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Snowden Gave 15,000 Documents to Glenn Greenwald; Obama Cancels Russia Summit
sl4shd0rk writes "The American journalist Glenn Greewald, who published much of the initial info on illegal NSA programs, plans to release more revelations on the NSA spying machine in 10 days. 'The articles we have published so far are a very small part of the revelations that ought to be published,' Greenwald said on Tuesday. Greenwald further elaborated on public posturing which many nations are currently taking: 'The Brazilian government is showing much more anger in public than it is showing in private discussions with the U.S. government. All governments are doing this, even in Europe.'"
The U.S. decided to pull out of a summit with Russia next month, citing the decision to grant Snowden asylum as a factor: "However, given our lack of progress on issues such as missile defense and arms control, trade and commercial relations, global security issues, and human rights and civil society in the last twelve months, we have informed the Russian Government that we believe it would be more constructive to postpone the summit until we have more results from our shared agenda. Russia's disappointing decision to grant Edward Snowden temporary asylum was also a factor that we considered in assessing the current state of our bilateral relationship. Our cooperation on these issues remains a priority for the United States, so on Friday, August 9, Secretaries Hagel and Kerry will meet with their Russian counterparts in a 2+2 format in Washington to discuss how we can best make progress moving forward on the full range of issues in our bilateral relationship."
I don't understand why that information would ever be released. Are they trying to provoke the US government? I think so.
...when bullies meet...
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
"The US government telling other countries what to do and then throwing a temper tantrum when it doesn't get what it wants."
Screw you Obama for giving Russia, with all their human rights problems like Pussy Riot, the moral high ground here. Screw you for making the US look like a bunch of mean-spirited whiners that have lost their shit because Snowden revealed the emperor has no clothes. It's going to be a long time, if ever, until we get back the home of the free and the land of the brave.
Throwing a tantrum cause the big baby didn't get its way.
No. The UK government is working with the American government. I suspect most of them are. In public they have to act angry because many people are angry about it; it's illegal/immoral, and no-one asked for it. Privately they're either helping (favour for a favour) or benefitting from it, although a lot of politicians will be against it themselves, but having to go along with it because it's their own secret security services who are involved with only the knowledge of a handful of politicians at the top. Not easy to spin this to the public.
Nothing's going to change out of all this.
One would think the US government cannot be provoked so easily and would never react in such a pathetic manner but we live in interesting times.
Obama goes out of his way to avoid pissing off the Russians (stops expanding NATO, stops deploying missile defense in Europe), but is willing to break the US Constitution to spy on his own country.
Yay hopenchange!
Come on, America. You let the whole world use the internet for over a decade, with everyone thinking/believing that their data is reasonably private. Now it turns out that - oops - you built giant digital systems capable of eavesdropping on, essentially, everybody; the whole fricking world. That is/was a SERIOUS mistake. Mistakes of this magnitude can only be fixed by someone credible taking responsibility for what has been done wrong, and seeing to it that the "mistake" in question - the digital snooping system that tracks everybody - being shut down, or at least constrained & regulated better. ---- What does America do instead? It goes after the "Whistleblower" who did something heroic by warning billions of innocent people: "Be careful what you do in the digital world. Your internet/phone data is not private any longer." ------ Own up to your mistakes, America. Then start the process of undoing said mistakes. ---- The cost of not doing this? America will go down in the history books as a superpower-bully, that is morally & ethically not much better than the USSR was in its heydays. ---- Own up to the mistakes. Then fix them.
Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
That is what describes the world's rulers today. This reaction against Snowden and Manning confirm that.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I can see how both Mannings and Snowden have broken the law. If you work in intelligence or in the army you cannot expect to get away with that. You need to be a journalist I guess. What are the chances for Snowden to avoid going to prison if he returns home? Zero. Therefore it is quite clear Snowden will try to avoid it, no matter how ''correct' or 'righteous' he may be.
Should the journalist Greenwald publish what they have? Well, isn't it his job to do so?
Is Assange a journalist? Hmmm. In a way, I guess. At least a hard-to-tell-kind-of-guy with a penchant for reluctant women yet locked up in an Ecuadorian dump.
I know that Russian government has been asking the US government for years to conclude an extradition treaty. The US always refuses.
It is understandable why. And in this case it is also, sort of, understandable.
Such figures as Pussy Riot, Snowden, etc. were a good news story weeks. They entertained us. Is it fair instead of a payment for the show to put them in cages?
He of the "Nobel Peace Prize for nothing more than saying he'd be interested in talking" is taking his ball and going home until the US gets their way.
I'm not saying Russia isn't moving a little backwards over the last bunch of years, but let's not pretend that the US wouldn't grant asylum to someone leaving Russia under similar circumstances and call it defending freedom and liberty.
I view this as a diplomatic temper tantrum. 'Shared Agenda' in modern US diplomatic speak is code for "what we want".
I think you might see more and more countries deciding they are tired of being strong-armed into complying with what the US wants. Especially with the revelations of just exactly the scope of their spying and other activities.
