Slashdot Mirror
8 US States Pushing For 3.3 Million Electric Cars
An anonymous reader writes "A coalition of eight U.S. states, including New York and California, have announced a plan to get 3.3 million zero-emission electric vehicles onto their roads by 2025. 'The states, which represent more than a quarter of the national car market, said they would seek to develop charging stations that all took the same form of payment, simplify rules for installing chargers and set building codes and other regulations to require the stations at workplaces, multifamily residences and at other places.' An editorial in Quartz says that while the initiative itself is fine, the states should really take cues from Tesla if they want to plan out an infrastructure that will convince people to switch. ' For longer distances, [Tesla drivers] can stop at "Supercharger" stations strategically placed along highways that let them add 150 miles of range in as little as 20 minutes. Currently, [government] money is being spent on installing much-slower chargers at stores, shopping malls and other urban locations in the hope that drivers will use them. Tesla says it will blanket the US with its Superchargers for a fraction of the cost, because it studies the driving patterms of its customers and installs charging stations only where they tend to travel. This isn't hard; most other electric cars also record their drivers' habits. If privacy concerns could be addressed and automakers would be willing to share that data with government transportation planners, the rollout of public charging stations could be more targeted and cash-efficient.'"
You can be sure that Texas is not one of those eight states.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
Overall demand has been flagging with no reversal in sight. If anything, this would help generators stay in business.
Yes if you are standing around waiting for it. If they had slow charging stations in parking locations it doesn't matter, and at some locations a 20 minute gas stop is normal even for gasoline cars. Last time I took I-80 westbound we had to wait for 15 minutes to get to a pump, then 5 minutes to pump with another 10 minutes to wait for traffic to get out of my way so we can get back on the highway. Instead, if there was a charging station at the oasis I would plug in, go inside to use the bathroom, get a coffee, and walk back out in those 20 minutes instead of sitting in my car while the guy with the F950 pickup truck fills both his 300 gallon gas tanks.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Large fossil-fuel power plants can be made a lot more efficient than internal-combustion engines, even counting transmission and distribution losses (especially if you count distribution costs for gasoline). Running a car on energy from the electric grid is greener than running on gasoline, even if your power comes from coal plants -- and in most places, not all grid power is derived from coal.
Actually solar can work, you can easily build a 200amp 100% solar charging station.
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/02/solar-integrated-ev-fast-charging-station-eco-station-gets-coda-energy-storage-system/
CODA energy is putting them all over the place.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Yes, they are still sub-optimal for long road trips. However, as long as you can get a full day of normal driving in on a single charge, and recharge overnight in your own garage the picture looks much better, especially as a primary car where the second car where the other is gasoline powered. Weight it largely irrelevant to most people - once you can't pick it up it's just one more factor in the efficiency and performance characteristics. And cost, well that is what it is for now, the early adopters always pay a premium.
As someone said "There's nothing wrong with electric cars that batteries with twice the capacity at half the cost wouldn't fix", and there's plenty of promising new battery technologies on the horizon, we just need one of them to make it out of the lab.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
And I'm sure the owners tend to travel where there are charging stations.
Nuclear reactors cannot modulate their level of output several times per day, yet as anyone reading this should know, demand changes greatly over the course of the day. On a minute-by-minute basis, demand is pretty chaotic. That's why the nuclear industry spurred the construction of a great deal of the hydropower capacity that we have today.... so it could actually stay in business.
The interesting thing is that today's deregulated energy markets don't have the stomach to stick with nuclear power projects: Once bureaucrats commit their ratepayers (you and me) to a project, the price invariably skyrockets. Geographic monopoly, business culture and the sheer size and complexity combine in an unfortunate way that sets nuclear up for failure.
Those renewable sources, however, are already making use of the hydropower capacity that the flagging nuclear industry in no longer using. They say: Thanks!!!
As for the dis-ingenuity of posting about "unreliable" renewables in a thread about BATTERY-based transportation.... LOL.
That is assuming that nobody else has a leccy car already hooked up to each pump.
More likely you would sit there waiting at least 20, possibly 30min to get a charging plug then continue as you described. Since if there really is that long of a petrol line leccy would be long as well... if not, it will be.
