Joining Lavabit Et Al, Groklaw Shuts Down Because of NSA Dragnet

An anonymous reader was the first to write with news that Groklaw is shutting down: "There is now no shield from forced exposure. Nothing in that parenthetical thought list is terrorism-related, but no one can feel protected enough from forced exposure any more to say anything the least bit like that to anyone in an email, particularly from the U.S. out or to the U.S. in, but really anywhere. You don't expect a stranger to read your private communications to a friend. And once you know they can, what is there to say? Constricted and distracted. That's it exactly. That's how I feel. So. There we are. The foundation of Groklaw is over. I can't do Groklaw without your input. I was never exaggerating about that when we won awards. It really was a collaborative effort, and there is now no private way, evidently, to collaborate." Why it's a big deal.

Comments

Where will this end?

[Anonymous Coward]

America used to be a free country and now where are we?

Re:Where will this end?

[SirGarlon]

America used to be a free country and now where are we?

At a defining crossroads. My fellow Americans, now is the worst possible moment to wimp out.

Re:Where will this end?

[Anonymous Coward]

It won't. Not until there is a war. And nobody wants a war.
So I guess the only thing to say is this: welcome to the new world.

I think the funnier thing is the gun nuts who were always going crazy about how they will defend themselves from a tyrannic Britain now face a much worse enemy and sit around doing fuck all because they know they lost already.
Yeah, you try shoot a tank with your peashooter. Good luck with that, son. Enjoy being shot with a drone in advance.

Cowards, spies, psychos and delusions, that is all America is now. No freedom here, Stranger.

Re:Where will this end?

[dmbasso]

Actually shutting down is fighting. It delivers a stronger message than just words.

Re:Where will this end?

[James Durie]

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever. "

Re:Where will this end?

[SirGarlon]

I feel PJ is making an important statement, more convincing than anything I've seen yet.

Re:Where will this end?

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially if that message is "You Win."

Re:Where will this end?

[BrokenHalo]

Pj, you gutless coward! Come back!

Given that PJ has been running Groklaw with almost no intermissions for just over 10 years, it's probably not fair to describe her as a gutless coward. If you can come up with a form of email encryption that you can guarantee won't be cracked within the next 5 years, then good luck with changing her mind about this decision.

If she were me, I would just be plain tired. There's only so much a committee of one can do.

Re:Where will this end?

[Noryungi]

Pj, you gutless coward! Come back!

Two points:

1) It's HER site. If she does not want to continue, for whatever reason, it's HER choice. Disagree with her? Create your own Groklaw.
2) Especially given the Lavabit precedent, I can understand her decision.

Remember: you may be secretly ordered to spy on your own users, and secretly prevented to even mention this to anyone - including your own lawyers - and threatened with criminal prosecution if you decide to do right thing and shut everything down. Big Brother wants to be able to watch you. All the time.

As for being a ''gutless coward'' (your words, not mine), try running a high-traffic, high-visibility web site for a while, with all the attendant legal problems and shenanigans (see above), and we will talk about it for while, mmmmmkay?

Re:Where will this end?

[thoth]

At a defining crossroads. My fellow Americans, now is the worst possible moment to wimp out.

But isn't that what all these sites that are shutting down are doing - wimping out?
I can understand Lavabit, but these others are just folding due to what exactly, uneasy feelings?

Re:Where will this end?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh come on, Americans are still free, just monitored. Being watched doesn't make you less free.

Re:Where will this end?

[alexgieg]

I feel PJ is making an important statement, more convincing than anything I've seen yet.

I don't find it convincing, particularly this bit: "there is now no private way, evidently, to collaborate". Of course there is. Setup a forum on Tor, Freenet or some other darknet and collaborate there, then publish the results on the open web. Groklaw has a very technical demographics, almost anyone interested will know how to participate.

Re:Where will this end?

[Thanshin]

You are much more free than before. Because you know more.

What you see is a forward movement.

Did you expect the power to just surrender to a future where they don't matter anymore?

As you know more and more. As you recover what is rightly yours. As you take over the control of your own country. They will fight back. And they will bite and tear down your houses searching for traitors. And they will destroy you, and put you in jails, and kill many of you.

But you will prevail.

Because freedom only moves one way.

You're scared because you're the first ones. There's only darkness ahead. But you shouldn't be, because behind that darkness is the future that will look back and cheer at you as the freedom fighters of this century.

Re:Where will this end?

[Captain Hook]

Maybe yes maybe no. However, if these 'peashooters' are so harmless, why does the state want to restrict them so much?

Because although they are pointless against a modern military (which is suppose to be the point of the right to bear arms), they are extremely dangerous when used against people not part of the modern military... people like your local community members, who seem to keep getting shot whether as a result of armed burgery, shooting rampages or stand your ground self-defense.

Re:Where will this end?

[BrokenHalo]

It won't. Not until there is a war. And nobody wants a war.

You must either be very young, or be living in a barrel.

It has been mentioned by observers outside the US, often enough to become a truism, that America is incapable of functioning without a war, whether declared or not. And history certainly shows that your illustrious leaders like nothing better than to start a nice shiny new war when the cracks in their domestic policy need papering over.

Re:Where will this end?

[shentino]

You don't have to be a dick about the "her site, her rules" stuff. We, as her readers, are entitled to express our opinions about the closure just as she is entitled to do as she sees fit.

Furthermore, she may well intend to serve our interests anyway, so our input as her readerbase would be welcome, presumably.

Re:Where will this end?

[BitZtream]

Seriously? There are already at least 2 published standards that can be used with little concern over being cracked any time soon when used properly. Theres absolutely no indication that SMIME or PGP are broken when using the proper algorithm and key sizes.

Re:Where will this end?

[F.Ultra]

And that would change what? Considering the number of ISP:s that is under the NSAs thumb, you can pretty much assume that all three nodes that you use in Tor is monitored by the NSA and such they can simply do traffic analysis based on time and size of data packets. I wouldn't be too surprised if they have the capcity to inject extra data at the source ISP (say that they monitor www.groklaw.org and thus injects a large amount of extra data in the reply from the server by injecting them at the ISP-level so even Groklaw won't see it) then they can track where that extra large packet went eventually in case they didn't have access to all three nodes but only the source and destination.

Re:Where will this end?

[Rockoon]

The reason that it gets this way is essentially a market failure.

The thing is while most people apply the idea of a market failure to asymmetric incentives in economics where an outcome could be a net negative for everyone as a whole but a net positive for all the principle players such as both the business and its customers, it also applies to all forms of governance.

In democratic or representative republic forms of governance, the personal investment required to be an informed voter is a cost that is much greater than the benefit of actually making an informed vote. Part of this is due to a lot of noise within the available information, but it also has to do with the number of people that themselves are uniformed .

The upshot of this is that other uninformed voters creates an incentive to be an uninformed voter yourself, a self-sustaining entirely rational population of uninformed voters.

Re:Where will this end?

[SirGarlon]

You estimate of Tor's privacy is higher than mine, and, evidently, PJ's.

Re:Where will this end?

[Sockatume]

Potential for harm and usefulness in performing an armed insurrection are rather orthogonal concepts. The state restricts babies from driving, but that's not because they'd pull some bitching Jason Statham stunts and take out helicopter gunships.

Re:Where will this end?

[MrNemesis]

What I can take away from this statement by PJ is that the powers that be already have their hands on the servers either by hook or by crook and although groklaw may be able to set up tor or any number of any other number of secure workarounds, the entire site is compromised at source, therefore making any further measures moot.

If I were PJ and the feds or whomever came down on me with a gagging order, a reaction and a message like this would be the only possibly-legal way of informing the users, although I wouldn't be surprised if repercussions weren't coming. Shifting the site outside of US jurisdiction, warning members or modifying access protocols to get around wiretapping would be directly against the terms of the gag order.

Now I'll go swap my tinfoil hat for a lead one.

Related aside: back when speed limits were introduced in the UK, the AA (Automobile Association) got in trouble for obstructing the police by using their scouts to warn drivers of speed checks in the area. So they introduced the slogan "If an AA patrol fails to salute you, please stop and ask why".

Re:Where will this end?

[Joce640k]

America used to be a free country and now where are we?

In a place where every email/SMS/tweet needs to look like a terrorist email/SMS/tweet, where every communication needs to have something forbidden attached to it, where every web page needs to go through a couple of proxies, where they cannot sift any useful information from the mass of data.

They ARE going to do this, it won't go away because a few people grumble. Time to decrease the signal/noise ratio to the point where it's unusable.

Re:Where will this end?

[SirGarlon]

What exactly is that statement?

Quite simply, that a democratic society can't function without privacy. Did you read TFA?

