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Hillary Clinton: "We Need To Talk Sensibly About Spying"
dryriver writes "The Guardian reports: 'Hillary Clinton has called for a "sensible adult conversation", to be held in a transparent way, about the boundaries of state surveillance highlighted by the leaking of secret NSA files by the whistleblower Edward Snowden. In a boost to Nick Clegg, the British deputy prime minister, who is planning to start conversations within government about the oversight of Britain's intelligence agencies, the former US secretary of state said it would be wrong to shut down a debate. Clinton, who is seen as a frontrunner for the 2016 US presidential election, said at Chatham House in London: "This is a very important question. On the intelligence issue, we are democracies thank goodness, both the US and the UK. We need to have a sensible adult conversation about what is necessary to be done, and how to do it, in a way that is as transparent as it can be, with as much oversight and citizens' understanding as there can be."'"
"as transparent as it can be"
"with as much oversight and citizens' understanding as there can be"
Just fucking words. From the mouth of a presidential hopeful. I can't think of anything more meaningless.
"We need to talk sensibly about violating our own charter, repeatedly, then attempting to hide it all under the guise of some unending war on terror."
She was IN CHARGE OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT while this was going on...
"Let's talk about what I was doing in an adult manner... And if you vote for me in 2016... I promise not to do what I did in 2010..."
Without the surveillance programs in place, we would be vulnerable to a snuke attack from the Brits.
Do you spell bullshit with 1 L or 2? The totalitarian state will do as it pleases and have discussions to appease the masses.
Do you really think the people behind the sureillance will one day say "yea..i guess you are right we should not be doing this" to people, countries and businesses? That would be like the wall street bankers saying "yea..you are right..here is your money back"
We need to find out for sure if Israel has a nuclear weapon and implement sanctions on them until they give up their program.
Sorry to have to say that. But the UK are a Constitutional Monarchy. She didnt frequented the Geopolitical classes?
"Where I speak, you listen, and I shout you down when you try to speak your turn."
-Anyone who doesn't actually want to converse
We need to stop doing it. Period. There's nothing to talk about.
Just don't do it.
The name Hillary Clinton does not belong in the same sentence with the phrase "sensible adult conversation."
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
You people are worrying too much. Go and play out in the yard while the adults discuss and decide.
I.e. Clinton is just another politician, and we all know that politicians are scum. What comes to the top of society is the scum.
And, if elected as president in 2016, she'll be just like Obama, all "hope and change", and then, business as usual. Meet the new boss, same as the old one.
What Clinton whats is a continuation of the spying. But with transparency: we'll keep spying, but we'll tell you about it sometimes. And we'll pretend it's not really a big a deal as you think.
Now, joke time: What's the difference between the Republicunts and the Democunts? The Republicunts say "we are going to bomb you", and they do. The Democunts say "oh no, we'd never bomb you", but they do any way.
Updated version: The Republicunts: "we'll spy on you because terrorism, if you object, you're a terrorist". The Democunts: "you have nothing to fear from us spying on you, we're just after nasty bad people, you don't want those nasty bad people to get away with their evil crimes do you?". But they both spy on you. Because they are all fucking cunts who should be hung up by their necks until dead (only because they aren't worth the bullets).
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
The level of abuses - both the spying itself, subsequent known abuses of the data, and countless likely unknown abuses - has already done enough damage to the fabric of the ideal of democracy, that an open and straightforward conversation is not enough. When there are very real threats that people will be tortured to preserve government secrecy about this...
It's too late for the straightforward sensible conversation. Heads need to roll. Figuritively or literally. I stopped voting when Obama broke his 1 year GITMO pledge. I thought I would make an exception if Hillary was the only female top spot on one of the two main parties. I think this slashdot troll headline will make me give up on that. It'd be nice to see a non-male president of the U.S. But Hillary Clinton is day by day demonstrably failing to live up to the kind of standard which I would use if I could muster the belief that voting could help this in the same sensible fashion she is after. Things are *messed up*.
