Slashdot Mirror
US Adults Score Poorly On Worldwide Test
New submitter Norwell Bob sends this excerpt from an Associated Press report:
"It's long been known that America's school kids haven't measured well compared with international peers. Now, there's a new twist: Adults don't either. In math, reading and problem-solving using technology – all skills considered critical for global competitiveness and economic strength – American adults scored below the international average on a global test, according to results (PDF) released Tuesday."
This is a group of people who collectively voted 90% for Obama or Romney last election.
I was starting to suspect that most people were horribly incapable, but I guess its better elsewhere.
...that the Secretary of Education is furloughed right now, or he'd have some explaining to do!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
But the re-election of BHO pretty clearly underscores any negative remark you want to make about the U.S. electorate.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Isn't this just one of many signs of the decline of the American Empire? The American oligarchs used to look after their people back in the days when they built their empire but nowadays, the privileged grandchildren of the original oligarchs have forgotten where their wealth and power came from. And so on down the slippery slope...
Most jobs don't involve a lot of math or english these days.
.... Similar to how most companies only need a few elite coders?
More whether or not you can socially function and whether you know the basics of using a computer.
Plumbing, paving roads, being a cashier, managing people, checking meter readings, working an assembly line don't involve much math or English.
Perhaps society only needs a few people per hundred that are great at math? People don't need math skills to drive a semi-truck or make the donuts or take an order or stock a warehouse
Priest: "Universe from nothing, no laws of physics, sped up time"+ huge discrepancies. Creationism? No. Big Bang Theory
Ha! You mean to tell me that all those kids who 10-20 years ago were getting a shit education grew up to be adults that don't know shit? Say it isn't so! Next thing you'll tell me is that correlation isn't causation and there is some bigger root cause we just haven't figured out yet.
In math, reading and problem-solving using technology [...]
And why would a common man need those skills in modern USA? Cash registers do all the math for a worker; there is nothing to read and no particular reason to bother, with TV in every room; and the only problem that needs to be solved is how to pay all the bills.
Those skills are indeed essential - but only if you are innovating, inventing, doing new stuff. However how many US workers can proudly say that they do such things? The US economy is known to be a "service economy" - and those jobs are static, frozen in time, requiring no R&D.
But if you work for a startup in a significant role, chances are good that you are smart and inventive. You may even read books now and then.
Oh yeah, the Americans*, the same group that scored below average. ;-)
* Yeah, yeah, all you Central Americans, South Americans, Mexicans, Canadians, etc., etc. you know that I mean USAians when using the term "Americans".
Oddly enough, success in today's economy (or any other day's for that matter) doesn't depend very strongly on how well you perform on a multiple choice test. The U.S. has been scoring poorly relative to other countries for decades now, and continues to be the world leader in innovation and productivity. It is no coincidence that Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, etc., etc. are all American companies, or that the Internet was created in America, not to mention the personal computer, integrated circuits and transistors. Or GPS, or air travel, or (going back a bit) the light bulb and audio recording. Most of the things that make the world the way it is today come from America. And yet we keep scoring worse than the Finns on multiple choice international math tests. I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Don't assault Neanderthals. Their being "stupid brutes" is a terrible misconception.
(Through the eyes of your average American)
America - Totally Normal, just slightly lacking on education...
Japan - Weird People, Known for Sushi, Nuclear incidents and Cosplay girls
Finland - Freaks, Known for Insane Death Metal Bands and Rally drivers
Canada - Canadians, Known for not being America
Netherlands - Druggies, Known for being full of pot smokers
Australia - Weird People, Known for all being criminals and bush rangers
Sweden - More Weird People, Known for tall blonde women, word's ending in "ooorgan" and "ski", and families who shower together
Norway - Must be Weird, Known for very little... I think it snows there
Flanders-Belgium - Freaks, make chocolate and not get fat
Czech Republic - Fucking Freaks, Known for street porn and getting mugged when travelling
Slovak Republic - Nutters, just look at Slovakia on a map, it's worse than cz..
Korea - Freaks, Known for having a north and south, wait Korea? do they have electricity there yet?
BTW, I am from Australia - clearly, the more crazy and fucked up your nation is, the smarter it's population is.
I'm not signing anything
People generally forget what they've learned unless they use the knowledge within a few months or so.
You mean, Americans forget what they've learnt unless they use the knowledge within a few months or so. We are talking about the general level of education here, in math, reading, and problem-solving skills.
Americans are work-aholics relatively speaking and thus will bury their head in their here-and-now work such that distant knowledge fades quickly as the immediate situation takes over.
If the here-and-now work does not involve math, reading, or problem-solving skills, it would appear that the work that Americans do could reasonably delegated to monkeys. Or, one step up, unlearnt workers in developing countries. Of course, that's exactly where the jobs go because Americans demand far too much pay for their low-skilled work. Nobody wants to pay the premium for "made in U.S.A." and so the U.S. has assembled the largest trade deficit of any country in history.
A Just-In-Time education system may be a better approach than trying to hammer in concepts while young hoping they are hammered in deep enough to stay in. That's perhaps not a rational use of time. The 4-year university approach is obsolete, or at least needs big-time augmentation.
If you want to compete with an uneducated working class, you'll have to adapt your standards of living. That you haven't done so, shows in the trade deficit. In contrast to Americans, developing countries understand that improving their living standards requires education. A university education is still actually one of the few American products that sells reasonably well abroad (well, not all coursework that ventures to call itself "education", obviously). Of course, once the "just-in-time education" proponents have driven the American education to third-world level and below, this rather expensive product line will be eradicated from the trade balance as well.
