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German NSA Critic Denied Entry To the US
An anonymous reader writes "Major newspapers in Germany (FAZ, Die Welt, SZ, ...) and the Huffington Post report that the author Ilja Trojanow has been prevented from boarding a plane from Salvador da Bahia to the U.S. where he was invited to attend a conference. He had ESTA documents showing that his visit was approved as part of the Visa Waiver Program and was last year given a visa to teach at the university of Saint Louis. Trojanow was one of the initiators of an open letter (Google translation to English) urging Chancellor Merkel to take actions against NSA surveillance in Germany."
Since we are going full-on Totalitarian Police State, can we get cool Hugo Boss suits with colorful arm bands?
Time for DHS/FEMA to start filling up those Concentration Camps they've been building.
This pretty much blows away the "trust the government - it would never abuse its power" argument the apologists like to trot out so readily.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
You can thank the NSA for stopping this wanton criminal before he can enter the US.
... the story only shows that German media outlets are not familiar with US entry regulations. He says that he was denied a visa last year, which automatically disqualifies him from the visa waiver program. This is just a garden-variety ESTA issue, and most likely has nothing to do with his stance of the NSA surveillance.
OS Reviews: Free and Open Source Software
Probably more due to the fact that there simply isn't anyone around to process his visa and let him into the country.
No one is claiming he has a "right" to enter the US.
Quite a few of us are wondering what is happening to our land of the free, however. This guy was coming to attend an academic conference.
That said, TFA is not really journalism, and fails to even mention an attempt to contact American authorities for an explanation.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
there is no right to enter the USA unless you are a Native American
There, fixed it for you.
No, but I do remember when artists critical of the war were denied entry into the United States under Bush...
"Schon vergangenes Jahr hatte das amerikanische Konsulat in München meinen Antrag auf ein Arbeitsvisum zum Zwecke einer Gastprofessur an der Washington University in St. Louis zuerst negativ beschieden und erst nach Protesten der UniversitÃt und einer erheblichen VerzÃgerung, die einen Teil des Semesters nutzlos vergehen lieÃY, das Visum erteilt"
Already last year had firstly denied the american consulat in Munic the request for work visa as guest professor in university st louis, and only after protest of the university et delay , with which made a part of the semester useless , gave the visa.
Therefore this is all US BS.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Since when
Until this guy was stopped. We are the country that hosts the damn UN. What the heck are we afraid of? This guy is totally non-violent.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
"Since when does a foreign citizen who actively works AGAINST the interests of the US government allowed freedoms to enter the United States?"
Freedom means just that, allowing disagreements, if you let only people have freedom who agree with you, that's not freedom.
The NSA works against the interest of the US, since it makes millions of customer move their online business to Non-US entities.
Since when does a foreign citizen who actively works AGAINST the interests of the US government allowed freedoms to enter the United States?
since you allowed dissident opinions. you used to. are you trying to argue that anyone who visits usa should be an active traitor to their own country in order to gain access? you got any idea how fucked up that sounds between supposedly friendly nations? you really want to lose all international business, all international relevance as being a hub for conferences?
that's why UN is in the USA among other things. of course it can also be easily argued that what the NSA is doing isn't in the best interest of USA government, it's becoming increasingly easily to argue that USA government isn't doing things in the interest of USA government or even USA.
that being an NSA critic has turned into being the same as having a communist party membership in the '50's is quite telling of how your nsa-stasi is running and ruining your country. their gathering for intelligence is increasingly aimed at just keeping their agency going. welfare? "fuck that, as long as we can keep tabs on who is complaining about lack of welfare".
and now you just bomb people with dissident opinion even if they don't enter USA - along with whoever has to associate themselves with people having those opinions. go sit in the corner in shame.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Yeah, it's really horrible that he doesn't want his own country spied on.
A real bad actor, this guy.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Sorry, but barring Trojans from entering your systems is just basic computer security.
In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
Yeah... During the last administration, dubya's critics and political opponents (Up to and including Ted Kennedy, for example.) just happened to mysteriously and "accidentally" find themselves accused of being terrorists and placed on the no-fly list.
Yup. No abuse of power or civil liberties there. Nosirrre bob.
Imagine all the people...
there is no right to enter the USA unless you are a citizen
That's factually wrong - "resident aliens" to use the US governments description have a right to enter the US. This was the only reason I got a green card when living in the US because my job required travel to academic conferences and after one incident where I was almost denied entry with my J-1 visa simply because I was married to an American we applied for a green card because then it was impossible for them to refuse me entry and my job depended on being able to return.
However it also misses the point which is that your government thinks it is fine to exclude people from the US who disagree with its policies. If it is willing to do that to foreigners coming for rational academic debate how much longer do you think it will be before they find a way to silence your criticisms too?
