Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Wildfire Threatens Water and Power To San Francisco

Posted by timothy on from the keep-your-batteries-charged dept.

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Retuers reports that firefighters are battling to gain control of a fast-moving wildfire raging on the edge of Yosemite National Park that is threatening power and water supplies to San Francisco, about 200 miles to the west. 'We are making progress but unfortunately the steep terrain definitely has posed a major challenge,' says Daniel Berlant, a spokesman for the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection. 'Today we're continuing to see warm weather that could allow this fire to continue to grow very rapidly as it has over the last several days.' California Governor Jerry Brown has declared a state of emergency, warning that the fire had damaged the electrical infrastructure serving the city, and forced the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission to shut down power lines. The blaze in the western Sierra Nevada Mountains is now the fastest-moving of 50 large wildfires raging across the drought-parched U.S. West that have strained resources and prompted fire managers to open talks with Pentagon commanders and Canadian officials about possible reinforcements. Firefighters have been hampered by a lack of moisture from the sky and on the ground. 'The wind today is going to be better for firefighting, but we are still dealing with bone dry grass and brush,' says Tina Rose, spokeswoman for the multi-agency incident command. 'This fire is very dynamic.'"

102 of 159 comments (clear)

  1. This is not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is not part of global warming.

    1. Re:This is not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Will the Starfleet HQ remain powered?

    2. Re:This is not... by istartedi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Maybe, maybe not. On the one hand they release CO2, but they also release particulates and *where* those things end up in the atmosphere matters, because that impacts how fast they are reabsorbed and/or break down. Oh, you mean it's not an effect of global warming? Less sure about that.

      One thing is certain--we have only been managing the forests for about 100 years. Native Americans didn't have planes dropping retardant and massive crews with chainsaws cutting breaks. The "dark day" that occured over New England in the early 1800s is thought to be from a fire in what is now Canada and/or the northern US.

      If wildfires are increasing, my first suspect is the decades of fuel we stored when the states had enough money to put out every spark. Now we don't have the money, but we have all that fuel stored.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    3. Re:This is not... by jklovanc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is less about money than the impossibility to stop a well fueled fire once it starts. The idea that all fires are bad and must be put out is a dangerous one. Slow burning fires that occur in wet seasons are actually good. They clear out underbrush so animals can find food and they keep the fuel down. Trees live just fine through these fires as their bark protects them. Some trees even need fire to open their cones and let the seeds out. Putting out every fire just lets the fuel build to the point that the next fire is impossible to put out. These fires get very hot and kill the trees. Forest management practices have changed to include controlled burns but they need to be done more often.

      It is impossible to stop all fires and some need to be left to burn so bigger fires do not happen later.

    4. Re:This is not... by Nutria · · Score: 1

      If wildfires are increasing, my first suspect is the decades of fuel we stored when the states had enough money to put out every spark. Now we don't have the money, but we have all that fuel stored.

      That argument is 90 years old. The National Park Service has been doing controlled burns for 45 years.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    5. Re:This is not... by betterprimate · · Score: 1

      Native Americans didn't have planes dropping retardant and massive crews with chainsaws cutting breaks.

      Forests perhaps, but Native Americans were more skilled in controlled burnings. They were the ones who taught us how to do it.

    6. Re:This is not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except the frequency and acerage of controlled burns have decreased over the years leading to a build up of fuel, especially in California.

    7. Re:This is not... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      Depends on how long the whalesong aliens stay up there, I guess.

    8. Re:This is not... by meerling · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But changes in funding and laws have changed and allowed a record amount of fuel to accumulate. This was also made worse by the expanding footprint of mankind. We have towns and other installations all over the place, and most people don't want the burns and/or logging/clearing to occur near them. So it's just built up to record levels. Of course, the funding for all this hasn't kept pace, and has even been cut in various ways. (It's seems as though every time they get an increase in funding for this stuff, it gets yanked back pretty soon, with an additional cut to follow, but I don't have an exact list or anything.)
      Of course, you can't forget that there have been numerous laws and regulations put in place that limit or prevent the removal of fuel by various means in a number of locations. That's a self defeating thing once the first fire sweeps through. In a place where once there were trees that were fire resistant and needed the normal fires to cause their cones to open and disperse their seeds (fir trees are a good example), the fires with this new abundance of fuel are too hot, and actually kill or even destroy the trees along with their seeds.

      Managing the forests is a complicated and difficult thing due the previous reasons. Also, just because something was said almost a century ago, or even longer, doesn't make it any less valid.

    9. Re:This is not... by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Here is a brief history right from the source. I was aware that oak savannah (sp.?) in the Bay Area was a Native-created habitat; but wasn't sure how widespread Native burning was. According to some sources; quite wide spread. Of course I'm sure Natives had campfires go out of control sometimes. OTOH, they didn't have strips of asphalt everywhere delivering hot gasoline engines driven by people with little fire-starters at their lips, which they fling from the windows of said gasoline-powered vehicles. You'd think everybody in CA would know better; but I've stomped out my share of burning butts around here. It was on city streets where they wouldn't start a fire; but you know those bad habits get taken right up into the hills, along the byways...

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    10. Re:This is not... by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      At least with the Whale song probe, they'd have weather that helps by providing rain instead of high heat and winds.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    11. Re:This is not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's one in every crowd...