Me fail English? That's unpossible. - Ralph Wiggum
You're conflating skills training with education.
They both teach you how to get the most out of a set of tools, but formal education concentrates on the tool that is your brain -- how to think, how to organize information, how to accommodate new ideas and facts. How to use your brain.
JIT training is commonly known as on-the-job-training, and is not a new idea. But it works best when the student is already educated.
After spending a decade as an educator, I can confidently state that very few people can apply concepts that they have just learned. However, many people will be able to apply those concepts when they revisit them. That seems to be true even if they forgot what they originally learned.
That experience leads me to believe that JIT education simply would not work in practice, even though it sounds great. The demand for a traditional education, even for jobs that didn't require an education in the past, leads me to believe that employers know that JIT education (i.e. on the job training) is a risky investment at best and that they may even see it as ineffective.
Americans are work-aholics relatively speaking
Bwahahaha, I guess you are modded insightful because it is the new funny? I actually lol-ed a little at your comment. Compared to many areas in Europe, yes, but compared to many of the better scoring nations, and especially the #1 scorer, Japan, which is well known for work-a-haulism (among other -ahaulisms), Americans definitely are not work-ahaulics.
A Just-In-Time education system may be a better approach... 4-year university approach is obsolete
It may be, but the nations that beat the US haven't thrown out the traditional approaches to education. Again, Japan, which I would think would be the poster child of "how not to teach" does exactly what you would like to correct by hammering in concepts really hard when the kids are young. So, I like your ideas but it does not really explain why Americans are falling behind here.
The curious thing about this is that the US leads the world in high technology companies in many areas.
Perhaps average adult scores don't matter that much. The distributions might be more important. Perhaps in the US there are enough really smart people to create Unix, C, SQL and many other things.
Also, for the record, I'm a non-American who has lived in the US and Europe. It's fascinating that to an outsider the US doesn't appear to have a surplus of intelligence and yet dominates in IT and many other scientific fields.
Neanderthals had larger brains than us. Your argument isn't terribly effective.
I see this as one of the many negative emergent properties of MBA bottom line thinking. You get thinking that thinks that if you keep training an employee in general ways you will end up with your employee leaving and all your training then was to the benefit of another company. Whereas if your employees are under-qualified they will be terrorized into working as hard as they can every day for slave wages.
Another effect of this short term thinking can be seen in most universities. If you invest in a top notch football coach and lavish training and whatnot on the team then you will have near instant wins that you can take to the board of directors. But if you invest in STEM and buy the physics department a pile of cool stuff then maybe, just maybe you will have one of your people win a Nobel prize 30 years from now. Some universities have realized that having really smart students and encouraging them to do cool things can result in near instant wins (Stanford, MIT) but few universities are willing to play the long game (Harvard and Yale seem to be which is funny as they churn out the short term mentality MBAs).
So if you go to a university and want to cure cancer you might have an intellectually interesting time but I am willing to bet that the waterboy for the football team is having more fun. Then on top of that you have the post school job market situation. Again the waterboy will have better job prospects in sales with his BA in sociology than a PhD in Physics ever will. But the MBA or even BA in Business will blow everyone out of the water. Even the PhD who wants the bucks is well advised to jump into something like HFT.
In the past we used terms like rocket scientist and had idols like Einstein and Feynman. But now the best we can do are a few pop culture TV scientists. There is no moon program, there is no nuclear program, there are no blackbird cool skunkworks capturing the public imagination. But there are sports stars, there are hedge-funds, and their are actors and that is about it.
Being a nerd has never been the coolest thing in the world but right now it might be at its lowest ebb.
But back to bashing MBAs. I have been to many companies when I was doing consulting. Fewer and fewer companies are allowing their employees much room for original thought. I have met truck drivers who weren't allowed to change a brake light. I have met IT people who ran a local office yet weren't allowed to deal with the tsunami of malware infecting all the machines because that was not their job. These are systems that were rigidly designed in some central office for maximum "efficiency" that are obviously total BS. You won't get a job in that central office by being an awesome IT person; but if you get an EMBA then you are suddenly VP material.
If you watch the show Undercover Boss the theme is almost always the same. The top boss is surrounded by MBAs who have completely insulated him from the rest of the company. So by going out into the trenches he discovers that the primary effect of the Managerial Accounting that is thrown at him is that the halfwits at the very bottom of the company know that it is being badly run. Yet the reports he gets indicate that things are running at nearly 100% efficiency.
So in this culture of only thinking about next weeks metrics how could someone ever think that embarking on a life long learning endevour would result in progress. Instead a culture of us vs them is created resulting in people reveling in their non-sophistication. If anything self-betterment would be a betrayal of your tribe.
Have gnu, will travel.
Americans are work-aholics relatively speaking and thus will
Stop. Please, just stop. You don't call slaves "workaholics". We aren't the smiling factory workers depicted in your imaginary propaganda world, happily clocking in unlimited overtime because we're filled with patriotic pride. We do it because we have no labor party. There are no unions. The top 1% in this country control over 40% of the wealth, and the top 10% control over 80%. We are a nation of slaves. We work, and we work, and then we drop dead. And until recently, we didn't even have health care. Arguably, we still don't -- Obamacare is such a poor substitute for true national health care I almost makes me cry. You have to pay for it; Which means it's squeezing the already failing middle class by forcing them to sign up for it. It exempts the poor, and the rich... well, they don't need it. So in the final analysis, our health care system, while a vast improvement over the previous one which suffered a total existance failure, is still just contributing to an already serious problem. It's the untold story you won't hear on Fox, or CNN, or NBC. You'll have to go somewhere like Al Jezerra or the BBC to pick up any trace of it.
