For Playstation 4 Owners, Bad News On USB, Bluetooth Headsets

itwbennett writes "Until now Sony has done a pretty good job of keeping future Playstation 4 owners happy. But last week they finally hit a rock when Game Informer posted an article about headset compatibility. At launch, USB headsets that work with the PS3 won't work with the PS4. Sony says that eventually there will be a system update that addresses the problem but for now, even your Sony-branded USB headset won't work. If you use a Bluetooth headset (as most PS3 owners do) the news is even worse. Bluetooth headsets will not be supported and no update is planned to address this. ITworld's Peter Smith is shedding a tear for his $250 Turtle Beach PX5 headset."

Comments

Bluetooth woes

[Moblaster]

My bluetooth won't work. My USB won't work. That's sucks. But I got first post. So I got that going for me.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[DeathToBill]

The bluetooth blues, in fact.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[oodaloop]

The First World Problem blues, more like.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the other guy's "Bluetooth blues" thing was better.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

The First World Problem blues, more like.

There's WOOSH, and then there's you, where you didn't miss the joke so much as you stepped all over it. Meanie.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[TWiTfan]

Maybe it would be easier for them to tell us what DOES work. Do they have some new headset with some sort of weird proprietary connector (hard as it is to picture Sony going with a proprietary device)?

Re:Bluetooth woes

[BitZtream]

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell, you almost seem to be serious when you act as if Sony never uses proprietary (ANYTHING) in a pathetic attempt to lock people into their crap.

You can rest assured, this is Sony making another MemoryStick and BETAMax decision.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Seumas]

The XBox 360 has a 3.5mm jack on the controller, for headsets to plug into. The PS3 did not. The PS4 is coming with a headset, but I don't think we know anything about it. However, looking at the PS4 controller, there appears to be some sort of wide proprietary jack in the same spot. Presumably, the PS4 headset has a proprietary connection type that will connect to the proprietary jack on the PS4 controller. In which case, the proprietary cheap default PS4 headset would be an option (and nothing else, since it's probably proprietary and your other headsets wouldn't work with it).

Hurrah nickle and diming people!

Re:Bluetooth woes

[skids]

The Playstation Store works. It is what they seem to put 99% of their development effort into.

(Disclaimer: The above opinion is from an angry owner of a very nice Sony-Ericsson bt headset that the PS3 won't use.)

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

And how soon will the Sony consoles go the way of those? (BETAMax did do some things better than VHS, but the memory stick was pretty meh compared to what already existed at the time it came out.)

Anyhow breaking compatability only makes the consoles of competitors more attractive. This will probably be something the new Steam console could leverage to it's advantage. (That and having strong cross-compatibility with your PC gear.)

Re:Bluetooth woes

[TeknoHog]

Bluetooth.... you saw me standing alone...

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Dishevel]

Lets all minimize first world problems. Because the third world is what is important. They drive innovation and bring up the world as a whole on their shoulders. Fuck every short sighted piece of shit that thinks their good feelings will solve the issues of the world. They are easy to spot via their use of the term "First World Problems."

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

One day they'll get it right.
The 3DO had a headphone jack with a volume knob on the controller. Also the controllers daisy-chained so there was only one cord stretched across the toomk, but I guess wireless controllers fixed that better.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[multimediavt]

Maybe it would be easier for them to tell us what DOES work. Do they have some new headset with some sort of weird proprietary connector (hard as it is to picture Sony going with a proprietary device)?

Hell, does it have an 1/8" stereo jack (NO!) or did they just throw headsets entirely under the bus? Of course, you could just use a set of headphones with your stereo attached, but that doesn't get audio in, so this is still odd for them to do given how many games use teamed audio nowadays. WTF Sony?

Re:Bluetooth woes

[unrtst]

However, looking at the PS4 controller, there appears to be some sort of wide proprietary jack in the same spot

That isn't ideal,but it's not the worst thing either. Assuming that's the case, there would probably be some power, mic, and stereo audio. If so, and adapter plug will almost certainly come out for normal headphone/mic, and it's possible that an adapter may be able to be built that'd support bluetooth and/or usb, or an alternate controller that has built in bluetooth (that'd be kinda nice, since it'd virtually remove all signal issues since you'd be so close to it).

I don't trust Sony at all, but I don't think there's much to be said until there are some more details regarding what WILL work.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[mcgrew]

Well, you got an XCP rootkit. I'm surprised they didn't just put Bluetooth and USB in and take it back out after you paid for it like with OtherOS.

Honestly, why are you people giving the criminal conspiracy named Sony your money? They've been fucking their customers over for a decade and you dweebs just say "spank me harder, Sony."

Re:Bluetooth woes

[P-niiice]

but it had 743 foot wires for the controllers so

Re:Bluetooth woes

[idontgno]

Well, it's one for the money,
Two for the show,
Three to get ready,
Now go, cat, go.

But don't you step on my bluetooth shoes.
You can do anything but lay off of my bluetooth shoes.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[mcgrew]

I wish I had mod points. What dimwit modded that insightful comment "flamebait"? Personally, I'm getting sick of the "first world problems" meme. The parent is accurate, the third world isn't going to pull itself up by its own bootstraps. It can't.

When I was in Thailand in 1974 it was primitive. Dirt roads, no municipal water (everyone had cisterns), no electricity. Thailand is now an industrialized country, thanks to foreign firms setting up manufacturing there.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[mcgrew]

Are you being sarcastic?

Of course he is, Sheldon.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[mcgrew]

Disclaimer: The above opinion is from an angry owner of a very nice Sony-Ericsson bt headset that the PS3 won't use.

"Spank me some more, Sony." Why do you keep giving those criminals your money?

Re:Bluetooth woes

[idontgno]

Really? That's a lot of faith there in an organization that hasn't done very much to merit it.

Let's indulge a little idle speculation on my part. Nothing I say from here down in this post is supported by any objective evidence; the only thing you could say is that the things I speculate on have been done in other contexts.

1. Proprietary, unlicensed connector. As far as Sony is concerned, the only things you plug into the headset connector has "Sony" stamped into it, as proof that any money spent on buying it went to Sony first and foremost. A revenue stream is a terrible thing to not capture.
2. A digital audio protocol. Also proprietary and undocumented, except to hypothetical licensees. And protected by draconic DRM, so no reverse engineering for you. After all, we gotta close that analog hole, right?
3. Aggressive treatment of homebrewing. Lawsuits aplenty. Criminization of homebrewing which runs afoul of the protected nature of the interface (because only criminals reverse engineer).

Yeah. I'm just speculating. But if you draw up a list of the companies in the world that might be inclined to this approach, Sony would absolutely be in the top two.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Belial6]

My first world problem is having to listen to people think they are being deep by dismissing problems by declaring the "First World Problems".

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Lumpy]

The DRM and restrictive user limiting features all work perfectly!

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Lumpy]

No it doesnt. it has a 2.5mm jack. A very uncommon jack that was only used for cellphones.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

3.5 to 2.5 adapters are cheap as dirt, so as long as they don't mess with the standard pin-out, it's not a problem.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[interval1066]

Dirt roads, no municipal water (everyone had cisterns), no electricity.

Thailand has come a long way, no doubt. But parts of it are still pretty funky and everyone still wants to sell you his sister for 30 baht. Its still kind of fucked up.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Kichigai Mentat]

You'd think that, but it seems like Sony is starting to come to the realization that some things need to open up a bit. Their e-readers include SD card slots, the PlayStation 3 used bluetooth headsets, and they licensed XDCAM to competing manufacturers, including Canon and JVC. Even BluRay manufacturing has expanded to include several other companies now. If Sony was going to have a proprietary headset solution, they'd have announced it by now so people can pre-order them, though this does seem a very curious blunder on their part.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

If you use a Bluetooth headset (as most PS3 owners do)

Citation needed.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Twanfox]

The third world can't pull itself up by it's own bootstraps, or won't? What made the US an immediate 'first world' nation? Was it born that way, fully industrialized and ready to go, or did it have to get going on it's own? Who helped the US to become first world, if it wasn't immediate?

The idea that somehow it takes a first world nation to give everything to a third world nation and that they can't industrialize on their own is arrogance at its finest. It isn't an easy process, sure, but it can be done if there's a will to do it. It is far easier to get it from people that have already done it, but the benefits are better if you do it yourself. Hell, we've probably had more than a few 'first world' nations that have fallen back into 'third world' status. Rome comes to mind. I'm sure they were 'first world' in their time, and they fell into disarray for a while. So, it seems like we've been able to reinvent the wheel a few times. I'm sure even if we left the third world alone, they could eventually figure it out.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Kichigai Mentat]

The XBox 360 has a 3.5mm jack on the controller, for headsets to plug into.

You mean 2.5mm. The original Xbox had one of these too, but you had to use a doodad that connected through the memory card port in the controller. Kind of like how they forced you to purchase a remote control in order to watch DVDs. Also the original headset for the 360 was designed in such a way that it utilized a connector that prevented its use with anything other than a first party (or similarly designed third party) Xbox 360 controller.

The PS3 did not.

The PS3 instead supported standard USB headsets and Bluetooth headsets which are just as prevalent (if not more so, combined) than 2.5mm headsets. Also, this is in stark contrast to the Xbox 360's wireless headset, which used a proprietary RF interface. The only time, to my knowledge, that the Xbox 360 supported a USB microphone was in Rock Band and its sequels.

Then there's the storage drives. For the PS3 it was a 2.5" SATA drive hidden behind a little door, and could be easily removed and replaced. The Xbox 360 utilized 2.5" SATA drives as well, but hidden inside a proprietary case with a proprietary connector that was only to be replaced with other Microsoft manufactured drives. The 360 S *also* used 2.5" SATA drives, but in a different casing that made it entirely incompatible with the original 360 drives (both of which are sold at an exorbitant markup versus standard SATA drives), and to transfer data between drives you had to have a proprietary cable.

Then there was the proprietary Wifi adapter for the 360, and Xbox Live, which is necessary to play games online, be involved in party chats, use the web browser, and watch videos through other services you may already be paying for (including YouTube, Hulu Plus, Netflix, and Comcast's Xfinity among many others) which went from $45 per year to $60 per year (or from $8/mo to $10/mo).

So let's not get all high and mighty about which console manufacturer is better than the other. They all do it. That's what console gaming has become. And if you don't like it, your option is to either wait for Steam Machines or build yourself a PC, because that's the alternative.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Kichigai Mentat]

And what else was using headsets at that time? 2.5mm headsets were quite common, actually. Most cell phones supported them, aside from Nokia which either changed around the pins or used their Pop-Port. It's only recently that 3.5mm headsets have become more common, with the iPhone originally driving the push towards combining the headphone and headset connectors into a single port.

If you want a really uncommon port, consider that until 2009 HTC was using a proprietary USB Mini-B-like connector for headsets on all their smartphones. And there was also the Pop-Port, which I mentioned above.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[skids]

I don't anymore; this was pretty much the only time I got spanked by Sony and otherwise I've been happy with the PS3 (fat) overall, for what I use it for. Won't be getting a PS4. There's just no point. By the time I've tapped the entertainment value of the PS3, it'll be that sweet mid-gerenation spot where PCs are kicking console ass, and I'll jump to PC then. Though some days I am tempted to jump early, especially given the abysmal lack of controller button remapping and dead zone reduction options in many console games.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[unrtst]

If this post is accurate:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4339417&cid=45133031 ...which simply links here: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://analogaddiction.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/ps4-controller-03.jpg%3Fw%3D604%26h%3D402&imgrefurl=http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/179714/ps4-it-only-does-everything-for-399/p40&h=403&w=604&sz=17&tbnid=BKnH1bQnw-W1vM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=__QVMeRlB5thbd6WBd0-p4eg4PDvE=&docid=sE8G7y1O1GNOjM&sa=X&ei=GWZdUoS3H4q0kAeamIDYCA&ved=0CD8Q9QEwBQ

Then it actually has a standard 2.5mm earphone/mic jack, very much like the xbox 360.

So, while I have no faith in Sony, I also think it's unlikely that it'll be difficult to support most headsets. They sell a lot of standard headsets too... why would they shoot themselves in the foot? And if it does need an adapter, then there's their money, and who cares what headset people use. It's all speculation at this point though.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

Because PS4 spankings are 30% sexier then Xbone spankings.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[BobMcD]

Will they ship to the US?

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

What made the US an immediate 'first world' nation? Was it born that way, fully industrialized and ready to go, or did it have to get going on it's own? Who helped the US to become first world, if it wasn't immediate?

Germany, Italy and Japan. They pretty much destroy the rest of the industrialized world. Post WWII, the US had a huge and nearly unending market for industrial goods. It was an amazing time to be an American.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Zalbik]

The First World Problem blues, more like.