This is like the guy you discovered screwing your wife cancelling your dinner invitation because you hurt his feelings when you kicked him out of your house -- there's a lot of "woe is us", but don't keep playing that victim card too much.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The Brazilian government is showing much more anger in public than it is showing in private discussions with the U.S. government
Private discussions are probably much more along the lines of "How much do you charge? Can we get a discount on this technology?"
Is president Obama going to throw a little temper tantrum too? Perhaps stamp his little feet, and hold his breath until he turns purple?
--Maybe he will tell his mommy, or the secret service!
Seriously. Tactics like this (Cancelling a peace negotiation summit, over ASYLUM being GRANTED!) only serve to clearly demonstrate that Obama was never interested in peaceful relations with Russia, only with getting its way. All it does is say loud and clear to Putin that his distrust of the US missile infrastructure being constructed in the middle east is indeed a threat to russian national security, that the US is unwilling to have to compromise on anything.
If they cant play by their rules, they will stop their feet, cry, and go home.
This is the fucking pinnacle of childishness.
Reading into Glen Greenwald's comments and some of his other statements, it would seem that much of the spying is used not for security purposes, rather it's to give an edge to certain select US businesses.
If this is true, it would be huge. Citizens don't count for much in terms of US policy decisions, but an unfair boost to chosen businesses would tick off every other business in the US and abroad - the economic ramifications would be nothing short of tectonic.
I don't understand why that information would ever be released. Are they trying to provoke the US government? I think so.
There really is a difference between short-term advantage and long-term gain, and it's one of the ways to measure intelligence. If Glen should withhold the information for fear of ticking off the US government, he gives up the potential benefits of a future where the US has been forced to stop such corrupt and illegal practices.
The long-term gain is enormous and long-lasting, the short-term pain is fleeting and ephemeral. That's why he is releasing the information.
In the long run, we're all better off by having this information out in the open.
well, just ask Sarah Palin to keep a close eye on them, just over there and you'll have plenty of time to know if those dammed ruskies are up to no darn good.....
Congress clearly considers Snowden to be a whistleblower, or they wouldn't be voting on proposals to restrict the activity of the NSA http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/07/24/plan-to-defund-nsa-phone-collection-program-has-broad-support-sponsor-says/ Yet Obama continues to label Snowden's actions as espionage. He knows this bullshit, because apparently he's taken down from the internet his promise to protect whistleblowers http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/obama-whistleblower-website_n_3658815.html Good thing we have the Way Back Machine, then, isn't it? http://web.archive.org/web/20090227184741/http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/
soylentnews.org
They're acting like spoiled, jilted children. I'm frankly ashamed of this sham of a government we have running the "show" at the moment. I use quotes because it's a circus, not a government. The american politicians of 1776 would have these morons in irons for the rest of their lives. Well, more accurately the poiticians of 1776 would have these morons surrendering after a bloody 4 year war for independence.
The White House has been unbelievably quiet through all of this. First, Obama "welcomed" a discussion. Then, he got caught lying with "the nobody is reading your emails" line. Then, Clapper got caught lying. I think they're keeping quiet because they have a good idea what is coming next. They can't afford to get caught lying again.
Obummer is good! Obummer is great! We surrender our souls as of this date!
You seem to be having a lot of fun bashing on Obama but you should cast your net wide. It's a concerted effort between a handful of large players in the power structure.
No one wants to attack Alaska,
its cold and next to Canada, don't get me wrong its a wonderful place to live or visit, but a really terrible place to invade
Greenwald will be dead before this is released. An accident of course.
I go out of my way to complicate the simple things, so that I can simplify the complicated things.
Its all a show to reassure their respective citizens that they are complying with the laws and looking out for their best interests.
Captain Renault: "I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"
Croupier: "Your winnings, sir."
Have gnu, will travel.
I dunno. This sort of nonsense started pretty early on.
Alien and Sedition Acts
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
And in other other news: John Lewis has just said that he supported Snowden and compared his leaks to the civil disobediance during the Civil Rights era. I'll bet Obama is wishing that he didn't give him the Presidential Medal of Freedom and call him the "conscience of the United States Congress".
I only hope Greenwald and his colleagues at The Guardian have also setup a Dead Man's switch to release everything worldwide in case of some 'tragic accident' ala Michael Hastings.
Otherwise, by saying 'in ten days', he's only started the countdown clock to his execution.
The slaveowning aristocratic hypocrites who made a mockery of "liberty" would be too outraged that Black people and women could vote and become president to care much about someone leaking classified info to foreign governments. Although if they thought about it they'd be upset about that as well.
It was a bit more than 4 years. Perhaps you'd like to read up about it. There was also a good documentary series on Netflix I watched a while back, but I can't remember what it was called. It was mostly a live action re-enactment with narration, more a miniseries than a documentary really. Not much rah rah America but more historically accurate including even a sympathetic look at Benedict Arnold and his reasons for defecting. About 8 hour-long episodes iirc covering the period of time from shortly after the French and Indian War through the ratification of the Articles of Confederation. Then there was the whole War of 1812 mess.
Moral of the story: revolution can happen, not everyone will support you, your reasons may not even be as righteous as you think they are, and it will be long, drawn out, and very bloody, and you'll probably lose unless an ally like late 18th century France sympathizes with you.
