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FISC Chief Judge: We Can't Effectively Oversee the NSA
An anonymous reader writes "According to the Washington Post: 'The leader of the secret court that is supposed to provide critical oversight of the government's vast spying programs said that its ability to do so is limited and that it must trust the government to report when it improperly spies on Americans. The chief judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court said the court lacks the tools to independently verify how often the government's surveillance breaks the court's rules that aim to protect Americans' privacy. Without taking drastic steps, it also cannot check the veracity of the government's assertions that the violations its staff members report are unintentional mistakes.' President Obama said in June, 'We also have federal judges that we've put in place who are not subject to political pressure. They've got lifetime tenure as federal judges, and they're empowered to look over our shoulder at the executive branch to make sure that these programs aren't being abused.' Not so much, Mr. President."
That the NSA won't get their asses kicked.
I have finally figured out why the statue holding 'the scales of justice' wore a blindfold! ;-)
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
One by one the cornerstones of represtitive government get kicked out of place and are used to pave the road to totalitarianism.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Translation: The whole thing is a monumentally tragic, Constitution-violating fuck up, brought to you by two successive Administrations and a Congress that couldn't give a flying fuck about the Constitution.
What a pathetic situation.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
nothing to see here, we are not doing anything illegal.
i wish I can use that same logic for IRS
I can't see my data! Help, I have a bag over my head and I can't see my data. What should I do!
Some settling may occur during posting.
we haven't had checks and balances in our government since the Gore V Bush decision, when Bush's dad's appointed supreme court ruled it's more important to abide by Florida's arbitrary date to count their votes than to count all the fucking votes using as much time as is necessary to insure an accurate count. why the fuck would anyone trust the US courts now? especially after the "corporations are people" decision.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
I seen something similar to this back during the 2001 Leonids. A large fireball crossed the sky then broke up into 2 smaller chunks and they continued on with their own own streaks. It was the most incredible meteor I ever seen. That whole shower was the best.
NSA: Who, us? Nevar!
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
So, your honor, please tell us why you didn't bring these concerns to our attention before somebody with more guts than you'll ever have brought the matter up?
Hell, you probably could have brought these concerns up without even revealing anything classified, or breaking any rules. They probably didn't remember to make it a state secret that you have no oversight powers worth mentioning, so it would have been entirely licit for you to complain about that.
We might as well be honest here: Every day that you knew you had no oversight; but remained as a FISC justice, much less chief justice, you knowingly operated as a rubber stamp and a pitiful facade of rule of law. A rubber stamp for a program that you cannot have been stupid enough to think was entirely on the up-and-up. Unimpressive. Cowardly. Unworthy of your office.
the fisc is for supervising fisa, as feinstein notes. the report detailed violations under eo12333. feinstein also notes the need to step up oversight of eo12333 by the intel committees, *not* the fisc court
"The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office." -- U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 1. [emphasis added]
I think it is very much arguable that the FISA court judges, having "rubber stamped" nearly all surveillance requests, can be said to have violated "good behaviour".
"'We also have federal judges that we've put in place who are not subject to political pressure." but turn up with a suitcase stuffed with cash and they will set the wheels in motion to destroy your competitors.
I got to the chocolate box before you, that's why the hard ones have teeth marks.
They should just appoint a special investigator.
They could give the investigator over-arching extra-legal authority, just like the agency he'd be investigating.
I hear Edward Snowden has some experience in this area, and is currently in need of a job...
Since when has that EVER been grounds for defense? That would've helped a lot in 6th grade when I set that trash bin on fire... Unintentionally. Jesus, they should have just claimed ignorance, a least then they'd have the understanding of %90 of the population.
Oh, I'm sure they'll pick someone from the NSA who will report to the NSA, and the report will be sealed and we'll get to watch a press conference where the President intones very seriously "I won't comment on the contents of the report, but suffice to say you can trust me and there's nothing to worry about."
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I don't want to intrude on the Obama bashing, but just to be very clear, every single Democratic and Republican leader has also been repeating this "I knowz the factz, for realz yall, and trust me it's all good."
