Slashdot Mirror


Oracle Sues Companies It Says Provide Solaris OS Support In Illegal Manner

alphadogg writes "Oracle is continuing to crack down on companies it claims are providing support services for its products in an illegal fashion. Last week, Oracle sued IT services providers Terix and Maintech, alleging they have 'engaged in a deliberate scheme to misappropriate and distribute copyrighted, proprietary Oracle software code' in the course of providing support for customers using Oracle's Solaris OS. Oracle's allegations are similar to ones it has made in lawsuits against other Solaris service providers, such as ServiceKey, as well as Rimini Street, which provides third-party support for Oracle and SAP applications."

154 comments

  1. Slowaris Delenda Est by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So Oracle is trying to kill off Solaris? Because nobody in their right mind would buy an OS from a company behaving like this.

    1. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by fustakrakich · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oracle is in the midst of creating a closed ecosystem, helps keep prying outsiders out. And maybe it wants all traces of anything 'Sun' that's out in the wild to be made extinct. I am sure that many of its customers, like banks and governments are very satisfied with the services they provide.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    2. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by jythie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      'behaving like this?'

      From the complaint it sounds like they have a subscription service they charge for, then a couple companies came along, subscribed themselves, and they are reselling it to other companies. Kinda like someone buying a cable subscription then starting 'joe's cable company' reselling the connection to other people.

    3. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oracle is defending their copyright on Solaris software, patches, and etc.

      Maybe Sun used to look the other way on these outfits, but Oracle is hardly being unfair or unreasonable in defending their copyright.

    4. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by postbigbang · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Branding is branding. Yes, they still killed Sun Ray a couple of weeks ago, and more Sun products will be renamed. This is about revenue, however, and you don't screw with Oracle revenue.

      For the longest time, Oracle has wanted a vertically integrated stack from the plug to your play. Now they're starting to achieve that, and won't have to mess around with hardware vendors, as hardware vendors are changing from a server model to a services model. Oracle wants that services revenue, too. HP, once their odd friend, is now their sworn enemy and IBM eats Oracle's lunch. If you're Google, you know the taste of their silly legal department. They don't have many friends left. Products, like at Google, have only a chance so long as they make revenue numbers. Otherwise, goodbye. And the less dependence there is on outsiders, the better.

      These are all natural courses of events for them. To the outside world, if you're not a stockholder or customer or very favored vendor, please self-fornicate and expire.

      If you're looking for mirth, industrial leadership, and warmth, turn left, please.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    5. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      What I'm saying is that they'll maintain a niche market, like a lawyer with one client.. I believe they want to disappear from public view. Sort of their own little 'dark net'. It will put them in a good position in our ubiquitous surveillance society.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    6. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I never understood the mob mentality of slashdotters! Any enterprise UNIX company barring Sun never provided free updates. Heck IBM or HP never provided AIX for HP-UX for free, leave alone providing updates for it. You need to buy AIX separately even if you buy the Power gear from them. And then pay separately if you want to run LPARs on it. Sun gave Solaris for free. And if you notice, Oracle continues to provide Solaris for free - you can download it if you sign up for OTN (which is free). And there are no asinine licences required to use any of the OS features like Solaris Zones, ZFS, DTrace you name it! You also get access to the public repository which is updated for every major update of Solaris 11. So in a way, you get the updates free too! I think Oracle is doing nothing wrong if they ask the stealing companies to stop redistributing Oracle's code.

      Because nobody in their right mind would buy an OS from a company behaving like this.

      Thanks for letting us know that you are a teenager living with your mom who has never seen a enterprise datacenter in life. Next time you visit a Bank to drop your mom's paycheck, do yourself a favor and ask someone to put you through someone in IT. They will tell you about why they spend millions of dollars on OS support subscriptions.

    7. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by aztracker1 · · Score: 0

      And you know that these guys aren't downloading the same updates from Oracle to the servers they're being paid to maintain. Sorry Mr. Business Owner, that IT guy you hired to run your servers is downloading our free updates, and installing them on your servers violating our copyright...

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    8. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Princeofcups · · Score: 3, Interesting

      'behaving like this?'
      From the complaint it sounds like they have a subscription service they charge for, then a couple companies came along, subscribed themselves, and they are reselling it to other companies. Kinda like someone buying a cable subscription then starting 'joe's cable company' reselling the connection to other people.

      Completely wrong. There have been 3rd party service providers for Sun as long as there has been a Sun Microsystems. Think of it as level 2 1/2 support, anything that the actual people that wrote the code can help you with. They are often more hands on, and willing to help with configuration issues as well as actual maintenance. Or were. All our support went to Oracle this year, and we are in the midst of seeing what we can trim. When the current hardware is EOL, then that is the last we'll see of Sparc in my current shop. It's sad really. The "common" Windows/Linux admin has no idea what it's like to support "classy" hardware instead of cheap throwaway PCs.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    9. Re: Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the updates are "free", your damages are "zero". Larry's legal histrionics are getting tiresome. You guys need a new CEO.

    10. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by u19925 · · Score: 1

      Replace Oracle with Apple or Microsoft and Solaris with Windows. Does MS give free OS upgrade for lifetime on your hardware? What if thirdparty tells you that it is licensed to provide you new versions of OS on your old PC? Oracle is going after those. Each customer gets certain upgrade free and then they have to either buy paid support which include free upgrade or have to pay to get upgrade. I am almost sure, the people in charge of Rimini street were in TomorrowNow which was found guilty of copyright infringement of Oracle software, so I won't call them totally clean.

    11. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by whoever57 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sorry Mr. Business Owner, that IT guy you hired to run your servers is downloading our free updates, and installing them on your servers violating our copyright...

      Except that the updates are probably not free. IIRC correctly, Sun was charging for updates a few years before the Oracle acquisition.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    12. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You're both right. Because a normal vendor likes it when third parties redistribute their patches for them, and that's what's going on here. But since Oracle is now charging for those updates, because as it turns out they don't actually like being an OS vendor and all that entails, it's also illegal activity in just the way you describe.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      There have been 3rd party service providers for Sun as long as there has been a Sun Microsystems.

      Yes, and they probably had an agreement with Sun/Oracle as VARs. That would be one on the likely ways to get legal access to Sun/Oracle code.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    14. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Thanks for letting us know that you are a teenager living with your mom who has never seen a enterprise datacenter in life.

      Thanks for letting us know that you are a teenager living with your mom.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    15. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by anyanka · · Score: 1, Troll

      The "common" Windows/Linux admin has no idea what it's like to support "classy" hardware instead of cheap throwaway PCs.

      And they'd probably be quite happy to not have to deal with crappy (package/patch) management software, insecure-by-default, and waiting days for support people to fix nonstandard hardware because "the disk is on order".

      But yes, there's also a certain charm to dealing with equipment costing several hundred thousands / millions of dollars and old-fashioned unixen.

    16. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Non-expressive works, hence not copyrightable.

      Ergo, not reasonable or fair.

    17. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by TCM · · Score: 2

      Isn't charging for patches a conflict of interest within the same company? They make more profit the shoddier their work is. I wouldn't touch anything from them with a pole.

      --
      Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
    18. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No asinine licenses for Solaris? Run a benchmark and publish it. See what happens.

    19. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What planet are you living on? Software have been deemed copyright-able for decades now.

    20. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      What planet are you living on? Software have been deemed copyright-able for decades now.

      Software was always copyrightable. Since about 1980, it automatically gets a copyright, just like any other printed work does. No filing required.

      It's patents that are the debatable matter.

    21. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that they have free public releases is just a courtesy to hobbyists and students who want to play around. It's inevitable that there will be bug-fixes and enhancements down the road, and if you don't want to wait until they're included in the next GA release, then you need to pay for it.

    22. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Ignorance is bliss isn't it.