How insightful!

Yes, instead of discussing how a company has made an asinine decision to not include backward compatibility in their products, let's all...uhh....do something different that will help the third-world in some vague unspecified way that your incredibly insightful post doesn't elucidate us on.

Or to put it another way:
Your problem with my first-world problems is a first-world problem. It's turtles the rest of the way down.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[HornWumpus]

The only time PCs aren't kicking consoles asses is for about a nano-second when a new console comes out.

That's going to be doubly true with this generation of consoles that are just warmed over, mid performance PCs.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[wolrahnaes]

You are correct that it's a 2.5mm jack, but it's not all that uncommon. It's also the standard headset connector on any cordless phone I've ever seen as well as a number of desktop phones. The Linksys/Cisco SPA series are the first ones off the top of my head. My FRS/GMRS radios also have the same connector.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Dahamma]

...which is nice...

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Dahamma]

What made the US an immediate 'first world' nation? Was it born that way, fully industrialized and ready to go

Yes, it was, because the term was invented in the 50's to represent wealthy capitalist democracies aligned with the US and NATO, as opposed to the Second World (Soviet Bloc countries) and the Third World (counties not aligned with either of the first two).

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Dahamma]

Actually, for whatever reason 2.5mm has been a fairly common jack ("sub-mini") on office and cordless phones for a long time, which means it's also fairly common for phone headsets (even high end non-wireless telemarketer/office headsets).

Re:Bluetooth woes

[gmhowell]

Thank you.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[drinkypoo]

The third world can't pull itself up by it's own bootstraps, or won't? What made the US an immediate 'first world' nation? Was it born that way, fully industrialized and ready to go, or did it have to get going on it's own? Who helped the US to become first world, if it wasn't immediate?

In fact, the difference is that the USA had not yet been depleted. It's well on its way now, and the dominance will come to an end.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been longer than a decade.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[mjwx]

My first world problem is having to listen to people think they are being deep by dismissing problems by declaring the "First World Problems".

However this does not apply here.

This really is a first world problem. Oh Noes, my expensive PS3 USB headset wont work on a PS4. Heavens what shall I do, we're dooooomed.

Not as if Sony doesn't have a history of dick moves like this. I feel exactly zero sympathy towards these people.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Belial6]

Yes. Yes it does.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

As a dismissal, sure, but I don't think "First World Problems" is exclusively used as a dismissal. It's mostly an ironic recongition of how amazing things are.

In this case though It didn't really contribute to the discussion either way though.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[mcgrew]

The third world can't pull itself up by it's own bootstraps, or won't? What made the US an immediate 'first world' nation?

The US was blessed with fantastic amounts of resources. Coal, wood, gold, silver, you need any kind of raw material we have it. Most of the US is prime farmland with great soil and a great climate.

And we did have help. The French helped (we'd have lost the revolution without them), hell if it hadn't been for friendly natives a whole lot more of the earlier settlers would have died. We had all sorts of raw materials that the Europeans needed. And we really weren't developed until after WWI when Europe was pretty much trashed and didn't become a superpower until all of Europe was trashed in WWII.

Look at what countries are in the third world. Not the middle east, they have oil. Look at Africa, not much there except diamonds and rare animals, and DeBeers sewed up the diamonds and the animals have been hunted to extinction ind their habitats destroyed.

If your country has no natural resources, it will remain third world until someone wants to exploit your natives.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[mcgrew]

But parts of it are still pretty funky and everyone still wants to sell you his sister for 30 baht.

When I was there, prostitution was a respected profession seen as offering a needed service. Their culture and mores were completely different from ours.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[skids]

Yup. My thoughts exactly when I bought the PS3 at the right time in the cycle. That and I wanted a system where I never had to sit down ready for a relaxing game and then end up spending the next hour mucking around with driver updates. It didn't quite deliver on that: the updates were moron-level easy with nothing to do but piss and get piss-to-be out of the fridge while they ran, but tended to be mandatory on-the-spot, whereas PC was "fiddle around with a lot of stuff, but you can put it off for a week or two."

Re:Bluetooth woes

[interval1066]

We should allow human sacrifices for those religions that allow them then, obviously.

Re:Bluetooth woes

[mcgrew]

Their laws and mores are theirs. We shouldn't allow human sacrifice, but if it's their country and culture, the most I should do is speak out. Kind of like Russian homophobia, it isn't any of my business and the most I should do is speak out against it.

Re: Bluetooth woes

[Anonymous Coward]

The US had slavery to help industrialize.

Presumably...

[barlevg]

If they're fixing the USB compatibility problem, presumably someone will make a third-party accessory that's basically just a BT dongle.

Re:Presumably...

[Sockatume]

You'd want it to be a bluetooth receiver that understood bluetooth audio, interpreted it, and then in turn emulated an ordinary USB stereo headset where it connects to the PS4.

Re:Presumably...

[skids]

Yeah I doubt Sony is going to support add-on BT busses via USB. Having just been looking for such an animal as you describe, I came up empty. Decided to go wired for now and wait for a better selection of Wireless USB kit to hit the market. The additional benefit of to that is that Certified Wireless USB uses different frequency ranges than BT, so it won't be clogging up that band, which is pretty messy as is. Also when I'm done with the headset use the wireless USB component will probably end up useful for some other task.

Re:Presumably...

[Lumpy]

Already have those. USB sound card plugged into a Bluetooth headset adapter. All done.

Re:Presumably...

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't have to, anyone can make a bluetooth to analog (or whatever sony offers), the PS4 would see the audio adaptor and wouldn't have to see bluetooth.

Re:Presumably...

[Belial6]

I don't think Sockatume wants a USB Bluetooth radio. What he wants is a USB headset that instead of being hooked into a physical speaker and a physical microphone, is hooked to the audio in on a Bluetooth transceiver. The PS4 would see a USB headset. It would not see anything Bluetooth about the adapter.

Re:Presumably...

[skids]

I understood that. Ignore my first sentence it was pasto. That's the product I was looking for, and as the above post says I could not find said product, and the alternative is to go Wireless USB to a wired USB headset. There I could find a couple products, but none with a battery powered device-side, so then I'd have about 2 pounds of stuff taped together on my lap: The excess wire from the USB earphones, the wireless-usb device-side gadget, its wall-wart, and a mini 120V/Li-FePO4 covertor pack.

I think I'll wait for either Wireless-USB-pairable headset or a Wireless USB transciever set that has integrated battery for low-current USB clients.

Re:Presumably...

[skids]

Ah, I see. Thought full USB soundcard profile devices did not work on the PS3. Another instance where the majority of people answering questions on the Internet are completely wrong. SIgh.

Re:Presumably...

[Belial6]

Fair enough.

Re:Presumably...

[wolrahnaes]

What GP is describing isn't a plain bluetooth adapter, but a device that exposes itself on USB as a standard USB Audio headset device and then speaks Bluetooth HSP and/or A2DP on the air. I'm not sure if such a thing exists currently, but it would not be rocket science to create if Sony provides a market by not supporting Bluetooth natively.

Re:Presumably...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I doubt Sony is going to support add-on BT busses via USB. Having just been looking for such an animal as you describe, I came up empty. Decided to go wired for now and wait for a better selection of Wireless USB kit to hit the market. The additional benefit of to that is that Certified Wireless USB uses different frequency ranges than BT, so it won't be clogging up that band, which is pretty messy as is. Also when I'm done with the headset use the wireless USB component will probably end up useful for some other task.

As some people spend upwards of 300 dollars on their wireless headset, I'm seeing a bunch of unhappy gamers in the near future. The Astro A50 comes with everything to connect to PS3, XBox 360, or PC. Now it apparently won't work in PS4. Will it work on XBone? No idea.

No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

When the update comes out, fine.
There likely won't be much in terms of online or multiplay at launch anyhow.

And bluetooth can still suck it.
All I've ever had was problems with bluetooth, whether it was something not supporting it, or something only partially supported, bluetooth is just terrible.

Also, anyone spending that amount of money for a fucking headset should be shot, period.
I bet he can't even say why he bought it other than things that could easily be disproved through simple tests.
B-B-B-BUT MY BRANDS. Surprised it wasn't Skullcandy too. Terrible.

They better not fudge anything else up for launch.
Or remove features again. (even if it was just the terrible Other OS feature that was slow as high hell for anything useful)
Principle shminciple, it was awful. Even for those bootToBrowser installs.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a reason to buy a set of headphones that costs $250. True 5.1 surround with 4 speakers in each cup. When you have 2 consoles sitting next to each other and are playing first person shooters together, it gets annoying trying to figure out from which TV that grenade tink just came. That and it's REALLY nice to be able to hear that guy climbing the ladder behind you so you can shoot him in the face as he begins to breach the floor. Oh yeah, another thing. Some people live in apartments and can't use a real surround system, not to mention some people like to play late at night and don't want to be dicks and disturb the other people in the house that are sleeping.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Only fools rush out and pay a premium price to be an unpaid beta tester or an early adopter gambling with the success of a technology in a market place.
The prices will come down, critical bugs will be fixed and there will be more games if people are willing to wait.

Re:No big deal for me.

[gl4ss]

too bad I only have two receptors for those 4 sounds.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

But the speakers are next to each other - how are you getting any dimensionality for your $250? I get the same thing with my 2.0 headphones that cost me a tenth of that. Turtle Beach et al are all in the same market as Beats; they sell over-amplified bass-heavy headphones for a monstrous premium.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, there are reasons to buy $250 headphones (and IIRC, that's pretty cheap for good ones.)
But we're talking about headsets (headphones and mic combined), and worse, headsets targeted at gamers. I would be surprised if they're equal to $20 Sennheisers.

Re: No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

If a car honks its horn, you can close your eyes and point in the direction it came from.

How accurately can you achieve that sensation with a single driver in each ear? A potion of your hearing is through your skull by the way.

Also, speakers can each have a different range of frequencies if you didn't know already.

Re:No big deal for me.

[omnichad]

And it takes really good software to mimic directional cues for forward and behind, even though the ear is capable of detecting it. It exists - if you ever heard the A3D demos before they were bankrupted. But it's much easier to just use 4 speakers and let your ears do it.

Re:No big deal for me.

[ArbitraryName]

Were you in some sort of terrible accident or do you not understand how human hearing works? Personally I have tens of thousands of sound receptors.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

But the speakers are next to each other - how are you getting any dimensionality for your $250? I get the same thing with my 2.0 headphones that cost me a tenth of that. Turtle Beach et al are all in the same market as Beats; they sell over-amplified bass-heavy headphones for a monstrous premium.

uhh, seriously? ok, try it this way: "But those 2 people are standing next to each other. How can you tell that they aren't the same person?"

Does what you said sound any stupider now?

Re:No big deal for me.

[multimediavt]

too bad I only have two receptors for those 4 sounds.

LMAO...love you man. Surround sound zealots make me laugh.

Re:No big deal for me.

[firex726]

Guess you never heard of binaural recordings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

Re:No big deal for me.

[mcgrew]

All I've ever had was problems with bluetooth, whether it was something not supporting it, or something only partially supported, bluetooth is just terrible.

How about some specifics? What hardware? What OS? It's worked fine for me on two Motorolas and a Kyocera moving pictures to my W7 notebook and kubuntu tower. What kinds of problems? How did that comment get modded up??

Also, anyone spending that amount of money for a fucking headset should be shot, period.

What amount of money? Some people actually use headsets for more than gaming, you know, like listening to high fidelity music with. It's their money, they earned it (or stole it), why shouldn't they be able to waste it as they see fit? You could say the same thing about high end $800 phones that won't do any more than a $125 phone will. Or high-end cars, big houses... jealous much, son?

B-B-B-BUT MY BRANDS. Surprised it wasn't Skullcandy too. Terrible.

Sorry, I have no idea what that phrase was supposed to convey, is that a young people thing or something?

Re:No big deal for me.

[Megane]

Now try that again while looking through a pinhole. Your ears have only one dimension of input. The dimensionality of sound comes from the differences between what each ear hears. More than one speaker per ear won't help, only math to change what each ear hears will help.

Re: No big deal for me.

[Lumpy]

Dead on accurate. It's called acoustic timing. I suggest you listen to a Binaurial recording with headphones on to experience this.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Lumpy]

No, but you certianly do.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

$250 is getting high for a pair of headphones, but they aren't terrible for that price. This is starting to get into looney audiophile price territory above here though.. $25 (or one tenth the cost) will most likely get you garbage headphones that would not be comfortable to wear for prolonged periods.

Re:No big deal for me.

[lgw]

Not quite true - front and back directionality come in part from the shape of the ear. Those clues can be modeled in software of course, but you'd have to do that. Mostly though people assign front and back to sounds based on their mental model of the space around them, so I'm not sure surround really adds much if you have 2 good lateral speakers. But then, many speakers are crap.