They're trying to make the point of the furor and debate over the last month was triggered by only a small amount of data. A good portion of the conversation has been an attempt to deflect the attacks to Snowden himself, instead of what the information showed.
Still, it resulted in multiple Congressional hearings; a very close vote to defund aspects of the PATRIOT Act; and a public act of perjury by the DNI.
His point is all that was prompted by only the tip of the iceberg, and they still have the entire polar expanse to uncover.
He could also be putting various public officials on notice that they better not lie to the public about what they knew and approved of, because he can quite possibly publicly call them on it.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
You confuse "believes there was illegal activity so Snowden is a whistleblower" with "knew what was going on and that it was not illegal and are now acting to cover their asses from the masses".
Why do you naively believe that the US will ever stop such spying? Every industrialized country on earth does it including the UK, Brazil, Russia, Germany, France, Italy, et al.. because they can and because they have the technological wherewithal to do it.
For a site filled with supposed tech enthusiasts I'm seeing an awful lot of naivete and misunderstanding of technology. Once you invent a technology it doesn't get uninvented.
Yet Obama continues to label Snowden's actions as espionage
Snowden has been charged with two things- theft of government property (4 laptops) and giving classified information to a person without security clearance. The later charge was created by the Espionage Act of 1917. It is not "espionage" in any common use of the word. Nobody, including Snowden, has denied that he did those things.
It is Obama and the Executive Branch's job to enforce existing law. They're doing that. If the Judicial Branch rules that Snowden's actions were justified, then he'll walk free.
Well, the initial stories said that Snowden had acquired the information and intentionally waited until after the last election to release it. The reasons that I remember being given were that Snowden had HOPED for some CHANGE in the Government and for some wacky reason thought that Obama would be the one to do it. Apparently the data was released after he determined that the hope and change thing wasn't gonna happen.
Right now it sounds to me a lot like blackmail - the documents will continue to be released as long as the US Gubmint starts acting like spoiled brats. We can see that this hasn't changed, so we can expect documents to continue to be released. If they're smart they'll break up the data from least to most damaging and release it in that order...the more the US resists decency, the worse their reputation will get until the Americans (or hell, other countries) get together to kick some ass.
it seems like most of the world, excluding us politicians/warwhores, really feels snowden acted. responsibly and in good faith. despite Snowdens motives do not loose sight of the fact that the NSA has redefined the law to suit their needs regarding metadata capture. this is not acceptable and needs to be answered by top brass. the NSA is not the law but they are acting as if.
regarding obamas playground tactics, that is very poor. he cannot deny the NSA has acted outside the law yet he pretends the problem is with Putin and his decisions. this is the act of a coward and politician and not a man with a conscience. at least Putin considered Snowden does have some rights regardless. tricky as this was to navigate politically I think Russia did the right thing and did so with prudence and regard.
Snowden has been charged with two things- theft of government property (4 laptops) and giving classified information to a person without security clearance. The later charge was created by the Espionage Act of 1917. It is not "espionage" in any common use of the word.
I'm not expert on the Espionage act, but the Wikipedia tells me that the original Act made the following a crime:
1. To convey information with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the armed forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies. This was punishable by death or by imprisonment for not more than 30 years or both.
2. To convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies when the United States is at war, to cause or attempt to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or to willfully obstruct the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States. This was punishable by a maximum fine of $10,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 20 years or both.
Snowden hasn't done either of things and there is no basis for Obama to be pursuing him based upon the Espionage Act. He has not handed sensititve secrets to the enemy, either directly or by way of the media. So unless you are aware of another part of the Espionage Act, it seems that Obama is stretching its definition to pursue Snowden.
soylentnews.org
If they saw what's going on today, I guess they'd even consider rewording the eight amendment to allow it in certain special cases, like these.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Maybe he regrets it, but maybe he finds comfort in the fact that at least for once one of his decisions was actually right.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The votes failed, and Congress (or at least the folks on the intelligence committees) knew about these programs the entire time.
It's not White House versus Congress or Republican versus Democrat. Everyone's on the same page except the voters, and everyone wants Snowden waterboarded to the fullest extent of the unpublished law.
Is worse than that. Is not just an abstract enemy. Is someone that killed a lot of people, buried the bodies, and now is complaining about anyone that goes with a shovel to the forest, as is something bad that we are doing with them. Good part of the crime is already done, and odds are high that you notice some of this just when you become the next victim if nothing of this is uncovered.
well naturally thats how politicians work, the question is who is being lied to and who is being told the truth
Don't EVER try playing chess with Russians. You will lose in some very unexpected way, and they will buy you a drink, and challenge you to swallow the whole gherkin.
Your idiocy is showing.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
And that is the issue right there. The 1776 politicians and people took action and were willing to die for it. We now would be upset if we would miss the game of our favorite sports-team while eating our favorite fast food. Not a new idea
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Thanks - that's pretty insightful.
I am reading into Glen's statements (I said so in the post), so no I can't point to anything firmer.
I would like to see more evidence, though. Your first link talks about two known incidents - it would be good to have more information so we can tell who is right without speculation. The real situation may be closer to what I wrote, the WSJ extrapolation from two incidents, or something completely different.
We'd be better off with more facts.
