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Federal Prosecutors, In a Policy Shift, Cite Warrantless Wiretaps As Evidence
schwit1 sends this quote from the NY Times "The Justice Department for the first time has notified a criminal defendant that evidence being used against him came from a warrantless wiretap, a move that is expected to set up a Supreme Court test of whether such eavesdropping is constitutional. The government's notice allows the defendant's lawyer to ask a court to suppress the evidence by arguing that it derived from unconstitutional surveillance, setting in motion judicial review of the eavesdropping. ... The practice contradicted what [Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr.] had told the Supreme Court last year in a case challenging the law, the FISA Amendments Act of 2008. Legalizing a form of the Bush administration’s program of warrantless surveillance, the law authorized the government to wiretap Americans’ e-mails and phone calls without an individual court order and on domestic soil so long as the surveillance is “targeted” at a foreigner abroad. A group of plaintiffs led by Amnesty International had challenged the law as unconstitutional. But Mr. Verrilli last year urged the Supreme Court to dismiss the case because those plaintiffs could not prove that they had been wiretapped. In making that argument, he said a defendant who faced evidence derived from the law would have proper legal standing and would be notified, so dismissing the lawsuit by Amnesty International would not close the door to judicial review of the 2008 law. The court accepted that logic, voting 5-to-4 to dismiss the case."
There have been a lot of firsts for Eric Holder's corrupt and diseased justice department.
an ill wind that blows no good
This crap is never going to stop as long as the evil Rethuglicans are in power.
Having lived in East Germany, I can tell you. East Germans didn't pretend they were free.
This is NOT a test of whether a warrantless wiretap is constitutional. It is a test of whether the Supreme Court is willing to blatantly disregard the fourth amendment AGAIN.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
How are we, the U.S., different from East Germany?
The US has an independent press that's always critical of the government, no matter which politcal party is in power, like the New York Times.
The US has an independent press that's always critical of the government, no matter which politcal party is in power, like the New York Times.
Was...was that a joke?
Like it or not, the Patriot Act effectively suspended the Constitution. Under the Patriot Act the government basically does as it pleases and they don't even have to tell anybody what they do. It is only because of Edward snowden that we even know about any of this. Will the supremes uphold the constitution? I doubt it. The Global War On Terror isn't over until politicians declare it over. Get some new politicians, and we'll see then.
The US can kill an American and his teenage son, yet no one can challenge the action because they were not directly affected. If all the relatives are taken out in one action, then the US is free and clear.
We can't just protest to have unconstitutional laws removed, we have to prove they were used on us. Simply keep quiet about parallel construction and you're good to go. If the defendant says "yes they did" and the US says "no we didn't", then the constitutionality of the law makes no difference, the US is free and clear.
This thing about not challenging a law because it doesn't affect you is bullshit.
If a law is unconstitutional, then it should be possible to challenge the law on its face.
How are we, the U.S., different from East Germany?
Easy. The US is using its national intelligence agencies to obtain intelligence on terrorists trying to kill people. The intelligence agencies themselves don't have police powers. The suspect in this case is accused of assisting a terrorist group. East Germany's secret police had both an intelligence function and police powers. Their primary purpose was to keep the East German Communist party in power. The secret police were referred to as "The Sword and Shield of the Party." You could be arrested and imprisoned for such things as making jokes about the nation's leadership, wanting to form a new political party, being a member of an unapproved church, trying to leave the country without permission (could get you shot on the spot), and many other possible infractions. It isn't a small gap between them.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Was that
A> warrantless wiretapping was only being done when it involved one foreign contact on the other end.
B> such wiretapping couldn't be used as evidence in any trial anyway.
Essentially a splitting of hairs but the US citizen be brought up on charges.
This is now turned on its ear - the Obama Administration is saying they can gather evidence on you WITHOUT permission (IE Illegally!) and they can charge you with a crime so long as they inform the accused they gathered such information... Illegally...
WTF has this country come too?!
How are we, the U.S., different from East Germany?
Easy. The US is using its national intelligence agencies to obtain intelligence on terrorists trying to kill people.
Except when they entrap people who are too stupid to find their way to the bathroom and lead them by the hand into a Hollywood terrorist plot that they never would have come up with on their own. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/nyregion/16terror.html http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/dec/12/how-terrorist-entrapment-ensares-us-all
They have the power to fix it, if they care enough.
By... not voting for Bush?
I wonder how that'll turn out.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Having lived in East Germany, I can tell you. East Germans didn't pretend they were free.
