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Healthcare.gov Official Resigns, Website Still a Disaster

Nerval's Lobster writes "A government official who helped oversee the bug-riddled Healthcare.gov Website has resigned his post. Tony Trenkle, Chief Information Officer (CIO) for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which oversees Healthcare.gov, will reportedly join the private sector after he departs on November 15. A spokesperson for the Medicare agency refused to say whether he had been forced out, telling reporters: 'Tony made a decision that he was going to move to the private sector and that is what our COO announced yesterday.' Because of his supervisory role, Trenkle is considered a significant player in the Website's development; The New York Times indicated that he was one of two federal officials who signed an internal memo suggesting that security protocols for the Website weren't in place as recently as late September, a few days before Healthcare.gov's launch.Following Trenkle's resignation, Health and Human Services secretary Kathleen Sebelius admitted to the Senate Finance Committee that Healthcare.gov would require hundreds of fixes. 'We're not where we need to be,' she said. 'It's a pretty aggressive schedule to get to the entire punch list by the end of November.' Sebelius added that she was ultimately accountable for what she termed the 'excruciatingly awful' rollout. Healthcare.gov has experienced massive problems since its Oct. 1 debut. In addition to repeated crashes and slow performance, the Website's software often prevents people from setting up accounts. President Obama has expressed intense frustration with the situation, but insists the Affordable Care Act (ACA) backing the Website remains strong. 'The essence of the law, the health insurance that's available to people is working just fine,' he told reporters in October. 'The problem has been that the website that's supposed to make it easy to apply for insurance hasn't been working.' While the federal government won't release 'official' enrollment numbers until the end of November, it's clear that the Website's backers are losing the battle of public perception."

559 comments

  1. As an outsider. by goruka · · Score: 5, Informative

    It seems like a giant project that was hurried, kind of like a Windows Vista. Isn't it getting gradually fixed?

    1. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      ... kind of like a Windows Vista. Isn't it getting gradually fixed?

      Same thing can be said about Linux, right? As far as I know, no OS is truly perfect.

    2. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't fix something that is fatally flawed. The problem isn't the website, the problem is the cluster fuck of a law they passed. No amount of code can fix a bad idea.

    3. Re:As an outsider. by homey+of+my+owney · · Score: 2

      Well maybe, but Microsoft had the advantage of being able to fire incompetent employees. No bid awards typically have far less to due with performance and more to do with maximizing payment.

    4. Re:As an outsider. by FearTheDonut · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While you might well be correct, the issue at hand is the website. It's a bit disingenuous to say the whole law is broken because of the website. That is, unless the same people who made the law are the ones coding.

    5. Re:As an outsider. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter, because the people raising the complaints don't understand software engineering in the slightest. If anyone here has ever released a first version of entire multi-function web-application without a lot of bugs on release day, they almost certainly spent a positively absurd amount of time(like a year or more) on nothing but QA.

      Every single person inside our industry ought to know that software engineers produce 10x as many features as other engineers with 1000x as many defects(and that's low balling it) in a given timespan.

    6. Re:As an outsider. by QilessQi · · Score: 2

      If you're not a US Citizen, you might not be aware that the new healthcare law which Healthcare.gov was built to service was advanced by the current President (a Democrat) amid much controversy, and the opposition party (Republican) is firmly against it. There have been media blitzes (propaganda efforts, if you will) on both sides of the political fence around the failure of the website. I think all parties can agree that it has been a bit of a political embarrassment for the President.

      So, yes, this is a big project that was probably hurried amid changing requirements, with perhaps with too many players not talking to each other and not using the right tools. And yes, it will eventually get fixed or have parts rewritten, because that's what always happens in these sorts of situations.

      But in the meantime, member of both parties are demanding that Blood Must Flow. They just disagree on whose.

    7. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They may fix or scrap it, but either is irrelevant. This is nothing but corporate welfare designed to pull tax dollars out of the middle class and put those dollars in the pockets of the healthcare industry. The poor benefit because they are the most likely to riot and resort to crime if they are forced to pay full-price, so they are given breaks and Jamal's repeated trips to the emergency room as a result of gang-related fights are subsidized by the taxpayers. The rich obviously don't need to give a shit, and congressmen and many other government workers are exempt anyway.

      Even staunch supporters of Grand Dictator Baraq Hussein Sotero are now getting fucked by Obamacare, with their plans being cancelled and being charged 2-3 times for what is essentially the exact same plan. The American government is not even pretending that they aren't openly fucking the American people, Baraq himself says, "You're gonna take it in the ass, and you're gonna like it!"

      -- Ethanol-fueled

    8. Re:As an outsider. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Was this no-bid? I'm given to understand it was standard federal bidding process, but I haven't actually looked into that particular facet.

    9. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems like a giant project that was hurried, kind of like a Windows Vista. Isn't it getting gradually fixed?

      Think about what Windows Vista would be like if the specifications came from Congress and the White House. At the last minute.

    10. Re:As an outsider. by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How much did linux cost you, again? There's a difference there.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    11. Re:As an outsider. by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      I just wonder how they will maintain security protocols with all these different entities they are bringing in last minute to the help fix the code. If they screw up and don't protect user information, things will get a lot worse.

    12. Re:As an outsider. by AJH16 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I am not the original poster, but my understanding is that a lot of the complexity of the site comes from a draconianly complex law that simply can't easily be implemented officially. There are so many hoops that have to be jumped through that it drags the system down. So yes, a badly conceived law could be a reason for the poor performance of the site if it puts overly burdensome constraints on the system. I don't make any claim to the accuracy of those assertions, but I know they have been made.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    13. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's like saying your car is broken because the website you tried to buy your car from crashes a lot.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    14. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yet the KY site is running just fine and has good enrollment. That would indicate it's the website at the moment. You can't blame the law until it actually goes into effect and we see the results. Well you can blame the law but you'll just be another one of those haters you isn't using evidence based arguments.

    15. Re:As an outsider. by NettiWelho · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter, because the people raising the complaints don't understand software engineering in the slightest. If anyone here has ever released a first version of entire multi-function web-application without a lot of bugs on release day, they almost certainly spent a positively absurd amount of time(like a year or more) on nothing but QA.

      Every single person inside our industry ought to know that software engineers produce 10x as many features as other engineers with 1000x as many defects(and that's low balling it) in a given timespan.

      All I know is +$200m website budget(in excess of $600m total for entire system) pays for a lot of QA and since the project appearently didn't even go to the lowest bidder they dont get to claim lack of resources...

      Also there is a world of difference between having bugs and being incapable of performing to the minimium requirement specification.

    16. Re:As an outsider. by alexander_686 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is true. But what we can do is divided large sophisticated software packages (OS or applications) into 2 categories.

      “Big Bang” packages where the entire packaged is released at once. Vista and Health Care web site are two examples. These have a history of delays, cost overruns, and initial releases performing poorly. This is particularly true for government ones.

      “Evolutionary” packages which come about from a lot of small incremental changes. Linux and Windows for Workgroups 3.11 are 2 examples. Issues are know so things are stable. Thing gradually get better. Lots of legacy code that lend itself to lots of legacy “features” (a.k.a. bugs).

      By choosing the “big bang” method we know the kind of troubles we are going to run into. As such extra effort should have been put into delivering requirements on time so adequate testing could be done. At times this means rejecting additional features or (in the worst case) functionality.

    17. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1

      I don't have any links to back this up (use google) but the "no-bid" myth has been pushed many times before in these Healthcare.gov threads. I have seen links posted to prove that the myth is false.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    18. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The intersection between firms that have the know-how to navigate the Federal Acquisitions Regulation and the firms that have the know-how to produce a public-facing web service that is actually fit for purpose is either the null set or damn close to it.

    19. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When and estimated 93 Million people will lose their insurance so the law can cover 30 Million who didn't have it, that is a failure of the law.
      These numbers are from White House documents.

    20. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      It seems widely known but little reported that Michelle Obama’s Princeton classmate is an executive at the company (CGI) that built healthcare.gov. Reportedly, only one bid was reviewed... CGI's.

    21. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Look, I use Linux and love Linux and am even considering fully switching away from Windows but let me just say that cost is not only measured in money. It's also measured in time. There are certain users for whom Windows (7) will provide all the functionality they need without ever needing an additional driver, or a new window manager (KDE vs Unity vs Gnome), or a custom screensaver (why does Ubuntu not come with a screensaver?), etc, etc. We're doing ourselves a disservice by assuming everyone wants what we want. A lot of people are genuinely comfortable with Windows and our refusal to see that only clouds our vision, not Microsoft's.

    22. Re:As an outsider. by cdrudge · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think all parties can agree that it has been a bit of a political embarrassment for the President.

      I'm not sure how much of a political embarrassment it really is. Yeah it should be working, but I'm not sure embarrassment is the right word. The right wants to make the website it an embarrassment, but they would want to paint whatever happens as an embarrassment even if the website worked perfectly. The left wishes the website would have worked. But with close to 2 months left before anyone is required to have insurance, there's still time.

      Look at previous administrations for more embarrassing things. Bush with his wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, lies about WMD, and everything that resulted in the "War on Terrorism". That's an embarrassment. With Clinton, the affair with Monica Lewinsky and all that came with that was an embarrassment.

      If Obama is going to be embarrassed politically, I think it should be more for his domestic and international spying programs.

    23. Re:As an outsider. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      You actually found one I've not seen before - first time I've seen 'conturd.' I usually see CON-servative or rethuglican.

    24. Re:As an outsider. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Informative

      That $600MM figure is, naturally, a fabrication. That's the total amount of all software contract work by the entire department of health and human services in the time-frame of 2009-2013. Needless to say, if you can't imagine what other outlays that might include, you're crazy. $93MM(the real number) is still a lot, but 9 women can't delivery a baby in a month.

    25. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How much did linux cost you, again? There's a difference there.

      You mean in my time or my headaches trying to get shit to work correctly? It has cost me plenty over the years, thank you.

    26. Re:As an outsider. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "If you're not a US Citizen"

      The whole world is aware. We all follow US politics. It's just so entertaining - like professional wrestling, but with slightly less violence. Our own politicians are mostly all very sensible and boring, nowhere near so much fun to watch.

    27. Re:As an outsider. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      A bit of news searching eventually answered my question. The answer is: if there was a bidding process, it was kept secret.

    28. Re:As an outsider. by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 3, Interesting

      lambert strether is doing the best post by post analysis of what went wrong. It is clear from the posts that he has experience with IT and web implementation projects, so it is written from a techie's point of view.

    29. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How much did linux cost you, again? There's a difference there.

      So far, about 20 years, and my pride.

    30. Re:As an outsider. by meburke · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, I kind of agree with you; The law may be faulty, but sniping at the website problems won't fix the underlying flaws.

      Economists know that every attempt at price controls over the last 4500 years (approximately) have resulted in shortages of the goods/services under control, and higher prices for those goods/services. All I needed to know about Obamacare was that it is a form of price control.

      I'm 65 years old, and I've been tracking the results of Obamacare among the people I know. (NOT a scientific study.) So far, I'm seeing 8 instances of increased insurance costs (including two people who just qualified for Medicare/Medicaid) for every 1 instance of cost savings. It seems that some States, like NY, are benefitting from the increased competition created by allowing offers across State lines.

      It is an Economic Principle that whatever you tax, you will get less of. Obamacare imposes about a 9% additional tax on each employee, and so it is probably going to lead to fewer qualifying jobs in the private sector. The number of part-time and temp jobs seems to be increasing here in Texas, but full-time work is hard to get outside industries such as Medicine and Energy.

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
    31. Re:As an outsider. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the answer. I found similar assertions after a bit of sifting through news searches(with the caveat that they haven't yet actually answered the FOIA requests about the bidding process).

    32. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet the KY site is running just fine and has good enrollment. That would indicate it's the website at the moment. You can't blame the law until it actually goes into effect and we see the results. Well you can blame the law but you'll just be another one of those haters you isn't using evidence based arguments.

      The law is already in effect, dipshit.

    33. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please tell another bald-faced lie.

    34. Re:As an outsider. by dmbasso · · Score: 2, Interesting

      why does Ubuntu not come with a screensaver?

      Settings > Brightness & Lock > Turn screen off when inactive for ...

      Ah, you want something that show you ponies, rainbows and stuff? I don't know, never felt the need for it.

      --
      `echo $[0x853204FA81]|tr 0-9 ionbsdeaml`@gmail.com
    35. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 0

      You're confusing "lose their insurance" with "have their insurance changed to comply with Obamacare."

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    36. Re:As an outsider. by roccomaglio · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I used mod points in section which are now wasted, but it was worthwhile to correct this post. The Obama Administration only reviewed only a single bid for the Obamacare website http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/2537194. Whether that constitutes a no bid contract can be argued, but that is usually what is meant by that phrase. If you do not consider that a no bid contract then Halliburton was not awarded a no bid contract in Iraq. Calling the statement that this is a no-bid contract a myth is at best disingenuous.

    37. Re:As an outsider. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 0

      No bid awards typically have far less to due with performance and more to do with maximizing payment.

      So like Halliburton being given sole ownership of contracts for supplying the troops who invaded Iraq. Gotcha.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    38. Re:As an outsider. by cusco · · Score: 2

      The sacrificial lamb has been slaughtered, fingers can now be pointed, and now Washington will be happy and work fixing the site can proceed.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    39. Re:As an outsider. by geekoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      False. It comes from bad management, and bad program techniques.
      It really seems like a system that no one bothered to break the code out into tiny bits laid out over a good API architecture for data sharing.
      There are good software system of more complex code.

      "a badly conceived law could be a reason for the poor performance of the site if it puts overly burdensome constraints on the system."
      the law is a set of rules to apply. Nothing more. That is no reason for broken code. If you are talking about adding a second or three to a responce, you would be right.

      as a side note:
      " draconianly complex law " doesn't make sense.
      It could be a byzantine law, but draconianly isn't complex..also, I don't think it's an actual word.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    40. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You appear to rely a lot on anecdotes and "gut feelings". You may want to do some research.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    41. Re:As an outsider. by meburke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I totally object to your language and argument. It is inflammatory without being relevant.

      I agree that Obamacare is bad economics, and I have the opinion that it was rammed down our throats by a Socialist mob, but faulty argumentation is not going to get people focusing on WHAT's right; it just keeps the focus on WHO's right. (or who thinks they are right.)

      At this point I'm so fed up with politicians I think they should all be fired for not focusing on solutions that work for everybody, or at least almost everybody.

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
    42. Re:As an outsider. by xmundt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe this post IS "ethanol fueled", as it is certainly not the work of a sober person. There is at most, ONE correct statement in it. For example - The ACA limits the amount that insurance companies can crank up rates, and so will likely cut the huge profits they have been collecting. It also makes it impossible for the insurance companies to "cherry-pick" customers, and, only provide policies for the healthy folks who do not need them and will not put in a claim. It also stops the insurance companies from dumping sick folks that are going to require payouts.
                It is true that as a part of it, the act provides for subsidies to make an insurance policy that actually is helpful be affordable to the poverty-stricken. However, your somewhat racist remark about the trips to the emergency room are not relevant. First...a huge percentage of the people being helped by this are the working poor - like the "sales associates" at Walmart, who make so little they qualify for food stamps. These subsidies will make it possible for good, hardworking Americans to get adequate health care and NOT end up bankrupt in the process. Now, about Jamal.. Apparently you do not realize that (assuming you have insurance) you are already subsidizing the trips to the ER by gang-bangers. Hospitals in America are required, by law, to treat everyone that shows up at the ER, regardless of their ability to pay. So..the hospital simply cranks up the cost for the folks that DO pay to cover these folks. With the ACA, there is a much better chance that everyone that shows up will have insurance, and be able to cover some or all of the cost of their treatment.
                Your comment about the rich is probably the only accurate and correct statement in this post. Your comment about the government being exempt is far from true. As a matter of fact, they are REQUIRED to go into the exchanges to get insurance, unlike the rest of us that have a choice. Here is a decent analysis of the whole situation: http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/fixgov/posts/2013/10/04-aca-vitter-amendment-federal-workforce-hudak
                Finally, the government has NO control over the insurance companies canceling policies. The fact is that the policies that are getting dumped are the junk policies that cover nothing, and are nothing but profit centers for the insurance company. The ACA's requirements for amounts to be spent and such make these unprofitable, so, the insurance companies are dropping them. However this has little or nothing to do with the ACA. The companies were doing this on a yearly basis for decades, in an attempt to force customers into higher profit policies. So...do not blame the greed of the insurance companies on the Government. Also, your opinion about premium amounts is meaningless, since these folks are likely to qualify for subsidies. So far, the reports that have come in that have been verified as true show that the monthly cost of insurance has either stayed the same (but, with much better coverage), or dropped quite a bit.
                  Just because you do not like Barak (the CORRECT spelling of his name), for whatever reason, is no call to lie and spread mis-information.
                pleasant dreams
                dave

      --
      YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
    43. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You can't fix something that is fatally flawed. The problem isn't the website, the problem is the cluster fuck of a law they passed. No amount of code can fix a bad idea.

      From the Supreme Court opinion that upheld the individual mandate:

      It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices.

    44. Re:As an outsider. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 3, Interesting
      It's a bit disingenuous to say the whole law is broken because of the website.

      No, the original poster is correct. The law is broken because:
      1. It's not a tax since it raises no revenue
      2. The bill did not originate in the proper house of Congress. It was a retitled bill.
      3. How anyone can think the government can force people to hand money to private companies is simply insane. The last time a government tried this was 238 years ago, and we all know the result of that experiment.
      4. It violates ones privacy under the 9th Amendment and most likely several portions of HIPPA.

      Plain and simple, the law is broken and only exists because the activist Republican Justice John Roberts doesn't grasp basic Constitutional issues such as limitations on governmental power over the people.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    45. Re:As an outsider. by Lendrick · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The fact that the state websites seem to be working very well would seem to contradict your parroting of republican talking points.

    46. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rethuglican

      That's reserved for idiots who make fun of democrats for banning big gulps because they are bad for you then demand that pot stay banned because it's bad for you.

    47. Re:As an outsider. by xmundt · · Score: 1

      This is a good point. Also, to say it was "hurried" is an understatement. This is definitive proof that one cannot take a project that usually would take a couple of years to create and test, and crank it out in eight months, then, expect it to work. As far as I can tell, the front page is the only thing that works reliably in the entire site. That will get fixed, but, it will take more than a couple of months. I expect it will not stabilize for a couple of years - and that assumes that Congress does not start stirring things up and requiring changes.
                pleasant dreams
                dave

      --
      YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
    48. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would investigate whether there was kickbacks.

    49. Re:As an outsider. by odoketa · · Score: 1

      You're confusing "lose their insurance" with "have their insurance changed to not screw them when they actually need their insurance"

      FTFY

    50. Re:As an outsider. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "You know, in certain older civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords."

      I'm really not much into today's Kumbayah shit. A whole lot of government figures should be throwing themselves on their swords. For those who lack the honor and/or the fortitude, we have Seal Teams. At least those that haven't been murdered in recent years . . . .

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    51. Re:As an outsider. by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The point of the law is to remedy under-insurance, so obviously it will raise insurance costs on average. That's the cost. The benefit is that when people later incur health care expenses, they will collect on the new or improved policies they are now paying more for, instead of paying it all out of pocket, or going broke and pushing the costs on to the rest of us.

      It's just silly to count the cost of insurance without counting the benefits of the coverage.

    52. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've done my research. I've toned it down so I don't offend morons like you who don't understand Math or Economics.

    53. Re:As an outsider. by iserlohn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All I needed to know about Obamacare was that it is a form of price control.

      Well well.. so you've made up your mind and just looking for facts to support your case. However, I'm afraid to say, you are wrong.

      First of all, the ACA is not what is understood in economics as price controls. It is not a price floor, nor a price ceiling.

      Secondly, not all price controls are bad. Some are necessary as the market is not always optimal. Most of the time they are enacted to even out bargaining power discrepancies, and it generally makes the economy more efficient when done correctly. For example, there is a reason for the minimum wage - otherwise you have more and more working poor that rely on benefits (however, this didn't stop Wal-Mart due to deficiencies in the minimum wage), or alternatively you can cut all benefits and bring back poor laws and workhouses. There's a reason why we dumped that system.

    54. Re:As an outsider. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3

      Odd - Windows, in it's various incarnations, has cost me much much MUCH more than Linux ever cost me, in terms of time, frustration, and aggravation.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    55. Re:As an outsider. by odoketa · · Score: 1

      "We all follow US politics. It's just so entertaining - like professional wrestling, but with slightly less violence."

      Presumably excepting the guns and military interventions?

    56. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So far, I'm seeing 8 instances of increased insurance costs

      Care to tell me how far back that goes? I've been hearing the same line parroted for five years now, which means ACA's impact at worst did not halt already projected increases.

    57. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 2

      Here's a source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/17/us-usa-healthcare-technology-insight-idUSBRE99G05Q20131017

      The work on Healthcare.gov grew out of a contract for open-ended technology services first issued in 2007 with a place-holder value of $1,000. There were 31 bidders. An extension, awarded in September 2011 specifically to build Healthcare.gov, drew four bidders, the documents show, including CGI Federal.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    58. Re:As an outsider. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Well, actually, no one in the upper levels of Washington enjoy the end of finger-pointing. Cable news networks love to bring "experts"(politicians) on to describe the problem(blame someone). The politicians love to be on TV, because name recognition is the top indicator of electability in this stupid-damn-country.

    59. Re:As an outsider. by DaHat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is a bit of a difference between getting a letter from your insurance company that says "Due to the ACA we will be upgrading your plan at no cost to you to comply" and what we are seeing... Letters saying "Due to the ACA, we are canceling your policy effective Jan 1. You are welcome to apply for a much more expensive plan though us or the exchange... If you can even login."

    60. Re:As an outsider. by geekoid · · Score: 2

      "Economists know that every attempt at price controls over the last 4500 years (approximately) have resulted in shortages of the goods/services under control,"
      that's a blatantly false statement. Corn is price controlled. Do you have any problems at all finding corn?
      Price control is more complex then the ignorant statement. DO you even now about price floor? price ceiling? other type of price controls?
      Those where rhetorical, cause clearly you don't.

      " Obamacare imposes about a 9% additional tax on each employee, and so it is probably going to lead to fewer qualifying jobs in the private sector."
      where are you getting 9% from?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    61. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm...going to say you're full of it. And misinformed. And pretty biased.

    62. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a republican, registered Independent.
      What about those of us that think banning big gulps is ridiculously stupid and keeping up this farce to criminalize weed is also retarded?
      I know, I know, logical thinking has no place in your partisan, "us vs them" bashing. My bad.

    63. Re:As an outsider. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well - let's examine this idea.

      Let us suppose that General Motors is incapable of either putting up a website, or of contracting that job out to someone who is competent. Just suppose that General Motors has zero presence on today's internet. None. They are so clueless, that they don't see the need to invest the resources into an online presence. Just pretend that to be true.

      Do you really think that such clueless fools could possibly build a safe, reliable automobile? Do you really?

      That is what we are seeing with ACA. It's perfectly alright that none of the people in politics understand how to put up a website. What is unforgivable, is that they have no idea how to go about hiring competent people to put up their site.

      If they are incapable of attracting and hiring competent people to perform one job, what in the HELL makes anyone think that they can find competent people to perform another job?

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    64. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would look something like this.

    65. Re:As an outsider. by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

      "..they almost certainly spent a positively absurd amount of time(like a year or more) on nothing but QA."
      every agile managed project I have done had an absurd low number of bugs on releas. as in less then 20.
      And we are talking every where from 20K LoC to over a million LoC

      Did you know facebook rolls out changes to production every 11.5 seconds?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    66. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Here be your ponies.

    67. Re:As an outsider. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Okay, I'm going to have to re-re-consider my position, in light of that much more detailed investigative evidence.

    68. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You appear to rely a lot on anecdotes and "gut feelings". You may want to do some research.

      Frequent articles on CNN illustrate how few people have signed up for Obamacare. The stories also illustrate that most of those that have managed to sign up for Obamacare are the ones that need it the most - pre-existing conditions, sick, etc. - and that most of the people that have signed up have found the plans to be more expensive than what they had been offered in the past. Furthermore, it has been reported to make Obamacare plans competitive, the assumption has been made that many young, healthy people that otherwise do not have insurance are going to sign up for it. (Young, healthy people don't need to visit the doctor, hence health care costs go down for the insured group as a whole.)

      So that's the research. Now the opinion part:

      I'm extremely skeptical that enough "young, healthy" people are going to sign up for Obamacare to make the insurance offered by the exchanges/providers cheaper than insurance that can be obtained elsewhere. I'm inclined to agree with the GP on two counts, then: price controls raise prices of the thing controlled (citation: _The Wealth of Nations_ by Adam Smith has an excellent explanation of why this is), and not enough young people signing up to offset the cost of care for the extremely sick and elderly.

      Mind you, I'm actually for universal healthcare, but Obamacare is fatally flawed, in my opinion.

    69. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's a pretty good analogy. FOSS is sort of like the free insurance market. It provided low cost coverage for what people needed because it was developed in a distributed manner. The new regulations are like what would have happened if SCO had succeeded in strongarming the FOSS community into new licensing (Linux would have cost a lot more for no good reason).

    70. Re:As an outsider. by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      From what I understand, many people say that the project was underfunded for the scale of work being proposed. Also, as far as QA goes, most people understand that the software was released with late and insufficient 'system testing'. The conractor said they recommended not going live and they were pushed by officials in the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Personally, I think Sebelius and those other officials should resign.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    71. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 2

      A few things:

      1) The government does have an online presence. I don't know where this website falls on the scale of complexity compared to its other websites but most government agencies do indeed have some sort of website. This failure seems to be more of an outlier than the norm.

      2) I do expect the government to be better at regulating than giving out successful contracts for two reasons. First, the government lacks control over the contracted company and cannot directly force the company to be successful. Secondly, the government has a lot more experience regulating as it already regulates many industries.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    72. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Going from $500 deductible to $9000.00 deductible is pretty much "losing insurance".

      Aetna flat out told us this was because of the costs of ACA compliance. What costs those are, I have no idea, because my plan has paid out exactly NOTHING in the last year. We got one ACA "Well Baby" visit, but that would have been covered before. Everything else has been out-of-pocket.

      My old plan was AWESOME. My wife c-section cost us.... $500. Offspring #2 is due in March and it's going to cost me $9000.

      "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan" WAS A LIE.

    73. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think you mean to say, some of the state sites are not as big of a cluster fuck as the federal site, but I would never use the term "working well".

    74. Re:As an outsider. by larkost · · Score: 1

      How is the ACA/Obamacare price controlls? There are lots of bits to the law, but the two main parts of the law fall into three parts:

      1) Setting up marketplaces with clearly defined levels of service (so all of the comparable plans have to meet minimum specs). This takes away much of the complexity that has meant that average people can better judge what they are getting (so adding clarity, which the theory of capitolism takes as an assumption).

      2) Sets up a penalty for not having health care insurance. This is effctivly a requirement that everyone have health insurance.

      3) Requiring that all plans (on the marketplaces or not) cover certain things (e.g.: pregnancy, or mental health) and bars health insurance providers from discriminating based on pre-existing conditions or certain other attributes (e.g: being a woman).

      Nowhere here is there any price controls, rather it sets up a much more fair marketplace (i.e.: one more true to capitalist theory) than the deceptive an exclusionary one we have now.

      And your “9% additional tax” number seems to come out of nowhere. Since you mention Texas, you are going to have to explain how having 1-in-3 Texans with NO insurance coverage (so effectively NO access to real healthcare) is anything like a good situation. Is it going to cost money to correct that? Yes absolutely, but how much more work is that going to allow people to do once they are not sick? Every company I have ever worked for has beat the drum that a helathy workforce is in the interest of the bottom line. Are you saying that Texas can’t figure that out?

    75. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be the point though! If you can't kill it, make it so shitty that nobody will want it.

    76. Re:As an outsider. by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      You don't necessarily have to wait for the results of a law to be known after it has passed to know that you don't want that law.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    77. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LESS violence than professional wrestling? You must not be watching that closely.

    78. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1

      It's unrealistic to expect "no cost to you to comply" because the new minimum requirements provide better coverage than the ones that are being cancelled with the added benefit that the insurance company won't drop you the minute you need care because of some pre-existing condition you didn't know about. You are not paying more "just because Obamacare". If you cannot afford it, there are subsidies available to you to help cover the costs. The subsidy is available at my income level and I already have a comfortable amount of disposable income (my state is cheap to live in, though).

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    79. Re:As an outsider. by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

      It seems like a giant project that was hurried, kind of like a Windows Vista.

      FTFY:
      It seems like a giant project that was bastardized, kind of like a Microsoft standard.

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    80. Re:As an outsider. by CycleMan · · Score: 3, Funny

      "If you like your operating system, you can keep your operating system."

    81. Re:As an outsider. by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      $150million or whatever it cost for a broken website is hardly a bargain.

    82. Re:As an outsider. by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nice job illustrating the ACs point
      >We're doing ourselves a disservice by assuming everyone wants what we want

      >Ah, you want something that show you ponies, rainbows and stuff? I don't know, never felt the need for it.

    83. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This and the fact that Republicans blocked any increase in funding when red states balked at running their own exchange, instead drawing resources away from the federal project. The federal project received approximately 70mm in funding to develop a front-end site for each states exchange site. When requirements grew to cover the >15 red states who either refused to cooperate or created their own laws to block exchanges, federal lawmakers (read: Republicans) refused any additional funding.

      Contrast the 70mm against the 24 billion lost during the shutdown...

    84. Re:As an outsider. by dmbasso · · Score: 0

      Whoooosh!

      --
      `echo $[0x853204FA81]|tr 0-9 ionbsdeaml`@gmail.com
    85. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do not like green eggs and ham

    86. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be a parroting ass, Lendrick. One could easily then say you're parroting typical liberal crapology.

    87. Re:As an outsider. by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 0

      I understand why you didn't post under your own name, since everyone who's made claims like yours and has received help from people smarter than they are, has found that they're were being foolish and had completely failed to use the exchange.

      The propagandists at Fox are having trouble keeping their narrative on the ACA going when their upset guests just turn out to be clueless, and wind up happy when their fake-insurance is replaced with actual coverage with the help of people outside the ignorant conservative subculture.

    88. Re:As an outsider. by CQDX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How so? The law passed when the Democrats controlled both houses. Not a single R voted for it, nor were any needed to pass it, so the D's got what they wanted. In fact, R's were kept out of many of the planning meetings. The reason the law is bad is that it is much too complicated with many facets written as TBD at the HHS Secretary's discretion. The implementation is left to the amorphous bureaucracy. I don't think any of our representatives know what's in the law and none have read it cover-to-cover, at least not before voting it in. It's just too damn long.

    89. Re:As an outsider. by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      The right wants to use it to show the left is incompetent. The left seems to be using it to try to prove they don't blindly follow everything the president does and are blaming it all on him.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    90. Re:As an outsider. by QilessQi · · Score: 1

      If Obama is going to be embarrassed politically, I think it should be more for his domestic and international spying programs.

      It so much easier for the public to ignore things that don't have a visible, direct impact on their daily lives. Domestic and international spying are probably perceived as things that affect "other people". The ACA, on the other hand, is causing a massive flurry of activity as the populace struggles to determine whether they can stay on their current plan, what do if they can't, and how to sign up if they have no plan in the first place. So healthcare.gov and the state-level exchanges are very much in everyone's face.

      Given how polarized America is right now, an "embarrassment" to Obama is really just something which erodes his support among the Left and the Center, since getting any kind of approval from the Right is pretty much a lost cause* (ACA begin as a Republican program under Romney, remember). You would think that the issue of domestic spying would gain more traction among the Left, particularly those who remember how it was used against political activists in the Civil Rights era. I'm sure it does among some on the Left, but it seems like nothing compared to the discussions about the ACA's laws and implementation.