The last time I checked US embassies principally do not dispense explanations for refusing visa applications denied for political reasons. All you get is a politely worded letter that boils down to a big fat NO.
He's German. He doesn't need a visa....
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
He is also actively working for the freedom of the US population, but I guess you consider that unamerican.
Can we PLEASE deport the NSA?
Yes, they will no doubt start spying for the highest bidder and we'll still have problems with them, but at least someone else will have to pay for it then.
Adam Habib was denied entrance in 2006.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
You still think you actually have free speech over there? Read this.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Because, in the late 1940s, it was basically the only industrial power not deeply into reconstructing their torn economy and infrastructure. Not because any other country recognized the moral supremacy of the USA's national definitions, not because the USA grants anybody guarantees to dissent.
The United Nations is juridically akin to the various embassies. It is international territory, not USA territory. It might be phisically located in Manhattan, New York, but is not because New York is (or ever was) the hippest place to talk freely about the evil bad guys.
That, and he also had an ESTA confirmation. His name should not have been on the secret no-fly list and there shouldn't be a secret no-fly list in the first place.
the esta means that he wasn't on the no-fly list. that's pretty much the point of the esta. and also to extract money from everyone visiting but that's another thing.
that he was denied after that means that he is on some other secret list. isn't it wonderful to have multiple secret lists of "unwanted" people?
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Since when does a foreign citizen who actively works AGAINST the interests of the US government allowed freedoms to enter the United States?
If he was encouraging people to make bombing attacks on US soil, or encouraging the southern states to take another crack at secession, I'd concede your point but this guy is being denied entry for exercising freedom of speech. If another country, your ally, is spying on you, surely you are well within your rights to petition your own leader to do something about it? Or perhaps you think that it would be acceptable for the UK government to deny entry to any US citizen who criticized BP over the Deepwater Horizon oil spill? This is a clear case of sore-loser syndrome.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Not a visa, but he does need to register with, and be accepted through, the visa waiver program.
Which he supposedly was, so in theory someone within the US security theatre system had approved him already.
(But then again, I've used that ETSA/visa waiver program website, and it's remarkably piss poor, you get very very little in the way of any acknowledgement or notification of what your status is under the program, and on the whole feels more like a tourist tax than anything else.)
(ESTA = Electronic System for Travel Authorization)
Once again, Obama proves he's a worse President for civil liberties than Bush ever was.
I had to Godwin this thread, but that's like saying Hitler wasn't so bad because Stalin killed millions more people. Obama, for the most part, has lost my support, but that certainly doesn't mean I wish Bush Jr. were still president. If I could choose any politician to appoint to the presidency, it would probably be Ron Wyden. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll probably be stuck voting for Rand Paul next election, despite the fact that I vehemently disagree with his economic beliefs, because civil liberties in this country have eroded so much and I don't think Wyden will be in the running (fucking Democrats will probably nominate another jackass who toes the establishment line similar to Obama).
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
"Since when does a foreign citizen who actively works AGAINST the interests of the US government allowed freedoms to enter the United States?"
Also, this is a very dangerous statement to make. Just because someone accepting this line could assume that every visitor and citizen of the US is willing to spy on another country (which in case you don't know it is illegal and punishable by the highest punishment in every country). It opens the door to preemptive deny of freedoms (which is actually the topic of discussion).
The first amendment limits the powers of the US, and makes no mention of citizens. It says Congress can't limit free speech. period. If it's not within the US jurisdiction, then the US doens't have the power at all.
Also, putting aside the specific letter of the law, free speech is considered to be an inalienable right to all men. So, you would have to claim that non-Americans aren't human in order to deny them a human right.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I would never travel to Afganistan, Iraq, North Korea, US and Iran.
...critics of the NSA from entering our country?
Me neither.
Once again, Obama proves he's a worse President for civil liberties than Bush ever was.
I'm not sure that the US believes that foreigners have civil liberties. Certainly not the Canadian that Bush had kidnapped and sent abroad for torture.
Actually, the US has always had a tendency to block people from entering the country, if the government didn't like what they had to say. These abuses didn't start with Obama (or Bush) or the NSA. Throughout most of the 20th century, it was communists and anarchists who were blocked from entering. And prominent opponents of [insert whichever war the US is engaged in at the moment. (This sort of abuse is not unique to the USA, either.)
The only way to completely prevent these abuses is to get rid of the border guards.
FTA:
"The woman told me curtly and without emotion that entry to the United States was being denied to me - without giving any reason," Trojanow told the German newspaper the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung on Tuesday.