There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
. . . but given how hard it is for empires to break old habits, I doubt it is not realistic to expect the USA and/or GBR to stop now. It's just such a cornerstone of doing business at that level.
After all, when you drive down your street and a neighbor leaves their garage door open, you can't help but take a look, right?
"Sensible adult conversation". I can just smell the code words and duplicity. The whole subtext tautological loop of "Spying is necessary. This is the way things are so it is the way it has to be." You can tell by the approach that she is planning on defending the indefensible. The "Intelligence Community" (funny when we're they ever a community?) has a list of known crimes longer than your arm, let alone what we don't know yet. Look at every CIA toppling for resource interests or because they couldn't accept an election result. Look at all of the brutal dictators they brought to power, Pinochet. There can be no negotiation or successful regulation and reform of these monsters. They are a monster that needs to be destroyed for the good of the world.
She really means that the unwashed masses have to "educated" to shut up and accept it, which will take large amount of scare stories and perhaps some *cough* carefully engineered incidents to bring home the point that the function of government is to spy and watch over all aspects of society. For "It Takes a Village" Clinton to use the term "Adult Conversation" should fool no one.
The story, is without a single suggestion from either the British authorities or Clinton, that the spying should be reined in. Rather, everyone seems to suggest simply placed under more "political oversight" is the answer. But Politicians are the LAST people we would trust with oversight. They are the ones that got us into this mess.
And, at least in the US, the Judiciary can't be trusted either. We have judges who took oaths to defend the Constitution, approving whole sale monitoring of phone metadata of every person in the US,yet again.
Why should judges, entrusted to protect us, be above the law? Why can't they be prosecuted or sued?
Is there anyone surprised by Clinton making obscure coded statements about a spying program that she would redouble? This is a very corrupt woman, who is politically ruthless. She left her minions twisting in the wind in Egypt, and if she gains a position from which she perceives the rest of us a "her children" she will assuredly not do a single thing to remove her parental control.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
What kind of snow job (pun not intended) is this?
Hillary is not suitable any more than Kerry or Obama or McCain was. STOP repeating the media-parroted political party lines. The editors of /. are now part of the problem.
So that everyone that disagree with warrantless spying can be called childish and excluded from the conversation?
Count me in.
Here's a proposal to try on for size. All covert surveillance with any domestic component must be approved by a secret court, with the decision made not by a professional judge, but by a citizen jury in an adversarial court setting. Now clearly the jury can't just be random dudes off the street, so how do you make sure they can be trusted with government secrets? They're selected by another jury, and if they agree to serve, they consent to total surveillance for a period of time during and after their service. These juries also select a people's advocate, who acts as a defense attorney and is required to argue against whatever the state is trying to do.
Enough of this nonsense! We need these invasive spying programs so that we know what the terrorists are up to. I know you all like to live in a world of fantasy, where privacy and freedom are paramount, but this is the real world. When things like terrorism are on the table, it's time to put away the kids toys and talk like serious, mannered adults. A world where the government does not watch over our every move is unthinkable and completely unrealistic.
-- cold fjord
What is with you morons? Enough of this "privacy" talk; our very lives are at stake! How can you really expect to live in a world where the government does not know what you're doing? The government cannot possibly protect us from terrorism, or even revolution, if they do not see everything we do. Fortunately, it's only a matter of time until they can read our thoughts.
-- cold fjord
Stop! No more privacy! Privacy is a tool used by freedom fighters! Do you know what freedom fighters do? They fight against freedom! They're fuckin' terrorists! Get 'em boys!
-- cold fjord
The constitution is an enemy of the state, and should be treated like one.
-- cold fjord
Why do we listen to politicians? We can see the puppet strings as clear as day.
Simple rule: friends do not spy on each other.
I mean seriously. Just stop. It's that simple. Free country? Life? Liberty? Constitution? Remember all that stuff?