      * This works the other way around too, obviously.

    91. Re:As an outsider. by sqrt(2) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Government did allow you to keep your plan. It's Aetna that decided to screw you over and try to get you to blame someone else. It seems to have worked, because instead of directing your ire at the insurance industry's thieving, scheming, middle-men, you're angry at the administration trying to reform a horribly broken system in a political climate where it's virtually impossible to get anything done even when you're willing to adopt ideas from the other side as a compromise.

      And that's exactly what the individual mandate was--a huge compromise of liberal values to adopt a Republican idea. The fact that no Republican voted for it even then shows how spiteful and divisive they are.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    92. Re:As an outsider. by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 1

      Do you believe that people won't notice there's something seriously wrong with you when you say completely insane things like "Grand Dictator Baraq Hussein Sotero." That's pretty bad even for a Fox/hate-radio Conservative sheep.

    93. Re:As an outsider. by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Funny, I've been without health insurance and still was able to purchase healthcare. It was actually quite a bit cheaper than buying insurance.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    94. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      State websites only need to work for that individual state and its laws.

      Healthcare.gov needs to work with all fifty states.

    95. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing "lose their insurance" with "have their insurance changed to comply with Obamacare."

      The other hilarious thing is prices are actually going down for decent care. It's maybe been a decade at least a decade since I've seen prices remain flat, let alone go down. 10-20% increases from year to year have been par for the course for good plans.

      Every single employee in the small business I work for will get a reduced price on insurance this year, we have more plan options now, and there's always the exchanges if we think we can do better.

      It's not all roses, across the board insurance companies are getting draconian with their formularies and the few insurances that didn't require any co-pay or deductible labs are now charging the patient some of those costs.

      Health HSAs still exist and are legal, the only low cost options that disappeared entirely were basically scams and allowed selfish people to socialize their risk of something really bad happening out on the rest of us (and if they're for that they should be for single payer, so we can all do it).

    96. Re:As an outsider. by roccomaglio · · Score: 1

      From the same article. Because "there are very strict regulations on sole-source contracts," an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity agreement makes it easier for the government to avoid running afoul of those requirements, said Sajeev Malaveetil, a director at the Berkeley Research Group, a procurement consultant. IT work is particularly suited to imprecise, open-ended contracts. "Agencies know that at some point they'll need IT services or system implementation," Malaveetil said. "ID/IQ contracts can often be for five or 10 years: the agency just keeps issuing delivery task orders, which fall under the base language of the contract." No other IT contractors have come forward to say they, too, bid on the contract to build Healthcare.gov.

    97. Re:As an outsider. by Chelloveck · · Score: 1

      I agree that Obamacare is bad economics, and I have the opinion that it was rammed down our throats by a Socialist mob,

      That's funny. I have the opinion that Obamacare is bad because it's nowhere near socialist enough. It's trying to take the basically socialistic concept of spreading financial burden over a nationwide population and twist it to fit the mold of the mythical "free market". A single-payer system would have been much better. IMHO. Well, better for everyone except the insurance industry and the lawyers, that is.

      At this point I'm so fed up with politicians I think they should all be fired for not focusing on solutions that work for everybody, or at least almost everybody.

      At least this we can agree on!

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    98. Re:As an outsider. by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Nah, it's just that American politicos are wimps. Plenty of parliaments around the world have brawls, and even in the good old days, senators were known to beat down opponents.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    99. Re:As an outsider. by nbauman · · Score: 4, Informative

      The reason the law is so complex is that American health policy is made not by a process of examining the options rationally and picking out the best ones, but by a process of political compromise,

      If we looked around the world for health care systems that are working (in terms of price, quality and service), we would probably pick something like the Canadian single payer system.

      Instead, we had to accommodate every powerful interest group, campaign contributor, and free-market ideologue. Why do we need a private insurance industry? We don't, they just have a good lobby.

      The free market health care system doesn't work unless you're willing to let people die when they can't afford health care. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1312793 So how do the right-wingers get out of that? They come up with a system of subsidies (which they call tax refunds). In order to figure out who "deserves" to get what subsidy, they have to examine every applicant's income, expenses, and circumstances and apply arbitrary formulas.

      Because it incorporates tax payments and other grants, you have a system which is as complicated as the entire tax system and a welfare application combined.

      Then you have to please these economic theorists who believe (despite 40 years of evidence) that if people have to pay co-payments, they'll be wiser medical consumers. So you've just made a simple system complex. Then you have to provide "choice" of silver, gold, platinum and lead policies, so you have to do the same thing four times over.

      By the time you've finished compromising with every interest group, you have an enormously complicated health care financing system, which may not even be precisely designed or logically consistent. So when you try to write code, you have to go back and clarify the policy that you're implementing in code.

      Compare that to the Canadian system: You hand your Canadian Medicare card to the receptionist, and she swipes it. The government pays for it.

    100. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used mod points in section which are now wasted, but it was worthwhile to correct this post. The Obama Administration only reviewed only a single bid for the Obamacare website http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/2537194. Whether that constitutes a no bid contract can be argued, but that is usually what is meant by that phrase. If you do not consider that a no bid contract then Halliburton was not awarded a no bid contract in Iraq. Calling the statement that this is a no-bid contract a myth is at best disingenuous.

      Those are entirely different unless you're contending there were multiple bids that complied with the RFC and the administration refused to consider them (rejection bids from companies that didn't comply is standard practice, though they are sometimes encouraged to resubmit if they can comply). Having open bids and only one "bidder" is actually different than sole source/no bid.

    101. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it's like saying that you can't even buy a car because the website is broken, that the car you have is being taken away and if you don't work this out by a deadline you will have to pay a fine. But thanks for the asshat point of view and the asshats that modded you up

    102. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry to say, but this is patently wrong. ACA (Obamacare) IS the democrat compromise - the democrat party base were pushing for a single-payer system (like most of the rest of civilised world has). After meetings with republicans (such as the Heritage Foundation), health-interest groups, etc, the ACA compromise was pushed through.

      If the ACA didn't have any republican input, then what's the republican alternative?

      (What worries me, as an outsider, is the fact that people post comments like your's without actually realising that they're parroting nonsense).

    103. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The R's were repeatedly invited to help write the law, and the D's were more than willing to compromise. The only contribution the R's were willing to make was, "kill the whole thing".

      When R's behaved like spoiled children, unwilling to compromise, the adults had to press on.

    104. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1

      There are two things that guarantee that the young and health people will sign up. First, anyone under 26 can stay on their parents' plans. Which means that their parents are paying for the "Employee + Family" plan rather than the "Employee + Spouse" plan. Secondly, the penalty for refusing to sign up starts off small but will rise to meet the cost of health insurance. This means that you really have two choices: pay money and get nothing or pay money and get health coverage.

      Also, I'm not sure why you and GP call Obamacare a price control. It's not, at least not compared to say rent controlling in big cities. The closest thing to a price control in the law is that the insurance companies may not spend more than 20% of the premium income on administrative costs.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    105. Re:As an outsider. by nbauman · · Score: 1

      "a badly conceived law could be a reason for the poor performance of the site if it puts overly burdensome constraints on the system."
      the law is a set of rules to apply. Nothing more. That is no reason for broken code. If you are talking about adding a second or three to a responce, you would be right.

      The law is not necessarily a logical or consistent system.

      If you had to write a billing system for the Canadian health care system, it would be easy. You just pay everything that's covered.

      If you have to write a billing system for the American health care system, it's complicated. Different people have different levels of subsidy, deductibles, co-payments, eligibility, etc. Is psychotherapy covered? Is chiropractic covered? For how long? It depends on the state. When somebody goes to the hospital, it can take a month for them to figure out their bills and reconcile the mistakes. If you can't figure out the actual charges by hand, how can you write a program to do it automatically?

    106. Re:As an outsider. by roccomaglio · · Score: 1

      What is being claimed here is that there was bidding for the contract that allowed CGI Federal to sell to the Government. This is basically a vehicle used to purchase services. CGI Federal was awarded a contract that allows them to sell things (IT services) to the government. The site was started on this contract without rebidding. When the extension in 2011 was bid to 4 provides CGI Federal reported at the time of the extension that it had received $55.7 million for the first year's work to build Healthcare.gov. So there were bidders to do more work on the site. The original 55.7 million does not appear to have been bid. So yes this was a no bid contract. Once they had built 55.7 million worth of the site they then put it out to bid and the company CGI Federal already building it won.

    107. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really went there. I hope your insurance covers the injury to your spine caused by twisting yourself into a pretzel to claim that the problems with the website prove lack of competence to create a bill to improve health insurance.

      It's amazing that you would not only deceive yourself, you went ahead and displayed that self-deception to the world.

    108. Re:As an outsider. by _xeno_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Government did allow you to keep your plan.

      No, no it doesn't. Grandfathered in plans were not allowed to change at all since 2011, and that simply is never going to happen over three years. Change the doctors covered under the plan? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in. Adjust costs due to inflation? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in. Increase coverage? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in.

      Obamacare was written in such a way to guarantee these plans would be dropped. Period. Obama knew you weren't going to be able to keep your plans. Period.

      You can't blame the insurance companies for this. There was no way they were ever going to be able to actually meet the requirements to grandfather in plans, if for no other reason than simple inflation.

      And that's exactly what the individual mandate was--a huge compromise of liberal values to adopt a Republican idea. The fact that no Republican voted for it even then shows how spiteful and divisive they are.

      Or that they looked at Massachusetts, saw that Romney's attempt at implementing it didn't work, and didn't want to send the nation down the same path. It's not hard to see that Obamacare doesn't and never will work. The HealthCare.gov debacle is proof enough of that.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    109. Re:As an outsider. by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      If you're ignorant, you could say that since he didn't actually bring up any points other than to state that the state systems are passible.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    110. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1

      This is not a response to you, because I won't dignify your name-calling with the satisfaction of having me take you seriously, Mr. Troll. This is a comment to anyone who might think you have a point (you don't).

      The car is also available at your local dealership, by phone, or a good-old fashioned google search to get it direct from the manufacturer's website. Still, to most people it won't matter because their employers provide them with a car already.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    111. Re:As an outsider. by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      My insurance will cost 39% more next year for the same policy. More money coming out of my pocket to fund this clusterfuck.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    112. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh come off it. Part-time and temp jobs have been on the increase, while full-time work has been on the decline, for a decade or more. It has nothing to do with Obamacare. Take it away, the trend will continue.

      Automation is eroding the need for jobs. Surplus of things is eroding the need for jobs.

      "I'm 65 years old..."

      That explains the completely illogical, fear based arguments. I'm surprised you didn't blame subversives and commies.

    113. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but the problem is because of the new website rollout, your old car is going to be taken away. (gas guzzler, smog, etc)
      And no, you can't take the bus legally (medicare/destitute programs) and only rich people can afford a taxi (luxury healthcare plans). And you're too old (over 30) to ride a bike (catastrophic insurance) while you're waiting for the car website to work.

    114. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Raise insurance costs on average" isn't accurate. It raises insurance costs among those who used to pay nothing at all or paid very little for what were basically scam coverage and provides better care for the increased cost to them and also pays a subsidy to those who were paying little because they couldn't afford it.

      The average cost (that is including everyone in the country) will actually go down because the risk of needing healthcare will be spread across a wider pool of people, which is how insurance works.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    115. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please articulate what that bad idea is, in its most basic form.

    116. Re:As an outsider. by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      Where does the subsidy money come from?

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    117. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Didn't they also have to hurry on passing it?

      Scott Brown of Massachusetts won a special election after Senator Kennedy passed away. He would have been a no vote, and likely the deciding factor in enforcing a filibuster in the Senate (41st, thus preventing 60 votes for cloture). As a result, Democrats had to resort to chicanery and other methods to stuff the turkey prior to him taking his seat.

    118. Re:As an outsider. by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Me too. What I discovered was that, feeling like it was actually my computer, I wanted it to behave according to my wants instead of someone else's. Linux is easier to customize. It's not for everyone. But I've also had my share of Windows nightmares (back when) that cost me days and days (around the time I got my first 3D card). It was more frustrating than anything Linux ever threw my way. But most people will sit back and just take whatever MS or Apple gives them and deal with it... you see more backlash with something like Ubuntu switching to Unity because Linux users are accustomed to having control.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    119. Re:As an outsider. by Crimey+McBiggles · · Score: 1

      Ummm... not all of it is. In fact, we'll have to wait until 2017 for the entirety of the ACA to come into effect. Asshole.

      --
      Crimey
    120. Re:As an outsider. by ArchieBunker · · Score: 0

      I work for a small company and my UPMC insurance is going up 39% next year. I think you are full of shit.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    121. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Occam's razor.

      The idea could have been so fscking stupid that the Repubs didn't want a part of it, and didn't want it shoved down the throats of their constituents.

      But hey, if you want an omelet, you need to break a few eggs. Still waiting for that omelet, though.

    122. Re:As an outsider. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      How about letting everyone kill himself in the way he prefers? It's not like we got too many jobs and not enough people, ya know?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    123. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much did linux cost you, again? There's a difference there.

      OK Obamacare passed 3 years ago. What was Linux like after just 3 years of development? I'm being really generous here and assuming that web site development started the day the law was signed.

    124. Re:As an outsider. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      And a pretty good job they did at it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    125. Re:As an outsider. by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      So the insurance companies are cancelling people policies and we're blaming it on the law? Why don't they just upgrade the policies to meet the minimum requirements and not cancel the policies? To me that seems more like the insurance companies are being assholes more than anything. They have the option to do the right thing but are instead doing the most profitable thing. Why doesn't this vilify the insurance companies instead of the law since the insurance companies are the ones being dicks about it?

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    126. Re:As an outsider. by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      That may be true, but software development is partly the art of braking down the project into simpler parts, each of which should already have had an evolved solution that could have been used or adapted. [nameless talk show host] had some guys on his show claiming they could have done the healthcare website in 30 days. They're lying, because they don't know what was involved on the back end; a lot of the problems stemmed from interfacing with other government websites and databases.... but the amount of time they were given should have given them enough time to build AND test the hell out of it, and the amount of money spent is inexcusable.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    127. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm.

      Police: Everyone pays, everyone benefits
      Fire Departments: Everyone pays, everyone benefits
      Health care: ?

      Do you want people losing their homes because they (or their neighbour) couldn't afford to buy a subscription to the fire department?
      Do you want the police responding only to crimes affecting people who have 'contributed' to their widows-and-orphans fund?
      Do you want people to die if they can't afford health insurance, or if they can't be insured because of a 'pre-existing condition'?

      Someone said they have the right to buy crappy insurance (= will evaporate if they ever get really sick), if they want to. Oh yeah, *I* want that 'right'. People who buy crappy insurance are betting their lives that they don't get sick. It's kind of like... not having insurance at all.

      Is it possible to have a fair market in health care? For that, you need knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured buyers (and sellers). If your health and ultimately the life of you and your loved ones is on the line, I would say.... no.

      Obama's mom died of cancer, and near the end, she ran out of money for medical expenses that were called a 'preexisting condition'. It's a helluva way to die, isn't it? It's his personal motivation for all of this, a desire to do something, anything, that would have saved his mom; if he can't save her, then at least he can save other people's moms. If the President of the United States can't even do that, then what's the point?

    128. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      This is quite a logical twisting of the facts.

      "There was no way they were ever going to be able to actually meet the requirements to grandfather in plans, if for no other reason than simple inflation."

      If the companies couldn't upgrade the policies, how are they even able to offer them in the first place? The simple answer is that they could, but they won't because that won't make you angry at the administration.

    129. Re:As an outsider. by digitalPhant0m · · Score: 1

      ... so obviously it will raise insurance costs on average. That's the cost.

      ... or going broke and pushing the costs on to the rest of us.

      Glad to see both sides of your mouth are working.

    130. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're correct, you shouldn't. The USASpending.gov link in the article shows fairly clearly that this is for a number of contracts, some of which preceded PPACA. The article on digitaltrends was also modified to reflect (slightly) more accurate numbers.

      I correct people when they use Wikipedia as a source. I'd suggest moving someone to a different department or termination if they used Slashdot as a reliable source...

    131. Re:As an outsider. by Tanktalus · · Score: 2

      (*) unless it gets cancelled on you, forcing you to buy a more expensive, more comprehensive version with features you neither want nor can afford.

    132. Re:As an outsider. by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, GP is the reason we're starting to see a resurgence of poor laws and workhouses. People keep voting in their oppressors because they think the free market will eventually give them a seat at the table with the kings if you just work hard enough.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    133. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you should look at plan options, and not just blithely take the one Aetna recommends as a replacement to whatever non-compliant plan you have now. Your state may be different, but I didn't even see plans available with deductibles as high as $9k, here - topped out around $6k.

      Or are you saying that they raised your deductible by $8500 in 2013, before the ACA "essential health benefits" coverage rules kicked in?

      Clearly, Obama's mouth is writing checks his organization can't keep - from "close Gitmo" and "red lines" to "keep your crappy, potentially fraudulent, health insurance" - but it's not like anyone expects a politician to follow the letter of his rhetoric.

    134. Re:As an outsider. by roccomaglio · · Score: 1

      The first 55.7 million spent on the Obamacare site was purchased from CGI Federal without bidding. The contract that CGI Federal won (31 bidders) was simply an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity agreement. This means that the government can buy things from you. Most federal contractors have one of these. The administration then purchased 55.7 million on this contract without bidding it out. There was probably a dollar limit that caused them to have to do an open bidding. The government had already spent 55.7 million with CGI Federal when they bid out the contract extension specifically to build the Obamacare site. Most companies do not bid on these extensions because they go to the incumbent unless the Government is unhappy with them. Who else is better positioned to extend code and provide fixes than the company that wrote the first 55.7 million of the code.

    135. Re:As an outsider. by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      That's part of why these idiots creeping out of the woodwork saying "I could have built it in 30 days" are lying - they have no idea what the behind the scenes complexity is, and I understand it's quite complicated. On the other hand, the tax code is even worse, yet you can do your taxes online. So it's not the law, it's a bunch of people being handed hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars and buying booze and hookers instead of working. In the time they've had, even given how complex, there's no excuse to not have a working site that's been tested the hell out of.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    136. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The Republicans were excluded from writing the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare). The law was not written in committee, it was created in partisan meetings"

      The republicans were not excluded, they refused to participate.

      "They did it this way so they did not have to make any compromises to Republicans, they only needed to make compromises with Democrats to pass the law."

      False. The democrats wanted a single payer system. "Obamacare" was specifically modeled after "Romneycare" to gain republican support. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/mar/20/romneycare-and-obamacare-can-you-tell-difference/

      If republicans want to have a say, they will need to 1) win some elections and 2) participate in cooperation

    137. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1

      Lucky for you, you can still buy a car over the phone or by walking down to the local car dealership.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    138. Re:As an outsider. by operagost · · Score: 1

      They had 3.5 years. That's only a hurry in geological terms.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    139. Re:As an outsider. by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      That depends very much on what kind of health care you need.

      This is something people persistently misunderstand. Insurance doesn't decrease your average expected costs. It increases them. It's value is that it also smoothes them.

      Imagine a population of 1000 people. The only disease is cancer. One person, on average, gets it every year. It costs $250,000 to treat. The average cost of health care, then, is $250. Everyone can choose to be uninsured, and assuming that one person doesn't have $250,000 lying around, one person drops dead every year.

      If everyone is insured, then they have to kick in $250/year to cover the predicted cost of treatment. Oh, but there's overhead costs. Employees of the insurance company don't work for free. Records have to be kept, etc. Also, no one is going to bother to run an insurance company if there isn't some profit in it, so figure really everyone kicks in $300 or so.

      You're trading an unlikely, but ruinous cost for a certain but bearable cost.

    140. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Untrue... many of the pieces of the law are Republican pieces. And the Democrats did NOT have a super majority in the Senate.

    141. Re:As an outsider. by roccomaglio · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Having open bids and only one "bidder" is actually different than sole source/no bid.

      I would say yes and no. You can always write a contract such that there can only be one bidder. You just add restrictions that no one else can meet. Must have thousands of hours in experience building government exchanges would be a good choice.

    142. Re:As an outsider. by SecurityGuy · · Score: 2

      Also, this is great: "Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love."

      I'm going to use that.

    143. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since you mention Texas, you are going to have to explain how having 1-in-3 Texans with NO insurance coverage (so effectively NO access to real healthcare) is anything like a good situation.

      Those people DO have access to healthcare. They can show up to any hospital and receive essential or lifesaving care without consideration for their ability to pay. That's the law, now. Everyone gets enough treatment to stabilize their condition, and it's the hospital's problem how to pay for it.

      Of course, they pay for it by passing it on to the remaining 2-in-3 Texans through the extremely opaque mechanism of inflating their charges by a number they hope will let them cover the cost of non-payment. Sure, that means that everyone with insurance in Texas is paying 50% more than their own cost of care, but we're generally happy to pay 50% inflated prices to save 9% taxes.

    144. Re:As an outsider. by operagost · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Instead, we had to accommodate every powerful interest group, campaign contributor, and free-market ideologue.

      There are zero free-market ideologues in the Democratic Party. Zero. And the ACA was passed without a singe Republican vote.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    145. Re:As an outsider. by aix+tom · · Score: 1

      We're doing ourselves a disservice by assuming everyone wants what we want.

      Don't worry, that's something Microsoft seems to have learned from us Linux folks.

      The font smoothing in IE 10 causes headaches for you and your users and you want to turn that crappy "ClearType" of?
      No. Not gonna happen. "We are right any you are all wrong!!"

      Funny thing is, there the difference is not so much "FOSS" vs. "Proprietary", it's "Configurable" against "Locked Down". These days there seems to be a pretty mix-and-match going. A lot of FOSS moving to the "Locked Down" model, too, while on the other hand there is also a lot of configurable proprietary software around.

    146. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a price floor the minimum wage creates unemployment. As hourly pay drops companies can hire more workers to do things that otherwise don't make sense. For example a person to pump gas. A service that might pay for itself at if the attendant is paid $2 and hour. At $8 an hour the company for goes that service. Now can you live on $2 an hour no way and how many takers would the company have? No idea. It could work for a high school student as a part time job.

      Bad as for not all price controls are bad, I disagree. You are forcing your view of things on others based on what you see as proper. If a person is willing to work for a wage why should you be able to tell them no?

    147. Re:As an outsider. by JWW · · Score: 2

      I do expect the government to be better at regulating than giving out successful contracts for two reasons. First, the government lacks control over the contracted company and cannot directly force the company to be successful. Secondly, the government has a lot more experience regulating as it already regulates many industries.

      Wow, those must be some pretty dark rose colored glasses you have on. The list of regulation that government has done extremely poorly is incredibly long.

      I'll just give you three examples, copyright, the patent system, and prohibition. Three examples of absolutely abysmal, destructive outcomes from gov't regulation. Sure patents and copyright used to be sensible, but the more experience that gov't got in regulating them, the worse they got. However, prohibition was a debacle from the moment they started it, and its side effects still impact us to this day.

    148. Re:As an outsider. by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't the website, the problem is the cluster fuck of a law they passed.

      That's like saying you're unable to write a computer program that loses at Chess.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    149. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sorry to say, but this is patently wrong. ACA is THE Democrat legislation that was presented - The Democrat party base DID push that. SOME demanded a single-payer system, many did NOT.

      The meetings with Republicans went like this:

      Republicans: "We'd like to see X, Y and Z"
      Obama: "No, because elections have consequences"

      And they pushed the legislation that they could get passed with ONLY their Democrat votes.

      What really worries me is that, as you're an outsider, you post comments like yours which actually IS parroting nonsense because we in the US believe in this thing called individuality over socialized medicine where the rest of the world has turned their governments and their entire lives into nothing more than utopian daycare centers.

    150. Re:As an outsider. by operagost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They weren't being screwed before. Many of these people had preexisting conditions that were being taken care of for a reasonable cost. Now, their plans are priced for things like gynecological exams for men and prostate exams for women. People treating their cancer are either going to go broke, rely on us to cover the cost, or simply die (plus, be taxed for the privilege). Is that an improvement?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    151. Re:As an outsider. by lgw · · Score: 1

      Most of the medical research in the world happens in America. Of course care is more expensive here. Of course care will be cheaper when we inevitably stop paying for that technological advancement. Cheaper short term.

      Long term technology is everything for price, and if we were motivated by more than short-term greed, we'd favor whatever system produced the best technological progress, rather than the cheapest care this decade.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    152. Re:As an outsider. by _xeno_ · · Score: 2

      If the companies couldn't upgrade the policies, how are they even able to offer them in the first place? The simple answer is that they could, but they won't because that won't make you angry at the administration.

      Huh? They were able to offer them originally because Obamacare wasn't in force. Obamacare only kills them starting in 2014, which is why people are getting the cancellation letters now.

      The only plans Obamacare allows to be grandfathered in are those that were made before 2011 that have never changed. That simply was never going to happen, inflation guarantees that details about the plan must change over time, and as soon as the insurance company changes the plan, it can no longer be grandfathered in under Obamacare.

      Basically, the rules for being grandfathered in under Obamacare were written explicitly to guarantee that no one would be able to keep the plans that Obamacare made illegal, while being sold as "you will be able to keep your plan, period." Obama was lying, period.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    153. Re:As an outsider. by roccomaglio · · Score: 1

      Halliburton was a competatively bid contract for rebuilding. In fact, it is very similar, so either that contract was not no-bid or this contract was no bid. http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/207451/bush-iraq-scandal-wasnt/byron-york

    154. Re:As an outsider. by Terwin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Government did allow you to keep your plan. It's Aetna that decided to screw you over and try to get you to blame someone else. It seems to have worked, because instead of directing your ire at the insurance industry's thieving, scheming, middle-men, you're angry at the administration trying to reform a horribly broken system in a political climate where it's virtually impossible to get anything done even when you're willing to adopt ideas from the other side as a compromise.

      Actually, the Health and Human Services department is empowered to make rules that *all* healthcare plans must obey, including grandfathered ones.

      So, you can only grandfather a plan if:
      A) it never changes, not even to account for inflation
      B) it obeys all new regulations put out by the Health and Human Services department for health insurance.

      The only exception is plans that are part of a collective bargaining agreement(aka unions), those plans are allowed to change without losing grandfathered status so long as the changes are to make it come into agreement with HHS regulations.

      And let me tell you, no plan I have ever had will provide female oral contraceptives without a co-pay, so no plan I have ever had could be grandfathered under the current rules.

    155. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Ahh yes... the Democrats were more than willing to compromise.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/25/AR2010102502408.html

      "The decline of the Obama presidency can be traced to a meeting at the White House just three days after the inauguration, when the new president gathered congressional leaders of both parties to discuss his proposed economic stimulus. House Republican Whip Eric Cantor gave President Obama a list of modest proposals for the bill. Obama said he would consider the GOP ideas, but told the assembled Republicans that "elections have consequences" and "I won." Backed by the largest congressional majorities in decades, the president was not terribly interested in giving ground to his vanquished adversaries. "

    156. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh, I see, you still think this has something to do with providing healthcare. Allow me to correct your thinking, this law doesn't have jack shit to do with healthcare and EVERYTHING to do with lining the pockets of Insurance Companies and Bureaucrats. Our previous healthcare system wasn't broken, but our Health Insurance Industry has been a major problem for decades. If we really wanted to improve health care we would have outlawed insurance, not force everyone to buy it. Insurance is nothing more than legalized gambling that you only "win" when you lose.

    157. Re:As an outsider. by operagost · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty tired of cretins like you holding the Dissembler in Chief's water. He lied to get votes. There would have been political repercussions if he'd admitted that many plans would be cancelled anyway because NO CHANGES WHATSOEVER would be allowed in order to have them grandfathered in. That's absurd, when every year our costs go up just because of inflation. He said, "you can keep your plan. PERIOD" when he should have said, "ASTERISK".

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    158. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many laws raise no revenue. Said laws are not necessarily broken.
      The origination piece is interesting... seems to happen a lot with stuff... but there must be some sort of technicality. Still doesn't make the law itself broken. What makes health care different than any other product, is that everyone, at some point, uses it.
      Government forces you to buy auto insurance if you own a car... so again.. not a new concept.
      The limited government question has already been answered by the courts. Even so, people tend to take an extreme view on that one for laws they don't like. And, I'm sure there will always be some back and forth.

      Calling John Roberts an activitist is an interesting qualification of him. His ruling, considering how he usually rules on such things, was definitely a surprise, especially considering the poor job arguing the government case.

    159. Re:As an outsider. by operagost · · Score: 1

      If you cannot afford it, there are subsidies available to you to help cover the costs. The subsidy is available at my income level

      ... but not everyone's. It's because of uninformed, selfish fools like you that we're stuck with this mess.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    160. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The compromise was between far left Democrats and center left Democrats, the Republicans never entered into it. At no point were the Dems who were pushing for this courting or expecting Republican votes, hence the procedural trickery they did in the Senate to pass it, but they did require the blue dogs and other center left Dems.

      As for the Republican alternative, it was not to pass an omnibus bill which almost never leads to good results, but to pass separate bills to correct flaws in the system in a more piecemeal and less painful way; a method that would make it easier to make corrections as they arose as well as ensure a better understanding of each individual bill and it's impacts.

      They wanted to remove restrictions on cross border insurance purchases (to allow for more competition), they proposed allowing individuals to claim the same deductions as businesses to try and break the employer based system, there was also support for legislation to remove lifetime limits and help people with preexisting conditions and even for leaving your adult kids on your family plan (under certain conditions). Their main issue was that because these were separate proposal and not a blanket catch all bill, people like you either through ignorance (which could be due to the lack of media coverage of these proposals) or simple denial, continually state they had no alternative.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    161. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound upset that the country isn't run like a dictatorship and instead the PEOPLE have a voice in how things are done.

      Hint: If you can't get the large majority of people to agree with your idea, the federal government shouldn't be doing it. When you ignore that hint you get what we have here, a lot of people (dare I say the majority) were happy with what they had and you decide to take it away and claim they shouldn't be allowed to say anything about it.

    162. Re:As an outsider. by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Millions of people who had insurance that worked for them are discovering that that plan is gone, and the cheapest plan on the exchange costs twice as much, has deductibles far higher, and coverers a smaller network of doctors. This is a very common story.

      Something is deeply wrong here the entire premise here was that normal people could find a better plan on the exchange, and if they didn't they could keep the plan they had. Both claims were lies, and predictably so: the ACA is designed to push healthcare costs for the old and sick onto the young and healthy, so everyone young and healthy must, by design, pay a lot more to make the system work.

      You high UID and claims of "fake insurance" make it pretty obvious you're a paid astroturfer. We don't like your sort here. Please go away.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    163. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So much FUD

    164. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes. I forgot to mention: "Look over there!"

    165. Re:As an outsider. by operagost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Should over three years been enough time to build it?

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      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    166. Re:As an outsider. by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      That's a valid point about the other sites. And actually, I believe I heard it from an argument provided by democrats or system builders as to why it wasn't working. I haven't looked in to it enough to see if it makes sense, but one of the arguments I have heard was that the problems were due to the complexity of the law and the requirements that were put on them by the government. I was only attempting to clarify how the AC OP's comment could make sense, not trying to claim it as fact or even personal belief. I thankfully have a great employer provided health plan that only went up in cost by 13% for 2014 after ACA took effect, so I'm not really worried about the exchange.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    167. Re:As an outsider. by operagost · · Score: 1

      You can't blame the law until it actually goes into effect and we see the results

      Thanks, Nancy "We have to pass the bill so you can see what is in it" Pelosi.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    168. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 2

      And by repeatedly invited you actually mean, invited on TV but never actually allowed into the meetings. In fact few legislators of either side were actually involved in writing this law (except for inserting special exemptions) as it was mostly written by healthcare company insiders and lobbyists.