You slam him, yet neglect to mention you'd be there with him asking him to pass the bag of Cheetos. Hell, I'd probably be there too. If you think you have no ego, you have a very big ego.
And France didn't so much sympathize as want to screw over the English holdings in the Americas after the French and Indian war.
Really? We have gone into hostile hell holes for oil before why wouldn't Russia for the same reason Alaska too has oil and gold remember.
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
If this is true, it would be huge. Citizens don't count for much in terms of US policy decisions, but an unfair boost to chosen businesses would tick off every other business in the US and abroad - the economic ramifications would be nothing short of tectonic.
I hate to be the cynic, but no, it wouldn't be huge. Politics has become the greatest spectator sport of the 21st century. Everyone has an opinion about what's wrong, but no one's willing to act on it enough to create substantial change.
We nearly hanged Nixon (and Ford for pardoning him) for Watergate. We have bigger scandals than Watergate happening today, scandals involving the usurption of our civil liberties by our own government, but no one's doing anything about it except complain. Like the boiling frog, we've become so acclimiated to these changes that I doubt we'll be able to leap out of the situation before it kills us.
I remember something that happened years ago uncannily like this whole Snowden affair.
Remember a decade back, when there was a guy running for POTUS as a decorated war hero at a time we were involved in two wars? The other side made some rediculous attacks on his war record. So did he react like a war hero? Perhaps attack his assailants in some way? Heck no! He sat around for months taking no action other than whining impotently about the lack of help from his opponent who wasn't even (provably) directly involved.
This is pretty much exactly how we've been handling this whole Snowden affair. Did we just send folks out to arrest him? No. So did we instead just quitely bide our time waiting for him to try to move to some non-shithole country so we can arrest him (in the meantime, leaving him effectively in a large jail)? Nope. We just sit on our ass for months whining impotently that Russia, who we tweak at every opportunity, should go out of their way to help us. Funny how similar these situations are.
So about that incompetent POTUS candidate...I wonder whatever happened to him.
I don't think we've hit that tipping point "yet." I still have hope that we never will. You're correct in that things have changed. What it took then and what it would take now are different animals.
I was making a specific point though, which you've highlighted, and which escaped a lot of other people, I think. The people who did what they did in 1776 would not stand for what our government is doing to/against us now. They fought for a LOT more than the garbage we're sucking down willingly now. Our government is completely off base and way outside the lines of what should be considered acceptable.
They're acting like the rotten kids who get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and then throw themselves on the floor screaming in rage at their parents, because they hope their show of emotion will distract from the sin they just commited. We're being led by a pile of toddlers.
I trust their constitution more than the crap any politician since then would do. Have you seen the sickening declarations of rights most governments have? "Flowery praise for right ABC, except..." where the exception is crafted to continue business as usual. Loopholes big enough for a truck because they were designed that way.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Your first comment really didn't make sense. Now there's enough context to see the point you're making - and sure enough someone else in the thread said the same, and not as a joke. Sigh.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
You slam him, yet neglect to mention you'd be there with him asking him to pass the bag of Cheetos. Hell, I'd probably be there too. If you think you have no ego, you have a very big ego.
All of you guys can share my Cheetos when you sign my cold, dead online petition. That'll show 'em.
I am not a crackpot.
I don't think Obama/Biden have kept any of those listed promises. If that's not a giant cockslap to the face of Americans, I don't know what is.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Well he turned 30. So I guess Obama will be scrambling the jets anyway.
He already did. He just used French jets was all. Remember Uruguay?
Sorry, but your point is both wrong and irrelevant. The problems we see today are not just 13 years old, but go back much further. Your ignorant claim requires only a few hours of study to resolve. Go get some books and read!
Arguing that Bush was worse than Obama, or attempting to place ownership at all, is the type of idiocy that we simply don't need currently. Not only is it wrong, but the argument distracts from what we must do to correct things.
By the way, the statements regarding trying to place blame goes to both of you.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
You're also forgetting that the ones fomenting, organizing, and bankrolling the rebellion were wealthy landowners who were not part of the English aristocracy and felt like they were being shafted by the English with taxes and a whole other bag of injustices. Yes, it was fought by the peasants, but it was supported by the wealthy. Do you think the wealthy have ANY reason to complain about the current state of affairs?
What a shock to see an anonymous person make a false claim in an ad hominem attack. No, not really...
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
I sometimes get the impression that a president, or a leader in general, serves as a lightning rod for criticism. Kind of like building shitty products, and instead of fixing them, creating a complaints department to be yelled at.
-- Using the preview button since 2005
Let's not forget that the US government publicised the fact that it could listen to satellite phones and, specifically Bin Laden's conversations. Was anyone punished for that leak?
Perhaps Nixon was right when he claimed that, "When the president does it, it's not illegal"?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
That strawman collapsed under the amount of weight you tried to put on him.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
going to go on the run? Snowden should be sitting here enjoying American freedom, while the entire administration is being probed and shut down. remember, Barack Obama is responsible for much greater crimes than just PRISM and the electronic communications monitoring. think energy weapons, secret rape, and secret torture with electromagnetic weapons.
http://www.obamasweapon.com/
Why wouldn't you look up the text of the actual law?
