Slashdot Mirror
Tim Cook May Not Know Why, But Samsung Is Winning in China
An anonymous reader writes with this interesting snippet about the state of mobile tech in China: "Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook believes that 'over the arc of time' China is a huge opportunity for his pathbreaking company. But time looks to be on the side of rival Samsung Electronics, which has been around far longer and penetrated much deeper into the world's most populous country. Apple this week said its revenue in Greater China, which also includes Hong Kong and Taiwan, slumped 43 per cent to $4.65 billion from the previous quarter. That was also 14 per cent lower from the year-ago quarter. Sales were weighed down by a sharp drop in revenues from Hong Kong. "It's not totally clear why that occurred," Cook said on a conference call with analysts. Neither is it totally clear what Apple's strategy is to deal with Samsung – not to mention a host of smaller, nimbler Chinese challengers."
actually it is, Tim. The Chinese want cheaper phones, and they want phones you can put pirated warez on. Apple doesn't score well in either category.
I live in HK and can pretty much afford any phone. I use Android base phone. More freedom, more options and customisation features and plenty of Android devices to chose from. Most HK people are smart enough to use Android. Hence, Android phones win over here.
There's a shift in China. Some foreign goods/brands remain as status symbols, but some are losing their luster.
The U.S. has been acting like a bigger dick than usual lately. Chinese consumers would rather not buy American (or Japanese) brands when there's a choice. It doesn't matter that the dick's product are made in China.
That's not my opinion, so don't get mad at me. That's what I was told when I was there last month.
Chinese people buy these things, too. I've been there and seen it done.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
It's an asian company. While they might hate Koreans, they hate US people even more.
I don't know where you get this. In my experiences, the Chinese like US people, and Korean dramas are popular in China.
Also, I'm not sure how a pressure sensitive stylus makes any difference for writing Asian languages........I haven't found any difficulty writing Chinese on an iPhone.....
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
There are two reasons why people I know (myself included) have not bought Apple products.
1. Give us a bigger screen. My wife loves her iPhone and is looking at upgrading to whatever comes next, but after using my Galaxy S3 she would rather lose her familiarity with iOS (and all the apps she has paid for) to get a screen she can actually read.
2. Don't charge the $200 Apple premium. After being dicked around by Telcos, more and more people are buying their phones outright. It's not until you do this, that you suddenly see that an Apple iPhone is over $200 more expensive for a product (like the Galaxy S4, or the HTC One) which is better specced, but far cheaper.
People buying outright is also the same reason people aren't upgrading as much any more. You used to get a new phone every 2 years for free on some contracts, but with the premium commonly being charged people are happy to hold on for three/four years - or until their phone goes bang.
Not putting iOS 7 onto 3GS models is a smart move - it stops all those laggards from upgrading their OS, and forces them to start upgrading their hardware.
Uh, weird spastic response there guy.
Regardless of any outside comparisons a 43% revenue drop in a region as populous as greater china is an eyebrow raiser. Investors aren't lure by how much you make, it's by how much you GROW and the growing chinese middle class is a tasty market to gain traction in. Being shown to be slipping in that market is not the end of the world, but it is definitely significant when it is a market where you previously had more significant presence.
Granted this isn't a sudden panic worthy event but it is still news, and important news at that to those watching the world markets.
The average citizen ins't a market. Chinese with incomes above a certain level are the market, and that market is still growing.
After tens of wars US has waged against Asian countries, Asian like American? As an Asian I almost puked.
Do you understand that 'Asian' is not the same as 'Chinese?' Apparently not.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
People deride copying as a dirty word.
Copying is how we humans learn, what you just said is what people used to say of Japanese industry in the 60s.
China has risen from a rural backwards society in the 70s to a society that can manufacture pretty much any high tech stuff you care to mention.
But if sprouting that quasi racist nonsense gives you some comfort all the power to you.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Yep, better product, better price and you can install Cyanogen/AOSP to clear any backdoors. With Apple products you're stuck with your OS spying on you.
why do you think cyan/aosp isn't spying on you? And what about all the malicious apps? if i lived in china, home of the filthy filthy app store, I'd want some protection.