So you're saying that America is better at propaganda than East Germany was?
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
You HAVE read 1984, right? We are actually in a Forever War. The War on Drugs has become the War on Terrorism, and every year our "police forces" become more and more militarized.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
He's a representative sample of what the U.S. government has become, and that's by no means limited to either component party of the Ruling Class.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
It's sad to see the US turning into a police state. Or perhaps it's too late, that's been done, and they're just dotting the I's and crossing the T's.
If this evidence is deemed acceptable, you can expect the scope of the surveillance to expand dramatically as there is suddenly a reason for tapping the people in-country: prosecution. You can expect widespread surveillance to capture gang bangers, drug dealers, and probably even the guy next door who works "under the table" to avoid paying the IRS.
Modern technology gives the government powers far over and above anything that has ever been available before when it comes to monitoring the population. And not merely monitoring, but controlling. Unlike with television, the "message" you get on the internet can be customized and tailored based on where and how you're surfing from. Newspaper sites have already been doing this for years, tailogring the news based on which nation someone is surfing from.
I must admit I would never have predicted the abuses that I'm seeing happen. There was so much hope for the benefits of the internet when it was starting that no one ever really discussed the potential for abuse. Worse, you can't even try to stop the abuse because if you implement the end-to-end encryption that can prevent it, the government comes down on the companies involved to force them to stop. You're not allowed to maintain your privacy through a service like LavaBit in this new surveillance society.
There was a Sylvester Stallone movie years ago that porttrayed an idyllic society above ground where it was illegal to even swear, and where in-room monitors spat out tickets for such offenses automatically.
Is that where our world is headed? Towards a stale and staid managed society where any crime is a major shock because the people have stopped even thinking about performing criminal acts because they expect to be caught immediately if they try? It sounds like a lifestyle of fear and repression far beyond anything even the Nazis or East Germany ever dreamed of.
I'd say that it all starts with this case, but we all know that's not true. It started years ago, when the surveillance began. This case is merely a continuation of the world government's mission to enslave humanity.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
"The US is using its national intelligence agencies to obtain intelligence on terrorists trying to kill people".
Mostly BULLSHIT.
"The intelligence agencies themselves don't have police powers".
Fully BULLSHIT.
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has both an intelligence function and police powers. Their primary purpose is to "secure the nation from the many threats it faces". You can be arrested and imprisoned for such things as whistle-blowing, opposing the status quo, being an unapproved immigrant, trying to enter or leave the country without permission (could get you shot on the spot), and many other possible infractions. No gap between them but the propaganda gap.
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
I can see it now, gun nuts getting blown to bits by missiles and bombs they never even saw coming before firing a single shot.
Get over yourselves, you aren't protecting us from anything.
... there is NOTHING FREE !!!
I am speaking on experience.
I am an American, a naturalized American citizen.
I came from China.
I, and many others, risking our lives and swam to Hong Kong back in the 1970's. They were shooting at us, back then.
We risked our lives not because we were poor (and we were) but because there was NO FREEDOM for the people.
Everything that we did - who your friends were, where you been to, what you did, why you did what you did, everything - was under the watchful eyes of the BIG BROTHER.
I went to the United States precisely because, back then, the United States of America was the only country that could guarantee my freedom, because, back then, the government of the United States of America still had respect for The Constitution.
I became an American citizen precisely because I found the freedom that I had longed for.
That was back then.
Not now.
Nowadays, the so-called "freedom" has all but evaporated.
When the prosecutors (or rather, persecutors ) can charge people with warrantless wiretaps , what is the difference between the United States of America and the former East Germany under Stasi or China under CCP ?
Back when I became a naturalized citizen of the United States of America, my new government was still operating under the Constitution of the United States.
No more.
Under the Obama administration, I am sorry to say, the Constitution of the United States has become as valuable as soiled disposable diaper.
As an American, I am sad.
As one who was from an oppressed state, risking live in order to gain freedom, I am HORRIFIED.
I am watching THE COUNTRY THAT I ADOPTED turning into just like the one I ran away from.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
This has been true since the country was formed. Why is it only in the last 30 years that S.W.A.T. has been used at the drop of a hat and average police regularly go out with military-level gear?
No, we shouldn't. Armed yes, militarized no. The militarization is due largely to the drug war and departments dumping money into shit they don't need to and assuming a stance of force over communication with the citizens of whatever city they feel like pointing guns at.