I don't have a center channel speaker on my home theater system - don't need one - but 3 cheap speakers do the job of positioning cheaper than 2 good speakers. The same may well be true of headphones, but then the surround headphones are all expensive so I doubt it.

Re:No big deal for me.

[hurfy]

OK, I can debuke that one. More than one speaker certainly is distinct. I have no idea how those fancy headphones work but my pair of vintage quadraphonic headphones (front and back speaker for each ear) most certainly do give 4 seperate channels with clear front and back. I don't know how they compare with 5.1 but if the right sound is sent to the right speaker it should work great.

Wish i could get 5.1 properly converted to 4.0 to use my stereo for sound sometimes tho.

Re: No big deal for me.

[Theaetetus]

Dead on accurate. It's called acoustic timing. I suggest you listen to a Binaurial recording with headphones on to experience this.

Headphones with how many drivers? Exactly - binaural recordings work great with just two, and don't need the 8 mentioned in the earlier post. In fact, binaural recordings work best with two ear buds so that the shape of the ear doesn't adversely affect the recording.

You're right that timing is how we localize sounds (plus amplitude - the interaural amplitude difference or IAD is used for lower frequency sounds with wavelengths approaching or greater than the size of the head, while the interaural time difference or ITD is used for high frequency sounds). But that doesn't require 4 drivers in a single headphone cup to reproduce.

Re: No big deal for me.

[Lumpy]

of course two. One on the left ear, one on the right ear.

We also localize based on experience, we do not look up for the source of a car horn honking because we know that cars cant fly.

The shape of the ear DOES color the sound a bit for front/rear spatial identification, computers have to simulate that to get the imaging correct.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Kichigai Mentat]

True 5.1 surround with 4 speakers in each cup.

Except true 5.1 surround sound involves five speakers and a subwoofer. You're two outputs short of "true" 5.1.

Re:No big deal for me.

[triffid_98]

These are headphones. You want enough drivers to cleanly output low, high and mid range sounds with good fidelity, adding more isn't going to do anything helpful.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I paid 25 bucks for a pair of zalman surround sound headphones that sound better than my friend's 200 dollar logitech ones. Don't minimize your need for expensive things. Some people think buying expensive branded plastic junk makes their penis girth increase by an order of magnitude.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Fr33z0r]

anyone spending that amount of money for a fucking headset should be shot, period.

Jesus dude, don't hold back.

I bet he can't even say why he bought it other than things that could easily be disproved through simple tests.

I can't speak for that guy, but I've got some PX5's too, and here's why I like them, feel free to disprove these points through "simple tests"

- Dual bluetooth - I can switch between voice chat and a phone call without touching my phone or interrupting my game, and I'll still be able to hear what's going on in the game while I do so, or I can fire up a custom mp3 soundtracks on the PS3 even though the console doesn't support it
- 7.1 surround sound without a mess of cables running around the room, and which I can pump up as loud as I want at any time without bothering the people around me
- works on my ps3 and my 360, no need to have two different headsets lying around
- audio profiles that actually work, you can store profiles that selectively equalise the audio, raising the volume of footsteps to the point that it feels like cheating in multiplayer
- good quality mic - better than my other 360 or PS3 headsets according to the guys I routinely play with
- voice chat volume dynamically adjusts, so the game audio never drowns it out.
- comfy as fuck

That'll probably do.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Some console games have implemented or licensed such tech, but it is pretty rare. You can also get dongles with Dolby-licensed technology that can take decode a 5.1 Dolby Digital or Dolby Prologic II signal and play it to a set of headphones using Dolby Headphone HRTF, and there are other companies with dongles that use their own or other (usually not as good) HRTFs. Companies sell "5.1" and "7.1" headphones that include the dongles and tend to be cheaper than the silly headphones with multiple drivers in the cup.

On the PC side, things are much better. Many motherboards and sound cards ship with software that can do HRTF; my motherboard manufacturer has licensed "Dolby Home Theatre," which can basically do the same thing the standalone Dolby Headphone things do. Asus licenses Dolby Headphone for their sound cards, and Creative has their own HRTF software for their sound cards. The positioning you get with Dolby Headphone really is uncanny, though the reverb effect it introduced sounds a little artificial.

Re:No big deal for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, Razer has a free (well, "charityware") program called Razer Surround that uses HRTFs and works on any hardware. The effect is maybe a little worse than Dolby Headphone's, but it's still pretty good. Anyone can get the effect, and the quality (and cost effectiveness) of a good pair of classic 1-driver-per-cup headphones is going to be miles above these silly surround headphones.

and the sheep will still buy it

[Anonymous Coward]

and spend hundreds of $$$ to play CoD or Battlefield or whatever

spending all the money pre-ordering a game system where you know next to nothing about a product. funny how these little details only come out so soon before it starts to ship

Re:and the sheep will still buy it

[Anonymous Coward]

It's adorable that you think you're not one of the "sheep" you're describing.

Re:and the sheep will still buy it

[Anonymous Coward]

what makes you think so

i'm not even touching that shit

Re:and the sheep will still buy it

[multimediavt]

and spend hundreds of $$$ to play CoD or Battlefield or whatever

spending all the money pre-ordering a game system where you know next to nothing about a product. funny how these little details only come out so soon before it starts to ship

What's funnier is the Rev B, C, D ... hardware will cost the same or less and be readily available on a shelf when I want to go buy it in February, when I get my tax return. It's not like it's limited edition or there's something special about the first ones. The days of that kind of treat I fear have ended. All you get now is barely out of BETA hardware and software for all that waiting in the cold, overnight, in a line outside a Walmart, or Best Buy, or GameStop. No thanks. I'll get the Rev B/C/D hardware a few months later once a bunch of bugs are worked out and there are more titles available. Sorry, I guess that happens when you become wiser and get burned a few times by the shiny. Be wary the hot-off-the-assembly-line shiny electronic gizmo! They bite!

none of this works, as expected.

[nimbius]

consumer capitalism basically dictates incompatibility must be built into every successive iteration of a product, to ensure customers continue buying. planned obsolescence is built into everything we own, and why for example cellphone ram is no longer expandable and the USB connector for Android phones is particularly flimsy. The Turtle Beach headset is an excellent, well made product as are many other bluetooth devices for the PS3. making something thats expensive and must regularly be replaced because it becomes incompatible, broken, obsolete or socially shunned is the secret to some of the most lucrative products and wealthy corporations in the world. Apple arguably makes very little changes to each iteration of its iPhone, but people actually reserve precious time in their lives to stand in lines for the privilege of purchasing the next one.

if you dont like planned obsolescence, please step away from the hedonic treadmill and re-evaluate the product from a more fundamental level. What does it do, how well does it do it, and how does it make me feel? it may seem offtopic but its more pertanent than ever during the holidays, an old New England saw: "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without."

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[gstoddart]

consumer capitalism basically dictates incompatibility must be built into every successive iteration of a product, to ensure customers continue buying

Until consumers start saying "fuck that" and actually stop doing that.

However I fear not enough consumers will make that choice.

I've seen nothing in next-gen consoles which makes a compelling argument for upgrading, and a lot to tell me I'd just get screwed in the process for no benefit to me.

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never had anyone I know - nor my own - Android device's USB port break. I think I have a battery pack that corroded, so it no longer makes contact, but that's just cheap manufacturing (though it's the rectangular plug end).

I've had several cheap free / $1-2 cables and adapters not quite make contact requiring me to press the cable upwards to make contact fail, but it's never been the phone end. This is, of course, how USB cables are designed - the springs are on the cable because the cable can be easily replaced. The tongue end of the phone is quite literally just a piece of plastic sticking out. It's even supported by the metal shell on both ends, so the cable never actually touches the tongue - just the springs inside the cable housing.

If you're breaking the port on any USB based phone Android or not, you're seriously putting WAY too much force into it, or you're getting garbage / adhesive inside the port.

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[somersault]

cellphone ram is no longer expandable

When was it ever?

the USB connector for Android phones is particularly flimsy

There is no "USB connector for Android phones". Some use micro-USB standard, some the mini-USB standard. A very few use proprietary connectors. It's not the connector design that is even the problem, it depends on the implementation. Some devices have USB ports that fit very snuggly and securely (for example the mini-USB ports on PS3 controllers), others are atrocious.

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[radiumsoup]

yawn.

The obvious counter to your sentiment is that any one entity can come along with a product that lasts longer and does not have some phantom "planned future incompatibility" and will generate a ton of sales, disrupting any so-called market stranglehold. Many people buy reliable, long-lasting cars based on exactly this principle - "I want it to last, and I'm willing to pay more for that." Honda did this with their more reliable cars (and cheaper, too, which REALLY upset the market), and while it took 20-30 years for the sea change in the US (bankrupting a few domestic manufacturers in the process), ALL mainstream auto manufacturers now employ similar techniques to ensure longevity of their cars. Because that's what the market wants.

What you claim as a "must" for capitalism is simply a result of making devices cheaper and more accessible to as many people as possible. Here's a hint: companies make what people want. If people want little flimsy connectors in order to make their devices smaller and lighter, manufacturers will make them, and people will buy them. If someone invents a better quality connector that doesn't give up on size or weight, people will demand that better connector - that is, unless there is no competition... but luckily for you, our good ol' consumer capitalistic system allows for a lot of competition. The fact that you believe that cellphone RAM is not expandable is due to planned obsolescence shows you have not thought about the simple relationship between the cost of making removable/upgradable RAM versus the demand for the feature. It would cost more and would make for bigger, heavier phones to allow end users to swap out RAM on their phones, and there's so little demand for that feature, someone made a tactical business decision that it wasn't in the best interest of the company to offer such a device for the mass market. It's not a big conspiracy. Look at MicroSD cards - there is a demand for removable slow storage memory, so most phones do have removable MicroSD cards for storage - again, because the market demands it.

Just because your favorite device isn't available over the counter today with all the things you want for the price you want to pay doesn't mean that capitalism requires planned obsolescence - it simply means that you're unwilling to pay what it takes to get everything you want today. Wait a little while, pay more, or go into business yourself and make it happen the way you want. With "consumer capitalism", it's your choice.

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[Anonymous Coward]

For me, every single bottom-end cheap android phone that myself or my wife have owned has ended up with a broken USB port which will not work with any cable. Not a single medium-high end phone has broken this way. It always seems that you get what you pay for with build quality.

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[Anonymous Coward]

Turtle beach is horrible, I bought a TB 150$ wireless headset for my ps3 and the extending slider piece on both sides broke and had to be taped, and it's had nonstop connection issues with the ps3, requiring 3-5 reboots each time I played multiplayer to get it to work as both a mic and speaker, replaced it with the official sony bluetooth, nowhere near as nice, but it works every time. I can't believe I'm the only one that had those problems with Turtle Beach.

I do agree with the planned obsolescence issue, it's the reason I bought ps3 acouple years after it came out and bought each game used for under 20$, with only 2 exceptions. If you aren't dumb you can get the product for 1/3-1/4 price in most cases.

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[AvitarX]

I've broken a few high end myself.

I'm somewhat at fault I assume, but USB mini seemed much more robust.

it appears a cord trip while they are charging, and (for hard drives) leaving the cord plugged in while packing are the biggest culprits to weakening them. At that point they slowly become more finicky and fail eventually.

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

nuff said ...

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[Kichigai Mentat]

Actually almost all new phones today use USB Micro-B connectors to comply with the Common External Power Supply to comply with EU standards. Apple is perhaps the highest profile exception to this, providing micro-B to Dock/Lighting adapters with their devices in Europe in order to comply.

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony does not work inside "the market". ATRAC, MiniDisc, MemoryStick. It usually takes them a decade to "get" that (a specific turd) is not accepted by "the market". Hell, if you remove the CD and the Bluray from the equasion, it has never really worked. But that's no reason not to try it again, again, again, eh, SONY...

Re:none of this works, as expected.

[radiumsoup]

Exactly. The free market produced an alternative that broke the "planned obsolescence", just as I stated. Scorekeepers, please make sure to note AC for the assist.

$250 for a headset?

[smooth wombat]

I don't want to hear anyone saying what someone else buys is unnecessary if this guy is spending that much for a headset. I don't care about the tonal values or fit or anything else. To someone looking in, that is just a waste of money to play a game.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

these sheep will buy anything to feed their delusions of grandeur to play battlefield and make pretend they aren't really fat overweight slobs sitting in front of a TV all day

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Seumas]

$250 for a headset is nothing, really. A good pair of headphones can easily run you $500 (that's considered mid-tier). A passable head*set* will run you $300-$500 and it isn't that such a headset is really good, so much as . . . it's about your only option. There are just very few options with headsets and you usually end up paying a lot more for the combination headphone/mic than you would for a high quality headphone and mic, separately.