      Its too bad you seem to be one of the ignorant, trying to slander one of the OSes that built the Internet before your fanboy ass was a wet stain in mommies panties.

      1985 called, they want there memes back.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    23. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Deutsche Börse, a leading exchange (on a worldwide basis) is running a policy of "no Oracle if possible, even at great cost" for a couple of years now. They also move from Solaris and VMS to Linux for their real-time trading system.

      This entity makes about 2 billion revenue and 1 billion profit, but they also hate Mr Larry. And they are educated enough to know that in 99% of cases PostgreSQL will easily replace Oracle.

      I assume Oracle sales guys use hypnosis or something.

    24. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I admin'ed a fleet of Sun Sparc20s back in those days, along with more than a few servers.

      Hardware costing more than I make in a year is not fun to take apart when it breaks. And it does break. I'd rather deal with desktops where a new motherboard is $50. Heck, I still remember modifying the backplane on Sun-2 rack-mount cages (circa 1982) to take them from a max of 4 Megs of RAM up to a whopping 7 Megs. Sixty odd wires that had to be jumped. Anyone else remember swapping CRTs between old sun monitors after one of the monitor's supporting circuit boards smoked? Cross compatibly, multiple competing vendors, and inexpensive replacement options are GOOD THINGS!

      I remember back in the day, almost 20 years ago, when Sun happily sold us new computers. They arrived. Brand new Sparc20s, the newest release. We unpacked them. Then the "extras" started. Oh it's extra for the operating system. Pay SUN more money and they'll send it right out to us in just a few weeks. There were a lot of extras... Almost all of which were utter junk. I swear I spent the first 2 weeks just compiling one open source package after another. That's fun to bootstrap. Obviously the compiler is first. (Compile gcc with whatever the hell you can find to cross-compile. Then compile it again natively with all optimizations on. Then again to see if there's any difference between the last two.) But after that, what's most important? Is it emacs? less? find? tcsh? bash? They're all important. And thats long before we start getting to things like flex and bison. God I loved switching to Red Hat in '97! RPM for the win!

      Solaris was a bleak barren world. None of the tools we were used to using were anywhere to be seen. And what was there was just pathetically lacking. It was like someone did the bare minimum necessary to get UNIX certification. I mean, come on, you couldn't use the "which" command in a .cshrc file as "which" was implemented as a forked and exectuted secondary external shell script that sourced .cshrc? Almost as bad as mixing up single and double quotes coupled with backquotes and \! commands on some of those primitive versions of csh to get an infinite looping forkbomb. (Always fun on production machines.) The list goes on and on. Do you want me to talk about Solaris awk vs gawk? The nightmares with yellow pages configuration? The tricks we used to pull of putting files in /usr to keep the system going (booting) until we could actually mount the real /usr?

      So, yeah, I'm an old dog. I've been there. Done that. You can keep your rose colored glasses. I like the modern stuff.

    25. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1995 called, they want their OS back.

      Linux/Windows won for a reason, they're better (by far).

    26. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure what fanboy decade you just arrived from, but Solaris isn't any of the things you claim at this point. You clearly haven't used it in decades.

      patches no longer exist as of Solaris 11.

      In fact, there's a package system that is just as modern and actually has more features than yum, rpm, or apt.

      Also, as of Solaris 10, the system is secure-by-default in its out of-the-box configuration.

    27. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1985 called, they want their archecture and operating system back

    28. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      2 Billion? Please.. In today's business world, that's like being homeless.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    29. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean, come on, you couldn't use the "which" command in a .cshrc file as "which" was implemented as a forked and exectuted secondary external shell script that sourced .cshrc? Almost as bad as mixing up single and double quotes coupled with backquotes and \! commands on some of those primitive versions of csh to get an infinite looping forkbomb. (Always fun on production machines.)

      Talk about wasted effort. Any Unix admin knows that a .cshrc should consist of exactly one line:

      echo "SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: USE OF CSH CAUSES LUNG CANCER, HEART DISEASE, EMPHYSEMA, AND MAY COMPLICATE PREGNANCY." .

    30. Re: Slowaris Delenda Est by AJodock · · Score: 1

      That would be illegal unless you are using it for development only.

      You must accept the OTN License Agreement for Oracle Solaris to download this software. Production use of Oracle Solaris requires a support contract.

      You may not:
      - use the Programs for your own internal business purposes (other than developing, testing, prototyping and demonstrating your applications) or for any commercial or production purposes;
      - remove or modify any program markings or any notice of our proprietary rights;
      - make the Programs available in any manner to any third party;
      - use the Programs to provide third-party training;
      - assign this agreement or give or transfer the Programs or an interest in them to another individual or entity;
      - cause or permit reverse engineering (unless required by law for interoperability), disassembly or decompilation of the Programs;
      - disclose results of any benchmark test results related to the Programs without our prior consent.

    31. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est by tibit · · Score: 1

      In other words, their customers had to wait for this what, more than a decade? LOL.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  2. New business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Post patches and upgrades to a public/semi public website behind a "user agreement." Sue anyone who downloads them in the act of providing third party support to customers who actually do have the right to use the patches and upgrades.

    1. Re:New business model by mysidia · · Score: 3, Informative

      Post patches and upgrades to a public/semi public website behind a "user agreement." Sue anyone who downloads them in the act of providing third party support to customers who actually do have the right to use the patches and upgrades.

      That doesn't work. All the service provider has to do is get their customer to sign a "letter of agency"; authorizing the service provider to act on the customer's behalf to download assets and administer the updates/patches, pursuant to their customer's entitlements.

    2. Re:New business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Clearly you read the article because one of the companies being sued says all of its Sun support customers have valid Oracle licenses and their own logins to the Oracle support portal.

    3. Re:New business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But but the EULA wins all laws, right?

    4. Re:New business model by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Attempting to write a EULA to prohibit your customer from appointing another agency to act on their behalf to manage their servers would be tortious interference with business relationships -- in other words, Oracle could be sued in that case.

  3. In Other News... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

    ... Oracle continues to make more friends in the business world!

    Wait... what? Never mind.

    1. Re:In Other News... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Uh... pardon the fuck out of me, but I know what the article says.

    2. Re:In Other News... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Don't read the article. Just start the bash as soon as you see the names Oracle, Microsoft, etc.

      Nice tip. Looks like a great way to save time, without reducing one's accuracy.

  4. Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new versi by raymorris · · Score: 5, Informative

    If I'm reading that right, Oracle clams that:
    Oracle provides updated software versions for a yearly fee.
    Defendants are unlawfully distributing the updated versions to people who haven't paid the fee.

    If I'm reading that right, Oracle is being slightly non-generous by having annual payments to get updates. That's understandable, though, it costs them money to keep making new updates.

    I see nothing in TFA about Oracle objecting to services the defendants provide, just and objection to them distributing new updates that haven't been paid for. So the headline is a load of bull, right?

  5. What happened? by oldhack · · Score: 1

    How did it pan out the last time?

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    1. Re:What happened? by binarylarry · · Score: 0

      First rule of Oracle club is: Larre Bear Don't Care!

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
  6. Oracle will do just fine by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    they're sales people are legendary, and that's all that matters. IBM doesn't even bother giving IT a thought nowadays. It's all about the sales people. Oracle realized that ages ago.

    For all the complaints, the people that matter will still choose Oracle, and techies like you and me will get stuck learning and implementing it.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Oracle will do just fine by zhrike · · Score: 5, Interesting

      they're (sic) sales people are legendary, and that's all that matters. IBM doesn't even bother giving IT a thought nowadays. It's all about the sales people. Oracle realized that ages ago.

      Nonsense. I work for a fairly large university in the NE. We were an virtually exclusive Sun hardware/Solaris shop. Due to Oracle's behavior, we've moved wholly away on both hardware and software since they acquired Sun. Good riddance. I also know of an enormous urban school district (where I used to work and still know many people) that has done the same. While this is only an N of 2, I doubt we're all that rare.