I find it odd that the NSA would give a fuck about Groklaw.

You lack imagination. The NSA has the content of all of Groklaw's communications. Anyone with political pull can get that data and use it however they wish. NSA claims they can't, of course, but "haven't yet" and "never will" are two very different things.

I don't particularly care to be involved in Groklaw's political crusades

Evidently you don't know much about Groklaw, but it doesn't matter. PJ's "political crusades" (your words) are over.

Re:Where will this end?

[Immerman]

Indeed, and I can understand her feelings. I just wish she had chosen to fight instead. She sits at the focus of a pretty fair-sized, cooperative community rich in legal and technological expertise and the will to use it - I can't think of many others in such a strong position to make a stand. She long avoided politics on Groklaw, but this is going way beyond politics, this is an attack on the rule of law itself, and we're in dire need of champions while there's still some small hope of making a difference.

Perhaps she did some soul searching and found she was not champion enough for this challenge - I seem to remember she was shaken by some of the particularly ugly attacks and intimidation directed at her over the SCO saga, not that I blame her, and the opposition this time around is far more fearsome and insidious.

Farewell PJ, we'll miss you. And I at least will be hoping you change your mind.

Re:Where will this end?

[Noryungi]

Educate yourself: Lavabit founder has specifically stated that he did not wat to compromise the privacy of his users.

Source: https://lavabit.com/

My Fellow Users,

I have been forced to make a difficult decision: to become complicit in crimes against the American people or walk away from nearly ten years of hard work by shutting down Lavabit. After significant soul searching, I have decided to suspend operations. I wish that I could legally share with you the events that led to my decision. I cannot. I feel you deserve to know what’s going on--the first amendment is supposed to guarantee me the freedom to speak out in situations like this. Unfortunately, Congress has passed laws that say otherwise. As things currently stand, I cannot share my experiences over the last six weeks, even though I have twice made the appropriate requests.

What’s going to happen now? We’ve already started preparing the paperwork needed to continue to fight for the Constitution in the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. A favorable decision would allow me resurrect Lavabit as an American company.

This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States.

Sincerely,
Ladar Levison
Owner and Operator, Lavabit LLC

He has also stated that he could be arrested for shutting down his site:

Source: http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/13/20008036-lavabitcom-owner-i-could-be-arrested-for-resisting-surveillance-order?lite

I may be ''rather fucking stupid'' as you say, but, at this stage, I trust Lavabit more than I trust the NSA.

And please learn the difference between "convent" and "convenient". I am not a religious person and I have no intention of ever becoming a monk.

Re:Where will this end?

[alexgieg]

all three nodes that you use in Tor is monitored by the NSA and such they can simply do traffic analysis based on time and size of data packets.

I don't mean using Tor to access an open web site, but to access an onion forum. If that drug site I don't remember the name manages to continue working why wouldn't this?

Re:Where will this end?

[fatphil]

It will be an important statement if it is joined by many others doing likewise.
In order for things to get better, sometimes they have to get a lot lot worse.

Re:Where will this end?

[alexgieg]

If I were PJ and the feds or whomever came down on me with a gagging order, a reaction and a message like this would be the only possibly-legal way of informing the users

That makes an EXTREME amount of sense, thank for pointing it out! I guess I should learn to read between the lines rather than taking things so easily at face value... :-(

Re:Where will this end?

[Attila Dimedici]

Unfortunately, that statement is, "We lost. Those seeking a powerful, corrupt government have won. We surrender."

Re:Where will this end?

[gmuslera]

America is not a democracy, if looks, smells and tastes like a plutocracy, then no matter the handwritten label you stamp over it, is not. That you (and hopely, most) are becoming aware of it is an improvement, in any case.

Re:Where will this end?

[Sique]

Maybe because the NSA doesn't care so much for drug sites as they care for sites that the NSA considers a threat to the NSA?

Re:Where will this end?

[Culture20]

This is the "chilling effect" you've always heard so much about. Ordinary people in the US used to think it was a fake argument.

Re:Where will this end?

[lister king of smeg]

because she can no longer communicate safely without the secure email services

Re:Where will this end?

[lister king of smeg]

Seriously? There are already at least 2 published standards that can be used with little concern over being cracked any time soon when used properly. Theres absolutely no indication that SMIME or PGP are broken when using the proper algorithm and key sizes.

I think the point is that encryption is useless against someone that can say, "give us the key or we'll dissappear you."

Yeah that Snowden guy - totally dead now don't you know?
Bradley Manning? Also dead. They killed him last week I think.
Wait, neither of those people, who are guilty of really serious breaches are dead? That's just them trying to lull you into a false sense of security!

No Snowden fled to the only other countries big enough to make the US back down China then when they looked like the would hand him over soon He ran to Russia.
Manning they tortured for months and threw in solitary confinement until they broke him, sentenced him in a kangaroo court tribunal then coerced him into apologizing, and finally they tried a homo smear campaign on him to discredit him.
Then there is Assange who they got their allies to trump up charges to smear his reputation and is hiding in a embassy unable to leave without the black helicopters, black suvs and men in black suits whisking him away to parts unknown to have his naughty bit electrocuted.

It was a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a myth, a good PR. The truth is probably the USA were never more, or less, democratic and free than most of western europe state. Just your run of the mill western democratic country. Not bad, but not the best either : just one among many good country to live in.

Re:It was a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a myth, a good PR. The truth is probably the USA were never more, or less, democratic and free than most of western europe state. Just your run of the mill western democratic country. Not bad, but not the best either : just one among many good country to live in.

Not really good PR, just standard. Every other country has it too. If you live in France then you're told France is the best, if you live in the UK then you're told UK is the best... it sometimes seems that Americans buy into their own publicity a little too easily but I'm sure there are worse national traits than self-deception.

Re:It was a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone from Western Europe I've got to say that you're so far up a gum tree you can see the curvature of the Earth. The kind of democracy espoused by the US was rare outside of the US and France for a long time after the country was founded.

Unfortunately democracy, the political system, is not in itself an assurance of good governance.

Re: It was a myth

[sumdumass]

At one point in time the US was more free then other countries. This is because the size and scopr of the federal government has traditionally been constrained and limited for the most part. The cold war changed a lot of that ss well did the hippy movement of the 60's and the economic colapse in the 70's. Government expanded rapidly trying to "PROTECT" us from then communidt russians and the people started demanding more of the federal government which they were more then happy to address as long as it could increase the powet it held over the people.

This isn't party specific either. Even when a party runs against it as part of their platform, once they get power then make it worse but different.

Re:It was a myth

[somersault]

The only people I ever see acting like their country is "the best" overall are Americans. A country can be "best" in certain areas, but I don't really see any one country as being "the best" overall. I was brought up in Scotland, and I think I'll continue to live here because 1) It's pretty and temperate, 2) Australia has too many deadly creepy crawlies, 3) the US is too smug.

Re:It was a myth

[Chrisq]

The only people I ever see acting like their country is "the best" overall are Americans.

Maybe the Swiss, though admittedly this is from a short visit and knowing one family

Re:It was a myth

[BitZtream]

You must be European. Europeans tend to be so smug about themselves that they miss the irony in their own statements.

Hint: Its not unique to America in any way, you're just oblivious to the world around you/outside of America apparently.

P.S. Irony of a Scotsman claiming he's never seen nationalist pride, fucking priceless dude.

Re:It was a myth

[jcdr]

I disagree.

First there is really big difference between countries about the privacy question. For example in Switzerland (where I live) the privacy question is far more mature than in the USA. It's not a government vs peoples fight, but a normal subject where change have to be voted by all citizens. In the USA the government is so powerful that it can do almost anything, especially using his agencies, without strong opposition.

Secondly, the USA is by far the country that have the most used his massive commercial and political influence to impose to others countries to destroy the privacy rights of there citizens. Many non-USA peoples are upset about that, really. This is not an hazard if now the USA is considered an evil county about privacy and that some others non-USA country is now regarded as more free than the "used to be free" USA.

For many peoples, USA was the way to go until the end of the 20 century. Recent release of documents have show that the USA success was based on one of the most massive manipulation of information and manipulation of others governments. It's normal that there is a reaction about that, internally and externally. I really don't known how the USA will evolve from that point. Regarding everyone as a suspect is certainly not a way to build a bright future.

Re:It was a myth

[tolkienfan]

The US has seen many protests. Many people have moved there, even from the UK and other European countries, for freedom. Look at Salmon Rushdie.
No, this is relatively new and your attitude doesn't help.
We need large number of people showing their indignation, not sitting at home saying "it was probably always like this"

Re:It was a myth

[azav]

We are! We are THE BEST in overall prison population.

USA USA!

We're also pretty good in scientific illiteracy.