      Even years later most politicians have no idea what is or is not part of the ACA.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    169. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "The democrats wanted a single payer system."

      False. The Democrats passed the legislation they wrote by themselves for themselves because it was the only legislation they could pass AMONGST themselves.

      And the Republicans did win some elections when they retook the house in 2010 and trying to slow down this monstrosity.

    170. Re:As an outsider. by Tanktalus · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're entertainingly deluded if you think Canada is a single-payer system.

      We have a tiered healthcare system, it's just that most people don't seem to acknowledge it.

      I have partial coverage from my province. I have partial coverage from my employer. And I cover the rest out of pocket.

      My mother-in-law, having turned 65, but is still working, has even more payers: the province, her employer's health care coverage, the provincially-mandated health care coverage (different pocket, not sure if she pays for it or not), and then the rest out of pocket.

      There are health-related items that are fully covered by provincial plans, some that are partially covered, and many that are not covered at all. For the last two categories, private health insurance can cover all, some, or none of the extra costs. If you have multiple health insurance providers (e.g., two different employers for a household, usually they cover the employee and their spouse and kids, so you have two insurances covering the household), there is some sort of duking it out for who covers what, but, in the end, you usually end up with the higher percentage of the choices being covered somehow. And then, whatever is left, is your responsibility.

      I go to the doctor with a cold. The province pays the doctor for my visit. He wrongly prescribes me some antibiotics. I go to the pharmacy, get the pills. The province doesn't pay for any of that (though they play a role in regulating the drug costs). My employer's health insurance pays some of the drug cost (the percentage widely varies on which drug it is) and none of the pharmacy fees (other insurances do pay for pharmacy fees). I then pay the rest, never less than 10% due to the plan I have with work.

      If I then spend more than a certain percentage of my pre-tax income on health expenses, I can submit them against my taxes for a further refund, though I've never hit that amount, personally. I'm sure lower incomes could easily hit that.

      If I go to the optometrist's, the province pays nothing for my visit, but all of my children's visits as they're all under 18 years of age. I submit to my employer's health insurance for my visit and any and all prescription eye wear that results, including for my children.

      If you cannot get health insurance from your employer, or you cannot afford to get insurance on your own (here in Alberta, there is a cheap provincial-run insurance available for purchase, not sure about other provinces, and no idea what kind of coverage it gets you), you get to pay full costs for chiropractic and vision care. Dental visits are also not covered, or any orthodontic care. If you're poor, you're going to be stuck with bad eyes and bad teeth. Even in Canada. Because you're in the bottom tier of health care. Which itself is because we have tiered healthcare.

      Sure, emergency access is paid for. But same in the US - effectively. If you can't afford it in the US, the hospitals eventually absorb the cost, by law. In Canada, the government absorbs it. However, if you can't produce your healthcare card, you're still responsible to pay for it - tourists and out-of-province patients don't get free rides. (However, when I was in Toronto a couple months ago, had I required health care during that time, my home province would have covered the costs same as if I were at home. Which, again, means not everything is covered.)

    171. Re: As an outsider. by Bruha · · Score: 0

      Neither is a 79 billion broken fighter program. No outrage there though.

    172. Re:As an outsider. by operagost · · Score: 1

      I'd say it's an embarrassment when everyone from the Country Music Awards to Saturday Night Live is lampooning it.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    173. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The Government did allow you to keep your plan"
      No they didn't. The Government imposed the criteria that deprecates the old policies.

    174. Re:As an outsider. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      It cant be, the contractor they hired barely can code a website let alone one that needs to be load balanced and handle an entire nation as a portal for the healthcare. It will not be fixed until they hire the right company to do it, and it's not going to be the lowest bidder.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    175. Re:As an outsider. by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      And your investment in research and cooperation between private entities becomes a joke because with a single payer, cooperation is participating in your own death. If there is only one customer, they are going to buy all their drugs and such from the same place. This means removes the room for cooperation entirely. Funding for research then has to be entirely on the government (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but the winner take all kind of situation inevitably leads towards monopolies and those are bad for costs.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    176. Re:As an outsider. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Agreed, that is why we use Linux for all our mission critical servers that make us money. Time is money and we dont have time to screw around with Windows and it's limitations.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    177. Re:As an outsider. by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

      You mean the way Republicans wrote laws an administration or two back?

    178. Re:As an outsider. by whistlingtony · · Score: 1

      Uhhmm...

      "raises no revenue"
      Medical device tax? Increased taxes on folks over.. what was it? 200k? 250k? Fail. Even if it didn't raise revenue, which it obviously does, why is that a sign of a broken law? Fail again.

      "retitled bill"
      I hadn't heard that. I'll look into it.

      " force people to hand money to private companies" " 238 years ago"
      Do you have car insurance? Did that start 238 years ago? I suppose that's a reference to the start of our country, but that was over high taxes and crappy representation, not being forced to buy something from the East India Trading Company. Fail on every account.

      " violates ones privacy" " 9th Amendment"
      I'm no constitutional lawyer, but.... I don't think so man. If you don't like the law, ok, but don't pretend that being forced to buy insurance as a member of a giant pool has anything to do with violating your privacy. Fail.

      So, basically, all the points you raised are completely Fail.

    179. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Republicans were excluded from writing the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare). The law was not written in committee, it was created in partisan meetings. This was possible because Democrats controlled the house, senate, and the presidency. They also had a super majority in the Senate so they did not need a single Republican vote. They did it this way so they did not have to make any compromises to Republicans, they only needed to make compromises with Democrats to pass the law.

      And.. But.. So.. Therefore...?

      The Representative legislature in the US is desigend to ensure that the States are all represented, not any particular set of poltitcal parties.

      I dare say the Affordable car act was also passed without need to compromise to the National Socialist party, the Comunist party, the Pirate party, The WIGS party, etc.

      If teh Republic party is unable to win a signifigant amount of representation than they aren't important enough to warrant compromises.

    180. Re:As an outsider. by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Funny

      All the paint fell off of my honda because of a SQL injection attack.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    181. Re:As an outsider. by ranton · · Score: 1

      I am not the original poster, but my understanding is that a lot of the complexity of the site comes from a draconianly complex law that simply can't easily be implemented officially.

      That is absolutely false. Tax preparation software that actually works does exist, and no one can claim our tax code is simple. I think it is safe to say that anything which can be written into law can be written into software. It may be very complex and hard to write software, but I guess that is why they spent $150-300 million (depending on which source you believe).

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    182. Re:As an outsider. by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Funny

      News flash, ALL insurance is there to screw you when you need it. Blue Cross and Blue Shield tried to DENY coverage of my daughter being born as a "unreported pre existing illness"

      Insurance companies have entire departments designed to find ways of screwing the payer.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    183. Re:As an outsider. by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Unicorns, Leprechauns, and Cthulhu...

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    184. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 1

      So you'd rather your company change your plan, without consulting you, to now include additional requirements that in most cases mean significant cost increases, coverage shrinkage and possible deductible changes? And that is somehow better than them notifying you in advance that because of these new requirements your plan is no longer available and you must choose a new plan.

      But no matter which option your company chooses the end result is the same, you are forced to change your current plan (either actively or passively) and the main catalyst for that change is the ACA, not the insurance company.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    185. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The left wishes the website would have worked. But with close to 2 months left before anyone is required to have insurance, there's still time.

      The left is now terrified of what will happen when people find out what these plans actually cost. That's why they threw in the last minute requirement that everybody has to register first and only see the subsidized price (thus causing this debacle).

      Now even Pelosi is suggesting Obamacare be put off for a while! On the irony!

    186. Re:As an outsider. by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of products, and services, and restaurants, and professionals, who do not advertise. They do not need to - it is beneath them. All of their business is word of mouth - or publicity of the past projects (like cases or rescues or parties or medical miracles) they have been involved with. You may call them clueless; others call them elitist and exclusive.

      I'm sure the government hired the usual suspects from the well-known accounting and engineering firms, due to the complexity of the project. I'm also sure that they rebuilt web services and HTML generation from the ground up, because, you know, "not invented here, can't trust it".

      If I wanted to get this done, I'd post to slashdot: "I have a project that Deloite and Booze-Allen say can't be done. Any takers?" and watch my email server crash.

    187. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... but not everyone's.

      Well then those people can go get a job and make up the difference. It's not like that's what people had to do before Obamacare. So it might be you instead of the other guy now. But hey, life isn't fair (another thing told to people who couldn't afford insurance before Obamacare)

      Those time tested platitudes people threw around fighting Obamacare and acted like they lived by them didn't disappear just because the law was passed. What better opportunity for those humble, hard working red blooded Americans who totally aren't at fault to show their resolve and resilience by living to the principles they preached

    188. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 2

      Under some plans a rate change of less than $6 from one year to another was enough to exclude it from the grandfathering clause in the ACA. As the GP wrote this was know in advance and was by design. There are several news sites with the internal WH documents and other agency papers that discuss this very thing.

      There was even debate amongst Obama's speech writers because it was known during the campaign that this promise had no chance of being kept.

      The simple fact is the ACA cannot survive without an influx of younger healthy individual buys ACA approved plans and pre-ACA plans had to be eliminated, no matter how well they worked, because if people were able to maintain their cheaper plans then the cost of the new ACA plans would necessarily have to skyrocket to make up for the influx of the pool of unhealthy taking advantage of them.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    189. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 2

      Sadly, you're one of the lucky ones. The average increase to premiums, according to Forbes, is 41%. The only states with reductions are ones where the state government already had set extremely tight controls over their health care markets so the ACA actually adds fewer burdens on their systems.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    190. Re:As an outsider. by SeattleGameboy · · Score: 1

      A Socialist mob that rams private insurance companies down our throat is not very good at being socialists...

    191. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corn is price controlled. Do you have any problems at all finding corn?

      Yes, actually. Corn is out of season around here.

    192. Re:As an outsider. by Zipo+Bibrok+5e8 · · Score: 1

      What was Linux like after just 3 years of development?

      In 1994? Usable. Version 1.0. Which is a hell of a lot more than anyone can say for this boondoggle.

      --
      -- The Brory Stool Co.: We accidentally the best stools from behind seven proxies, since 2009.
    193. Re:As an outsider. by iserlohn · · Score: 2

      Because it doesn't make sense for us to subsidize low wages as a society.

      I don't want my neighbor to be working and still not be able to feed his family. What's more, I don't want to subsize the company that is making millions off of low-paid staff which then claims benefits. I'd rather employers pay their fair share. If that mean the unemployment rate is a little bit higher, so be it. I'd rather my tax dollars be used to help people that truly need it than some company's bottom line.

    194. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How anyone can think the government can force people to hand money to private companies is simply insane. The last time a government tried this was 238 years ago, and we all know the result of that experiment.
      Uh, no. The last time we did that was with car insurance, and it's the fucking right thing to do. Your "but I'm a good driver and don't need insurance" is great until I pick up the tab because I understand that humans are irrationally optimistic about future outcomes.

      The difference, of course, is that the government is only forcing you to buy car insurance if you choose to drive a car. There is no way to opt-out of health insurance, because you can't choose to be dead. Everyone, by virtue of being alive, is going to need health insurance.

    195. Re:As an outsider. by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      But it started from a Republican idea previously implemented by a Republican governor. The absurdity of the whole thing is that Republicans would not even try to work on supporting an idea that they came up with!

    196. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about that... Have you ever watched the UK House of Commons get into a particularly heated debate? It's often far more interesting than most sessions of either house of the US Congress.

    197. Re:As an outsider. by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 1

      Economists know that every attempt at price controls over the last 4500 years (approximately) have resulted in shortages of the goods/services under control,

      Close. When you introduce price controls that lower the price below the market rate, you see shortages. Why? Because now it's affordable enough that there's more demand. So, if today 150 million Americans are being treated for obesity, tomorrow under insurance there may be 200 million Americans being treated with another 50 million who won't be because while they have the money, there isn't enough supply.

      ... and higher prices for those goods/services.

      Yea, uh, no. Perhaps you mean higher [black] market prices? Or that some non-currency mechanism will result in buying the newly rationed resource? Honestly, though, you miss the real bigger picture. It goes like this: more people get insurance, more people actually use the health care system, health care costs go up, and yet because the number of people who are now paying insurance is greatly increased yet the actual users of health care doesn't (as most people don't willingly go to the doctor except for emergencies and they were already being treated under the old medicare/medicaid-have-to-treat emergency care,-even-if-they-pay-ridiculously-low-installments,-declare-bankruptcy,-or-refuse-to-pay system) the insurance rates will actually go down.

      You see, your argument would have a lot more weight if the old system was pay-or-die and Obamacare suddenly pushed an influx of people who had to suddenly be treated just because they had insurance. Instead, Obamacare is designed to basically give "free money" (effectively a new tax) to insurance companies from lots of young, health adults so that (a) hospitals rely a lot less on the insane system of pricing they currently use, (b) the rare young, healthy adult can get coverage instead of getting sick, liquidating most their assets, and then filing bankruptcy, and (c) to further push for lower premiums (or more likely, to simply cause increases to closer match inflation) for older individuals who are most heavier users of the system.

      I'm 65 years old, and I've been tracking the results of Obamacare among the people I know. (NOT a scientific study.) So far, I'm seeing 8 instances of increased insurance costs (including two people who just qualified for Medicare/Medicaid) for every 1 instance of cost savings.

      How old are these people? And what were their rate increases like for the last 10 years? Are they seeing significant new spikes? And are you planning to track their costs for another 5 years or so, after rates may go down? Insurance companies can use Obamacare as an excuse, at the moment, to raise rates. But higher rates means potentially more competition means more companies means lower rates in the future. And if that's not happening and it's not govt caused (a lot of this not-across-state-lines talk doesn't make much sense to me unless insurance companies cannot open up shop in the state), then it's a market failure.

      It is an Economic Principle that whatever you tax, you will get less of.

      Let's tax murder and lying! Oh, right.

      Obamacare imposes about a 9% additional tax on each employee, and so it is probably going to lead to fewer qualifying jobs in the private sector.

      Most people don't have their job from the benevolence of an employer. Those that don't fire unnecessary employees before Obamacare but do after are evidence of a market failure, actually. And those that close shop because of Obamacare would be an actual complaint against Obamacare, although I sort of wonder about any business which can't manage to tend to the health care/insurance needs of its employees when 99.999% of other businesses can.

      The number of part-time and temp jobs seems to be increasing here in Texas, but full

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    198. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 1

      A couple problems with that line of thought. First the penalties, even at full swing, are significantly less than many of the plans people can apply for. Second, because of the way the ACA was written their is no real enforcement process for people who skip buying insurance. The IRS can withhold your tax return for payment but not much else. So if your taxes balance they will not get 1 cent from you.

      And because of the way it is all set up it would still be cheaper for a lot of people to pay for the standard medical issues out of pocket (ER, broken bones, checkups, etc) and only apply if something catastrophic happens (cancer). Sure there will be a small waiting period where they will be responsible for the initial care costs after the catastrophic diagnosis, but since the odds are in their favor, that could still save them thousands in the long run.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    199. Re:As an outsider. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      The personal mandate raises no revenue.

      The bill was retitled from something completely unrelated.

      I have the option of using public transportation and not paying for car insurance. Under this law, I have no right except to hand over money to private companies.

      As to 238 years ago, the British forced the Colonies to send their raw products to English companies who then resold finished products to the Colonies. The Colonies were only allowed to buy products from these companies, not just EITC, and trying to circumvent this resulted in penalties.

      Why should the government be allowed to force me to buy something if I don't want it? Should they be allowed to force people to buy something else as well? If I have enough money to cover my medical bills, why should they care? It's none of their business any more than it's their business to know what's in your emails or what web sites you visit.

      So no, not fail, completely rational and well thought out.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    200. Re:As an outsider. by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      in most cases mean significant cost increases, coverage shrinkage and possible deductible changes?

      This is not the case. The plans that are being canceled do not meet the minimum coverage requirements. Their coverage is not shrinking, it's expanding. The companies can change them to meet the minimum requirement without significant cost increases, but they won't because that is not the most profitable thing to do and lets face it, insurance companies are not there to help, they are there to make as much money with as little exposure as possible. I would love for them to increase my coverage without notifying me, but they aren't going to increase coverage without taking their pound of flesh.

      There is a pretty large false equivalency at work here. People aren't getting their gold star plans canceled to have them replaced with super expensive lead plans. They are having lead plans canceled and replaced with aluminum plans. No one is losing a great plan, people are only losing plans that were passable at best because the legal standard for passable finally changed for the better. Trying to frame it otherwise is disingenuous.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    201. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 1

      Do I have rose colored glasses on or do you have your blinders on?

      I'll give you copyright, it has gone overboard for sure. Patents work when applied to novel physical inventions. The problem mostly is when they're applied to iterative software "inventions". But they seem to work fine for physical industries that involve manufacturing. I agree on prohibition but I wouldn't classify it as an industry regulation (although you could stretch it, sure). I would have gone with "banking regulations" as your third instead.

      Still, I can counter with three successful regulatory agencies:
      NHTSA - which regulates automobile safety pretty effectively
      FDA - which has done a good job regulating food safety
      OSHA - which has made our workplaces all safer to be in and protects us from being thrown out on the street if we are injured on the job

      The government has plenty of flaws, too many to list. But to insist that it can't regulate effectively is just blind anti-government nonsense.

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    202. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not at all disingenuous. There are systemic problems with both the law and the website and yes they are related in several ways.

      The fact is, this law was rushed through because they had a two year window to do it, and figured they could fix any problems later. Except that when problems keep getting pointed out, the Obama administration refuses to do any fixing. It really is a terrible law, and the website problems are an outgrowth of that mindset.

      This law was cronyism at its worst, and so was the website sub contracting. But the good news is that it's given Democrats a big fat black eye in the public's perception, which is going to hopefully remove them from power in 2014 and 2016.

    203. Re:As an outsider. by BradMajors · · Score: 1

      It does not have to be a "giant project".

      The government could just tell people to buy their insurance on "einsurance.com". As for the subsides: you could enter the amount of your subsidy as a tax credit on your tax return. Done.

    204. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1

      Haha, yeah, I bet all you know about the law you learned reading RedState and watching Fox news.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    205. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      People aren't getting their gold star plans canceled to have them replaced with super expensive lead plans. They are having lead plans canceled and replaced with aluminum plans. No one is losing a great plan, people are only losing plans that were passable at best because the legal standard for passable finally changed for the better.

      I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong. I and countless others are facing the SAME thing:

      2013: $500 deductible, $25 copay, $35 specialist copay. $15 generics.
      2014: $6000 deductible, 50% coinsurance to $9000. No prescription coverage until the deductible is met.

      All this for the same monthly cost.

      I had 2 employers this year and both did the same thing. They call it "Consumer Directed" or "High Deductible" plans. It's supposed to encourage consumers to shop for lower health care costs, but it's the insurance company that tells the doctors how much they can charge. Then you pay it.

    206. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 3, Informative

      Haha, that's an interesting take on history. I think then senator Olympia Snowe would disagree. The wingnuts walked away from negotiations in an attempt to bloody Obama's nose, and throw meat at their based. The template for the law was originally put forward by the heritage foundation, and was supported by top conservatives (such as Gingritch) up until 2008. Guess the GOP didn't know how to declare victory and walk away. I mean, if Obama is for it, then every "true" conservative must fight the SOCIALIST TYRANNY.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    207. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the benefit of younger people who wont ever use it to cover your lazy fat ass? Thanks! I'm really grateful!

    208. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1

      Yeah... the insurance companies are taking advantage of people to up-sell. Also, the plans that existed before 2010 really _are_ grandfathered in. So Obama wasn't lying when he said that you could keep your insurance, but the incentive structures for the insurance industry lined up to produce this bloody mess. And now every partisan wingnut is out there either decrying or defending the law, when we should really be focused on fixing the bloody mess.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    209. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of the medical research in the world happens in America. Of course care is more expensive here. Of course care will be cheaper when we inevitably stop paying for that technological advancement. Cheaper short term.

      That's the most bizarre explanation for the high health care costs in the US that I've ever heard. You seem to completely forget population size. Even if we were to only count people that had health care coverage before the ACA, I doubt that the US would have some sort of remarkably high "medical research per capita" - let alone the highest. The reason for the high costs compared with other modern countries is simply the overhead from the private insurance industry.

    210. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1

      Grandfathered in plans were not allowed to change at all since 2011,

      Haha, I think we should create a loop-hole where the insurance companies can change existing plans (with the consent of their customers of course), and then not be subject to the basic standards the ACA enforces. In that way, the ACA wouldn't enforce any standards at all, and we'll have libetarian paradise, just like we did before the ACA was passed!!!

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    211. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1

      All I needed to know about Obamacare was that it is a form of price control.

      The world is more nuanced than "all I needed to know about X". Like, in the rest of the developed world there isn't quite the same gaming of healthcare as in the USA, and more people have better outcomes. And everyone pays less, on average. A *lot* less. Free markets only work when they are efficient. You can't just map some abstract concept to everything and expect it to work.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    212. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > How anyone can think the government can force people to hand money to private companies is simply insane. The last time a government tried this was 238 years ago, and we all know the result of that experiment.

      They do that all the time. Car insurance, house insurance, etc...

      Yes the law is broken, because it's a patch to an already broken system.

    213. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1, Interesting

      How anyone can think the government can force people to hand money to private companies is simply insane.

      Do you need insurance to drive your car? Where I live you do.

      Besides, liberals wanted a single-payer system. Then there would be no handing money to private companies. The ACA was a conservative idea -- from the heritage foundation, supported by top conservatives up until Obama's election.

      If the ACA is so bad, just remember, it's a conservative idea.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    214. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Going from $500 deductible to $9000.00 deductible is pretty much "losing insurance".

      Aetna flat out told us this was because of the costs of ACA compliance. What costs those are, I have no idea, because my plan has paid out exactly NOTHING in the last year. We got one ACA "Well Baby" visit, but that would have been covered before. Everything else has been out-of-pocket.

      My old plan was AWESOME. My wife c-section cost us.... $500. Offspring #2 is due in March and it's going to cost me $9000.

      "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan" WAS A LIE.

      You might be shocked to hear, but Aetna is lying to you. The cost of compliance for the insurance companies is minimal. They just don't want to be in the private market unless it is very profitable.

      If your wife's plan was in the business market and now you are in the private market, you are comparing apples and pineapples. If you were in the private market during offspring 1, you probably wouldn't have been able to buy insurance. If you did, you would have to have maternity coverage for a year before you could conceive. Provided you did have a provider that would cover a private buyer for maternity and got it covered, your premium would have been high and you would have had an additional maternity deductible in the multiple thousands that took effect after your regular deductible.

      Most of this law is about making the business market rules apply to the private market. And you could have kept your plan if Aetna would continue to offer it. It was true. You just had to keep buying the same plan. All the providers came out with new non-compliant plans after the cutoff and got you to buy it so they could cancel you today.

      People in the private market used to be completely screwed if they actually needed insurance. Now they are only mostly screwed.

      *Disclosure - I buy insurance for small/medium groups*

    215. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hardly consider Joe Lieberman an XXX-left Democrat. This law had to be significantly altered to appease the center-right Blue Dog Democrats. Additionally moderate republicans like Olympia Snowe were heavily courted and many attempts were made to include senators like her. Thirdly, a compromise between left and center-left would have included heavy negotiations around a single-payer system. This idea is heavily favored by the left, but it was abandoned on day 1 as an appeasement to the republicans to try and court their approval.

      Lastly, there may be some wisdom in passing things piecemeal as opposed to an 'all-in-one' bill. However if there was such strong overlap between the two as you suggest (eliminate pre-existing conditions, eliminate lifetime caps, more competition, adult kids stay on plans, etc.) why through such a hissy fit over the logistics of passing measures agreed to by both sides? The answer is simple - anything passed would be good for Obama (and likely the country). Since these days Republicans are all about Party over Country, this couldn't be allowed.

    216. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1

      Haha, got to agree. US politics is truly a monstrosity. It's hilarious what victims the GOP faithful think they are, how self-righteous, and how reviled by most of the world. Every good story needs a villain. Australian/Canadian politics is so banal in comparison. I mean, they have majority rule there, so politicians can't obstruct and finger-point, and trust the faithful to generate psychotic delusions of victim-hood. We also don't have a conservative media complex fleecing the gullible. Rupert Murdoch and the resurrection of yellow journalism was the worst thing that happened to the USA.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    217. Re:As an outsider. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      "You know, in certain older civilized cultures, when men failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords."
      ... A whole lot of government figures should be throwing themselves on their swords. ...

      As I remember from Serenity, it didn't turn out so well for those with the swords...

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    218. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, there are idiots saying they could have built it better, but there's a lot of smart people saying that they could have built it so that it didn't fail in the way that it did. The problem isn't that the logic is too complex or improperly coded, the problem is that the site doesn't scale. And if complex logic is causing scalability issues, you've designed the architecture wrong.

      For something like this project, it was known ahead of time that the logic would be convoluted, ugly and prone to change. A seasoned architect would have seen this problem and immediately thought: rules engine. A decision like that would have decoupled the process of coding a website that needed to scale to millions of users from the process of coding complex business rules. And there are a lot of people who are very able to design such a system.

      People want to make it seem like building a rock-solid website for millions of people is impossibly complex. But despite the difficulty, it's really not that level of hard. But the first step is not breaking into multiple projects built by separate contractors simultaneously and integrated together very close to the deadline, especially when those contractors aren't vetted well for competency. The problems with this site started well before the first line of code was written.

    219. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, no. The last time we did that was with car insurance, and it's the fucking right thing to do.

      Since you bring up car insurance, let me correct your false beliefs.

      There are 0 federal laws requiring you to have car insurance. None. Zero. Zip. Nadda. Nothing.

      States have "financial responsibility laws" which require you to prove that you are able to be held financially responsible for any damanges you may cause while driving.

      Car insurance is only 1 potential method to meet the requirements of state financial responsibility laws. There are other methods, and it varies by state.

      In my state, one merely has to file a form stating they have over $40,000 in assets, to meet the financial responsibility law, and they are not required to purchase car insurance if they do.

      So good sir, it is a falsehood to think and state that "everyone must buy car insurance, because it is the right thing to do."

      The truth is, noone is required to buy car insurance, but if they want to drive, they are required to meet the conditions of their states financial responsibility laws.

    220. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny you should say that, because the media here paints other world leaders the same way. My country makes fun of your country, your country makes fun of our country and most people in both places believe the bullshit they read, while the truth is the vast majority of political leaders are all corrupt and incompetent. Then those of us with our heads somewhere other than our asses sit around and watch all of you, because it's just so entertaining - like pro wrestling, but with a LOT more violence.

    221. Re:As an outsider. by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, overhead+fraud in private insurance is similar to overhead+fraud in Medicare. Make of that what you will. We do have very high "medical research per capita", however, as most the pharma research happens here (which is a huge cost), and a high share of the device research as well.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    222. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is correct as far as it goes. Whether or not the website works has nothing to do with whether it was a good law or not. The fat that the federal government can't get a website working after 3 years and 3/4 of a billion dollars spent should, however, make you think twice about letting them run anything that's important to you.

      As for the law itself, the fact that Obama had to repeatedly lie to get the law passed, that millions are losing their insurance, that rates are skyrocketing and that this is only the beginning -- well, you get the idea.

    223. Re: As an outsider. by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      The difference is, the fighters are hugely complex and bleeding edge. A website is pretty old hat in 2013.

      I think youre wrong about the no outrage thing tho, its just been beaten to death.

    224. Re:As an outsider. by TheNastyInThePasty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At no point were the Dems who were pushing for this courting or expecting Republican votes, hence the procedural trickery they did in the Senate to pass it, but they did require the blue dogs and other center left Dems.

      WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. How can people be so ignorant of something that happened only a few years ago? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112222617

      Here's an interesting quote from Republican Senator Grassley:

      "No public option. No play-or-pay. No things that are going to lead to any rationing of health care. No interference with the doctor-patient relationship," says Grassley. "About the only place we haven't made progress along the lines of what Republicans are wanting on the bill is in tort reform."

      --
      The best thing about UDP jokes is I don't care if you get them or not
    225. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow...you've given three examples that are bad...that doesn't mean they all are.

      Meanwhile, the FDA, FCC, SEC and tons of other government oversight programs have been largely successful. When you go to a grocery store, the meat you buy is largely safe to eat and mostly the type of meat advertised. This was not the case before the FDA started regulating. Regardless of how you feel about how they've apportioned the wireless spectrum, that they have and they regulate it enables something other than a free-for-all and means that everything from TV to WiFi/Cell to GPS can work reliably. And the only real problem with the SEC is the drastic underfunding compared to the industry they regulate...the regulations are almost always positive. In fact much of the mortgage/CDS crash can be traced back to repealing specific regulations that would have protected/mitigated against the massive fail that Wall St produced.

      The Government has done well at some things and screwed up in others. That's no reason why we shouldn't expect them to get each regulation right, which is very different from expecting them to get every regulation right.

    226. Re:As an outsider. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      No shit. I mean i always smoke pot while driving an 18 wheeler down the intrrstate at 70mph. I find the tunnelvision helps me concentrate on the dotted lines. My brother is a crane operater and says getting stoned calms his nerves when placing 6000 pound steel beams right next to a couple workers 25 stories in the air.

      I often take meth while driving too, but sometimes have to tone it down with some wild turkey. Its my body, i should be able to do whatever i want to it right. . Oh i gotta go, that heroin adict is at the door and if i don:'t watch her like a hawk, things disapear.

    227. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but US healthcare was broke long before Obama got involved. He certainly didn't make it better, but did put the issue in front of everyones face at the national level.

      As for Romney and Mass? Only an idiot would think a state level healthcare system would ever work at a national level.

      But please. Keep blaming Obama. It's a convenient talking point that this is his clusterfuck, and that the other side offers nothing of solutions, only blame and damnation.

      If you were anymore transparent, you'd be fucking Casper!

    228. Re: As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except most aren't working well. You've been done in by more Democrat lies. Read about NY, Vermont, several others. They aren't going well.

    229. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that's simply not true. Some are doing well, some aren't. Kentucky and NY are doing well. Oregon might be a bigger disaster than the Federal exchange. And California, Colorado, and Connecticut are having some big issues, but not as big as the Federal one, and should be running without major glitches soon. Don't know which Democrat's lies led you to believe the state exchanges are hunky dory, but you should remember that Democrats lie more than Republicans, and that Obama starkly and distinctly lied over and over again.

      Stop parroting Democrat talking points that are lies.

      Also, with your states are doing great attitude, you almost sound like a Tea Partier talking about how states and localities can do things better than the Feds. States Rights!

    230. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They tried it, it didn't work very well. Romneycare led to massive increases in healthcare costs in MA, and did not insure the many uninsured it was supposed to. It did not meet the goals set for it, so the GOP realized it was a bad idea. Most people don't take failed ideas and keep pushing them, because that would be stupid.

      But the Democrats did. They looked at the failure in MA and decided to spread that failure all over the country. Seems rather stupid to me.

    231. Re:As an outsider. by Q-Hack! · · Score: 1

      Bill Whittle put up a video recently talking about this very problem. The entire US Constitution is approximately 4400 words. The ACA is upwards of 20,000 pages, and still growing.

      --
      Some days I get the sinking feeling Orwell was an optimist.
    232. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 1

      They also didn't bother to figure out who was going to subsidize the ACA like the Federal Government actually subsidize Romneycare.

      It seems like very few congresscritters can do math and in this case, none of those few that can had anything to do with the ACA.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    233. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Going from $500 deductible to $9000.00 deductible is pretty much "losing insurance".