      While it is certainly true in some cases that sleazy snake oil salesmen snow decision makers, there are also organizations that will make informed decisions.

    2. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Here, here. VERY large Oracle hardware/Solaris OS shop (many thousands of systems) plus Exadata, Exalytics, etc. Done with them. Our two really good Oracle SEs (who really did most of the honest selling) recently left Oracle. They are not alone as the real talent appears to be on exodus as the pressure to sell anything regardless of fit becomes intolerable. In addition, they have become damn near adversarial with their loyal customer base in trying to jin up license undersubscription where it doesn't exist. Screw them. We've moved a great distance into the big-data realm anyway and Oracle is kind of joke their anyhoo (late comer...poopooed it for years...Exalytics blows). Anyway, I agree with you. Mark my words, their next step will be to fire their sales staff and replace them with attractive females (that's not tongue in cheek, I'm quite serious).

    3. Re:Oracle will do just fine by aodash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nonsense. I work for a fairly large university in the NE. We were an virtually exclusive Sun hardware/Solaris shop. Due to Oracle's behavior, we've moved wholly away on both hardware and software since they acquired Sun. Good riddance. I also know of an enormous urban school district (where I used to work and still know many people) that has done the same. While this is only an N of 2, I doubt we're all that rare.

      I work for a University out west, and our story is the same as yours. We had a large Sun/Solaris presense... not anymore.

    4. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here, here

      (sic).

    5. Re: Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Borland did it. It's how they are still able to sell StarTeam in a world of SVN/GIT and Atlassan

    6. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Aside from the fact that such changes cost obscene amounts of money and aren't an option for everyone, you're working in an academic environment. Such environments can make decisions in a more rational manner with more thought given to ethics and future considerations than just about any other environment out there. Corporations, however, will make decisions based solely upon the bottom line as decided by higher-up managers. This means that sales people will control what businesses use.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    7. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      they're (sic) sales people are legendary, and that's all that matters. IBM doesn't even bother giving IT a thought nowadays. It's all about the sales people. Oracle realized that ages ago.

      Nonsense. I work for a fairly large university in the NE. We were an virtually exclusive Sun hardware/Solaris shop. Due to Oracle's behavior, we've moved wholly away on both hardware and software since they acquired Sun. Good riddance. I also know of an enormous urban school district (where I used to work and still know many people) that has done the same. While this is only an N of 2, I doubt we're all that rare.

      While it is certainly true in some cases that sleazy snake oil salesmen snow decision makers, there are also organizations that will make informed decisions.

      Nonsense, I have no power at all with my last several clients which software I support and what some geeks on a website think to the CIO or MBA folks. Their response is support it or find another job!

      That is how the real world works. Sales move up and play a game of golf to the bosses bosses boss and make a decision from dinner afterwards after a few drinks to impair judgement.

      I am a cost and so are you who has no real value. Now the MBA guys ... they are the ones who are in charge of I.T!! The CEO thinks that so it is true.

      Regardless geeks who say silly things like no one would voluntarily use Oracle or Office when free alternatives are there do not get it. We do not buy Oracle. Our ticketing system, CRM, 3 million lines of custom web code, and whatever fucking links to it! We bash the MBA's for keeping IE 6 still around but it is about software and Oracle RDBMS is part of this platform and ecosystem. Perhaps not even the CIO had a choice in the manner?

      Maybe the VP of wharehousing bought some asset tracking software and then told the company oh go buy Oracle 11g so we can run this? Thanks

    8. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For all the complaints, the people that matter will still choose Oracle, and techies like you and me will get stuck learning and implementing it.

      Well, I am a techie at an ASP, and we have stopped using Solaris.

    9. Re:Oracle will do just fine by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here, here

      (sic).

      There, there.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    10. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You're not alone and the move is not confined to education.

      Us: "Hi, we'd like to move all of our hosts from 20 different patch levels of Solaris 8, 9 and 10 to just 3."
      Oracle: "That'll be $1 million in license fees please."
      Us: "No thanks."
      Us: "Hello Redhat, when can we book in half a dozen guys to do RHEL training?"

    11. Re: Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that is more a budget problem than anything else. You do get similar performance based on commodity x86 hardware plus Linux today.

    12. Re:Oracle will do just fine by msauve · · Score: 0

      Where, where?

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    13. Re: Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're party to that University's budget? No, you're just pulling things out of your butt.

    14. Re:Oracle will do just fine by jbolden · · Score: 2

      What planet do you live on? Oracle's sales people kinda suck and they are often underfunded to boot. Oracle sells because of features and depth. You can make a very good case,, that the areas where Oracle is ahead in 2013 are areas that 98% of the databases don't need and thus many companies should explore moving down market. But at least understand what you are arguing against. Oracle sells databases because they arguably make the best database for companies that have a dedicated staff of whose full time job is administering the database, with no application authoring responsibility.

      IBM's sales people are amazing absolutely.

    15. Re:Oracle will do just fine by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Actually I know of a few large corporations that have been looking for a way to get rid of Oracle for quite some time, both for the DB and for the OS. They just have slow product cycles, but no sales monkey will stop them, using Oracle products has just been to painful and to hugely expensive.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    16. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here, here.

    17. Re: Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Solaris 8 predates all versions of RHEL, why are you comparing its support costs to a current product?

      Sounds like typical IT rip and replace bullcrappery where the current neglected platform is blamed for all your problems and the solution is finding a new platform to neglect.

      My prediction: you'll still have RHEL 6 servers in production a decade from now and some youngster will be pitching a RedHat to Android Server 'upgrade'..

      You'll ask why don't we just do the proper maintenance on current systems and get shot down because Android Server is totally cooler than upgrading to RHEL 10. Truth.

    18. Re: Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry...could you repeat that?

    19. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they're (sic)[sic]

    20. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm working in one of those companies.
      Solaris is almost phased out. New systems will be Bsd, RedHat, Windows or Aix.
      Oracle: Only if there is no alternative (Huge SAP systems for just in time production, it's too depended on a Oracle backend that there is no avoiding it there.)
      DB2, PostgreSQL, MariaDB and MS SQL are the systems of choice now.
      MySQL: Nearly every instance is already replaced by MariaDB. Rest will follow before the year is out.

    21. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      There on the stair

    22. Re:Oracle will do just fine by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Having bean a lead developer in a company that was an Oracle reseller (pretty much a necessity in some markets), your characterization of Oracle is partly wrong; the part that isn't wrong is a gross oversimplification.

      I've visited some of the places where Oracle's developers work, and as you might expect I am (or rather *was*) pretty familiar with their product. Trust me, they pour an almost unthinkable amount of money into developing unique and useful technology. As you might suspect they don't do it out of the goodness of their heart; they don't even do it out of pride in the product. They do it in order to encourage large, institutional customers to make their systems dependent on features they can only get from Oracle.

      There's good and bad aspects to this lock-in strategy. Some of the things Oracle simply does better than anyone else, such as transaction isolation (in an ACID environment). When you develop and test on Oracle, you can pretty much proceed like the user has exclusive access to the database -- no worrying about things like dirty reads or the like (although the DBA had better make sure he's allocated enough rollback segments). It's nice, but not critical; but it also makes switching to a different RDBMS inconvenient. Oracle has gone farther down this path than you probably ever imagined, right up to creating something they call "virtual private databases" -- super-long duration wrapping transactions that persist across database connections and function something like a fork in a source control system. I've known *very* large data acquisition and management operations (e.g. a commercial vendor of worldwide street data for GIS) that depend on capabilities they can *only* get from Oracle.