Gooooo Jesus!

Re:It was a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

It may not be a case of wimping out. Lavabit was slapped with a gagging clause by the US spy agencies and told that it would have to allow the NSA to spy on its customers on its behalf without telling them. Lavabit decided to shut down rather than act as a mole for the NSA, and was then charged by the Feds for not spying on their behalf. It looks very much like the same thing may be happening with Groklaw. Groklaw is quite outspoken on behalf of freedom of speech, openness, and transparency and therefore critical of the NSA's activities. The US spy agencies are currently in the process of intimidating and shutting down any free speech that exposes NSA lawbreaking or is embarrassing to the US spy agencies. Groklaw would therefore be a prime target. I can't help wondering whether Groklaw has received similar legal threats under cover of a gagging order. Certainly there were many posts criticizing the NSA on Groklaw, and I wonder whether the NSA asked Groklaw to provide access to the NSA to spy on its emails and posters in order to intimidate and silence them. That must surely be the only explanation for the sudden shut down and the freezing of discussion posts.

Re:It was a myth

[azav]

> America is not a democracy.

Correct.

"and the Republic for which it stands."

Re:It was a myth

[fuzzytv]

There's one difference, though. The Swiss are right.

Re:It was a myth

[cold fjord]

It was a myth, a good PR. The truth is probably the USA were never more, or less, democratic and free than most of western europe state.

Today, Western Europe is about as democratic as the US because within living memory various countries had actual fascist governments overthrown by war or social change, and communist governments removed or communist movements thwarted either by war or social change. Collectively all of Europe is far freer today than it was 70 years ago. The US and UK have been free and democratic the whole time, now Western (and most of Eastern) Europe has joined them. Even formerly Soviet Russia is now freer even if there are some troubling trends. (And there is a country that is an exception. And there is an ugly trend that should be a relic of the past - will that curse never leave? )

So no, it isn't just PR. This is all subject to change if people forget or act unwisely.

Re:It was a myth

[somersault]

I was talking specifically about online btw - you only really see Americans acting like their country is the best, or that it used to be - or "should be" - the best for some reason.

There's a big difference between "nationalist pride", and thinking your country is "the best". Scotland never wins any sports tournaments, and doesn't really have much of an appeal to those from other English speaking countries, outside of being a nice place for a holiday. Most Scots folk aren't really under any illusion as to what the rest of the world thinks of Scotland.

I don't really hold that much store in nationalist pride anyway, it sounds far too much like being patriotic, which is just brainwashing at its finest.

Re:It was a myth

[N1AK]

There is national pride in just about any country, however I really don't think the American superiority complex should be dismissed based on that. The very fact the question of whether America is the greatest or not is controversial and seriously asked in the media gives an interesting insight.

The show 'Newsroom' starts with a 'shocking' scene where a student asks what makes America the greatest country in the world. If/when that happened in real life no one would be remotely surprised. When someone answers with "it isn't" THAT would be a shock!

America is probably the closest any country can come to claiming to be the greatest without looking entirely ridiculous. The problem is that when people think they are greatest they dismiss the views of others, believe they know the truth and should be allowed to do what they want because they know best.

Re:It was a myth

[fuzzytv]

If there's one thing that really annoys me on people from US, it's talking about Europeans. There's no such thing (no matter how much the European Union denies that). Europe is a geographical group of ~50 countries that are very (very very) different in all aspects. Did you know that Azerbaijan, Belarus or Georgia are European countries? (I have nothing against those countries, I'm just trying to explain that assuming all countries are like France, UK or Germany is pretty much nonsense). It's like talking about Americans when actually talking about people from Brazil, Argentina, Mexico and Canada because thay all live on continents with "America" in the name.

Even this "We are the best!" bullshit is present only in some of the countries. That does not mean the people in the other countries are not proud of their country, they just don't treat the others as crap. I'd bet it works the same way in the US, btw - most people genuiely proud of their country/state and a few nationalist loonies (which get the most in foreign news, so the impression is quite distorted).

Re:It was a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realise that he didn't talk about today but of when the USA was founded?

You mean when only (slave owning) men (mostly of European descent) were allowed to vote?

That's not even a valid argument, and means nothing. All people originally started from tribes, yet a "tribal" is nothing but a politically correct word meaning "racist." The American colonists were no different, and started from a position of both oppressor and oppressed. Yes, they were dominated by racist male slave owners, and they took land by force from the natives, but they were still only a colony, governed from afar without input. They then revolted and create a democracy from the people they were. Even if it started as only a democracy of 30% of the population, any democracy was still a huge improvement because it allowed them to change.

What made them create the democracy the way they did was coming to an agreement that excluded tribal governance. The right to free speech. The right to freedom of religion. The right to assemble. The formation of a representational government. These are rights that protect individuals from the tribal behaviors of others.

Only a democracy was able to evolve to include the rest of the people, sometimes civilly, sometimes brutally, and never without controversy.

It would not have been possible to do this in the reverse order. They were governed by someone else, and would have been unable to make the social changes required to eliminate slavery first, or to grant blacks, natives, or women the vote. They themselves did not have their own government and did not have a vote in how to run their affairs.

So stop saying or thinking that our democracy was founded on racism. Our country was founded through the drive for self-determination, revolution, and democracy, with measures to protect against racism (the seeds were there, although they weren't implemented in that way at that time.) And it was only through democracy that it could be improved, and the racism reduced. But making such changes is an extremely tumultuous, hard, and slow process that takes overcoming centuries of cultural bias. Even today, a lot of people still want to live in a tribal society, and exclude anyone not of their tribe.

Re: It was a myth

[Attila Dimedici]

Right because as the government gets more powerful, powerful people NEVER use that increased power to increase their own power. Increased government power is ONLY ever used by powerful people to protect those without power from those with power. /s

Inevitably, as the government gains more power, the people who control that government power gain more power, and those who do not control that power have ever less recourse against that government power. I am always amazed by the people who think that a powerful government protects those without power from those with power (since by definition when the government is powerful, those with power are those who control the power of government).

Re:It was a myth

[sageres]

Funny when I was growing up in the old Soviet Union, we were told day in and day out that Soviet Union is the best, and the Soviet People are the greatest, and the greatest brother among them was the (ethnic) Russian people. And that we were more free than anyone else, richer than anyone else, and more fair than anyone else. Oh, and that the average boys and girls in America live on the streets and governed by the evil tzar whose name is Reagan and who can not sleep at night tossing and turning just trying to think of the new ways to kill innocent Soviet children...

Re:It was a myth

[nedlohs]

Most western democracies don't have their children pledging allegiance to the flag on a daily basis. American exceptionalism is pretty exceptional as well, most western democracies don't claim such a thing for their countries.

Re:It was a myth

[JWW]

Yeah, Scotland isn't known at all for having any nationalist pride.

It's not like they made a fucking movie about it or anything.....

Re: It was a myth

[asylumx]

Even when a party runs against it as part of their platform, once they get power then make it worse but different.

I don't see how people miss this. Back in ~2004 the republicans were pro-gov't and the dems were anti-gov't. Trade a republican gov't for a democrat gov't and suddenly the whole thing is flipped on its head, even if that gov't is, in reality, acting almost exactly the same way. The parties are more like sports teams with rabid fans, who think if their team loses it's gotta be the ref's fault, or someone cheated.

Re:It was a myth

[JustOK]

I wish to apologize for the anonymous coward's apology which merely is perpetuating the myth that Canadians apologize too much. Sorry about that, eh.
Je tiens à m'excuser pour les excuses présentées par le lâche anonyme qui ne font que se perpétue le mythe que les Canadiens excuses trop. Désolé pour ça, eh bien.

Re:It was a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

We are! We are THE BEST in overall prison population. USA USA!

Funny shit. I'm old enough to remember an age when the USA was better than the USSR because the USSR, (being a totalitarian communist dictatorship), had more people, per capita, in prisons, than we did. They taught us this in schools less than 30 years ago.

Re:It was a myth

[somersault]

"They" being Hollywood?

What makes you think that modern day Scotland is particularly similar to Scotland in the 14th century, anyway?

Re:It was a myth

[fearofcarpet]

If there's one thing that really annoys me on people from US, it's talking about Europeans. There's no such thing (no matter how much the European Union denies that). Europe is a geographical group of ~50 countries that are very (very very) different in all aspects. Did you know that Azerbaijan, Belarus or Georgia are European countries? (I have nothing against those countries, I'm just trying to explain that assuming all countries are like France, UK or Germany is pretty much nonsense). It's like talking about Americans when actually talking about people from Brazil, Argentina, Mexico and Canada because thay all live on continents with "America" in the name.