...ok not America :)...but that is the point. Apples market share is the lowest in years sitting at 13% http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24239313 To focus on a market(admittedly a massive market) they always did bad is ridiculous. Russia's three major mobile phone operators have halted iPhone sales recently.
Even if they offered a cheaper iPhone, they still wouldn't be able to install pirated software on it. It's beyond second nature there...it's almost a pathological need to install unlicensed software. We have an off-shore team in China and we realized that they were using pirated versions of Windows, Office and a whole host of other very reasonably-priced applications, most of which we had enterprise-wide licenses for. We asked them to go through our IT department to get legitimate versions and they agreed. Six months later, we discovered that they've yet to request a single install and are still installing new pirated software. The whole concept of buying software seems alien to them.
You're mixing up "casing shininess" and "quality". I have a $200 cheap Chinese phone and a $600 (at the time) Galaxy Note (v1), and there's no doubt which is higher quality. The Samsung has a much better screen, camera, sound, buttons, touch reactivity and precision, extra apps. Both are wrapped in plastic though. Both do the job, though.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
The irony is, Samsung phones aren't marketed as "special" as iPhones, and that's why the Samsung phones are winning.
To elaborate:
Any relatively affluent Chinese national who's had the privilege of making a trip to the states and is returning to the motherland will most likely have a top-of-the-line Samsonite suitcase full of Coach purses and brand new unlocked apple iPhone 5's (and maybe a couple of iPads), but how many Samsung products will they be bringing? Likely none.
The reason for this is that when quality is an issue, the Chinese have this adamant belief that anything created in China that is exported to be sold to Americans is, without question, of higher quality than the same item were it sold to Chinese consumers. This includes the same iPhone, made in the same factory, by the same people, the "better" one being shipped overseas.
That's why in the mainland, the spoiled middle-class children (starting at around middle school) with re-imported U.S. iPhones will actually look down on those who are using a "domestic" iPhone.
The fact that Samsung has been a major player in Chinese appliances still helps to set it apart from domestic (to China) brands such as Huawei in terms of overall quality, but because Samsung phones are marketed as largely being a different alternative to Apple phones (in terms of features, screen size, etc.), there's less of a need to re-import that je ne sais quoi from the U.S.
But Apple? Those phones are claiming to be the epitome of fit-and-finish, and that's just shooting themselves in the foot in this case.
I have a Chinese (LAVA-branded) Android tablet - it was a freebie from a vendor because I order so much from him (several years we were their largest account). He asked me for feedback on it after I had it for a few weeks. I felt bad but had not much good to say about it. It came with the Netflix preloaded (in their official firmware) and the Netflix app would not load movies. No update was available from Netflix at the time so I contacted lavatech. Their response was that they do not support it, that I should delete the app. WTF? Also, the manual clearly stated that the tablet charges via the mini-USB port. It doesn't. It only charges via the DC adapter port, and it uses a near impossible-to-find-size barrel connector.Lava Tech is uninterested in supporting their core products. Their response if something doesn't work according to their documentation, is to simply not use that feature, or they insist I'm doing it wrong (how can you plug in a mini-USB cable incorrectly?!).
I have a GS1000 dashcam (orange menu, a genuine GS1000 not a clone) - another cheap Chinese product. It has all the features I wanted but I ran into a bug. They quickly turned around and gave me a firmware update that fixed the problem I reported but introduced another problem. I emailed them again and they sent me another update (which I still have yet to test because I have been in the middle of moving to New Hampshire). Excellent customer service for a cheap product.
Support from Chinese companies ranges from completely sucktastic to fantastic. Unfortunately the former is far more common. I think the way Samsung and Apple actually stand behind their products, both will take the Chinese market by storm. I wouldn't buy a smartphone from a Chinese company because there is too much risk that the most basic features won't work (like, not being able to make phone calls) and the company will just say "don't use that feature then."
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Almost everyone I asked said that the iPhone screen was too small.
They also said⦠"Why is the iPhone so expensive when it has such a small screen?"
You can buy an Android phone with a gorgeous 5.7" display for half the cost of the iPhone in China. That was the biggest screen I found and it looked more vibrant than the screen on my iPhone 5.