      There are some things about Oracle I really like, like their transaction log management tools, which make it easy to find a past set of changes to your data and undo them with a wave of your magic wand, as if they never happened. For me that's a killer feature. On the other hand they've also done sleazy, bottom-feeder things to lock clients in, like making the way their JDBC drivers handle BLOBs incompatible with everyone else. They may have fixed that, but I don't think it was accidental this annoying incompatibility persisted so long.

      I've also visited Oracle sales offices, and know about how they handle "channel" sales. It's all very numbers driven. Oracle's corporate culture is that they don't care about the customer, once he's good and locked in. Oracle's licensing is very complex, it take days of study to figure out what you're allowed to do with your Oracle installation. If a customer makes a mistake he doesn't get any slack; he's got to pay up fast. On the flip side, if a customer accidentally spends five or ten times what he needs (very easy to do), or if he licenses his installation in a way that won't allow for the growth he needs to plan for (also very easy to do), nobody is going to tell him. He's a sucker, and they've got quarterly targets to meet. It flies in the face of most people's instincts to treat customers this way.

      Frankly, I find Oracle's corporate values detestable; but it's possible to work with them. They make sure it's *always* possible to work with them, because they want your money. But *don't* expect your Oracle salesman or reseller to take care of you, to look out for you, to warn you if you are about to make a mistake that's in their favor, or to have pity on you if such a mistake leaves you strapped over a barrel. Oracle's business strategy is *built* upon exploiting locked-in customers. You must approach a relationship with Oracle in a defensive posture -- as indeed you should with any agreement other than free software licenses.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    23. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Tamerlin · · Score: 1

      The hot chicks in suits approach has worked for Booz Allen Hamilton for quite a while. It does occasionally get them sued for breaching their contracts since they blatantly hire based on looks and not on qualifications, and it usually gets them paid. There's no reason that Oracle couldn't use the same strategy.

      Maybe we'll start seeing some competition there. At least it would add some pleasant distraction from the drudgery of mindless drivel that 99% of craporate IT work involves.

    24. Re:Oracle will do just fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I notice you wrote about features that were unique to Oracle's database, not features that were unique to SunOS^WSolaris. Their OS has some interesting features, but are many of them unique enough to justify sticking to their OS? I'd expect most users of the Oracle DB to be running on Linux nowadays.

    25. Re:Oracle will do just fine by durval · · Score: 1

      Mark my words, their next step will be to fire their sales staff and replace them with attractive females (that's not tongue in cheek, I'm quite serious).

      I hope you are right, as that would be a great improvement on the current situation...

      --
      Best Regards,
      Durval Menezes.
      I have never met a computer that didn't like me.
  7. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Normally i'm pretty pro-opensource and not really a fan of Oracle. In this case, it looks like they are right here. They do give Solaris for non-prod use for free (sans updates). If you want the updates you need to sign up for a maintenance contract. Flip side, they do douche moves all the time. Case in point I have an old SUN X4500 and wanted the drivers for it. Their website prevents you from downloading these without a "maintenance contract". On what, 8 year old hardware? You cant give a small download away on obsolete hardware?

  8. Oracle should focus on supporting their own stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Regarding Solaris support, Oracle does a pretty crappy job. Support has gone way downhill since the Sun days. Perhaps if they improved their own support they wouldn't need to worry about other companies. I mean, they do have the code, they should be able to provide the support better and less expensive than anybody else. They don't.

  9. Definition 3. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Sap:

    3. A foolish and gullible person.

    1. Re:Definition 3. by pla · · Score: 1

      Why did this get modded down?

      Single most insightful comment in the whole damned thread.

      You get what you pay for - And I prefer labors of love over cheap (or in this case, not so cheap) whores.

    2. Re:Definition 3. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why did this get modded down?

      Maybe because you are a dumb sucker (no offence intended) ?

      You get what you pay for

      Surely. Just pay me, a random guy, top dollar and you get your intelligences worth, being absolutily nothing, nada, zip.

      Only an ignoramous thinks that ammount of money payed equals quality of product.

      And I prefer labors of love over cheap whores.

      Well, as long as you think that love money you certainly deserve what you get (sorry, but you're definatily the sucker)

    3. Re:Definition 3. by pla · · Score: 1

      Well, as long as you think that love money you certainly deserve what you get

      Whoosh!

      I'd have to guess you don't have English as your first language, right? Poor spelling, poor grammar, no grasp of subtle linguistic devices such as metaphor?

      No offense intended, sucker. ;)

  10. /. title could mean the suit itsel is illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sometimes I get a bit tripped up by bad grammar, but the title of this slashdot article "Oracle Sues Companies It Says Provide Solaris OS Support In Illegal Manner" as well as the link text "Oracle is continuing to crack down on companies it claims are providing support services for its products in an illegal fashion" are both ambiguous as to where the illegality is.

    How I read it: "Oracle sues (companies it says provide Solaris OS support) in illegal manner." How I think it's supposed to read: "Oracle sues (companies it says provide Solaris OS support in illegal manner)."

    Very subtle difference in how it's read, very substantial difference in how it's interpreted. Either Oracle is filing an illegal lawsuit (which I doubt) or Oracle is filing a lawsuit against companies with illegal Solaris OS support services. Perhaps a better phrasing would be: "Oracle sues companies who allegedly offer illegal Solaris OS support."

    (Hm, maybe I should RTFA.)

    1. Re:/. title could mean the suit itsel is illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer to think the author was being efficient and meant both ways at the same time.

    2. Re:/. title could mean the suit itsel is illegal by abirdman · · Score: 1

      I understood the headline the first time I read it, but I am familiar with the company, the product, and the market, so maybe it was more obvious to me. I assumed the dangling "in an illegal fashion" was attached to the provision of Solaris Support, but you're right. It's ambiguous.

      --
      Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
  11. A weiner is you! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're suing people still willing to put up with their stuff.

  12. illumos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    The illumos project provides the basis for a Solaris-like operating system. Many distributions of illumos are now available, just like Linux. I think OmniOS and SmartOS are particularly worthy of your consideration, and ready for enterprise-scale production use, big data, DevOps, and all the other buzzwords.

    1. Re:illumos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can I do PRISM and Tempra with it?

    2. Re:illumos by bastafidli · · Score: 1

      Domain expired on 7/26/2013. What a coincidence :-)

  13. If only Snoracle would... by LoadWB · · Score: 1

    Other companies wouldn't have to provide Solaris support if Oracle would provide it. Oracle's support sales team is in the witness protection program.

  14. Try this one instead Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go after SCO. You'd feel like you were fighting something, and make us *nix users feel good. About you, and what you're about. Win-win. WHo cares that there's no connection?

  15. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    Testing drivers, and maintaining testable builds, of 8 year old hardware is quite expensive. I've certainly done so and helped partners do so, but charging real money for supporting such outdated software and hardware is both common and quite reasonable. They're high fees because you have to maintain a full tool suite: hardware, media, backups, patches, and expertise.

  16. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this is /. of course the headline is a load of bull...

    but the server providers are in the wrong.. regardless of how much someone may hate oracle or their products.. oracle is NOT THE BAD GUY in this case.

  17. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by wisnoskij · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But the hardware, software, and drivers were all created and tested 8 years ago.
    There is no reason to retest the same drivers over and over again, simply because time has elapsing in the interim.

    They built those back when SUN X4500 was brand new. And it cost them nothing to have the drivers sitting in storage for 8 years. Theoretically, someone even had a maintenance contract for that exact SUN X4500, and had those exact drivers on it. When you need a maintenance contract to even use your 8 year old hardware, you don't really own it. You are just leasing the right to operate it.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  18. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Find somebody with a Solaris support contract and ask them to download it for you. If I knew you, I'd do it for you (I manage a Solaris environment).