You people who aren't from here act like it's all sunshine and daisies. That we ride around in tanks slurping down ginormous sodas and cheeseburgers, living it up. Everything about our culture is toxic. It will kill you, slowly. Living here is like smoking cigarettes -- it kills you one breath at a time. We're dealing with a nation of people who don't sleep enough, who are forced out of bed before the sun is up to go to work, and don't get back until it's back down again. Many of us work the weekends too, just to pay the bills. We're saddled with piles of debt, high taxes, and everything needs a credit check, even if you want to pay in cash. Our banks didn't just kill our economy -- they trigger a global, worldwide, recession. You think you felt the hurt? We were ground zero.
A Just-In-Time education system may be a better approach than trying to hammer in concepts while young hoping they are hammered in deep enough to stay in.
Your solution to severe and pervasive societal-level problems is to play buzzword bingo? Are you fucking kidding me? We don't need a "just in time" education system. We need any education system. Check out the high school graduation rates in all of our major cities -- they're falling like a rock. No Child Left Behind has become an unmitigated clusterfuck that punishes our best schools by defunding them. No, that's literally how it works, that isn't a typo. The law is written so that schools are funded based on the improvement in test scores from the previous year. Not from having high test scores and a great graduation rate -- those are signs of imminent school shutdown! We fund the worst schools because they're the easiest to bring test scores up, and we cut the best ones, because you can't improve anymore once you're in that top percentile.
The 4-year university approach is obsolete, or at least needs big-time augmentation.
It doesn't need augmentation; It was working just fine before. It needs to have all the profiteering assholes nailed to a cross and put out in the courtyards and left to be eaten by goddamned vultures to serve a warning to any rich bastard that would try to profit from the institutions that prepare our young adults for specialized work. These assholes singlehandedly killed any potential for an entire generation to escape poverty. These kids are sucking down $100,000 student loan debts. If current trends continue, they'll be in their 40s before they even make enough money to pay back the interest alone on that... let alone start getting at the principle.
No sir, no sir you are dead wrong about everything that's wrong with this country. The conservatives in this country have hated public education from day one -- that was an invent
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Read my lips. There are 30 rounds in this magazine. Problem solved.
You must be American, there are 29 rounds in the magazine, 1 in the chamber.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
One of the aspect of this test, as far as I understood, is reading comprehension. If that fails, everything else fails, because any other training -- programming included -- requires reading.
There is a surprisingly high share of adults who can not comprehend a text they read (a skill, ironically, often practized in math classes).
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
You mean, Americans forget what they've learnt unless they use the knowledge within a few months or so.
I don't know if that's what he meant, but if I were in his place, that's not what I would have meant to say. Honestly, nonsensical standardized tests show little.
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
The classical education (what you're describing) is dead. What we have now is the standardized test education. Reasons vary, depending on your level of paranoia - standardised testing is easier to quantify, the rulers don't want their workers to learn how to think, etc.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
Bwahahaha, I guess you are modded insightful because it is the new funny? I actually lol-ed a little at your comment. Compared to many areas in Europe, yes, but compared to many of the better scoring nations, and especially the #1 scorer, Japan, which is well known for work-a-haulism (among other -ahaulisms), Americans definitely are not work-ahaulics.
Actually, the average America works more hours per year than the average Japanese by about ~40 hours. The times vary from year to year. Last year (2012) it was 45 hours, but in 2011, it was over 60. Go see for yourself:
http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
As for education, I do have to agree with you for education up to and including high school education. The current system in the USA is completely broken, which isn't surprising as it was designed in the 1800's, not the 21st century. It is still based on concepts and criteria to produce factory line workers and farmers, not critical thinkers, engineers, inventors, entrepreneurs, or artists. Even the very concept of the "school year" itself is based on 1800's agricultural needs of the children to be home working on the farm planting/harvesting crops, which is why there exists such a thing as "summer vacation". More is lost in the 2-3 months of "summer vacation" than is taught in 2 months of classes (more for students of low income families). That actually means that in terms of education knowledge gained, our students only have 5-6 months of school while countries that do not have a 2-3 month summer vacation received 10-11 months in the same time period. It is no wonder our students do not do as well....
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Don't be under the impression I am a xenophobe because I'd count it unfortunate that the US has to hire foreigners to fill technical roles; those allowed to immigrate to this country at the moment are counteracting many of the problems I've described. It's just worrying that we cannot prepare our own citizenry for the better possible future. For some reason, people who like to throw the word "national security" around don't often see the relevance of education to the national security of a country that cannot balance its budget or understand historical precedent to world affairs that when handled badly give fodder to people who want to kill us. I'll know that tides have turned when "strong educational system" has become part of the hawk vocabulary.