If Apple wants to keep selling phones in China, they need bigger screens. Therefore, you can expect there will be a big screen iPhone. The Chinese market is too big for them to ignore. There's lots of competition now and Chinese consumers have zero brand loyalty.
Indeed. And there's a big difference between being locked in to an ecosystem with a single vendor, expensive on top of that (iPhones for the whole family, at $600 a pop, then $1k+ Macs and MacBooks, $300 iPods, $400+ iPads), versus a multivendor ecosystem where I can get a $600 GS4 or HTC One, but also $200 phones for the kids, $100-200 tablets, $50 Android desktops... Sure, the quality of the cheap stuff is not the same, but the big difference is between having the stuff or not having it; how good the stuff is comes a very distant second. I got a phone, a tablet, a netbook, and an Android stick for less than the cost of a single 64GB iPhone...
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
I've lived in China for the past nine years, and while I'm no expert, I can maybe shed a little light on the actual situation here. While most affluent Chinese own iProducts, and in particular have a bias iPhones, that's not where the market is going. Apple products are more expensive, and Apple has always had supply chain issues in China; most people prefer to buy from a vendor who goes through Hong Kong since you avoid taxes that way. I think the bigger issue is being locked in to Apple's systems. Look at companies like xiaomi.com, they are basically trying to be an Apple clone. Android allows you do to that. This company started building custom roms, then started building phones, and now they have a huge loyal user base. While a lot of people still go for iProducts for the wow appeal, overall there are more fresh things going on on Android, and that's enough to attract customers.
What war did the US wage against China? England screwed with them plenty, but the US has generally fought against their enemies or only indirectly in proxy wars. When you talk "asian" it sounds like you are picking and choosing between multiple different ethnicities to suit your "pet" theory. US liberated the Phillipines and is well liked there. Despite fighting Japan, the US is not hated there. And China likes the US. Well, the people do, even if the government doesn't. When walking around large cities that get few tourists, as a tall pale person, I had plenty of strangers who would come up and find some excuse to practice English with me.
Maybe those in some countries don't like us, but from what I've seen, having been across much of eastern Asia, the US is generally well regarded. The only exception is Indonesia, and that's religious/political. What country are you from, the country of "MakeShitUp?"
Learn to love Alaska
This is odd but just today I took my kids to "Chinese Reconciliation Park" - a spot to recognize and apologize for the fact that in the 1800's thousands of Chinese people were driven out of our town in a spat of racial hatred. Most fled on threat of violence but the last 200 were rounded up forcibly, driven to the edge of town to wait a day unsheltered in the pouring, bitterly cold November rain and then loaded onto cattle cars for a trip to Portland, Oregon. At the end of that day there was not one Chinese person left in town. We had had an ethnic purge.
I'm not sure our kids got the whole horror of it, but it hit me pretty hard.
What war did the US wage against China?
Estimates of Chinese casualties in the Korean war range up to 900,000. Accepted level seems to be around 700,000 with 180,000 fatalities.
I appreciate that the action was UN-flagged but the majority of forces were US.
Here's a big hint for Tim: on iOS, you can't write a custom keyboard. On Android you can. This is a really big deal in Hong Kong, because iOS has no support for Cantonese-based Chinese input. The best you can do is a kludgy app where you have to copy and paste the result (see https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/canton-guang-dong-pin-yin/id385519764?mt=8).
Therefore, the Cantonese user is hamstrung by Apple's lack of support for the Cantonese-speaking market, together with their locked-down approach which prevents third party developers from filling the hole.
Compare this with the situation on Android, where there are at least five Cantonese-based keyboard input methods, together with Cantonese voice recognition. Why is it surprising if Hong Kongers find iOS seriously deficient?
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
There isn't an immigrant group we weren't bad to. The question was only the breadth of harm and duration. Plenty is still essentially ongoing.
Learn to love Alaska
"... how good the stuff is comes a very distant second..."
See, that statement needs a qualifier. Apple products are indeed well-engineered, but your typical everyday user may not appreciate that as much as, say a "developer". (Developer in quotes because these days it's a "politically correct" euphemism for programmer. I know, because I am one.)