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/espionageact.htm
1D- Whoever, lawfully or unlawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blue print, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defence, wilfully communicates or transmits or attempts to communicate or transmit the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;
The original bill specifies a 2 year sentence for violating that, but I have read that the Snowden is facing 10 years under that charge. It's entirely possible that the law was amended in the century since it was enacted.
It is Obama and the Executive Branch's job to enforce existing law. They're doing that.
Perjury is against existing law. When can we expect prosecutions of the DNI for perjuring himself in front of Congress?
The 4th amendment is also existing law, and Obama isn't enforcing that one either. It's clear at this point that Obama's oath to defend the Constitution is completely broken, and he deserves impeachment at best.
Whether or not Snowden gets punished for breaking the law matters much less than whether or not Obama gets punished for breaking the highest law of the land. He won't, and that is how we know the rule of law is meaningless in the United States.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Have you ever heard of flouridation of water, Mandrake?
I am officially gone from
Am I to be shocked that you don't know the definition of "expect"? Naw, that's not a shock to me either. I'm willing to bet that you can go 0 for 3, and "no" I have no problem showing your intellectual failure.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
I guess I have read too much or too little about the "Snowden Issue". I can't find where he disclosed anything vital. As far as I know he didn't sell any military secrets (troop locations & make up). No selling of weapons, defensive or offensive. I also can't find where he sold any cryptographic or cryptoanalytic technology. As far as I can tell, he told people that an agency of the U.S. Government was collecting information about communications of US citizens and Non-US citizens without their knowledge. How does this make him a traitor?
I would have a sig but I am too busy updating programs and restarting my computer
My guess is that Snowden is side-show in overall USA-Russia relations, albeit a good pretext for both Obama and Putin. Syria is propably the most important issue impacting USA-Russia relations. Anti-ballistic missile shield aimed squarely at Russia might be another one.
Suppose that you have in your neighbourhood someone with a lot of weapons. Then the maid tells you, and gives you evidence, that he stole from you and other people you know, but you don't do anything, because he have weapons, and people could get hurt. But the maid that warned you know from a lot of more things that he did, several probably worse than the things you know already, like, don't know, killed a bunch of friends and have them buried in the backyard, kidnapped some childs and have them enclosed in the basement, and/or that accident that killed your grampa, was him, and wasn't an accident. Would you prefer to keep ignoring what he is doing and risking to be you, or your children their next victims or knowing, reporting him to the police or at least be prepared for when he targets you? You think that things will improve just ignoring what he does?
A side issue: material classified by the US Government is by definition the property of the US Government. It's one thing for a newspaper to publish classified material that someone has given them. But, to retain material which they reasonably know to be - ah - misappropriated makes them knowingly in possession of stolen property. In this case, Mr. Greenwald appears to be saying that he, personally, is in possession. How long will it be until he finds out which subsections of 18 USC he'll be charged with breaking?
Luke, help me take this mask off
"With national bankruptcy looming, politicians from both parties continue to make multi-trillion dollar promises of "free" goods from the government, and hardly a soul wonders if we can still afford to have troops in - this is not a misprint - 130 countries around the world. All of this is going to come to an end sooner or later, because financial reality is going to make itself felt in very uncomfortable ways. But instead of thinking about what this means for how we conduct our foreign and domestic affairs, our chattering classes seem incapable of speaking in anything but the emptiest platitudes, when they can be bothered to address serious issues at all. Fundamental questions like this, and countless others besides, are off the table in our mainstream media, which focuses our attention on trivialities and phony debates as we march toward oblivion.
This is the deadening consensus that crosses party lines, that dominates our major media, and that is strangling the liberty and prosperity that were once the birthright of Americans. Dissenters who tell their fellow citizens what is really going on are subject to smear campaigns that, like clockwork, are aimed at the political heretic. Truth is treason in the empire of lies. -- Dr Ron Paul - "Revolution: A Manifesto"
What happened so far:
The US government
* violated the privacy of Americans and foreigners by collecting information on all their communications, regardless of whether they are being investigated or not
* executes people in foreign countries without any trial
* tortures people in foreign countries without any trial
* invades foreign countries by fabricating evidence
* pursues journalists and whistle-blowers through all possible legal and diplomatic channels of pressure
* arbitrarily withdraws the passport of their own citizens without any legal process
* arbitrarily withdraws the right to fly in the US without any legal process
* demands extradition, trials of foreigners and fair treatment based on international law, but refuses it to others
Then, when these things turn up
* nobody is being held accountable [e.g. Bush, Rumsfeld]
* no compensation for the victims [e.g. torture victims, invaded countries]
* no guarantees it will not happen again
You can do whatever you want within your borders, and choose the rules you want to live by. But don't take your stupid decisions out on everyone else. And for the love of god, EU & UN, stand up to this bully.
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
If they're smart they'll break up the data from least to most damaging and release it in that order...the more the US resists decency, the worse their reputation will get until the Americans (or hell, other countries) get together to kick some ass.