I realize I've been very negative so far, so let me tell you what I'd advocate:
First of all, paying teachers more, demanding more education from them (both in pedagogical technique and their area of specialty) and lowering student to teacher ratios, especially in poorer areas, seems like a good call. Hiring social workers whose job is to engage parents and help students manage their lives outside of the classroom would be wise. There's no particularly good reason students shouldn't be working longer hours or doing more homework as long as recess is available (it's oddly been cut out of most programs). Daily math and foreign language classes as part of a broader curriculum will cultivate vital skills. We also need funding for the arts and a way to tie it to community engagement. This will, naturally, take more money that we don't particularly have, so let me propose the sure-to-be-popular curtail future benefits/entitlements and raise taxes scheme. I realize many people won't be happy, but if made to bear the burden of being cared for by people with no professional and civic skills today, I think they'd choose the former in a heartbeat. I should also emphasize that whatever fixes we make must be long term and must involve changes in parenting culture. Parents should be told that if they're there to help with homework--yes, even in math--every day, monitoring Facebook will be less necessary. I realize this is time-consuming, but until it takes precedence over other, probably also valuable things, the situation is unlikely to change.
I bring this up because Finland has been mentioned many times over the last few weeks in various regards to education. Some have pointed to it as great with education because of these scores or because the teachers are better or other things along that line. However all the speakers who say this seem to miss an important point that I had seen discussed in a Finnish magazine.
And that is the issue of television and movies in Finland are all subtitled, and never dubbed. It seems minor but it's a huge incentive to learn to read. You can not be illiterate in Finland and watch the popular television programs or movies from America. Even Baywatch is subtitled in Finnish and Swedish. Not only do you have to read you have to read at a reasonable speed to keep up. So as a student if the rest of the children are talking about going to see Iron Man 3 and you can't read very well you now have an reason to work much harder.
What was interesting in the article is that they compared Finland to Germany. Socially the two countries are reasonably similar with roughly similar types of educational systems. However German television and movies are all dubbed, which was pointed out as one possible reason for the large disparity in reading and literacy. From this current report for age 16-65 it shows Finland at number 2, with German below the average and only one step above the United States.
Anyway, I thought it was an interesting idea. At the very least I think all the effort to figure out what they're doing different in schools from our schools won't cover the whole picture. Naturally, good reading skills improve performance in other subjects like mathematics.
From the current report listed I note another interesting pattern on page 63, figure 2.1 which is a list of literacy rates (only highly literate nations, it wasn't a survey of all countries). The literacy rates are 1 to 5. The divide between level 2 and 3 was the center of the chart. For most of the countries, including the US, the percentage at level 3 is roughly the same at 40%, with only a couple countries exceeding that. The percentage of people at level 3 seems roughly the same for most countries listed. The differences seem that the higher countries have more people at the advanced literacy levels and fewer at who are below basic levels. I think Finland and Japan here may do well at low end of the scale because overall they have a relatively smaller number of immigrants and transient workers.
Tax cuts!
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
People generally forget what they've learned unless they use the knowledge within a few months or so. Americans are work-aholics relatively speaking and thus will bury their head in their here-and-now work such that distant knowledge fades quickly as the immediate situation takes over.
A Just-In-Time education system may be a better approach than trying to hammer in concepts while young hoping they are hammered in deep enough to stay in. That's perhaps not a rational use of time. The 4-year university approach is obsolete, or at least needs big-time augmentation.
Actually, the 4-year university approach is excellent. We should return to it. What is obsolete and never worked well is the job skill training that masquarades as the 4-year university approach. The purpose of college/university used to be to be educated in many subjects, to be well rounded, to be a critical thinker, etc. Today, it is to get a job.
From the very article you quote, the links between race and crime are the now discredited theories of the late 19th and early 20th century. That minority races are disproportionally represented in nearly every area of your criminal system is likely due to their similar distribution amongst the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum reinforced by racial stereotyping such as you are exhibiting.
That's right, I'm saying that you and the grand parent you are responding to are part of the problem.
It is not that you have a black race (whatever the hell that means) crime problem - you have a crime problem because you have too great a difference between the haves and have-nots, too many have-nots and an uneven distribution of 'race' across that have/have-not divide.
Yes, you could demand that 'they' lift their game and stop reacting to their poverty and discrimination by choosing to be obedient and productive members of the society that has historically exploited them and currently discriminates against them, or we could demand better behaviour of those with the resources.
So, you are correct, there are more 'blacks' arrested, more imprisoned and they are over-represented in other areas of the crime. To an extent, that's because they are black. But that's not racial or genetic. That's social and cultural. Your society and your culture. How about you start holding up your end before you start demanding that 'they' hold up theirs?
"The classical education (what you're describing) is dead," for the 99% But I can assure you that elite private schools in NY and LA DON'T focus on standardized tests
I guess the rulers do want their children to think (and take over).
This Sig does not Exist.
Even the very concept of the "school year" itself is based on 1800's agricultural needs of the children to be home working on the farm planting/harvesting crops, which is why there exists such a thing as "summer vacation".
No, the busiest times on a farm are planting in the spring and harvesting in the fall. Back when kids had lots of work to do on the family farm, that's when school breaks were. The traditional summer vacation is an early 20th century invention from the cities.
Holy shit, dude. You won. Of course, you being right kind of sucks. But goddamn, I'm gonna show this post to my girlfriend, who still sometimes thinks we should move to the states.
Then as an educator you should know what the real problem is. It breaks down to 3:
1. Localized school boards more interested in political gains than education. They are busy trying to maintain their kingdoms that they have built and trying to expand it.That leads to differing results from community to community.
