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Snowden Gave 15,000 Documents to Glenn Greenwald; Obama Cancels Russia Summit
sl4shd0rk writes "The American journalist Glenn Greewald, who published much of the initial info on illegal NSA programs, plans to release more revelations on the NSA spying machine in 10 days. 'The articles we have published so far are a very small part of the revelations that ought to be published,' Greenwald said on Tuesday. Greenwald further elaborated on public posturing which many nations are currently taking: 'The Brazilian government is showing much more anger in public than it is showing in private discussions with the U.S. government. All governments are doing this, even in Europe.'"
The U.S. decided to pull out of a summit with Russia next month, citing the decision to grant Snowden asylum as a factor: "However, given our lack of progress on issues such as missile defense and arms control, trade and commercial relations, global security issues, and human rights and civil society in the last twelve months, we have informed the Russian Government that we believe it would be more constructive to postpone the summit until we have more results from our shared agenda. Russia's disappointing decision to grant Edward Snowden temporary asylum was also a factor that we considered in assessing the current state of our bilateral relationship. Our cooperation on these issues remains a priority for the United States, so on Friday, August 9, Secretaries Hagel and Kerry will meet with their Russian counterparts in a 2+2 format in Washington to discuss how we can best make progress moving forward on the full range of issues in our bilateral relationship."
"The US government telling other countries what to do and then throwing a temper tantrum when it doesn't get what it wants."
Screw you Obama for giving Russia, with all their human rights problems like Pussy Riot, the moral high ground here. Screw you for making the US look like a bunch of mean-spirited whiners that have lost their shit because Snowden revealed the emperor has no clothes. It's going to be a long time, if ever, until we get back the home of the free and the land of the brave.
No. The UK government is working with the American government. I suspect most of them are. In public they have to act angry because many people are angry about it; it's illegal/immoral, and no-one asked for it. Privately they're either helping (favour for a favour) or benefitting from it, although a lot of politicians will be against it themselves, but having to go along with it because it's their own secret security services who are involved with only the knowledge of a handful of politicians at the top. Not easy to spin this to the public.
Nothing's going to change out of all this.
One would think the US government cannot be provoked so easily and would never react in such a pathetic manner but we live in interesting times.
Obama goes out of his way to avoid pissing off the Russians (stops expanding NATO, stops deploying missile defense in Europe), but is willing to break the US Constitution to spy on his own country.
Yay hopenchange!
Come on, America. You let the whole world use the internet for over a decade, with everyone thinking/believing that their data is reasonably private. Now it turns out that - oops - you built giant digital systems capable of eavesdropping on, essentially, everybody; the whole fricking world. That is/was a SERIOUS mistake. Mistakes of this magnitude can only be fixed by someone credible taking responsibility for what has been done wrong, and seeing to it that the "mistake" in question - the digital snooping system that tracks everybody - being shut down, or at least constrained & regulated better. ---- What does America do instead? It goes after the "Whistleblower" who did something heroic by warning billions of innocent people: "Be careful what you do in the digital world. Your internet/phone data is not private any longer." ------ Own up to your mistakes, America. Then start the process of undoing said mistakes. ---- The cost of not doing this? America will go down in the history books as a superpower-bully, that is morally & ethically not much better than the USSR was in its heydays. ---- Own up to the mistakes. Then fix them.
Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
That is what describes the world's rulers today. This reaction against Snowden and Manning confirm that.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
He of the "Nobel Peace Prize for nothing more than saying he'd be interested in talking" is taking his ball and going home until the US gets their way.
I'm not saying Russia isn't moving a little backwards over the last bunch of years, but let's not pretend that the US wouldn't grant asylum to someone leaving Russia under similar circumstances and call it defending freedom and liberty.
I view this as a diplomatic temper tantrum. 'Shared Agenda' in modern US diplomatic speak is code for "what we want".
I think you might see more and more countries deciding they are tired of being strong-armed into complying with what the US wants. Especially with the revelations of just exactly the scope of their spying and other activities.
This is like the guy you discovered screwing your wife cancelling your dinner invitation because you hurt his feelings when you kicked him out of your house -- there's a lot of "woe is us", but don't keep playing that victim card too much.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The Brazilian government is showing much more anger in public than it is showing in private discussions with the U.S. government
Private discussions are probably much more along the lines of "How much do you charge? Can we get a discount on this technology?"
Is president Obama going to throw a little temper tantrum too? Perhaps stamp his little feet, and hold his breath until he turns purple?
--Maybe he will tell his mommy, or the secret service!
Seriously. Tactics like this (Cancelling a peace negotiation summit, over ASYLUM being GRANTED!) only serve to clearly demonstrate that Obama was never interested in peaceful relations with Russia, only with getting its way. All it does is say loud and clear to Putin that his distrust of the US missile infrastructure being constructed in the middle east is indeed a threat to russian national security, that the US is unwilling to have to compromise on anything.