That's a dangerous strategy, though. It may end up just inducing a tolerance in the people if the damage is ramped up slowly like that. Already, we're seeing signs of that with the DEA's admission that systematic perjury and the outright fabrication of evidence is "a bedrock concept" in their cases. The public's response to that has been pretty mild and the whole thing seems to have blown over already. I'm not sure exactly what would be shocking enough to provoke a response from the public at this point.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
The American Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, as designed is totally broken as it is impossible to follow so the politicians have to ignore it which becomes a habit along with courts that rule that, eg "Congress will make no law" actually means something completely different.
Look at Snowden, no-one is bitching that he is hiding in Russia due to practicing his first amendment rights, everyone agrees that when the Constitution says something that actually it means something else. Free speech except in the case of child porn, national security, bad words etc.
My Country wrote our Bill of Rights (and the rest of our constitution) to avoid the American mistake of writing one that sounds good but is routinely broken which just encourages the politicians to break it more instead of changing it. Shit they couldn't even have been bothered to amend it to make the Air Force legal, an amendment that would have passed easily.
A law or constitution that can not be followed is worthless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
The 4th Amendment is clear and understandable. It took twisted SCOTUS logic to eviscerate it.
destroy the THIRD PARTY DOCTRINE and everything the NSA is doing is suddenly illegal.
The Supreme Court of the US has basically confused "perfect information security" with "reasonable expectation of privacy" over the last 30 or 40 years.
https://www.casetext.com/case/in-re-application-of-the-united-states-for-an-order-pursuant-to-18-usc-167-2703d/ Scroll down to page 133.
In other words, because a 3d party MIGHT breach confidentiality, the Feds can FORCE them to breach confidentiality.
Funny thing though, if the NSA was a person, it would have waived its privacy interest in the Snowden documents by sharing them with a 3d party (Booz Allen), but it doesn't feel that way, even threatening Congressman Grayson into stopping printing the slides for his staff -- reason? Still Classified. One rule for them, one rule for us.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
The American peasants of that time were wealthy landholders compared to the European peasants. So much so that it is hard to make the statement that you did. Because although it is true, it is not the whole story.
How dare you insult the Glorious Leader. Messiah Obummer is bringing the world hope and change.
I'm getting tired of this strawman. Only ultra-conversations believe that liberals worship Obama. Most that I've heard from consider him fairly disappointing, but they don't have anyone else to support in the election.
The Brazilian government is showing much more anger in public than it is showing in private discussions with the U.S. government. All governments are doing this, even in Europe.
"especially in Europe" may have been more appropriate. The Evo Morales plane story shed light on how European governments are now US pets. Que se vayan todos.
The US has the UN in their pocket. Forget about that one. They leverage other stuff to get the UN votes they need, or don't.
Damn right they would, a black man calling himself president of all things. Though 1776 congress would have to consider giving him a flogging then get to work finding his owner, since an educated, well spoken and presented house slave like that must still be worth a lot to his master.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
People still buy Boeing after they ripped off Airbus designs at the US taxpayers expense and were found guilty in court of doing it.
Revolution will happen when the people who have been systematically divided have something to fight for in solidarity.
It is every citizen's duty to report crimes they know about, ESPECIALLY if the authorities are the criminals.
You can do whatever you want within your borders, and choose the rules you want to live by. But don't take your stupid decisions out on everyone else. And for the love of god, EU & UN, stand up to this bully.
While it is true what you wrote a lot of these things were done by proxy. Supposedly to keep their hands clean and stay on the right side of the law(whichever side that may be).The result is that a lot of other countries are complicit.
Most of the Western World has cooperated with the US in their spying. Because ter'rists OHMIGOD!
A lot of the torturing was done by third party countries that were not so squeamish with CIA officials(or propably inofficials, heh) reaped the results.
We are pretty much all fucked.
20 minutes into the future
Even tho the POTUS has a lot of power because he is head of the executive branch and head of state(most countries keep those separate) he has very little legislative power. In fact he is unable to accomplish a lot of worthwhile things without substantial cooperation by both houses.
So your assessment is propably quite right. I always wondered why anybody would go to great pains to get that job. It doesn't seem to be worth it.
20 minutes into the future
It is every citizen's duty to report crimes they know about, ESPECIALLY if the authorities are the criminals.
Report to who?
Suppose that you have in your neighbourhood someone with a lot of weapons. Then the maid tells you, and gives you evidence, that he stole from you and other people you know, but you don't do anything, because he have weapons, and people could get hurt. But the maid that warned you know from a lot of more things that he did, several probably worse than the things you know already, like, don't know, killed a bunch of friends and have them buried in the backyard, kidnapped some childs and have them enclosed in the basement, and/or that accident that killed your grampa, was him, and wasn't an accident. Would you prefer to keep ignoring what he is doing and risking to be you, or your children their next victims or knowing, reporting him to the police or at least be prepared for when he targets you? You think that things will improve just ignoring what he does?
Unless you know someone bigger with even more weapons to go to for protection then you can't do anything like that if you don't have weapons. Glenn Greenwald can't do a damn thing to stop the NSA.