      Aetna flat out told us this was because of the costs of ACA compliance. What costs those are, I have no idea, because my plan has paid out exactly NOTHING in the last year. We got one ACA "Well Baby" visit, but that would have been covered before. Everything else has been out-of-pocket.

      My old plan was AWESOME. My wife c-section cost us.... $500. Offspring #2 is due in March and it's going to cost me $9000.

      "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan" WAS A LIE.

      How is this the government's fault? They aren't providing the plan. They are only providing the reinbursement for those unable to pay for it.

      The insurance companies are the ones screwing over the American people. They know that everyone must apply for health insurance and every single person will be covered, no questions asked. That doesn't sit well with insurance companies so they are giving the big FU to our government.

      They can no longer deny a 23 old child from receiving a heart transplant because he was born for a defect but they can raise all the health care plans instead. This way they continue to make record profits off health care coverage.

    234. Re:As an outsider. by jandrese · · Score: 1

      You don't have to buy car insurance. You can simply get rid of your car to avoid it. Of course it will be more difficult to get rid of your body, maybe some day when you can upload your brain to a machine we can be outraged at having to buy medical insurance for a body we no longer have.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    235. Re:As an outsider. by BradMajors · · Score: 1

      well... if your wife knew she was pregnant when she applied for insurance she did have a "pre-existing condition".

    236. Re:As an outsider. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      We had insurance for 4 years previous.....

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    237. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Government did allow you to keep your plan.

      No, no it doesn't. Grandfathered in plans were not allowed to change at all since 2011, and that simply is never going to happen over three years. Change the doctors covered under the plan? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in. Adjust costs due to inflation? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in. Increase coverage? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in.

      Obamacare was written in such a way to guarantee these plans would be dropped. Period. Obama knew you weren't going to be able to keep your plans. Period.

      You can't blame the insurance companies for this. There was no way they were ever going to be able to actually meet the requirements to grandfather in plans, if for no other reason than simple inflation.

      And that's exactly what the individual mandate was--a huge compromise of liberal values to adopt a Republican idea. The fact that no Republican voted for it even then shows how spiteful and divisive they are.

      Or that they looked at Massachusetts, saw that Romney's attempt at implementing it didn't work, and didn't want to send the nation down the same path. It's not hard to see that Obamacare doesn't and never will work. The HealthCare.gov debacle is proof enough of that.

      Except when this is a bunch of BS. The health care industry is making trillions in profit. The fact they are raising prices only proves they are greedy, don't care and can't be stopped.

    238. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha, you found the "logic" to fit your ideological agenda!! You know that's how it works, right? That's how epistemic closure works. I don't own a car, so the government isn't forcing me to buy insurance. If I had more responsibilities, such as kids, then I would _need_ a car, and be forced to buy insurance. But you're right... just go native, and you can keep your ideology.

    239. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 1

      Nothing in the ACA controls health care costs, in fact it almost universally pushes up costs. The average rate increase due to implementation of ACA regulations according to Forbes is 41%.

      It also does very little to actually increase the number of insured. Even their own numbers expect very similar rates of pre-ACA and post-ACA insured since most of those counted as uninsured pre-ACA were in fact eligible for government healthcare anyway and just weren't officially registered but who would have been as soon as they visited any medical office.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    240. Re:As an outsider. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      The last time we did that was with car insurance,

      Car insurance isn't for your benefit, directly, it's for the other guy when you hit them. The difference between these two concepts is when I'm driving there is a very slight but still non-zero chance I may hit you. If that event occurs, my insurance will pay you for your troubles or I will pay you due to my deductible. Or both.

      If I break my arm, that's on me and me alone. You are in no way affected by me breaking my arm.

      There is no way to opt-out of health insurance,

      Sure there is. Don't buy it. If you have the money to cover your bills why should you buy it?

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    241. Re:As an outsider. by emaname · · Score: 1

      The Government did allow you to keep your plan. It's Aetna that decided to screw you over and try to get you to blame someone else. It seems to have worked, because instead of directing your ire at the insurance industry's thieving, scheming, middle-men, you're angry at the administration trying to reform a horribly broken system in a political climate where it's virtually impossible to get anything done even when you're willing to adopt ideas from the other side as a compromise.

      And that's exactly what the individual mandate was--a huge compromise of liberal values to adopt a Republican idea. The fact that no Republican voted for it even then shows how spiteful and divisive they are.

      Spot freakin' on!!!

      I wish we could continue to pile on mod points for comments as accurate as yours. I'd give you an "eleven" insightful.

      --
      An effective "democracy" creates the illusion the people have a say in their government.
    242. Re:As an outsider. by jandrese · · Score: 2

      The old system was broken because people without insurance or a method of payment still got healthcare. If doctors would simply kick people out of the door to die on the street whenever they can't pay, we would have a much lower insurance rates and everybody would have their freedom. Of course your rates would still go up because you would have to pay someone to collect the dead bodies littering the grounds outside of hospitals, but it would still be cheaper overall.

      It's all of these weak willed people who won't let the poor suffer and die whenever they get sick that's the problem. They're ruining my glorious libertarian capitalist paradise!

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    243. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really don't see the difference between republican or democrat at this point, neither side is doing their job. As for the state sites I recently signed up via the covered California site and it worked rather nicely. The hard part is wading through all the legalease to find out what is and isn't covered and how much you have to pay. If we could just do away with say 98% of the lawyers in the US things would get much better.
      As for obamacare, can anyone point to a large scale web site opening that DID NOT fall on its' face for a long time ?
       

    244. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you need insurance to drive your car? Where I live you do.

      That's your state's requirement. That makes it an entirely different argument.

    245. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 3, Informative

      So if a 34 year old single male's plan doesn't currently cover maternity costs and birth control pills but covers everything else with a good network, low deductibles and manageable co-pays he be say thank you for a bill that now covers his birth control pills but will have much more restrictive networks, higher deductibles and higher co-pays because... well .... just because.

      There are millions of plans that work quite well and are very comprehensive that do not meet the random requirements of the ACA. The Lead to Aluminum fallacy is just what people like you try to sell yourselves.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    246. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Italy begs to disagree and china just shoots theirs.

    247. Re:As an outsider. by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      But what is "under-insurance"? I ask because I'm one of those people who got a cancelation notice and as far as I can tell the replacement "ACA Certified" plan is exactly the same as what I have only with twice the monthly premium and 2x the deductible.

      And for the record I'm a white male in his early 30's.

      Right now I pay $86 a month for a plan with a $3,500 deductible and max $8,000 out of pocket costs. It has prescription drug coverage, which I've filled exactly 1 prescription which was a generic and $4 out of pocket at WalMart, in the 3 years I've had the plan. Doctor visits are free for annual check up, $35 non-check up. $60 co-pay for a specialist visit, $40 urgent care, and $250 emergency room visit. I've had the coverage for 3 years now plus an HSA from the last state I was in that was the way to go.

      The closest plan "to what I pay now" is $156 a month for a "bronze plan" and is a $6,000 deductible and $12,000 max out of pocket in network, $17,000 out of network. The "Closest to what I have" is almost $300 a month.

      Next year I'm getting married and will have the option to go on the wife's company plan. Well at least for a few months. She's an attorney in their legal department and one of her assignments for next year: see how we can dump employer coverage.

      I've been shopping around. And no one's been able to tell me exactly what happens to the $8,000 in my HSA. So much so that I'm considering getting some elective dental work done just to use that $8,000.

      And no, they're won't be subsidized solution offered to me. I make over the personal limit and next combined household income will make us "rich" by somebody's definition.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    248. Re:As an outsider. by c++0xFF · · Score: 1

      We CAN'T be watching the same C-SPAN channel. Just how dull are your politicians?

    249. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you vote Democratic in the next US Presidential election cycle to ensure that those darn Republican Activist Justices are replaced by people who Think Different (tm).

      It is gratifying to know you have such a fine grasp of Constitutional Law. Now, where was it you said your graduated from law school?

    250. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't forget the coverage and code base will have to be changed every time Obama changes his mind. In re: the employer mandate, whatever rules are passed to update the "grandfather" clause, whatever they're pushing for the subsidies, and whether unions are exempt and to what extent.

    251. Re: As an outsider. by jc42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The difference is, the fighters are hugely complex and bleeding edge. A website is pretty old hat in 2013.

      From what I've read, it's actually sorta the opposite. The healthcare.gov site is generally described as a bureaucratic database horror story. Multiple databases, actually, each with its own API (that's poorly documented), each one elsewhere on the Net, with unrealistic response-time "requirements" written by managers with little distributed-DB experience. And no understanding that messages between sites can't move faster than the speed of light.

      Funny thing is that I've also read a number of comments recently about the zillions of cases where new decrees from Congress are handled by thousands of government web sites within a day or two. Thus, the recent "shutdown" was handled gracefully by most departments' web sites, and they were back up within a day or so when the people were called back to work.

      So it's not that "the government" can't handle building and revising web sites. Thousands of departments are doing it the job routinely, and nobody notices because it usually goes smoothly.

      But healthcare.gov by its very nature has attracted the attention of every politician within reach, most of which qualify as PHBs who want their name attached to the results but are otherwise clueless about this InterWeb stuff. The result is a flood of conflicting orders coming down to the grunts doing the actual web-site development, with radical changes appearing in their inboxes daily.

      I'm sure that lots of readers here can identify with this situation. How often have the rest of you seen exactly this sort of mess in a corporate setting? I'm sure we can collect a lot of good horror stories. Or we can just go over to The Daily WTF and read about (or submit them) them there.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    252. Re:As an outsider. by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      The rules that the tax software uses are simple though. The IRS systems don't work well and are near impossible to update. If it was easy to write the software, they wouldn't have so much trouble updating it. Tax prep software doesn't follow all the special cases and intricacies, it just chooses the easy ones to implement. That's why wealthy people and companies don't do their taxes in TurboTax.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    253. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and then Grassley and the rest of the Republicans walked, you asshat. And what resulted was 100% Democrat construct.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act#Healthcare_debate.2C_2008.E2.80.9310

    254. Re:As an outsider. by fldsofglry · · Score: 1

      And the ACA was passed without a singe Republican vote.

      I'm sorry......I'm sorry that democracy didn't work for you.

    255. Re:As an outsider. by iserlohn · · Score: 1

      British, France, Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Japan and other advanced economies doesn't seem to have any problems coming up with new treatments and drugs. Just as an example, Kings College and Guys' & St. Thomas', an NHS hospital, just developed a new and affordable test to predict pre-eclampsia on pregnant women before it develops. This is really important work, done on the public purse, which most tax payers (me included) couldn't be happier to fund.

    256. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because a Republican came up with something, all Republicans have to accept it and work on it even when a Democrat is using it for a completely different purpose, whether or not it works, forever and ever into all eternity, amen?

      Are you some sort of idiot?

    257. Re:As an outsider. by kbolino · · Score: 1

      Secondly, not all price controls are bad. Some are necessary as the market is not always optimal.

      What is about disinterested and clueless third parties that makes them superior to market actors in determining prices?

      For example, there is a reason for the minimum wage - otherwise you have more and more working poor that rely on benefits

      In exchange we have non-working poor that rely on benefits. Why was that a good trade-off?

      or alternatively you can cut all benefits and bring back poor laws and workhouses

      Why not cut benefits and not bring back poor laws and workhouses? All of the above just serve to subsidize one lifestyle or another. Stop controlling people and goddammit they might just figure out that scarcity is inescapable but wealth is not a zero-sum game.

      There's a reason why we dumped that system.

      Because not only did it not work, it also didn't get votes. Now we have a system that doesn't work but has at least guaranteed single-party control of every major urban area for over half a century now!

    258. Re:As an outsider. by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      Now, their plans are priced for things like gynecological exams for men and prostate exams for women

      I don't understand this argument. How can these factors possibly cause the insurance to cost more? If they're impossible, which they are, then they cost nothing to underwrite.

    259. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what also was a common story before the ACA? Try the one about medical bills being the biggest cause of bankruptcies in the US. Insurance companies were very happy to sell you cheap plans that were very profitable so long as you didn't really get sick and then drop you as soon as the plan became unprofitable. Closing that loophole has forced insurance companies to price insurance in a way that actually covers the cost of people getting seriously ill.

      From the perspective of someone who hasn't had an illness that racks up hundreds of thousands in medical bills, the new system would seem to suck, but if you consider that it's protecting you from having your entire financial future derailed in the event of a significant health problem, it makes things more palatable. And now that people are paying for plans that actually reflect how out of control prices for health care have become, perhaps there will be more pressure/motivation to fix the root cause of the plans costing as much as they do.

    260. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 1

      The majority of pre-ACA plans cannot be grandfathered according the the very tight restrictions placed on the grandfather clause. Almost any change, even including adjustments for inflation or age, automatically invalidate the plan and make it a violation of the ACA.

      This was not an accident and is mentioned in discussion within the administration from the beginning.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    261. Re:As an outsider. by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Better preventative care is likely to bring down long term costs, but that's really a side effect of insuring everyone. The main point was that a health care plan should attempt to tackle the major problems, either the number of people insured or controlling the increase in health costs.

      You can find weird ways to skew it, but giving people actual insurance (not "supplemental insurance" that just cover a couple doctor's visits or scam insurances with a high deductible and low lifetime cap) is a major improvement. I haven't heard of this government healthcare that covers 30 million people that we currently have, do you have more details on that?

    262. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if a Republican says "I'll compromise and give you an abortion," and you don't take it, then you're a spiteful hypocrite..... right...

    263. Re:As an outsider. by kbolino · · Score: 1

      I don't want my neighbor to be working and still not be able to feed his family

      Then maybe your neighbor should have had fewer kids? Or maybe he should do something worth as much as it costs to feed his family?

      What's more, I don't want to subsize the company that is making millions off of low-paid staff which then claims benefits.

      Find a company with a large low-paid workforce. Now look at how much they pay in taxes. Now look at how much their employees receive in government benefits. You may notice that the former quantity is greater than the latter, typically much greater. What value is the government adding to this transaction, exactly?

      I'd rather employers pay their fair share.

      As long as there is no slavery in law or in fact, then the workers are getting paid the least they will accept and the most the company will pay. That's fair. Forcing the company to pay the workers more than that is no more sustainable than forcing the workers to accept less than that.

      If that mean the unemployment rate is a little bit higher, so be it. I'd rather my tax dollars be used to help people that truly need it than some company's bottom line.

      You don't care that there are more poor people, as long as they're all equally poor?

    264. Re:As an outsider. by Kylon99 · · Score: 1

      > How can people be so ignorant of something that happened only a few years ago?

      At some point it becomes: "Do not assume idiocy where maliciousness becomes the most logical explanation."

      Then again, the people merely parroting incorrect talking points could be stupid. But it is most likely a conspiracy to rewrite the truth through excessive high volume. How else can you win if all your points were proven wrong anyways?

    265. Re:As an outsider. by dwpro · · Score: 1

      Is there any evidence that there was anything untoward going? Sharing a duration at a university is not a noteworthy relationship and reeks of politicized bullshittery.

      --
      Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
    266. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1

      You're right. Most private insurance plans are changed year-to-year (usually small adjustments), and they had to remain the same or be canceled. If you allowed them to change even a little, I'm sure people would have weaseled out of proper insurance, and then everyone else pays when they get sick. (Or you let them die, which isn't going to happen in America.)

      My university used to mandate insurance, but now we are forced to by university health insurance. The reason is that people would cheap out and by junk, and then they don't have enough money to cover a broken ankle. The insurance companies liked it, because it was a market for them: people who had to get insurance who didn't want it. The students liked it because they were stupid, and believed that misfortune was something that happened to other people.

      Obama shouldn't have used the language he did; however, the situation is predictable, and so is the insurance companies trying to take advantage of people's confusion to up-sell plans.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    267. Re:As an outsider. by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      Nowhere here is there any price controls, rather it sets up a much more fair marketplace (i.e.: one more true to capitalist theory) than the deceptive an exclusionary one we have now.

      False, it shifts from one exclusionary model to another. So instead of insurance companies selectively dropping people because of conditions (which ACA fixed), now insurance companies are forced to offer Cadillac plans by law (which excludes "true insurance plans" that are intended only for catastrophic events). Basically, ACA forces everyone to pay for the kitchen sink, whether they need/want it or not, even if they'll never need it (such as people who will never have kids being forced to pay for maternity care).

    268. Re:As an outsider. by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      Besides, liberals wanted a single-payer system.

      No, a fraction of the Democrat party wanted single-payer. They didn't have enough support to pass it, otherwise we would have it. The bill passed with a supermajority after all.

      The ACA was a conservative idea -- from the heritage foundation, supported by top conservatives up until Obama's election.

      Oh? Cite? Last I heard, the Heritage plan was a 15+ year old idea that went out of style long before Obama entered office. And it's way different than what was actually passed (for one, the Heritage plan wasn't a federal plan -- for two, it wasn't thousands of pages long with all kinds of bells and whistles).

      If the ACA is so bad, just remember, it's a conservative idea.

      You people and your echo chambers...

    269. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > $9000.00 deductible is pretty much "losing insurance".

      No, that is insurance. What you had before was a maintenance plan.

      The coverage with the $9k deductible might actually cover more than then $500 one. I know my coverage improved greatly when the deductible went from $2k to 10k. The insurance was a hell of a lot better deal because the amount covered after the deductible increased from 60% to 90%. I saved over $25k the first year because my company switched giving employees a real insurance plan rather than a maintenance plan. Check what is covered after the deductible. I bet Aetna did you a favor by actually selling you insurance instead of fraudulently selling something else as insurance.

      Of course now with RmoneyCare, the Republicans are forcing us to buy maintenance plans by outlawing real insurance plans. After the start of next year, my company is having to drop all of our insurance plans. They are now forcing us to a piece of garbage with a $1k deductible. That is not insurance. Calling it that is a Republican lie.

    270. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but like everything the daemons are in the details. The Heritage foundations plans were 'thought experiments' without much of the actual detail of how implementation would look. I haven't seen the original plan that people keep talking about, does anyone have a link?
      Maybe this from 2008? http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/04/health-care-reform-design-principles-for-a-patient-centered-consumer-based-market

      but what is absent is :
      A government that mandates minimum coverage amounts for plans and dictates terms like maximum out of pocket rather then let competition set those things based off of what people are willing to pay.
      A whole series of other provisions added to the law that force an increase in what is covered and therefore it's cost , a huge tax subsidies for families making less the 90k per year, the mandate that everyone must participate.

      Where any of those things in the Heritage foundation plan? probably not. Can someone find them for me?

      I find it interesting that those people who claim alliance with the left rather then taking credit for the wonderful plan the is the ACA are looking to diffuse the blame to other groups.

      But the reality if if the plan ever started with something that looked like it was based in conservative ideas a bait-and switch was pulled long ago by government officials who believe they know what is better for the you then you do. They know how much coverage you need to have and how important it should be for you , they also know how much of your wages you should be willing to pay for the coverage they dictate.

      Can almost guarantee that kind of thought doesn't come from the heritage foundation.
      Where any of those things in the Heritage foundation plan? probably not. Can someone find them for me?

    271. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you think insurance premiums are going up because "Obamacare" is forcing insurance companies to provide birth-control pills to males?

      Why do you have such low faith in the free-market, where there must be at least one insurance company in the USA that is willing to compete and offer lower premiums to males (in the hopes that they don't have to pay a claim for males using birth-control pills).

      Sounds like you'd prefer a single-payer system over this obviously broken free-market system (you do realize ACA is private insurance, and is not dictating costs).

    272. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Auto insurance is not a valid comparison as one can decide to not own an auto.

    273. Re:As an outsider. by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      'm not sure how much of a political embarrassment it really is. Yeah it should be working, but I'm not sure embarrassment is the right word. The right wants to make the website it an embarrassment, but they would want to paint whatever happens as an embarrassment even if the website worked perfectly. The left wishes the website would have worked.

      Isn't it obvious why it's an embarrassment? Obama said "the government can do this better than the free market" while the Republicans said the govt would be far more ineffective and even more costly, particularly in regard to this particular healthcare implementation. What's happening is proof of the latter. What's happening lends credence to the claims that leaving something in the hands of big govt is more likely to fuck things up than fix things. On top of that, this is supposed to be the "big achievement" of this administration, and besides from it's terrible rollout, it's done a great deal of harm already (people losing their insurance, premiums spiking, etc).

    274. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could figure out all of the answers to your questions yourself, if you are indeed interested in in what really happened. I certainly don't have time to type everything out for you just to have you ignore me. There is a Japanese statement: he who doesn't listen, doesn't hear.

    275. Re:As an outsider. by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      (ACA begin as a Republican program under Romney, remember).

      What is that supposed to prove? That Republicans are the only ones intelligent enough to watch something play out poorly on a state level and make the connection that maybe doing the same thing on a federal level is a bad idea? http://dailycaller.com/2013/11/03/romney-obama-failed-to-learn-the-lessons-from-romneycare-video/

    276. Re:As an outsider. by Nyder · · Score: 0

      Odd - Windows, in it's various incarnations, has cost me much much MUCH more than Linux ever cost me, in terms of time, frustration, and aggravation.

      Then you haven't tried gaming on Linux.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    277. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bipartisan
      Bipartisan
      Conservative
      Recent
      Recent

      You conservatives are so SMART!!!

    278. Re:As an outsider. by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      That's funny. I have the opinion that Obamacare is bad because it's nowhere near socialist enough. It's trying to take the basically socialistic concept of spreading financial burden over a nationwide population and twist it to fit the mold of the mythical "free market".

      Forcing everyone to participate in a gamed system with a price floor is not a "Free market". The fact some 90 million people are losing their current insurance plans is proof of this.

      A single-payer system would have been much better. IMHO

      I'm willing to bet large amounts of money that you couldn't explain to me the "how" or "why" of this statement. You'd fall back on some fallacy of "but everyone else does it and they pay less than us!", knowing absolutely nothing about market dynamics, cost controls, or consumer choice.

    279. Re:As an outsider. by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      I would mostly agree with you – expect for the assumption that they were given enough time.

      The way I understand it (and let me know if I am wrong) the government and the private contractors came up with a schedule where the government would translate the law into regulations which would then be translated into requirements. The government was often late and the requirements were of poor quality (overly complex in some areas, vague and contradictory in others.) And then there were the revisions. It is hard to build solid foundations on shifting sand.

      You can contract this with the Kentucky health care website, which I understand works. In that case Kentucky delivered simpler requirements on time.

    280. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not with BC/BS you didn't -- that is why the "pre-existing condition" limitations that the insurers had was so asinine.
      If your employer switched insurance companies, you'd be screwed because all the illnesses you've ever had in your entire life all become "pre-existing conditions" with the new insurance company.

    281. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo, we have a winner! And if insurers are jacking the rates for impossibilities, then trust in the free-market that a lone insurer will rise and under-cut everyone else on premiums.

    282. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should be noticing those letters are written by marketers. All of the companies canceling insurance are claiming this was due to ACA; yet the insurance was pretty awful in the first place, mainly just barely enough to claim they had health insurance. Often the lost insurance isn't that big of a deal and the subsidies will provide better insurance.

    283. Re:As an outsider. by srichard25 · · Score: 2

      If compromises were being planned just to appease Republicans, yet not a single Republican was willing to sign the bill, why was the bill written with those compromises anyway???? What kind of sense does that make?

      The gestures made to get 3 of the most liberal Republicans onboard were extremely weak gestures just to provide some political cover if/when the "trainwreck" of a law became reality. There was never a serious effort to work in a bi-partisan fashion with the Republican party on healthcare reform. The TRUE compromises were made in the effort of keeping center Demoncrats onboard (exactly like the original poster said).

      The Cornhusker kickback was added to appease Democrat Ben Nelson (the 60th vote). The Louisiana Purchase was the inclusion of millions in Medicaid federal aid to help out Democrat Mary Landrieu.

    284. Re:As an outsider. by JWW · · Score: 1

      The government has plenty of laws, too many to list.

      FTFY. ;-)

    285. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your comparison to Vista is very insightful, but you shouldn't make it because you are supporting the Republicans when you admit there are problems with the web site.

    286. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Government did allow you to keep your plan.

      No, no it doesn't. Grandfathered in plans were not allowed to change at all since 2011, and that simply is never going to happen over three years. Change the doctors covered under the plan? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in. Adjust costs due to inflation? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in. Increase coverage? Plan changed and can't be grandfathered in.

      Obamacare was written in such a way to guarantee these plans would be dropped. Period. Obama knew you weren't going to be able to keep your plans. Period.

      You can't blame the insurance companies for this. There was no way they were ever going to be able to actually meet the requirements to grandfather in plans, if for no other reason than simple inflation.

      Except nearly all of your claims are wrong and I'm tempted to write you are a blatant liar, but I can believe you seriously think this. My insurance qualifies for being grandfathered in, in spite of the rate going up next year. The doctors change as they're hired or leave, yet the plan is still grandfathered in. Now, I'm expecting to change plans due to cost (high-risk plan, but I had to have it), but I still have the option to stay with this existing one.

    287. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason the law is so complex is that American health policy is made not by a process of examining the options rationally and picking out the best ones, but by a process of political compromise,

      Right, a simple free market where insurers offer insurance that customers desire or go out of business would work much better than an expensive and convoluted system that resulted from the incessant and destructive meddling of politicians and government bureaucrats.

      Instead, we had to accommodate every powerful interest group, campaign contributor, and free-market ideologue. Why do we need a private insurance industry? We don't, they just have a good lobby.

      We need private industry because this is supposedly a free society we live in, not a tyrannical dictatorship where government says who can give and receive care and how and for how much.

      Only government has the power to accommodate every powerful interest group in the way you describe. If we had a truly free market in the healthcare industry, only those who provide a quality product for a fair price would be rewarded by customers. It's naive of you to think that the solution to a government created problem is more government. Although, that is the way of the left -- the cause of every problem is not enough government and the solution is yet more.

      The free market health care system doesn't work unless you're willing to let people die when they can't afford health care.

      Actually, in a free market, if you and other like minded individuals would like to pay for the healthcare of others, you are free to do so. Therefore, your premise is false.

      What you and others on the left really want is forced charity, where everyone must pay for the healthcare of others. Generally, free market advocates favor providing healthcare and other resources to those who are disabled and are unable to provide for themselves. What they do not favor is government forcing everyone to pay for those who are able that fail to pay for their own care.

      So how do the right-wingers get out of that? They come up with a system of subsidies . . .to get what subsidy, they have to examine every applicant's income . . .

      Somehow you've confused right with left, as it's the left that favor systems of subsidies based on income, not the right.

      Because it incorporates tax payments and other grants, you have a system which is as complicated as the entire tax system and a welfare application combined.

      Right, as if the tax and welfare system wasn't complicated enough, let's combine it with health insurance and watch the problems inherent with government planned programs and economies compound into a miserable failure.

      Then you have to please these economic theorists who believe (despite 40 years of evidence) that if people have to pay co-payments, they'll be wiser medical consumers.

      I don't think the purpose of co-pays is to create wiser consumers. Instead, it seems the intended purpose was to provide a disincentive to over-consuming healthcare goods and services covered under insurance. Absent a co-pay, the consumer has no incentive to not over-consume. Co-pays provide that incentive. This isn't a theory, it's observable human nature.

      So you've just made a simple system complex. . . . By the time you've finished compromising with every interest group, you have an enormously complicated health care financing system, which may not even be precisely designed or logically consistent.

      I agree, the free market is much simpler than the maze of government rules and regulations based on politics and cronyism.

      Then you have to provide "choice" of silver, gold, platinum and lead policies, so you have to do the same thing four times over.

      Choice is a good thing for consu

    288. Re: As an outsider. by White+Jesus · · Score: 1

      no one is "giving" anyone anything. sorry, but forcing someone to buy insurance doesn't count as charitable, especially if they couldn't afford it before, and the new requirements make it cost more.

    289. Re:As an outsider. by quantaman · · Score: 1

      The ACA is a Democratic version of a Republican idea.

      The Republican's were more than welcome to participate, but they knew that any serious reform would be interpreted as a victory for Obama and the Democrats, so they made the decision to make the bill as unpopular as possible, and that involved never entering serious negotiations to avoid the appearance of bipartisanship.

      The reason people say they had no alternative is because they didn't, and that was a strategic decision. It's easy to make proposals, but who cares about a dozen different congress critters giving a dozen different ideas, none of which have a serious push even in their own party. You can't cover it in the media because it's just a shell game, if you criticize one they start talking about another. The Republican party has a whole news network devoted to promoting their views, if they were interested in passing a different model it would have been trivial to get the message out.

      The Republicans had three basic choices when Obama proposed mandate based healthcare reform:

      1) Enter the ACA discussion and negotiate some concessions like weakening the employer based system and allowing for catastrophic plans in exchange for support.

      2) Come up with a different model for fixing healthcare, promote the hell out of it, and convince the public why it's better. If you've got something that solves the problem of the uninsured, pre-existing conditions, and all these other problems than present it!

      3) Stand back and criticize the ACA without offering an alternative or any reasonable ground to enter negotiations with the objective of making Obama's must-pass legislation as unpopular as possible. This is the path they chose, they've succeeded in making the law very unpopular, but they've also ended up with a very Democratic version of what could have been a very Republican system.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    290. Re:As an outsider. by sjames · · Score: 1

      If the law results in business logic with too many exceptional conditions, particularly if the interpretation and understanding of the law is evolving during the coding process, it can easily lead to errors or consume all of the development resources, leaving no time for QA.

      A lot of that though, probably belongs at the feet of insurers, the masters of byzantine rules primarily designed to make sure they can find a way to deny coverage whenever they decide you're not a profitable customer (AKA, the real death panels).

    291. Re:As an outsider. by srichard25 · · Score: 2

      So you are claiming that the Democrats came into negotiations wanting something else, but they submitted a plan that they thought the Republicans would support. And when not a single Republican signed on to support it, they moved forward with that plan anyway??? Is that your take on history?

      Only in a liberal's mind can a bill passed without a single Republican vote be considered a "compromise".

    292. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      healthcare.gov debacle is "proof" that the law will never work? do you have any idea of the difference between the website and the law? you have zero logic comprehension skills, and shouldn't be making comments about whether the law will work or not. as an AC put it below: "You can't blame the law until it actually goes into effect and we see the results. Well you can blame the law but you'll just be another one of those haters you isn't using evidence based arguments.?"

    293. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does the Government force you to buy a car in the first place Dumb-ass?

    294. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1, Informative

      That is exactly what happened, and that is exactly what the GOP is about. You can't compromise with a brick wall. Read Lofgren's book... it should be an eye-opener for you that a senior GOP policy analyst with top-secret clearance, who worked on the hill for over 20 years quit in disgust. Of course, he's a "liberal" now. But he'll tell you, in his own words, the GOP became an apocalyptic cult.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    295. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The KY site is enrolling most of these people into Medicare/Medicaid, Not the exchanges. (so where does that money come from again?)

    296. Re: As an outsider. by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      But subsidizing insurance for people unable afford it comes close. Forcing insurance providers to provide real plans that aren't just available to scam people out of money without providing care helps too. There are plenty of cases where people discover that they can get a real insurance plan on the health care exchange for less money than they were paying for their scam plan.

      These people that aren't able to afford it aren't just going to stay out of the medical market. They're going to get sick and run up huge bills they can pay.

    297. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 1

      What free market exists when the government dictates by fiat what must be included in every product sold? Companies are free to add extra benefits (although that can lead to the gold-plated tax) but the base level has been raised for EVERYONE regardless of whether or not those benefits are of any use.

      And how do you price your policy for males when you're not legally allowed to separate the sexes in your pricing policy? The same policy has to be available to both sexes. In fact, since more of the added benefits are geared towards women their new policies, while also going up relative to their old ones, are increasing significantly less than an equal aged mans.

      The main difference in pricing comes from network, deductible and co-pay options, which directly impact out of pocket expenses.