It then later says that his co-author CLAIMS he was denied entry for his views. At no point does the article state why he was denied entry. Tying it to the NSA is the European Media trying to make a story out of nothing. It is largely an opinion piece based on very little evidence.
As for the Huffington Post article - well, it IS the Huffington Post. Whether you trust them or not is really more of where your personal views stand.
There just really is not enough information given. He was denied entry. That is all we know. Everything else is circumstancial evidence.
The people's and country's interests are always going to be against the government's interests. Recognizing that, and then having the government submit to us all, is kind of the whole point of America.
Unfortunately, we've become a nation of bad dog owners. Our dog misbehaves and doesn't submit. Cesar Milan tells us to use calm assertive energy (i.e. votes) to dominate the misbehaving dog, but we essentially don't vote. (Even when we bother to show up at the polls, we tend to check the "R" or "D" instead of any serious candidates, and we even advocate against allowing candidates onto the ballots.) And instead of that calm assertiveness, we react with excitement (TP, OWS) which doesn't accomplish anything.
We need the Government Whisperer! Come, Government Whisperer! Come train us, and rehabilitate our government.
1. Working against the interests of the US government may be working IN the interests of a lot of us. 2. Denying this guy entry to the US is revealing how weak and unsure of themselves they are. You only use police methods when you can't win the argument.
Dear AC,
Thank you for immediately hijacking the conversation away from anything useful and steering it towards partisan politics. This is, of course, by design. Still, without people like you, the plan would fail from time to time, and real change might happen. Wouldn't want that! Divide and conquer works best when there is a innate DESIRE to be divided, when the subject WANTS to fight itself rather uniting to do anything productive. We really appreciate your efforts to keep our program safe. Keep up the good work!
Reguards,
The NSA
One wonders where the Constitution specifically allows political parties to deny entrance to invited guests purely for speech reasons. Probably the same part of the Constitution that grants the government the power to search citizens' papers witbout permission as you enter.
Let these be lessons of wisdom at how quickly freedom would evaporate inside the country were it not for the Amendments. All done "for The People".
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
“When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.” - John Basil Barnhill 1914
In 1914 who could have predicted the NSA? Today it would write “When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is the NSA. America is what you get when you have both"
Western Hemisphere? Hell, the entire human race should go back to Ethiopia where they came from.
People randomly ended up on the list regardless of party affiliation. No targeted abuse of power, just a stupid program.
Precisely. The amount of personal authority given to border personnel in the U.S.A. is utterly absurd, such that even the slightest notion in the person's mind towards denying entry is sufficient grounds to bar a person for life, all in a matter of seconds, with no oversight, no due process, nor any recourse to appeals nor review. It has become a situation of "little Hitlers" at the U.S. border.
I deny that I have not avoided attaining the opposite of that which I do not want.
IF GWB was president, the Democrats would pretend to care about civil liberties, there would be some real hearings on the NSA, Nixon's healthcare plan with the liberal parts stripped out wouldn't be the law, there would be blowback for spying on the press and prosecuting whistleblowers under the Espionage Act at a rate 3x that of all other presidents since it's enactment in the early 1900s, the president might still feel the need to trick or lie his way to getting Congress to approve a war but Libya basically killed the War Powers Act ... on and on and on.
What Obama has done, is take what was considered an abusive extension/usurpation of power by the Executive branch, and made it the bipartisan consensus. So yeah, Obama is worse than GWB because instead of rolling back the abuse, he embraced it, extended it, and with the silence of his supporters and party, cemented it forever as the new normal.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Right now, the Republicans are actively working against the interests of the united states. We don't just let them stay here, but we let them vote in congress as well. In fact, they shut down the country over a law they don't like. This should be considered terrorism and a denial-of-service attack (Liberal version)
Right now, the Democrats are actively working against the interests of the united states. We don't just let them stay here, but we let them vote in congress as well. They are socializing our United States. (Conservative version)
Either way, participation in a a dialog is natural discourse and should not be grounds for non-admittance.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Oh, you mean like Castro, Ahmajinedad, and Gaddafi, right? Oops, must have been someone else.
Just another day in Paradise
I wasn't the first Godwin-er in this thread. I was only following orders.
I deny that I have not avoided attaining the opposite of that which I do not want.
If only it were the same situation. While some liberal groups were singled out for scrutiny, conservative groups received special treatment far beyond that, their applications put on hold simply because of keywords.
However, the illegal release of tax returns of a conservative group to liberal operatives was a simple mistake. The IRS employee was duped into releasing them. The release of the confidential applications was also likely clerical error.
"We are the country that hosts the damn UN."
Except Switzerland, Austria, and Kenya.