As an American living in Europe, I could not agree more with that statement. In fact, one of the bigger unifying forces seems to be disdain for the European Union and making fun of the French. (BTW Israel is also an associated country of the EU and I doubt anyone is thinking of Israelis when they say "European.") The idea that a Brit has more in common with a Finn than a collection of treaties their respective governments signed is just wrong. However, this was a difficult concept for me, as an American, to wrap my head around simply because countries here are so tiny (and have such long histories)... they're the size of states, they all belong to a big "union," therefore EU = US is an easy shorthand. It is really difficult to see things from the other side of the Atlantic until you spend a few years here because European countries don't export their culture (e.g., TV and movies) the same way as the US.

Re:It was a myth

[Hatta]

What service did Lavabit provide if it's even possible for them to let the NSA to eavesdrop? Did Lavabit have the private keys of their users? Why did anyone ever trust such an arrangement?

Re:It was a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

P.S. Irony of a Scotsman claiming he's never seen nationalist pride, fucking priceless dude.

He is probably not a true Scotsman.

Re:It was a myth

[judoguy]

Your "European" comparison is valid for the US as well. We have ~50 states that vary quite a bit. Many differences within each state. I, for example, think the US has a lot of problems, many things I hate to see here. But what I see here that I hate is often even more developed in other countries. Countries I where I have friends and enjoy visiting. Dislike American surveillance? Try London (I know, I know, a city, not a nation). Think America is a police state? Try Singapore.

I value liberty more than security. Most of you don't. A totalitarian state is desired by a shocking (to me, at least) number of people in the world.

What I hate about America isn't some dumbass waving a giant foam hand with a finger pointing up and yelling "We're number one!, USA, USA, USA! We're better than the Euro weenies!" That's merely rustic. What I hate is watching my admittedly imperfect country, perhaps the only modern country in the world founded on liberty, becoming *like* the rest of the world, even countries I love to visit.

Re: It was a myth

[Bob the Super Hamste]

You forget that both parties are pro government, just pro their government. They all piss and moan about spending when out of power but when they gain power the old spending doesn't go away they just spend more on their pet projects. Similar with erosion of rights. Repeat the cycle a few times and it isn't like a pendulum swinging back and forth as is often described but a zig-zag path down to hell.

Re:It was a myth

[wjcofkc]

Did you know that the United States is made up of many states that are overall very different and spread across a wide geographical area? We even have our own separate laws. I am from Missouri and find it frustrating to be lumped in with Texans.

Re:It was a myth

[Grishnakh]

The only people I ever see acting like their country is "the best" overall are Americans. A country can be "best" in certain areas, but I don't really see any one country as being "the best" overall.

It's called "nationalism". In the Western nations, it seems to be mostly restricted to the US these days, however a century ago most of the people in European nations had extremely nationalistic sentiments. It led directly to World War I.

Re:It was a myth

[Grishnakh]

because European countries don't export their culture (e.g., TV and movies) the same way as the US.

They should. British TV shows are far superior to the total ADD-addled dreck that American TV shows. (I say that as an American.)

Re: It was a myth

[Anonymous Codger]

The difference between the corporations who want to control us and the government is that we elect the government and have some say in its operations. Of course, if we're idiots and vote for power-hungry psychopaths based on political advertising and propaganda (Fox) paid for by wealthy individuals and corporations, the government we get isn't going to do a lot of good. Hence the need for controls on campaign financing, etc.

Re:It was a myth

[ImOuttaHere]

The US became a world power as a result of it's war machine built during WWII. However, the US has difficulties sustaining that dominance.

It tried to be the best in business, but ended up shipping millions of jobs off-shore, and parking profits overseas too (to avoid pay taxes).

It tried to be the best in medicine, but can only reach #21 in the world (or #33, depending upon the survey) _well_ behind other first world nations, and, well, frankly, at 3x the cost!!!

It tried to be the best in policing (I can't say "protecting", now can I?) it's countrymen, but it's citizens end up being 8x more likely to die from police violence than they do from "terrorism" and 5x's more likely to die of homicidal violence in general than any country in Europe.

It tried to be the best in spreading "freedom" around the world, but ended up perpetrating political assassinations that handed power to dictators. And when the "unintended consequences" caught up with the US, it turned to simply invading countries it didn't like, which was quickly followed by drone strikes that produced an alarming amount of "collateral damage."

In truth, the US is #1 at something. It consumes more energy than any nation on earth (40 percent of all the world's energy at last look).

The US is also #1 at spending more on it's military than all the world combined. It also spends north of 50 percent of it's budget on their military.

Lastly, it's citizens have the privilege to pay for the construction of the vast spying machine that's, well, spying on them.

Oh, and the US is _not_ a democracy. Never has been. It's always been a republic and one that's arguably become a fascist republic at that.

Re:It was a myth

[tnk1]

They're unlikely to come for Slashdot next. Slashdot is not really a specialist news source for things they care about. And Groklaw, for all that they feel that they can't do things the way they want to, this was purely their decision.

Slashdot might suffer if you could no longer realistically have ACs, but in my experience, there is a lot more chaff than wheat in the AC submissions, it is possible that they could still survive. Note I said "survive", actually "thriving" without ACs may require a change, because there are some good reasons to have anonymous posters, despite the signal to noise ratio being worse on average.

Re:It was a myth

[quarterbuck]

You must not have met any Germans
I had a German teacher years ago. She walked into the class and asked what the first thing that came to our minds when Germany was mentioned was. I jumped in with Rammstein (the band) a microsecond before the rest of the class jumped in with Hitler. I was on her favorites list for the rest of the year.
The Germans don't put out flags outside their houses, don't send armies off to strange lands, don't do national anthems or celebrate Germany (except in soccer games). Spanish are rather smug about Columbus etc. but at least they let the South Americans into their country far more easily than US does. All of Eastern Europe is full of un-smug countries too -- if anything their pride sounds like pride a Philadelphian might take in their city than a nationalistic one. Dutch are easygoing, Nordic countries are rather welcoming (if you eat their food).
OK, The French are a bit smug (or don't speak English very well - can't say for sure), and the British are rather proud of their colonial past but otherwise most of Europe is rather quiet.

Re:It was a myth

[zieroh]

Very doubtful. Groklaw doesn't represent sensitive communications on the scale that the NSA or CIA would care about. PJ is delusional if she really thinks anyone in the government gives a damn about her site and the emails between her and her collaborators.

Having started browsing Groklaw again after several years absence, it is my personal observation that Groklaw is a pale shadow of its former self. PJ's posts lately seem like painfully-biased missives against the companies that don't share her specific values (putting aside the fact that the companies she sides with don't either) as she willfully ignores the subtler details of every single issue she reports on in order to continue her angry screeds. That's not journalism. It's not even entertaining.

I think deep down, PJ knows this. And I think this closure is just a convenient excuse to get out. Good riddance, says me.

(And this is coming from someone who was very pro-Groklaw during the SCO saga).

Re:It was a myth

[lordholm]

That is a load of bullshit. Really, if you would spend some time outside your little memberstate that you come from you would notice that there is more stuff uniting us than dividing us.

Having lived and worked in 4 different member states, and being engaged with a woman from a 5th one, I can most definitely say that there is such a thing as a "European". About 500 millions of them by the way.

Re:It was a myth

[Gorshkov]

Maybe but French Canadians have such a wonderful french accent. That excuses everything else.

Calling what is spoken in Quebec "French" is just as silly as saying what is spoken in Newfoundland is "English"

Re:It was a myth

[HappyHead]

The neat thing about the English language is that it has it's own built-in excuse for massively varying dialects and accents. Adding "ish" on the end of a word in English generally means "bares some vague resemblance to, but probably isn't actually the same as". Kinda like saying "Well, what we did was legal-ish", or "it looks kinda brownish". When we say we're speaking English, we're saying what we are speaking is "kinda sorta vaguely, but not quite exactly like what they speak in England". Thus, what they speak in Newfoundland is totally Engl-ish.

Technically, under those rules, Quebec "French" is also more Engl-ish than it is France-ish, but don't tell them that, it'll just upset them.

Yes, I did completely make that up on the spot, but it's a real-ish explanation.

Re:It was a myth

[Midnight Thunder]

Love it, but to throw some stats around that really makes things seem glum. One of them is the US prison population and the other is the 36th largest US state. I'll let you decide which is which:

- 2,418,352
- 2,085,538

Slavery isn't dead, it just has a new name.

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

Re:It was a myth

[Zinho]

Touché. You're right, of course. In the future I'll perhaps reserve my mod points for people who both have good ideas AND disagree with me. =P

When I responded, though, it was at a score of 1; its current rating of 5:informative suggests that it was underrated at that point. I would have gone with "insightful", and not felt too bad about it - historical perspective sharply highlighting the current political climate I think is worth the up-mod.