Yes if you are standing around waiting for it. If they had slow charging stations in parking locations it doesn't matter
That's fine if 0.05% of cars around are electric. But it's totally unrealistic to think anything justifies the expense of putting an electric charging unit into every single parking spot.
Even if there aren't ever very many electric cars, you have to worry about non-electric cars taking up your spot. And if you decide that there are going to be some electric-only spaces now you have reduced the capacity of the whole parking lot for something used even more infrequently than handicapped spots.
Instead, if there was a charging station at the oasis I would plug in, go inside to use the bathroom
The thought that every time I need to charge in public I get to experience a public gas station restroom is reason enough to go buy a stiff drink and a hummer.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I presume you think Fossil Fuel cars produce less, or the same amount of, pollution than electrics when powered by coal burning electricity?
False. Electric motors are more efficient than ICEs.
You are so fond of pointing out that lithium has to be mined and yet when doing your sums about gasoline you don't include - drilling the crude oil, moving it to a refinery, refining it and then transporting the actual fuel for vehicles.
Perhaps you think that biofuel makes sense? It probably does if you are an Iowa corn farmer. If not, then you should know that the fertilisers needed uses fossil fuels even before the corn begins processing. (Haber Process.)
There is no realistic prospect of ICEs ever being powered by anything other very finite resources. Electricity can be renewable and thus is actually a long term plan.
Oh we have the means to provide the NEEDS of everybody. What we don't have is the means to provide the WANTS and DESIRES of everybody!
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Running a car on energy from the electric grid is greener than running on gasoline, even if your power comes from coal plants.
Not true. In city driving Tesla claim a 292 mile range off a 85kWh battery, or 651kJ/km. Adding in battery manufacture and allowing a generous 1000 cycles, that goes up to 923kJ/km. Allowing for losses in electricity generation (40% at best) and transmission (~7%), the overall consumption is 1653kJ/km.
A medium size diesel gets about 60mpg (UK gallons), equivalent to 1690kJ/km. The difference is just 2%.
Check out the grid utilization from Midnight to 6am in any timezone. Would it surprise you to know the load is generally less than 40% of peak? Assuming reasonable charging models, there is no need to radically expand the electric grid.
And no, it is not zero emission, but certainly using an electric vehicle produces far less direct polution than driving a typical ICE car.
Electric cars still look quite unattractive to me.
I keep seeing this claim, and honestly can't quite figure it out - I mean sure, the Tesla S doesn't quite have the sexyness of a Bugatti, but y'know, when you have the Veyron in for detailing, you have to let the chauffeur drive something.
Charge all day long from a photovoltaic panel the size of a parking space. On a sunny day, that energy might get you a few miles, on a cloudy day, it might not get you out of a big parking lot. And that is being generous.
I'm thinking more along the lines of entire buildings' rooves decked with PV cells; so the building is mostly powered using solar, and the reduced building power consumption serves to offset additional capacity demand being pulled by the charger during the day.
Running a car on energy from the electric grid is greener than running on gasoline, even if your power comes from coal plants
To put some numbers to this, the EPA says that the average car emits 423 grams of CO2 per mile, and that the average US coal plant emits 1216 lb (551 kg) of CO2 per megawatt-hour produced, which is 551 g per kwh. My Nissan LEAF gets about four miles per kwh. Assuming pure coal power, and ignoring line losses, that means my car causes 138 grams of CO2 to be emitted per mile I drive.
Now, the LEAF is a very small, very efficient car, significantly more efficient than most gasoline-powered cars (mainly for range reasons). So comparing 138 to 423 straight up isn't a fair comparison, but even if you assume a normal car is half as efficient as the LEAF, it's still 276 grams per mile vs 423 grams per mile. Throw in some line losses and the gap closes further... but it's pretty clear that electric vehicles cause less CO2 production than gasoline vehicles, on a per-mile basis, even if all of the electricity comes from coal.