Mike @ The Geek Pub. Let's Make Stuff!
The world is not a perfect place. The West does need spies and it does need an infrastructure to support them and gather intelligence.
However, we should remember who we actually need to be spying on. Nation states, failed states, and yes terrorist training camps and what not.
What we should not be engaging in is dragnet surveillance where everyone is entered in to some giant database. This is a really bad idea for a number of reasons.
Firstly, the databases are not really likely to be that useful. Prism didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombers. You might have every text, every phone call, every e-mail but if you can't spot the connections it doesn't help you.
Second, the massive database is a security risk in its own right. The NSA might think the Snowden leak is bad but it's child's play compared to what would happen if somebody leaks that database! You can bet your bottom dollar a shit-storm a 100% times the size would ensue. It might even threaten the agency's continued existence.
Third, the database could be hacked by a foreign governments. This in itself is a giant risk that dwarfs the one outlined in the second paragraph. China getting access to wiretaps on US businesses? Does no-one in the security community see what a giant hole they're making in the West's security?
This leads nicely to my fourth and final point. I do get the impression from the Snowden leaks that the competency of these organisations is being called in to question. It's clear they don't know what Snowden took; they don't know what he knows and what he doesn't. This is why he's catching them at so many lies. They make one statement, he leaks another document that shows them they're full of shit.
This final point is perhaps the most damning. They've built a giant system they can't audit! If they don't know what he took when he's just a fairly junior contractor, we have to assume other nation states have thoroughly penetrated the system and already stolen Western secrets!
They're clearly not competent enough to run such a system and it should be shut down on grounds of national security.
(At least the article didn't quote her saying more, but maybe she did ...)
She's not asking, 'is this spying worth the loss of liberty and should we continue?', she's just saying we should take steps to make people more comfortable with it.
The serious conversation needs to be about the trade-off: People lose privacy, and eventually someone, even if not Obama or Hillary Clinton, will abuse the power to suppress political opposition and for other selfish purposes. Are the security gains worth all that harm? One consideration is that governments maintained security for thousands of years before they could spy so easily on everyone.
Security is important and I think we need to find a balance, not simplistic, all or nothing conclusions.
Just say "No" to spying, and then let's talk sensibly about drugs.
For the first 36 years of my life I lived in the USSR. It was un-free country, but many of us valued freedom and learned to love it more than the state religion - "Communism" that the government preached. When Bush started his war in Iraq as a retaliation to the 9/11, I noticed that with Patriot Act, "security" in the airports this country started to grow more and more similar to the failed state - Soviet Union. Some features that I believed to be unique trademarks of the totalitarian states sneaked in the everyday life of Americans. There was a government slogan in the USSR - "to catch up with and pass the USA", but now it seems that the USA is trying to catch up with the KGB-ish nature of the USSR. It is sad for me to see that many born-Americans believe that Freedom is given to them by God, by their brave predecessors or just by the Land they are born on. Freedom has to be fought for by every generation all over again, citizens have to prove they deserve it.
I would never vote for Republicans - for me they share much more with Soviets than just the red color, but when Obama (whom I voted for) calls Snowden a "traitor" (instead of a hero), I'm thinking that Putin in his place would do exactly the same. Putin, who's main enemies are Russian citizens.
Snowden forced the "national debate" upon the country that the administration claimed it wanted, they should be thanking him if they truly wanted an open conversation about the government's massive abuses of power and consistent flouting of the law.
And hillary is one to speak, it must be nice to claim full responsibility for the deaths of your employees while also having to suffer no personal repercussions for it. No, this definitely isn't posturing and damage control from hillary "what difference does it make" clinton.
Is it just me, or is "sensible adult conversation" rather condescending? Why is it that when a whistle blower identifies where the law has been violated, rather than a immediate and far reaching criminal investigation to identify and punish those responsible for breaking the law we see excuses and calls for "sensible adult conversation". There is no need for a negotiation. If I were to spy in this manner there would be no discussion; I would be prosecuted, imprisoned and possibly killed.