The problem is that $250 for headsets for consoles is that you're getting a $50 headphone with a $5 mic attached and the other $195 goes toward the branding and gimmicky "I got's me a RAZR bruh!" bullshit.

Ideally, both consoles would open up to non-proprietary options and you could have a single high end set of headphones and a microphone that you already use on your stereo system, PC, podcasting, etc ... *and* use it on your consoles. Instead of having to pay through the nose for a headset just for the console that is really only marginally better than the $15 ear-mount proprietary bullshit that you can get for each console. $250 for a proprietary peripheral for one single $400 console is absurd, though.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[drinkypoo]

I think it's too much to pay, too. When I saw headsets that cost that much on the wall at Gamestop I just shook my head. But it's not that much money for someone without dependents. If it really enhances their life, I can see spending that much money. On the other hand, I can't personally see not kitbashing something myself rather than spending $250.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[xombo]

That's just MSRP. If you look online you can usually get them over 50% off retail price.

I got mine because I live in an apartment, so I wanted to have good surround sound headphones to play at night and not disturb my neighbours. Cost me about $80. They will not be compatible with the PS4 except as game audio. I'd have to have a separate device just for chat, which is not an acceptable solution when you have over the ear headphones.

I may not pick up my PS4 reservation because of this and the poor launch titles.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a Turtle Beach PX3 headset. It was total garbage and definitely not worth the money. I used it every day for about 6 months and it started falling apart. They used too much flimsy plastic in the construction. After that I got the Sony Pulse headset for the PS3 and its been working great for a year and no signs of cracks forming where the TB headset had issues. Its a bit heavy and I've had to resync the BT on it only once even though I move the BT dongle from my PC to the TV on a daily basis.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

It makes sense when there are multiple consoles next to each other being played simultaneously. It also helps keep it more quiet during late night gaming and for people that live in apartments/townhouses.

Would you spend that much on a surround system to watch movies or sports? With a price tag like $250 you're getting at least true 5.1 or 7.1 surround in your ears, which is at least 4 speakers per cup.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I bet you've never bought anything that someone wouldn't consider a waste of money.

People go out and work hard; they can buy whatever they feel like. Technically you can live in your parent's basement and never spend any money, but that wouldn't be living either.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fat overweight slobs ROFL I'm all of 120 lbs soaking wet and don't play battlefield. They're GREAT for story-driven immersion games as well. Take your gaming-uneducated trolling elsewhere.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

great, you're a teenager who thinks you matter
go back and make pretend you're an individual and be part of the herd

Re:$250 for a headset?

[BitZtream]

Yes, if you're not 'in to' what people like then you won't understand why those same people spend large sums of money on the things they are 'in to'.

I wouldn't pay $250 myself, but having worn a pair that cost about that much, I can see why people do. With noise canceling and a really comfortable fit, I can see the value to some people, even if not myself.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[somersault]

Please, tell us how much more special you are, AC. The majority of people like to "make pretend" every so often that they don't live in boring, overly protective/prescriptive western society.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[ranton]

I can't believe so many people agree with this post. We are talking about game systems that cost around $500 that are probably played on TVs that cost $500-$1000 with perhaps a dozens games costing $60 each. And you are saying that a $250 headset is excessive? I don't find sound quality very important either, but who am I to judge what others find important enough to spend their money on? A $250 expenditure on a hobby is still pretty tame compared to most. I spent close to that on just one of two tickets to the musical Wicked, even though a movie ticket would have been $15.

Spending $250 on a headset instead of perhaps $50-100 is really no different than buying a 55" TV instead of a 40" one.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

120 lbs? So you're a manlet. Life must be tough being a midget but at least there's pro-wrestling and getting tossed into bales of hay at the local pub!

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

If $250 for a headset is a problem for you, then it could be argued that the real problem is the time you're wasting playing games.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fatso got sored

Re:$250 for a headset?

[Kichigai Mentat]

I don't want to hear any of those people complaining about how pricey PC gaming is compared to console gaming either. $250 for a headset? To play a $60 game? Crimeney, I spent that much on stuff for bicycling, except the difference is that I benefit from riding my bicycle via better health and less money spent on fuel for my car.

It's a game! I wouldn't even call it a proper hobby.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[NoImNotNineVolt]

$250 for a headset is nothing, really. A good pair of headphones can easily run you $500 (that's considered mid-tier).

A good volume knob can easily run you $485.

If you spend $500 on a pair of headphones and you aren't a professional musician (or someone else that works with audio in a professional capacity), you're about as smart as the guy that buys that volume knob.

Re:$250 for a headset?

[davidhoude]

Wouldn't the headset cost the same regardless of whether you use console or pc?

What works?

[Russ1642]

If USB doesn't work and Bluetooth doesn't work then what does?

Re:What works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like plain old 3.5mm jack?

Re:What works?

[Guppy06]

HDCP

Re:What works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Earbuds from dollar store radios. That is all.

Re:What works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical Sony doings....

Re:What works?

[DeathToBill]

Er, analogue audio? HDMI? S/PDIF? TOSLINK? ADAT? SSB? VHF FM? DAB?

No idea if any of these are supported by PS4, just stunned that someone thinks USB and Bluetooth are the only possible options for audio IO.

Re:What works?

[Seumas]

Exactly. Unless the new PS4 controllers have an audio jack just like the 360 controllers did?

Re:What works?

[Russ1642]

The vast majority of headsets use either Bluetooth or plug in with USB.

Re:What works?

[DeathToBill]

Pity, it'd be nice to see DAB useful for something...

Re:What works?

[DeathToBill]

It does? Shit. I never noticed that before. ...facepalm...

Re:What works?

[Seumas]

*Console headsets*, yes.

Both are shitty solutions. When we have games that are putting out high quality 5.1 and 7.1 audio streams and sometimes even PCM, why in the fuck would they limit people to only listening to them over bluetooth or USB, which are notoriously shit for audio quality?!

Re:What works?

[robmv]

The 3.5mm jack on the controller. I am the owner of the Sony Pulse Elite headset, I bought it because it is a very good device. The feature that I like the most is that you can plug it on a USB port (dumb one, only for power) and plug a standard 3.5mm jack with stereo sound and microphone connection and the USB dongle will wireless stream it. I am not buying the PS4 on the first months, but if I could, I probably use that feature until the USB audio support is added on the promised firmware update

Re:What works?

[Seumas]

The 360 controller has a 3.5mm audio jack facing the user between the handles. It's where you plug headsets into, like the one that comes with the 360 console. I presume it would handle any headset that didn't have to be powered (ie, require an amp). I don't believe the PS3 controller has a jack, but if the PS4 controller does, that would probably be the audio solution until they get USB/bluetooth working.

However, I don't have a clue if the PS4 will have this.

Re:What works?

[gl4ss]

generally you might just want different audio to the headset and from headset back to the console.

now if it had a headphones and mic connector this wouldn't be a problem at all, fixed by a ten dollar dongle.

but if it has a bluetooth chip then why the fuck wouldn't they update it to support audio?

Re:What works?

[S.O.B.]

Er, analogue audio? HDMI? S/PDIF? TOSLINK? ADAT? SSB? VHF FM? DAB?

No idea if any of these are supported by PS4, just stunned that someone thinks USB and Bluetooth are the only possible options for audio IO.

This isn't about general audio I/O. This is about supporting headsets. As far as I know there are no headsets in existence that use the interfaces you listed.

I know it's like pissing up a rope to expect someone to RTFA but can we at least read the summary before barfing something out.

Re:What works?

[Seumas]

Where is the 3.5mm jack? I don't believe the PS3 controllers have one and the PS4 does not (according to images online). The images I've seen of the PS4 controller show that it has a weird wide jack, that looks like some sort of proprietary 8pin or something.

Re:What works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod up! This is the one ultra-important feature which Sony will always ensure works!

Re:What works?

[Russ1642]

I love it when people criticize my posts without having a clue what they're talking about. I didn't feel like dishing out a pile of hate at them as I knew someone else would come along eventually and do it for me. Thanks.

Re:What works?

[robmv]

See this image

Re:What works?

[fisted]

No. It's poor design.

Re:What works?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, back in the day I bought a 200lb expensive Sony HD television that still works great with HDCP and DVI because I thought it was the safest thing to do.
The joke is on me now that all the HDCP master keys are out and my TV will be obsolete due to my version of HDCP not being supported. Thank you MPAA.

Re:What works?

[Blaskowicz]

USB is not notoriously shit for audio quality, you have audiophile nuts spending grands on USB DACs right now - and getting ripped off, but at least it sounds good.
It has mostly replaced firewire for audio interfaces (e.g. stuff to record eight channels at 192KHz/24bit, XLR inputs etc.)
Lastly for about $100 there's the Asus Xonar U7 for instance which is probably a good enough sound card for 99% people, that gives 7.1 analog outputs (so goes your "even PCM"), headphone amp and mic input.

Re:What works?

[Blaskowicz]

It's conceivable to use the headset only for communications and have the game play on whatever speakers you're using.

Re:What works?

[reikae]

It's 2.5mm actually, which explains why I never noticed it either. I thought 3.5mm was as small as they came.

Re:What works?

[Kichigai Mentat]

Except no one uses DAB for headsets, nor analog VHF FM. I suppose you could use a modified S/PDIF or TOSLINK interface for headsets, but that would be costly and bulky. Bluetooth and USB are common, cost-effective, consumer-friendly systems.

Re:What works?

[Kichigai Mentat]

*Console headsets*, yes.

No, headsets, in general. Like the one-speaker-and-a-mic kind used by people for phones, or VoIP/Video chat services. The kinds of services where the quality coming out of Bluetooth or USB far surpasses the quality of what's coming into the device to start with.

Re:What works?

[S.O.B.]

I'm happy to lighten your load.

Re:What works?

[fisted]

To the downmodder: You must be deaf if you have never heard loud cracking/buzzing while plugging or unplugging a 3.5mm jack.
Guess where that comes from: The receptable's contacts are temporarily shorted whenver you plug or unplug live equipment.
Guess what this means: 3.5mm jack isn't even hot-pluggable
Guess what we call this: poor design.

Never buy consoles at launch.

[JustAnotherIdiot]

Shit like this is becoming more and more frequent, consoles are shipped missing key features with updates promised.
If it's not right, don't ship it. If it's not ready, don't ship it.
A company I used to work for lived by these words, if only the rest of the world did. (and if only they did too, they kinda don't anymore)

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[atomicxblue]

They're under a time crunch right now. They have to rush to finish building the consoles before those students' internship is over.

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[bazorg]

If it's not right, don't ship it. If it's not ready, don't ship it.
A company I used to work for lived by these words, if only the rest of the world did. (and if only they did too, they kinda don't anymore)

bankrupt, I presume?

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[Seumas]

Unfortunately, that doesn't fly here, because they're in a race to launch against Microsoft and they already suffered a bit of defeat the last eight years, because they launched late and their competition ate their lunch. Besides, Microsoft already demonstrated that it doesn't matter. Your hardware can literally burn itself out with an eventual failure rate of 100% (100% of launch 360s were guaranteed to eventually red-ring) and people will just give you another $500 and buy another one.

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[JustAnotherIdiot]

Nope, typical change to "CEO/Board says we're not making enough money, fire all the workers and ship anything that's even half ready"

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[compro01]

They also need it on the shelves for the holidays rush.

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you will HAVE TO connect your console to the Internet!

My buddy bought a PS3 just to play GTA5. Completely offline too. Yeah, no game updates or multiplayer, but who cares? The game works.

When you buy a PS4, you will NEED to connect to the internet for major features like USB to work... Okay, the game isn't DRM'd to shit, but the hardware is. :)

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit like this is becoming more and more frequent, consoles are shipped missing key features with updates promised.

If it's not right, don't ship it. If it's not ready, don't ship it.

A company I used to work for lived by these words, if only the rest of the world did. (and if only they did too, they kinda don't anymore)

If everyone's mantra was don't buy it until it's feature complete and bug free, forget the consoles - there wouldn't be any games to play.

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. Wait for it to come down in price. I'll buy my PS4 in a year to a year and a half, and I'll buy a couple of "greatest hits" games with it.

p.s. Call me old, but I don't want a headset so I don't care if they ever fix the headset bugs.

Re:Never buy consoles at launch.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple IP gets stolen because it just works.

I wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

What might be the reason for this?

More proprietary bullshit.