    12. Re:This is not... by Cryacin · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are making far too much sense. Please promptly delete your slashdot account.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    13. Re:This is not... by hutsell · · Score: 1

      It's more likely that some, perhaps a lot of these fires, including this one, are arson — initially started by people directly or indirectly related to fire departments:

      California Arsons by Firefighters
      Firefighter Arsons
      Percentage of Arsons by Firefighters

      Putting constructive criticism aside ... even one, is one too many.

      --
      Yesterday's Weirdness is Tomorrow's Reason Why
    14. Re:This is not... by AaronW · · Score: 1

      I believe in this case the fire was started by lightning. Back when the natives lived here they used to intentionally start fires to burn the underbrush.

      --
      This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
    15. Re:This is not... by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Smoker here, I don't know about the US but tossing a butt out the window on a total fire ban day here in Australia is looked upon by society as a kind of negligent arson. Most fires here start naturally (lightning), next major cause is power lines, third major cause are the mentally ill, ie: real arsonists.

      As for managing the bush with fire, Australian Aborigines have been doing that for maybe 30-40,000yrs.

      For example they used fire to clear paths through trees surrounding water, the paths were wider at the top than the bottom where they met the water and were covered in tall grass, the old growth forest either side of the path acted like the walls of a canyon. The natives would regularly burn the grass at the bottom of the path to encourage new green shoots. Kangaroos were attracted to the water and new grass, but they were also trapped in a dead end. Whenever the locals got hungry there was no running all over the countryside for days throwing sharp sticks at a high velocity dinner, they just strolled down the path and clubbed the first roo that panicked and tried to get past them. This landscaping of the environment appears to be the reason that they didn't go the traditional farming route like the Torres straight islanders did, (ie: planting plants and domesticating animals).

      The two people's traded with each other regularly so the practise was known to aborigines. I can see their point, why bother with all that work when a bit of clever planning will create a natural pantry right on your doorstep. You want Wild Turkey for dinner? - Just burn a small patch of grass in the late afternoon and wait for one to come looking for his own dinner. You want fish? - just pull a fresh one out of the small pond at the end of the tribes stone fish traps. Vegetables take more skill and knowledge, you need to know where and when to burn in order to promote the growth of food plants. All this knowledge was wrapped in layers of religion and ceremony, which was simply called "the law" (pretty much in the same way the old testament was at one time "the law")

      What we white fella's call "pristine old growth forest", aboriginal elders call "poor country, been let go wild". 20kyrs before other civilizations started making huge earth or stone works, these people were sculpting an entire continent into a carefully manicured estate using fire. These days, many aborigines in the north and west of the country are now employed by the government to manage their lands using traditional burning methods, in the south east of the country where the natives and their culture have been all but wiped out, white fella's do regular slow burns in the winter and maintain fire-breaks in the forests. But when a severe multi-year drought hits the best you can hope for is nobody gets killed in the inevitable firestorm. It really is a crying shame that it has taken us 200yrs just to start recognising the unique agricultural and land management practices that were staring Captain Cook in the face when he stuck a flag in the beach.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    16. Re:This is not... by InfiniteLoopCounter · · Score: 1

      According to Wikipedia all they achieved in various tribal groups was the conversion of forest to grasslands. Much better to use science and rational thought to decide what we actually want as an outcome in the future.

    17. Re:This is not... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      If wildfires are increasing, my first suspect is the decades of fuel we stored when the states had enough money to put out every spark. Now we don't have the money, but we have all that fuel stored.

      Pretty much this. The suppression paradigm only allowed fuel to build up over time. Droughts occur for too many reasons for any one to be attributed to AGW. And in many places on the left coast, the flora is designed for fire. So although it is trendy to apply AGW to everything these days, no one event can be assigned the AGW stamp

      I'm personally more inclined to believe that the California area is overpopulated beyond what it can reasonably sustain. This is more of a problem at the moment than AGW. In addition, the Nimby mindset means that incidents far away from one place can threaten another's energy source.

      Those rooftop solar panels are looking pretty good about now.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    18. Re:This is not... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      No, but I'm sure it must be George Bush's fault...

      Harry Truman's fault, you insensitive clod.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    19. Re:This is not... by istartedi · · Score: 1

      OK, did some more googling. Actually I'm a bit surprised at the breakdown with cigarettes coming in at 1%.

      There are pie charts like this from various states, and the highest percentage for cigarettes was 5%. Different regions have different characteristis. For example, it's much less likely for lightning to start a fire in Virginia because the vegetation is wetter.

      I don't feel like googling the laws; but I bet you can get criminal penalties for a cigarette-caused fire in the US too. It seems like you could certainly get sued into oblivion if they can prove it's your fault.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    20. Re:This is not... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 2

      It's supposed to be in the Presidio, but the movie shot put it in the Marin headlands.

      --
      Bruce Perens.
    21. Re:This is not... by dryeo · · Score: 2

      Fir trees, neither true Firs (Abies) nor Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga IIRC) need fire to open their cones. What Douglas Fir needs is fire to open up the forest as they're not shade tolerant. Most (all?) true firs are shade tolerant. Jack Pine and to a lesser extend some of the other pines do need fire to open their cones and at least in the BC interior massive amounts of fuel are building up due to the Pine Beetle, which does seem to be related to climate warming as the winters are no longer cold enough to control the Pine Beetle.
      Of interest is that Vancouver Island seems to have had island wide fires every thousand or so years judging by the Douglas Fir forests that existed until we cut them down.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    22. Re:This is not... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      "ERM" it ain't the wet season at the moment hence you argument is non-germane. As for appropriate seasonal burns, this requires a full funded and effective fire service. You do not start fires and ever just let them burn. Each and every burn is carefully planned, people are notified and fire breaks prepared (to ensure the burn occurs in pre-designed stages). Once the burn starts fire fighters are on hand waiting to control and limit the burn as necessary. It most certainly is not the aboriginal fire stick farming of yore but a costly, carefully controlled and professionally managed activity. One thing of more modern consideration is how ancient fire stick farming practices altered the ecology and whether promoting more fire resistant growths rather than growths that actually promote fires for reproductive advantage, is the more suitable goal.