Re:It was a myth

[LordSkippy]

I get, and agree with, what you are saying about differences between European countries being much greater than difference between states within the US. However, the history, language, culture, and economy between, say, Texas and New York is not as shared as you think. In a large part, the differences between states are due to the different European groups that settled in the various areas of the US had very different languages and cultures. And that's even discounting the contributions from non-Europeans to the culture of the different states. And let's not forget the native Americans, who's history goes back quite a bit further than 200 - 300 years, and did influence the language and culture of America as well.

Re:It was a myth

[toddles666]

Erm, I think the Germans have been forced to repress the flag-waving, army-exporting, "We're better than everyone!" aspect of their culture, at the end of a gun, no less. IIRC, that attitude got them into quite a bit of trouble about 70-80 years ago.

Re:It was a myth

[pepty]

Scotland definitely wins in the "good science fiction authors per capita" competition, though I'm not sure that's being held anymore.

Re:It was a myth

[fatwilbur]

For many peoples, USA was the way to go until the end of the 20 century.

It's not that surprising really. The US government holds command over a lot of wealth and power, and so over centuries it's not surprising it was slowly overtaken by a clique of people who want to hold onto that power.

The US government has now evolved into something a bit separate from the people within it or their desires. It thinks for itself, makes it's own decisions, and really is only one group of elite men wearing one of two badges. It is too big to control, too entrenched to change.

I'd wager many European countries had to learn lessons about government getting that out of control the hard way over thousands of years.

Suppression via Fear

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to 2013, the terrerists are still winning without having to lift a finger.

Re:Suppression via Fear

[RabidReindeer]

Welcome to 2013, the terrerists are still winning without having to lift a finger.

The terrorists won long ago and occupied the USA using outsourced forces, since their own numbers are so small. The terrorists surrogate army has outposts at every airport in the land reminding people constantly that their ability to travel freely is limited.

First you put a cloud on people's ability to travel.

Then you put a cloud on people's ability to speak.

Then...

Re:Suppression via Fear

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Welcome to 2013, the terrerists are still winning without having to lift a finger.

"I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in -- and the West in general -- into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
    -- Osama bin Laden, Al-Jazeera interview, (21 October 2001)

Re:Suppression via Fear

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The terrorists' surrogate army has outposts at every airport in the land reminding people constantly that their ability to travel freely is limited.

Best fucking backronym for the TSA ever.

Rule of law

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll find all the laws in the US related to privacy and surveillance there. Not that anyone seems to follow any laws that get in their way these days. Or if they find they need a law to make conduct lawful, they just write a new law or reinterpret an old one and keep on going. That's not the rule of law as I understood the term.

The Fascists Have Won

[some old guy]

Apparently our freely-elected Constitutional government has succeeded in creating a critical mass of fear in the US. Real investigative journalism, what little there actually was, is now dead. We are therefore left with only state-approved information exchange.

Time for me to get my passport renewed and learn a new language. Fuck this country. I can get a job anywhere.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[MickyTheIdiot]

anyone that thinks that Obama is "left wing" is an idiot.

Middle-left is a stretcher.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[some old guy]

There is a profound difference between superficially biased journalism and state-monitored corporate journalism. The former is mere human failing, the latter is despotism.

Nobody expects real journalism from the mainstream. It is the muzzling of independent journalism that ushers in our brave new world.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[schwit1]

What is being done has nothing to do with left-wing or right-wing. It's about power and control.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[prisoner-of-enigma]

Time for me to get my passport renewed and learn a new language. Fuck this country. I can get a job anywhere.

And precisely where are you going to go? Name me another country that has less restrictions on free speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly, right to property, and so forth. Everywhere you look there are governments that have it written right in their version of the Constitution that they can detain you, take your stuff, monitor everything you do or say...the list goes on and on.

You can say "I'm gonna move somewhere where they can't spy on me and arrest me for saying unpopular thing about the government" but I challenge you to find anyplace on the planet where that's guaranteed anymore. The US was the last bastion of this. If it's fallen, you're SOL.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[some old guy]

Iceland.

Game, set, and match.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[Immerman]

No, he really isn't. Thirty years ago he would have been seen as, at the "leftist", a moderate Conservative.

The sad truth is "left versus right" stopped being a real thing in politics decades ago, today it's little more than the window-dressing espoused by politicians to keep us distracted while both sides push as hard as they think they can get away with towards a despotic government - the worst-case combination of the liberal and conservative viewpoints. The "liberals" claim to push towards big gov with big benefits, and "settle" for big gov. The "conservatives" claim to push towards small gov with small benefits, and "settle" for small benefits. Between them they have managed to create a monster while both sides can (with ever-decreasing plausibility) claim that that wasn't the intent.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[Attila Dimedici]

Actually that is only true because your definition of "left vs right" has been co-opted by those on the extreme left wing. However, you slice it, both U.S. parties are on the same end of the political spectrum as the "left wing". That is, both parties think that the government is the solution to whatever the problem is. This shrinking of the political spectrum happened in the run up to WWII when fascist got labeled as the extreme far end of the spectrum from communist. When in fact, the only difference between their politics is in the details, not in the methods used to accomplish those goals.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[Anonymous Coward]

Switzerland.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[SecurityTheatre]

For practical purposes, most western countries have strict privacy laws. They also have a healthy fear of secret courts and secret police.

While there are some three-letter agencies in Europe, their scope and reach is substantially limited.

It's always worth pointing out that the US (having less than 5% of the world's population) houses over 30% of the world's prisioners and takes people's freedom at a rate nearly double Russia and China and 10-16 times that of most of Europe.

Despite a similar framework of laws, this particular obsession, itself, belies a pretty specific and astounding obsession with authority and police that is unique among the world (except, maybe, in China).

This is also one of the myriad reasons I left the US for good several years ago. Good riddance.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[Anonymous Coward]

There are actually people who attempt to measure this in an objective way. The results are interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_index
freeexistence.org

It is perhaps coincidental that freedom indexes seem to track roughly with other prosperity indexes as far as the US is concerned, in that a couple of decades ago you could pretty much assume the US was right at the tip-top, but that ain't so true anymore.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[Insomnium]

Most european countries i would presume. Or if you want more specific answer, try any country in scandinavia.

Re:The Fascists Have Won

[davecb]

Even the lower houses of parliament have such a high cost to get nominated that they select only for the seriously well-to-do. Such folks tend toward static and statist systems, to preserve their wealth.

It's probably fair to call the U.S. Congress the "Houe of Lords", and take their statements with just a tiny grain of salt.

--dave

Re:Good riddance

[RotateLeftByte]

you mean the ones who use 'Anonymous Coward' as their sig? (like you perhaps?)

I've disagreed with PJ over many things but I've always respected her argument and I've never been censored when I've put forward differing views to hers.

Her research into a topic is excellent and puts many lawyers to shame.

I for one will miss her and Groklaw.

we are in real deep shit...

[MickyTheIdiot]

It sounds very melodramatic, but we really are heading towards the day when many of us are going to need to flee our own country. Those of us that have been free and open with out opinions, anyway.

Re:we are in real deep shit...

[Sockatume]

How would fleeing the US help? Even the fig-leaf of privacy protection afforded to US citizens living at home is completely absent for those who live elsewhere, citizen or otherwise. As long as any component of the runs through the US, the US will continue to reap.

Thank You, pj

[some old guy]

Groklaw will be missed. You are, and will remain, a rock star. :)

Turnkey totalitarianism.

[boorack]

All components required to impose totalitarian regime were in place for some time. Now, our lovely, corporate-sponsored fascist and criminal government decided to turn the key.

Give Up

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just the biggest bunch of BS. Email has never been secure or private, so why is everyone pretending that it is? The only thing Groklaw has to fear is not having a lame excuse for giving up, but now that they have one...

Re:Give Up

[Sockatume]

Streets aren't secure or private, but if you saw the Gestapo positioned on every street corner you might suddenly feel differently about them.

Re:Give Up

[urulokion]

You are missing the point. The point isn't that e-mail isn't a secure form of communication. The point is the NSA is capturing ALL of it and storing it in massive data stores. The NSA can search through ALL of the captured data at will. That US Federal government have the e-mails. There is really nothing in place that prevents the government from search through the stored data time and time again for years, except for some "rules".

The fact the government CAN search through your e-mails at will is what PJ is concerned about. She a very bright person. She's gone over the issue in her mind. She realizes all of the ramifications of the government capabilities of the NSA. And it scares the hell out of her. It's created a chilling effect on First Amendment rights. Lavabit, Circle Mail, Groklaw are just the first visiable causalities of this chilling effect on free speech. And it's going to get worse and worse as more people realize the full impact of what the Snowden leaks are telling us.