For me it's even better because although Colorado is primarily coal-powered, I mostly charge my car only at the office, and my employer (Google) pays a little extra to buy "green" power, mostly wind and hydro, I think. So my car's carbon footprint is much lower. This highlights another aspect of electric vehicles: if we switch to EVs (where appropriate -- they don't work for everything), it is at least possible to replace coal generation with something cleaner. Wind, hydro, wave, solar, nuclear, geothermal... there are lots of clean ways to generate electricity.
I should also note that I, personally, don't care that much. I bought a LEAF not because I was anxious to save the planet, but because it's cheaper to own and operate than a gasoline-powered car, at least for my driving patterns. The fact that it's cleaner is a pleasant bonus. It's also a lot of fun to drive because electric motors have awesome torque and I love how quiet it is. It's a great little car, and I'm very happy with my decision to buy it (lease it, actually... I think EV tech is changing fast enough right now that there's value in being able to upgrade regularly).
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Given the current state of the US electrical grid, I'm not confident it would fare well against a sudden increase of large battery packs being plugged in at once.
Actually, having a large distributed storage capacity could (if the utilities had any will to take advantage of it rather than just do the absolute minimum necessary to keep the PUC from shutting them down) vastly improve the grid's overall resiliency. Each one of these cars stores roughly the same amount of electricity as a typical house uses in three or four days.
It actually surprises me that Tesla hasn't actively promoted the idea of using the car itself as a necessarily well-maintained whole-house UPS. "Does the thought of losing power overnight cost you precious sleep? Never again! With Tesla's patented bidirectional charging station and crossover inverter, Mother Nature will need to throw more than a few flakes or gusts of wind or downed trees your way to keep you from enjoying the big game!".
And that ignores the possibility of actually tapping into them to help smooth out the peak demand curve - Our baseline consumption would cost us around two cents per kWh, if not for the fact that normal residential rates average that against insane on-demand spikes of 30-60 cents for a few hours a day.
All this blather and government planning and so on.
I said nothing about government planning. I'm not sure your comment was directed at me?
What I said is that it's not feasible to put charging stations in every parking spot. It is insane. There's no way you will ever make a return on that investment.
Electricity is the future of autos; but not the kind where your car needs charging via electric cables to every home or parking spot.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
10 m2 * 150 W/m2 * 8 h/day / (150 Wh/km) = 80 km/day. (*)
That covers the average commute quite nicely some of the time. In winter or inclement weather, not so much.
Still, the smugness of travelling gratis - abstracting investments - is seducing.
(*) Conversion to other units, including but not limited to BTU, miles (your pick), square feet and 1/32nds of a fortnight left as an exercise for the reader.
Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
IF you have your car in a garage and charge it overnight, then you may rarely ever need to charge it away from home -- only for road trips, really. Depending on your driving habits, you may go months without visiting a charging station.
Even then, if you have a Model S and stop at a Supercharger station, you'll have the option of paying for a battery swap, which can get you back on the road in about two minutes.
Finally... Remember that even 3 million cars is only about 1% of the cars in the USA. Today's electric car technology can't meet everyone's needs, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine it meeting the needs of 1% of the population. Things can grow from there as the technology continues to improve.
You're totally right, and I think the industry is keenly aware of this, and they are working on how to address it.
Gasoline cars have been mass-produced and cost-reduced for decades. It's really quite amazing to look at the cost of an internal combustion engine and see just how cheap they are, considering the materials, parts and tolerances that they require to produce them. The same can and should happen to electric cars, but it just doesn't happen overnight, and it won't ever happen without them being in active production.
The Tesla Model S is Tesla's second car, and it's a huge advance over the Roadster. The Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf are first-generation products. We're just at the beginning of this change, so be patient!
A quick check shows common electric vehicles today are actually using about 400 Wh/km. That can be improved under optimal condition (perfect temperature, no stopping/starting, no air conditioning, everything maintained perfectly, flat terrain)
As I've been saying for years - solar carports on every parking lot, giving power & shade. The US Southwest, among other places, would benefit greatly from these.
If the power is being used to charge EVs, you can bill for it.
If not, you're still providing shade and offsetting some of the use of the businesses / shopping centers.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
The US fuel flow rate at filling stations is 10 gallons per minute.
That's the maximum allowed by law, not the standard. Read your own link. No pump I've seen goes anywhere near that fast.