      The more fire fronts that occur the more likely that they are being purposefully started. However due to squeezed funding and ticket quota's no one is out there monitoring and investigating.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    23. Re:This is not... by mysidia · · Score: 1

      On the other hand... if they allow power to be not operating in San Francisco for a significant length of time; global warming could be reduced due to reduction in capacity requirements from power plants in the area, resulting in more generators being turned off.

    24. Re:This is not... by hutsell · · Score: 1

      On the other hand... if they allow power to be not operating in San Francisco for a significant length of time; global warming could be reduced due to reduction in capacity requirements from power plants in the area, resulting in more generators being turned off.

      However, there are factors making the global warming thing go in the opposite direction. Fwiw, 15% of California's electricity is generated by hydroelectric plants. A legend showing all of the operational plants in California makes it easier to see what might happen if they stop producing power — the oil powered plants will compensate for the loss by kicking in with extra output. This is what happened during the Enron fiasco 12 years ago when the State experimented with private sector market pricing.

      --
      Yesterday's Weirdness is Tomorrow's Reason Why
    25. Re:This is not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      20 years ago Southern California had a problem, and may still the same problem. Local agencies and governments wanted to do controlled burns. But, the Federal government wanted to decrease the number of days air quality in the region fell below certain levels. And the Feds backed it up with carrots and sticks, I think Federal Funds sent to the region. So, local Congress-people tried to get special exemptions regarding air quality during days of controlled burns, but were unsuccessful. End result at the time was some, many? controlled burns were, ahem, put on the back burner.

      About 1985 there was a controlled burn above Altadena toward La Canada. In 1993 a fire started east about 5 miles, and whipped by hot weather and winds burned over 150 homes in hours (some were owned by people I knew). As it moved west and met with the controlled burned area done in "1985" it's westward move stopped dead in it's tracks.

      Ironically, one of the largest fires ever in California, the largest in LA County history, The Station Fire in 2009 started in the area of the 1985 controlled burn.

      I looked up that fire in Wikipedia, the source of all, often accurate knowledge, adds another factor:

      "Invasive, non-native vegetation dies and re-sprouts year after year creating an unnatural buildup of dead plant material.[3] While periodic fires are natural, and many native plants depend upon fire to reproduce,[4] the intensity and frequency of these fires is altered by the presence of non-natives. [5]" [For sources see Wikipedia, 2009 California Wildfires

      Non-native plants around here include mustards, rye grass, tumbleweeds, and I'm sure hundred other. Ironically, rye grass seed has been used to seed burnt out areas in California in order to lesson flooding and mudflow for when the rainy seasons come, usually 2-4 months after wildfires.

    26. Re:This is not... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      I think you want to say "this is not not caused by global warming." The fire releases large amounts of CO2 while at the same time destroying plants which would otherwise consume CO2, so I can well imagine that this does indeed have an effect on global warming.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    27. Re:This is not... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      "ERM" it ain't the wet season at the moment hence you argument is non-germane.

      He did not argue that this fire is a good one that shouldn't be put out. This one is clearly a bad fire out of control that ought to be put out.

      What he argues is that the reason this fire got that bad is because in the wet season, too few fires have been left burning. I have no idea whether what he claims is true, but please don't argue something he didn't even claim.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    28. Re:This is not... by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Those rooftop solar panels are looking pretty good about now.

      Until smoke and ash block the sun...

    29. Re:This is not... by Entropius · · Score: 1

      No, it's probably not.

      Wildfires have been a part of the Western ecosystem for gajillions of years. There are lots of plants that have seeds that only germinate after a fire, or are specialized at recolonizing previously burned areas. What's not natural is putting out fires. Since we started doing that, brush has built up, and now when things burn they *really* burn -- hot enough to kill trees that can survive the natural wildfires. It's going to take a cycle of these large fires to reset the ecology to what the plants are adapted to.

    30. Re:This is not... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Fast-burning fires that were set every year by Natives who lived in California for over 10,000 years were also good, as they also cleared out the underbrush. Some of our early laws prohibited natives from setting these fires. Look how well that turned out!

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    31. Re:This is not... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Fire is not always the answer. But some forests run on it (like redwoods, they need fire to reproduce) and the Oaks in the West could certainly take it if it happened yearly.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    32. Re:This is not... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Those rooftop solar panels are looking pretty good about now.

      Until smoke and ash block the sun...

      That would be pretty horrifying if it reached SF. On a related note, I use the amorphous panels myself. Not as efficient as the crystalline ones, but as long as there is light, they work pretty well. The crystalline ones like full sun, no shade cutting across them anywhere,

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    33. Re:This is not... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      On the one hand they release CO2

      Yes, but it's CO2 that was recently (by geological timescales) taken from the atmosphere. The CO2 problems stem from burning carbon that's been sequestered for millions of years.