If they cant play by their rules, they will stop their feet, cry, and go home.
This is the fucking pinnacle of childishness.
What are the chances for Snowden to avoid going to prison if he returns home? Zero. Therefore it is quite clear Snowden will try to avoid it, no matter how ''correct' or 'righteous' he may be.
Not necessarily. I don't know that I agree with the view, but there is another: Give Snowden Immunity
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Reading into Glen Greenwald's comments and some of his other statements, it would seem that much of the spying is used not for security purposes, rather it's to give an edge to certain select US businesses.
If this is true, it would be huge. Citizens don't count for much in terms of US policy decisions, but an unfair boost to chosen businesses would tick off every other business in the US and abroad - the economic ramifications would be nothing short of tectonic.
I don't understand why that information would ever be released. Are they trying to provoke the US government? I think so.
There really is a difference between short-term advantage and long-term gain, and it's one of the ways to measure intelligence. If Glen should withhold the information for fear of ticking off the US government, he gives up the potential benefits of a future where the US has been forced to stop such corrupt and illegal practices.
The long-term gain is enormous and long-lasting, the short-term pain is fleeting and ephemeral. That's why he is releasing the information.
In the long run, we're all better off by having this information out in the open.
well, just ask Sarah Palin to keep a close eye on them, just over there and you'll have plenty of time to know if those dammed ruskies are up to no darn good.....
Congress clearly considers Snowden to be a whistleblower, or they wouldn't be voting on proposals to restrict the activity of the NSA http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/07/24/plan-to-defund-nsa-phone-collection-program-has-broad-support-sponsor-says/ Yet Obama continues to label Snowden's actions as espionage. He knows this bullshit, because apparently he's taken down from the internet his promise to protect whistleblowers http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/obama-whistleblower-website_n_3658815.html Good thing we have the Way Back Machine, then, isn't it? http://web.archive.org/web/20090227184741/http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/
soylentnews.org
They're acting like spoiled, jilted children. I'm frankly ashamed of this sham of a government we have running the "show" at the moment. I use quotes because it's a circus, not a government. The american politicians of 1776 would have these morons in irons for the rest of their lives. Well, more accurately the poiticians of 1776 would have these morons surrendering after a bloody 4 year war for independence.
The White House has been unbelievably quiet through all of this. First, Obama "welcomed" a discussion. Then, he got caught lying with "the nobody is reading your emails" line. Then, Clapper got caught lying. I think they're keeping quiet because they have a good idea what is coming next. They can't afford to get caught lying again.
Obummer is good! Obummer is great! We surrender our souls as of this date!
You seem to be having a lot of fun bashing on Obama but you should cast your net wide. It's a concerted effort between a handful of large players in the power structure.
Its all a show to reassure their respective citizens that they are complying with the laws and looking out for their best interests.
Captain Renault: "I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"
Croupier: "Your winnings, sir."
Have gnu, will travel.
I dunno. This sort of nonsense started pretty early on.
Alien and Sedition Acts
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
And in other other news: John Lewis has just said that he supported Snowden and compared his leaks to the civil disobediance during the Civil Rights era. I'll bet Obama is wishing that he didn't give him the Presidential Medal of Freedom and call him the "conscience of the United States Congress".
I only hope Greenwald and his colleagues at The Guardian have also setup a Dead Man's switch to release everything worldwide in case of some 'tragic accident' ala Michael Hastings.
Otherwise, by saying 'in ten days', he's only started the countdown clock to his execution.
It was a bit more than 4 years. Perhaps you'd like to read up about it. There was also a good documentary series on Netflix I watched a while back, but I can't remember what it was called. It was mostly a live action re-enactment with narration, more a miniseries than a documentary really. Not much rah rah America but more historically accurate including even a sympathetic look at Benedict Arnold and his reasons for defecting. About 8 hour-long episodes iirc covering the period of time from shortly after the French and Indian War through the ratification of the Articles of Confederation. Then there was the whole War of 1812 mess.
Moral of the story: revolution can happen, not everyone will support you, your reasons may not even be as righteous as you think they are, and it will be long, drawn out, and very bloody, and you'll probably lose unless an ally like late 18th century France sympathizes with you.
I can see how both Mannings and Snowden have broken the law.
So has Obama. He deserves the same treatment Manning and Snowden will receive.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
They're trying to make the point of the furor and debate over the last month was triggered by only a small amount of data. A good portion of the conversation has been an attempt to deflect the attacks to Snowden himself, instead of what the information showed.
Still, it resulted in multiple Congressional hearings; a very close vote to defund aspects of the PATRIOT Act; and a public act of perjury by the DNI.