What happened so far:
The US government
* violated the privacy of Americans and foreigners by collecting information on all their communications, regardless of whether they are being investigated or not
* executes people in foreign countries without any trial
* tortures people in foreign countries without any trial
* invades foreign countries by fabricating evidence
* pursues journalists and whistle-blowers through all possible legal and diplomatic channels of pressure
* arbitrarily withdraws the passport of their own citizens without any legal process
* arbitrarily withdraws the right to fly in the US without any legal process
* demands extradition, trials of foreigners and fair treatment based on international law, but refuses it to others
Then, when these things turn up
* nobody is being held accountable [e.g. Bush, Rumsfeld]
* no compensation for the victims [e.g. torture victims, invaded countries]
* no guarantees it will not happen again
You can do whatever you want within your borders, and choose the rules you want to live by. But don't take your stupid decisions out on everyone else. And for the love of god, EU & UN, stand up to this bully.
I don't believe journalists have any power to stop intelligence agencies or governments from doing anything.
Glenn Greenwald is completely ineffective. Snowden leaking to journalists will be completely ineffective. The only way to stop a government is with a government.
You can do whatever you want within your borders, and choose the rules you want to live by. But don't take your stupid decisions out on everyone else. And for the love of god, EU & UN, stand up to this bully.
While it is true what you wrote a lot of these things were done by proxy. Supposedly to keep their hands clean and stay on the right side of the law(whichever side that may be).The result is that a lot of other countries are complicit.
Most of the Western World has cooperated with the US in their spying. Because ter'rists OHMIGOD!
A lot of the torturing was done by third party countries that were not so squeamish with CIA officials(or propably inofficials, heh) reaped the results.
We are pretty much all fucked.
So what is the point of scaring people by giving dirty secrets to the media? The media can't stop any of it.
So what is the point of scaring people by giving dirty secrets to the media? The media can't stop any of it.
That's why the media is supposed to be the fourth estate. Keep the people informed so they vote with their...votes.
That's the theory. ATM the US media is in dire straits. Either they give the consumers what they want. Which seems to be news about people, bite-sized snappy headlines and barely justifiable opinions. Background information seems to take the back seat. Which is why bloggers and Twitter are such a big threat since journalism now has such a low quality standard that anybody can do it. And the other side of the "informed public" medal is the public. Voters tend to judge their officials by their words, not by their deeds. Take Obama for instance. While campaigning for his first term he said some very nice things. But now he is just another lawyer who made it big in politics. Guantanamo Bay still is synonymous with a travesty of justice. Extra-judicial killings via drones has become worse. He started a war on whistleblowers(but not on corporate whistleblowers, the DOJ still hands out a nice percentage of the takings to them). Federal law still is an overcriminalized vague mess and it is becoming worse. Foreign relations are still damaged. And they are not damaged because they were caught. They are damaged for what they did. He faced a major rebellion in the house over the NSA spying affair and yet he has the gall to make light of it on some late night TV talk show. That performance propably earned him a couple of brownie points with the public but not by doing something about the sad state the US currently is in.
Obama is a major disappointment. Everybody had assumed he knew better than that. For goodness sake, he has a strong background in constitutional law. And yet right under his nose all of the above happened. If W feigned ignorance on all that everybody would concur. Obama does not have that luxury.
20 minutes into the future
If the US has nothing to hide, why are they so worried what Snowden could tell others?
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
Since the government is corrupt, report it to We the people.
Why is property in quotes?
The shenanigans started early, but the opposition was a lot stronger then.
That information needs to be released because the powers that be in American government and the military-industrial complex are getting away with murder, quite literally. They're committing crimes that the constitution was originally formulated to prevent.
They've taken the roles of "private citizen" and "public servant" and reversed the meanings so that we can find out all about what a "private" citizen gets up to, but we have /no/ idea what "public servants" are doing.
They lie, they misdirect, they steal, they kill, start wars, violate international law, and they make us wonder if Ed Snowden should be tried as a "traitor", and good folks such as yourself to wonder why we're all so excited about this.
The bottom line is that they are trying every single thing they can (most of which I expect we don't know about) to hide this, to distract us all from their crimes, and to shift blame onto a twenty something instead of with the people who ordered the crimes in the first place.
"Run, Forrest! Run away! Hurry!"
The main reason that I know this is wrong in moral terms? The fact that I'm worried about expressing my opinion because it differs from that of the criminals in Washington.
Shame on them for doing it, but *triple* shame on us for letting them do it.
-Ken
Snowden's name being released was probably the single greatest gift anyone could have given Obama. Snowden is a distraction, pure and simple. Why he leaked them does not matter. The only thing that matters is what the documents show. By coming forward, Snowden actually gave the media something to focus on other than the recent events of USG. If his intent was simply to inform the populace and start a ball rolling, he actually did damage to his cause by revealing his name so early in the process. Between Benghazi and the IRS goings on, Obama and his administration were already on the hook. It kind of makes you wonder (in a silly tin foil hat kind of way), if Snowden's name needed to be released at all. If the documents are legitimate, is it possible that they would have withstood scrutiny on their own without attaching the name of the whistleblower? Release information concerning activities government agencies have been doing legally under current laws that will spark lots of debate, piss off many, and keep the media wrapped up in an orgasmic emotional frenzy that can not be directly tied to those already in trouble over situations that can be directly linked to them. But since this is so big, focus on the other issues is lost. At then end of the day, what will actually change in regards to the NSA, FISA, etc.? I'd put my money on slap on the wrist(a few heads will roll), public apology, a few people getting up on soapboxes to get elected, and then everything goes back under the cover of darkness. Yeah.... It's actually quite easy to take the trip down that rabbit hole. It's easy to see the benefits. Alright.... flame away.....