National Security is a weak cover for the abuse of power and gross violations of the highest law of the land. How can senior people get away with lying to Congress and not get thrown in jail for life? What does it say when people can lie like this, break the highest law, and face no consequences? No. Instead the whistle blowers are facing life in prison.
I didn't believe all the campaign promises of Obama, but to actually be worse than Bush takes some doing. The US is stuffed. Your 'democracy' was sacrificed many years ago; welcome to the Police State. What other country has tortured people for more than ten years - and now can only keep people alive - people who have not been charged much less given a trial - through forced feeding. The US is a grotesque parody of what it once stood for.
I'm voting for the politician which credibly pledges to make it the truth.
When you work against your own people by sabotaging standards causing systems to be more vulnerable to attack, wholesale spy on your own people without merit and then slap them in the face by lies before congress and invocation of nonsensical distinctions between collection and use on balance replacing NSA or substantial restructuring seems prudent and necessary.
Having an adult conversation about the need to spy (or facilitate said spying by reciprocal agreements with foreign nations) on your own citizens is *NOT* up for debate.
The only sensible talk about illegal and unconstitutional surveillance: a conversation that admits that it's wrong and demands it stop.
of course it needs to be an adult conversation. Children shouldn't be exposed to language strong enough to properly convey just how deeply th NSA and co. have betrayed the public trust.
Now, since it isn't sensible to talk to the frightened children in the government as if they are adults, here goes: "Calm down now, there are no terrorists under the bed. See? I know there are scary bad people out there but there aren't nearly as many as the news wants us to think there are. The fact is the people on this street are just regular people like us. No more watching the neighbors with the binoculars. We can leave the nightlight on if you like, but it's time to go to sleep like a big girl.
There.
She's just planting the premise that mass state survellance is sensible, that's all. Anyone with any concerns about it is over-reacting hysterically and and being childishly unreasonable. So, It just *sounds* condescending. ;-)
Yes, them jews have been blowing up shit all over the US. We need to watch them close.
I would've moderated this funny 3 months ago, but I recently found out there's a very violent (as in, yes, "blowing up shit") Jewish extremist group in the US. The name escapes me. They weren't the only group I'd never heard of.
Domestic terror groups are our dirty little secret, apparently - at least the ones who aren't skinheads or ultralibertarian gun nuts.
Please help metamoderate.
She will soon be interpreted by her base of drones as wanting to do away with all intelligence services and this will get her the support of the far left. Of course even if she IS a candidate in 3 years - 4 years completely out of government - it's a lie and she'll pull an Obama not do any of those things she was perceived to promise and laugh her way through her first term.
Come back if/when you are elected.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
This from the same person who decried "the unconscionable profits of drug companies"...which have saved hundreds of millions of lives over the past 80 years.
It's almost as if...as if...as if she's a politician pandering to concerns of the moment to boost her power outlook.
Wait. WAIT! I DON'T THINK SHE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO DOES THIS!!!
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I don't believe anything these people say and neither should you. They are all criminals and they all lie.
This is her initial attempt to try to take an issue that is currently in the spot light and convince voters she "cares". Remember bambam? Hope and change?
Incoming presidential bid.
Clinton, who is seen as a frontrunner for the 2016 US presidential election, said at Chatham House in London: "This is a very important question. On the intelligence issue, we are democracies thank goodness, both the US and the UK.