A President saying "trust me... 'cause you have to" is not newsworthy. The fact that there's an fscking conspiracy by a cabal of United States Congressional leaders to keep the public in the dark is simply frightening. I mean... absolutely fscking frightening. I'm sure it's happened before, especially during the Cold War, but that's no excuse, because that was generations ago, and I'd like to think we've become more civilized.
The Bush years were so distressing to me that I actually went to and graduated from a top tier law school, in the middle of my career, just to wrap my head around our government. But what's happened in the past few months is absolutely blowing my mind. From the President, to Congressional leaders, down to the army of citizen apologists... I'm just gobsmacked.
Who watches The Watchmen. By which, of course, I mean who has the DVD of The Watchmen and watches it? I thought it was pretty good myself. The montage during the opening credits was particularly well done.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
Every major nation has so-called 'Star-Chambers'- groups of people usually drawn from all dominant groups amongst the elites who control the activities of many entities that are beyond the common knowledge of the sheeple. The members of the Star Chambers are NOT elected, but will include representatives from all the current major political parties. The common excuse for theses supra-democratic bodies is "continuity". In other words, freedom from the political vagaries caused by allowing the sheeple to THINK their ability to vote once every few years actually makes any real difference to the course of a nation.
NSA projects will stretch for decades. Each American fixed-term dictator that the Yanks call "President" has political interests that last for far less than a single decade at best. The Star Chamber system counters the pressure for short-term thinking in the political decision making.
Star Chambers are, of course, above the Law. Their members are usually people of 'good reputation' from politics, the military, civil service, religious bodies, business, law and science. They consider themselves superior to the sheeple, and therefore in a much better position to make those choices that will affect the lives of the sheeple for decades to come. The Star Chamber system is an obscenity, but almost impossible to displace, for obvious reasons.
We live in times when the abilities of a fully realised NSA are too good to resist.
-full surveillance of the population means real-time feedback describing the current mindset of any definable part of the population. This, combined with centralised control of the mainstream media provides the best possible feedback loop used to perfect propaganda campaigns.
-full surveillance also means you are aware of emerging grass-roots leaders and movements before the people involved comprehend their importance. This allows such people to be targeted for co-opting or extermination. No bottom-up threat (to the established elite) is EVER possible in a nation watched by a body like the NSA
-full surveillance also allows the gathering of blackmail material useful to coerce people in positions of influence or power. A single act of infidelity identified by the NSA, for instance, can ensure that individual 'gives' his support to Obama's plans to attack Iran.
The Star Chamber that actually oversees the NSA is never, ever going to turn down the opportunity to maximise the abilities listed above. No matter who you are stupid enough to think is in power, these abilities will serve them perfectly. Those that serve in the Star Chamber honestly think they have the best interests of the USA in mind, and by that I mean, of course, the best interests of those Humans that matter (here's a clue- that list does not include ordinary citizens).
You should know that historically, Star Chambers have proven themselves to be extremely vulnerable to manipulation by powerful, very NON-representative individuals or groups. The wide 'church' of membership that supposedly makes a Star Chamber reasonable is very very easily subverted.
Please research Bill Gates' recent operations, including his partnership with the NSA to create the Xbox One spy platform, and his obscene inBloom (company name chosen as a pedophile's code term for a child ready to be targeted) every child database currently being rolled out in NY and other locations in the USA. Gates is one that sits in several of the Star Chambers in the USA.
Get more spies of course. Call it the NSA Safety Agency.
The government points at the FISC and says they have the responsibility and independence. The FISC points at the government and says they have the resources. And the NSA says they 'only' collect 1.6% of internet traffic, nothing to see here, move along.
Well at least the NSA has broken the code of "Never Say Anything". It's not much but given their culture of Omerta-like silence, it's something.
In the big picture though, I think we've got it confirmed that the oversight of the secret agencies is inadequate. When they start publicly disagreeing about who is responsible for what, who said what (*cough* James Clapper *cough*), and the only thing they agree on is that the whistle blowers are low-down dirty varmints, we've hit a nerve.
Hell, I figured that out just from watching a few seasons of Burn Notice.