      So if you were paying $200 a month prior, now that everyone's been tossed in the same pool and additional benefits have been forced, you're either going to pay more (national average increase is 41% according to Forbes) or take drastic hits to available hospitals and a massive increase in deductibles and co-pays.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    298. Re:As an outsider. by microbox · · Score: 1

      Read this. Just the opinion of a GOP insider who knows more about what happens on the hill than you do.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    299. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you're not a US Citizen"

      The whole world is aware. We all follow US politics. It's just so entertaining - like professional wrestling, but with slightly less violence.

      Victims of drone strikes may state differently.

    300. Re:As an outsider. by sjames · · Score: 1

      So what you're saying is that the old plan you liked was going to be changed one way or another by AETNA. Because of that it was no longer grandfathered. The fact is, if they WANTED to, they could continue to provide you the same value now as before. If you are getting a lesser value it would be because they freely chose to give you only the minimum they had to by law.

      Note that the value you saw before could be an illusion. It might be that the part of ACA they couldn't afford was the inability to renege on the agreement if it looked like you might get expensive.

    301. Re:As an outsider. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The right wants to use it to show the left is incompetent. The left seems to be using it to try to prove they don't blindly follow everything the president does and are blaming it all on him.

      No. The right is losing it's mind over the passage of the health insurance plan birthed by it's own think tank, the Heritage Foundation. The left still wants it's single payer, or at least a public option. And anyone who isn't a brain-dead partisan tribalist wonders how long we're going to have to endure this farce of Democrats hailing a Heritage Foundation plan as the greatest thing since Medicare, and the Republicans tearing the hair out over the passage of a Republican plan.

    302. Re:As an outsider. by sjames · · Score: 1

      The new insurance will cover one of prostate exams or gynecological exams per person. If they actually factored in the cost of both per person, they're being stupid or greedy.

    303. Re: As an outsider. by MickLinux · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and see where that got us. The constitution has 2842 of those words completely ignored. If you want people to follow directions, you have to be verbose.

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    304. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If compromises were being planned just to appease Republicans, yet not a single Republican was willing to sign the bill, why was the bill written with those compromises anyway???? What kind of sense does that make?

      It makes perfect sense, in a crazy way. You see, there are tons of Democrats who are overly concerned with bipartisanship, in part because the courtier press criticizes all Democrats who don't "reach across the aisle" while simultaneously giving a pass to hyper-partisan Republicans. One of the very first things Obama did after the recent debt ceiling debacle (in which, may I remind you, Republicans literally held the country hostage) was to toss out the idea of offering "grand bargain" compromises on social programs to Republicans -- right after Republicans had suffered one of their most resounding defeats in recent memory. (This is not the first time Obama has deliberately tried to sell out on that topic.)

      The other factor at work is that in a two-party system, when one party moves violently in one ideological direction, the other can move to occupy the void in order to pick up votes, and that is precisely what has happened in America. As Republicans have transformed themselves into a grotesque, neo-fascist, neo-confederate parody of the party which once proudly called itself the party of Lincoln, the Democrats have moved to the center-right. We do not have any kind of leftism remaining in national politics today. As a result, yes, it really is true that Democrats had to compromise with themselves to get that bill passed. "Blue Dog" (i.e. people who in a sane universe would be centrist Republicans) Democratic politicians couldn't be convinced to go along with any truly leftist healthcare reform bill. And even among the non-Blue Dogs, only a tiny handful even bothered seriously talking about ideas like single payer.

      So, what we got in the ACA was literally an old Heritage Foundation (that's a right wing think tank FYI) proposal, originally dreamt up in the late 1980s and pushed as a right-wing alternative to Hillary Clinton's healthcare reform proposal in the 1990s. (Remember that?) It's very right-wing policy in that it proposes to fix healthcare through the almighty power of the Holy Free Market.

      Which is why it's terribly amusing to see you morons run around screaming about communism and the bill being rammed through without talking to Republicans. It's your own fucking policy, but because a black dude (one "uppity" enough to get himself elected President) pushed it, and Democrats voted for it, suddenly it's the end of civilization as we know it.

      Honestly, just fuck off forever. The last 10 years have made it abundantly clear that there is no "there" there on the right -- no real ideas remaining, no calm determination to be a real patriot and help the country, nothing but a bunch of screaming tribalism, coded racism and misogyny (recently sliding over into naked open racism and misogyny), and "DURRR KILL DE GUBMINT BECOZ GUBMINT BAAAAD". You pieces of shit have lost me forever. I actually hoped for Bush to win way back in 2000, and now I see what a fool I was. Thanks for opening my eyes I guess?

    305. Re:As an outsider. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Do you need insurance to drive your car? Where I live you do.

      Auto insurance is mandated by the states, not the feds. Auto insurance is actually competitive - you don't see AAA or All State dominating entire regions of the country. And you don't have to deal the network crap that you do with insurance, either.

    306. Re:As an outsider. by Straif · · Score: 1

      The original 30+ million uninsured included Medicaid, Medicare and Chip eligible persons who were not enrolled, but still technically covered if anything happened. There were also a very large number of financially secure people who chose not to ensure. The actual number of involuntary uninsured was somewhere in the teens to low 20's (though some put that number even lower).

      The predictions for the rate of uninsured, after the ACA, by the CBO itself, is almost identical, 30million plus.

      The Medicare, Medicaid and Chip users should now be registered but the people who choose not to buy are still likely not to (the fine is unenforceable and a pittance compared to most yearly plan rates). But now you can add the relative poor, who even with subsidies cannot afford the increased plan prices.

      There is also a new group, those who were insured but can now play the insurance lotto. Since they cannot be denied coverage when needed, if they're willing to pay out of pocket for the waiting period between enrollment and coverage, they can simply cancel their plans and wait to see if anything catastrophic happens, then enroll. And by catastrophic I mean cancer not broken bone (which can often cost less to pay cash for than going through insurance anyway). So this person can save thousands a year and if something unforeseeable happens, pay their medical expenses for a couple months until their new policy takes affect. If they put even half of their normal premiums into a savings account, in most cases this would be a financial win for them.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    307. Re:As an outsider. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      No, a fraction of the Democrat party wanted single-payer.

      If by "fraction" you mean "over 50%", then sure. Even the Republic party members wanted a public option, when you told them what it would actually do and not that death panel bullshit.

      Oh? Cite? Last I heard

      Get your hearing checked.

      the Heritage plan was a 15+ year old idea that went out of style long before Obama entered office.

      Romneycare. Heard of it? Signed into law by a future GOP nominee for the presidency in 2006 when he was governor. The Heritage Foundation, and the rest of the GOP, had time to denounce and reject their own market-based plan with mandates years before Obama won the nomination, much less took office, much less sold out the public in favor of modeling the ACA on Romneycare. Literally.

      You people and your echo chambers...

      You partisan tribalists and your lack of self-awareness.

    308. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are zero free-market ideologues in the Democratic Party. Zero.

      I'm sorry you're so blind to political reality that you cannot see that the Democratic Party is center right wing, not leftist in any significant way. (And has been ever since Clintonian "triangulation" delivered the White House to Democrats back in the 1990s.) It may not be as much of a talking point for the center-right party of the USA, but you had better believe that free-market thinking rules the roost.

      And the ACA was passed without a singe Republican vote.

      Yeah, you know those things called elections? They do actually have meaning. If you can't win enough seats and the other side is sufficiently united, then sometimes you don't get a say. But the truly Kabuki quality of it all is that it didn't have to be that way. The ACA was a fundamentally Republican policy proposal (because, you know, it was originally designed by a right-wing Republican think tank), adopted by Democrats specifically in hopes of bipartisan appeal. But Republicans were instructed by their party's apparatus to vote in lockstep against it because of their total commitment to the farcical narrative where Obama and all associated with Obama are fifth column commie infiltrators from Kenya. Or something. Exactly what kind of invidious traitor he's supposed to be keeps shifting with the wind.

      In case you can't grasp it, which you probably can't because you sound like exactly the sort of idiot who laps that shit up, my point is that literally the only reason Republicans can even begin to claim that they didn't have a say in the ACA is that they absolutely refused to even try to have a say. From the very beginning, they took a hardline stance against what they once were proud to claim as their own idea, and they did this only because of who was proposing it this time around. Then, once it was passed without their help, they turned around and started pointing fingers for not having a say. Doublethink at its finest. Congratulations on your contribution to making "1984" become reality.

    309. Re:As an outsider. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Again with the selective story lines. When people say "Cadillac" plans, what they really mean is "decent plans that people would actually pay for, with reasonable deductibles".

      Secondly, that people will be discouraged from using those plans via the excise tax, under the cruel notion that having non-junk insurance is some kind of luxury.

      If Republicans weren't pathetic partisan hacks, they wouldn't have wasted years fighting the passage of their own health care plan, and then years trying to repeal it. They would have just taken Obama's own campaign ad from 2008, savaging McCain for wanting to tax health care benefits, and played it ad nauseum during the 2012 election. That they didn't tells you everything you need to know about how much they actually oppose Obomneycare.

    310. Re: As an outsider. by MickLinux · · Score: 1

      Don't let the trolls fool you. We in the US have had socialized medicine since the 20's , and as a result, unavailability of actual service is a common problem.

      Because our socialism was more right-wing in nature, limiting who and how many could practice medicine, often -- as by the law passed under Clinton-- solely to increase doctor's alseady sky-high salaries.

      As a result of our brand of socialized medicine, prices for medical care have risen fifteen percent per year sinc 1970. That is, prices are about 400 times what they had been, while other things--gasoline, for example, are only 5-10 times the price. So the healthcare sector has seized --mostly from the poor--40 times its rightful share of the wealth of the market.

      You can't do that without causing massive destruction. Thus, the AMA is likely going to be THE LEADING CAUSE OF UNTIMELY DEATH in the US in the 21st century. So much for the hypocritic oath.

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    311. Re:As an outsider. by slick7 · · Score: 0

      Everything Obama is a failure.

      --
      The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
    312. Re:As an outsider. by timeOday · · Score: 1
      What is the annual or lifetime max on your $86/mo plan? Isn't it pretty hard to imagine how that could possibly cover even the slim chance of you getting cancer and the resulting multi-millions in medical bills?

      Here is a quote from forbes.com:

      The average cost of healthcare for a typical American family of four in an employer-sponsored health plan in 2012 was $20,728. On average, employers paid $12,144 of that total cost while employees paid the rest.

      That averages out to $1600/mo. That is how much a real health care plan costs. (Those numbers align almost perfectly with what I see on my own paystub, by the way). Those are numbers from before Obamacare.

    313. Re:As an outsider. by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      It violates .... most likely several portions of HIPPA.

      What is up with half the posters on slashdot just parroting Fox/GOP talking points? Most of which are highly misleading or flat out lies.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/10/25/claims-that-obamacare-website-violates-health-privacy-reveals-embarrassing-fact-gop-does-not-understand-hipaa-or-obamacare/

    314. Re:As an outsider. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      That is pretty much true. I'm not a gamer. I like to play a game now and then, but I don't view computers as gaming machines. I won't pay fifty or sixty dollars for a game, and I certainly won't jump through the hoops necessary to make a game work, on Windows, Linux, or any other platform. I won't invest in a gaming platform.

      The things I expect a computer to do, however, are pretty easy to do on Linux. Crunch numbers, communicate with the outside world, watch multimedia, solve moderately complex problems, solve more complex problems - you know, COMPUTING. Games are fun and relaxing, not a goal in and of themselves.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    315. Re:As an outsider. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      C'mon, put a hint of common sense on. Not everyone is a completely irresponsible jerk when he is under the influence of judgement or otherwise impairing substances. Else we should outlaw a lot of common cough medicine quickly!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    316. Re:As an outsider. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Sorry - you lose out on the FDA. FDA routinely approves of drugs that are later recalled. Restless leg syndrome, anyone? It wouldn't take you any effort to find a couple dozen other examples. Your food is contaminated with food colorings which have been blamed for behavioural problems including ADD. Your food is also contaminated with hormones and antibiotics. Then there are genetically modified foods, which should be labeled. You can make a reasonable argument that GMO's are safe - there isn't any proof yet either way. But, they should be LABELED so that Mom can decide whether to feed GMO's to her kids.

      OSHA? That one is very highly debatable. Perhaps you confuse OSHA of 30 years ago with today's OSHA. The vast majority of OSHA's "investigations" today involve state employees investigating complaints, which are just sloughed off. Only in high profile cases does OSHA send in federal agents.

      NHTSA? When I was in school, I think that maybe you could brag on NHTSA. Today - I guess they are doing their job fairly well, but you don't get to brag on them. Why haven't they taken the lead on cell phone technology as it pertains to driving? Every single day, "accidents" happen because some idiot can't wait until he is parked to text someone.

      Government CAN regulate effectively, sometimes. But, government DOES NOT regulate effectively very often.

      Salutes for your dismissal of government regulation of banking. Apparently, you are aware that bankers just buy the regulations they want . . .

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    317. Re:As an outsider. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I don't know about that - the assassin seemed to be as healthy and happy at the end of the movie as the crew of the Serenity. And, despite being the evil sinister bastard all through the movie, he seemed to adapt to the new reality in which he found himself.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    318. Re:As an outsider. by lgw · · Score: 1

      OK, but don't higher deductables make that worse? Don't higher plan premiums make insurance harder to afford?

      Noble intentions count for nothing here. It seems like in practice, things got worse, not better. (I want to live in theory, everything works perfectly there!)

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    319. Re:As an outsider. by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Let's look at the latest issue of the world's premier medical journal*, the New England Journal of Medicine. Where do their authors come from? The U.S., Korea, Germany, Belgium, Canada, Spain, France, the U.K.....

      Gee, despite what the Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers of America told you, lots of people all around the world do medical research.

      For another way to look at it, count the Nobel laureates in medicine http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/

      Bottom line: While the U.S. does a lot of medical research, we're actually not an island of civilization in a world of barbarian freeloaders. There are other societies around the world where scientists (and their governments) put a lot of effort into not only practical but basic scientific research, and come up with important medical developments, like, oh, uh, penicillin and, uh, the structure of DNA. Science is a worldwide enterprise, and everybody pulls their share. Imagine that, there are kids in Europe who are studying Darwin and Newton just like we do. And even in Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_Endo_(biochemist) and China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemesinin#History

      http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1306494
      A Phase 2 Trial of Ponatinib in Philadelphia Chromosome–Positive Leukemias
      J.E. Cortes and Others
      Address reprint requests to Dr. Cortes at the Department of Leukemia, University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX 77030, or at jcortes@mdanderson.org.
      The authors' affiliations are as follows: the Department of Leukemia, University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston (J.E.C., H.K.); Seoul St. Mary's Hospital, Catholic University of Korea, Seoul, South Korea (D.-W.K.); H. Lee Moffitt Cancer Center, Tampa, FL (J.P.-I.); Charité–Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Berlin (P.C.), III. Medizinische Klinik, Universitätsmedizin Mannheim, Mannheim (M.C.M.), and Abteilung Hämatologie und Onkologie, Universitätsklinikum Jena, Jena (A.H.) — all in Germany;

      http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1301064
      Intrarenal Resistive Index after Renal Transplantation
      M. Naesens and Others
      From the Departments of Nephrology and Renal Transplantation (M.N., L.H., K.C., D.K., P.E., B.B., B.S., B.M., H.J., C.M., K.D.V., Y.V.), Pathology (E.L.), Radiology (L.D.W., F.C., R.O.), and Abdominal Transplant Surgery (J.P., D.M.), University Hospitals Leuven, and the Departments of Microbiology and Immunology (M.N., K.C., D.K., P.E., B.B., B.S., B.M., J.P., D.M., K.D.V., Y.V.) and Imaging and Pathology (E.L., L.D.W., F.C., R.O.), KU Leuven — both in Leuven, Belgium.

      http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1215541
      Dolutegravir plus Abacavir–Lamivudine for the Treatment of HIV-1 Infection
      S.L. Walmsley and Others
      From the University Health Network, Toronto (S.L.W.); Hospital Clinico Universitario, Santiago de Compostela (A.A.), and Hospital General de Elche and Universidad Miguel Hernández, Alicante (F.G.) — both in Spain; Centre Hospitalier Universitaire Saint-Pierre, Brussels (N.C.); Dr. Victor Babes Infectious and Tropical Diseases Hospital, Bucharest, Romania (D.D.); Medizinisches Versorgungszentrum Karlsplatz HIV Research and Clinical Care Center, Munich, Germany (A.E.); Centre Hospitalier Régional d'Orléans, Orléans, France (L.H.); Antiviral Therapy Unit, Ospedali Riuniti, Bergamo, Italy (F.M.); University of Nebraska Medical Center, Omaha (U.S.); GlaxoSmithKline, Stockley Park, United Kingdom (C.G.); and GlaxoSmithKline, Research Triangle Park, NC (K.P., B.W., S.M., G.N.).

    320. Re:As an outsider. by lgw · · Score: 1

      Yes, not saying every last advance was from America, just that most biochem research companies and most medical device research companies are here, and early adopters foot the bill for research. National plans don't usually pay for new expensive treatments that have only worked in trials, they usually wait for the other guy to be the early adopter.

      Not to say we won't still have early adopters, as the most likely outcome in America is that everyone who can afford it will move to cash-only "boutique healthcare" with better care than the rest of the system, but insurance won't help there so there will be less money for that research (not none, but less).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    321. Re:As an outsider. by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Most of the medical research in the world happens in America. Of course care is more expensive here. Of course care will be cheaper when we inevitably stop paying for that technological advancement. Cheaper short term.

      Long term technology is everything for price, and if we were motivated by more than short-term greed, we'd favor whatever system produced the best technological progress, rather than the cheapest care this decade.

      A large part -- not most -- of the medical research in the world happens in America. The main reason for that is that we once had a bipartisan consensus to give the National Institutes of Health and National Cancer Institute a lot of money and leave them alone. (Nixon's good deed.) That worked out very well. People with heart disease live about 10 or 20 years longer than they did in 1950. Unfortunately that consensus is unraveling. Thanks to tax-cutting mania, the NIH's budget was cut about 5% last year.

      There's also a lot of important research going on around the world. The American pharmaceutical companies come up with new drugs, and they'll do a study to prove it works, get it past the FDA, and sell it for $100,000 a year. The Europeans do studies to see whether the new drugs are better than the old drugs, whether they're worth the money (you know, free market, Adam Smith and all), and how to use them to get the best results with the fewest side effects. (Actually, most of the European research is done in collaboration with the Americans.)

      Most of the costs of research doesn't affect the bill you pay your doctor or your insurance plan. If anything, it comes out of your taxes. A researcher with an NIH grant comes up with a new drug, his university sells the rights to develop it to a pharmaceutical company, and the pharmaceutical company sells it for as much as they can get. They also sell the same drugs to national health systems around the world, so foreigners pay for it that way. But don't blame the Europeans if you have to pay $100,000 for a drug that their national health system has negotiated down to $25,000.

    322. Re:As an outsider. by meburke · · Score: 1

      I've only been keeping track since the 2014 figures came out, and my informal scoring should not be a benchmark. I neglected to mention that the increase averages about 2.3 times the current coverage. (230% for non-mathematicians.)

      However, you make a good point, and I 'm looking up statistics as we speak: Multiple sources say that the average health care costs increased annually from a little over 9%/year in the early 2000's to around 4%/year in the years preceding 2010. The statistics on health insurance costs kept pace increasing about 1-2% higher than healthcare costs.

      There are some questions to be answered before just accepting those statistics; Is the cost increase due to economic conditions like inflation? is it due to demographics like people my age incurring more severe illnesses? There are expenditures that may be being currently amortized but intended for future consumption. (For instance, MD Anderson has at least 2 totally empty buildings, empty for multiple years, that are intended to provide services for future patients.) So there are a LOT of possible contributions to the previous increase in healthcare and insurance costs.

      However, it seems apparent that the ACA rollout has caused a disproportionate lift in healthcare insurance costs.

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
    323. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some citations please. How many millions are finding out that their cheapest options under the ACA costs twice as much, and have higher deductibles? All I've seen are anecdotal stories on Fox News, that turn out to be either making deceitful claims, or, perhaps more charitably, are greatly mistaken about their options when 3rd parties not associated with the propaganda network examine their circumstances.

      An Economics professor at UMich made a chart based on estimates from Jon Gruber, a former economics advisor to Mitt Romney that lays out how people are "Obamacare Losers vs. Winners" The only conclusion I can draw is that the media, driven by profit-motive sensationalism under a 24/7 news cycle, has focused their attention on a disproportionate number of stories where people end up paying more... while glossing over the fact that their coverages are getting better, with no possibility of being cheated by the insurance industry for 'pre-existing conditions'.

      I'm sure you are dead set against the ACA regardless whether or not you think people are getting a fair deal. And your confirmation bias leads you to believe that any evidence that supports your views is valid and any evidence that refutes it is part of some left wing conspiracy... but did you ever stop and think that the same industry that disqualifies paying customers for coverage of births due to a finding that the pregnancy was a pre-existing condition.. that they might not be playing fairly?

      A lot of these people that are being told their plans are canceled and that their other options are more expensive are being told that by their insurance companies, who aren't offering them anything of comparable price, yes, but also aren't informing them that they could find less expensive options on the open exchanges set up by the ACA. They are just telling the customer about other options offered under their brand.

      People living as high as 400% of the federal poverty line ($78,000 for a family of 3, or $46K for an individual) get tax credits. Meaning that 6/7 people expected to sign up for the exchange are expected to save in the neighborhood of $5300 per year ion their taxes.

    324. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am from Canada so I am not very familiar with the ACA.

      Here is the part that I do not understand: Why was the website needed at all? Aren't people buying these plans from private corporations? Why do they need to go to a single website? We buy all sorts of things on the web without having to go through a single website, right? If the single website was a useful thing (let's say ... in order to compare the plans), wouldn't it have made more sense to let the private sector fill the void? At the end of the day, the customers are going to be buying these plans from private health care providers. Why would the federal governemnt fund a website in order to help people buy these plans?

    325. Re:As an outsider. by meburke · · Score: 1

      The 9% number comes from multiple sources that say that the additional cost of providing insurance to qualified employees is around 8.9% (CBO) to 9.5% (Aetna and others). On the other hand, FactCheck has arguments that indicate the portion of the increase due to ACA is only about 2-3% http://www.factcheck.org/2011/10/factchecking-health-insurance-premiums/ . IMO, even 2-3% can be a burden if added to other increasing expenses, but 1.) I don't know where the margin is, and 2.) We are talking about estimates (which, by definition, lack precision).

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
    326. Re:As an outsider. by meburke · · Score: 1

      Nicely said.

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
    327. Re:As an outsider. by iserlohn · · Score: 1

      Then maybe your neighbor should have had fewer kids? Or maybe he should do something worth as much as it costs to feed his family?

      On my! What assumptions! How about if my neighbour needed to take care of her live-in father, who has Parkinson's? Where does that leave your argument? Can I choose whether a loved one is sick or not, or whether you have someone close that you have to care for?

      You seem to think naively that humans are rational economic actors and we have complete control over our situations in life. I'm not so sure.

      Find a company with a large low-paid workforce. Now look at how much they pay in taxes. Now look at how much their employees receive in government benefits. You may notice that the former quantity is greater than the latter, typically much greater. What value is the government adding to this transaction, exactly?

      The same companies that avoids tax by funnelling funds to overseas subsidiaries and by making complicated financial transactions to shelter income from the tax authorities? The same companies that get millions of dollars of tax breaks from the state so that they can open up a massive distribution center that brings one or two hundred minimum wage jobs?

      You don't care that there are more poor people, as long as they're all equally poor?

      That's the opposite of what I said. Companies should pay for workers, not the taxpayer. Not in million dollar tax breaks in exchange for low-paid jobs. Definitely not for companies that rake in huge profit while their typical front-line worker barely scraps by, with no health insurance coverage, and relying on food stamps to get by.
      .

    328. Re:As an outsider. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      I don't know about that - the assassin seemed to be as healthy and happy at the end of the movie as the crew of the Serenity. And, despite being the evil sinister bastard all through the movie, he seemed to adapt to the new reality in which he found himself.

      I'm not sure politicians are that enlightened :-)

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    329. Re:As an outsider. by meburke · · Score: 1

      I have another reason for opposing Obamacare: It is immoral. "Thou shalt not steal'"

      Suppose you woke up tomorrow and the Constable was towing away your car.

      The reason is that the widow woman down the street can't afford to buy one, she needs one to go to work, and yours is handy. Besides, you have job, you have money, you can obviously buy another if you want. Are you happy now? Are you better off now? Is Society better off?

      And since the Constable and title people don't work for nothing, about every 5th car they seize must be sold to pay their expenses.

      And here's the kicker: If YOU seized someone else's car to give to another less-privileged person, you would be arrested for theft.

      IMO, since you cannot authorize another person to do something that would be illegal for you to do, you cannot authorize government to do it either.

      So, one of my favorite stories is about Davy Crockett's "Not yours to give" speech to Congress: http://www.fee.org/library/detail/not-your-to-give-2#axzz2k1CYkjKQ

      Unfortunately, it is not true: http://crockettincongress.blogspot.com/2009/10/not-yours-to-give-fable-re-examined.html

      However, the proposition and conclusions seem to be correct, and I agree with the sentiment.

      --
      "The mind works quicker than you think!"
    330. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are countries with no government. Move there and live in paradise. I suppose you want everyone else to pay for civilization for you though. I'm kinda libertarian, and I think you are barking mad.

    331. Re:As an outsider. by Lendrick · · Score: 1

      Healthcare.gov needs to work only in the republican-controlled states where they implemented no state website at all. In other words, if you live in a state where you have to use the national site, the republicans in your state already failed you in a bigger way than the democrats in the federal government, because they produced *absolutely nothing at all*.

    332. Re:As an outsider. by Lendrick · · Score: 1

      It's interesting. Depending on which comment I'm reading that's accusing me of parroting lies by the democrats, the rollout in NY is doing both good and bad.

      Also, with your states are doing great attitude, you almost sound like a Tea Partier talking about how states and localities can do things better than the Feds. States Rights!

      Canada's medical system works because they leave it up to the provinces to implement it. I'd be all about a federal mandate that the states provide single payer health care. I'm sure I fit right in with the Tea Party in that respect, huh?

    333. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose. I know that before my wife was pregnant, both her an I were on my insurance. Our maximum out of pocket deductible was $3,000 per person per calendar year. After the birth of our son, we had a limited time (30 days I think) to upgrade our insurance from employee spouse to the employee family plan. The total bill for the birth was $6,000 (3k for wife, 3k for son) with the rest of the (majority) tab picked up by insurance.

      As as a side note, I do have a question to poke. It varies by state, but if yours allows for insurance coverage of an abortion, will they still charge the unborn as an "individual". Being that sharks shit in the ocean, I'm willing to bet those fuckers would.

    334. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the ACA is so bad, just remember, it's a conservative idea.

      Then why didn't a single Republican vote for it!??!!

      Seriously, go choke on a cock you fucking moron!

    335. Re:As an outsider. by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      In theory.

      In practise, the Government health service is so big that the pharma companies have to seriously negotiate lower prices.
      As a result, in Canada drug costs are but a small fraction of what they are in the "free market" U.S.

    336. Re:As an outsider. by kbolino · · Score: 1

      How about if my neighbour needed to take care of her live-in father, who has Parkinson's?

      Prior to the development of modern medicine, your neighbor's father would simply have died. The treatment for Parkinson's disease is expensive. Someone has to pay that cost; if your neighbor decides that it's worth her time to pay it, that's her prerogative. But what right does she or he have to conscript the rest of us to pay for his treatment?

      You seem to think naively that humans are rational economic actors and we have complete control over our situations in life. I'm not so sure.

      Your lack of control over some of your circumstances does not extend to you the right to take control over some of mine.

      The same companies that avoids tax by funnelling funds to overseas subsidiaries and by making complicated financial transactions to shelter income from the tax authorities?

      No one is obligated to pay any more tax than the tax man is capable of collecting.

      The same companies that get millions of dollars of tax breaks from the state so that they can open up a massive distribution center that brings one or two hundred minimum wage jobs?

      Perhaps you ought to ask your elected officials why they have created such onerous taxes that businesses are only inclined to open shop when they are given discounts from those taxes.

      Companies should pay for workers, not the taxpayer.

      The companies are paying the workers, and they are paying taxes. But the government is taking a greater sum of money from the company than it is paying back to its workers in the form of welfare. So in effect, the government is actually restricting the company's ability to pay its employees more. Then you turn around and blame the company for not paying enough?

      Not in million dollar tax breaks in exchange for low-paid jobs.

      The alternative to those low-paid jobs is no work. Is that better? Who is going to fund the welfare program when no companies can afford to operate? Moreover, we are rapidly approaching the point where automation will be more cost effective than most forms of menial labor. Your solution to this problem is to accelerate the transformation by driving the cost of labor up? Or will you levy a "robot tax" in order to ensure an economic death spiral?

      Definitely not for companies that rake in huge profit

      Do you know what profit is? It's reward for investment. Without investment, there is no economic activity. The great famines and purges of the early Soviet Union were a reflection of what happens when you eliminate profit: no one is inclined to do anything because there is no longer any potential for reward. If the workers are worth a greater share of that reward, then it is entirely their prerogative to either bargain with their employer or form a competing company. I always find it funny to see a poster where a "greedy capitalist" who contributes nothing is laughing while he "steals" 90% of the value of a hard-working man's labor. If his labor is so essential to the process, then why does the laborer do it so cheaply?

      That's the opposite of what I said.

      What you said is that you don't care if more people become unemployed, because unemployed people deserve the benefits they receive. That's question-begging at best (they "need it" because you forced them to), and at worst it is exactly what I said: you don't care if more people become poor (dependent on welfare) as long as they are all equally poor (their standard of living being determined by the welfare benefits). There will always be relative poverty; no matter how much you pay people on welfare, presuming that it is more less uniform and based upon "need", then the group of people who is dependent upon it will always be the poorest group of people.

    337. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The data which would show whether or not this truly applies to "millions of people" aren't yet publicly available. I think lgw has clearly overstated the case. But it is not hard to find anecdotes from sources other than Fox News.

      e.g.:

      "After receiving a letter from her insurer that her plan was being discontinued, Deborah Persico, a 58-year-old lawyer in the District, found a comparable plan on the city’s new health insurance exchange. But her monthly premium, now $297, would be $165 higher, and her maximum out-of-pocket costs would double."Washington Post, 2013-11-03.

      Anyway, so far as politics go, it is perception that matters. It may be true that millions of people are being shifted from crappier insurance to more robust insurance. Notwithstanding this objective advantage, the people with crappier insurance generally did not, do not, and will not know about the deficiencies of their former plans. We should expect that many will become rather upset at being forced to pay thousands more per year for a product that they perceive as having no added value.

      The subsidies will make a small premium increase irrelevant to some people, but (as you noted) these subsidies are income-dependent, and many people will not benefit from them at all -- which further feeds the politically damaging "winners and losers" narrative.

    338. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is totally true. I've been intimately involved with this project for a while and am currently working 80+ hours a week try to get this piece of junk stable. Most of the blame in the broken functionality lies with incompetent management "driving that train high on cocaine", a convoluted architecture and lack of the most basic discipline for software development on the CGIFEDERAL side, but with a heavy helping of incompetence by the hosting provider Terremark. There are basically no unit tests, no fully automated builds, no coding standards, and up until recently no monitoring tools to see where the bottlenecks are located. The system has data residing in Oracle, Marklogic, Terracotta, and who knows how many other data stores (which virtually none of the developers know how to use adequately), with overly complicated Jboss SOA-P layers strung together with persistent JMS queues. The front end javascript is total garbage as everyone knows, but it stays godawful-ugly all the way to the very back of the programming stack, and right on through to the completely oversubscribed and under-provisioned infrastructure. We'll see how the new management structure put in place with Optum/QSSI changes things, but there's no chance this thing is fixed by December due to the mountain of technical debt acquired over the past year. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely some complexity to this system, but that complexity requires MORE discipline and management leadership, not less. There are some good technical people involved, but apart from the Obama campaign website team, none of them have enough authority to overrule the leadership trying to save face while keeping on sucking that contract teet.