Huh, a democracy, eh? Mind showing me the public vote where consent to the spying program was established? Oh there isn't one? You professional liars just love to trot out "we're a democracy" to shift the blame. Fuck you. It's a Republic. A Democratic Republic. Anyone who's held office while this shit has been going on let it happen. We need to fire congress -- They let the NSA lie to them, knowing full well that shit was a lie. The secret courts even ruled the NSA actions as a violation of the constitution. That means the Armed forces should be storming the NSA server rooms and shutting them down because they swore to protect the Constitution. Game over. We can't trust you. If a you found out a spy was a double agent you wouldn't let them go right back to working for you. Get the fuck out of our government. We're Americans. We can and have fought off forces greater than ours who wished to snuff us out. We didn't need an Orwellian spying agency to do it either. Now we're one of the greatest countries around, and you're saying we have to "Talk Sensibly About Spying"?! Yeah! We do! The sensible thing is to route that shit out. The Flu kills more folks in a year than multiple 9/11's. I'm more scared of my bathtub than a damn terrorist. Cars kill hundreds times more folks every year than 9/11. The sensible thing to do would be to stop wasting our money on shit we don't want, if this were "democracy". Fucking moronic liars. What she means is: "We need to engage full damage control, STAT!" Bite me bitch, you're fired.
Seriously - you must not. The abuses we've seen (which are, I should point out, minor in the grand scheme of 7 billion people going about their daily lives) are a known flaw in an imperfect system of multiple tribes of people sharing the same country/continent/planet. The conditions have existed since there were humans to fight one another.
I would ask that you propose an alternate system which provides a similar level of intelligence and allows proactive resolution to potential conflicts *before* suggesting we scrap the system entirely. Because to go without a system would be the ultimate in foolishness.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Hillary Clinton: "We Need To Talk Sensibly About Spying"
Somebody stick a sock in this puppet's mouth.
The best everyone can do is simply ignore anything she has to say; keep her out of any political discourse. I've had my fill of Hillary. The Nation dodged a bullet when it was becoming uncomfortably clear she might become president in 2008. Now I get to relive the horror a second time.
I am not sure the Nation can take so many, repeated leadership blows. We are on the ropes as it is.
-- Posted from my parent's basement
"I've got a lot of really evil stuff that I've done in my past, and don't want anyone spying on me during the next election." - Hilary Clinton
The public in general is rather ambivalent about this subject. On the one hand, they expect personal privacy to be protected and the govenment to be up-front, honest and transparent on spying, yet at the same time people expect and even want a secret CIA, MI6, "CURE" or "Omega Sector" out there doing whatever needs to be done (legal, illegal, dirty, whatever). We collectively want somebody out there spying on stuff and taking care of the dirty work, but we don't want to know about it, and bizarrely, when we do find out about it we feign outrage.
It is a classic Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? "Who watches the watchmen?" I think it is foolish to think this is a solvable problem. It isn't, it is just a condition that must me managed forever. The watchmen need a certain amount of power an authority to function. From time to time they will exceed their authority or use their proper authority for ill purposes. The pendulum will swing and they will be deprived of power and then be hampered in their ability to function. Something bad will happen and they will be re-empowered. The best we can do is to limit the distance of the swings.
By adult I assume that she means to demean all those who are calling for the rational elimination of this abomination along with the criminal prosicution of every one of the evil doers in this situation.
This is ripe coming from a woman who spends at least half of every day figuring out how to control all information relating to her family and misplaced hope of being the next president.
"There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people."
-- Commander William Adama - Battlestar Galactica
He was critical of Bush's surveillance as a candidate in 2008, then as president he greatly expanded it. Now I wish I could believe Hilary will restore accountability. But as yet she hasn't said she would and even if she did say that how can we believe her or anybody else?
Hillary Clinton is as dirty and corrupt as they come. I used to work for the Clintons, so I assert that with more inside-baseball knowledge than the average bear. Want an example? Bill Clinton is now in bed with the guy who started and funded the Vince Foster witchhunt against them. See, most humans with any scruples would not choose to do that. But gold rules.
Hillary will say whatever she needs to say to get enough sucke...er, voters, to vote for her. Then if successful she'll turn right around and dish out more of the same 'ole, same 'ole on Americans. Electing her to President is no solution at all.
Stop pretending it is.