His point is all that was prompted by only the tip of the iceberg, and they still have the entire polar expanse to uncover.
He could also be putting various public officials on notice that they better not lie to the public about what they knew and approved of, because he can quite possibly publicly call them on it.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Why do you naively believe that the US will ever stop such spying? Every industrialized country on earth does it including the UK, Brazil, Russia, Germany, France, Italy, et al.. because they can and because they have the technological wherewithal to do it.
For a site filled with supposed tech enthusiasts I'm seeing an awful lot of naivete and misunderstanding of technology. Once you invent a technology it doesn't get uninvented.
Yet Obama continues to label Snowden's actions as espionage
Snowden has been charged with two things- theft of government property (4 laptops) and giving classified information to a person without security clearance. The later charge was created by the Espionage Act of 1917. It is not "espionage" in any common use of the word. Nobody, including Snowden, has denied that he did those things.
It is Obama and the Executive Branch's job to enforce existing law. They're doing that. If the Judicial Branch rules that Snowden's actions were justified, then he'll walk free.
Well, the initial stories said that Snowden had acquired the information and intentionally waited until after the last election to release it. The reasons that I remember being given were that Snowden had HOPED for some CHANGE in the Government and for some wacky reason thought that Obama would be the one to do it. Apparently the data was released after he determined that the hope and change thing wasn't gonna happen.
Right now it sounds to me a lot like blackmail - the documents will continue to be released as long as the US Gubmint starts acting like spoiled brats. We can see that this hasn't changed, so we can expect documents to continue to be released. If they're smart they'll break up the data from least to most damaging and release it in that order...the more the US resists decency, the worse their reputation will get until the Americans (or hell, other countries) get together to kick some ass.
it seems like most of the world, excluding us politicians/warwhores, really feels snowden acted. responsibly and in good faith. despite Snowdens motives do not loose sight of the fact that the NSA has redefined the law to suit their needs regarding metadata capture. this is not acceptable and needs to be answered by top brass. the NSA is not the law but they are acting as if.
regarding obamas playground tactics, that is very poor. he cannot deny the NSA has acted outside the law yet he pretends the problem is with Putin and his decisions. this is the act of a coward and politician and not a man with a conscience. at least Putin considered Snowden does have some rights regardless. tricky as this was to navigate politically I think Russia did the right thing and did so with prudence and regard.
Snowden has been charged with two things- theft of government property (4 laptops) and giving classified information to a person without security clearance. The later charge was created by the Espionage Act of 1917. It is not "espionage" in any common use of the word.
I'm not expert on the Espionage act, but the Wikipedia tells me that the original Act made the following a crime:
1. To convey information with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the armed forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies. This was punishable by death or by imprisonment for not more than 30 years or both.
2. To convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies when the United States is at war, to cause or attempt to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or to willfully obstruct the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States. This was punishable by a maximum fine of $10,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 20 years or both.
Snowden hasn't done either of things and there is no basis for Obama to be pursuing him based upon the Espionage Act. He has not handed sensititve secrets to the enemy, either directly or by way of the media. So unless you are aware of another part of the Espionage Act, it seems that Obama is stretching its definition to pursue Snowden.
soylentnews.org
Maybe he regrets it, but maybe he finds comfort in the fact that at least for once one of his decisions was actually right.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Don't EVER try playing chess with Russians. You will lose in some very unexpected way, and they will buy you a drink, and challenge you to swallow the whole gherkin.
And France didn't so much sympathize as want to screw over the English holdings in the Americas after the French and Indian war.
If this is true, it would be huge. Citizens don't count for much in terms of US policy decisions, but an unfair boost to chosen businesses would tick off every other business in the US and abroad - the economic ramifications would be nothing short of tectonic.
I hate to be the cynic, but no, it wouldn't be huge. Politics has become the greatest spectator sport of the 21st century. Everyone has an opinion about what's wrong, but no one's willing to act on it enough to create substantial change.
We nearly hanged Nixon (and Ford for pardoning him) for Watergate. We have bigger scandals than Watergate happening today, scandals involving the usurption of our civil liberties by our own government, but no one's doing anything about it except complain. Like the boiling frog, we've become so acclimiated to these changes that I doubt we'll be able to leap out of the situation before it kills us.
I don't think we've hit that tipping point "yet." I still have hope that we never will. You're correct in that things have changed. What it took then and what it would take now are different animals.
I was making a specific point though, which you've highlighted, and which escaped a lot of other people, I think. The people who did what they did in 1776 would not stand for what our government is doing to/against us now. They fought for a LOT more than the garbage we're sucking down willingly now. Our government is completely off base and way outside the lines of what should be considered acceptable.