Free Martian Whores!
It's not even close to being an issue, check out the graph in this link.
Unlike you, I know where this equipment comes from.
There are only a few (less than 9) providers of gas pumps in the US, and they all compete.
Fast delivery is key to profitability of gas stations in busy areas.
The reason the EPA had to limit delivery rates was to prevent tank venting from blowing right by the
recovery system. The EPA insisted they dial back the deliver rate.
10 GPM is not difficult to achieve.
How GPM A 1/2 inch pipe can deliver per minute depends on the pressure. If you have low pressure (flowing out of a slightly elevated tank), you can get about 7 gallons per minute. For average pumped pressure, you can assume you will get around 14 gallons per minute. If you have it set on a high pressure, you can easily get 21 gallons per minute. The nozzle of an unleaded delivery hoze is 0.840 inch, the inside diameter is slightly larger than 1/2 inch.
However the vapor recovery systems can't handle the vent fumes coming out of the tank when it is being filled that fast, so stations were required to dial down the pressure. This is one of the things a State weights and Measures inspector checks.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
A lesser known fact involving the economics of electric cars is that by using electricity you typically are using a locally generated energy source. If this is combined with renewable energy sources such as solar panels on your house the economics become even more interesting. The key to all this being that money normally spent "fueling" traditional vehicles often leaves the country or even the continent completely. By switching to a more local source of energy this money is freed to be potentially spent on local goods. While this sucks for the oil producing areas and countries it really works for the vast majority of countries that import massive amounts of vehicle fuel.
The above only applies to those areas that are able to source their energy locally.
Why this economic fact is important is that it must be taken into consideration when looking at the cost of improving the grid or even putting solar on people's houses. The benefits of not exporting your money can easily outweigh a fairly sizable margin in the cost of fueling the vehicles.
Some small countries with bounties of sun and no fossil fuels will really win when the combination of cheaper batteries and better solar cells become available.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the concept of an oil war will be gone in 20 years.
Which doesn't really matter since the entire point is pollution shifting from street level in crowded cities to power stations with high stacks and a pile of pollution controls behind them (since it's not 1970).
The lead time on battery technology is getting very short - stuff from less than a decade ago is commercially available. Compare that with things like the single layer indium gallium arsenide semiconductors made in dozens of labs before the year 2000 but not yet in a product. Aviation is another since the most recent large passenger aircraft have the first new implementations of technology that was in the lab before most slashdot readers were born. I saw a working scramjet model in 1986 and there's still a bit of work before an engine manufacturer condescends to take decades of work for free and build a commercial engine out of it.
Electric cars still look quite unattractive to me. I keep seeing this claim, and honestly can't quite figure it out - I mean sure, the Tesla S doesn't quite have the sexyness of a Bugatti, but y'know, when you have the Veyron in for detailing, you have to let the chauffeur drive something.
The people who think electric cars are ugly are often the same people that think a Hummer3 or a Escalade are attractive.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
[reposted with the correct parent]
A diesel engine is an ICE.
probably what you meant was that ICE's used to directly power vehicles are less efficient than ICE's used to indirectly provide power.
I'm surprised/annoyed that there aren't more vehicles using hybrid setups, as you can use smaller, cheaper batteries, nice strong electric motors to propel/brake the vehicle, and an ICE generator to keep the battery topped up.
It's commonly used for the largest vehicles [mega-sized digging machines and dump trucks] and now for some of the smallest vehicles, but nothing in the middle.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
It costs tens of thousands to add more gasoline pumps. An electrical charging spot costs less than $900 and are trivial to install.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Sigh. Then you push the big 'start charging now' button on the dash. I know this is Slashdot where perfect is the enemy of good, but for the majority, charging the car in the wee hours of the morning is perfectly fine, and is the solution to the OMG THE GRID WON'T HANDLE IT response.
The best cars in the World Solar Challenge average about 100 km/h, for 9 hours a day, using the full days' sunlight. (They start charging at dawn, finish at dusk, but Challenge rules only allow them to drive for 9 hours a day.) So that's 900 km per day, every day, off 6 square metres of cells. A parking space is at least 12 square metres.