2. Changes in laws such as No Child Left Behind (an Orwellian title if ever there was one) mandating that teacher retention be tied to student performance has made it necessary for self preservation for teachers to teach to the tests. Add in dwindling budgets and anything not directly related to those tests gets cut from the curriculum. Many primary schools have dropped music, art and classics from their teaching programs all together.
3. Lack of parental involvement in their children's education. This may be one of the most important reasons that education is failing in the US. With both parents needing to work just to make ends meet because the average income level has declined while costs have increased, it makes it difficult for parents to spend the proper amount of time with their kids education.
Until these issues are addressed, we will continue to see a decline in education in the US.
This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
what's more likely. people with higher melanin levels are more violent, or laws written by the majority population are biased against the minority population.
Do you really think laws against violent crime are biased against the minority population? Really?
How about an alternate explanation, people growing up in inner city poverty are more violent. Once they break the cultural cycle of violence, we see that skin color doesn't matter. It's culture, not melanin.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Seeking out contrary views is fine. Giving them extra credence simply because they are contrary isn't fine. It is at least as important to be able to determine what is hog wash as it is to seek out contrary views. The 9/11 conspiracy theories about the attack being, "an inside job" aren't reasonable and fly in the face of the evidence. The same goes for the 2000 election - if you think the outcome was predetermined ahead of time, you are mistaken. There is a tendency for the human mind to see patterns in the noise, patterns that don't really exist. Taken to extremes it leaves you believing crank theories.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
What can a mean Japanese do mathematically that a mean American can't?
Taunt the American about inferior math skills.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The 4-year university approach is obsolete is being over used / over loaded.
More jobs need skill based learning not 4+ years of theory with skill gaps.
Also some stuff should not be at university and others maybe just an 1-2 year plan.
But some job-training is not learned at an university but will work at trade schools / tech schools / Community College.
I'm gonna show this post to my girlfriend, who still sometimes thinks we should move to the states.
The experience of immigrants really depends on where they fall in the socioeconomic ladder. All of my immigrant friends are in their late 20s to mid 30s with IT careers, and are well into the top 5-10% of earners in the US. Without exception they say their life is better here than anyone they know back home.
I am sure there are plenty of immigrants you come here and fail though, and their experiences are not nearly as good. The unfortunate thing about the US is that it probably is the best place in the world if you are highly skilled, but it is much worse for the other 80+% of the population.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Are you a time traveler from before 1990?
The US did great for 200 years, inventing all kinds of things, raising our standard of living by literally 1000%, etc.
Then we traded hard work and dedication for laziness and envy. The majority of our society outright rejects as "old ideas" precisely those things that once made the country great. At the national level, we've gone from taking a few years to put a man on the moon to taking four years to pass an ANNUAL budget through just the senate. We've gone from "defeat the Soviet Union" to "emulate the French"
At the individual level, we used to be the greatest scientists in the world - whether we were born here or immigrated here, the best scientists were Americans. Now, even on a site for nerds most of us can't define the word science.
The American dream was to work hard in school, then work hard at your job so you can buy your own home. America represented economic freedom - you could own your own house and even your own business, beholdenn to no-one. Today half of us dream of punishing "those people" who live that way. We aspire to rent control, dream of moving to the city where big brother will tell us what kind of soda we can have with lunch.
You forgot to mention that we will default this month. And while I can't tell you how people will recover from it, I'm fairly certain that the future of the United States of America will no longer be "united". Old Glory is about to get a change in star count sooner than we all think.
I'm fairly certain Texas will lose. Badly. Just like the last time they tried this. As did every other state that joined the Confederacy. But by all means, if they want round two, us Northerners are only too happy to mop the floor with them. Again. We'll probably be home in time for dinner... not much has changed since the last civil war: They got shit infrastructure, industry, no natural resources, and depend on welfare from the rest of the union. As I understand it... Alabama and Tennessee are now trading insults because Alabama had the good sense to pump all its water reserves dry and is now rapidly turning into a desert wasteland of empty beer bottles and trucks up on blocks.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
If not being calm means producing articulate and informed comments of substance, in a context where most comments are as brain dead as yours, I think the country needs less calming down. You've also missed the important point, which is often lost on the psychologically stunted, that just getting what's yours, in this case a better job for oneself, doesn't mean society's problems no longer matter. Some people actually have principles and such. Some people aren't completely self-absorbed.
The crime problem exists because people CHOOSE to COMMIT CRIMES.
The fact that you think that everyone has equal access to all choices is an indication of the sort of background you come from. Absent your access to education, raised in a home environment and/or neighbourhood with less opportunities and your choices become much more limited, no matter how you capitalise them.
Your reasoning is nothing more than a lame rationalization
I have echoed the proposals of those far more expert in this matter than either of us, if you can fault their reasoning, please do so. Name calling doesn't further your argument.
an example of your own moral decay
Well, you're either a troll trying to get a rise by insulting me, or I've struck too close to home and have stung you.
could justify violent crime
I didn't attempt to justify it; I was pointing out the flaw in your attempt to explain its origin and further, suggesting that if you want it to change, then demanding that those who are less able be the ones to bear the burden of change is both unlikely to yield results and perpetuates the very discrimination that has resulted in the problem.
A disparity in wealth doesn't cause crime
Actually it does - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality#Crime. Please don't try to weasel out with a pedantic argument over 'cause'. Yes, every person has free will, is captain of their destiny etc., but when talking about culture and society it is useful and meaningful to look at trends and forces at a level other than individual.
it sure as hell does not justify crime
That's your straw man, not mine.