      Personally I think it's shitty policy, but its going to fail miserably because of incompetence before anyone ever gets to the point of evaluating the shitty policy.

    339. Re: As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not ponies, but a screen idle animation, a clock, a list of unread emails or something

    340. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good job comparing apples to zebras. You need car insurance because you are a liability to OTHER drivers. You could neglectfully kill someone, take away a family's income earner, and leave the rest of the family stranded and struggling to survive. Of course, because most people don't have a few million dollars in their bank account to transfer to the harmed party, there needs to be a way of ensuring they can be taken care of in such a circumstance.

      Healthcare on the other hand, poses no threat to others. If you are fat, lazy, and die early, then goodbye. Should have taken better care of yourself. If you are truly disadvantaged through no fault of your own (bad luck in the gene pool), then there are charities and other voluntary programs to help. If you want to make a case and stretch it and include cost-shifting from providing services to people who can't afford it as a way of "impacting others", then let me point out that the governement imposed EMTALA the act and that is the only reason that the cost shifting occurs. So yes, theoretically, someone else's health can be a liability to me, but only because the government forces it to be that way.

    341. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the crackhead mayor in Canada

    342. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh shut up. We don't have single payer.

    343. Re:As an outsider. by Lendrick · · Score: 1

      Actually, I'm not parroting anything. Given that the state sites work, it's pretty fucking obvious that the fact that the federal site doesn't work isn't due to a fundamental problem with the ACA. No one told me to say that. On the other hand, what the parent post was saying is the same bullshit that's been coming out of Fox News for the past couple of weeks.

      I don't need my opinions handed down from on high, because they don't require mental gymnastics to justify them.

    344. Re:As an outsider. by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      What you describe is health insurance. Health care is something different.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    345. Re:As an outsider. by AJH16 · · Score: 1

      That is exactly my point though. If they negotiate lower prices, where does research come from? There isn't enough funds to do the research that produced the drugs (which incidentally is why costs in America go up, because they have to recover the research costs somewhere.)

      Say the drug costs 10 cents a pill to physically produce, if the government says they'll only pay 20 cents per pill, it's still something towards the cost of developing and makes no sense to simply ignore, but if it cost a billion dollars to produce, they are never ever ever going to be able to cover the cost of developing it at that "deal".

      The only way around it would be to cooperate, but that's just investing in their own going out of business if someone else happens to come up with a cheaper way to produce the result and ends up getting the entire market, so the market is forced to be both highly cheap and highly anti-cooperative and that isn't sustainable. Either the quality and quantity of development or the cost has to give.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    346. Re:As an outsider. by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      The issue at hand is the website PLUS the fact that insurance premiums are going up for nearly everyone, along with deductibles going down (Not just the 5% of individual plans, which is the current version of the truth, that is a lie) PLUS the fact that there is no assurance that once you sign up you'll actually be able to get HealthCare.

      Our group insurance is going up 20%, with double the deductible and lower co-pays for everything. It is not a "Better Plan than the one we had". Some companies deferred this pain, that they knew was coming, by changing the plan renewal dates into next year.

      Yesterday, the Administration eliminated the high risk pool, meaning that for all practical purposes, a set of pre-existing conditions have been defined that will prevent you from getting Obamacare.

      I think the biggest issue for your average American consumer is that they were lied to, about everything, and there is zero remorse coming out of Obama's mouth.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    347. Re:As an outsider. by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      The state websites are not working all that great either....

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    348. Re:As an outsider. by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      No, it started from the botched attempt by the Clintons to implement Healthcare.

      Romney care started with THREE YEARS of bipartisan meetings before the law was written. The lie that ObamaCare is RomneyCare is just that, a lie.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    349. Re:As an outsider. by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      They dumped the hgh risk pool out of Obamacare yesterday. So surprise, they brought pre-existing conditions right back in.

      "Better Coverage"? ACCORDING TO WHO? Our new group plan is 20% more expensive, with higher deductibles, and lower co-pays. How is that BETTER?

      It's only better if you are not an evil rich person, that ObamaCare defines as anyone making more than FIFTY THOUSAND A YEAR.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    350. Re:As an outsider. by Kubla+Kahhhn! · · Score: 1

      I'd also bet that among all these insane number of awarded contracts, none was to a bug testing firm.

    351. Re:As an outsider. by 4partee · · Score: 1

      You try to program when specs are to do what I meant to say.

    352. Re:As an outsider. by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      It seems like a giant project that was hurried, kind of like a Windows Vista.

      That is a lot like Vista.

      Isn't it getting gradually fixed?

      You mean like Vista?

    353. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are being STOOOOOOPID, Africans could barely cope with using buttons, you think Chinese are masters in computing but are NOT, and the same goes for all kinds of Indians. You think COMPUTING IS A WON BATTLE AND IT ALL SAYS IT IS A BATTLE BEING LOST AND DIMINISHED. What do you reply to this?

    354. Re:As an outsider. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Yes I did, you have zero clue as to how long I have had them for insurance.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    355. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For example a person to pump gas. A service that might pay for itself at if the attendant is paid $2 and hour. At $8 an hour the company for goes that service. Now can you live on $2 an hour no way and how many takers would the company have? No idea. It could work for a high school student as a part time job.

      There are gas stations in New Jersey with 20 pumps and about 4-6 employees pumping it, checking oil, wiping windows, etc. who get paid about $12-$15/hr. Some are high school students but many are in their 20's, 30's and 40's. Oh yeah and the gas is about $0.20/gal less than neighboring states with self-serve gas stations.

      It's possible. There's so much profit, much much more is possible. Wake up.

    356. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      think of the ACA and its 1,800 pages as the high level spec.

      Then think of the 20,000 pages of rules and regulations as the detailed spec.

      Now add user interface, useability and 36 states on top of that, and we wonder why it doesn't work.

      So here's something to think about, if the federal government with $1bn, thousands of contractors and 3 years cannot get a website to work, how the hell will they manage healthcare for 300 million?

      Also please explain to me how 22,000 pages of law and regulations, 59 new departments, 16,000 IRS agents and federal oversight of this ACA will REDUCE healthcare costs?

    357. Re:As an outsider. by Ramtek · · Score: 0

      Thank you for providing actual facts instead of all thie partisan ranting.

    358. Re:As an outsider. by Tyler+Durden · · Score: 1

      It's easy to believe that you're happy with what you have when you haven't experienced any other options.

      --
      Happy people make bad consumers.
    359. Re:As an outsider. by romons · · Score: 1

      "a badly conceived law could be a reason for the poor performance of the site if it puts overly burdensome constraints on the system." the law is a set of rules to apply. Nothing more. That is no reason for broken code. If you are talking about adding a second or three to a responce, you would be right.

      The law is not necessarily a logical or consistent system.

      If you had to write a billing system for the Canadian health care system, it would be easy. You just pay everything that's covered.

      If you have to write a billing system for the American health care system, it's complicated. Different people have different levels of subsidy, deductibles, co-payments, eligibility, etc. Is psychotherapy covered? Is chiropractic covered? For how long? It depends on the state. When somebody goes to the hospital, it can take a month for them to figure out their bills and reconcile the mistakes. If you can't figure out the actual charges by hand, how can you write a program to do it automatically?

      Thankfully, they aren't writing a billing system for american healthcare. They are portaling through to web data put up by insurers, and saving declarations for use in providing rebates to those insurers. It is just the sales and rebates they need to handle. I'm fairly sure that the insurance companies and doctors still handle everything else you mention.

      Remember, ACA is NOT government sponsored healthcare. It is mandates to insurers to only charge a certain amount and cover certain things (these are good for consumers), and rebates to those insured who do not have the means to pay for insurance (these are also good for consumers, particularly low income consumers). The website also needs to determine whether people are eligible for medicaid, but it then forwards them to the already existing medicaid system.

      --
      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
    360. Re:As an outsider. by romons · · Score: 1

      The Republicans were excluded from writing the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare). The law was not written in committee, it was created in partisan meetings. This was possible because Democrats controlled the house, senate, and the presidency. They also had a super majority in the Senate so they did not need a single Republican vote. They did it this way so they did not have to make any compromises to Republicans, they only needed to make compromises with Democrats to pass the law.

      That is false. You are rewriting history. I don't know if you can remember back to when the law was being written, but there was a huge push by Obama to get bipartisan support. Most democrats (including me) were faulting Obama for caving in on so much to get this bipartisan support. However, the Republican tactic was to bait them with an apparent desire to cooperate, and then to pull support at the last minute. They did this again and again, forcing more and more complexity into the law, and obstructing a public option.

      Sadly, when it came time to vote for the law they had helped create, the Republicans balked, fearing the conservatives, who were still busy mounting primaries against anybody who cooperated with Democrats. So, even Olympia Snowe failed to vote for it. She had been the Democrat's last hope of getting something they could call bipartisan.

      Politics as usual in the new millenia. So, if Republicans want to fix the problems they see, they will now need to get both a president and congress, or 2/3 of congress, enough to overcome any veto. I don't think this will happen for many years, if ever. So, detractors would be advised to get used to the idea that the ACA will be around. They had lots of leverage in the senate, they just misused it, thinking they could sway public opinion. They got a short term gain out of it in the midterms, but will now need to live with the law for a long time.

      --
      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
    361. Re:As an outsider. by romons · · Score: 1

      But everybody is covered in Canada. There is just some confusion about who is doing the covering.

      However, does anybody die of breast cancer in Canada because they can't afford insurance? How many bankruptcies occur in Canada due to medical bills? These things both happen with alarming frequency in the US, even to people who think they are currently insured. A lifetime or yearly cap can kill you after a cancer diagnosis, after costs take your house and your savings, so your survivors are left in poverty. ACA does away with lifetime caps to prevent this. No wonder Republicans are against it. More democrats will live to vote against their mean-spirited policies.

      --
      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
    362. Re:As an outsider. by romons · · Score: 1

      Well - let's examine this idea.

      Let us suppose that General Motors is incapable of either putting up a website, or of contracting that job out to someone who is competent. Just suppose that General Motors has zero presence on today's internet. None. They are so clueless, that they don't see the need to invest the resources into an online presence. Just pretend that to be true.

      Do you really think that such clueless fools could possibly build a safe, reliable automobile? Do you really?

      That is what we are seeing with ACA. It's perfectly alright that none of the people in politics understand how to put up a website. What is unforgivable, is that they have no idea how to go about hiring competent people to put up their site.

      If they are incapable of attracting and hiring competent people to perform one job, what in the HELL makes anyone think that they can find competent people to perform another job?

      The government is NOT selling insurance that they provide on the website. They are selling insurance that is provided by a company that has years of experience providing insurance. So, your analogy is misguided.

      --
      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
    363. Re:As an outsider. by romons · · Score: 1

      No it's like saying that you can't even buy a car because the website is broken, that the car you have is being taken away and if you don't work this out by a deadline you will have to pay a fine. But thanks for the asshat point of view and the asshats that modded you up

      You can buy the policies directly from the insurance companies if you don't care about subsidies.

      I am paying for COBRA, and the new unsubsidised costs were substantially less than the COBRA plan I am paying for. Since I have a preexisting condition, I could not purchase insurance from the private market before ACA, and was in danger of losing coverage in July 2014, which would probably have meant bankruptcy or death (or both) for me. The requirement to sell me insurance, and the end of lifetime/yearly caps were enough to save my life, or at least keep my wife out of poverty after I die.

      --
      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
    364. Re:As an outsider. by romons · · Score: 1

      Where does the subsidy money come from?

      Here is a link that talks about it.

      --
      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
    365. Re:As an outsider. by romons · · Score: 1

      Where does the subsidy money come from?

      Unicorns, Leprechauns, and Cthulhu...

      Actually, the tea party is NOT paying for these subsidies!

      --
      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
    366. Re:As an outsider. by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      Secondly, that people will be discouraged from using those plans via the excise tax

      Putting a floor on a market forces the minimum plan premium higher -- "Cadillac plans" (which already have a definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_insurance_plan) are effectively being mandated. Namely, you won't be able to get a "low premium" plan, unless you're being partially subsidized due to low income.

      under the cruel notion that having non-junk insurance is some kind of luxury.

      I liked my cheap insurance. It performed the exact function it was meant for, namely insurance for unforeseen catastrophes. instead, I'm now forced to pay for maternity and a whole host of other things, whether I'm going to use them or not -- perhaps you should look up the definition of "insurance".

      If Republicans weren't pathetic partisan hacks, they wouldn't have wasted years fighting the passage of their own health care plan, and then years trying to repeal it.

      Sigh, I'm not even going to try. You're an idiot. That is all.

    367. Re:As an outsider. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The problem with your position is that when people kill themselves through drugs, they often take others with them. Cough medicine actually has another purpose so the risks are weighed.

      None of the scenarios I mentioned are not out of the norm as they have been behind high profile or major fatality accidents within the past 10-20 years or so. In Chicago alone, 2 train derailments have been linked to high blood levels of Marijuana and one had crystal meth in his system in the 90's when he parked a truck on a RR crossing. The Good Will building that just collapsed about a year ago was because of a mistake a crane operator made while working on a building next door- who BTW, had a high blood concentration of Marijuana.

      More people are killed or suffer serious health issues every year from motor vehicle accidents than from Transfats yet we seek to outlaw transfats.

    368. Re:As an outsider. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Then maybe your neighbor should have had fewer kids?

      Maybe you could try not being a sociopath?

      Or maybe he should do something worth as much as it costs to feed his family?

      Like going to school to get a degree in something "worthwhile" only to end up back at Taco Bell because no one his hiring in his field, so you can sneer at him a second time for having student loan debt? Have you tried not being an elitist?

      Find a company with a large low-paid workforce. Now look at how much they pay in taxes.

      Typically very little.

      What value is the government adding to this transaction, exactly?

      What is the point of this non sequitur, exactly? It's not rocket science: you are paying more in taxes to support social services for low wage workers because they are paid so little. If they were paid more, they would need less government assistance, and you would pay less taxes.

      As long as there is no slavery in law or in fact

      A necessitous man is not a free man.

      then the workers are getting paid the least they will accept and the most the company will pay. That's fair.

      That's what your sociopathic predecessors said about children working in coal mines. No, it's not fair that someone would have to work at a Taco Bell counter for 24/7/365 for a few centuries to make what the CEO of Yum brands does in one.

      You don't care that there are more poor people, as long as they're all equally poor?

      Another non-sequitur. Most of your so-called job losses would come from workers cutting back from 3 jobs to 2, or 2 jobs to one.

      Prior to the development of modern medicine, your neighbor's father would simply have died. The treatment for Parkinson's disease is expensive. Someone has to pay that cost; if your neighbor decides that it's worth her time to pay it, that's her prerogative. But what right does she or he have to conscript the rest of us to pay for his treatment?

      What right do you have to make us pay for your sidewalks, fire service or police protection? This is Civilization 101, sociopath.

      Your lack of control over some of your circumstances does not extend to you the right to take control over some of mine.

      Like you Randians aren't handing control of your standard of living to FIRE, with or without any cronyism from the government.

      The companies are paying the workers, and they are paying taxes

      Workers could only dream that they would be taxed like businesses. Your house, your food, your transportation, your monthly bills would be tax-deductible business expenses.

      Not in million dollar tax breaks in exchange for low-paid jobs.

      The alternative to those low-paid jobs is no work. Is that better?

      Have you considered not being a fascist? The jobs are there because the demand is there to support a business, and the tax rate on profits has nothing to do with that.

    369. Re:As an outsider. by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      You don't see any similarities between the Republican created idea (implemented in Massachusetts) where citizens are all required to have health insurance, and the ACA where citizens are required to have health insurance? Do we really have to go through the years of bipartisan meetings every time we look at the issue?

    370. Re:As an outsider. by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      There are similarities between Soviet Communism and Democratic Party progressiveness too, so can I declare progressives to be communists? Guess so.

      FACT: The first attempt at Healthcare reform was during the Clinton era. Hillary held closed, secret meetings where all Republicans were excluded. When the truth came out about the shady, dirty, crony deals they had made with the insurance companies, it fell apart.

      FACT: Obamacare was done in much the same way, except that Obama had a majority in both houses.

      FACT: Romney care started with open doors, and three years of bipartisan meetings, where all sides had a seat at the table, and contributed.

      FACT: No major piece of social legislation of this size has ever been passed the way ObamaCare was. Not ever. Not once.

      FACT: Romney Care was implemented slowly, is not a mandate to purchase insurance, and did not result in the cancellation of existing health plans. Romney care is NOT single payer.

      You can't rewrite history here. The Democrats could have done this differently, but they did not. It was Chicago Style crony capitalism all the way. The only thing I don't get is how they managed to screw just about every constituency the Democratic party has so carefully cultivated over the years except the LGBT crowd.

      For the record, I am unhappy with both parties, am registered as an independent. I lean fiscally conservative and socially progressive. Being from the Detroit area, I am very familiar with corrupt Democrats, probably more than most folks here, as we have seen it first hand, and in our neighbor to the west, Chicago. This type of Democrat talks with a silver tongue, but governs in such a way that the distinction between the Mafia and the party is negligible. Our last fine crop of Democratic leaders in Detroit are mostly in prison, leaving us a bankrupt city that is about as safe as any in the middle east.

      FACT: Our group insurance plan was cancelled because it is not ACA compliant. Premiums went up 20%, deductible doubled, co-pays are all higher. So don't give me the "current truth" where only 5% of people with crappy individual plans got cancelled. We are getting worse insurance, for more money, I feel betrayed, lied to, and mad as h*ll right now. It is no longer a "theoretical" proposition. I do not know a SINGLE PERSON who is getting better insurance, not one. I do not know a SINGLE PERSON who is paying less, or getting to keep their doctors. The two biggest lies ever told about a domestic program are tied to Obama and the Democratic party FOREVER. I used to admire Democrats, now I despise them, they have turned into greedy. manipulative liars, using Alinsky tactics to try and achieve one party rule. Well, we've lived under one party Democratic rule here for 40 years, come on down and visit and see what the result is. Bring a bullet proof vest.... you'll need it.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    371. Re:As an outsider. by volmtech · · Score: 1

      Previous c-section cost you $500, next one will cost you $9000. So who paid the $8500 difference last time?

    372. Re:As an outsider. by IndieVoter · · Score: 1

      "t's a bit disingenuous to say the whole law is broken because of the website. " The product IS the website! It is the way you get healthcare. In any private company, the CEO would be gone if the products screwed up this bad....excepting maybe Microsoft. But, Obama still has a job. That is the advantage of having given away so many free t-shirts.

    373. Re:As an outsider. by L.+J.+Beauregard · · Score: 1

      When and estimated 93 Million people will lose their insurance so the law can cover 30 Million who didn't have it, that is a failure of the law.

      Citation needed.

      These numbers are from White House documents.

      Then you should have no trouble producing a citation.

      --
      Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
      Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
    374. Re:As an outsider. by Tanktalus · · Score: 2

      No, not everybody is covered in Canada.

      You have to prove residency. Some people, especially the homeless, don't. (Though even the homeless can - they have to simply jump through hoops not dissimilar to those proposed by your Republicans for voter identification - which also is not a problem in Canada, I don't understand what your Democrats have against it.)

      I also have lifetime and yearly caps on my employer-provided insurance in some areas (orthodontics, off the top of my head, would be the first one).

      And health issues is the third leading cause of bankruptcy even in Canada. Sorry to burst that bubble. As to the question of dying due to breast cancer, or, really, any cancer, because they can't afford insurance? I don't have anything directly relevant, but given that people do file bankruptcy over health issues, I'd say the answer is probably yes. In fact, since cancer treatments likely involve expensive drugs, and drugs aren't covered by provincial plans, but by your private insurance, I'd say that it's almost impossible for people not to be dying in Canada due to being unable to afford insurance. And "thinking you're insured" only to have the insurance company deny the claim is not unique to the US, either. It happens even here in Canada, for the same reason: it's profitable to let people die.

      Seriously, Canada simply is not all sunshine and light, it's not a magical land of milk and honey. We don't have the magical answers. Our governments are struggling with huge healthcare costs that are spiralling out of control, and are looking to divest themselves from as much health care as possible while still claiming to have that mythical "universal health care" (which, as I stated earlier, we don't actually have).

      It's universal only in that even if you had enough money to pay for your procedure and the next person's procedure, you still can't get the line moving any faster. The rich and the poor have the same waiting period for procedures that are covered by the province. Only procedures that are not covered (orthodontics, vision, dentistry) generally move quickly.

    375. Re:As an outsider. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You don't say, substances that impair your judgement could probably have a negative impact on your ability to operate machinery? So you think that pint of Vodka for breakfast ain't a good idea?

      Again, in case I wasn't clear, I think nobody questions that it is a rather bad idea to operate any kind of machinery that has a potential negative impact on someone else's health when you're not fully alert. But like I said, not everyone turns into an irresponsible idiot because he is drunk or high. In your examples I tend to rather see a couple of jerks who cannot judge their own abilities than why certain substances need to be illegal. Or should I go ahead and find a few drunk drivers and how they killed people, and then question why beverages containing alcohol are legal?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    376. Re:As an outsider. by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      FACT: The first attempt at Healthcare reform was during the Clinton era

      Incorrect. There have been numerous attempts at health care reform - we got medicaid and medicare from some of them. Also, the insurance companies were mostly against the Clinton era plan.

      FACT: Obamacare was done in much the same way, except that Obama had a majority in both houses.

      Obamacare was started with a Republican plan and cooperating with insurance companies. Republicans could have been included if they wanted health care reform instead of to destroy Obama. They obviously didn't since they wasted 8 years.

      FACT: Romney care started with open doors, and three years of bipartisan meetings, where all sides had a seat at the table, and contributed.

      Yep, so good thing Obamacare is based on the that.

      FACT: No major piece of social legislation of this size has ever been passed the way ObamaCare was. Not ever. Not once.

      Probably true, but likewise, no party has been so resistant to working with the majority party. Ever.

      FACT: Romney Care was implemented slowly, is not a mandate to purchase insurance, and did not result in the cancellation of existing health plans. Romney care is NOT single payer.

      ObamaCare has been implemented over a few years too - it's also definitely not single payer (that'd be a huge improvement). You may not be familiar with the plans though. RomneyCare certainly does mandate people to purchase insurance (we have to pay a tax penalty if we don't have it). Some plans were canceled under RomneyCare because they were made illegal in the state.
      A similar thing is happening with ObamaCare. The law stated people wouldn't have to lose their insurance that they had before the law was passed. The insurance companies noticed a loophole that they could change people's insurance plans between when the law was passed and when it went into effect to avoid that part of the law. Then they could send out all these cancellation notices because the intermediate plans didn't meet the standards.

      Sounds like you had crappy insurance before if it wasn't ACA compliant. Did you have low lifetime caps or something like that? I don't know a single person here in MA that had their plan canceled and people around here are very happy with their health care (in general).

      It's easy to find people getting better insurance. Just look for sob stories of people who lost their crappy "supplemental insurance" or scam insurance - then look for a follow up on the same people where they actually find out what they can get. You may be living somewhere that had very lax laws to begin with, but once you move to better insurance plans, people will be happy.

      If the Republicans were working on actual health care solutions instead of the pointless and constant "repeal Obamacare", they might get some support (well aside from the crazy "legitimate rape" types). Really they should be working on "Amending ObamaCare", and not just in a way that removes funding. All major legislation goes through amendments to fix issues with it, but thanks to the obstructionism, that hasn't been possible.

    377. Re:As an outsider. by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      beverages containing alcohol are legal

      They weren't legal at one time. The problem is a black market popped up making some people more powerful then the government itself. Of course this is largely the same situation with illegal drugs but society didn't care enough about them to amend the US constitution to allow them.

      Enough people do turn into irresponsible idiots when they are drunk and high that laws prohibiting those behaviors have been made. We are suffering because of those idiots and I don't think it is a good idea to take the laws away and allow it to happen all over with again even if that is under the guise of harming or killing yourself because it often kills or harms others in the process. IF we look at the states that have legalized pot usage, we find the controlled dope is actually more expensive then the black market dope so all the problems with addicts stealing and everything else is will still be there. Except it will be compounded because more people will have access which means there will be more addicts.

    378. Re:As an outsider. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Hmm... can't say that pot is more expensive in the Netherlands than it is in other parts of Europe. Whether it's better you probably have to ask someone who has tried it.

      And I somehow don't think that there will be more addicts just because the availability is higher. I mean, be honest, would you start shooting Heroin up your veins just because it's there? What kind of thinking is that? It's not like it's not common knowledge by now that it's probably not the healthiest thing you could do to your body to inject some kind of substance into it, especially without medical training. Common sense tells you that. If you're SO determined to pump your body full of Heroin that you are willingly not only putting a needle into your own body but also inject something that may or may not kill you, I guess it doesn't really matter that much anymore whether the substance in question is legal or not, and whether you get it in your local pharmacy or some street dealer.

      I honestly wish to know where that "if it's available more people will use it" thinking comes from. Imagine it's available. Would that mean you start using it? And if not, why do you think others would?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    379. Re:As an outsider. by romons · · Score: 1
      Your link clearly says that the reason for bankruptcy in Canada is being off work due to medical issues, not medical expenses. They even jab the United States, pointing out that it isn't like the US.

      The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America.

      --
      Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
    380. Re:As an outsider. by strikethree · · Score: 1

      It's just silly to count the cost of insurance without counting the benefits of the coverage.

      Except, when, of course, it is close to 25% of your entire income... but yeah. No point in looking at the overall cost as long as we are all covered. D'oh!

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    381. Re:As an outsider. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummm... The website is the only thing that lies between users of this service and the service itself. No bid contract. Several hundreds of millions of dollars. Over three years. Still doesn't work. How you can't see that this reflects poorly on the law itself is beyond me.

      It's not 'just a website'. Without the website, there is no ACA. Without the website being usable, there's no way that the ACA can be funded and other funding avenues (increased taxes, forcing veterans to switch to ACA, or other awful ideas) will need to be enacted. Without the website, ACA fails.

  2. Entering the private sector?? by FearTheDonut · · Score: 5, Funny

    I hear Microsoft is looking for a CEO..

    1. Re:Entering the private sector?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And suddenly Elop sounds competent.

    2. Re:Entering the private sector?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That might actually be a good idea, considering the guy fired refused to sign off that the site was tested and secure. His boss signed off on it instead, knowing the legal requirements for the site to go live had not been met. So apparently he's being scapegoated because he refused to be scapegoated.

  3. Private sector job by ynoref+ · · Score: 0

    By chance is he going to Oracle?

    Seems fitting...

  4. project management. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    project management. (Score:?)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 07, 2013 @10:21AM
    I would think plenty of people know the answer to this question.
    What are your chances of succeeding in delivering a software project with.
    1) ambiguous and changing requirements that are not yet settled.
    2) massive need to co-operate with hundreds perhaps hundreds of thousands of entities.
    3) all kinds of requirements for security and audit from various federal regulators
    4) A hard fast deadline that has no way of being slipped?
    Any guesses ? Anybody ?

    The only 'possibly' unexcusable thing is that nobody seems to have been told that it wasn't going to happen.

    But you tell me, if you are a cook who cooks great 3 min omlets and some smuck comes in
    and gives you $1000 for a 1 minute omlete , what do you do ?

    1. Re:project management. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >

      But you tell me, if you are a cook who cooks great 3 min omlets and some smuck comes in
      and gives you $1000 for a 1 minute omlete , what do you do ?

      I tell you what I wouldn't do - give him a salmonella-inducing, raw fucking egg and call it an omelette. Because I'm not a moral-less piece of shit who values profits over the health and safety of my customers.

      If the job can't be done under the criteria set forth, it can't be fucking done under the criteria set forth. You tell the fuckers that, and when they say, "well, we'll pay you extra to make the impossible happen," you politely decline, tip your hat, and be about your fucking business. Because guess what? When shit hits the fan and people start to suffer actual harm, who do you think is going to end up on that cross - the assholes that paid for it, or the idiot who tried to make a quick buck by willfully poisoning his customer base?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:project management. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It is possible to cook a safe 1 minute omelette.

      ""well, we'll pay you extra to make the impossible happen," you politely decline

      I'm glad the people at NASA didn't take that attitude about going to the Moon.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:project management. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      >I'm glad the people at NASA didn't take that attitude about going to the Moon.

      NASA was already planning to go to the Moon. If I remember correctly, they'd suggested it to Kennedy as the next goal, and he just put a timescale on it.

    4. Re:project management. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      It is possible to cook a safe 1 minute omelette.

      ""well, we'll pay you extra to make the impossible happen," you politely decline

      I'm glad the people at NASA didn't take that attitude about going to the Moon.

      The point - you missed it.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  5. Accountable? by jamesl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sebelius added that she was ultimately accountable for what she termed the 'excruciatingly awful' rollout.

    Accountable how? Will she get a black mark on her annual review? She still has her job.

    1. Re:Accountable? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 2

      I want her, and everyone else in this debacle, to work for free until the site is fixed, with no back pay later on.

      *That* is accountability.

    2. Re:Accountable? by Guppy06 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      She still has her job.

      Senate Republicans refuse to allow any Obama appointments to move forward as it is, none of them are as high-profile a target as HHS Secretary right now.

      It's either Sebelius or leaving the job vacant until 2017.

    3. Re:Accountable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You miss the point. Obama placed unrealistic deadlines on a large and complex project. It was then subject to feature creep and spec changes on the whim of politicians and lobbyists. The project wasn't going to be delivered on time anyway, bean counters and MBAs have no idea how long a large project well take, you can't just throw more staff at it. Factor in the moving target, and you have a recipe for a disaster. This failure should be used as a showcase for what happens to project when you drift off spec and work to meaningless deliver dates. Sack the government, not the staff that did as they were told.

    4. Re:Accountable? by Lendrick · · Score: 1

      I agree. While we're at it, let's dock pay from the house republicans for shutting down the government.

    5. Re:Accountable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I screwed up really badly eight years ago at work. It was dealing with an important database and files. It was easy to screw up. I stayed and fixed my screw up--I didn't run away like Tony Trenkle, CIO. It was a pain to fix but I stayed and repaired everything. The DBAs and management approved the fix and verified the fix; everyone was satisfied with the fix. (I took steps to prevent the screw up and haven't done it again in eight years.) Management did not fire me; they keep me on. I guess they liked it when the screw up was fixed and that I faced the "music" and repaired the damage.

      Tony Trenkle, CIO, should be severely punished (whatever that means in the situation) because he would not fix his own problem. Hopefully, future interviewers will think, "This guy is a big screw up. We don't want him."

    6. Re:Accountable? by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      I'm sure she's taking a lot more shit in the press than your average Secretary does, especially when you consider the ACA battle. Not saying feel sorry for her, just that she probably thought it would be a cushy job, and she instead deals with a lot of outrage, both manufactured and real. Maybe she means accountable for her expectations, not accountable as in what you or I would consider accountable.

    7. Re:Accountable? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No, that's douche baggery form someone who has no clue how large systems work or need to be managed.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:Accountable? by jamesl · · Score: 1

      You miss the point. Obama placed unrealistic deadlines on a large and complex project. It was then subject to feature creep and spec changes on the whim of politicians and lobbyists.

      So by saying that she's accountable for the failure, Sebelius was lying? Are you saying that Obama is accountable?