For a developer, an Apple machine is close to the best of all worlds. You get a very nice hardware platform, and the freedom to run everybody else's OS in a VM too. No other OS has as much flexibility in that particular regard, including Linux. Yes, you can do it in Linux too, but it's not the same. You can run Linux in a VM on a Mac far easier than you can run OS X in a VM on Linux, for example. And Windows? No contest. Apple machines are some of the best Windows machines on the market.
On a Mac, you can install Windows in a "Boot Camp" partition, and dual-boot Windows. This is officially allowed (in contrast, dual-booting a Windows machine, according to Microsoft, is NEVER allowed). And that's all good. BUT... the real beauty of the Boot Camp system is that under OS X, I can install VMware and choose my Boot Camp partition as a VM to run. And this is what is cool about that:
[1] If I want to run, just for example, graphics-intensive software (like some games) in Windows, I can boot up in windows and Just Do It. With ALL the hardware acceleration native Windows brings to the app. [2] If I don't need top performance, but just want to do something in Windows from time to time, I can simply start VMware, and use it to run the SAME copy of windows... all the settings and programs, same same... in a window under OS X.
Microsoft doesn't allow that kind of thing at all, and Linux does not do it anywhere near as well. So from a developer's point of view, I say again: a Mac comes very close to the best of all worlds.
"Just an example: Putting music on an iPhone can only be described as frustrating; particularly if you're using a computer that is not your own. On an Android or BlackBerry phone, you simply copy it over like it's a flash drive. No hassle, no "syncing", and no clunky software required. It just works."
Myth yourself. Yes, when it comes to iTunes, I agree with you. But that falls under the "corporate lock-in" category I already described; it isn't true of the products in general. (FYI, I very seldom use iTunes myself. Apple tried to stuff way too much into one program and as a result fucked up most of it. I use iTunes to play music, PERIOD. And it's not even my default program for doing most of that.) But my point is: that's a software issue, not hardware, and it's one of those Apple glitches, not the rule. You can set up your Apple to use other programs, just as you do for Android. The stock players in Android ain't much better than iTunes.
"It's a bit like the old myth "Macs are better for graphics" which has never been true."
The hell it has never been true. Ask Hollywood.
But it is also true that part of that reputation came from the fact that Macs had a GUI long before Microsoft did.
You do also realize that China started that war, correct? UN forces did not enter Chinese territory, the Chinese decided that they were getting too close to the Yalu river and attacked. China waged war agains the US, not the other way around(also the US saved their asses during WWII, a fact that many Chinese history books tend to "overlook")
Monstar L
I believe the iPhone size is pretty good. In fact, a cell phone with a screen bigger than 4,3 feels oversized in my opinion.
They saved their asses? China was overrun pretty much like France, and at least the Chinese had the excuse of having a civil war going on while the invasion happened. So after a whole lot of killing, when the ALLIES finally won, countries like China were free to get back to normal. The US forced Japan to surrender, but it was either going to be the US or the Soviet Union that would force their hand to get back to the status quo.
I tried to get a Windows license for a machine I custom built here in China, and boy, they kind of looked at me like I was speaking klingon or something. I did find a store eventually that sells legal copies but it was like finding a specialty craft store in a large mall.
The guys I got the computer from used a pen drive with Norton Ghost to clone a whole lot of stuff to the new machine, from QQ (think MSN Messenger) to Windows and Office.
They might look kind of the same, but the Chinese are wary of locally manufactured products since they rather trust a foreign brand with the good quality controls than a local one that who knows what will happen. This is all over the spectrum here in China, from baby formula to beef and whatnot.
You can go to Shenzhen and they will actually build a custom phone for you with whatever components you want. You see, in China you have places like a local fruit market but only that they have electronics, and you will see people running around, trying to tell you to buy their stuff. Everything is overpriced and you can always negotiate a 50% or even 75% discount on most stuff, but if you cannot find what you are looking for in a store, they will fetch it for you. These places have almost all electronics known to man :)
Well if you are in China, you just fire up QQ Music and have all the music you want. If you are in the US you can use Spotify, or you can buy stuff from the iTunes store which I don't see as truly hard. Now if you want to pirate music and upload it to your device, you just copy that in iTunes and then sync, or where are you getting that flash drive music if it isn't from torrents or a physical CD?