There is a surprisingly high share of adults who can not comprehend a text they read (a skill, ironically, often practized in math classes).
Precisely, one cannot answer the question if one cannot determine what it is asking.
Any idiot can solve 100-(20/(37-5)*100) especially if they have a calculator. But:
There are 37 seats in the hall. 5 are reserved for VIPs. Of the remaining seats 20 are filled. What percentage of the remaining seats are left.
Is a whole other ballgame.
Poor white neighborhoods have more violent crime too.
They have higher levels of drug abuse too.
You're simply trying to justify your racism. Unfortunately, the facts you cite don't support your position.
Generalisations ahead.
Joe and Jane American can't think critically. They can't form arguments. My own experience of trying to discuss politics or world affairs or just about anything with Americans tells me that conversation will inevitably come to a crashing halt at one of these two points:
"Because that's what the Bible says!"
"Go back to Berkeley, communist."
If you disagree, contradict, or attempt to educate an American on anything, the reaction is either "I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA JESUS JESUS JESUS" or "FUCK YOU AND YOUR SOCIALISM".
1. We do have a labor party: the democrats. They're just not
Please stop. You have no idea what you're talking about. First, here is the current list of Labor parties around the world. The democrats aren't on that list. Second, the democratic party platform is nothing like the labor party platform. Labor parties around the world typically prioritize issues directly relating to labor law, such as child labour, overtime pay, collective bargaining, and occupational safety. They strongly support unions and defend the right of anyone to strike. The democrats don't make any of these things a priority.
Someone has to pay for healthcare: a service rendered by these slaves you mentioned
Umm, unless 89% of the US population works in a hospital or in the medical profession, no. And most people in the medical profession are in just as bad a shape as the rest of us. The cost of putting yourself through medical school, then paying for medical malpractice insurance, leaves many in the industry only somewhat better off than people asking if you'd like fries with that. The problems I mentioned affect 90% or so of Americans. Doctors are part of that 90%.
It's not this free magic that would pour out of the ether if we'd only vote in more democrats. In fact, the costs wouldn't be so high if the government didn't [derp deleted] It's easy to spend other people's money [more derp]
Error: Tea bagger detected. Logic fail. Error. Cyclic redundancy check failure. Warning. Exception fault handling module commonsense.exe.
3. Profit motive is no better or worse than any other. [long tea bagging derp omitted]
Nice strawman. Wealth inequity is due to greed; which is a lot more accurate word to describe how 1% of Americans compulsively hoarde wealth than "profit motive", which is a more flattering term for it.
. The last thing I'd want is the UN here, 'liberating' us from our constitution or
"The guv'munt is tryin' to steal mah guns!" The Tea Bag is strong with this one. The UN hasn't "liberated" anything, and nobody said this, you warped backwater conspiracy theorist. We need humanitarian aid for our poor because our lawmakers have become about as detached from reality as you are, and it's killing people. Literally. Right now. Nobody wants your fucking gun, or "the constitution", for whatever good that's doing all the people starving to death right now in places like New Orleans and Detroit. I'm pretty sure a loaf of bread is much more in demand than some whack-ass political ideology.
7. The media does lie, that is true. Guess which party they
Both. Next stupid question?
8. Wealth inequity is an expression of nature,[bullshit rationalization omitted]
No. Greed, gluttony, and sociopathy are not in any way normal. You know what's normal? People helping each other. People breaking bread with each other. People sharing. Because at our very core, the essence of what it means to be human, is that we are social creatures. Our default is to cooperate, not compete. E Pluribus Unum is not latin for "every man for himself". People like you yammer on about the Constitution, but you got not a fucking clue amongst the lot of you about what it actually means. What our founding fathers were trying to create.
Well, let me spell it out for you: The purpose of a democracy isn't to make wealth, or a great country, or a big military. The purpose of a democracy is to make great people. We need more Einsteins, more Martin Luther Kings, more George Washingtons, more Fredrick Douglasses. We don't need more Larry Ellisons, or the Kooches and Waltons, or Ralph Murdocks, etc., etc.
And that's what you idiot teabaggers will never comprehend, and what you're a blight upon the political landscape of this country, a veritable dog shit on the lawn of human decency and compassion. Your twisted logic leads to sociopathy and neuroticism. Thank you and good day, sir.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
With the exception of public sector employees, where unionization is alive and kicking. The rest were pretty much done in with the wave of globalization that begin around 1990 and was accelerated by the Internet and vastly improved worldwide telecommunications bandwidth.
Sir, you need to get educated on the political realities of our age. "In 2010, the percentage of workers belonging to a union in the United States (or total labor union "density") was 11.4%, compared to 18.4% in Germany, 27.5% in Canada, and 70% in Finland.[1] Union membership in the private sector has fallen under 7% â" levels not seen since 1932." Source
That's not winning. That's losing. That's losing badly.
That may be, but it's not like those 1 percent are
It doesn't matter who, what, where, or when they are. The fact is, 1% controls 40% of the wealth in this country. This is not a good thing! Economies function best with high liquidity, when trade is abundant, when money trades hands quickly. This doesn't happen when a few million people are hoarding cash to the point it probably passes a clinical threshold. The end! They could be the patron saint of charity, but it doesn't change the fact that the money isn't moving. It's not helping anyone but them. And while we're on the topic of charity, common sense demanding and answer to "If they're so generous, how come everyone else is so poor" notwithstanding, survey after survey indicates the wealthy give far less to charity than the poor. Click the link, it explains one reason why that might be.