      --
      Free Martian Whores!
    34. Re:This is not... by metaforest · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the changes in Forest Management are about 50 years too late. These large mismanaged forests have built up so much fuel that even off-season fires are not easily controlled. Inaccessibility makes it impossibly expensive to go in and thin the fuel load. Preventing fires in these areas simply delays the inevitable. The adjoining regions that have been managed more appropriately suffer as well. Fires that develop in mismanaged areas tend to burn into these improved areas, destroying them and any benefit that improved management provided.

      These devastating burnovers will not stop until ALL of these fire tempered forests are managed properly.

      IAAEFFT (I Am An Ex-Forest Fire Tech.)

  2. No big deal. by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

    As long as our fernet supply is in good shape, we'll be fine.

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
  3. Not to worry, by budgenator · · Score: 3, Informative

    Rain is in the forcast for the area, it should put out the fire just before the mud-slides start.

    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    1. Re:Not to worry, by nojayuk · · Score: 2

      "Flyover" -- that's when the tornadoes sweep through and double-wides blot out the sun?

    2. Re:Not to worry, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One is forced to wonder what compels people to live on a slab of land that is destined to roll into the ocean,...

      As a former east-coaster, now living in California for several years I asked the same question. I'll try to keep this brief.

      If I had to keep it really brief and use just two words they would be "Mediterranean climate". Some of the most disaster prone areas of the state feature this climate. Cool wet winters (the rainy season) with snow only on the peaks, and rarely at the lower levels where most people live. Summers are sunny almost all the time.

      Think Italy. In fact, I've been told that the Bay Area has a significant Italian community because 19th century immigrants wanted a climate similar to home. Italy is even more off the hook--hello volcano! With a Mediterranean climate *and* rich volcanic soil though, you get fantastic agriculture and we know Italians love their food.

      Of course the gold rush, ports, military and then technology growing out of the military all lead to a huge explosion in population. It just so happens that some of the best places in the world to mine gold and grow oranges are located near active seismic zones. There isn't a whole lot you can do about it.

      Aside from that, there are ways to mitigate against disaster. Mudslides and fire are seasonal possibilities and most people actually don't live in areas that will burn and slide. Those that do usually know the risk. The media always wants to show people crying, because well... that's the media. You don't talk too much about disaster here. Who wants to talk about it? I bet most people are a bit more stoic when their time comes though. Anyway, most people live on flat ground, near faults.

      The earthquake is something that happens on a geological timescale rather than seasonal. I've heard one person say you get one great earthquake in your lifetime. That's not quite true; but it's close. In a modern building, standards are high. If the "big one" hits, yes, some people will die even in structures that are up to code. It's a trade-off though. Do you want to die a healthy 80 year old who exercises in good weather all the time, sliding down a hill? Or... do you want to die less healthy at a younger age, from old age diseases because the weather is nasty and you don't feel like doing much during the winter except watching football and drinking beer?

    3. Re:Not to worry, by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      "Flyover" -- that's when the tornadoes sweep through and double-wides blot out the sun?

      No, it's where NFL teams come from that repeatedly make it to the Superbowl, and then choke.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    4. Re:Not to worry, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      1) World renowned beautiful scenery? like what?

      Like Yosemite, Tahoe, Napa, Mendocino, J-Tree...the list is quite long. I'm not one of those city dwellers who never leaves...there's a ton of stuff to see here in California. The knock was against living in California, not just San Francisco.

      2) Mild weather? If by that you mean 48 degrees in Santa Cruz, 93 degrees in Cupertino, sure, it's super mild.

      Yes, that's mild when compared places in the fly-over states that routinely hit triple digits and get snow in the winter. Outside of the hurricane belt, where else in the country will you find yearly temperatures that are always above freezing and always below 100?

      3) Great fresh local produce? As if no place else has farms? All those flyover states you poo-poo'ed have a whole lot of farms.

      Yes, and they grow corn, soy and other large-monoculture-type crops. California has a lot more variety in the crops grown here. There's a lot that you can grow when you don't have to worry about freezing in winter.

      4) diverse communities? I think those are where your seasonal farmhands - excuse me "cultural diversity ambassadors" - live.

      Wow...you've got all the stereotypes...despite gentrification, there's still a ton of diversity in California's large cities. You don't find that in the fly-overs (with the possible exception of Chicago). And despite your "all you have are Mexicans" insinuations, the larger demographic shift here is toward Asians (Indians and Chinese, mostly.).

      They're not all Loma Prieta or Northridge, but they sure as fuck happen more than once every 6 years.

      Yes, there are lots of tiny earthquakes that are barely felt. You occasionally feel one, but you get used to that and it doesn't cause damage. Silly me for ignoring all the ones that cause no damage, let alone fatalities.

    5. Re:Not to worry, by InfiniteLoopCounter · · Score: 1

      Or you could live in Australia where there are Fire Tondados!

    6. Re: Not to worry, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I was born in Chicago, and lived there and many of the suburbs for 12 years of my life. I fucking hated it as a child. We moved out of that fuck hole to Southern California and then I moved to the San Francisco Bay Area after high school.