So really, drop the crap. Apple is overpriced and they like to lock you in, but saying that it is not simple to use is a flat out lie.
China was overrun pretty much like France, and at least the Chinese had the excuse of having a civil war going on while the invasion happened.
France had similar divisions between right and left. Those rivalries didn't reach the point of a shooting war, but that internal conflict help crippled their military preparedness and encouraged a number of factions (what became the Vichy French) to collaborate with the German invaders.
Actually Mao and Chiang set their differences aside to fight the Japanese, then resumed to the business of killing each other. At least that is the way the history is taught in China, but the interesting part is that if you go to places like Nanjing, you still see they value some of the anti-communist generals which to me it was an interesting development.
but that does not mean that Chinese today hold a grudge against American people for it.
This may be true of the Chinese, but the GP's claim that "from what I've seen, having been across much of eastern Asia, the US is generally well regarded" completely disregards history from well within my lifetime.
This might not be generally known within the US, but what we refer to as the Vietnam War is known in Vietnam as the "American War". It's just too convenient to forget who was the aggressor.
Yep, better product, better price and you can install Cyanogen/AOSP to clear any backdoors. With Apple products you're stuck with your OS spying on you.
why do you think cyan/aosp isn't spying on you? And what about all the malicious apps? if i lived in china, home of the filthy filthy app store, I'd want some protection.
Well, you have to have trust in the Cyanogenmod people which is reinforced by being allowed to see the source and build it yourself. As far as malicious apps go, on Cyanogenmod, they've recently added "Privacy Guard" which basically chroots any app in a sandbox and emulates all parts of the system, but allows no chrooted app to see any data from any other app. http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/06/24/privacy-guard-formerly-incognito-mode-has-been-merged-into-cyanogenmod-will-appear-in-nightlies-starting-today/
When Apple first became available in China, the "status" drove sales. But, that market was quickly saturated. The Chinese market typically demands several things of a smartphone: microSD support and swappable batteries. Phones without those abilities are simply not as well received. Some manufacturers make special products just for the Chinese market, like HTC does with their One model. In the US and Europe, the HTC One is completely sealed, no access to battery, no microSD slot. But in China, the HTC One has at least the microSD because that market demands it. In China, they put a lot of video onto microSD to play on their devices, whether phone or tablet. The Apple system requires those videos to be converted on a host computer before they will play on the device. Android typically does not require any conversion, it plays many more formats than Apple. The microSD can be loaded up with movies and tv shows to watch on the commutes to/from work and school. Apple doesn't seem to understand the Chinese market. They had the initial status-driven people, but those don't offer continued sales/growth.
This might not be generally known within the US, but what we refer to as the Vietnam War is known in Vietnam as the "American War". It's just too convenient to forget who was the aggressor.
Wouldn't that be "France" as the war started with them? But wait, France was supporting the Vietnamese emperor, so that would mean... the North were the aggressors. A little history goes a long way. FYI - the US was a late late late comer to this particular war, and was not an aggressor.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
The US supplied funds and aid and instruction during WWII to what would become the National Liberation Front (Viet Cong) when the war ended. That conflict started against the british when soldiers where sent in to accept the surrender of the Japanese troops and police the region until france could handle it them selves. This started the First Indochina War.
There are lots of reasons for this. The primary being that not all allies had quite the same goals in the second world war. America was working towards undermining the european colonial powers (post war). Other of the allies wanted to resume their empires. This partially determined which insurgents where sponsored by various allied powers during the war.
History is never simple.
Apple's profits have continued to grow each quarter, so your post is totally wrong...
Perhaps you meant profit margins? But then that would also mean your post was wrong.
So either way, you are in for a big surprise over the next few years.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The people selling expensive (4 and 5-figure expensive) watches and jewelery to Chinese tourists here are making an absolute fortune these days.
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
The problem is growth on growth.