I completely disagree with that. Compared with Roman slaves, African-American slaves before the civil war, peasants who were indentured servants to feudal lords before the industrial revolution? Hell no. A slave is someone whose life is basically controlled by someone else, and who cannot escape even if they were willing to make financial sacrifices.
Yeah, small problem: While there were quite a few of those kinds of slaves, indentured servitude has historically been more prevalant, and socially acceptable. Did you know it took the United States until 2000 to outlaw it? And while it's now on the books under human trafficing laws, tens of millions of Americans are functionally indentured servants. Anyone here on a work visa; If you're fired, you gotta go home. Anyone who has ever been chased by debt collectors is well aware that they can take everything down to the clothes on your back legally for any debt, and many states allow ex parte orders to invoke police authority to confinscate any and all personal property.
We change the definitions around, you know, paint smiles on the bags over people's heads... but we're still abusing the crap out of the poor in this country. They are functional slaves. They do not have very many options, if any. It's shit minimum wage jobs, paycheck to paycheck living, and having to decide between pills and food. We treat our prisoners better than our poor in this country. At least in prison you get three square meals and basic medical care. Until a week ago, the poor didn't get medical care outside of prison. They're still going hungry.
Well, so do most of the top 1 percent you're talking about,
You know, having a 20 mil a year income means you can take regular vacations. Work short weeks. Take time off to see the kids. You know what having a 20 thou a year income means? Busting your balls 40-70 hours a week. No vacation. No sick time. Maybe seeing your family through bleary eyes as you collapse in your own bed. When I say "working to death", I assumed you'd be smart enough to realize I was talking about the quality of a person's life, not the quanti
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
America represented economic freedom - you could own your own house and even your own business, beholden to no-one. Today half of us dream of punishing "those people" who live that way.
Speaking as a non-american that's not what I as your problem. The people who enjoyed that economic freedom created brilliant innovative companies that then decided that economic freedom did not work so well for their profit margins. Worse they found that it was actually a lot easier to smother new and upcoming competition with either lawyers and court cases or by getting laws changed via lobbying than it was to out compete and innovate new companies.
As a result of that you ended up with a lot of companies who are rich from past glories and now use that to just hold everyone at bay slowing down the pace of progress and innovation to a pace they feel comfortable with. Worse you get some companies - yes banks I'm looking at you - who seem to have completely forgotten their raison d'etre (which was to stabilize and grow the economy by providing valuable financial services) and just go for profit at any cost, no matter how destructive and damaging that is to the economy they are supposed to be serving.
So is it any wonder that people are starting to question whether "those people" should live that way? It's not that people have a problem with successful people making money through clever innovations that benefit society - the problem is that there are lots of people making money for doing nothing useful (or even harmful) to society.
Beyond culture, it's hope or lack of hope. Wherever the violence is the worst, you will find that poverty or at the least lack of actual opportunity for advancement preceded it.
The lack of hope creates the culture that creates the violence and the lawlessness.
Also, the evolutions of crime rates don't follow the evolutions of the racial proportions of the population. Crime is going up or down, and the percentage of blacks isn't going up or down at the same time or even moving in the same direction most of the time. This further disproves correlation between the two, disproving causation as well.
Maybe we deserve this world ?
The No Child Left Behind became a No Adult Left Behind. YAPF - Yet another policy failure, since policies don't actually accomplish anything. You need teachers that can teach the old fashioned way to accomplish something.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Beyond culture, it's hope or lack of hope.
So close.
The statistical correlation actually points to poverty as the main cause of crime. Obviously only those crimes that the trolls accuse certain minorities of. Things like serious fraud, war crimes, treason and perjury are not so well correlated to poverty.
Those are stories told to you by the media. The part they don't tell you is that they also get a lot more vacation than in the U.S. to the point that Americans actually work more hours per year than Japanese or Korean workers.
The latter does not follow from the former. While I agree with your overall view of the US problem, you (the average american citizen) are not slaves because of how the wealth distributes across the population, but because the means to improve your own situation and do something about it have been locked away from you with your own support, through all kinds of excuses that range from patriotic cheering to misguided belief in taxation as a social equality tool, etc.
In short, you are slaves because the wealth produced by your work (and I mean that not just in the fiduciary sense of "wealth", it is so much more than mere monies and goods) is siphonned from you with all kinds of "nice" excuses, to the point where all the future wealth you *may* produce in the rest of your lifetime has already been hypothecated twice over. Banksters, politicians, lawyers, interest groups, basically anyone with the political/corporate clout to drain it has done so, decades after decades, and you've been sucked dry. Debt-slavery, not wealth inequality, has you.
Well, yes, unless you want doctors and nurses forced to work (more slavery) you'll always have to incite them somehow. Funny how they tend to demand that you help them further their own ends with some of your wealth in exchange for them furthering your own ends with some of their own... And if at any point you wish for wealthier people to help you with that, you'll have to get their agreement first. You want a more compassionate, generous and caring world ? You can't get that at gunpoint. Making people act with morality is done by example and caring and teaching around, not by passing laws and sending in the armed goons.
Maybe we deserve this world ?
Sadly, the latter are also not well correlated with prosecution unless carried out against even richer targets.
Orangutans have a larger brain than us, and all they do is spend all day swinging around in trees, eating fresh fruit and having sex while we build cities, invent gods so we can torture ourselves with guilt, and go to war over sticky black goo in the ground.