      I had the unfortunate experience of living as an adult for the 2011/2012 year in the Twin Cities, which was one of the mildest years on record. I was still fucking miserable. Let me count the shit: tornadoes, blizzards, hail, humidity, mosquitoes, black ice, and not being able to see the fucking lanes on the road due heavy rain or snow because there are no lane bumps or reflectors (and don't bring up plowing because California seems to have no problem with them on roads which get plowed in the winter). Just what I want to do while I freeze my balls off, let the car warm up for 10 minutes while I scrape the concrete like ice off the windows. And here I thought I would never have a use for the heated seats. I once nearly had my nose burned off due to the wind chill.

      I will take the occasional (10-50 years) earthquake, forest fires, and droughts (which affect most of the country including places that seem to have lots of water like Minnesota and Illinois). And I still have relatives that live in Illinois that would love to get the fuck out if they had a job waiting for them and could afford to move to a place with better weather.

      Only crazy fucks like you say, "you get used to it."

    7. Re:Not to worry, by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      Rain is in the forcast for the area, it should put out the fire just before the mud-slides start.

      I know this is a joke post, but I'll reply since it's been modded +4 informative.

      No, rain hasn't been forecast in the area. Humidity during the day is around 20%.

      Also, no, there aren't mudslides in burnt areas in this part of the state. The soil and root systems are quite different from those in southern California.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    8. Re:Not to worry, by hutsell · · Score: 1

      Or you could live in Australia where there are Fire Tondados!

      Apparently the land down under was actually meant to be a direct reference to Hell itself — Australia: occasionally strange and subtly bad-ass.

      --
      Yesterday's Weirdness is Tomorrow's Reason Why
    9. Re:Not to worry, by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Mudslides and fire are seasonal possibilities...

      Many years ago, I wrote that "Los Angeles really does have four seasons: fire, flood, earthquake and riot." Fire season can come at any time of the year, and it's defined as sixty days without measurable rain. Fire season can, and sometimes does turn into flood season with remarkably little warning, which is why the city plants rye grass on hillsides after a fire to limit the chance of mudslides if there's rain before the normal ground cover has time to recover. Earthquake season, of course happens at random intervals without warning, while riot season comes about once every twenty years or so.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    10. Re: Not to worry, by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      Aha, I'm not alone in hating the lack of lane bumps/reflectors on roads in the Midwest.

      I'm from Australia but recently moved to Wisconsin, which like its neighbour to the west also suffers from all the things you mention. But yeah, the lack of road reflectors drives me nuts - rainy weather is the worst but even just driving at night is bad in some spots where the lane markings are faded.

      Compared to Australia where they use a lot number of reflectors marking the edges of the road (denser than anywhere I've seen in the US, including CA) and every lane (putting your high beams on at night makes it look like a aircraft landing strip - a really bright line of red, yellow and white reflectors stretching off into the distance.

      I always thought that it was because of snow plowing too ... but you say they use them in CA on roads that get plowed without issues? Hmmm. I guess they are just cheap asses in the Midwest then.

    11. Re: Not to worry, by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The bat shit insane is almost all on the coast. Try the CA central valley. More heat in the summer, still no humidity...dontyaknow.

      The best thing about CA: No Ludafisk or Ludafisk eaters. None.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    12. Re: Not to worry, by budgenator · · Score: 1

      In Michigan I've seen the road lane reflectors used experimentally; they went for the elvated reflectors instead of making the rational choise of recesed reflectors. A lot of highways and expressways are recieving rumble strips which are better than nothing in heavy rain.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  4. Why is this here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The world doesn't revolve around San Francisco. I come here for tech news,not regurgitated MSM local articles.

    1. Re:Why is this here? by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

      They shut down part of the electric power grid due to fire threat. That may not be quite as thrilling as Mankind's latest advances at Fukushima, but I, for one, think it notable.

      --
      They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  5. Hetch Hetcy by djupedal · · Score: 2

    Hetch Hechy is why SF is dependent on that area. Some ecologists claim that flooding it, saved it, as it is another Yosemite. Let's hope this calamity doesn't lead anyone to rethink that decision.

    1. Re:Hetch Hetcy by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Unlikely, as it sounds like it would be incredibly expensive to do so, and not really gain anyone anything. There are those who believe it should have never been built, but that time has come and gone and removing it wouldn't get back what was lost without a lot of work and extra costs for SF.

  6. Special water? by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one wondering how water in California can be threatened by fire?

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    1. Re:Special water? by dbc · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, first off, Hetch Hetchty never should have been built. That aside..,..

      The country around there is very rugged. Its hard to imagine without seeing it. The last two winters have seen 70% of normal snow-pack, so the area is very dry. Normal annual precipitation is 11 inches. There has been no rain since April or so, which is normal. I have a cabin 30 or so miles to the south. Not threatened by this fire, but the road to my place was a firebreak for the "Telegraph Fire" of a couple of years ago -- I had orange grass for a few days from fire retardant bombings.

      Here is the deal.... the country is so extremely rugged that you *do* *not* send fire crews anywhere near an active crown fire, it can jump them in minutes and you end up with 100 roasted fire fighters and a dozen burned up Cats. There are placed where if a rancher's cattle get down in a valley full of rocks, they can't get up, and you can't ride a horse down there anyway to bring them back up. Totally forget about driving a 4WD vehicle in there, you parked that back with the horse trailer because it couldn't go any further. Taking a Cat down those slopes is suicidal. So all the fire equipment comes in and out on fire roads, which are few, narrow, and very rough. There are placed I've wanted to see, but after 40 minutes of 20 MPH kindney-busting driving in a 4WD pick-up, I turned around. That is a fire road. That is your escape route. The *one* escape route. You don't go into the fire on those, you go outside the edge of the fire, start cool-burning back-fires and cut fire breaks, and call in fire-retardant tanker bombers.