Re:hmm

[hacker]

So basically they Won.

They don't win unless we've stopped fighting. And we're a long, long way from that.

MIGRATE

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get out of the USA. There's no such thing as freedom there anymore.

Groklaw you will be missed

[spacepimp]

This is unprecedented that companies are folding in response to the abuses of the US government. It is not something to ignore and yet we still have anonymous cowards humping the legs of slashdot making sophomoric marginal comments. Keep up the good work AC. You truly are the lowest common denominator.

First they came for Lavabit...

[Vermonter]

And I said nothing, because I am not a Lavabit user. Then they came for Groklaw, and I said nothing, because I don't visit Groklaw. Then they came for Slashdot, and I had one less platform to voice my outrage...

Re:First they came for Lavabit...

[Anonymous Coward]

Try this: https://slashdot.org. See what happened?

They've always had Slashdot.

Re:First they came for Lavabit...

[Threni]

There's always Kuro5hin.

Just kidding. Nobody goes there anymore. I mean Reddit.

Re:First they came for Lavabit...

[jimbrooking]

...and then they came for me.

And we continue downhill... Farewell Groklaw...

[killfixx]

Groklaw has been an excellent source for legal information. PJ has always done an excellent job.

This is another marker on that downhill race to revolution. I just hope it's not as bloody as the last one.

Re:And we continue downhill... Farewell Groklaw...

[meta-monkey]

Blood? That's so 20th century.

The revolution is here, though. And the streets will run red with tape.

The bankers and the politicians think they are safe because they've built prisons. They've built a militarized police. They've built an omnipresent spy machine.

It is a mighty machine indeed. Powerful! Terrible! You'd be mad to fight that machine! Who could?

But there is one, tiny, adorable little flaw in their design. Uh, what tells the soldiers in which directions to point their guns? What determines who occupies the prison cells? What determines whether the spy machine is listening to your pizza delivery calls rather than ferreting out bank fraud?

Why, it's just a piece of paper. It's just a law that says "defend bankers, gas protesters." All you have to do is change that law to say "prosecute bankers, defend protesters" and that machine turns right back around on its makers. Kind of a clever hack, eh?

Let's see, let's see how to change those laws...

Oh, look, the laws of my city, county, state and nation are right here on the Internet. And look, I have a text editor, too! I bet I can write better laws than a bunch of dickbags who failed kindergarten and slept through civics class. If I need some help, advice on wording, I wonder if there's anybody on the Internet who might help? And I bet if I tidied up the body of laws for my own town, removed the tax breaks for the golf course where the city council gets free memberships and used that money to fix potholes in the streets, people might actually vote for that! Only need a plurality. And I bet I can crowdfund some ads. Or FaceBook it. My grandma might Like it.

I'm working on this right now, and I can use some help.

It's basically Sourceforge for law. Get your laws. Fork them. Hack them. Vote on a release candidate before a general election and choose a random Installer to put on a ballot. Crowdfund money.

Turn it into a game. The US electoral district map is a game of Risk. Each unit has tax money and a militarized police force if you win it. Campaigns are just an MMO, with quests like "write 10 letters to the editor," "collect 100 FB likes for these laws," and raid bosses like "drive people to the polls." I'd love to get "haunches" in there somewhere. Oh well. Maybe collect 10 pictures of opposition candidates drunk or with their hair out of place. Dick pix = legendaries.

If anybody wants to help, I need:

Law hackers.

Foundation/community organizers.

Sourceforge for law (I'm hacking Allura now, but I've never used Python before)

Kickstarter for cash.

Memes to explain this to people.

Trolls to troll politicians.

Stackoverflow (law version) to help people write better laws

Secure online voting system.

It's all right there. Every tool we need is available for free online. We can repair the entire US government from our parents' basements in our pajamas, one district at a time.

We need not hide, we need not encrypt. We will occupy no streets, break no laws, have no secrets and be the very, very most obedient of citizens. Call it an "Open Government" maybe. Or New/America.

We just need some hackers.

Do you know any?

Re:And we continue downhill... Farewell Groklaw...

[meta-monkey]

Sure!

Here's my website

Right now the revolution consists of meta-monkey. If LoRdTAW would like to join, we'd love to have you.

Basically, the whole plan is laid out right there. Read it, pick it apart, fix it, share it, pick pieces you can do and start on them.

The biggest thing I think we need right now is the LawForge. i.e., SourceForge, except you import your local laws off your city and county website and start hacking. I am working on that, but, well, I have a full-time job and Python is not my first language, so I'm still learning that.

But the best thing about this plan...there is no organization needed. It's a completely distributed system. Anybody can do it, right now.

You can start hacking one of the systems we need. You can get your laws and start editing them. You can share the idea and make memes about it. Whatever.

All that we have to do for this to work is spread the idea. If it's a good idea, it'll grow on its own.

Re:And

[Fnord666]

"So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause."
Senator Padme Amidala

too much drama...

[Anonymous Coward]

Groklaw was in the phase of closing a couple of years now - this "heroic exodus" claiming that trendy "i am a freedom fighter" is just too much drama for something no so dramatic...

Re:too much drama...

[hacker]

<cite>http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110409161444432</cite>

Translation: Groklaw has been gagged

[pipedwho]

What this translates to isn't that Groklaw doesn't like what's happening to others and is shutting down out of protest.

It is that it has been served with a demand for information/wire-tapping along with an attached gag order, courtesy of the 'Star Chamber'. The only 'legally' safe way for organisations to tell people that something like this has happened is to shut down their operations.

So, translation of Groklaw's announcement: the NSA/FBI/TLA have copied our hard drives and installed a data logger in our data centre. Oh yeah, and we're not allowed to talk about it.

Re:Translation: Groklaw has been gagged

[Sockatume]

I think someone should point out that there's no evidence that it's the case, and it seems unlikely given the current history of the issue. It'd be reassuring to think that this is the result of some specific hostile action against Groklaw, but I'm afraid that such acts are not necessary to get this sort of response.

Re:Translation: Groklaw has been gagged

[wonkey_monkey]

It is that it has been served with a demand for information/wire-tapping along with an attached gag order, courtesy of the 'Star Chamber'.

Do the gag also orders also order you to write 2000+ words of false information on why you're shutting down? Because if you're trying to hint that you're not allowed to talk about the reasons, inventing valid but false reasons would seem to be the wrong way to go about it.

Re:Translation: Groklaw has been gagged

[Carewolf]

Of course there is evidence, the evidence is GrokLaw shutting down. There can be no more evidence than that because that would be illegal for them to announce, or even hint.

Re:Translation: Groklaw has been gagged

[Anonymous Coward]

The real translation is that Pamela Jones, who wanted to stop before, wanted to stop again and decided this was a good moment, because she could at the same time make a statement.

Re:Translation: Groklaw has been gagged

[idontgno]

Except that secret vampire attacks don't happen, whereas FISA-authorized data center tapping does.

Re:Translation: Groklaw has been gagged

[Alsee]

The stunning abruptness of the shutdown and the discussion of Lavabit screams at me that she was hit with an NSA letter. There's no way PJ would yank the plug without warning like that on some whim. Even comments were disabled. If PJ simply wanted to retire the project she would have wound things down gracefully. She would have encouraged the community to stay active. She would have given the community time to look for alternatives. She would have encouraged someone else to take up the job running a successor site.

I saw nothing in her post that I would call "false information". If she got an NSA letter and didn't mention it, that does not make any of what she wrote untrue. If PJ got an NSA letter with a legal gag order, she would obey it to the letter. But that can't stop her from shutting down the site to refuse to participate, and she knows the community is smart enough to see how utterly out of character such an abrupt shutdown is.

-

PGP?

[Anonymous Coward]

If technocrats at Groklaw cannot use PGP than who is PGP for?

Welcome to traffic analysis

[davecb]

The hard part of finding people to prosecute is *finding* candidates. Once you know who one person is, you can do traffic analysis and find all their friends. See, for example http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/

If someone is reading all our (insecure) emails to and from a known "person of interest", such as, for example, a well-known web site, then they can build the kind of interconnection matrix that will lead them to the supporters and fellow-travellers of that website.

Were I a copyright maximalist, I would regard groklaw as a criminal conspiracy, and the centre of a matrix of criminals and fellow-travellers. Based on that, I'd then petition the communications security establishment for a (secret) order allowing me to identify the conspirators and their fellow-travellers for (equally secret) investigation, leading to either prosecution or private revenge...

--dave

Re:Land of the free? Free what? Snooping?