Hmm...
Actually, it sounds like a bigger brain is better.
Blank until
Biggest Problem: Culture.
As a society, the US does not value education. Sure, when asked we do. But in reality, we don't. IF we did then nothing else would matter, we'd go to public libraries and educate ourselves if the education system was failing us. But we don't. The majority of kids in the US treat School like a mandatory prison sentence.
Kids that want a good education can get the worlds best right here in the US. People send their children to the US from all over to get a High School and College Education here. sad fact is most of our society doesn't want the great resources and opportunities that are right here for them. No law, teaching method, etc. is going to change that.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
I would argue that your fix for the education system is completely backwards. Teachers, while not earning rock-star salaries, are in the top half of all earners in every state in the Union. More education for teachers wouldn't solve the problem. Having a teacher with a masters degree is like having a McDonald's employee with 8 years of culinary school training. The extra training doesn't bring anything to the table. A person only needs to be about two levels ahead in a subject to be able to effectively teach the subject. That means that to teach 2nd grade math, the teacher only needs to be competent in 4th grade math. More education isn't going to help the teacher that currently only has a 4th grade education.
Likewise, students working more hours isn't going to help them. Students are already wasting most of their time as it is. They don't need more work. They need less busy work. As a home schooling parent, I can tell you that it only takes a couple of hours a day to blaze past public schooled children's education. More money to the schools won't help them. The schools are already a black hole for money. The problem with school budgets is accountability.
I'll agree taht changes in parenting culture need to happen, but not in the way you think. Currently we live in an orphanage state. The vast majority of kids spend more waking hours in the care of the state than they do the people who are supposed to be their parents. The school has become the parent. This is encouraged by both the school and the people who are supposed to be the kids parents.
Your suggestion basically boils down to more of the same. Fixing our education system will require far more radical thinking than "more money, more time". Our public educational system is the 'Emperor's New Cloths'. No one wants to point out that the whole thing is a sham.
Here is a good example how messed up our school system is: http://news.yahoo.com/school-superintendent-gives-800k-pay-150206667.html
Notice that this guy's position normally pays over $300k a year, and the starting pay for the teachers is $41k a year. I'm not going to complain about the teacher's pay, but starting a career at $41k isn't poverty.
For instance: church attendance, shooting skills, family values, and moral re-armament level.
This would help in two ways: first it stands to reason that this would compensate our average scores (making them rise), and secondly it would give Tea-Party voters a chance to shine.
Americans definitely are workaholics, because they're consumerists. They work 60 hour weeks because they put useless junk on their credit cards and need to pay it off. They feel like a big house and the newest car is more important than their freedom, and take out huge loans for that. The median [not mean] household income is over $50K -- unless you have major uncovered health costs or a family of 10, the only reason to not cut back your hours on that income is that you're a workaholic/consumerist (or if you like your work).
If you're as desperate as you sound, take a look at yourself and what you're spending on. Take responsibility for it. There's no reason an individual can't live comfortably on $15K/yr -- I make less than that here in California and I've got a place of my own, a car, broadband, etc.
This space intentionally left blank
From this article:
Orangutans: 275–500 cc (16.8–31 cu in)
Chimpanzees: 275–500 cc (16.8–31 cu in)
Gorillas: 340–752 cc (21–45.9 cu in)
Humans: 1,000–1,900 cc (61–120 cu in)
Neanderthals: 1,200–1,900 cc (73–120 cu in)
I think you're overestimating the orangutan brain size. It gets worse if you try to correct for body size using the encephalization quotient. You then get 7.4-7.8 for humans and 1.8 or so for orangutans.
"Any idiot can solve 100-(20/(37-5)*100) especially if they have a calculator."
What are these slash and star things? How do I do parentheses on my calculator?
I selected the equation text, right clicked and went "Search Google for..." and it told me the answer - no typing or calculator needed.
I'm sorry, this story is about US Adult test scores. Could you take your derailment discussion somewhere else please.
May the Maths Be with you!
As a society, the US does not value education. Sure, when asked we do. But in reality, we don't.
So true. I recently had the opportunity to visit the UK. Do you know who's featured on their 10-pound note? Charles Darwin. And Michael Faraday on the 20. Throughout the world, people carry portraits of their nation's leading scientists everywhere they go. Here in the US, our currency features politicians. Maybe you can argue that Ben Franklin counts as a scientist, but I'm pretty sure we all know he's on that bill for his ambassadorial work (200 years ago, I might add).
That's nothing. Cats have basically enslaved vast numbers of humans to be their willing slaves, tending to their every whim and need.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
100% of the remaining seats are left. Or did you mean what percentage of the seats not filled by VIPs are empty?
It's interesting to see how many of those "get the government out of our lives" red states draw more federal funds than the blue states do: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jan/26/blog-posting/red-state-socialism-graphic-says-gop-leaning-state/
If the red states were to secede tomorrow, they'd find themselves unable to maintain their budgets without federal funding. Meanwhile, the remaining blue states would find their federal government suddenly having a lot more money (since they wouldn't have to support the "welfare red states").
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Enslaved human here. Can confirm.
However, the WHO gives the U.S. an overall ranking of 38th in terms of actual outcomes. So yeah, you get a private room with a phone and a choice of tasteless bland food, but you'll be bankrupted and you're less likely to die in 37 other countries.
I'v seen other rankings that put the U.S. in 16th place for outcomes and at only twice the price as the UK's system.