[Seumas]

The problem with all of this proprietary bullshit is that even if you're willing to spend the money, there is no option. There is only "spend nothing and get shitty solutions" and "spend a lot and get shitty solutions". Already have a $500 set of HD650s or AGK 712s for your headset and a sweet separated mic for communication? Sorry, can't use that on your consoles! Nope, instead, you have to spend $400 for our shitty TurtleBeach or Razr branded pieces of shit that will work only on this one console and don't have the sound or mic quality to justify the investment. This is where both consoles fail and one of them could make a really solid mark for themselves by bucking the trend and just allowing bluetooth isn't a solution; unless you give no shits for quality or battery life and want wireless).

But they won't.

Re:More proprietary bullshit.

[Anonymous Coward]

... or get a $5 adapter.

Huh?

[rsilvergun]

Isn't this a feature pretty much taken for granted? My $80 Hauwei Ascend II has bluetooth for pete's sake... It's a $10 dollar chip (maybe $2.50 at the bulk Sony buys)... I get that margin's are slim but come on...

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck, the damn thing probably _has_ Bluetooth capabilities, they just didn't want to bother writing the software to integrate support for it in the PS4 OS..

Re:Huh?

[aiadot]

It's a software issue, the hardware is there. As is mentioned in the article, there will be a patch for that. Sony has two options:
1) Delay the PS4 release and brush up the software, until it's "complete". But lose hype and marketshare to the WiiU and XBone (and maybe even Steam Machines if they delay too much.)
2) Release now and patch the non-essential software holes as time goes, as their hype/momentum is at maximum.

One the biggest issues with the PS3 for most part of it's life time was the fact sony delayed it to much. The PS3 finally surpassed the 360 in sales only last year. Because of that, nowadays, in the game console world, as long as the device can play games, the companies are trying to release as soon as possible. The 3DS, for example, didn't have video recording/playback capabilities nor access to Nintendo e-shop for the first 6 months or so, if I'm not mistaken.

Isn't this a feature pretty much taken for granted?

Now, a bit off-topic, but now that you mention that. I'm pretty sure the Xbox 360(and probably the new XBone) doesn't let you do that. The only compatible wireless headset is some proprietary and low quality headset by MS(maybe they have a proprietary high-end version, but I'm not sure). AFAIK, the only way to use a wireless headset with the xbox is if you connect the wired sound output to an external transmitter.

Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[ChaseTec]

Not supporting Bluetooth headsets for chat isn't about backwards compatibility considering bluetooth is the standard for wireless headsets designed for chat. If this really is not going to be addressed then either they are being lazy and not developing a full bluetooth stack or they are attempting to force people into buying an expensive proprietary Sony chat solution. As someone that uses a pair of Motorola S10-HDs for chat this is the push I need to completely switch to Steam.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[Nerdfest]

They're not being lazy, they're being Sony. If you expect anything different you haven't been paying attention.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[gl4ss]

yeah it's not like bluetooth was invented at what is now part of sony.................. oh wait it was.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[skids]

bluetooth is the standards for wireless headsets

FTFY. There are multiple audio protocols in BT, e.g. mono versus A2DP and on top of A2DP a bunch of optional codecs. Also there is Certified Wireless USB, if you can find it.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[minstrelmike]

Exactly. Laziness is not the Sony way. Lying and taking as much money as possible from first adopters is the Sony (capitalist) way.
Remember their DRM ROOTKIT for crying out loud?
Or how about the playstation that let you load Linux? (The US military built a cheap supercomputer out of hundreds of playstations).

The only reason Sony is still in the game business is because their only real competitor is Microsoft (The wii is for families, not gamers).

Sony is in business because they are like the teams in the NFL's NFC East division.
The division leader isn't a winning team; it's just like Sony--the most competent loser in that marketplace.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[Lumpy]

Actuallyt hey could be going ahead with spatial chat. which give you your buddy's voice spatially correct in your ears to where he is in the game. Something that would significantly increase immersion.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[lgw]

Sony was a different company once. Last millennia they made good gear, and were really innovative. That's not today's Sony.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

I love how every negative comment mentions the OtherOS removal (which, while technically impacting every PS3 out there, *actually* affected maybe 2% of all PS3 owners) and a DRM scandal from over a decade ago. Got anything else? I think Apple's sin list is a mile longer, how about quoting from there?

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[AC-x]

Are you sure? I always remember them using proprietary formats wherever they could, remember minidisc?

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[lgw]

There's nothing wrong with being the first to offer a new format if it does something new. Minidisc was a mystery at the time - it was the first time Sony had gone crazy (not the novel format, which was actually neat and useful, but in injecting noise in the output to ruin digital copies, but plainly audible), and we couldn't understand why. But the crazy just kept coming after that, sadly.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

Lying and taking as much money as possible from first adopters is the Sony (capitalist) way.

I didn't know Sony was Israeli.

Re:Bluetooth is not about backwards compatibility

[bingoUV]

Sony was never different, you are just ignorant. Their founder, Akio Morita, proudly claims that they refused to let their dealers unsold quality Sony gear for a low price to give an impression of "premium" quality to customers. This was when things made in Japan were not considered good quality in the US - around 1950s and 1960s.

Ethics, or even creating interoperable, standards compliant devices has never been Sony's strong point. Even if the said "standards" had contribution from Sony.

Worth Noting that a Compatible Headset

[adisakp]

Is included with the purchase of PS4. Sony is probably just prioritizing what they can do in the time before launch. There's no reason they couldn't choose to eventually support Bluetooth later as well as USB (even though they're not promising Bluetooth now) and there's presumeably no reason why a third party couldn't create a USB-to-Bluetooth dongle for headsets either.

Re:Worth Noting that a Compatible Headset

[Seumas]

But how does the headset they're including in the console work, if it isn't USB or bluetooth? (Note that the PS3 controllers didn't have an audio jack on the controller, I'm pretty sure, so there's a good chance the PS4 won't, either).

They have to be really careful about this, because they didn't include headsets with the PS3 and as a result, few people use headsets on the PS3 even eight years later. It's often like a wasteland and it gives the PS3 a certain community-less atmosphere that pushes a lot of people away. If they fuck up pushing communication options early on, they could repeat it all over again.

Re:Worth Noting that a Compatible Headset

[unapersson]

The DualShock 4 does have an audio jack and the included headset works with that. I'm still surprised they've dropped Bluetooth support though.

Re:Worth Noting that a Compatible Headset

[disposable60]

It's consistent with Sony's belief that they can continue to push proprietary accessories on a standards-driven market.
MiniDisc
Beta
MemoryStick
This nonUSB/nonBT headphone that plugs into the DS4 controller - is it a 3.5mm stereo plug? - will non-Sony headsets work without adapters?

Some things take off - IF they have a co-opetition partner like Philips (cassette, CD)

Re:Worth Noting that a Compatible Headset

[Anonymous Coward]

bluetooth support on the ps3 is garbage at best (perhaps it has something to do with the network, but it works very poorly)

Re:Worth Noting that a Compatible Headset

[Anonymous Coward]

The audio jacks on the DS4 is standard.

Re:Worth Noting that a Compatible Headset

[strikethree]

Why in God's name are you defending them? You should be aware that this was a political decision, not an engineering decision.

Re:Backwards compatibility is not a right

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

"But it won't work with my ten-year-old $thing!" is the reason so many new products get bogged down before launch.

It isn't really Sony's problem to chase down every last bug with every last shit headset on the market; but implementing not-totally-fucked support for the USB Audio Device Class is one of those things that an OS not mired in the stone age is sort of expected to be able to handle.

Similarly, implementing support for Bluetooth 1.0/1.1 headset/handsfree profile and newer Bluetooth A2DP headsets is not exactly rocket surgery by the standards of shipping an operating system.

Again, supporting every last device means running up against some seriously fucked up firmware; but not even supporting your own-branded devices? Pure laziness.

Top Gun Sony Looses in a gunfight

[BoRegardless]

They are quickest and stand ready to demolish their opponent, go for the gun ... pull trigger ...

Re:Top Gun Sony Looses in a gunfight

[Anonymous Coward]

Too loose bro.

No necessarily a problem...

[Lisias]

... as I won't going to buy a PS4 while my PS3 setup is working fine.

I can change my mind when the migration to PS4 could fit my pockets. Until there, Sony can do whatever they want that it will only affects the ones willing to buy a PS4! ;-)

Just another

[Stumbles]

reason I decided to stay away from consoles of any type. IMO the Bluetooth implementations of Sony (PSanything) and Microsoft's Xbox are pure shit.

Re:Just another

[Anonymous Coward]

So you don't have either console, or any valid experience, and yet claim the BT implementation are "pure shit". You do realise that the PS3 uses BT for it's controllers, you fucking moron!

Re:Just another

[Anonymous Coward]

they can't be that bad. I've used the PS3 controller (dualshock 3) with Android phones and OUYA for emulator gaming flawlessly. It's a great controller for that because it's responsive and rechargeable over USB. I assume the PS4 controller will follow on that path.

It's a good thing...

[DdJ]

...that I do my best not to talk to gamers.

USB Truth

[Anonymous Coward]

USB, the only rectangular connector that takes 3 attempts to connect properly.

Re:USB Truth

[Anonymous Coward]

Trapezoids aren't rectangles, son.

Re:USB Truth

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the random, pointless fact. Here's another: icosahedrons aren't spheres.

Re:USB Truth

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone needs graphical evidence.

Re:USB Truth

[Megane]

Four, if you count the one try where you pushed it into the Ethernet jack.

Re:USB Truth

[ImprovOmega]

And micro/mini-USB isn't what he was referring to, son.

Re:USB Truth

[petermgreen]

mmm.

The trouble is that there is little to no difference in feel between a plug that is completely the wrong way round and a plug that is merely slightly misaligned or just a bit stiff. So even if you have it the right way round there is a good chance you will think you have it the wrong way round.

Some ports are certainly worse than others. I have an old PCI USB card that usually takes me about 5-6 attempts to plug into blind. I'm not sure if it's the stiffness of the sockets or the fact they protrude slightly from the panel rather than being recessed.

Re:USB Truth

[Anonymous Coward]

What causes that, crack or alzheimers?

Except for...

[Daetrin]

"Until now Sony has done a pretty good job of keeping future Playstation 4 owners happy."

Except for that little bit where there's zero backwards compatibility with PS3 games, beside which the lack of backwards compatibility for headsets is a pretty minor thing. It's certainly the #1 reason i'm not going to be getting a PS4 at launch. #2 of course being the wait until any initial hardware issues are resolved and #3 being that if i wait long enough there will be a price cut. I've got too many PS3 games i need to finish up and having to keep both the PS3 and PS4 hooked up at the same time seems like an annoyance.

Re:Except for...

[Anonymous Coward]

Backwards Compatibility has always been a rare thing in the console market. Granted it was Sony who introduced the concept when they were the newcomers.
I find it funny, that out of the original console makers only one is relevant and it struggles in the rear.

Proprietary everything has always been the way of the console. Lock-in is necessary to make them profitable.

Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[djdanlib]

A good pair of headphones can easily run you $500 (that's considered mid-tier).

You can easily spend that much if you don't find the less-known options while doing your research, that's very true. Stay away from the marked-up versions that are easily accessible and order yourself something for professionals instead. Especially look out for the brands like Sony, which may have innovated with their high end MDRs in the 1980s, but can't really justify the price tag today when everyone else is using the same drivers for much less money. You don't have to spend that kind of money.

I am a sound engineer, live and in the studio. I have to have accurate, reliable cans that I can use for hours every day and I can find them for far less than $500. You can get Etymotic in-ears for vocalists, drummers, etc onstage for $200-250. You can buy a nice pair of professional 250-ohm DT990 over-the-ears for $160 (new on Amazon no less) that you can wear all day. They stand up very well to a pair of $1500 electrostatic headphones and blow everything under $1500 away. Haven't heard them? Don't believe me? Try them out, A/B test with any more expensive pair through a few different audio clips, and you'll see exactly what I mean if your ears aren't shot. I acknowledge that some people have blown out their ears with concerts and construction equipment, or old age has taken its unfair toll on the ears. To them, there will be no difference and you just want comfort and construction quality at that point. But for those of us who somehow retained good hearing despite the odds... Talk to studio professionals to find out how to get a good pair of headphones, not gamers or people listening to their iPod on the bus. Good involves accurate sound, wearability all day, and replaceable parts that you can still order 10 years down the road. If you're spending that kind of money, you want it to be good.

To gamers: I guess that at the end of the day though, if you really want that unnatural jaw-vibrating bass boost for your explosions and dubstep soundtracks (and who wouldn't want that for their entertainment!!) you will probably want to start with good headphones that reach down very low and boost that bass with active electronics like an EQ or old DFX box. There's no substitute. Otherwise you'll have to buy the gimmicky crap like those battery-powered Beats / Monster headphones, but you know you're getting ripped off the whole time you do it. Get something that makes you happy but shop around for goodness' sake, you can be happy for a lot less than $500.