Seems that youtube took down the video gave the link to. Try again?
So what is the point of scaring people by giving dirty secrets to the media? The media can't stop any of it.
That's why the media is supposed to be the fourth estate. Keep the people informed so they vote with their...votes.
That's the theory. ATM the US media is in dire straits. Either they give the consumers what they want. Which seems to be news about people, bite-sized snappy headlines and barely justifiable opinions. Background information seems to take the back seat. Which is why bloggers and Twitter are such a big threat since journalism now has such a low quality standard that anybody can do it. And the other side of the "informed public" medal is the public. Voters tend to judge their officials by their words, not by their deeds. Take Obama for instance. While campaigning for his first term he said some very nice things. But now he is just another lawyer who made it big in politics. Guantanamo Bay still is synonymous with a travesty of justice. Extra-judicial killings via drones has become worse. He started a war on whistleblowers(but not on corporate whistleblowers, the DOJ still hands out a nice percentage of the takings to them). Federal law still is an overcriminalized vague mess and it is becoming worse. Foreign relations are still damaged. And they are not damaged because they were caught. They are damaged for what they did. He faced a major rebellion in the house over the NSA spying affair and yet he has the gall to make light of it on some late night TV talk show. That performance propably earned him a couple of brownie points with the public but not by doing something about the sad state the US currently is in.
Obama is a major disappointment. Everybody had assumed he knew better than that. For goodness sake, he has a strong background in constitutional law. And yet right under his nose all of the above happened. If W feigned ignorance on all that everybody would concur. Obama does not have that luxury.
Please cite the Constitution. What specific quote says the media is the fourth estate?
Even if the Constitution said that, the media has absolutely no power and no authority to make arrests. What good is telling the media if the media cannot arrest anyone?
Russia has so much of their own "Alaska", they can barely keep it under control.
US Administration is seeking Obedience, not Peace from Rest of the World.
Casteism
Please cite the Constitution. What specific quote says the media is the fourth estate?
Even if the Constitution said that, the media has absolutely no power and no authority to make arrests. What good is telling the media if the media cannot arrest anyone?
I haven't got a clue what you are on about. Who said something about arresting somebody?
Media is there to keep the other 3 estates honest and the public informed. That's their job. And that's what I said. And because they fill in that role they are colloquially called the fourth estate.
20 minutes into the future
Ohh you mean like the Spanish American war? Surely you don't think the US would use it's military might to orchestrate a coup and force other countries into agreements like the 99 year lease of the Panama canal zone? Nothing new here, unfortunately.
Good repost of all things MoveON. The fact that you can summarize complex issues in one line indicates you are unable or unwilling to think on your own. Try posting to Rush's or MS/NBC sites. They are your kind.
One thing that seems to be left out of this debate. We, the voters of the US elect our government. We believe what MS/NBC or Fox (take your pick) tell us. We substitute real debate for screaming heads, because it is more fun to watch while we drink beer. For those who blame Bush. What, you put up Al Gore and then the hapless John Kerry and expect to win? DNC is run by morons. For those who Blame Obama. Obama can talk, that is all. Has no experience running anything, and has never even had a real job for christsake. Yet two competent leaders, McCain (tough surviver of a POW camp) and Romney (who ran an Olympics) couldn't even handle Obama in a simple debate? RNC has their head up their anal cavity. So, you expect that the IRS will NOT be used for political extortion? You expect that the NSA will NOT be used for political advantage? We are getting the government we deserve from the politicians we trust.
Yeah, it does seem odd. Certainly I think Obama squandered the initial wave of support he had. Seeing things from the outside, and knowing he can't just pull levers to change whatever he wants, I remain largely disappointed by his administration. Some good stuff done, but right now he seems to be lurching well in to becoming president of an Orwellian nightmare.
-- Using the preview button since 2005
Did you type that with a straight face? Where's the criminal prosecutions for Bush's/ATT&T's violations of FISA? The immunity passed in 2008 was civil, not criminal.
Reagan and the first Bush sent almost a thousand bankers to jail over the S&L crisis. The mortgage bubble was 70 times as large, and fraudulent documents have been used to steal homes from hundreds of thousands if not millions of people.
The only person to have gone to jail for Bush's torture program was one of the men who confirmed it's existence, John Kiriakou. When the U.N. Convention Against Torture, proudly signed by that commie pinko Ronald Reagan, requires the prosecution of those who commit torture.
So, I ask again....did you type that with a straight face? And if you really want to hang your hat on the Espionage Act of 1917, then where the hell are the prosecutions of Rove et all for outing Valerie Plame?
Acting as if this is just about the rule of law is laughable, when you look at all the laws they are either violating or ignoring.
We've mentally tortured one whisteblower (Manning), upgraded petty trespassing and vandalism charges into a terrorism prosecution against a nun over 80 years old, and planned on shooting OWS leaders in the head, if necessary.
yes, I have great teeth as well, thanks!
BTW: it's fluoridation, just sayin'