Investors do not just expect to get a return on their investment, they expect that this return continuously increases. The reverse is true of the shadow of growth - the news in my country barely ever report how much debt the government is taking again, the number everyone focusses on is not only new debt, but whether or not that increases or decreases ("yeay! the government has reduced the additional debt this year!" - translation: We are not paying back our debt. We are increasing our debt. We are just increasing it a little less then last year.)
Same with investment, just a bit less obvious. If I invest $100 in your company today, and I get $10 in dividends a year, I break even after 10 years and after that, my profit grows every year. So this whining isn't about decreasing profits, but about a decrease in the increase of profit. The company is still making money and so are its investors. It's just less then before.
The stock market, of course, is a 2nd and 3rd (options) derivative game, so growth of growth is considered vital because that's how the system works. That doesn't mean it has any meaning outside of it.
The culture I referred to was that we've allowed the casino to dominate the real economy.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Not sure why this was modded insightful. It's pure opinion, and the proliferation of 5" smartphones suggests yours is not universally shared. Opinion is not insight. Interesting, perhaps.
For what it's worth I find 5" to be ideal - I can reach all areas with one hand and type comfortably, with a nice large display to show detail on maps and a less cramped keyboard. 4.3" seems cramped.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
And they fit so snugly within the over sized pockets of my new iPants!
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
There are numerous reasons for Chinese distaste of America but a few prominent ones related to your post are firstly that "but the US has generally fought against their enemies or only indirectly in proxy wars" is ignorant of the truth just a little bit. The fact is that the US was the main opposing force to North Korea in the Korean War but on Korea's side were the Chinese. Over 1 million of them in fact.
The North Koreans were smaller in number than China (they had about 1/6th the numbers), South Korea and the US. In other words the Korean war was more like a direct war between China and the US/South Korea. You had just under 1million Americans/South Koreans combined against 1.3 million Chinese and only about 250,000 North Koreans. Calling it an indirect proxy war is a bit stupid. There's nothing indirect about 300,000 Americans with 600,000 South Koreans facing off against 1.3 million Chinese and only 250,000 South Koreans.
Another reason for Chinese distaste of America is it's support for Japan. Chinese distaste for the Japanese is still relatively high in part because Japan never really managed to do away with the nationalist sentiment there after the war unlike German that genuinely turned a corner. The result to this day is a non-negligible number of Japanese who refuse to accept wrongdoing in World War II and the resultant lack of willingness from successive Japanese governments to do anything about this. That's why we saw massive protests in China that weren't mere communist party stunts but genuine expressions of anger over the rising tensions surrounding the islands they both dispute ownership of recently. The Chinese see this as an extension of that worst kind of nationalism that Japan never truly shook off.
There's then the Taiwan question, many mainlanders believe it should be a fully integrated part of China proper, but the US has vowed to protect the will of the Taiwanese people (which is IMO not a bad thing, but I'm explaining here where the Chinese distaste comes from). The fact it has stationed carriers there largely for this exact purpose is seen as somewhat of a provocation - that's kind of what happens when you station a battle group or two off a foreign nation's coast.
Of course, American hypocrisy in constantly complaining about Chinese hackers and Chinese firms peddling backdoored hardware doesn't do much for relations either, especially when it's now clear that America has been snooping on everyone's data and funding hacking of Chinese institutions to boot. The Chinese therefore see the US rhetoric over the supposed Chinese cyber security threat as mere protectionism, and that is precisely why the Chinese will be less likely to buy US electronic goods - why would they when the products they create, that give them their jobs have been smeared so brutally in the US?
So yes whilst your cutesy personal anecdote is all well and good that simply says that they're decent enough to be nice to you as an individual - they do that because they're mostly respectful hospitable people. It doesn't say anything about their feelings towards your country in general.
I also note you shifted focus to East/South East Asia in your final paragraph, why was that? are the feelings towards America in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and all the other 'stans in the area inconvenient to your point? What was that you criticised the GP over? Something about picking and choosing Asian nations to suit your "pet" theory? Even ignoring that you seem to have skipped countries like Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia and Laos, relations between then and the US are better, but it can hardly be said that the people of those nations are particularly fans of the US.