      So... the powerlines to the Hetch Hetchy and the water pipeline out of it and down the foothills run through the threatened area. The fire can easily take out the power lines. I don't know about the aquaduct, but I suspect it is vulnerable also.

      I'm relieved this time that there are two major river canyons between my cabin and the fire. My sympathy goes out to those in the path of the fire -- it's gut-wrenching to have one get close.

    2. Re:Special water? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Next time, maybe haul your fat ass on your legs, rather than relying on a big oil-burner while increasing backcountry erosion, and you might get to where you want to go.

      At 20MPH in rough road conditions? Not ever going to happen even if you're Iron Man-level fit though I suppose you might be able to do it on a mountain bike, but that's going to be a different sort of kidney busting.

      And what happens if he's trying to haul half a ton of stuff? There are other reasons to having a vehicle than merely tooling down the block because you're lazy.

    3. Re:Special water? by dbc · · Score: 2

      Ah ha! Someone who can math. You are right, the hike would have been a major undertaking. The right answer to get to those places is an overnight horse-pack trip.

      Anyway, I'm used to city people in California giving me crap about my 4X4 (which acually is a small, fuel-efficient one). Of course, they've never been caught in the mountains in 8 inches of wet snow two miles from the nearest maintained road and one mile to the nearest neighbor. In those conditions, your choices are: 1) take a chance on a 4X4, 2) use the old reliable horse (but I don't keep a horse), 3) Make the food in the pantry last, 4) hike in the snow. City people make a lot of bad assumptions.

      Cowboys have a saying: "All hat, no cattle." It is used to describe somebody who hasn't lived the situtation, and who's opinion therefore isn't worth much.

    4. Re:Special water? by musth · · Score: 1

      You were talking about using your 4x4 to go to places you "wanted to see". That's not a survival use of your 4x4.

    5. Re:Special water? by dbc · · Score: 1

      OK, first off, I was making a point about fire roads, how they are used, and why they are used that way. Is your hatred of motor vehicles so deep that you can't see the point I was trying to illustrate? Does your hatred of motor vehicles invalidate the point I was trying to make? I take it that you don't own any motor vehicles, or ever ride in one when offered. Or perhaps you check the fuel usage per average passenger-mile (accouting for actual ridership numbers) and don't ride in anything with a poor number -- ie: you never take a city bus.

      Next time you visit Mariposa, bring along some topo maps and I'll give you the coordinates of some interesting places for you to go see. On foot. Every step of the way.(*) I just don't get where your anger is coming from, and why you make such assumptions about me, my back-country skills, and my level of physical fitness. How exactly is your anger adding information to the discussion of the challenges of fighting a back-country fire?

      (*) Don't forget your snake-bite kit.

    6. Re:Special water? by khallow · · Score: 1

      You were talking about using your 4x4 to go to places you "wanted to see". That's not a survival use of your 4x4.

      I didn't realize those were survival use only. You learn something new on Slashdot every day.

    7. Re:Special water? by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      What's funny is that I thought literally the exact opposite. You're going 20MPH and you think the road is too rough? That's just a county road that needs to be graded!

    8. Re:Special water? by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Minnesota is substantially flatter than the Sierras.

    9. Re:Special water? by Entropius · · Score: 1

      fuel usage per average passenger-mile (accouting for actual ridership numbers) and don't ride in anything with a poor number -- ie: you never take a city bus.

      I wish more people brought this up. (I'm stuck in a city full of fauxvironmentalists -- and noisy awful polluting buses which get less passenger MPG than a Yaris with two passengers.)

      Don't understand why everyone's giving you grief -- as you said, the land out there is ridiculously rugged. Ten miles in the mountains is a totally different ball game than ten miles in Minnesota.

    10. Re:Special water? by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      Yeah um, MN is as flat as a pancake. That's the difference.

      (Coming from someone living next door in WI which is also as flat as a pancake, but grew up in a mountainous area in which any snow made non 4x4 driving essentially impossible).

    11. Re:Special water? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Because 4x4's value as a driving feature is not related to snow.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  7. It's a search and rescue operation. by tlambert · · Score: 2

    It's a search and rescue operation. Once we find Tony Bennett's heart, we're all moving some place safer.

  8. It's easier to push water than to pull it. by tlambert · · Score: 4, Informative

    Am I the only one wondering how water in California can be threatened by fire?

    It's easier to push water than to pull it. So the pumping stations which are needed to push the water up hill are located at the bottom of the hill, and there is infrastructure in place along the rim (it's a rim fire) to supply power to those facilities. It's the same reason that electric power is currently at risk by the fire.

    Unfortunately, people who do not understand land management have been making rules about fire roads,controlled burns, and removal of scrub for the last number of decades, which means when a fire like this happens, it tends to be a multi-hundred-thousand acre conflagration.

    1. Re:It's easier to push water than to pull it. by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      I'd also point out that it's shocking how little so many of these federal employees know about anything. Forest rangers at Stanislaus, for instance, will tell you that roads do not exist, that the (horrible) maps they have for sale are the only routes, and when you ask them the names of specific landmarks, they have absolutely no clue. I spent quite a bit of time in the area a few years back, and learned quickly to avoid at all costs all forest rangers. They're absolutely misinformative, arrogant, rude, and incompetent. I'm not talking about dirt roads, either; I'm talking about paved county roads within their jurisdictions. They'd deny roads existed, lie about weather a road was paved or not, and just generally be remarkable obstacles.