[hebertrich]

It was THE most important legal website on the internet covering SCO , Apple/Samsung Microsoft/Novell etc etc
The level of analysis and documenta on the site made it a unique tool and place to get information on litigation between the tech giants.
This is where we followed the SCO owns Linux war against Novell et al . This is a terrible loss for all because the truth and documents was out there and we all participated and learned from it. It is a terrible loss for who are curious about their world and the workings of the legal system.
I am in shock. I went there and spent thousands of hours on the site. I learned and owe the Lady in a Red Dress one hell of a lot.
Thanks PJ . Forever in your debt.
Ric

Re:Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, but 2+ years ago, she did say she would stop updating Groklaw with articles. Did she stick to that?

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110409161444432

America is fucked ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Completely and utterly fucked. And they're dragging the rest of the world down to the worst level of pervasive state-security.

America has become everything they were against 30 years ago -- scared sheep with the government looking over your shoulder at everything you do.

You have no moral legitimacy, and you are no longer worthy of respect.

If stuff like this is happening, the US is going to devolve into a sad parody of herself. Because people are stopping believing even the illusion freedom. And in the process, you are making this happen in every other country.

Fuck you guys.

Re: Good riddance

[Noryungi]

And #slashdot is not #twitter, you moron.

Seriously, enough with the hashtags already. Learn how to type proper messages!

And. Get. Off. My. Lawn!! ;-)

Re:Notice

[Noryungi]

But here is the horrible thing: even if /. has received a National Security Letter... They can't tell you.

Think about this for just a second. They. Cannot. Tell. You.

wtf groklaw

[shentino]

Groklaw is one of the watchers watching the watchers!

Their articles expose the corporate corruption and report on the legal shenanigans by the likes of the RIAA, Apple, Microsoft, SCO, Sony, and even the federal government itself.

We need Groklaw now more than ever.

Re:And

[korbulon]

"So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause." Senator Padme Amidala

Well, that's very insight... wait... did you just quote 'Phantom Menace' without a hint of irony?

Never thought I would see the day. This depresses me far far more than the article itself. Wasn't expecting that.

Re:Grow a fucking spine

[serviscope_minor]

Grow a fucking spine

As posted by AC. I think that may have detracted from your point somewhat.

Whistleblowers, then journalists, then lawyers

[jkflying]

First they came for the whistleblowers,
But I was not a whistleblower.
Then they came for the journalists,
But I was not a journalist.
Then they came for the lawyers,
But I was not a lawyer.
Then they came for me,
And there was nobody left to defend me in court, write about my case or provide facts as to what had been done against all of us.

Re:Grow a fucking spine

[SirGarlon]

I believe it was Bob Dylan who came up with the words you need to hear right now: "Just because you like my stuff, doesn't mean I owe you anything."

You're free to disapprove of PJ's choice, of course, but can you do it without sounding quite so petulant and self-entitled?

Re: Grow a fucking spine

[Anonymous Coward]

But I'm guessing it is not the technical privacy hurdles which have her against the ropes - it is the legal ones. If I make the most technically secure site in the world, but I am forced to secretly open the back door to some government official, secretly demanded under jackboot threat and penalty of imprisonment and the ruin of my life - what else do I do? If you are willing to let her destroy her life - why don't you offer to take over the administrative side of GROKLAW, rightfully refuse to comply and publish all the details, and we will all vocally support you as you are carted off to your new dungeon cell. It is her life, not just some abstract principled stand.

Gone

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

This will not change until you strike the fear of god into every elected hack in Congress. I don't care if they personally feed Warren Buffet's money to starving babies -- let them know they are gone at the next election.

Yes, you sitting on your ass reading this.

Sadly, I know how she feels

[hymie!]

As somebody who is being stalked myself, I believe that the correct way to fight privacy invasion is to keep doing what you're doing, and show the invaders that they cannot intimidate you.

But I realize that this is a decision each person must make for him/herself, and I am sorry but not necessarily surprised that this is the decision PJ made.

Re:Where will this end? (Confused Canadian)

[MacroSlopp]

I'm a Canadian and I'm confused.
As I see it, Americans take pride in individualism. If the U.S. government does too much, or gets too big, it's 'Socialism', or even worse 'Communism'.
The constitution, defends the right to bear arms, so don't even think about limiting rights to guns. The constitution is sacred...

If the government wants to monitor every thought in the country, even through it's unconstitutional, and it's secret...
go ahead...
I'm sure you have a good reason...
WHAT????

I DON'T GET IT.
Where's the individualism, where's the fight for the constitution, isn't the government too big....
What am I missing?

Hint to secure email

[Tovok7]

A sad day for the entire IT world indeed :( It’s interesting that PJ is recommending https://mykolab.com/ as a way to have secure emails:

If you have to stay on the Internet, my research indicates that the short term safety from surveillance, to the degree that is even possible, is to use a service like Kolab for email, which is located in Switzerland, and hence is under different laws than the US, laws which attempt to afford more privacy to citizens. I have now gotten for myself an email there, p.jones at mykolab.com in case anyone wishes to contact me over something really important and feels squeamish about writing to an email address on a server in the US.

Re:Grow a fucking spine

[umghhh]

If I may paraphrase Agent Smith here: "And tell me, _Mr._ Anderson, what good is a free speech ...if. you are unable to speak" - that is the situation we may find ourselves now. I think it is more perfect than catch 22. It does not matter that much if it is as Obama says the authority is not abused albeit one may doubt that as it is apparent gov officials lied in front of congress because the law allowed them and actually forced them too. The resulting situation is that we will most likely never know. The law is on their side. I think that is what grounding fathers wanted to avoid I suppose: absolute power in hands of the executive branch.How long this will be misused in a serious way? Is there a guarantee that absolute surveillance will not turn into absolute oppression. In the name of our security and human rights of course. I always knew that the western world we live in is only superficially different from communist one in which I grew up. Back then they just did not have the means to supervise everybody all t he time, they still tried and failed. Now there are technological means to achieve exactly that and the really bad thing is that judging on the general public behaviour in US and other western countries, there is not much we can expect in terms of reestablishing privacy. There is a drive towards security of communication in Germany right now but I do not see how this is going to be of any relevance when everybody is ready to sell its dearest private info to FB etc.

Re:Grow a fucking spine

[c0lo]

Email doesn't work, try something else, perhaps TOR.

tor won/t help when there's a data logger installed by nsa at the destination. And I don't think much else will help either.

Re:does anybody have a mirror/copy of the files??

[inode_buddha]

the entire thing is archived in the library of congress. No, seriously. It was some award/recognition for the site. Thios move will hopefully also be archived so historians know where to look

Madison quote

[plaut]

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
                -- James Madison (4th US President)

Three choices, pick one.

[wjcofkc]

This all seems like such a bad dream. Unfortunately, that makes the American predicament no less real. We may soon find ourselves facing three choices:

1. Passively watch our experiment in democracy lay down and die, while accepting that 2 + 2 = 5. Hopefully your children won't be too dissatisfied with your parenting. They might turn you in under the guise of suspicion of thinking freely.

2. Flee the country. Get you're passport and leave now while you still can. We may find some of the more desirable countries banning the immigration of fleeing US citizens, or at the very least face widespread discrimination abroad.

3. Fight back - I'm talking violence here.

I know how melodramatic that all sounds, and a few years ago I would have never imagined myself realistically making such a statement - not in a million years.

I can't believe I have a front row seat to everything that's going down. Maybe someday I'll find myself telling someone where I was when the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights were permanently suspended. Maybe someday I'll tell someone how the entirety of US history really went down from founding ideals to however this ends - I'm sure it will be nothing even remotely close to their heavily censored, revisionist textbook.

Last but not least: this really sucks.

Re:Three choices, pick one.

[RonBurk]

Probably there are more choices. For example:

Find a sympathetic Congress person to hold a public hearing
with NSA plus real Computer Scientists to inquire
on the feasability of using the data they already have
to identify gun owners in the U.S, to identify all Jews
in the U.S., to identify all Catholics, all Mormons,
all Tea Party sympathizers, etc.

Don't take on a superior force if you can instead use
small effort to pit two superior forces against each other.

The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are jumping away from the issue: The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt, in a way that affects everyone on the planet.

Re:The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt.