    9. Re:Accountable? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      It would also be unconstitutional. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out why. Here's a hint: check amendments.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    10. Re:Accountable? by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 2

      They say he's leaving to join the private sector, rather than to spend time with his family, so it sounds like someone has already hired this failure.

    11. Re:Accountable? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      So the answer is to just let the same failed leader on a large system continue on without any accountability at all?

      In the real world, when a large system fails, someone gets fired. If Sebelius doesn't want to get fired, but still wants to be held accountable, she should waive her paycheck until it is fixed.

    12. Re:Accountable? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 2

      I agree. Let's dock the pay of every single unessential government employee until we've paid down the debt, or at least eliminated the yearly deficit.

    13. Re:Accountable? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to find a constitutional method of accountability then :)

      Hint: continuing to be employed with no sanctions whatsoever is not accountability

    14. Re:Accountable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet Romney could get confirmed. History indicates he could probably get the job done too. Might not be the President's first choice, but sometimes there are consequences for screwing up.

    15. Re:Accountable? by Straif · · Score: 2

      The shutdown happened the same day as the launch so had no impact on the website at all. Also the shutdown came down to a single bill, that was held up by senate DEMOCRATS that would have fully funded the government, including further aspects of the ACA, if only the individual mandate was pushed back for 1 year (there were previous proposals by the House prior to the shutdown but that was the final one that was offered that the Dems refused to even allow for a vote).

      If you haven't been paying attention, that's the same proposal now coming from several Democrats.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    16. Re:Accountable? by Straif · · Score: 2

      Obama has a higher percentage of appointments pass confirmation then Bush did. He has however, attempted to make fewer appointments than either Bush or Clinton which leave a lot of voluntary vacancies.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    17. Re:Accountable? by chill · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but you're confusing the "real world" with an episode of Celebrity Apprentice.

      In the real world you don't just fire managers for screwed up projects. You demand they fix it, micromanage their project plan and demand constant updates until it is done. THEN you fire them -- maybe. If the project was doomed by design, then it isn't their fault and they don't need to be fired.

      Just because Sebelius hasn't been fired by now doesn't mean she won't either be fired or asked to resign in the near future. Saying that just because she hasn't been fired immediately is pure ignorant douche-baggery, as the grandparent pointed out.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    18. Re:Accountable? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      No, but being forced to work with no pay is incorrect as well.

      Being fired for failing an assignment? Fine. Contracted work with milestones and what not, with per-completion payment? No problem.

      Government telling people that they will work, for free? Bad juju.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    19. Re:Accountable? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      I guess I would see it the other way around - if Sebelius wants to claim that she'll take accountability, she should *offer* to work for free until it is over, in return for not being fired outright.

      So, order of operations:

      1) You failed, you're fired.

      2) Please don't fire me, let me take accountability by working for free until I finish the job, so as to save my reputation by fixing my mistake.

      3a) Okay, we'll let you continue work in order for you to save your reputation, and accept your refusal of pay as accountability.

      3b) No, you're fired.

    20. Re:Accountable? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Um, no. In the real world, when you have a manager who screws up a project of this magnitude, much less one that keeps lying about the state of affairs until the very last minute, you fire them. You can't trust them after a failure of that type and magnitude, and you hope you can micromanage their second in command who takes over from them enough to fix what was screwed. Worst case scenario, you pull the plug on the whole thing, and close down the whole damn team.

      Sebelius should have been fired on 10/2, and her second in command should've been micromanaged from that point on. By 10/7, a realistic assessment of timeline should've been made (note, end of November 2013 is not realistic), and work should've started on delaying the law until a realistic timeline could be met.

      But of course, in government, the incentives are perverse, so the proper thing often doesn't happen.

    21. Re:Accountable? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Obama has a higher percentage of appointments pass confirmation then Bush did.

      [Citation needed]

      In any case, I notice you said confirmations and not filibusters. But then we might talk about how democrats filibustering Bush's appointees was the exception, and Republicans filibustering Obama's appointees is the rule.

    22. Re:Accountable? by Straif · · Score: 1

      The average wait from an Obama nomination to appointment is about 240 days, it was 277 under Bush (that was from Politifact). His appointment do spend more time on the floor for debate but much less time in committee. The big issue is he is 44% slower in even bothering to nominate anyone (compared to Clinton and Bush) which, when added to retirements and other planned/unplanned vacancies had led to a large increase in open appointment slots. That in turn is used to make the Senate approval process look completely out of whack with his recent predecessors, when in fact it's not all that unusual with the baseline set during Bush 2s time in office.

      The best analysis is on judicial appointees, and as of his first term Obama had a 80.5% (173 out of 215) confirmation rate while Bush had a 77.4% rate (192 out of 248). Those numbers are from the Congressional Research Service.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    23. Re:Accountable? by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      Barack Obama nominates a Republican Member of Congress, an enlisted combat veteran to be Secretary of Defense, and it takes over 7 weeks for Republicans to finally allow it. And that department has nothing to do with the program that the GOP literally shut down the government to try to undo.

      If Sebelius' seat goes empty, it will stay empty.

    24. Re:Accountable? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Or, to restate: "Work for free, or you're fired. Either way, you're not getting paid."

      It's a real bad road to start to go down.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    25. Re:Accountable? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Actually, if one is truly apologetic, and wants to be held accountable, that's a pretty good deal. The "you're fired" option means your reputation is tarnished and stays that way, whereas the "work for free until you fix what you fucked up" means your reputation is at least partially rehabilitated. I suppose it depends on how much of a price you put on your reputation.

      The problem here is that Sebelius keeps talking about being accountable, but actually endures no accountability. It's like a drunk driver saying they're accountable for the deaths and damage they caused, but not putting them in prison, or forcing them to pay restitution, or even charging them with a crime at all.

    26. Re:Accountable? by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Last time I looked at the budget (and it is confusing), you could eliminate all discretionary spending including all non military salaries and welfare programs (that are not medicare, medicaid, or SS which have their own earmarked tax), and still not eliminate the yearly deficit.

    27. Re:Accountable? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Then obviously, we need to eliminate so-called "non-discretionary" spending as well.

      If we're going to believe that debt doesn't matter, the logical result is paying for government with 100% borrowing, and setting the tax rate to zero. Idenfitying the inherent flaw in this is left as an exercise for the reader, who is then encouraged to apply that to other lesser versions of ignoring debt.

  6. Private unemployment? by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "will reportedly join the private sector"

    Is that what unemployed people are called nowadays? No wonder reported unemployment is so low, contrary to all observable evidence. Certainly he won't be going into a "job" straight away - who in their right mind will hire him?

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Private unemployment? by slew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As with all politically connected people, I'm sure a soft landing "place" was made for him in one of the companies owned/operated by one of the generous political donors to the current overlord administration's party, so he would be comfortable vacating his current cushy post before he became a total embarassment.

      This is probably not too dissimilar to how some dictators seem to find themselves living with an annual stipend in some remote area of the world...

    2. Re:Private unemployment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you understand how the world works...

    3. Re:Private unemployment? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Oh I do, but sarcasm and tone of voice are notoriously hard to transmit over the internet.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:Private unemployment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd hire him. As the office fool.

    5. Re:Private unemployment? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      "will reportedly join the private sector"

      Certainly he won't be going into a "job" straight away - who in their right mind will hire him?

      Medical industry lobbying organizations.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    6. Re:Private unemployment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      who in their right mind will hire him?

      Bain Capital

    7. Re:Private unemployment? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "No wonder reported unemployment is so low, contrary to all observable evidence"
      What observed evidence? I see help wanted signed all over the place.
      You want to talk about hard to find jobs? lets talk 1982-1984.

      Anyways, this is common move for COO/CIOs to do. Leave a large project to land a better gig elsewhere. It doesn't make sense, but its a common occurance.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:Private unemployment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What observed evidence? I see help wanted signed all over the place.

      McDonnalds and WalMart don't count.

  7. SOMEONE HIRED HIM?????? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After a big disaster some company is actually going to hire him?

    For most of us "little people" it would be the end of our career.

    "So, why did you leave your previous employer?"
    "Well, I oversaw a giant public project that went terribly wrong, so I resigned out of shame."
    "Hmm, ok. Pending a criminal background check, could you start Monday?"

    1. Re:SOMEONE HIRED HIM?????? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      He likely signed off on deliverables from a bunch of crooks/contractors...I think he'll be fine.

      I've seen people in similar positions get hired at 4x their previous salary. By the company they had just finished purchasing a large pile of very expensive shit from.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:SOMEONE HIRED HIM?????? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      The project was a near-impossible one. Rushed deadlines, a constantly changing specification. Plus he has a lot of government connections - he's worth hiring, though he may end up taking a pay cut.

    3. Re:SOMEONE HIRED HIM?????? by tubs · · Score: 1

      Its the public sector learning from the private sector.

      --

      try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die

  8. Clusterfuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Everyone involved needs to be fired.

    Watched that Kathleen Sebelius yesterday. She basically read the marketing spiel for 20 minutes. Anytime she was asked a question she had no real answers.
    She has no clue at all what shes doing. How long it's really going to take. Or how broken it really is. She has failed completely at her JOB.
    And this wasn't some last minute thing. They have had YEARS and a huge pile of money to get done a simple task.

    Fire her.

    And then start an investigation to find out where all of the money actually went.

    1. Re:Clusterfuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Her "job" is to read the marketing spiel and answer questions without really answering them.

      As such she is performing her job perfectly. She's a shoe-in for a cozy ambassador position as a reward for her hard work.

    2. Re:Clusterfuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I hear there's an ambassador position open in Libya...

    3. Re:Clusterfuck by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      If by "YEARS" you mean more than one, but less than two, then sure.

      Contract award was December of 2011.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    4. Re:Clusterfuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have had YEARS and a huge pile of money to get done a simple task.

      Let me get this straight... successfully completing a nation-wide roll-out out of a website, which must be capable of handling (at a minimum of) tens of thousands of concurrent users and must conform to a very complicated law in less than 2 years is a simple task? Sure. It's just like setting up a wordpress blog.

      And while $93M (the actual contract amount) is a lot of money, it isn't $600M that is being reported.

  9. Re:Internet archive damaged by Dunbal · · Score: 0

    Perhaps fire insurance would have covered this. It's what insurance is for. Why should I give $600k to someone dumb enough not to insure his asset/content/art/whatever. He's only going to have another fire later...

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  10. It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obama never envisioned Obamacare actually working. It was just a means to an end - single payer. It was designed to be an utter failure from the get-go.

    1. Re:It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I wish. In the US, our medical costs are far greater than anywhere else where the level of care is mid grade. Eliminating the middlemen should reduce the cost somewhat. Unfortunately I think its more likely a power play by the insurance industry to force everyone to buy insurance.

    2. Re:It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      You think the grand plan to get public buy in on government run single payer was to completely botch the roll out of government directed public healthcare? I'm not sure I follow the logic there.

    3. Re:It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by Lendrick · · Score: 3, Funny

      I have to say, this is one dumbass conspiracy theory I wish had a grain of truth to it.

    4. Re:It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Funny

      You think the grand plan to get public buy in on government run single payer was to completely botch the roll out of government directed public healthcare? I'm not sure I follow the logic there.

      Then you don't know how the left work.

      First they create a problem, then they offer a 'solution', which was the policy they wanted in the first place. When have they ever offered a solution which consisted of rolling back the policy that caused the problem?

      I'm not sure whether this was just a case of incompetence or intentionally botched, but it doesn't really matter. When people start screaming about how they can't get insurance because they can't get on the web site, and, in any case, the other people who have been able to get on the web site discovered their insurance would cost many times what they were previously paying, the 'solution' won't be to scrap the whole law, it will be to eliminate insurance any have the government run everything.

    5. Re:It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

      Then you have not watched the video of Obama saying we will move to a single payer system, though it will take awhile.

    6. Re:It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the ACA is a product of the "left", it's so left-wing it could almost be entirely mistaken for Romneycare.

    7. Re:It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Then you aren't aware of the memo showing that Obama had traded away the public option to the for-profit hospital lobby, when he was still running around saying "any plan I sign must have a public option" months later.

      Obama doesn't have a secret plan to get single payer. He had a secret plan to sell the public on one thing, only to stick them with the mandates and excise taxes he ran against.

    8. Re:It was SUPPOSED to be a failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish.

  11. Recapping an old post. . . by Salgak1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My previous analysis

    Simply:

    One: Schedule Fail. Compounded by late award of the contracts to develop/influence:

    Contracts Awarded Dec 2011

    Two: massive requirements base to develop specification for development and implementation: The PPACA was 1800+ pages, and the associated regulations are 10,000+ pages, and are STILL changing. Can't develop without a spec and design, with big parts of requirements still changing.

    Three: inadequate testing. The above-referenced link states that security testing BEGAN in August 2013, less than two months before rollout. There's no mention of load testing.
    UPDATE: There WAS load testing, Radio reports say it was tested with a 1000-user simultaneous load. EXPECTED was 60K simultaneous users. . .
    However, the only CONCRETE numbers I've found say it crashed at several hundred simultaneous users. . . .

    Four: Integration issues. The Obamacare Exchange system combines data from numerous agencies and systems, and integrating between them is always a difficult task.

    Five: Identity-management. This is in parallel to Integration, somehow all identities need to be federated into a single overarching system.

    Twenty-three (now 25) months, even with a top-flight team, would simply not be enough to do this: this is a 5-7 year job. . .

    1. Re:Recapping an old post. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The architecture was wrong to start with because they treated citizens as consumers.

      If you look at the original RFI around 2008 before the subsequent software architecture they published, they indicated they wanted to expand their X.500 IDM (which worked). Then Oracle was brought in and decided to use the Sun Liberty Federated Identity Management presenting the user with a web site of combined information.

      Adding to their woes, they then politically wanted to hide the costs of the policies and not delay until the system was fully tested, thus forcing everyone who wanted to shop for a policy into the self inflicted IDM bottleneck that had to orchestrate via Web Services.

      What they should have done instead is condensed the all the rules for pricing to a spreadsheet that people could have downloaded to determine their own price and benefits. That also could have been done via a spreadsheet in the cloud.

      At that point they could have given the ones who decided they were going to sign up X.509v3 certificates to verify their identity, and still used Experian to validate their identity, and have the people fill out the forms off line from their own computers, using numbers from last years tax returns, and then submit it, digitally signed as attachments using S/MIME or just uploaded via a web site where they would authenticate to Apache via the X.509v3 user certificates.

      When it comes to business, they are going to do this offline, and I predict exactly this way.

      They treat consumers as second class citizens.

      The problem was that it was Federated Identity, instead of recognizing the people as citizens first, using the X.509v3 root
      for identity in the U.S.

    2. Re:Recapping an old post. . . by DeBaas · · Score: 2

      Even if there was load testing, in my experience load and stress testing is within the test community not something that is very well developed. Two days ago I spoke about performance testing on a 4 day conference ( http://www.eurostarconferences.com/ ) and my talk was the only one that dealt with performance.

      In my view, this fields needs to be better developed. Tests usually focus just on response times, based on usage profiles that are practically fantasy. Monitoring of the systems is minimal, and the queuing model is usually not even known to the testers.

      --
      ---
    3. Re:Recapping an old post. . . by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      Silly question, but how can one put out an RFI for a system which did not exist in law until March 23, 2010 ??

      Unless, of course, they've ALSO got the Wayback Machine at Stargate Command, excuse me, Cheyenne Mountain. . . .

  12. Misread by tompaulco · · Score: 3, Funny

    I misread it as "healthcare.gov officialLY resigns". I was about to throw a party.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    1. Re:Misread by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad I'm not the only one that read it that way. I was confused on how a website could resign...

  13. Shut it down get it right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't the sane thing to do is to shut down the website, grant an extention on the mandate, and then work properley to get the damn thing right? Politics aside whether you agree or disagree with Obamacare as a whole just shut down the damn website and put it back up when its tested and working. Might take a month might take longer but don't rollout a disaster.

    1. Re:Shut it down get it right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What?!? Shutdown the web site? Delay the mandate? That's un-fucking-acceptable! We have to shut down the entire national government right fucking now to prevent that catastrophe!

  14. " aggressive schedule " mean impossible schedule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love the how the bureaucrats make these schedules without being the ones staying up all night/all weekend to do the work....

  15. Re:Internet archive damaged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A) No one is suggesting you give $600k. The intent would be to have many people donate a little each.
    B) Insurance typically would cover the structure and contents, but not things like lost time or labor. Furthermore, it is likely that they did not own the facility that burned but were simply tenants.
    C) Why are you so sure they're going to have another fire later? Do you know something about the first one that you'd care to share with us?

  16. Sacrificial Lamb found.... Website still broken by bobbied · · Score: 1

    So they finally found their sacrificial lamb? Who-rah...

    I got to say, that took a LONG time. Just not as long as the fix is going to take.

    Typical political decisions making a bloody mess out of what should have been a simple thing to build. This is why government needs to NOT be doing this kind of thing. Anybody remember the $200 hammer, or the $500 toilet seat from decades past? Well, now instead of just being a feature of the DOD, it's going to be a part of every citizen's life (and many of their deaths) though health care. It's going to be insanely expensive and not work well, if at all. Just like this website project.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:Sacrificial Lamb found.... Website still broken by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Typical political decisions making a bloody mess out of what should have been a simple thing to build.

      Simple? No, my web site is simple. Theirs has to pull data from many different servers in different agencies, and feed data to state-run exchanges in addition to feeding that data to citizens signing up in blood-red tea party states (states that sued to prevent it and want it dead at all costs). It's certainly not an impossible task, but it is certainly complex. That said, the folks working on it could have been better chosen.

      The feds usually don't do a bad job with web sites; the .govs are better than most private enterprise ones. I have to log into the USDA and census bureau sites for work, and the copyright office's site to register Nobots and they're not the most useable sites, but they all beat the hell out of Bowker (the ISBN registry) and Lulu (I got a note from a fan who complained about Lulu's site, I need a new printer).

      Hell, even slashdot, a nerd site built by IT nerds screws stuff up all the time; I wanted to add my new web site to my profile, but no fields show up in my profile so I can't. And they've been at it for fifteen years.

      Anybody remember the $200 hammer, or the $500 toilet seat from decades past?

      Better than you, apparently. Those were bogus charges so the real money could go to secret shit.

    2. Re:Sacrificial Lamb found.... Website still broken by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Better than you, apparently. Those were bogus charges so the real money could go to secret shit.

      Nope. Those where *valid* charges for actual items ordered by the government. The hammers where delivered to specifications that included specifics about the metal used, the shape and weight to exacting tolerances and documentation and testing procedures to verify everything was as specified. Same with the toilet seats, which where for specific aircraft use.

      The Secret stuff you are talking about was and continues to be funded in a shadow budget that only shows up as a line item on the real budget. These "black" projects are not funded by over priced purchases for other things. Government purchasing regulations would not permit such foolishness and the demands of security make it a stupid idea.

      I used to work for the department of defense (U.S. Navy) as an electronics engineer. I've seen how the procurement process works and why the government pays sooo much money for what you get from it. Sometimes it is because the government over specifies what it needs and makes things so complex that it adds to the price, some times it is the contractors pushing the price up (or selling substandard parts) to make a few extra dollars. Most of the time it's really about the lack of a motive to be efficient and looking for ways to do a better job for less cost coupled with the limitations of the contracting process. It's just easier and less dangerous to one's career to just do what worked in the past because nobody rewards you for saving a few bucks but they will hang you out to dry if you mess up.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  17. shocking by niado · · Score: 1

    A politically-unimportant official falls on his sword over the failure, and the heavy-hitters claim some kind of ephemeral notion of "accountability" with no actual repercussions for anyone's careers.

    Who is surprised?

    1. Re:shocking by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      A politically-unimportant official falls on his sword over the failure, and the heavy-hitters claim some kind of ephemeral notion of "accountability" with no actual repercussions for anyone's careers.

      Ah, a die-hard Republican, I see. "Politically important" has nothing to do with it. Who but the project's CIO is more responsible for IT's successes and failures? When k-mart's web site screws up and sells $500 items for $20 like they did yesterday, who takes the fall, the CEO or the CIO? Usually it isn't even the CIO but someone further down the food chain.

    2. Re:shocking by niado · · Score: 1

      A politically-unimportant official falls on his sword over the failure, and the heavy-hitters claim some kind of ephemeral notion of "accountability" with no actual repercussions for anyone's careers.

      Ah, a die-hard Republican, I see. "Politically important" has nothing to do with it. Who but the project's CIO is more responsible for IT's successes and failures? When k-mart's web site screws up and sells $500 items for $20 like they did yesterday, who takes the fall, the CEO or the CIO? Usually it isn't even the CIO but someone further down the food chain.

      I'm not a "die-hard Republican" - not sure how you got that idea from my post.

      You are correct in saying that accountability at the top of organizations is almost always minimal. That was my point. This is how it was always going to turn out. "Politically important" has everything to do with it.

  18. Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First, he has CIO on his resume.

    Secondly, his Government contacts alone are worth a six figure income.

    I see CSC, IBM or some other big outsourcing/Government contracting firm picking him up real fast.

    List kids, employment at this guy's level is nothing like ours where a little fuck up makes unemployable.

  19. At least one no bid contract awarded by WillAdams · · Score: 1

    There was however at least one no bid contract awarded --- it went to a local company: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/avoid-severe-consequences-delays-hhs-awards-no-bid-contracts-marketplaces_754032.html

    It's being contested though: http://www.gao.gov/products/D04539

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  20. Typical big outsourced project... by ErichTheRed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've been on enough big-bang massive IT projects to know that this is no different from anything we've seen before.
    - Ambiguous requirements that aren't settled, and constantly changing (stuff that even "agile" can't account for): This is always a killer. Even an "agile" project can't have the framework ripped down and rebuilt at the last second...some decisions have to be permanent.
    - Contractors who just want to collect money : Outsourcing is always more expensive and produces worse results than if you do it in house. The only thing you save is the cost of employees, but you pay more in the long run.
    - Entrenched groups who don't want to see it succeed: ERP implementations often fail because the business processes that need to be changed are held up by people or groups that don't want their job changed or automated away, and have powerful friends.
    - Massive time pressure: I don't know why software development and IT are so different from engineering projects, but there is still the persistent myth that you can throw bodies at a late project to make it come in on time. You can't do this with a construction project of any reasonable size...there are still dependencies. Yet, there's always pressure to make arbitrary dates.

    Seriously, replace "government healthcare insurance marketplace connecting people with thousands of insurers" with "SAP implementation", and you see the same problems.

    I can see why they made this guy resign though -- someone has to be the scapegoat. At one of the companies I worked at, the much-loved founder of the company was thrown out by the board (it had grown into a public company) after a massive operations disaster that forced him to go out and publicly apologize. Some of it might have been willful blindness, but executives tend to say "I'm paying millions of dollars, just make this happen and don't bother me with details." Consulting companies love these kind of executives....

    1. Re:Typical big outsourced project... by tubs · · Score: 2

      "Entrenched groups who don't want to see it succeed: ERP implementations often fail because the business processes that need to be changed are held up by people or groups that don't want their job changed or automated away, and have powerful friends."

      I've been reading a report on the London Ambulance Services fiasco in 1994, and the final report mentioned something similar - you can't expect a computer system to change working practices, the practices have to change first.

      --

      try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die

    2. Re:Typical big outsourced project... by geekoid · · Score: 2

      "Ambiguous requirements that aren't settled, and constantly changing "
      But that can be mitigated with a good underlying architecture. The parts they are changing are mostly business rule changes. Properly architecture business layer can handle that.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Typical big outsourced project... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on if the "ambiguous business layer" is in fact the schema (paradigm). And you can't just change the schema mid-flight into a project. It's the very foundation for all other layers to rest up against.

    4. Re:Typical big outsourced project... by loccohombre · · Score: 1

      As someone currently paddling through a large IT project at the moment, I wish I had mod points today. Every single one of your points are totally correct.

      --
      "It's expensive, stupid, last only seconds - but makes your mouth hurt for days - it's BEE IN A BALLOON" - Kibo 3/1/95
  21. one call by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    one call to Jeff Bezos. Couldn't we have just had Amazon develop and host all this?

  22. And this is only sign-up by CodeInspired · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If it's this big of a mess just to sign-up for a healthcare plan, imagine how bad it would be if the government was tasked to run all of healthcare as some politicians would like.

    1. Re:And this is only sign-up by MarkWegman · · Score: 2

      Yup. Imagine something as terrible as social security. It seems to many people, who've been trying to repeal it for many years that it can't possibly work at all. Or even worse the concept that other governments who have better mortality figures than the US have medical personnel on their salaries and somehow the cost to their GDP is much less than the US. This law is in fact complicated because we decided that rather than having the government directly run things, we'd have the government pay insurance companies to run things, and extract a profit from running things, and yet have the similar impact on citizens as if the government was running things. The healthcare market has not for a long time been an example of free market where people choose their doctors, especially as they are dieing and when they have insurance in order to make an informed decision about how to save money. Adam Smith's invisible hand has not worked in the context of our system to keep prices down for a long time. The law is a kludge, to fix some of the problems. But it is probably better than what it replaced.

    2. Re:And this is only sign-up by swb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Arguably, single payer would be simpler. Part of the complexity of this system is that it has to interface with a ton of insurers and their plans and be able to make comparison shopping possible.

      If there was a single payer solution there wouldn't be any of that complexity. You would simply sign up and be covered. No choices, no options, a single plan.

    3. Re:And this is only sign-up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I have actually lived in countries that have simple payer systems (i.e. the government is the sole insurance provider) and it works great. That was a long time ago and you still had to submit paper forms but those systems have since gone paperless. I used to know doctors who didn’t even have a secretary. The system was completely streamlined and hassle-free.

      Contrast that with the American insurance system which I know quite well because my wife used to work in doctors’ offices. The average American doctor needs a full time employee just to get paid. Dealing with the insurance companies is a nightmare.

      But apparently, this unholy mess of a healthcare system is “the best in the world”, because jeebus or something.

    4. Re:And this is only sign-up by CodeInspired · · Score: 1

      Sure, the sign-up process would be simpler. I'm talking about everything else that happens after that. Imagine the system that needs to be created to administer every aspect of health care for all 350 million Americans. Tracking patient visits, expenses, coverages, drugs, etc. etc. along with all the financial distributions to thousands of hospitals, doctors, clinics, pharmacies, etc.

      I imagine you could model something from one of the existing insurance providers systems, but would any of those really scale to 350 million users? Are you going to require all existing medical software providers to integrate into a master government health care system? All of that sounds like it's exponentially more complicated than this sign-up process. If they are having this much difficulty with a process that basically amounts to 1. Read your tax record to determine subsidy eligibility 2. Display a list of available health plans and the cost. 3. Let you pick one and send the data off to the corresponding insurance company, then I have no faith in them developing a system that would manage everyone's health care.

    5. Re:And this is only sign-up by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the real difference is that those other countries didn't have the U.S. Congress involved.

    6. Re:And this is only sign-up by swb · · Score: 1

      The truly hard part with single payer would seem to be standardizing on the pricing for services, and this is an upfront process, not a computer system build.

      What makes the current system so complex is that there are hundreds (thousands, maybe?) of insurance companies, most with many plans with overlapping but not identical features, and each plan has a "price" they will pay for services.

      I think there would be so much streamlining when it came to single payer that it would greatly simplify the entire process. A single payer system is going to standardize pricing on everything related to health care. There'd be one price, one payer and many providers.

    7. Re:And this is only sign-up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine the system that needs to be created to administer every aspect of health care for all 350 million Americans. Tracking patient visits, expenses, coverages, drugs, etc. etc. along with all the financial distributions to thousands of hospitals, doctors, clinics, pharmacies, etc.

      You mean like Medicare and Medicaid and their exceptionally small overhead?

    8. Re:And this is only sign-up by CQDX · · Score: 1

      And how big were those countries? The smaller the population the easier it would be to implement. Getting single payer here would be like trying to get all of Europe on a single EU based system. I don't think you could do it unless you are willing to down grade the better run systems like Germany's.

    9. Re:And this is only sign-up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Arguably, single payer would be simpler. Part of the complexity of this system is that it has to interface with a ton of insurers and their plans and be able to make comparison shopping possible.

      What? One of the supposed benefits of the public exchanges established through Obamacare was simplified insurance policies.

      Like many such government programs that attempt to control large portions of the economy, Obamacare is complex by design. This is the problem with government. We can't expect a handful of government bureaucrats to properly account, through legislation, for what takes place in 1/6 of the economy -- it's just not possible. It was so complex, Nancy Pelosi told us we had to pass it before we could read it. Why is anyone at all surprised it's failing?

      The free market is much simpler -- insurers offer plans that customers desire or they go out of business. Unfortunately, the government doesn't go out of business, they just take more of our time and money in exchange for an increasingly inferior product.

      If there was a single payer solution there wouldn't be any of that complexity. You would simply sign up and be covered. No choices, no options, a single plan.

      Right, we'd all be stuck with expensive, low quality healthcare with no where else to go. Due to government we already have expensive healthcare. Single payer would ensure it was low quality as well.

  23. Contractors by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    I'm sure one of the many contractors they paid 600 million bucks to will take him.

    1. Re:Contractors by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Not 600 million. Please stop spreading that lie. 70 million to day, CGI contract was 93 million.

      The FCC should force every pundit/News site you made that claim to publicly recant it, or be removed from broadcasting.

      "Independently, the Sunlight Foundation estimated it cost $70 million to build the much-maligned website, not $634 million."
      http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/24/the-myth-of-the-634-million-obamacare-website/196585

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Contractors by JeffAtl · · Score: 1

      No one is going to be convinced by a Media Matters opinion piece. You might as well cite FoxNews or Democratic Underground.

    3. Re:Contractors by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Wow, if true that is pretty brutal. All news sources seemed to be using that figure. Propaganda much?

  24. Bureaucrats != engineers by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Here's the root of the problem and would explain why Obama, Sebelius, and other bureaucrats are sticking to their guns. They believe that they are smarter than the software engineers charged with building this monstrosity. From my own experience, I once got into a pissing contest with a senior VP over something I had developed for the department. He had no background in software or computers. None. Even though the guy had a Mac on his desk, he didn't understand the concept of windows and insisted on using a single one to view his files opening hundreds of turn-down triangles. Hundreds. But I digress. The guy only understood image, flash, and how things looked. His precious weekly schedules had to look pretty rather than be functional to the point where the secretaries were spending an entire day putting together a weekly schedule in QuarkXPress. So I built a database system (with the assistance of one of the secretaries) to generate these schedules. But the database engine we had available to us, while it could use fancy fonts, didn't understand variable character widths. So printing schedules using dingbats was a nightmare. During a presentation, some flunky asked if we could make some changes. The secretary said "Well I don't know. We're jumping through a lot of hoops to make it do what you're seeing now. I don't know if it's possible." The VP said "It's possible" without even asking me. I nearly quit that day. As a matter of interest, a few of my coworkers and I had a daily reading from The Dilbert Principle.

    Point is that Obama and his minions don't understand that you can't set arbitrary deadlines for technology when they know nothing about it. It's the same as ignorant politicians setting lofty fuel economy standards without talking to automotive engineers to find out if the goal is realistic or even possible. The politicians believe their own hype in that they think they are smarter than the engineers. At the very least. One can also make the case that unrealistic goals aren't set out of ignorance but by design to suit their ideology. E.g. Set a pollution standard bar so high that it either isn't possible or that it's so expensive that nobody will bother and voila, the source of that pollution is gone taking all the benefits (jobs, consumer savings, useful product) with it. To the politician, the ends justify the means because in their mind, the citizenry is too stupid to understand it.

    1. Re:Bureaucrats != engineers by Britz · · Score: 1

      That may very well be, but once you get off your high horse and try to compare an obviously crazy guy wanting to have his weekly schedule rendered with a dtp application to a government project with a deadline, you might realize what it is: A deadline. So there is a law about something people can sign up for. So it is rather important that the website needs to be up for the deadline. You can bungle this project time and technology wise in many ways.