Bingo. Even at the height of prohibition, when Al Capone and his ilk were carrying Thompsons, the police forces throughout most of our nation were still carrying six-shooters. City police forces didn't respond to Tommy guns by purchasing tanks and bazookas. Alright, so maybe New York, Los Angeles and Chicago don't have tanks today, but they do have APC's that they refer to as "rescue vehicles". Mounting a machine gun or a small cannon on one of these is simple enough. A similar model with a main gun isn't much of a reach at all.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Eric Holder can do no wrong because he is a black man. Furthermore, now that we have black man Jah Rasta Johnson as the DHS leader, nobody can complain about performance or creeping fascism because both are black men and to criticize black men is racist. And racism is a hate crime. Blacks are, after all, predisposed to crime, and will naturally resort to the appropriate criminal behavior even after an Ivy league law education. It's what we free-thinking tea-party individuals like to call "Chicago Politics."
Do you disagree, you racist motherfucker? Huh? Do you?
-- Ethanol-fueled
Chicago has a long history of corrupt politics, as do several other major cities. To focus on the group identity is to distract attention away from the power plays that are being made. That is simply a strategic error. That corruption is becoming more inclusive and diverse along with better and more worthy enterprises is hardly relevant to the state of the republic today. It really does not matter who is at the helm, under what holy name they crusade, with which justification they advance towards fascism. These matters are academic and within the realm of mere trivia.
What really matters is how and why the average person does not wake up and realize that the America they were taught to believe in does not exist, and how their own philosophical, intellectual, moral, and character flaws prevented them from seeing this at the very beginning. There is indeed something wrong with a person who argues passionately about minutia like sports and television shows while their nation is decaying. None of that could be an accident.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
I know it's very fashionable to compare US to the communist countries, which most of you haven't lived in, and aren't even old enough to have seen on TV. I did - and let me just say it's nothing alike.
Still, perhaps it's worth reading the "FA" to understand exactly what it means?
tl;dr; version - some US prosecutors have been using evidence so derived in criminal cases without notifying defendants. Sometime during this summer someone higher up in Justice Department became aware of this (I'll take this claim at face value for now) and after some discussion (and presumably some opposition from those prosecutors who found the practice very convenient) it was decided that hiding the warrantless wiretaps from defendants is not acceptable (based on the way the law is interpreted).
Based on that, find 3 differences between US and East Germany. I'll take a stab at it:
1. There is a discussion in the prosecutorial branch wrt. legality of application of such law, and the outcome of that discussion is factual information provided to defendants, that may aid in their defense.
2. The court will take this in consideration, and we will see this debated, probably at every level of judiciary all the way to Supreme Court.
3. We are reading about all of this in the major media news outlet.
Do you need me to tell you which of these items did not apply to the "Soviet Russia"? You, people, have no f-ing idea and your childish fits undermine legitimate efforts to create more transparent government and more just society.
What really matters is how and why the average person does not wake up and realize that the America they were taught to believe in does not exist, and how their own philosophical, intellectual, moral, and character flaws prevented them from seeing this at the very beginning. There is indeed something wrong with a person who argues passionately about minutia like sports and television shows while their nation is decaying. None of that could be an accident.
A religious bigwig recently came back from Europe and commented that it is a "spiritual desert".
The problem with the average American you describe is that s/he is the product of a philosophical desert. People here literally don't know how to think, instead worshipping spirits, technology, sports, sex, money, consumerism; The consummate 'mainstream' American leading the Good Life is a confluence of all of these. I personally know people who have recoiled with revulsion when I casually described pure scientific research as an occupation (e.g. "scientists" are thought of as ensconced within for-profit corporations trying to discover things that are either convenient and/or lethal); both times there was no larger political, religious or other context to the discussion apart from talking about some of the people we know. The first time I chalked it up as a fluke misunderstanding; the second person I knew had understood and it frightened me to my core.
This country now produces strident anti-intellectuals: People who worship technology and "science" for its pure power and ability to effect a result. In some ways they're as alienated as can be from The Enlightenment that ostensibly produced our Constitution. Polls show they--most Americans--love the surveillance state.
Philosophical discussion is regarded as unforgivably weird and threatening here, even among people holding four-year degrees. If you lose the ability to probe concepts in general, you lose the ability to effectively probe/question authority (though making an ineffective, self-immolating show of it never goes out of style).
A well-armed and coordinated populace can throw out a well-trained and well-funded military. All you need to do is coordinate the American gun-owners into an organized resistance, which in a country this size, you'll have to do via telephone, email, text message, postal mail, or simply physically travelling around.
And we all know that the government can't track you when you.... aww, crap!