    2. Re:It's easier to push water than to pull it. by retrosurf · · Score: 1

      There are no pumping stations between Hetch Hetchy and the SF Bay Area.
      The system operates by gravity alone.

  9. Firefighters have been hampered by... by sribe · · Score: 1

    Firefighters have been hampered by a lack of moisture from the sky and on the ground.

    No shit, sherlock. Fires rage where the moisture isn't.

    And no, I'm not merely being snarky about people living in semi-arid areas. I live in one, right in the so-called "red zone" forest interface, and we have no fires right now because we're getting all the rain this year.

  10. I know where those particulates are... by kimanaw · · Score: 2

    In Reno, NV. The air here has been horrid for several days, supposedly worse than Beijing yesterday. My lungs and eyes burn, my throat hurts, and I'm dealing with intermittent headaches. And I've been staying indoors as much as possible. Hope our usual windy weather returns soon!

    --
    007: "Who are you?"
    Pussy: "My name is Pussy Galore."
    007: "I must be dreaming..."
    1. Re:I know where those particulates are... by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      I was there last week and there was really bad smoke from the American fire, which is still burning. You might be getting both that and the Rim fire.

      --
      Bruce Perens.
    2. Re:I know where those particulates are... by the+phantom · · Score: 2

      Indeed. We were getting smoked out by the American fire, then the winds changed. We are now getting smoked out by the Rim fire. I live within walking distance of the University, and couldn't see my office from home this morning. 125k acres and only 5% contained. Joy.

      --
      Rhapsody in Numbers
  11. Re:A good test by EmagGeek · · Score: 1, Funny

    Nah, San Francisco is a bunch of dirty leftist hippies. They're accustomed to being unshowered and when TSHTF they'll just gather around the campfire and sing kumbayah and wait for big government to come save them.

  12. Mod -5 incorrect by hoboroadie · · Score: 4, Informative

    How about we be generous and say that poor land practices have exacerbated the benefits of this Anthropogenically-induced Drought. Climate change was not the only cause.

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
    1. Re:Mod -5 incorrect by Cryacin · · Score: 4, Funny

      I read that as wildlife threatens power and water to San Francisco. Here I was with images of Bison with Bazookas. Maybe I should lay off the coffee a bit on Sundays.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    2. Re:Mod -5 incorrect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Considering it's Saturday, I'd agree.

    3. Re:Mod -5 incorrect by houghi · · Score: 2

      You could also say that Water and power to San Francisco threatens wildlife.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    4. Re:Mod -5 incorrect by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Isn't this good? I mean, it's shutting down power generation and stopping the siphoning of water away from it's natural course. This has to be considered a complete Win by the environmental movement.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    5. Re:Mod -5 incorrect by Zaiff+Urgulbunger · · Score: 1

      I read that as wildlife threatens power and water to San Francisco. Here I was with images of Bison with Bazookas. Maybe I should lay off the coffee a bit on Sundays.

      Nope, you were correct the first time. This is what it has come to, and now it's them or us!

    6. Re:Mod -5 incorrect by the+real+darkskye · · Score: 1

      Bison with Bazookas? Things have Escalated since Cows with Guns! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

      --
      Music is everybody's possession.
      It's only publishers who think that people own it.
      Fuck Beta
      ~John Lenno
  13. Re:Is anyone getting this? by KarlIsNotMyName · · Score: 1

    So many real issues to worry about, why get caught up in the ludicrousness that is the idea of the 9/11/01 conspiracy?

    Or if nothing else, just think about this; they didn't actually have to make it happen, to be able to take advantage of the event once it did happen. 9/11/01 happened, whatever lead to it. And it was abused to gain the government powers it didn't need, powers it used in ways that don't benefit the public. We know that. We don't need to rely on conspiracymongering to see that there are wrongdoings, and that there are many politicians and heads of government agencies who at the very least should be out of a job, in not in jail.

    --
    We are all God's parents.
  14. Groveland by Natales · · Score: 2

    I for one, am more concerned about the classic little towns like Groveland that live out of the tourism coming in and out of Yosemite. My wife and I go to Yosemite at least a couple of times per year, and we always stay in Groveland, a tiny town with such an old gold rush history and character. They've got the Iron Door Saloon, the oldest saloon in California dating from 1852, The Groveland Hotel that used to be a brothel and where every one of the rooms is named like "Lotta Crabtree", "Betty Fries Room" and "Just Juanita".

    Right now I'm less concerned about our water supply vs. the lives and livelihood of their residents and rich history of all those places.

    1. Re:Groveland by BancBoy · · Score: 1

      They've got the Iron Door Saloon, the oldest saloon in California dating from 1852 ... Right now I'm less concerned about our water supply vs. the lives and livelihood of their residents and rich history of all those places.

      Ah yes, the Iron Door Saloon. Part of the reason it is the oldest saloon in California is that it is named for the Iron Doors on the place. Which they have shut numerous times since 1852 as a fire sweeps through the area. And when the fire has passed, the Iron Doors open and they survey the damage and start serving!

      --
      [UID-HeinzIntel]
  15. What about Google? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

    If the power to their own servers gets cut off - do they have a peering agreement with the NSA?