Geneva - "The United Nations Office at Geneva (UNOG) is the second largest United Nations centre after the Headquarters in New York. UNOG is housed in the Palais des Nations, an outstanding testimony to twentieth century architecture, situated in a beautiful park overlooking Lake Geneva, with a splendid view of the Alps and, on a clear day, Mont Blanc.
The League of Nations was established in 1919 following the devastation caused by the First World War. It was decided to erect a building at par with the League’s aspirations for the creation of a more stable world. The Palais was erected between 1929 and 1938 and donations from Member States have largely contributed to its interior design.
The Palais stands in the 45-hectare Ariana Park among majestic trees many of which are over 100 years old. The City of Geneva has made the park available to the United Nations for its offices for as long as the United Nations exists."
Vienna - "Along with New York, Geneva and Nairobi, Vienna is one of the four headquarters of the United Nations. The Vienna International Centre (VIC), commonly known as "UN City", was designed by Austrian architect Johann Staber and construction costs were borne by the host country. Opened on 23 August 1979, it has been rented to the United Nations for 99 years at a symbolic rate of 1 Austrian schilling (7 Euro cents) annually.
The VIC complex, which covers an area of 180,000 m, has extraterritorial status; it accommodates about 4,200 international civil servants from over 100 countries and its 14 conference rooms host an average of 2,000 conferences annually. Located at the Centre are the United Nations Office at Vienna (UNOV), the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Preparatory Commission for the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization (CTBTO PrepCom), the United Nations Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO), the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs (UNOOSA), as well as a number of smaller UN Offices and entities.
On daily guided tours, visitors can learn about the work of the United Nations and experience the Vienna International Centre's striking architecture and vibrant, cosmopolitan atmosphere. Special programmes for children and school groups are available and visitors can also book a lecture or specialized tour on the art on display at the VIC."
Nairobi - "Established in 1996, the United Nations Office in Nairobi (UNON) is the only UN Headquarters in Africa and in the global south. The United Nations compound is located in Gigiri, on the outskirts of Kenya’s capital city, Nairobi, which is said to enjoy an almost perfect climate with warm sunny days and cool evenings.
The UN presence in Kenya dates back to the 1950s when Kenya was still a colony of the United Kingdom. After Kenya gained its independence in 1963, the UN expanded its presence in the country, especially when it became host to the fledgling United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) in 1973. Originally located at Uchumi House in the Nairobi city centre, UNEP was soon moved to the Kenyatta Conference Centre in 1974, before moving to its current location in Gigiri in 1975. In 1978, United Nations Centre for Human Settlements, now known as United Nations Human Settlements Programme (UN-Habitat) also joined UNEP in Gigiri.
The Visitors’ Service in Nairobi conducts guided tours on Mondays to Fridays, year-round. Visitors are briefed on the role of the United Nations as well as the functions of its funds, programmes and specialized agencies, especially those based in Nairobi. Special briefings by representatives of various UN offices in Kenya are also offered upon request. Following the briefing, visitors enjoy a walking tour of the complex which includes stops at various symbolic gifts donated to the UN, including the 1998 Bomb-blast Memorial Garden, which pays tribute to the in
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the whole FREEDOM thing pertain to the citizens specifically?
You are wrong. Freedom is endowed by our creator, not by the US government. Therefore, everyone is inherently free, not just Americans.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
Wait, so what you're saying is that if Bush were still in office and did this then the Democrats would call him out on it, but since Obama is doing the same thing but not being called out on it by the Republicans it makes Obama worse?
That makes absolutely no fucking sense. The only real difference is that the Republicans are fucking up extra hard because they can't be bothered to oppose totalitarianism even when its their alleged opponents that are doing it!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
You have an inherent right to go where you please (without trespassing, or possibly even with) and free association. It's just that governments restrict that.
That was my point - we let ANYONE in for the UN, so why would an obscure academic concern us?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Call one generation 20 years (Historical ages of reproduction being younger than today), 20 generations gives us 20*20=400years.
Your numbers seem a little off. Even if you double the time between generations and err in the other way, it's still not even close to long enough.
Since when does a foreign citizen who actively works AGAINST the interests of the US government allowed freedoms to enter the United States?
Maybe so we don't look like hypocritical petty assholes who don't actually believe in things like freedom of speech, freedom to peacefully assemble, and freedom to voice our grievances.
The American principals that some of us were taught are that these aren't simply rights granted to citizens by the generosity of the state, but fundamental human rights and the state is specifically recognizing as such, and vowing to protect.
This isn't about left or right. Bush's administration had peaceful critics who were American citizens on no-fly lists. There has been abuse of power by the government in general.
I'm super critical of tea-party and libertarian types, but they aren't wrong about everything. They are speaking the truth when they say government is becoming too powerful and oppressive.
Anyone or anything you want, except the government.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number