The only solution seems to now be, given that neither the judiciary nor the legislative branches have put a stop to it, to have everyday Americans converge on DC and burn the place to the ground. Also, the Hamptons, and Newport, and Westchester, and every other gated community where DC's true masters sequester themselves.
Then we can all sit down at a new Constitutional Convention and figure out America 2.0 where crap like this can't happen again.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
'Hillary Clinton has called for a "sensible adult conversation"
Where was this sense of casual conversation when she rush voted to go to war in Iraq???? Or the fact her and Tipper Gore pushed for communist like censorship, and by all accounts still are? Lets waste time talking to idiot politicians that got there positions because her husband was president, but has no knowledge of the fu**ing job she was voted into, and really this shows the said state of citizens in this country anymore, vote for idiots, because you feel sorry for them.
Not yelling at you, just needed to vent......
Yes, you are correct. And the NSA acronym also has the same source. Maybe the correct formula is
DHS+NSA == KGB
But honestly - I'm afraid that NSA has much superior capabilities against the citizens of the country than the KGB had. With the brand new facility some 15 miles from my home in Utah.
Not now, dear. The big game is on TV.
Have gnu, will travel.
...or go home.
I thought that Ms Clinton was being fatuous, but after reading the 229 comments (so far) on this thread (almost entirely about irrelevant political BS, Obama, McCain, Monica Lewinsky, Benghazi!!!, etc.), I now see she was correct, so here goes.
There is always a tension between safety and security, but in the cold war (and before) spying was mostly a matter of spying on the Russian (or Chinese, or Nazi, or...) military / government, and there is a pretty clean distinction between most US citizens, and the military / government of foreign powers. In 1973 or 1983, there was an expectation that, if you didn't mess with such things, you wouldn't be of any interest. (Yes, I know about chaos and cointelpro, etc., but those were seen as clear abuses.) The line was clear, and seemed to be fairly well supported on all sides.
Now, the safety / security tension is much worse, as the perceived threat is not governmental, but some vague amorphous Islamic menace, and no one is inherently safe, so the system has gone into a "snarf down everything and sort it out later" mode which is incredibly dangerous and has to be stopped. How to do that, and still maintain adequate security is the issue, and yes, indeed, we do need an adult conversation about it.
By starting off with "sensible adult conversation" that frumpy power hag has both ridiculed and marginalized every other conversation.
Really, the attitude of that corrupt female is arrogance defined, and for the record "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands".
I don't see the word democracy in there any where.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
The problem is that legislators do no take our privacy seriously at all
I would very much like to point out that the problem is NOT that the legislators do not take our privacy seriously.
THE REAL PROBLEM is the legislators have TOTALLY IGNORED THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES
You can't have one of the liars running the "open discussion" and then pretend that it's really open
The situation that we have, in D.C. right now is that EVERYBODY IS A LIAR
No matter how you slice it, as long as the old cadre is in charge, (no matter if they are Republicrooks or Democrooks) all of them are as trustworthy as that "first cockroach" you have outlined above.
"Sensible adult conversation" = "If you don't accept my argument, you're just being a child".
Wake up and learn somthing...There is NO SUCH THING as reverse discrimination. There is ONLY DISCRIMINATION, whether race, color, religion, or sex.
Let me guess, your next tirade will be about de-evolution...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
of the FBI files of every congress-person as one of his first acts in office. Louis Freeh (then head of the FBI, and a cousin to a co-worker of mine) agreed that the FBI and White House had committed a gross breach of privacy. (what, with all those REPUBLICAN files!)
Amazing how the Republicans in office at the time were so willing to negotiate with Bill during his terms of office, eh?