Helpful link to check out objective qualities of headphone sound: http://www.headphone.com/buildAGraph.php - and if you only shop by frequency response curves... you're missing the point. Look at the harmonic distortion curves as well.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[Solandri]

While I'm all for good headphones for listening to music, here's a cautionary tale about using them for gaming. Back in 2000 my sister got me a set of Sony MDR-7506 studio monitors as a birthday present. They've been eclipsed by modern designs, but back then they were a classic and a mainstay in the audio world whose only drawback was somewhat weak bass. They were exceptional when listening to music, so I eagerly plugged them into my computer to play some games.

It was terrible. The sound was so clear I could tell the musical instrument sounds were synthesized. I could hear when the sound samples looped. In some of the samples I could even hear background noise from the original recording (which becomes really annoying when looped). They completely broke suspension of disbelief and distracted from my immersion into the game. After a week of trying to like them for gaming, I sadly unplugged them and went back to the crappy desktop speakers. Yes the sound through them was muddy and muffled. But they just sounded like I had bad speakers, not like the sound was fake.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[tlhIngan]

Get something that makes you happy but shop around for goodness' sake, you can be happy for a lot less than $500.

I never pay more than $200 - or even $150 these days now that I found Grado SR-80i's for around that price. Leaky as hell, but damn do you get good sound for the price.

Of course, the cheapest I've heard were the Koss Porta-Pros - $40 for some impressive sound quality.

Spending a ton of money on headphones is ridiculous - and yes, the next step up in Grado to the SR-125's jumps from $140 to $300+.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[djdanlib]

Those are some respectable headphones. Hope you still use them for other things! I have some ~$150 Sony MDRs from 2000 as well and I just recently retired them after someone else blew them out at a gig when I wasn't at the board. Until then, they were still good enough for live mixing.

You're totally right, good reproduction shows poorly produced audio for what it is. That's why we need monitor headphones in the studio, so we can make sure we don't produce audio that sounds like garbage on good hi-fi systems. Back in the 90s, it was much too expensive for your average game developer to do much audio editing. Only the biggest developers had the budget for it. Maxis, Sierra, those guys.

The art continues to move forward, though, and a lot of great games have equally great sound production now. I bet you would be pleasantly surprised if you gave them another try on today's popular games. I have heard some stellar audio coming from games lately.

Old timers' note... Back in the day, we all got our friends together and laughed at those hilarious 160x120 RealPlayer clips from sites like Break and Milkandcookies playing full-screen on our 13" SVGA CRT monitors and thought "Hey, cool, we have video on the Internet." Now we see a video in 240 resolution (four times the resolution of those old clips!) on YouTube and make snarky comments about upgrading to a newer potato for the next recording. How about that transition from VHS to DVD to Blu-Ray to the new 4k formats... it's amazing how far digital content has come!

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[DeanCubed]

That's like the audio version of the complaints people have with HDTV - it looks too real, i can see Brad Pitt's zits, porn looks gross, the sets look fake.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[Megane]

To gamers: I guess that at the end of the day though, if you really want that unnatural jaw-vibrating bass boost for your explosions and dubstep soundtracks (and who wouldn't want that for their entertainment!!) you will probably want to start with good headphones that reach down very low and boost that bass with active electronics like an EQ or old DFX box.

If they really want that very low bass with their headphones, they should get a sub-woofer speaker body harness thingy. LFE is for your gut, not your ears.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[Lumpy]

This is why kids dont like expensive headphones or speakers, it shows them their mp3/aac music is complete crap. My daughters boyfriend made fun of my $5500 speakers in my living room until I had him listen to some sample tracks from my collection. he had on his ipod one of the songs so I told him, "plug it in the front of the amp"

WE listened to his ipod that he was proud of, then we listened to the DVD-AUDIO disc of the same song. I made him understand that he had never heard that song before even though he had been listening to it for a year.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[bigdanmoody]

Good advice. I've used the old Sony MDR-7506, Grado SR80, and my current pair of cans is the AKG K240. I listen through an Asus Xonar DGX sound card via a homebrew cMoy amp. I will have to keep an eye out for the DT990 as I was under the impression than they were much more expensive than that.

I alternate between Sennheiser PX100s and Koss Porta-Pros for office and portable use.

For PC voice chat use I use either a Zalman ZM-MIC1 mic that clips onto the cord, or an AntLion ModMic "add-on" boom mic.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[timeOday]

That's funny, I have and still use the MDR-7506, and the #1 thing I notice with them is I always hear something new in a recording the first time I listen to it with them.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[lgw]

DVD Audio is one more audiophile scam - Normal CD audio has the needed fidelity for human hearing. Of course, if you can get better remasters on DVDA (best abbreviation ever) than CD, more power to you.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[djdanlib]

Yup, buy the kit and do it yourself. They made them for drummers, originally: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/search.jsp?sB=r&Ntt=buttkicker

There are now commercial "gaming chairs" with built-in subwoofers too, but I bet you the Buttkickers work better: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/game-room-bar-furniture/gaming-chairs/abcat0106021.c?id=abcat0106021

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[djdanlib]

DVD-Audio... sigh. The format that should have been.

Where do you get them now? I used to buy them at Media Play, but they went under a long time ago.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[djdanlib]

It was very surprising to find them for that price. The "professional" model, versus the "premium" model, lacks a bunch of the chrome and costs about $100 less. Here's a plain search for DT990 with no referral codes. http://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=dt990

I have heard that the 600-ohm Premium version, which is almost $400, is even better. Is it really $250 better, though?? The distortion is already so low on the 250 ohm Pro version.

It's not for everyone though. You and I have specialized headphone amplifiers in one form or another on our rigs, most people don't... you get disappointing volume levels plugging a 250 ohm set into a cell phone, definitely would be even quieter on the 600 ohm version.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[NoImNotNineVolt]

Could you recommend a pair of headphones that someone who would best be described as an anti-audiophile would be able to enjoy dubstep soundtracks with? I used to have an old (early 90s?) over-the-ear Sony set that got me hooked on over-the-ear headphones, but those are long gone. I was thinking about getting something along those lines but with better low end, but I really haven't been keeping up with audio tech. I refuse to pay for branding (I didn't pay for the Sony ones!), so the Beats stuff was never under consideration. I don't necessarily need to rattle my brain apart, and I'd very much prefer to keep it under/around $200 per pair if possible. I mean, I don't want to spend more on two pairs of headphones than I would on a decent amp and set of subwoofers.

Not asking you to shop around for me, but simply offer a suggestion if you've got anything off the top of your head.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[Pubstar]

I use Sony V700s for DJing. They are loud, push lots of bass, and comfy as hell. And they are $100. For live shows, I use Allen and Heath Xone XD53s. A bit more bass, unnecessarily loud, but are uncomfortable on a large head for longer than an hour. Oh, and they are $200.

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[Anonymous Coward]

DVD Audio is one more audiophile scam

Let's check that claim out.

Why limit yourself to stereo? Surround sound isn't an audiophile thing, it's something most entertainment systems come with. Might as well take advantage of it. Can't do that with CD.

Normal CD audio has the needed fidelity for human hearing.

Sure, let's compare an analog process (hearing) to a digital process (CD) and try to assign a resolution to a device running on a variable clock (brain)... Most people can hear 15 kHz tones, a few can hear 20 kHz. So the frequency range of CD is indeed fine, thank you Nyquist.

Not all DVD Audio is high bit rate, but some take great advantage of it. The dynamic range is what makes the difference. 24-bit audio has a 144dB dynamic range. 16-bit CD quality has a 120dB dynamic range. However: It's not used to produce 144dB sounds next to 10dB sounds. It is used to articulate small differences better. For a visual equivalent, look at something resampled down to 16-bit color and then look at the original 24-bit image. You never get brighter whites, you get better resolution (more tones) in between black and white so gradients are smoother and other subtle things are visible. Sound is typically processed in 24-bit resolution in any studio, even ones using DAT tapes, and dithered down to 16 bit during mastering. So what happens with 24 bit audio is that sounds are clearer - you can distinctly focus on different components of the music - even though the frequency content is the same.

That aside, DACs are going to be very important here and you are guaranteed to have a good one on a DVD-Audio player. CDs will sound very good on that device.

Of course, if you can get better remasters on DVDA (best abbreviation ever) than CD, more power to you.

There it is, that's exactly what you get. A better remaster that isn't made for the radio or the car and so doesn't have the dynamic range squashed down to compete in the loudness war, where details are actually preserved.

Just admit that you like low fidelity, ok?

Re:Let's talk about headphones for a minute.

[lgw]

There it is, that's exactly what you get. A better remaster that isn't made for the radio or the car and so doesn't have the dynamic range squashed down to compete in the loudness war, where details are actually preserved.

The dynamic range on CD is already ridiculously high - vastly beyond what any given minute of music requires. It's enough for symphonies, where the overall volume of the piece can change tremendously over 20 minutes (or for movie audio with special effects) - the sort of thing that makes you turn the volume down if you have neighbors. And there's still headroom there in the dynamic range.

As far as a better remaster, in pop music, only the classics will be worth someone's time to remaster, and most are still from before the loudness war - but for those that do get remastered, you can usually find the same content on CD, if you look around.

Now, if you're talking about the mastering process itself, there you do want more bits per sample, so that the rounding errors that come from the mixing process stay below what will be written to the CD - but then that would be true regardless of the CD format. You always want somewhat better quality during mastering than you'll deliver at the end.

Re:Backwards compatibility is not a right

[dj245]

Again, supporting every last device means running up against some seriously fucked up firmware; but not even supporting your own-branded devices? Pure laziness.

Or a completely transparent cash grab. Consoles have always been about the peripheral upsell. Industry standards throw a huge shoe in that business model.

Re:What works? I'll tell you...

[freeze128]

Single Player content only, BABY!

Most PS3 users do not use a headset

[gsslay]

If you use a Bluetooth headset (as most PS3 owners do)

Most PS3 users do not use any headset, never mind those that are Bluetooth.

I think what you meant to say was "If your PS3 headset is Bluetooth (as most are).."

Re:Most PS3 users do not use a headset

[Control-Z]

Yeah, PS3 users don't talk.

Re:Most PS3 users do not use a headset

[timftbf]

Why would I want to talk to a games console?

The sound for the game comes nicely out of the TV. If I'm gaming when other people in the house are trying to sleep or otherwise in need of quiet, I can just plug a regular pair of headphones into the TV.

Re:Most PS3 users do not use a headset

[tompaulco]

I can provide another data point, having had playstations all the way back to the original. I have never once used a headset. I had one game that whenever I started it would say that no sound input device was detected, but it played just fine without whatever it wanted to be plugged in.

Re:Most PS3 users do not use a headset

[Uberbah]

Why would I want to talk to a games console?

If you're playing multiplayer online, obviously. I wonder if the parent sagely states that no one buys football games for consoles because he doesn't play them.

Re:Most PS3 users do not use a headset

[timftbf]

*sigh*

Or just possibly I could be gently mocking yet another discussion assuming "online multiplayer" is synonymous with "gaming".

Re:Most PS3 users do not use a headset

[Uberbah]

I wonder if you sagely state that no one buys football games for consoles because you don't play them.

Christmas doesn't move

[YesIAmAScript]

Complaining about companies not managing to keep schedules is valid. But suggesting they just delay a few months and ship after Christmas is absurd. And suggesting they delay an entire year makes no sense either. A tech product which is up-to-date for a Christmas release this year is behind the curve if it is delayed a year.

Two eardrums

[tepples]

Each cochlea has receptors for each frequency, doing a crude approximation to a short-time Fourier transform right in the ear. But each cochlea processes vibrations from only one eardrum, which I assume gl4ss meant. I'm under the impression that a lot of localization comes from relative delays and strengths of frequencies between the ears.

Re:Two eardrums

[Anonymous Coward]

Which isn't going to be solved simply by putting two drivers in each headphone. The second set of drivers is going to need some delay or somesuch otherwise the sound is going to mix without the distance/location information.

Re:Two eardrums

[Immerman]

>I'm under the impression that a lot of localization comes from relative delays and strengths of frequencies between the ears.

Also from the distortion introduced by the shape of your ears - close your eyes, cover one ear, and listen carefully to things around you as you turn your head, you'll probably be able to consciously hear at least a little of the distortion that your brain subconsciously processes, and get some sense of the direction the sound is coming from.

Old consoles become EOL

[tepples]

I've seen nothing in next-gen consoles which makes a compelling argument for upgrading

Other than that new games will stop coming out for the old consoles, and the console makers will pull the plug on the old consoles' online services. It happened for Xbox Live on the original Xbox, and it happened for most of the "app" channels (News, Forecast, Check Mii Out, Everybody Votes) on the Wii. At that point, if you want to continue to play online or with updated rosters and game design concepts, you'll either have to buy the new console or put a Steam Machine or other gaming HTPC in your living room.

