwell? Is that you?

[denzacar]

Lol, that site is about as far from impartial as you can get.

You are confusing "political correctness" to "being correct".
In fact, it's often kinda impossible to keep on being "impartial" AND on topic when you start listing facts about something and all of them are quite bad.

"No, no, no... They don't say his writing lacks facts to back it up. They only have issues with the fact that he's drawing conclusions out of his ass and making up a 'better' version of facts cause he didn't understand the original, boring ones."

Not sure where that came from, it is not a quote from my reply to you or wikipedia. You do not source it, so not really sure how it pertains to anything unless it is what you are saying, in which case I am just confused by the quotation marks around it.

That's called caricaturing. Look it up, then look at the quote above in context of the previous post.

That WAS the main thrust of the criticism on the wikipedia page linked to originally though.

Aaaand that is why I said "Criticism of Gladwell is more extensive." to indicate how THAT which is listed on wikipedia is just the tip of the iceberg.

And why do you keep jumping back to "not on wikipedia page, not on wikipedia page..."?
Haven't you already disregarded it as "Bah, that's only wikipedia"?

I can find you just as many articles saying you shouldn't go to wikipedia looking for factual information either :)

It can't be that you'd want to limit the discussion in such a way that you can then disregard any counterargument with logical fallacies.
That would be silly.

Re:Malcolm Gladwell? Is that you?

[Ash Vince]

That's called caricaturing. Look it up, then look at the quote above in context of the previous post.

I understand what caricaturing is, I do not understand why the hell you put it in quotation marks if it was not a quotation.

Trade ya.

[dtmancom]

I'd gladly give up the Mars skycrane if it meant an end of humiliation before I got on a plane. I am mildly handicapped, for me it is humiliating getting searched by those TSA scum.

Now I only fly when I absolutely must (exactly once since the Rape Scans/groping procedures went in), instead of frequently and for pleasure. The world has gotten smaller, for me. I hate this road we are traveling.

Racial profiling excuse?

[Firethorn]

The practical point of these detectors is probably a cover for racial and ethnic profiling, not anything the actual detectors actually do.

That's an interesting theory, and I think it probably has some merit. That exposes another possible theory as well - much like dowsers, it might enable the person to get over any hangups and let their 'subconcious' point out anything suspicious?

Note: I still think a functioning bomb detector would be better; A properly trained dog is still the best explosives detector, but a lot of Middle Eastern types think dogs are unclean and won't work with them.

Recruit more dogs.

[PenguinJeff]

Solution: More bomb sniffing dogs. Besides the dogs are more intimidating than a machine anyways.

Treason

[Anonymous Coward]

If you ask me Fraud is not good enough, treason would be a much better charge. OR we could sick him in a patch of several explosive devices some real some not and give him one of his own worthless devices to find his way through.

The device works perfectly

[Anonymous Coward]

It was designed to liberate taxpayer money from the taxpayer, and give it to the well connected military supply corporations.

Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been known for months and months and months. Why report on it now?

Fools ; money ; easily separated.

[RockDoctor]

Granddad knew that 70 years ago, and he made his living as a steelworker, not as a card-shark, economist, or some other type of professional fraudster.

There's probably an Egyptian tomb with it carved in hieroglyphics (may be a poor example ; I'm not sure that the Egyptians really "did" money ; perhaps s/Egyptians/Babylonians/ and s/hieroglyphics/cuneiform/ .)