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:What about Google? by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

      Google's in Mountain View, about 40 miles from SF, so it shouldn't be affected.

      --
      Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
    2. Re:What about Google? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      And Mountain View is on a different source of power?

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
  16. Re:Mega Maid from Spaceballs by DoubleJ1024 · · Score: 1

    Sir, it's MEGA MAID...she's gone from suck to BLOW!!!!!!

  17. Some people are 0 miles away by nick0909 · · Score: 2

    This fire is burning right next to actual people, not sure why we need to worry about SF 200 miles away. Actual people are right on the fire line in danger, they should be the ones reported on. I know this is a tech site and the bay is the tech center, but remember the firefighters and civilians that are actually on site, and not just experiencing a minor inconvenience.

    1. Re:Some people are 0 miles away by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

      I think the focus is just on the electrical/water problem, and possibly how it will affect the technological industries there, so the sad reality that people & animals are suffering is considered irrelevant since this is about tech news. (I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it, since Slashdot tends to only cover disasters if it involves science and/or technology in some way.)

      --
      Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
    2. Re:Some people are 0 miles away by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      This fire is burning right next to actual people, not sure why we need to worry about SF 200 miles away. Actual people are right on the fire line in danger, they should be the ones reported on. I know this is a tech site and the bay is the tech center, but remember the firefighters and civilians that are actually on site, and not just experiencing a minor inconvenience.

      Thank you. This morning the visibility from my house at the edge of the evacuation zone was under 100 feet. I couldn't see the house across the street. The effect on SF is smaller than the effect on Groveland, Pine Mountain Lake, Tuolumne City, and even Reno.

      Another point that should be made is that SF is almost exactly 100 miles west, not 200. I wonder who came up with the 200 number and why it stuck. You know what's 200 miles east of SF? Nevada.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    3. Re:Some people are 0 miles away by mysidia · · Score: 1

      This fire is burning right next to actual people, not sure why we need to worry about SF 200 miles away.

      The loss of power and water supplies to metropolitan San Francisco; is a potentially more serious event; not that a wildfire destroying homes isn't serious. Where will you evacuate all the inhabitants of San Francisco to, who haven't stocked up on potable water, and how will you keep them alive?

    4. Re:Some people are 0 miles away by dbc · · Score: 2

      Where will you evacuate all the inhabitants of San Francisco to, who haven't stocked up on potable water, and how will you keep them alive?

      a) Not to where I live, and b) do we have to?

      Actually, the situation isn't that dire. They can buy power from other utilities, and just in case you haven't noticed, SF is one town where having an air conditioner is pretty much pointless, so a brownout or rolling blackouts means eating cold sandwiches, no one dies of heat prostration or from lack of heat. Secondly, they can get water from other towns in the pennisula. All of the cities sell water back and forth from their wells or other capture sources. And the rule "if it's yellow, let it mellow" saves a lot of water.

    5. Re:Some people are 0 miles away by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Some people build homes out of fire-resistant materials when they live in the potential path of forest fires. Others simply have the foresight to clear sufficient space around their homes, or to plant fire-resistant landscaping. Not sure why we need to worry about people who volunteered to be burned to a crisp.

      With that said, I sure wish the landlords would maintain firebreaks here. I do have a chainsaw, so in an emergency I can run around and topple trees until either I make a decent one or one falls on me...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Some people are 0 miles away by danomac · · Score: 1

      And the rule "if it's yellow, let it mellow" saves a lot of water.

      I take it you haven't used the washroom shortly after eating a really garlicy dish (or some asparagus, for that matter...)

  18. Re:Is anyone getting this? by slick7 · · Score: 1

    Conspiracy-mongering? The beginning to wisdom is in asking what is not known. To label, to stifle legitimate inquiries, to ensure certain questions or questioners disappear from the forefront speaks volumes. None of it good, or to the benefit of children or national security. I was reminded today of what JFK said about secrecy, it should not be tolerated.

    --
    The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
  19. Re:I'm hoping that SF suffers from this fire by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

    Wake them up to what? And what of all of the people in SF that either are already aware of whatever you're thinking of, too young/old/unwell for it to matter, visitors (like parents staying at the Ronald McDonald House while their kids are hospitalized at UCSF for weeks at a time), working or volunteering in the city but living far away?

    --
    Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
  20. Re:a result of eco-freaks by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

    Aa a result of the eco-freaks preventing natural fires for so long, then letting them go...they get what they deserve.

    Not this fire.

    --
    "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
  21. Some interesting footage. by dbc · · Score: 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rN4OIS9NkI

    Note that in the river canyons and also closer to Yosemite the country is a lot more rugged.

  22. "Tinder Dry" by hoboroadie · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was going up Briones Road yesterday and stopped to let a doe cross the road, and noticed a wisp o' smoke on the shoulder. I did not realize how dry it was until I saw how long it took me to put that out, every little blade of grass just wouldn't go out, and somehow magically passed on the smolder. I think I spent over three minutes, the dog was pretty pissed.
    I watched a broken Miller bottle bottle start dry grass on fire once a long time ago. Very surreal, like the time I watched oily rags spontaneously go. (That one is probably pretty repeatable.)

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  23. Re:Marin by hoboroadie · · Score: 1

    ...and its easier to find rolling green hills with trees to add graphics to.

    --
    They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  24. Laugh by koan · · Score: 1

    'This fire is very dynamic.'

    To bad our electrical grid isn't.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."