Since you allegedly graduated from an American law school, you should recognize the following text:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
What the NSA is doing is not merely a crime, it is a usurpation of powers explicitly prohibited to the government in the document that is the ENTIRE legal basis for the government's existence. If you expect the American people to put up with it, then with all due respect, fuck you with a red-hot poker, you power-grubbing geriatric cunt.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
They are the ones that swing every election to the most-photogenic, the tallest, the one they'd "most like to have a beer with" the ones they "learned all about" from a sitcom or a late-night comic, etc. That middle block you seem to prefer is the most responsible for the current state of idiocy in which the nation cannot truly go left into massive government or right into far smaller government so the mushy middle politicians continue to spend at huge levels (to satisfy the left-edge of the middle) while not raising the taxes to pay for the spending (thus satisfying the right edge of the middle). If neither the left nor the right prevail with the voters the current situation will end in a big ugly Weimar-German-style crunch when the musical chairs of debt and borrowing and currency printing collapses.
Oh, I agree that Romney was an incompetent money-man carpetbagger..... but FYI Palin is in fact hostile to the large surveillance state and although she had more experience running things than Obama had, she was NOT running for President. We ALWAYS have a choice in every election and while it's indeed sometimes necessary to choose the lesser evil, the details still matter. If you choose the person who is worse on spying and whose economic plans will trash the country but who supports your gay marriage, that's fine; it's your right as a citizen but at least be honest about it (particularly to yourself) and admit that, to you , gay marriage is more important than spying or the economy (using gay marriage as an example here, any other high-profile polarizer will do).
As for me, I'll take the tri-corn hat over the mao-suit and I'd rather have the TEA party people who desperately want smaller cheaper government than the FDR-wannabes who are desperate to put the government into not only the bedroom, but also the bathroom, the kitchen, the garage, etc. and then want to bill me for the privilege
We have always known that the NSA has been spying us as well as everyone else. Everything was just fine until the NSA started sharing this data with the domestic agencies. THAT is where the line was crossed. It is fine if the NSA watches me jacking off to ultraporn. It is NOT okay if the FBI does so.
In other words, in the name of National Defense, I am cool with whatever spying goes on. It is when that data is used to catch mobsters, drug dealers, and other normal typical crime that it becomes a problem.
If you want to catch a State actor planting a nuclear device in New York city, fine. If you want to catch a pedophile or murderer, fuck off. I would rather a thousand people die from random murder than to give up the fourth and fifth amendments.
Now that YOU have pushed it to this level, fuck it, I am not okay with ANY domestic spying at all for ANY reason. You lost the trust. You have abused it and you WILL abuse it. Fuck off.
You should have only shared national security shit with the domestic agencies.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
You can call it whatever you want, but as long as Fast and Furious Eric Holder is leading the Department of Justice as Attorney General, bullshitting the congress under oath in order to escape accountability is not going to get prosecuted.
As long as Obama is too weak to fire Holder whose moral turpitude is turning the Department of Justice into a laughing stock, the traitors and perjurers will continue to pile it on before congress and will grow increasingly audacious.
The USA is spying on the UN and European Union
The USA is spying on peaceful countries like Brazil, Belgium and the Netherlands
The USA is spying on Brazilian oil companies
The USA is spying on Airbus partners
What we see is 2 things:
1. The USA does not trust peaceful sovereign countries
2. The USA has economic motives for spying
To return to a situation of trust amongst friendly countries, this has to stop immediately and completely.
1. international sensible conversation with resulting international agreements. It is not only an US problem.
2. an immunity to E.Snowden so that he can return home and participate in the conversation.
By declaration United States is not a democracy but a republic.
The difference between a democracy and a republic is that in former every civil right and civil liberty can be indefinetely suspended by a formally elected leader whereas in latter certain inalienable rights and liberties are always recognized and upheld.
You can read all about it at http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm
And especially why we should do it to any kind of organization, entity, agency or any other kind of group that you put into place as an "oversight committee". The point is, as a former president put so eloquently, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ... umm...", well, you know how it's supposed to end.
You fooled us once. Trust is something easily lost and very hard regained. Give us a reason to trust you. So far, I do not see any.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
While the world continues to talk, discuss, form committees, take votes, and struggle to come up with a resolution, data centers continue to fill and the right to privacy continues to be rescinded. Keep them talking as long as we can and the public will eventually forget. The result is nothing will be done, ever.