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I'm not, because Congress long ago abandoned a key role as a check on the Executive in favor of near constant partisan bickering. The end result is little more than a bitching chamber, where the party on top pushes its agenda, the other party consumes itself in trying to fuck up that agenda and get to the top. They are basically blind to all other considerations, and a pure political animals, squared off into two warring tribes, who have no sense of civic duty, no sense of morality or any sense of their purpose.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
as a number of the nasty KKK creeps discovered when they were charged with such violations after state juries failed to convict. Therefore is there any reason why those making the 'human errors' can't be charged under similar legislation?
I propose Kenneth Starr.
A part of the US government that has proven it's unable to do its job?
INCONCEIVABLE!!!
We also have federal judges that we've put in place who are not subject to political pressure. They've got lifetime tenure as federal judges
Don't we have entire government departments dedicated to shortening lifetimes as efficiently as possible? Even if it's illegal and during times of peace?
Seriously, if the system of laws that enabled our society to thrive and exist thus far no longer apply to the people entrusted to enforce and protect them..... we have a serious f**king problem on our hands.
The president has a license to murder people and the means to spy on them with impunity. Outside of judicial oversight for the most part. For the safety of you and the nation of course.... Does this bother anyone but me?
I don't remember voting for a King or Emperor.
So did Jr and Little-Dicked Cheney
If you can't oversee a government agency then it is not remotely accountable to the people. If it isn't accountable to the people it is a Praetorian Guard capable of hijacking democracy. Clearly then you must destroy it.
Your local judge also lacks the means to independently verify that your local police seek warrants, tell the truth about the evidence they have that supports probable cause, etc.
If you cannot effectively control something, shut it down. Keep it shut down till you know you can control effectively.
"Stupid is as Stupid does."
Essentially they are judicial precogs without the foreknowledge.
.. because Americans do not protest enough, despite the
effective monitoring and guidance being almost nil - of course,
it will continue. What will happen is that it will drag America down.
In particular, Germany is already adding ISP customers. But
it is more general than that. America used to be 'the best town'.
If that perception is no longer true, and, for instance, the ...
dollar goes down, there happens to be
a wider world
John Eadie [JE46] http://www.c-art.com `one of these days the dogs aren't going to eat the dog food' - Bill Joy
[The NSA] must trust the government to report when it improperly spies on Americans.
NO. What the NSA should trust is that the US Constitution overrides any other law in place. Something isn't "technically legal" just because it hasn't been ruled unconstitutional, that's just an excuse for getting away with criminal activities.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
And that changes the fact that Obummer lied, how?
Face it, the worst elected government you've ever had ran the country better than when it was colonies owned by a King and privately owned corporations.
We already know that the NSA routinely violates the fourth amendment, and has committed billions of counts of illegal wiretapping. It's beyond reforming, its very existence is an attack on the bill of rights.
Shut the fuckers DOWN.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Abuse. The bigger government is, the more opportunity it has to abuse it's authority. And power corrupts while absolute power really does corrupt absolutely. That's what we are seeing here.
Take a look folks - this is why we call some of them LiberTARDians.
two other checks and balances missing from Congress:
-the Senate became (or became viewed as) another group of representatives elected by the public, rather than a semi-leadership house intented to counter and restrain the self-indulgent wishes of the Houseof Representitive. Remember, they used to be appointed (rather, was left up to individual states, most of whom appointed them via the Legislature...this is also another weakening of the state legislatures as well); only the House was direct representitive of the voters. A Senate-not-a-representive then acts as a restraint on the public's whims of fancy, so when the public says "give us all tons of chocolate!" and the house is obligated (in theory as representtives) to say "give the people chocolate", the senate acts as a counter saying "but you'll be all night/we cant afford it/its not good for you". the idea being that things would only be passed when both houses agree on the need for something. now that is largely gone, and the senate is simply 100 more representatives catering to the public.
-the party "system". loyalty isnt to the public, outside of election time, but to the party ideals. rather than the representiitve align himself to the public and represent their interests/wishes, they instead align themselves to a party, and the partys make the mjor policy decisions, and the public is expected to choose a party to side with, along with everything else they stand for. its backwards. its hard to legally stop parties (free association and whatnot) but like many meta-organization they soon take on lives of their own, and no longer pay heed to the people that originally brought them into existence, with the result being representitives that don't represent their voters.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.