They're acting like the rotten kids who get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and then throw themselves on the floor screaming in rage at their parents, because they hope their show of emotion will distract from the sin they just commited. We're being led by a pile of toddlers.
You slam him, yet neglect to mention you'd be there with him asking him to pass the bag of Cheetos. Hell, I'd probably be there too. If you think you have no ego, you have a very big ego.
All of you guys can share my Cheetos when you sign my cold, dead online petition. That'll show 'em.
I am not a crackpot.
That's cute to try and make an equivalence, but one is the president,
If the president does it, it's legal? Is that the argument you're going for?
And the president didn't break the law
The Constitution is the highest law of the land. Violating the Constitution is breaking the law. Impeachment may be our only recourse under the law, and our government is too corrupt to deliver justice, but Obama is a criminal all the same.
also he doesn't run the NSA
The president is commander in chief of the military, and the NSA is a branch of the DOD. Obama is responsible.
Furthermore, the electronic eavesdropping was signed off by FISA, congress and the supreme court
ALL of whom have conspired to violate our Constitutional rights. That's how little the rule of law matters in the US anymore.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I sometimes get the impression that a president, or a leader in general, serves as a lightning rod for criticism. Kind of like building shitty products, and instead of fixing them, creating a complaints department to be yelled at.
-- Using the preview button since 2005
we changed the rules many years ago.
No, "we" didn't "change the rules". The corrupt pieces of shit in government decided on their own to ignore the rules. There's a difference.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
It is Obama and the Executive Branch's job to enforce existing law. They're doing that.
Perjury is against existing law. When can we expect prosecutions of the DNI for perjuring himself in front of Congress?
The 4th amendment is also existing law, and Obama isn't enforcing that one either. It's clear at this point that Obama's oath to defend the Constitution is completely broken, and he deserves impeachment at best.
Whether or not Snowden gets punished for breaking the law matters much less than whether or not Obama gets punished for breaking the highest law of the land. He won't, and that is how we know the rule of law is meaningless in the United States.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Then you have an inability to read plain English. The 4th amendment is clear, no warrants shall issue without probable cause and without specifically describing the places to be searched and things to be siezed.
There are two justifiable opinions here:
1) Generalized surveillance is bad, so the NSA must be stopped.
2) Generalized surveillance is good, so the Constitution must be amended to allow it.
Those are the ONLY defensible positions. Encouraging the government to break the law makes you nothing but a craven authoritarian.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
What happened so far:
The US government
* violated the privacy of Americans and foreigners by collecting information on all their communications, regardless of whether they are being investigated or not
* executes people in foreign countries without any trial
* tortures people in foreign countries without any trial
* invades foreign countries by fabricating evidence
* pursues journalists and whistle-blowers through all possible legal and diplomatic channels of pressure
* arbitrarily withdraws the passport of their own citizens without any legal process
* arbitrarily withdraws the right to fly in the US without any legal process
* demands extradition, trials of foreigners and fair treatment based on international law, but refuses it to others
Then, when these things turn up
* nobody is being held accountable [e.g. Bush, Rumsfeld]
* no compensation for the victims [e.g. torture victims, invaded countries]
* no guarantees it will not happen again
You can do whatever you want within your borders, and choose the rules you want to live by. But don't take your stupid decisions out on everyone else. And for the love of god, EU & UN, stand up to this bully.
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
If they're smart they'll break up the data from least to most damaging and release it in that order...the more the US resists decency, the worse their reputation will get until the Americans (or hell, other countries) get together to kick some ass.
That's a dangerous strategy, though. It may end up just inducing a tolerance in the people if the damage is ramped up slowly like that. Already, we're seeing signs of that with the DEA's admission that systematic perjury and the outright fabrication of evidence is "a bedrock concept" in their cases. The public's response to that has been pretty mild and the whole thing seems to have blown over already. I'm not sure exactly what would be shocking enough to provoke a response from the public at this point.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
The American Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, as designed is totally broken as it is impossible to follow so the politicians have to ignore it which becomes a habit along with courts that rule that, eg "Congress will make no law" actually means something completely different.
Look at Snowden, no-one is bitching that he is hiding in Russia due to practicing his first amendment rights, everyone agrees that when the Constitution says something that actually it means something else. Free speech except in the case of child porn, national security, bad words etc.
My Country wrote our Bill of Rights (and the rest of our constitution) to avoid the American mistake of writing one that sounds good but is routinely broken which just encourages the politicians to break it more instead of changing it. Shit they couldn't even have been bothered to amend it to make the Air Force legal, an amendment that would have passed easily.
A law or constitution that can not be followed is worthless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
The American peasants of that time were wealthy landholders compared to the European peasants. So much so that it is hard to make the statement that you did. Because although it is true, it is not the whole story.
Revolution will happen when the people who have been systematically divided have something to fight for in solidarity.