    Anyway, what Oracle is probably thinking is that making drivers and software for old platforms available for free would allow someone to continue running their old platform for a while longer. They would rather you either buy an expensive contract to keep your apps running or have you buy newer hardware. Greedy, yes, but not an entirely unreasonable motive.

    BTW - Cisco has been doing the same exact thing for years. If you have an ancient Cisco router that you picked up at a garage sale and want to load the latest IOS on there, you're SOL unless you have a buddy with a Cisco support agreement.

  19. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The "software" I wanted to download (SUNWhd) hasn't been updated since 04-Nov-2011. Its a small utility to "map" drives to their slots and offline drives.
    So, where is this "testing, building, etc" costs come from, storage space on their download servers?
    When they sold the gear (new) it was fairly pricey and people paid a small fortune for the maintenance.
    All things considered i cant see why they would "guard" this so much.

  20. DTrace? by interval1066 · · Score: 1

    So if as a consultant I install and show people how to use DTrace on Linux (its available at least for debian systems) and they pay me, would Oracle feel entitled to go after me?

    --
    Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    1. Re: DTrace? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have permission to use their trademarks? Are you distributing their software without permission?

      Why are you asking US, you should have this shit figured out already.

  21. Re:Oracle should focus on supporting their own stu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Oracle is more-or-less trying to kill Solaris. Of what new hardware they sell, it's extremely expensive and geared towards suckers with big wallets who don't comparison shop and/or are easily wooed by sales pitches. Otherwise, Oracle is more interested in milking more money out of legacy Solaris users who don't have time/resources to jump ship to x86/Linux (i.e. $50,000/year for maintenance on current Solaris environment vs. $500,000+ to code/port existing applications/buy new solution for Linux). They have no interest in providing "good" support simply because anyone who is STILL using Solaris today is probably doing so for the reason I stated.

    People will get off of Solaris eventually, but they have quite a number of years left in which they can greedily milk money away from their install base until Solaris becomes unprofitable to sustain.

  22. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by asmkm22 · · Score: 1

    He said nothing about needing updated drivers for the latest and greatest hardware. He just wants to download the stuff from 8 years ago.

  23. When I was in university by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was in university, we used Sparc 1+'s (ick) which my 66 MHz Intel '486 blew out of the water, but they had Solaris, (while I ran Linux). Linux was not seen as impressive enough back then, so they went with what they did. Solaris was the selling point, not the slug-like hardware. I am very glad to see that they ditched this stuff a long time ago. Oracle have done an outstanding job pissing Solaris customers off. I didn't get that big a woodie over Solaris, although I did write software (CS TCP/IP networking labs) that were reasonably cross platform between Solaris and Linux (at the time). Change the paths of two libraries and everything compiles and runs the same (I got a few bonus marks for making the networking software cross/OS). I know there are a few goodies that a few people like in Solaris that aren't in Linux, but they are few, there is dwindling support for Solaris, there are no updates for Solaris, and there is the evil Oracle ready to sue the crap out of anyone using it. Just dump it, Oracle too, and use something else.

    1. Re:When I was in university by mrbester · · Score: 1

      I have fond memories of using the Sparc 4s and 20s at university. You couldn't pry me off them to use the 386s.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
  24. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

    Only if you are offering new versions of stuff or offering support of new stuff. The hardware certainly hasn't changed, and as long as you are only offering support/updates for the version of the OS that was current at the time, then the patches/updates/etc. all still work fine.

    Now, if someone is using old hardware with newest releases of software, I see a problem with it working, and yes, it would cost some company money to support it - someone would need to write the code or modify the existing. But even then, hardware obsolescence may take care of the issue for you. Windows 7 doesn't need drivers or firmware for a 3com network card plugged into a MCA slot 'cause no computer with MCA slots is capable of running any version of Windows... they could barely crawl with Windows 2.0.

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
  25. Oracle being Oracle, but dumb. by BookRead · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is Oracle's behavior legal? Yes. Are the support companies in the wrong? Yes. Oracle owns Solaris and gets to set the rules. Is this a smart strategy for Solaris or Oracle? I doubt it. My company was a long term Sun/Solaris customer but when Oracle took over they locked down support and pretty much everything in the Solaris community and started attempting to extract as much cash as they could from us. We weren't the biggest customer but we were a pretty good customer and we weren't a tiny little startup either. Oracle did an excellent job of convincing my management to move to Windows and open source solutions. We stay as far away from Oracle as we can these days. Oracle knows the cost of everything but not the value of a community to support them.

    1. Re:Oracle being Oracle, but dumb. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Is Oracle's behavior legal? Yes. Are the support companies in the wrong? Yes.

      Your answer to the first question is most likely correct (although not necessarily). The answer to the second question is not so clear cut. At least one of the support companies claims that their clients have legal licenses and credentials to download the updates and that they are merely acting as their clients' agent in doing the download. I have come across several references (including overheard conversations by colleagues responsible for internal support of Oracle products at a previous employer) that suggest that in addition to the license fee for updates Oracle charges customers who need support installing those updates. If that is the case, Oracle may be suing these support companies because, while clients of the support companies have paid for the license to download the updates, Oracle wants them to pay Oracle for the support they need to install those updates without disrupting their ongoing operations. Considering that Oracle's approach seems to be "pay us huge sum of money per hour while our guy figures out how your database is configured (since we can't be bothered to assign the same guy to your account every time you need to update) and installs the update, which will probably take several days since the first couple of times he will break your database," it is no surprise that companies would rather hire a third party to handle this (a third party that carefully documents how the database is used and configures the update on a test server before rolling it out to production).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:Oracle being Oracle, but dumb. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least one of the support companies claims that their clients have legal licenses and credentials to download the updates and that they are merely acting as their clients' agent in doing the download.

      That can be a smokescreen. In the Oracle world, license for a software do not entitle to upgrades or patches, and neither does access to the download of the upgrades.

      Sun Microsystems had that in place since 2005 - the conditions for sunsolve, which now no longer exists, allowed you to download pretty much all patches, but you were legally restricted to install only the patches where you had a corresponding support agreement.

  26. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by abirdman · · Score: 1

    No, the fees are high because it costs a lot to keep Larry Ellison in jets and new Pacific islands. Oracle is a rapacious, money-gobbling machine of a company. Every upgrade, bug fix, OS update, dev or test server costs large money. If you run the database on a VM (besides the one Oracle owns), you have to license for every processor on the VM server, even if your DB only uses one core. They send actual auditors to your site to check your license compliance. They like to "partner" with their customers, such that the more money you make, the more you pay Oracle corporation-- like privatizing taxes.

    Their sales force speaks a strange language. I dare you to find out what a copy of Weblogic (oh wait, I mean Fusion Middleware), BI (oh, no that's Discoverer), and a database (errr... 11g? 12c?) will cost, or to come up with how many cores/ processors/ CPU's there are in your server, and which have to be licensed. It's basically gangster language. And once you acquire some Oracle products, you're locked in. Update a server? ka-ching! Operating system update? ka-ching. Upgrading Weblogic forced you into upgrading app server? ka-ching. Adding a service pack to your windows server? ka-ching. Windows update broke the 64 bit keys that your old copy of Enterprise Manager tries to load in the browser? ka-ching.

    I like their stuff, but I very much hate their business model.

    --
    Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
  27. Common issue in the IT service industry by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    Oh you want that installed? That will be X dollars for the license... just me pirate that and pocket the licensing fee as profit.

    Its sadly very common.

    Best way to stop it is to have a tighter relationship between developers and support companies. Give the support companies some sort of distributor/reseller price break so they can make SOMETHING on the sale. And ideally build some tracking into the whole process such that if some pirated copies show up it leads directly back to the offending company.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:Common issue in the IT service industry by EmperorArthur · · Score: 1

      Except if you RTFA it's not that simple. These support companies are using the login credentials of their customers to download the updates for their customers. So, they're acting as the end user's agents when doing all this. They even have the paperwork to prove it.