      I don't know how much time they actually had between the passing of the ACA and the deadline. But don't you think 12 month should be enough for any website project if you have fairly large resources and absolutely need to be finished on time? Don't you think that kind of project should be possible? Or did the ACA not pass before October 2012?

      Yes, the project was obviously bundgled in some way. But not because they didn't have enough time from the start.

    2. Re:Bureaucrats != engineers by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      The ACA was passed into law as a shell. It had very little useful details as to how it would actually work. Such details are still incomplete. So, programmatically, it's mostly a black box without very many useful outputs (and unknown inputs).

      No possible way to make a functional distributed system out of this sort of nonsense. Not in 12 months. Not in 12 years. Hell, Medicare has run since 1964 and it still has similar problems.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Bureaucrats != engineers by Terwin · · Score: 1

      I don't know how much time they actually had between the passing of the ACA and the deadline. But don't you think 12 month should be enough for any website project if you have fairly large resources and absolutely need to be finished on time? Don't you think that kind of project should be possible? Or did the ACA not pass before October 2012?

      The original law may have been passed in 2012, but all those sections with 'to be determined by the Secretary of Health and Human Services' were obviously not completed by that time.

      I would be rather surprised if all of those sections have been addressed, let alone completed, even today.

      Then there are all of those declarations like waivers and delaying the Employer mandate, changing the law by fiat after it was passed.

      Reminds me a bit of the first application I ever wrote that used a Flash front-end, every day there were new toys and functionality requested by a customer or the CEO. Scope creep can easily turn a 1 month project into a 6 month project, even without all the political BS that was doubtlessly required for Healthcare.gov.

    4. Re:Bureaucrats != engineers by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 2

      They had 3 years to get this thing working. And yet they didn't solicit A) domestic companies and B) companies with a lot of experience in handling massive amounts of users and data. 330 million people are supposed to be required to use this site. Today, it was reported that it can only handle 1100 per day. At that rate, it will take over 800 years to sign everybody up. Even if you only consider the 4.2 million people who have just had their insurance taken away from them, that's going to be 10 years before they can all sign up. So that means in order for those 4.2 million to be able to sign up during "open enrollment" (WTF does that mean anyway?) over the next six months. The site needs to be able to handle over 23000 users a day. And the number of people getting screwed out of their existing plan, oh wait, I mean "upgraded", is going to be rising steadily if not exponentially over the next six months. CNN's stat from 2010 reported that 195 million people have private insurance. If the recent reports that 40-60% of those plans aren't going to qualify, roughly 100 million people are going to need a new one. Then there's the supposed 50 million people who don't have insurance now (why does that number keep fluctuating wildly), so we're looking at about 150 million people that need to use this site. That means this site needs to be able to handle over 800,000 users per day over the next six months. The back-of-the-envelope numbers are staggering.

    5. Re:Bureaucrats != engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're absolutely right. arbitrary projects with arbitrary timelines never accomplish anything.
       
      Look I get what you're saying but you're basically claiming that NO government project can succeed and we've seen far too many successes for that to be valid.

    6. Re:Bureaucrats != engineers by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      But don't you think 12 month should be enough for any website project if you have fairly large resources and absolutely need to be finished on time?

      No, I don't think that. And if you think that, you're a fool who knows nothing about software development. You *cannot* force a huge project to be done by an arbitrary deadline by throwing more people at it. That's basic, and it's been known for decades.

  25. I hope he used plenty of soap by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

    When washed his hands of this mess and walked away.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
  26. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wasn't Vista in development under the codename "Longhorn" for like 6 years? I remember it being the butt of vaporware jokes for a long time.

    1. Re:Huh? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Wasn't Vista in development under the codename "Longhorn" for like 6 years? I remember it being the butt of vaporware jokes for a long time.

      Yes, but, if I remember correctly, it was then scrapped and a completely new version rushed out.

  27. Who would hire hime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What company would hire that guy after the health site fiasco?

  28. Ironic, yes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't this ironic? The AI machines behind the elections worked like a charm but the healthcare system is a mess.

  29. Even some Republicans are sympathetic... by adisakp · · Score: 1

    That rolling out a large website is a process that has "some glitches" but will turn out fine in the end -- much like raising children apparently.

    1. Re:Even some Republicans are sympathetic... by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      I clicked your link.

      It brought me to the top of this very page.

      I don't get it.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  30. Get whoever did Kentucky's website by UnderCoverPenguin · · Score: 1

    I keep hearing how great Kentucky's ACA website is. Has anyone looked into getting whoever did that to find out what it would take to configure/adapt it to work for other states?

    Assuming that's possible, make a website for each state the fed gov is handling and make healthcare.gov a redirecter to the state specific sites.

    --
    Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
    1. Re:Get whoever did Kentucky's website by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooh, sorry, the individual states that refused to have their own site...still refuse to have it, so there has to be a national site.

    2. Re:Get whoever did Kentucky's website by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You made me laugh with the getting the guys who did the Kentucky site to fix up the federal exchange.

  31. Re:Libertarians and Tea Partiers by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    At least you have the strawman angle covered so we dont have to worry about THAT.

  32. The biggest problem with ALL of this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Federal Govermment should have just mandated ALL states make their own exchange. Every state that has it's own exchange has been fine. Every state that wanted to drag it's feet and stall and do what it could to whine, sat back and just waited. I don't know if there is any plans, but there should be a timeline to get each and every state onto it's own exchange and off the Fed's teet by 2014's enrollment. Consider the money gone, pretend it was another ficticious war that's done and over with and we had no say in it. (I know, hard to imagine.)

    1. Re:The biggest problem with ALL of this... by Straif · · Score: 2

      They did, but as they could not legally force individual states to pay for those exchanges the Supreme Court said it was in fact optional.

      As for the "Every state that has it's own exchange has been fine" line, that's patently untrue. Many states are experiencing the same problems as the federal site, some because they have to hit the Federal site to get information, and for some that are not, that is because they are primarily handling Medicare enrollment and not actual insurance.

      Then there are actual technical problems like Hawaii, which was delayed by 2 weeks and I believe is still refusing to report any numbers from their site, and Oregon, where the Governor has told people to just mail in their applications.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
  33. Designing for Failure is Devious by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    Mr. Obama does not want the ACA. He said so on video tape.

    He stated numerous times before election as POTUS that we 'want a single payer system but can't get there all at once.'

    When you make a 2000+ page law with hundreds of references to regulations "as the secretary (of HHS) determines", it means the total effect of the law is under the control of a political appointee, meaning she bends to POTUS whims and long term desires.

    It seems POTUS wants something so complex and disruptive in the ACA, that he then has an easy task of saying "OK, to fix this ACA disaster, we're outlawing all these bad greedy insurance companies and the government will take over all healthcare insurance."

  34. ...maybe a DDOS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interesting post from Arbor Networks yesterday...
    http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11/new-denial-of-service-attack-aimed-directly-at-healthcare-gov/

  35. Re:Private sector? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Maybe some healthcare provider who is thankful that he sunk that ship?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  36. All You Obama Lovers Are in Denial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    3.5 years, nearly a billion dollars (outsourced to Canada) and this is what we get with healthcare.gov. I know you voted for CHANGE with your hearts filled full of HOPE but this is what it looks like when the government takes over 1/6 of the economy. You think it gets any better from here? This is just a taste of what's in store. Welcome to the third world, Obama lovers.

    1. Re:All You Obama Lovers Are in Denial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obama care sign-up works fine, only took a few days to get the login page to stop the spinning donut. Should be able to advance to next page any day now. Looking forward to being the seventh person to actually get through the process. It isn't broken, it's really just a test to see if your an A or B personality, then your insurance rates will be adjusted.

  37. private sector ....... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    microsoft has found their new chief executive officer!!!

  38. If only. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If only there were some simple sentence whose proper understanding could have warded off this disaster.

    Something straightforward, like:

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Where could such a simple scroll of Dispel Idiocy be located?

  39. Insider Trading by the Obamas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Obamas are currently billionaires, thanks to all the insider trading their 'blind' trusts are legally allowed to engage in. They have made hundreds of millions from Obamacare alone. You Yanks are so VERY, VERY, VERY thick, you have always allowed your political masters to legally indulge in insider trading, using the excuse that the three branches of your 'government' must be independent of one another.

    Let me make this clearer, since the average reader of Slashdot is provably far from bright. The American system is based on ONE principle. That the legal system, president, and 'parliament' do NOT have instantaneous hierarchical power over one another. The CONSTITUTION, on the other hand, is designed to be HIGHER than all three, and all three have the duty of upholding the principles of the constitution. If a court upholds the constitution over the apparent current wishes of the President or the Parliament, this does NOT represent the courts being above Parliament or the President. The point is subtle, and beyond the understanding of most here, but is not hard to understand.

    Now this independence of the three branches of government allowed profoundly wicked American politicians to argue from the beginning that no law could be passed restricting the business activities of politicians, if such actions merely exploited knowledge gained from the day to day business of being a politician. In other words, INSIDER TRADING would never ever be a criminal offence if carried out by a serving politician, or a 'retired' President.

    America has a long and disgusting history of politicians entering office 'penniless' and leaving office as billionaires (LITERALLY as billionaires). The Obamas gave the IT contracts for Obamacare purely on the basis of their own ability to profit from the project. This isn't in dispute. Democrat sheeple praise this corruption saying "well senior Republicans do exactly the same thing when they are in power", which tells you all you need to know about US politics.

    Why do you Yank sheeple even vote? The left serves the exact same masters as the right, and by voting you actually give you ACTIVE support to the system itself. Not voting is an active removal of your approval. In a modern nation, if too many people 'vote' against the current system by refusing to vote, your masters are forced to change the system, against their interests (at least in some small way). This is why your masters work so hard at election time to have a ton of their pathetic showbiz puppets jump around telling you that patriots vote, and 'traitors' don't.

    American sheeple are financially ruined and/or imprisoned every day for the 'crime' of having a neighbour with an inside take on some company stock, that allows them to make a small amount of money exploiting that information. At the same time, the most powerful people in America make hundreds of billions over year in blatant acts of insider trading, fully beyond the reach of the law. No other nation in the West is this blatant with its corruption. Obama can take a dump on each and every one of you, and one half of you actually PRAISE him for being a 'hip' 'black' 'dude' simply because he fronts 'YOUR' team. I ask you- is it possible to be any more pathetic? And when Bush III or Clinton II are doing worse to you in a few years hence, you braindead Yanks will be loving them even more.

    1. Re:Insider Trading by the Obamas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't vote or attempt to do so for a third party, but please continue calling me a sheeple while your own government has just as bad if not worse policies of surveillance and censorship than the US does. Of course, I'm sure we'll catch up to you. You're one of those arrogant brits that think your country's shit doesn't stink and those fat and stupid americans do. Well, good luck with that. I'm sure you will be considered by the patriotism detectors installed on those cameras on every street corner to be a pretty good citizen. That good ol' EU arrogance will keep you thinking that your country is on higher ground all the way up until a foot is holding your face against it.

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  43. "Still a disaster"? Really? by whitroth · · Score: 2

    I literally just went to the site on seeing this article. It took, as the Computerworld article yesterday said on the benchmarking it had done, about 3-4 sec to get to the home page. Once I told noscript to allow it, I then went to "look at options before signing up" (or whatever it was), and it responded at least as fast as slashdot loads.

    So, what is this "still a disaster"? Is the headline writer/OP right up there with Ron Paul, who let a senior campaign staffer *die* last year during the campaign, because he apparently couldn't be bothered to provide healthcare to even his senior staff, nor pay them enough to buy their own...?

                    mark "enlightened self-interest my ass"

    1. Re:"Still a disaster"? Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go put all your private, confidential, banking information into that "system" and the government will protect you when it is hacked and your identity is stolen. You can always call the whitehouse to get your identity fixed...err... nixed.

  44. Re:As a troll by gumpish · · Score: 1

    There are certain users for whom Windows (7) will provide all the functionality they need without ever needing an additional driver

    I can guarantee you that any random desktop or server is likely to need far more drivers downloaded and installed to fully function under Windows than any reasonable Linux distribution. Troll begone.

  45. wft happened to the public option? by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    I'm so glad you mentioned the 'single-payer' thing...I don't think it was a 'conspiracy' at all...why need a conspiracy? Obama had just won election and had a majority in both House/Senate...

    . It was just a means to an end - single payer.

    I completely support socialized medicine (just like how the US has a 'socialist' water system), and I have been freaking out at even the Progressives because no one is talking about the Single Payer system...

    But even more than that, I'm at a loss to explain what happened to the **PUBLIC OPTION**

    Liberals, Democrats, and news aware others should remember the 2008 Democratic Presidential Primary. It was essentially between Obama and Hillary.

    There were debates...Rachel Maddow interviews...Daily Kos blog postings...etc etc etc...ah 2008....

    One of the **major** dividing issues, both candidates agreed, was their approach to 'health care reform'

    Both wanted to 'socialize' it, but Hillary wanted her more insurance-industry favored (and Romney/Mass approved) 'health exchange' with no public option. Obama differentiated himself precisely because he was in favor of a public option. Obama won....then he won again. Then it went to Congress to make the bill for Obama to sign.

    WTF went wrong?

    Why wasn't a Public Option included in the original bill, and why is no one talking about it now???

    agree or disagree...be you 'libertarian' or actual admitted Republican...I'm not making a point of contention...just asking...anyone...wtf happened to the public option???

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:wft happened to the public option? by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      I'm not making a point of contention...just asking...anyone...wtf happened to the public option???

      The "public option" was "single payer". What happened to it is that is didn't have enough support to become law, even among the Democrat party (particularly among the Blue Dogs). That's why the idea was shelved fairly early in the design process.

    2. Re:wft happened to the public option? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The "public option" was "single payer".

      Public insurance is still insurance, it's not single payer. Under the public option you would still have to pay premiums, the difference is you would get what you paid for: coverage for health care. As opposed to Blue Cross or Wellpoint, where you premium first has to pay for the hooker and blow budget of the board.

      What happened to it is that is didn't have enough support to become law, even among the Democrat party (particularly among the Blue Dogs). That's why the idea was shelved fairly early in the design process.

      It was shelved early in the design process because the Democrats never had any real intentions of passing it. It was just marketing fluff to get out the votes, like when the fiscal conservative candidate for the GOP talks about banning abortion. He doesn't actually give a shit, he just wants the votes - same as Barack "any plan I sign must contain a public option" Obama, months after he already gave the PO away to the hospital lobby.

  46. LOL... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then you are put on a waiting list that might be a year or more till your turn. Also, most of the treatments are bottom of the barrel cheap. I have AS, I would get a NSAD like a triple strength IB Profen (3-3-3). In the states I would get embril ($1500 for box of 4 shots), which halts all progression rather than masking the inflammation.

    On top of that the service (other than the wait times) can just plain suck. A girl I know got misdiagnosed with the wrong kind of cancer, out of luck they got a second opinion from a different doctor which probably saved the girls life.

    I remember once hearing a vet that worked for a city animal shelter in edmonton saying the stray dogs get better health care then the people.

    This is coming from a dual citizen (father is canadian, mother is american).

  47. Fact is simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The notion of profit has to be driven from healthcare because healthcare is a basic, fundamental human right. The ability to pay should not even be considered. A slight 5% raise in taxes would cover everyone by a nautical mile and leave some left over. The notion of profit in healthcare is anathema. Full stop. No one should be making what some doctors are making. It's sick. Pun intended.

    1. Re:Fact is simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a right? So you support slavery? Because forcing someone to do something for someone else without pay is just that

    2. Re:Fact is simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are confusing economic systems with human rights. Healthcare is a basic right. Healthcare should be under a single-payer system where everyone has equal access with no one being unable to seek help because they have the inability to pay. Healthcare workers should be government workers under a federal charter with a standard pay scale like GS positions -- getting more pay with time in service. The notion of profit is anathema. If a doctor is willing to treat a patient better because the money is better, they are in the field for the wrong reasons. I've lived under the US and European systems. I assure you, the EU model is a better one. I've never had issues with it. Here in the US, it's the for-profit providers getting in the way of the doctors and patients, and/or doctors who are greedy. My Canadian friends are likewise unimpressed with the US system. Cubans have better access to healthcare than US citizens do. Read up on this for yourself... if you dare to see the truth. Capitalism and healthcare should be separated. Capitalism is fine for selling goods. It reeks for healthcare.

    3. Re:Fact is simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the fact remains, forcing someone to do something for someone else without compensation is slavery. you have no right to other peoples stuff, their time or their talents

    4. Re:Fact is simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously have reading comprehension problems. I stated above that healthcare workers would be on the GS pay scale. Go look at the GS pay scale for what VA healthcare workers make. You will come away with a different opinion.

  48. Re:" aggressive schedule " mean impossible schedul by Salgak1 · · Score: 2

    Come now, you KNOW nothing is impossible to anyone who doesn't have to do it themselves. . . .

  49. He may have been requested to leave by Straif · · Score: 3, Interesting

    News reports are now saying he refused to sign off on the websites security.

    When he wouldn't sign off on the website they went over his head to get a temporary security authorization from his boss, who, despite several warnings about holes throughout the system, didn't seem to have an issue signing off.

    So as it turns out he may have been the only competent person there.

    --
    Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
  50. Re:Inevitable by Straif · · Score: 1

    That seems to fit this situation to a tee.

    Trenkle refused to sign off on the security of the website so they were over his head and got his boss to say everything was fine, regardless of reports showing there are still several major holes.

    --
    Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
  51. BULL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Obamacare has NOTHING to do with healthcare. Its about transfering your wealth, to the filthy rich olagarchy, and about getting you under their control.

    It's only the perception of reality that it's something you need and required of you, but it's not, and our society has several such illusions.

    CREDIT SCORE
    ILLUSION: It is a common belief that this is a very important number, and required for you to get anywhere in life, becuase it's required for you to get a loan, and the more loans you get, the higher your credit score, which is a good thing.

    FACT: Credit score is nothing but a way for financial institutions to determine how easy it is for them to make money off of you. If you do not use credit; do not have any loans, and simply save your money and pay cash, then you will quickly realize that the credit score will have ZERO impact on your life.

    1. Re:BULL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said and so true. If more people would live with themselves in mind and not pleasing corporations, we would all be better off.

      IPOs, credit scores, health insurance, it all sucks, it's all a farce.

  52. So Much Wrong, Where to Start??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    - Affordable Heathcare Act - an extremely complex law that is very hard to comprehend. The bill itself is huge but the resulting regulations have been estimated to take 33,000 pages to print out! There are over 9,000 regulations, each requiring multiple pages to document.
    - Government outsourced to Canadian vendor who has track history of major IT problems in the past with the Canadian government but whose executives are friends with the Obama's
    - No Bid / No Limit Contract - meaning no competition to win the contract and no spending limit while government reserves the right to make changes on the fly and still pay for everything
    - Started two years too late to get the project started because they were still working out understanding the AHA rules and regulations and many of those regulations were still going through re-writes and changes.
    - Once the business requirements were actually in the hands of developers the government was apparently in charge of project management but no one doing the project management had any experience in the matter yet pulled down six figure salaries and GI benefits!
    - There would be weekly changes to said requirements
    - No oversight committee of IT system architects, no beautiful vision of how it would all come together
    - Add more contractor companies who built different pieces independently of each other (account registration / creation, etc.)
    - Need to interface with 20 different outside systems from the IRS, Credit Bureaus, Insurance Companies, and a boat load of government departments, etc.
    - Add enormous red tape to get anything accomplished
    - Forget the Military Industrial Complex what you had here was an outsourced IT Industrial Complex sucking money out of Uncle Sam and ultimately tax payers pockets while not delivering a functional system
    - Zero testing of individually developed portions. Seems they just slapped it together and threw the Go Live switch.
    - Zero security testing (this ought to be fun once the system is populated with juicy private identity data) McAfee was right, it's a hackers wet dream
    - Rehire the exact same Canadian firm that messed up to fix the broken system
    - Hire super brains to come in and look at the system, "Excuse me while I cash this check first. Hmmm, let's see here... Yep, you're F*cked! Might as well start over from the beginning! You have a steaming pile of useless code and architecture that I am surprised even ran without crashing! Which way is the door, I am done here!"
    - CIO of MMS "I am so out of here! Pay me my contract, I quit!" - Walks away with likely millions in golden parachute. Goes and gets another job in the private sector. He'll be employed in 6 months. CIO's are not directly involved they have a 1,000 IT staffers reporting beneath them. Yet they are where the buck stops and he should have been raising cain a whole lot sooner. Maybe he did and he was ignored... Never know the truth...

    Who is at fault? (We all are)

    1. The POTUS
    2. The Democrats (not one single Republican voted for it nor worked on it) they own this one
    3. The voters who re-elected the POTUS and said Democrats (the true believers who believed the lies)
    4. Kathleen Sebelius
    5. The GOP who made Romney the choice for the ticket
    6. The Conservative voters who failed to turn out to vote because Romney was a social liberal Mormon
    7. Whoever thought it was a good idea to have so much business logic in the client side JavaScript while it waited on backend system responses...

    This would have never happened in the private sector and if it did, it would have been killed a heck of a lot sooner and re-done or the project would be permanently abandoned.

    Honestly, it seems it was all designed to fail and collapse. So that white horse of socialized medicine can ride up and deliver death to the people in new and interesting ways. That may have been the plan all along but I know better, it's not the plan. It was pure incompetence on the part of everyone involved. No government IT system succeeds on the first go around. Not one...

  53. It was going to have problems no matter what... by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    about 30%-40% of the country is actively doing everything in their power to stop it. We've got entire states where the leadership there is outright flaunting federal law. The sad thing is it tends to be the states with the most people in need of help, where the 'leadership' did everything they could to prevent their constituents from getting that help...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  54. blame Dems in Congress then right? by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    It was shelved early in the design process because the Democrats never had any real intentions of passing it.....same as Barack "any plan I sign must contain a public option" Obama

    So was it the Dem's in Congress who didn't want it? Or was it Obama?

    It seems to me you're putting the blame on Obama for something Dem's in Congress caved on...

    You're telling me, if the Dem's in Congress had passed ACA with a "public option" that Obama would have **vetoed** it??? I don't buy it...

    It's more likely that **Obama** wanted the "public option" but the Dem's in Congress (like the pussies they are) caved and tried to be "bipartisan" with the GOP...to their failure...

    Back to GP's conspiracy theory....NO Obama did not *want* the ACA to fail...but he knew it would without a public option...that doesn't mean he **wants** it to fail...

    It's like a just a dumb drunk friend at a party. He wants to jump over the bonfire....you warn him it's too far to jump but he won't listen....he's too drunk to physically restrain w/o a scuffle, so you warn him and let physics take its course. Did you **want** your drunk buddy to fall in the fire? NO...you tried your best to prevent it....but you still **videotape his attempt on your phone!!!** that doesn't mean you **made** him fall in the fire!

    Obama can't phsyically forces Dem's in Congress to have a spine and be professional...and he can't trash the shitty version of the ACA that they passed either...

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:blame Dems in Congress then right? by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      So was it the Dem's in Congress who didn't want it? Or was it Obama?

      Half the Dems wanted it, half didn't. Obama wanted it. Basically half the Dems who didn't want it + all the Republicans who didn't want it == wasn't gonna happen.

      It seems to me you're putting the blame on Obama for something Dem's in Congress caved on...

      It's not at all uncommon in American political discussions to do this kind of bullshit. Basically a failure of the party is a failure of the president in charge. This is also why you hear lots of vitriol against Bush when referring to past events, but not much against anyone else. You'd think presidents were dictators the way people behave.

      It's more likely that **Obama** wanted the "public option" but the Dem's in Congress (like the pussies they are) caved and tried to be "bipartisan" with the GOP...to their failure...

      No, there was no bipartisan effort. The Dems in Congress didn't want a public option (or at least not enough of them to get it passed). It's as simple as that. Bipartisanship wasn't even attempted until the Republicans regained control of the House.

      Back to GP's conspiracy theory....NO Obama did not *want* the ACA to fail...but he knew it would without a public option...that doesn't mean he **wants** it to fail...

      But there's some truth to the claims that Obama knew there would be issues. For instance, he knew people would lose their insurance plans despite claims that "if you like your plan, you can keep your plan". There are many things he knew about ACA, but didn't broadcast to the public because it would cast the law in a negative light and give the Republicans more fuel against the bill.

      and he can't trash the shitty version of the ACA that they passed either...

      This is not a matter of "they passed" -- this was a joint passage, and he was on board. Given the choice of passing the shit or going back to the drawing board to craft a smaller, less complex piece of legislation without a supermajority (namely, something bipartisan and likely less prone to complications), he opted for "passing the shit". He is every bit to blame for this as the Dems in Congress. Particularly since he has/had an enormous amount of influential power from the bully pulpit.

      So in summary, that is why we have the shit we do today: because the Dems (+Obama) would rather pass partisan legislation they knew to have major flaws than sit down with Republicans and find sensible middle ground.

  55. Re:Libertarians and Tea Partiers by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

    Do you feel smart because you used 'straw man' incorrectly? Never mind not being able to spell it correctly. (Hint: to begin with I'd have to have been be trying to oppose his argument.)

    --
    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
  56. Government corruption by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    Exactly. And it is far worse than that. A lot of what will result as the Affordable Care Act is not decided in the law, but depends on someone or agency submitting a report. Search for the words "shall submit" using the Edit > Search feature in Adobe Acrobat. There are at least 149 requirements to submit a report!!!

    The acronym "MTM" is defined on page 1,056 as "medication management". Begin reading on that page, for example, to realize the enormity of what is not yet defined just in that area.

    The Certified Full-Text Version: Affordable Care Act (PDF - 4.27 MB) is 2,409 pages of italics. A student who wrote so poorly would get a failing grade. Why such a mess? Maybe those who wrote it don't want taxpayers to read it.

    Here are just 50 of the 149 instances of the phrase "shall submit":
    plan shall submit claims for reim5 bursement to the Secretary which shall contain 6 documentation
    Labor, shall submit a report to the appropriate 10 committees of Congress concerningâ" 11"(
    Secretary shall submit a report to the 15 appropriate committees of Congress containing a 16
    shall submit to Congress, within the 15-day pel5 riod beginning on the date
    shall submit to the appropriate committees of 21 Congress a report on the study
    Exchange shall submit the information 25 provided by an applicant under subsection
    Secretary shall submit to the Commissioner 6 of Social Security the following information for 7
    Secretary shall submit to the Secretary 7 of Homeland Security the information de8 scribed in
    Secretary shall submit 3 the information described in subsection (b)(3)(A) pro4 vided
    State shall submit a re25 port to the Secretary
    Services shall submit a report to 24 the appropriate committees of Congress on the total
    State shall submit to the Sec24 retary for the Secretary's approval the
    shall submit to Congress and make available 19 to the public an interim report
    shall submit to Congress and make available 24 to the public a final report
    shall submit a report to Congress on the results of the 11 demonstration project.
    Secretary shall submit to Congress a report con2 taining the results of the evaluation and
    section shall submit 6 to the Secretary an application at such time, in such man7
    shall submit to the Secretary, at such time and in 10 such format as
    Secretary shall submit to Congress and make 14 available to the public a report on
    and shall submit with any
    State shall submit to the Secretary, in such form and 3 manner as the Secretary
    entity shall submit 3 a report to the Secretary demonstrating improve4 ments (if any)
    section shall submit an applical5 tion to the Secretary for approval, in such manner as
    Secretary shall submit a report to Congress on the 3 results of the evaluation conducted
    Secretary shall submit
    States shall submit to Congress 19 an interim report containing the results of 20 the
    States shall submit to Congress a re4 HR 3590 EAS/PP port containing the results
    ices shall submit to Congress a report containing 10 the results of the study conducted
    hospital shall submit to the 18 Secretary data on quality measures specified 19 under subparagraph
    facility shall submit to the 22 Secretary data on quality measures specified 23 under subparagraph
    program shall submit to the Sec4 retary data on quality measures specified under 5 subparagraph
    v) shall submit data 15 to the Secretary in accordance with paragraph (2) 16
    section shall submit to the Sec20 retary data on quality measures specified under 21 paragraph
    Secretary shall submit to Congress 18 a report containing the plan developed under paral9 graph
    Secretary shall submit to Congress 11 a report containing the plan developed under paral2 graph
    Secretary shall submit to Congress a report con3 taining the results of the study conduct

  57. Layers and layer of incompetence by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    MOD PARENT UP! See my comment above for more details about the incompetence.

  58. So you want to join the public sector, eh? by DrStoooopid · · Score: 1

    ...so tell me again about your last project, and what steps did you take to complete it successfully?

    --
    There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
  59. No one seems to get it by Benders · · Score: 1

    This attempt at rolling out ObamaCare is tantamount to eating a full-grown elephant in one big bite! These folks have no clue what they are doing. And the personnel responsible for the actual coding are hardly to blame. They were told to create a web portal that would allow customer's to shop for health insurance. Quite literally at the 11th hour, our Leader changed the game completely on them! Instead of the site having the task of helping customer's find insurance, it was converted in an information gathering site. And only after all the personal information is collected, are the customers even allowed to reach the information they need to make a decision on their healthcare. This is NOT about Healthcare, it is about controlling a population! If it wasn't so obvious this law has hidden agenda's before its rollout there can be no doubt now. And there will be no delay in the implementation, because the President cannot allow this rollout to stop, or even slow down. If he delays it, he opens the door for others to demand delays as well. As long as the schedule remains untouched the other side cannot change it either. The country now knows for certain that he has been lying to them from the very beginning. And no one has gotten incensed enough to call for the President's resignation publicly, so there is no reason for the President to tell the truth about anything for the rest of his term. The President and his political cronies think we are all too stupid to be living in the first place. Millions of people were paying for their healthcare, with the policies that fulfilled their needs, as far as they were concerned. So, what does the ACA do? It makes all those policies obsolete by regulating them out of existence! Then our Liar-in-Chief tries to blame the dastardly Insurance companies for cancelling the coverage, when his own regulations made keeping those policies impossible, and he knew that was true, because that was a very important part of his plan in the first place. No insurance company would REQUIRE a late-twenties Male customer to include maternity care in an individual policy. It takes the Government to do something that stupid and unfair.

  60. Is anyone really paying attention? by Benders · · Score: 1

    Exactly who, that knows anything about computers, web security, networking, etc. would place their private, personal, information in this system? The web portal is the tip of the iceberg. Based on what we seen so far why would anyone have any expectation that any information they place on this site, will remain private? Just go put it up on Facebook and save everyone the trouble! Just go print out all the information required on the ACA web site, and post it on the bulletin board of your local Walmart, the odds of it remaining private are the same. This disaster is just getting started! For those that cannot afford to privately "retain" a Doctor in the same manner as people and corporations retain attorneys, will all suffer in multiple ways. Their healthcare is headed for the dumpster. They may not be able to even keep their family doctor, even if he is the most knowledgeable person in the world regarding their physical and mental health! It remains to be seen if you can even keep your Pharmacist, or go to the closest Hospital when hospital care is called for. Regular hard-working, tax-contributing, Americans are going to get continually hurt by this badly thought-out, ill-conceived and executed, piece of legislation. And the only reason for that is one person's ego. Any other reasonable person sitting in the Oval Office who didn't have an axe to grind with the majority of Americans would have halted this whole rollout until the whole program itself could be completed, secured, and tested exhaustively.

  61. Private sector = Republican Thinktank? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am wondering if Trenkle's move to the private sector would be to a Republican Thinktank that helped orchestrate the failure of the roll out This fiasco is fertile ground for conspiracy theories How can you NOT KNOW about security holes and bad programming, unless you are getting paid to install them or overlook them?