Re:Old consoles become EOL

[Immerman]

But hey, new games have mostly stopped coming out for the current-gen consoles too, so you don't lose much. Almost everything these days is "Shoot People in the Face 7" and similar rehashes. Yeah the scenery and SFX change a bit, but it seems like that doesn't actually have much effect on anything. I remember when new games actually tended to bring something new to the table - new flavor, new weapons, new gameplay mechanics, meaningfully new environments, *something*. Can't think of more than a handful of games for any given console that do that these days. Yeah, it's maybe worth getting the sequels that incrementally refine things on the games you really like, but frankly I typically have to skip several releases to get enough improvement to be worth my $40+

Oh yeah, and get off my lawn.

Sony Bluetooth Headsets Will Work, Not At Launch

[Anonymous Coward]

"If you have a Sony-branded headset, PULSE gaming headset, or the elite edition of that product, you will need to wait for a system update coming in the future. It seems that those will not work at all at launch."

"If you have something that relies on USB for chat (like the Astro mixamps and Astro A50 wireless system), you'll eventually be able to use those. An update will be coming in the future."

Source: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/10/10/planning-on-using-an-existing-headset-with-a-ps4-read-this.aspx

Can we stop with the misinformation already.

Game discs with OS updates on them

[tepples]

It has been commonplace since the PSP to include the latest version of the console's system software on each game disc. That way, all an offline user has to do is insert a new game disc and patch up to the version of system software that was current when the publisher submitted the game to the console maker for lot check.

Re:Game discs with OS updates on them

[Kichigai Mentat]

Hell, it was common on the original Xbox for some games to silently update the Dashboard when you were playing. I remember it was the bane of some peoples' existence when they were trying to softmod their machines.

Re:Game discs with OS updates on them

[tepples]

Of course, with SteamOS set to take gaming HTPCs mainstream, there shouldn't be quite as much need for a softmod.

Re:Backwards compatibility is not a right

[Anonymous Coward]

Bluetooth was never meant to work anyway with all those profiles and versions.

TRITTON AX PRO 5.1

[David_Hart]

My TRITTON AXPRO 5.1 uses a TOSlink connector, so it will continue to work. I've thought about upgrading to a wireless Mad Catz (who bought TRITTON), but the reviews indicate that the quality dropped drastically.

I also have the OEM PS3 Bluetooth. I had bought it to use with the PS3 Eye for video conferencing, but VC across the internet is still hit or miss. I used it with my cell phone for a while, but the battery life sucked and there was no noise cancellation, so I ended up getting a Plantronics. Since then it has been sitting on a shelf. I can't see wanting to use it with the PS4...

Here's an idea...

[Fuzi719]

"ITworld's Peter Smith is shedding a tear for his $250 Turtle Beach PX5 headset." Sorry, but no sympathy for him. Instead of shedding a tear for your "beloved" device, why not DON'T BUY A PS4. But no, everyone will bitch and moan and gnash their teeth and rant online, but they'll still hand over their money to Sony, who doesn't give a rat's ass. Hey Peter Smith, it's YOUR fault, yours and those like you who keep giving these greedy idiots your money.

Not everybody absolutely needs back-compat

[tepples]

The Super NES couldn't play NES games, yet it sold. The Xbox 360 never got more than half of the original Xbox library emulated over its lifetime, yet it sold.

Re:Not everybody absolutely needs back-compat

[Daetrin]

So? I never said it wasn't going to sell. I just said i'm not inclined to buy one right away. I was eager to get an SNES right away because A: i'd already played all my NES games (being a kid at the time i had a lot more free time for games) and B: the SNES offered a dramatic improvement over the NES. The PS4 just doesn't offer those advantages over the PS3.

And note that we expect new generations of consoles to do more than the previous generations. The PS2 playing PSX games was an incredibly awesome new feature. The fact that no other console had ever done that before was one of the selling points and part of why i got a PS2 on day one.

When the PS3 came out it had PS2 backwards compatibility but the price was extremely high. By the time the price got down to something i was starting to consider they dropped the backwards compatibility, which reduced the value to me and made the new lower price still not worth it, so i waited still longer. Meanwhile i was busy playing all the old PS2 games i still hadn't gotten around to and kept discovering i didn't really _need_ the PS3. Eventually there was a good enough deal on a PS3 that it was worth it even without the backwards compatibility, and i really don't feel like i suffered from waiting.

So now the PS4 seems to offer even less advantage over the PS3 than the PS3 offered over the PS2. The graphical leap isn't nearly as large and there's absolutely no backwards compatibility. The price is a bit more reasonable so i'll probably have a shorter wait until it gets down to something i consider worthwhile. I _just_ picked up Kingdom Hearts HD for the PS3 so i've got to finish that before i even think of getting a new console. And maybe by the time i'm done with that the Wii U will have gotten another price drop and i'll pick up one of those first. It could easily be over a year before i get around to getting a PS4. I might not get a PS4 until FF15 or Disgaea 5 come out. Or maybe those will suck (that's certainly the way FF15 looks to be heading) and i'll wait even longer.

And of course a confounding factor in all of this is the resurgence in PC games, mainly due to availability via Steam, which reduces the relative utility of all the consoles.

Re:Not everybody absolutely needs back-compat

[Belial6]

Yep. Backward compatibility in consoles is the exception. Not the rule.

Re:Not everybody absolutely needs back-compat

[tepples]

PS2 playing PSX games was an incredibly awesome new feature. The fact that no other console had ever done that before was one of the selling points

Almost. The Atari 7800 could play 2600 games. The Genesis could play most Master System games with an adapter, as could the Game Gear. But the Genesis and 7800 got their back-compat the same way the PS2 got its: by using most of the previous console's hardware as an I/O coprocessor for (say) running audio. The Nintendo DS would end up doing the same thing.

And of course a confounding factor in all of this is the resurgence in PC games, mainly due to availability via Steam

There are still several genres that lean heavily toward consoles, such as sport games, fighting games, party games, or anything else with shared-screen multiplayer. It's common to see games in these genres released on Xbox 360 and PS3 with no PC port or a 2-year-delayed PC port because of publishers' fears of widespread copyright infringement. I guess I'll have to wait and see if the Steam Machine fizzles the way OUYA did.

Re:Not everybody absolutely needs back-compat

[Daetrin]

I didn't know that about the Atari 7800. We went from the 2600 to the ColecoVision, which could actually play 2600 games with the use of a special adapter, but having to buy an extra piece of hardware doesn't really count as real backwards comaptibility in my book. I had a Sega Master system but never got any other Sega systems until the Dreamcast, so i wasn't aware of that backwards compatibiltiy either, though as previously mentioned i wouldn't personally count them as being truly backwards compatible because of the required adapter. Maybe i'm just easily impressed that they included all the "adapter" bits inside the PS2, but i felt like it was a big deal at the time.

There are definitely genres that work better on consoles, or at least are designed with that in mind. However i don't play a lot of sports or fighting or party games, so that's not a huge appeal to me. Most of what i play these days is JRPGs, tactics, strategy, tower defense, roguelikes, and Minecraft, all of which are well covered by the PC. Oh yeah, and replaying old NES and SNES games. Also well handled by both the PC and my Nexus 7 :)

Re:Not everybody absolutely needs back-compat

[Pubstar]

As someone with a large MAME and Taito X2 emulators, I beg to differ. I also play Skullgirls and SSF4AC on my PC with a 360 arcade stick (Hori RAC Pro 2 and a Mad Catz TE). Any 360 controller works on PC, so I fail to see why it's better consoles.

Re:Backwards compatibility is not a right

[hobarrera]

To call this backwards compatibility, there bluetooth would need to have been replaced by something else as a headset standard. It hasn't. It's the latest thing there is, and Sony does not support it.
WIRED headsets is backwards compatibility. Who even uses wired headsets in the living room!?

Sony releases PS4

[Gothmolly]

No Bluetooth. No USB. But more space than a Nomad. Lame.

Journalism

[raketman11]

Great article. This journalist waited for Sony to come with a clarification? Wow. Guess his headset can't make calls because that's what a proper journalist would do.

Damn whiners...

[Anonymous Coward]

You bought shit to work with a PS3. A new console comes out that has already said no compatibility for games with the prior console. They've already said they'll try to make it work in the future. It still works with the features you bought it for (aka works with *PS3*). And yet people still piss and moan.

Oh, I get it: People are so amazingly smart that THEY would have made it work at launch, resolved conflict in congress AND delivered world peace, but $ONY sucks!

Re:Backwards compatibility is not a right

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Their systems driver group has drivers that work with everything already. This is a corporate decision, not a technical or even support costs issue.

Please keep on making your product undesirable

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope that Sony and Microsoft continue to /NOT/ listen to their fans - it'll only hasten the return of games to the PC.

Thanks for reinforcing my decision, Sony

[The Last Gunslinger]

Around the time of the CD-R rootkit fiasco, I wrote off Sony as a vendor entirely. I simply refuse to do business with a company that shows such complete disregard for its customers. Does this mean I don't own ANY Sony tech? Of course not...but it does mean that I have not given Sony a red cent. My PS3 is a 2nd- (maybe 3rd) hand unit I pick up from Craigslist.

I just don't understand why any thinking person would support a company that still runs its business on the razor/blade model of entrenchment and vendor lock-in, especially for tech. To deliberately cripple functions or expend engineering resources to create obstacles to easy operation is just insane. The entire point of having standards is to make components interoperable. It's this modularity that vaulted the PC clone to the top of the microcomputing world. It's why I will likely never buy anything from Apple.

Ugh. Just UGH. Not knowing the first thing about the PS4, I hope it goes down in flames.

Re:Thanks for reinforcing my decision, Sony

[scuzzlebutt]

You bought a Sony unit, so you *are* giving them money, albeit indirectly. If you buy a single title new, or even if you rent one, you're giving money to Sony... Hell, even if you buy a second (or third-) hand game, you still supported the beast...

Re:Thanks for reinforcing my decision, Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

Around the time of the CD-R rootkit fiasco, I wrote off Sony as a vendor entirely.

Stop. Enough. You just explained to Sony why you doesn't matter to them anymore.

The rest is no different from the usual Android fan lamenting why Apple didn't do this and that. Hint: if you have already decided not to buy from a company, why imagine that company would listen to what you have to say?

Re:Thanks for reinforcing my decision, Sony

[bingoUV]

You strengthened the idea in your second-hand-gear-seller that Sony devices have good resale values. So now they, or people they are talking to, could get more likely to buy Sony devices.

Seriously? This is your argument?

[The Last Gunslinger]

You do understand that the peripheral bus is not the same thing as the core logic platform, right?

It's not about the ability of the platform to play PS1/2/3 games, but the ability of the device itself to utilize existing accessory input devices built on STANDARD communication link mechanisms.

You are aware that Sony has a long and storied history of forcing (expensive) unnecessarily proprietary peripheral devices onto their customers, right?

There's really no excuse for this, other than to say this is just Sony still showing complete contempt for their customers.

Can't wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

...for even more Sony fanbois to get smacked by Cinavia and they go crying...

How can you call that ready for launch?

[ralphaostrander]

Really just miss the xmas sales. I dont want that.

Buying extra hardware for back-compat

[tepples]

We went from the 2600 to the ColecoVision, which could actually play 2600 games with the use of a special adapter, but having to buy an extra piece of hardware doesn't really count as real backwards comaptibility in my book.

In your book, would the Wii have been compatible with GameCube games? Someone who didn't already own a GameCube would have had to spend $30 on a used GameCube controller and memory card.

Oh yeah, and replaying old NES and SNES games. Also well handled by both the PC and my Nexus 7 :)

I tried playing an NES emulator on my own Nexus 7. The on-screen gamepad was unusably clunky in anything with fast action. My Wii Classic Controller worked with emulators until Google changed the Bluetooth stack in Android 4.2 in such a way as to break Wii Remote communication. And you still have "to buy an extra piece of hardware" (a Kazzo for NES or a Retrode for SNES) in order to load your Game Paks into a PC- or Android-based emulator.

Re:Buying extra hardware for back-compat

[Daetrin]

Well as someone who already owned those things because he had a GameCube that seems backwards compatible to me. Admittedly it's a slightly fuzzy area, but you wouldn't have to buy anything to play the game on the Wii that you wouldn't already have had to buy to play on the GameCube.

I don't use the screen controls on my Nexus 7. I've got a PS3 controller synched to it via the Sixaxis Controller app. I have no idea what a Kazzo or a Retrode are, and i seem able to play the games on my PC and tablet just fine, though i'm not sure why you're making a big deal out of that. It's not like i was claiming they were somehow backwards compatible with consoles in the first place =P

They're for making ROM images

[tepples]

I don't use the screen controls on my Nexus 7. I've got a PS3 controller synched to it via the Sixaxis Controller app.