      This lawsuit would be the same as Red Hat suing Linux support companies because their techs used `yum update`. It only makes sense in a weird twisted world of copyright. Even then, it's mainly just corporate bullying. An injunction would mean they can't patch any client's systems. From a business standpoint they lose then and there. Just like the US did to Megaupload.

      --
      So lets pretend that we've just completed writing this code, as opposed to having just completed sabotaging it -Altera
    2. Re:Common issue in the IT service industry by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      You missed the bit where I said they should give the support companies a discount on purchases. Then you associate the ID numbers of those discounted products with the company that facilitated the transaction.

      The point would be to incentive running purchases through support companies and allow the support companies a legitimate way to eat a little of the profits.

      Its an entirely fair place for a support company to take profits because after all they're frequently recommending the products in the first place. Why shouldn't they get a percentage of sales?

      That gives you the ability to track the piracy better AND reduces the incentive to pirate by giving the support companies a legitimate way take some profit off the sale.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    3. Re:Common issue in the IT service industry by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Except you seem to have missed the part where the support companies are claiming that their clients have paid for the license for the update, so they are claiming that they are not pirating the update.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    4. Re:Common issue in the IT service industry by abirdman · · Score: 1

      As far as I know, Oracle treats their 3rd party support companies as badly as they treat their customers. They charge full price for all their products, even if it's used in education or software development. The software is readily available online (once you sign up), but be prepared to pay up if the Oracle police visit. Every Oracle support company I've worked with do their own audits. If they work with a customer who is infringing, Oracle partly blames them, their 3rd party consultants. Larry wants every part of his company to gobble at money like piranhas. The tech glow of SUN and Oracle (still an excellent database) is completely eclipsed by the ravenous capitalism his company practices. There's no pleasure left working with them, and I'll never recommend that company again.

      Oracle is like herpes: You never get rid of it completely, it pops up in the worst situations, and it is never a pleasure to work with. As if they're continually trying to gyp you out of something, waiting for a mistake, or letting your guard down, or having a failed backup, then WHAM! You gotta pay to get out of trouble. Fie on them all!.Sail on, Larry!

      --
      Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
    5. Re:Common issue in the IT service industry by EmperorArthur · · Score: 1

      Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.

      Nice sig. So sad, yet so true.

      --
      So lets pretend that we've just completed writing this code, as opposed to having just completed sabotaging it -Altera
    6. Re:Common issue in the IT service industry by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Then they're going to get pirated mercilessly and no amount of legal action will stop it.

      1. You need free educational licenses or the only professionals in your software will come out of places where piracy is so rampant that its practiced BY universities. Go to india or pakistan. Its hilarious.

      2. You need to reward support companies that support your product. They don't have to specialize in it. They can specialize in something else. If they provide support for your product they also effectively encourage its use. They are also often the organizations that recommend various products. So giving them a percentage of sales is reasonable. License them as resellers.

      3. License tracking needs to have as much information as possible so that when you are dealing with infringers despite doing 1 and 2... you can nail them with impunity.

      4. Some consideration should be paid to exposing parts of the license information to the internet. Possibly some sort of two factor ID system like the difference between your license plate and your driver's license. Put a license plate on the software so that companies like Oracle can check the authenticity of a software package remotely without even informing anyone. But also have it so that the information they get can't be used against the company by anyone but oracle and only for authentication purposes. I know some people are going to get upset about this provision. But part of the reason Oracle gets so harsh on this matter is that its actually very hard for them to track anything down and they get very little cooperation from the police. So it makes sense if the system is very easy to audit.

      5. Consider making the support companies part of Oracle's auditing procedure. Licensed resellers would be required while doing service to check the authenticity of the software. Then they would be required to either provide a properly licensed copy of the software OR report the violation to Oracle. Again, I know a lot of people are going to have a problem with this...

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  28. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But the hardware, software, and drivers were all created and tested 8 years ago.
    There is no reason to retest the same drivers over and over again, simply because time has elapsing in the interim.

    Unless you do a kernel update of some kind which could add unexpected bugs that interact with drivers and firmware/hardware in bad ways. Or there's an existing bug in the drivers or firmware but it hasn't been triggered yet, and it could happen because of some otherwise innocuous change in a patch.

    Read about the 1990 AT&T 4ESS outage about simple changes can break things. A small C coding mistake in which a "break" broke out out of a "switch" statement instead of an "if" clause caused a nation-wide outage for nine hours.

    If any changes/updates are made the entire stack needs to be re-tested. And even then there are no guarantees.

  29. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by hjf · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sounds a lot like Cisco.

    Me: Hi Mr. Cisco, I need a Catalyst 4500, how much is it?

    Cisco: Sure, fill in this form, send a copy of your last quarterly report, bank statements, and a letter of recommendation from some of your customers, and a sales executive will contact you.

    Me: But i only want a switch?

    Cisco: Please, we need that information.

    Me: Okay...

    (weeks later)

    Cisco: HI THIS IS COCAINE JOE YOUR OVER ENTHUSIAST ACCOUNT EXECUTIVE, THE PRICE FOR THE CISCO CRS YOU ORDERED IS $3M AND A SUPPORT CONTRACT OF $5M

    Me: Hey but I only asked for the price of a Catalyst 4500

    Cisco: YES BUT WE HAVE DETERMINED IT WILL NOT MEET YOUR COMPANY'S REQUIREMENTS SO IN ORDER TO SUPPORT YOU WE HAVE TO SELL YOU OUR LATEST AND GREATEST AND MORE EXPENSIVE!!!

    Me: never mind, I'll find another vendor.

    I especially love it when sales people try to sell you a $50,000 solution for a small business and claim that TCO is always lower. It seems, the higher the up-front cost, the lower the TCO is!

  30. WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Caldera Group, i.e. SCO lost a huge battle on these same reasons!

    Why would Lar Bo want to 'Re-Energize' his Light-Dick to Conquer and Slay the D.C. Patent Kingdom?

    ???!!!

  31. Re: Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new v by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sounds just like the cry for archived versions of iOS apps to support older devices. ... at no cost ...

    And it's just as ridiculous. If you wanted to keep a copy of the vintage 2008 version of your systems drivers, maybe you should have burned it to a CD.

  32. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by gstoddart · · Score: 2

    There is no reason to retest the same drivers over and over again

    If you're rolling out changes to the OS, you have to test, no? So I'm pretty sure that if they do have any updates, they do need to do testing. The drivers may have been written 8 years ago, but the other changes they're making are new and still need to work.

    You are just leasing the right to operate it.

    That is exactly Oracle's business model these days. They locked down even the documentation unless you have a support contract.

    Oracle will only sell you something with a ridiculous support contract, and they won't give you anything for Solaris without one.

    There's a reason I was once told by an Oracle consultant that it stands for "One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison".

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  33. Give a guy a break. by msauve · · Score: 1

    How will Larry buy new shoes if he doesn't have this revenue stream?

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:Give a guy a break. by gagol · · Score: 1

      Larry lives on borrowed money against the value of its share...

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
  34. I'm not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Recent versions of Java won't run the Java applet some versions of Sun Global Desktop present to the browser. Oracle's solution is to update SGD, which requires an expensive support contract. It feels like legalize extortion. Sure old versions of Java work, but using old versions of Java is just asking for malware. It is kind of sad, Solaris has some features and tools I like. I guess in the future I will hope my org buys nothing from Oracle. Posting anonymously because I don't want anyone from work knowing my slashdot user name. Putting on foil hat now...

  35. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Princeofcups · · Score: 1, Insightful

    But the hardware, software, and drivers were all created and tested 8 years ago.
    There is no reason to retest the same drivers over and over again, simply because time has elapsing in the interim.