I recognize the words "sensible" and "adult conversation: from being a kid. The first line of that conversation is "well you need to understand how this all works" in a condescending tone. The adult then explains why something the kid doesn't like (and has a legitimate reason to dislike) is necessary, and part of being an adult is dealing with necessary things you don't like. The implication being that continued belief in it being ridiculous is childish.
She's going to say "Look guys we know you don't like us spying, but we have to for the greater good, and you just need to accept that. We're not doing it because we don't like you...it's because we care about you SO much."
... we need to address the blasphemy of secret courts. This is the greater stain on the legacy of the Founding Fathers.
The Presidency I mean. Obama even won a Nobel just promising stuff he never did and one could almost see he would never do.
It resulted in the 4th Amendment.
Every rule has more than one consequence.
Oversight isn't enough to keep these programs from being corrupted as long as the overseers are part of the system.
If there is no incentive to end systematic abuses. There are no jail terms, public shaming, etc. for the people covering up misdeeds. The overseers just turn their blind eye and we keep the system going because it keeps giving them a paycheck.
Clinton, who is seen as a frontrunner for the 2016 US presidential election, said at Chatham House in London: "This is a very important question. On the intelligence issue, we are democracies thank goodness, both the US and the UK. We need to have a sensible adult conversation about what is necessary to be done, and how to do it, in a way that is as transparent as it can be, with as much oversight and citizens' understanding as there can be."'
So the frontrunner for the 2016 US presidential election doesn't even know that the US is a republic. I think we should have a sensible adult conversation about how fucking retarded the entire country's citizenship is.
Anytime a politician says that, they really mean, "You guys talk till you are blue in the face. I'll pretend to care. Why, you ask? FYTW!"
This "ask yourself how she could have announced the death of certain people at the embassy 15 minutes before it happened" is bullshit.
I'm not him, but while we're on the subject. Some great recordings on the subject with LBJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R7v69T0528
Which also covers the other bit about Reagan. His campaign delayed the release of the hostages in Iran.
Seriously, he signed the executive order to see it closed. Congress defunded him. Why do you think that the Republicans even thought there was any possibility of defunding Obamacare, Obama's signature legislative accomplishment and most dear issue (if you knew his history)?
It's because Congress did it before with Gitmo.
Here's the Executive Order:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/closure-guantanamo-detention-facilities
Perhaps it would serve you to pay more than casual attention to the going ons of the government or at least research what the hell happened when the issue dearest to your heart hasn't gone the way you wished for instead of simply assuming one man is responsible. Fucking-a.
USA has years got advance in technology and business because of NSA. Now it's over and we see how will it be affect to the economy of USA. You can guess the result.
You heard what you wanted to hear.
Obama was figured out by the right long before he started causing chaos, and it was pointed out many times just what a favorable press he got ("crackling of power" from "the crease in trousers" type BS.) You didn't know what he stood for, because the people who you listened to and trusted to report on him didn't care what he stood for. They supported him. The only thing THEY were interested in was informing you that Romney or Palin or McCain, or whoever else is the world's biggest villian. You believed them.
The biggest problem is that the leadership in both parties right now are trying to drive the country off a cliff - one side with the pedal to the metal, and the other in a more leisurely 2nd or 3rd gear. It's when the media squeals the loudest, that we should actually pay serious attention to a candidate.
I'd be far less afraid of people who are vilified or not taken seriously like Ron Paul, Denis Kusenich, or Sarah Palin than the Bush or Obama types at this point.
Oh, she will.
Politicians will swear anything on anything if it gets them elected.
Then they will either silently ignore their promises or find excuses to justify reneging.
Dear USA government. The ONLY sensible thing to do is to say you're sorry, and stop doing it. All else is just playing hard and fast with words and nobody believes you anyway. None of you. Liars.