Which is fine for people who happen to already own a PS3, not so fine for those who happen to have chosen some other console years before the Nexus 7 was announced.

I have no idea what a Kazzo or a Retrode are

Do you know what a USB CF or SD card writer is? Kazzo and Retrode are essentially the same thing for Game Paks: they let you copy the program to a ROM image on your PC to run it in an emulator. Without either making a ROM image or buying an emulator that includes ROM images (like Midway Arcade Treasures or Namco Museum), you can't run a game in an emulator.

No one is forcing you...

[scuzzlebutt]

So don't buy the damned thing.

Dear Sony,

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony just to be upfront this is a breakup letter. It's not me, it's you. Every time you guys change something you find a way to screw the consumer for money and more money. Ive had it, I'm done. You can go fuck yourself into obscurity. My new partner the PC and I are doing really well together playing on hardware that's already nowhere near as outdated as your "as yet to be released" system.

Carbon bike wheels and frames Supplier

[cesiumlin]

The 2012-13 Social High School Mountain Bike Racing season starts November 17, 2012, with the much-anticipated SoCal CycleFest, a gala event - with guest star Aaron Gwin - supporting a youth cycling program in the region. The Board of Directors of the SoCal High School Cycling League is proud to announce that this year's CycleFest will take place at Meanda Grove in Riverside. This fifth annual event will include dinner and both silent and live auctions. [url=http://www.go4sporting.com]carbon mtb frames[/url] Highlights of the auction include a fully supported four-day mountain bike trip for two on the White Rim Trail in Canyonlands National Park by Western Spirit Cycling Adventures, a Specialized Carve, and a Turner Flux with Fox fork. The event will include presentations by two SoCal League student-athletes discussing their experiences in the League. The League will also be awarding its first ever Community Impact Award to Jim McIlvain and Mountain Bike Action Magazine for their ongoing work of bringing the SoCal League and high school mountain biking to a broader audience. www.go4sporting.com A highlight of the evening will be a special guest interview with reigning two-time World Cup Downhill Champion Aaron Gwin (Trek World Racing). Gwin is looking forward to CycleFest 2012. www.go4sporting.com "There's a long history of mountain bike racing in the US. [url=http://www.go4sporting.com]carbon wheels bicycle[/url] I was fortunate to be exposed to bicycle racing at a young age, and it's helped me achieve the goals I've set in my career. High school mountain bike leagues are very important, and they deserve to be on the same level as the traditional stick and ball sports in schools." Matt Gunnell, the Executive Director of the SoCal League,[url=http://www.go4sporting.com]carbon mtb wheels[/url] is confident this will be an event to remember. "I'm thrilled to be able to present high school mountain biking in such a great setting with so many great supporters," he said. "As the SoCal League enters its fifth season, we are truly becoming a fixture in the southern California high school sporting scene. www.go4sporting.com http://www.aliexpress.com/store/730826 www.go4sporting.com http://www.aliexpress.com/store/730826 www.go4sporting.com

Doesn't ship with a PC

[tepples]

An Xbox 360 controller works well with a PC, but it doesn't ship with a PC. Having a controller on a PC is currently beyond the least common denominator, as Anonymous Coward explained at length in this discussion. Heck, wireless controllers need an adapter to even work with a PC, and this adapter is hard to find in stores. This means developers and publishers of notable games tend to deprioritize play-testing their games with an Xbox 360 controller, assuming that (unlike you) most PC game buyers won't already own one.

Re:Doesn't ship with a PC

[Pubstar]

There are no wireless fightsticks for Xbox 360 (well, any worth using). And Windows has amazing 360 support. Its on par with a 360. Any game that says "Gamepad Supported" really means "Xbox 360 Controller Use Only" due to it using xinput (the API for using a 360 controller with DX). Everything 'Just Works' with a 360 controller on Windows 8 (Win7 requires a driver install). You are aware that they make wired 360 controllers with USB, correct, and that they are decently common? I have one sitting on my desk right now as we speak.

Whats the difference between testing KBM input versus a 360 controller input anyways? Its all just instructions sent to the application to run. The only thing you would have really test would be the analog support, but then that is covered by anyone who owns a joystick. Its like telling me that they "Deprioritize" play testing Microsoft Fight Simulation 2000 with a flight stick and throttle because it doesn't ship with a PC. It it works better with a certain input device, majority of the devs will test with it. Either that, or they are idiots.

Re:Doesn't ship with a PC

[tepples]

Any game that says "Gamepad Supported" really means "Xbox 360 Controller Use Only" due to it using xinput

This is true of games sold as Windows Store apps because DirectInput isn't part of Windows Runtime. But I was under the impression that some PC games sold as desktop apps still supported both DirectInput and XInput APIs.

Whats the difference between testing KBM input versus a 360 controller input anyways? Its all just instructions sent to the application to run.

Different methods of sending instructions are better at sending different kinds of instructions. For example, a mouse is better than a joystick at sending a sequence of positions, but a joystick is better than a mouse at sending a sustained velocity. Imagine how you might play something like Mega Man or Castlevania with just a pointing device, such as a mouse, a trackball, or a mobile device's touch screen. And good luck sharing a keyboard between two players if both players learned how to play the game on a keyboard rather than a gamepad.

Its like telling me that they "Deprioritize" play testing Microsoft Fight Simulation 2000 with a flight stick and throttle because it doesn't ship with a PC.

Microsoft Flight Simulator is like rhythm games such as Dance Dance Revolution or Rock Band: a specialized controller is part of the gimmick. The majority of games don't have that luxury. Instead of playing games designed for a standard gamepad on PCs, I'm told that most people prefer to play games designed for a standard gamepad on consoles even if it means forgoing all PC-exclusive games. I'm not claiming to be an authority; I'd be grateful if you could prove me wrong by citing reliable statistics that people buy Xbox 360 gamepads for use with PCs instead of Xbox 360 consoles.

Re:Doesn't ship with a PC

[Pubstar]

It just happens that (from a sample size of a large group of friends) that we all own 360s and PCs. We switch between both, so we have the controllers laying around. They are mostly wired due to us being cheap (they run $25-30 new Vs. 50 for a wireless) and we are all broke college students. On the topic of the fighting games, it would fall into "Specialized Controller." Playing with a KB setup is just near as terrible as with a gamepad. Even the specialized '6 button fighting layout' - where there are 6 buttons for your thumb, not 4 - controllers for 360 are wired. Most 'serious' players like me buy controllers for these games. Just like you buy a flightstick for a flight simulator. The DDR/Rock Band point is moot - The base models of all those games COME with the controllers, therefore are the LCD for the game controller input. Its the update packs or new music packs that do not come with the controller. The flight stick rarely comes with the flight simulator.

Just a quick list of games I play that have XInput support (well implemented) - Hell Yeah!, Jet Grind Radio, Rhythm Destruction [PC Exclusive/Indie], CaveStory +, Waves [PC Exclusive/Indie], Beat Hazard [99% Sure PC Exclusive], Tony Hawk's Pro Skater HD, Any racing game out since 2008, Strike Suit Infinity/Strike Suit Zero [PC Exclusive/Indie], Tera [PC Exclusive/MMORPG], Skullgirls, SSF4AC, Street Fighter X Tekken, Serious Sam DD, Any Source Engine game, almost every console port (Mass Effect series, Dead Space series, etc.), Hotline Miami. Those are just the games that I have in my steam library/own. For the racing games, I own the whole series for: NFS, Grid, and DiRT.

. Xinput support is very much alive and well with PC gaming right now. The whole point of Big Picture Mode with Steam is about playing on your couch with a controller.

Re:Doesn't ship with a PC

[Pubstar]

For clarification - Well implemented to me means I plug the damn thing in and it works. Zero configuration needed.

Re:Doesn't ship with a PC

[tepples]

It just happens that (from a sample size of a large group of friends) that we all own 360s and PCs.

Doesn't help people who own a Wii and a PC, or a PS3 and a PC. Or people whose only gaming PC is stuck on a desk in another room.

The whole point of Big Picture Mode with Steam is about playing on your couch with a controller.

Which is why I asked for stats on Big Picture uptake. If I were to believe people like adolf, nobody is willing to build a second PC for Big Picture. But thank you for your list of titles.

Re:Doesn't ship with a PC

[Pubstar]

Fair enough on the first point. Maybe its just me, but majority of the people I hang out with do own XBox 360s. I have a fringe few that have PS3s, but I do understand that my sample size does no reflect on the situation as a whole. The original point was more so about Fighting Games being better on consoles, and I was just pointing out that its a specialized controller for people who even take it remotely seriously, and honestly, most people who play fighting games do it on a 360. Since I hang out with mostly guys I used to hang out with at the local arcade, that probably would explain the bias to having 360s and wired 360 controllers.

I wouldn't have the stats on hand about update, but one thing that I would say is this - If you're anything like me, you would have tons of spare parts laying around. You know, the "just in case" fallback after you upgraded. I actually built a secondary rig for TV gaming out of spare parts accumulated over the past 2 years of upgrades. I'm not sure about the state of PCs today, but I was under the impression that most people enjoyed building their rigs. It was their pride and joy. It was part of the experience that came with PC gaming. Doing so and upgrading to keep current will leave you with a trail of parts to build a secondary PC. The only thing I really had to buy for the rig was a 7770HD due to the old 6870 burned out (OC experiment gone wrong). So thats about $120 spent on a system that basically works as a full home theater system. All the apartment's music, movies, MAME/Taito Type X2/Misc. emulators, and steam accounts were on that rig. I think that people look at it as "I need to build a new system" rather than "Lets re purpose all the old parts that we have laying around".

Re:Doesn't ship with a PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't help people who own a Wii and a PC, or a PS3 and a PC. Or people whose only gaming PC is stuck on a desk in another room.

Just to inform, it's only a google search and driver install away from getting a PS3 controller to work on your PC.

It's not "it just works", but it does work for the two games I cared to use a controller on the PC

What I find annoying though is that those two particular games - and I doubt they're alone - assume your controller is an Xbox one, so instead of square, triangle, cross, circle, they give instructions/tooltips in A, B, X, Y, etc

It's another challenge to controllers on the PC (or any generic computing device not built for gaming). Even if the hardware can talk to each other, the users can't. "Press the A to confirm" "You mean circle?" "Don't you mean cross?" "I'm from 20 years ago, my PC joystick buttons go by numbers!" "You guys are all wrong! The buttons should be O, U, Y, and A! Hey guys? Anybody listening?"

No Blutooth yet, but optical out the sound still d

[Anonymous Coward]

Optical out your sound to say your turtle beach still works! Use the ps4 mic provided with your system plugged Into the controller to chat!

Cross, square, circle = Xbox 360

[tepples]

Just to inform, it's only a google search and driver install away from getting a PS3 controller to work on your PC.

So where should people learn in the first place that it's even possible to connect a PS3 controller to a PC so that they can Google how?

Even if the hardware can talk to each other, the users can't.

Tell me about it. All four buttons are X. The easiest way I've seen to fix the tower of Babel that is PC gaming input is to autoconfigure XInput and the most popular DirectInput gamepads and for the rest, ask users something like "Player 2: Press up, down, left, right, jump, fire, and special, in that order."

ou guys are all wrong! The buttons should be O, U, Y, and A!

I wonder how much of that comes from working around other console makers' trademarks.

Now prepare for a mind screw:

1. What letter looks like the CROSS? X.
2. What's made of cardboard and SQUARE? Box.
3. How many degrees in a CIRCLE? 360.

What does that spell?

Re:Cross, square, circle = Xbox 360

[Anonymous Coward]

So where should people learn in the first place that it's even possible to connect a PS3 controller to a PC so that they can Google how?

Well, my answer would be: from their curiosity; from their urge to fulfill their own desires; from their spirit of exploration and discovery.

The market is for the most part a great mechanism in providing people what they want, but it's up to the consumers to decide what they want, and act upon those wants.

Depending on what you want, your choices on the market may be limited. What you do about it is also up to you. If the market doesn't readily have what you want, you can do without, look for "close enough" alternatives, pay a premium to have someone devise a solution for you, for build the solution yourself (for fun and/or for profit), etc.

I wonder how much of that comes from working around other console makers' trademarks.

I think it's more about OUYA wanting to create their own trademark and brand image. To the business, it's relatively low cost way to distinguish yourself from the competition

And if you're Nintendo, having a different scheme for each of your (families of) consoles is part of your development cost. I think they say it's to give the user a unique experience each time. Considering they've lasted this long they may be on to something. Instead of trying to "recreate" an experience (bring the PC to living room large screen, bring console games to the PC) they're doing their own thing.