[nucrash]

The US government has been corrupt for a long time. The difference now is that Manning and Snowden have basically pulled back the veil of secrecy enough to see that the Wonderful Wizard is nothing more than a crotchety old man. Not even a nice one at that. We have been on a slide since the 1950s. The only way we came to prominence is that the rest of the world leveled itself and somehow, sans Pearl Harbor, we remained untouched. What do you get when you have only one functioning economy in the world? Hello new World Power. The Soviets worked hard to bring themselves backup up to speed and quickly became the second Super Power. The Soviets had a shoddy structure though and fell to pieces because of that. Because of this, the US has lost it's primary enemy and looks around the world for others. Compare the US to Rome, and the history lines up so perfectly it's scary. Look at how the past two presidents tried to take power away from the senate. Look at how we spend more money on entertainment than we do on science or any other industry that will advance us. Look at the type of entertainment we have today where what we watch has little relevance tomorrow rather than something we will watch and cherish years or centuries from now. We are in the bread and circuses phase of the empire. Everyone is poor, but continue to be entertained, so they don't care. Religion is continuing to come into prominence again as it did in the the fall of the Roman empire. The rest of the world is advancing and our ideas are quickly becoming outdated. Our influence on the world is waning and we have very little to show for it. Other than a flag on the moon marking one of our pinnacle moments of advancement.

Re:The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt.

[RenderSeven]

So you're saying its now a white flag? How freaking appropriate.

Re:The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt.

[Grishnakh]

Maybe, but looking at the quality of the sidewalks in my town, I think we'd be much better off using Roman concrete for them than whatever they're using now.

Re:The U.S. government is EXTREMELY corrupt.

[Grishnakh]

We could build stuff just as durable as Roman buildings these days if we wanted to

No, we can't, because we don't know how to.

We're only just now discovering how Roman concrete was made:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-14/ancient-roman-concrete-is-about-to-revolutionize-modern-architecture

She's been at it a while, and may need a recharge

[sandbagger]

She'll always be remembered for the SCO battle. This doesn't mean that she needs to go on and fight this fight also. I wish she'd handed off the site to someone else rather than lock the doors but that's her decision.

Disappointing Decision

[Lawrence_Bird]

While I respect PJ and all she has done to bring light on the many legal issues of interest to /. and other internet users, I do not understand this decision. She seems to be implying that she fears that one day, maybe, she'll be forced to turn over a private e-mail, perhaps even an encrypted one and links that to the current NSA revelations. But that is a red herring - Groklaw has always been subject to subpoena for documents related to a criminal or even civil litigation. And anyone sending information to PJ knows the inherent security risks - PJ has no obligation to provide complete security, something that is impossible or at least nearly so. To the extent that PJ feels the current environment will discourage sources of information or her consultations with associaties, as others have pointed out, use strong encryption. Doing so will eliminate much of the creeped out feel she says she has about the possibility of emails to/from her being read by the government(s).

I don't know but I just feel a bit like PJ is being a drama queen on this one. Yes, there are concerns and nobody should be happy about the wholesale spying that is going on. But shutting down is going a bit over the deep end and I think sends the wrong message.

Re:Disappointing Decision

[bwcbwc]

I think a lot of this is more a personal statement about the rule of law and constitutional protections in the US in general, rather than any specific risk to Groklaw itself. PJ has always been careful to emphasize that the rule of law is a process designed to ensure justice is achieved as much as humanly possible. It must be incredibly disillusioning to her to see this process break down so dramatically as it has in the case of the NSA and FISA. If the rule of law means nothing anymore, Groklaw serves no purpose, regardless of whether there is any direct impact to the site from the NSA monitoring.

Some thoughts

[dcollins117]

Allow me to present two quotes I think are relevant. The first is from the the Groklaw article referenced to in TFS.

Not that anyone seems to follow any laws that get in their way these days. Or if they find they need a law to make conduct lawful, they just write a new law or reinterpret an old one and keep on going. That's not the rule of law as I understood the term.

The second is from a recent op ed piece from Charles Krauhammer. I usually disagree with him on just about everything, but I read his stuff anyway just to get a glimpse of the what the "other side" is thinking. Nevertheless, I think he is spot on with the following:

Such gross executive usurpation disdains the Constitution. It mocks the separation of powers. And most consequentially, it introduces a fatal instability into law itself. If the law is not what is plainly written, but is whatever the president and his agents decide, what's left of the law?

Can't delete acount

[new_breed]

So I thought: well time to delete my slashdot account, I don't need anyone tracing certain posts back to my email account, but guess what? Slashdot doesn't allow deletion of account! That's more of a reason than ever to want to delete it IMHO.

Re:Notice

[Alsee]

But here is the horrible thing: even if /. has received a National Security Letter... They can't tell you.

Nope. But they can shut down abruptly, like Groklaw and Lavabit did. And they can put up a shutdown notice like Groklaw did, mentioning Lavabit like Groklaw did, and "inexplicably" lock out comments like Groklaw did. Hell, they could put up a page with nothing but a link to the Groklaw message.

I bet a LOT of people would be freaked and outraged by such an event.

I'm kinda hoping it turns into a whole chain of sites abruptly shutting down like Lavabit did. It might stir up a large part of the population if a lot of websites started shutting down in that manner. Hell, imagine the fallout if something like Wikipedia were to suddenly shut down with no explanation beyond a message like the one currently sitting on Groklaw. A message decrying government intrusion and total loss of privacy, and directly mentioning Lavabit. Hundreds of reporters asking why.... and the only answer fro the Wikimedia foundation is "Under advice of our lawyers we are unable to answer that question", and just directing the reporters back to the shutdown message.

-

Re:Grow a fucking spine

[Aaden42]

The *problem* is that courts of have ruled these gag orders *cannot* be challenged in court.

Don't be a Volunteer Terroree

[Sloppy]

PJ has supplied the analogy already, to explain her mistake. I don't even need to make anything up:

I arrived in New York City, and being naive about the ways of evil doers in big cities, I rented a cheap apartment on the top floor of a six-floor walkup, in the back of the building. That of course, as all seasoned New Yorkers could have told me, meant that a burglar could climb the fire escape or get to the roof by going to the top floor via the stairs inside and then through the door to the roof and climb down to the open window of my apartment.

That is exactly what happened.

In other words, lots of people knew about the risk all along, but someone didn't and got burned as a result. (That sucks. I sympathize.) When that person finally realized how hostile the environment was, and had always been, and what countermeasures that person should have always been using, what happened?

PJ, did you take the burglary as a lesson to move away from NYC and also infer that all rational people should also move away from NYC?

Or did you learn to secure your windows, see fire escapes as possible attack surfaces, etc?

What the government is doing is sucks, and every person in Congress and the White House ought to be issuing press releases that they are going to make the gag orders illegal (so that violating the illegal gags has no negative legal consequence to the speaker). They should say they're going to put an end to the US government working against the interest of US citizens. And every American who would even consider voting for someone who isn't issuing such a press release, ought to be ashamed. And yet, ALL THIS IS A SEPERATE ISSUE. When it comes to privacy, your government is always a potential problem, but it's never your only problem. So no matter what happens to this country, your problem remains and even if you had a big enough gun, you can't solve the privacy problem by pointing your gun at your government's face.

Just like how moving away from NYC, doesn't mean you never have to worry about another burglary.

In 1991, PRZ released the first version of PGP. Why do you think he did that? We have known literally for decades that lots of people are able to read our unencrypted email. I just don't understand how this basic and obvious fact is still wished away. Nothing Bushbama did, changed that. Nothing the NSA has done, changed that. The PATRIOT Act didn't change it, CALEA didn't change it, and future CALEA expansion isn't going to change it. On September 10th 2001, you could have just as easily and accurately written about unencrypted email,

I can't continue. There is now no shield from forced exposure.

and it would be no less relevant or true than it is today. And similarly, when I see

You don't expect a stranger to read your private communications to a friend.

I have to call bullshit. You "don't expect" it, in the sense that you think it's undesireable that it happens, and you wish your plaintext communication could be private. But seriously, for decades you certainly have "expected" it in the sense that you predict it and have had reason to think it could happen, committed by any of many parties including the government, and that it can be done passively and inexpensively, without anyone ever detecting it and being held accountable. Your love letters were always on the wind.

The environment didn't change, PJ. You did. The world is no darker now than it was when you launched groklaw. If anything, things are better. You went from not giving a fuck if people read your email, or maybe from living in denial of what every single Internet tech-minded person eventually realizes, to understanding how vulnerable unsecured communications are, and caring about it.

That's good! It's pro

Re:Wait a minute

[drcln]

I read the statement, and I can't figure out why Groklaw is shutting down.

Discourse about FOSS should not have to be encrypted.

This is stupid.

Precisely. This whole thing seems a bit dramatic. Groklaw was not political. Its work was based as far as I can tell on discussion of public events, and wasn't collecting or leaking or discussing anything that wasn't already in the open. So, while I'm as outraged as the next guy about the constant ubiquitous surveillance state, I don't see how it prevents the work that Groklaw was doing. We can't just stop having public discourse about public issues.

There are still ways to keep private conversations private, so do that as necessary.