    They built those back when SUN X4500 was brand new. And it cost them nothing to have the drivers sitting in storage for 8 years. Theoretically, someone even had a maintenance contract for that exact SUN X4500, and had those exact drivers on it. When you need a maintenance contract to even use your 8 year old hardware, you don't really own it. You are just leasing the right to operate it.

    OK, more mod ups for people who have no idea what they are talking about. Sigh. There is nothing stopping you from running unsupported. We have several V490 in production for a legacy app and a few spares. When something breaks, we swap as needed. There are no OS updates for our version of Solaris, so we just live with it. You see, this isn't Windows where you need constant security patches and updates. It's a rock solid OS, and rock solid hardware. The diagnostics can tell me exactly what is misbehaving, even when the system stays up and keeps running. Windows admins just don't get this.

    --
    The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
  36. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est? I disagree. by mmell · · Score: 3, Interesting
    No more than they tried to kill off MySQL or OpenOffice. Okay, so they're not actively trying to make any of these things go (please spare me the flames to the contrary - I'd rather believe my own eyes TYVM), but let's remember two things: 1) Oracle OWNS Solaris and the SPARC architecture - they were never free to begin with, they have always been owned, and 2) Oracle is a DATABASE company. OS/free/end-user software was never their core and center.

    Now, is this a wise move on their part? Unfortunately, yes. Evil on a par with MicroSoft, International Business Machines and Hewlett-Packard, but not unwise. You don't like it? Neither do I - which I why I stopped actively marketing my Solaris 2.4/2.5/2.6/8/10 skills some time ago. Nowadays when I look for work I look for an incredibly popular flavor of Linux which has a two-word name starting with "R". Still can't argue with their logic - they spend money and time to create software which they intend to sell at a profit. They can't very well make money while letting someone else undercut them with their own product now, can they?

    Just a final point - Oracle (and Sun before them) are in business. Their business model is the proprietary software sales/support model. It has worked, it is working and as far as they can tell it will continue to work.

    Now, their absolutely worthless technical support combined with their arrogance - these are likely to kill Solaris and SPARC. Not their business model (which is actually pretty much par for the course for the large IT software providers in the game), but their widely perceived inability to provide quick, accurate correct support for their existing (non-database) products.

  37. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

    > Oracle is a rapacious, money-gobbling machine of a company.

    No, they're a vast multi-level marketing scheme that happens to sell a database or two as a side venture, and recently bought a product (Java) that doesn't require an army of highly-paid consultants who have to tithe 20% of their income to them in return for mandatory certifications and licensing just to keep it running.

    The big "gotcha" with Java is that Sun's license for Java was always pretty nasty, but they generally looked the other way and ignored all but the most egregious violations of it unless you were trying to use it in embedded devices. Oracle, in contrast, intends to enforce it to the letter. The only consolation prize with Java is the fact that most of Oracle's legal leverage over OpenJDK comes from patents rather than copyright, and software patents -- while questionable in most cases -- at least have the benefit of not being de-facto eternal & endlessly extended every time Steamboat Willie is at risk of becoming public domain. So in another 10-12 years, we'll be able to unambiguously do anything we like with Java, as long as it's cleanroom-engineered and called "Bali" or "Sumatra" (the islands flanking "Java").

  38. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    And all that's fine. But don't be upset when a third party vendor is selling front you the support with the latest patches, and it turns out they're just selling ou copies of _their_ licensed support from Sun, or Oracle. I've had vendors pull that, and get caught, and had to explain to my purchasing department to cancel the check.

  39. FOSS developer here. Oracle's code, not mine by raymorris · · Score: 2

    Same here. I support open source, I helped write a lot of it. I wrote one package from scratch that was distributed with Solaris. I wouldn't BUY their product, but that means I won't USE it. I wouldn't steal it, as these defendants allegedly did.

    I wish Oracle released all of their stuff as open source, but they don't. I expect them to respect the license on my software (GPL), and people should respect their license.

  40. What goes around, comes around by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Used to be you could just get at least the security updates, but they made that progressively harder and more expensive. This has been a slow process (hence their reference to "long practice") but some of us remember there was a difference once.

    Though oracle does some seriously sneaky mooching off of redhat, so I don't really care for their crying foul here. They've given the example and the reason. In fact, it's oracle so I don't give a flying fsck at all.

  41. Loose/Loose for all by bobthesungeek76036 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I used to work for the Big-O. Bottom-line is king there. That's why I had to quit. I understand the legalise of this situation. However, you have a bunch of folks out there still running Solaris w/o maintenance contracts. And if they don't update the OS with patches, they are vunerable to security hacks which hurts everyone in the long run. I wish Oracle would let folks update their software w/o contracts but that doesn't help the bottom-line and we all suffer for it....

    --
    Karma: Bad
    1. Re:Loose/Loose for all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "lose/lose", you mean. "loose" is a word with completely different meaning.

  42. GIve it time by hurwak-feg · · Score: 0

    Oracle is profitable now, but I wouldn't be surprised if they lose their relevance in the next 10 years. At a certain point, even the PHBs won't be able to justify the costs. Does anyone know if they provide security updates without a support contract? If they don't, I would be willing to bet that it will bite them in the ass soon. While I don't know if I would call it extortion like the AC a few posts up, it is pretty close to it.

    1. Re:GIve it time by hurwak-feg · · Score: 1

      Why did I get modded down as a troll? I really do think that some of their practices are going to bite them in the ass.

  43. Re:Yes, it was written. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm not the one who pointed it out, but I guess the "expression" should be "hear, hear". "Here, here" is however, as you point out quite indicative; Only usually what it indicates is that someone got it wrong.

  44. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

    No, this is simply about oracle charging an AMC because the customer did the equivalent of losing the installation CDs

  45. Re: Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new v by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

    Well yes, the point is that Oracle is charging an AMC for the equivalent of the customer losing their install CDs. Nothing illegal, but stuff to be aware of.

    Also nothing like the iOS comparison you made

  46. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est? I disagree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Now, their absolutely worthless technical support combined with their arrogance - these are likely to kill Solaris and SPARC.

    As a long time Sparc/SunOS/Solaris fan, it pains me to say this, but I think that Solaris and Sparc are what is going to kill Solaris and Sparc.

    In every case where we have migrated from mega-buck, dedicated Solaris on Sparc servers to Linux VMs on still high-end but not quite as many mega-bucks x86 hardware we have seen drastically increased performance, greatly simplified administration, and big reductions in call volume for the help desk folks.

    Unless you have a need for one of the niche areas where Solaris still provides solid advantages (and those are becoming fewer and fewer), it's time to move on.

  47. Re:Yes, it was written. by RabidReindeer · · Score: 0

    I'm not the one who pointed it out, but I guess the "expression" should be "hear, hear". "Here, here" is however, as you point out quite indicative; Only usually what it indicates is that someone got it wrong.

    There, there.

    No, "here" is a misuse of a homonym. Who cares where you are? The correct expression is "Hear", as in "Hear this!". Then again, you also "gin up", not "jin up". I don't know the origin of that one, but considering the topic, I'd definitely add more liquor.

  48. Wave Oracle bye bye by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wherever you work and are fed up of Oracle , just drop the shit.There are alternatives to their crap.Enough is enough.
    Imagine if Microsoft was to do the same and charge for updates .. i mean that in itself is totally unacceptable.
    Vulnerabilities are defects in the product. They have to be fixed for free. If there's a car with a brake problem on the market the manufacturer has to fix their shit for free to the customer. Same for software . If a vuln can jeapardise millions of accounts and potentially cost hundreds of millions to banks or credit card companies , beleive me there will be some finger pointing. Oracle is simply milking the users for every penny providing with flawed software and then charging for the priviledge of " having your brakes fixed. Totally Oracle ( ridiculous )
    Toss their garbage in the bin and get on the alternatives.
     

    1. Re:Wave Oracle bye bye by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vulnerabilities are defects in the product. They have to be fixed for free.

      This isn't true for Oracle unless you can get a court to say so.

  49. You mean they actually gave support? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because we sure as hell pay a lot of money to Oracle, but don't have very much to show for it.

    1. Re:You mean they actually gave support? by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Because we sure as hell pay a lot of money to Oracle, but don't have very much to show for it.

      To be fair we pay a hell of a lot to Oracle, their products are not the best but one thing we can say is we do get excellent support. We are on the gold support contract = millions per year though.

  50. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    But that is not the issue here. The issue mentioned a few comments up is that someone cannot even get an 8 year old driver for his 8 year old hardware.

    He is not so much worried about the bleeding edge, he just wants his hardware to run.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  51. Down-market is Oracle too by tepples · · Score: 1

    the areas where Oracle is ahead in 2013 are areas that 98% of the databases don't need and thus many companies should explore moving down market.

    Except down-market is Oracle too. Oracle owns MySQL and Berkeley DB.

    1. Re:Down-market is Oracle too by hedronist · · Score: 1

      Yes, Larry's minions may have their hands on the old MySQL code, but there's this little project called MariaDB that is MySQL++++. It is a direct, bit-for-bit drop-in, and it's faster and has more features and they even do bug fixes for (gasp!) free. Admittedly it's run by a guy who probably doesn't know that much about MySQL, but he seems to be muddling through.

      Oh, and there's a company called Percona that actually does support for MariaDB, adds features, and then feeds them back to the MariaDB community, but that's clearly an unsustainable model.

      There are also a few people out there who would suggest that moving "downmarket" from Oracle to Postgres will actually feel like upmarket. And it's supported by professional groups on six continents.

    2. Re:Down-market is Oracle too by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I meant Oracle DB not Oracle Inc in that sentence. Certainly Oracle is a player to some extent down market though that's not really the focus of the sales team per the GP's point.

  52. Re:Yes, it was written. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    "Here, here." Is valid.

    True.

    It is indicative of agreement.

    False. You are thinking of "Hear, hear".

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  53. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oracle employee here. As usual, "I work for Oracle, but I do not speak for Oracle" etc. etc.

    Let me explain a few things to you folks. Oracle are not especially good. Nor are they especially evil.

    Oracle exist for one reason, and reason only--to make money. For Oracle, nothing else matters.

    The most important folks at Oracle are the MBAs and the lawyers. They basically run the company.

    They can and will explore and take advantage of any and every legal avenue for generating revenue that they can come up with.

    People taking stuff for free that legally they should be paying for does not generate revenue. Therefore, it is not tolerated.

    Period. End of story.

  54. Re:Yes, it was written. by popo · · Score: 1
    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
  55. Re:Yes, it was written. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

    Ignorant it is.

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  56. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    I especially love it when sales people try to sell you a $50,000 solution for a small business and claim that TCO is always lower. It seems, the higher the up-front cost, the lower the TCO is!

    Sounds a lot like the Indian call centre employees calling on behalf of telcos.

    "Sir I just want to save you money on your phone bill."
    "But you're trying to sign me up for a more expensive plan."
    "Yes but you get a new phone with more included value."

  57. Common practice... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    3rd party companies providing support for a vendor's hardware/software is incredibly common in this industry. I work for a very large enterprise storage company, and a good chunk of the customers for our training classes are from these professional support companies. Customer or reseller buys our storage, they either buy a support contract from us or someone else.

  58. Ellison is a big jerk! by bbsalem · · Score: 1

    God, I have never liked Larry Ellison!

    I worked at Sun from 1997 to 2004. and interviewed at Oracle at Redwood Shores in 1993, and I describe my experience as "leaving a bad taste in my mouth", feeling that the work environment was chintzy. Events subsequent have confirmed my feelings that Ellison and Oracle, were bad people to work for.

    As for Solaris, its niche is big servers, serving Big Data, and if you are a big business, a big financial institution, you will shut up and pay whatever Ellison extorts from you. These guys were Sun's customers and they were largely responsible for mismanagement of markets and the meltdown of 2008 and the problems they created have not been fixed; the Congress has evaded its duty to repair this broken system, driven by bogus mathematics. Screw them all!

    As for the rest of us with more usual requirements, there is not need for Solaris as opposed to Linux, and that became obvious to Sun in about 2003. By then Intel servers were powerful enough to meet mid-sized needs with Linux, no need for Solaris. Since Sun short changed X86 Solaris, even not supporting it for a time, they lost any chance of getting a piece of the consumer market that Steve Jobs was able to exploit. That left Sun dependent on the Big Data, Big Iron people who had to cut their expenditures during the Great Recession, which they helped cause. At the same time Sun put more resources into Java, trying to play catch-up with in the IDE market. Sun lost on both fronts and was bought by Ellison.

    Java is legacy, and now there are much better OO alternatives because of the JIT processing and the weaker enforcement of type, but also because Sun did not do a good job designing the class libraries. It has gone the way of PL/1 and now languages like python are much better OO implementations, and Javascript has become a much better client language in the browser, largely because of the frameworks models that rely on lambda functions. Even if the ACM front end for Java had been the standard instead of the Sun Class Libraries, Java would have been a much better language. I think that because of the corporate appeal that Sun wrote the libraries with lots of dross, security via obfescation.

    My last experience at Sun was telling. I knew system administration and legacy compilers. I was the mid-teir support for the Fortran Compiler and did other support for gcc. I was asked to change my focus to java and to provide support for Netbeans then under development. I found this to be very challenging for me because of my vision disability. The camel text and the poor formatting of the debugging stream made it very hard for me to do my job, and even though Sun paid some lip service to assessability it was not adequate and finally a lippy manager caused me to leave. Later a visually impaired system admin I met flat out said that Java was not accessable. My subsequent experience was that by the time they were stable products eclipse and netbeans had improved font size and debugging info. I seems that for Java, Eclipse has become more widely used and I wonder if Netbeans is even still around. Maybe Ellison's greed has forced people to use Eclipse instead of Netbeans. It seems like the same is the case for Solaris.

  59. As a customer of Sun since the beginning... by Arrogant-Bastard · · Score: 1

    ...I'm done. It's a pity, really; for all their misteps, Sun did some interesting, useful, innovative things. And during those parts of my career when I was working in education, they were generous with hardware, software, and time -- even when it wasn't clear that it would have a short-term benefit for Sun. They knew that down the road, we'd remember, and we'd spec their gear in proposals -- and we did.

    But now? I've spent the last year excising Oracle products. I've decomissioned and sold off hardware, I've deinstalled software, I've cancelled support contract after support contract, I've done everything possible to remove all traces of Oracle from the operation. One might think that Oracle would care that a 30-year customer is leaving...but they don't. One might think Oracle would care that a multi-million dollar account is leaving...but they don't. One might think Oracle would care that they are poisoning the well (since I'm teaching everyone who works for me to avoid them, and why)...but they don't.

    Oracle is well on its way to destroying, in a few short years, the work of decades.

    They don't care.

  60. Re:Slowaris Delenda Est? I disagree. by avatar139 · · Score: 1

    1) Oracle OWNS Solaris and the SPARC architecture - they were never free to begin with, they have always been owned,

    Um, actually no they don't. I used to work in the offices of the non-profit that owns to the rights to SPARC hardware. It's an organization called SPARC International, Inc. and they make money off of licensing the trademark. If you pay up enough, your company can have a seat on the executive board of the organization, along with Oracle, Fujitsu amongst several others.

    --
    I'm honest enough to admit I lie to myself.
  61. Re:Oracle claims the defendants are distrib new ve by tibit · · Score: 1

    New support agreements for low-end Cisco gear are fairly cheap. I'd say $300-$500 is what you should budget.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.