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US Wary of Allowing Russian Electronic Monitoring Stations Inside US
cold fjord writes "The New York Times reports, '... the next potential threat from Russia may not come from a nefarious cyberweapon or secrets gleaned from Snowden. Instead, this menace may come in the form of a ... dome-topped antenna perched atop an electronics-packed building surrounded by a security fence somewhere in the United States. ... the Central Intelligence Agency and the Pentagon have been quietly waging a campaign to stop the State Department from allowing ... the Russian space agency, to build about half a dozen ... monitor stations, on United States soil ... These monitor stations, the Russians contend, would significantly improve the accuracy and reliability of Moscow's version of the Global Positioning System ... The Russian effort is part of a larger global race by several countries ... to perfect their own global positioning systems and challenge the dominance of the American GPS. For the State Department, permitting Russia to build the stations would help mend the Obama administration's relationship with the government of President Vladimir V. Putin ... But the C.I.A. and other American spy agencies, as well as the Pentagon, suspect that the monitor stations would give the Russians a foothold on American territory that would sharpen the accuracy of Moscow's satellite-steered weapons. The stations, they believe, could also give the Russians an opening to snoop on the United States within its borders. ... administration officials have delayed a final decision until the Russians provide more information and until the American agencies sort out their differences.'"
It must be a doomsday device. There were those of us who fought against it, but in the end we could not keep up with the expense involved in the arms race, the space race, and the peace race. At the same time our people grumbled for more nylons and washing machines. Our doomsday scheme cost us just a small fraction of what we had been spending on defense in a single year. The deciding factor was when we learned that your country was working along similar lines, and we were afraid of a doomsday gap.
Somewhere in the United States (dramatic pause)
the Central Intelligence Agency and the Pentagon (dramatic pause)
have been quietly waging a campaign (dramatic pause)
to stop the State Department from allowing (dramatic pause)
I can't be the only person who is getting this out of the overuse of ... in the summary.
Why would the US support GLONASS when it has GPS?
... If... you use an Ellipsis... frequently and... hastily people will think... you are William Shatner...
KAHN!
"But the C.I.A. and other American spy agencies, as well as the Pentagon, suspect that the monitor stations would give the Russians a foothold on American territory that would sharpen the accuracy of Moscow's satellite-steered weapons"
Begging the question "aren't current nukes sufficiently accurate"?
The smart countermeasure would be to monitor the monitoring stations and be ready to destroy them at no notice. Have both HERF/jamming and explosive capability available.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
We need the jobs assholes!
Our economy is in shambles and these morons are worried about the Russians listening in - on what? Talk Radio?!
Police chatter?
After all, that's what America would do if the situation were reversed ....
I think I read in the NY Times that the US does not have any GPS ground stations in Russia. If we did, it would be a hard thing to say no to.
No it doesn't. If you bother to read the story it states, "The United States has stations around the world, but none in Russia."
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
No. The USA has stations scattered around the world in multiple locations, but none are in Russia.
Casual web search just turns up articles about the new stations in the US.
If we don't already have equivalent stations in Russia, we could offer them a trade. They get theirs when we get ours.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
No, we wouldn't want any spying taking place...
Or any of the former satellites of the CCCP for that matter. The authoritative list is here.
There's really no good reason for the US to allow this. But it raises an interesting question about US outposts abroad to admit to that, doesn't it?
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Here's the US ground station map. http://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/control/ Nothing in Russia.
Can't the Russians just put theirs in Cuba?
This has very little to do with tactical capability, its has much more to do with dominance the GPS system. Yes GPS is used for tactical weapon guidance but there are land based solutions that can be deployed during war/conflict/invasion, but the money involved in an accurate GPS system is much, much more valuable, Not to mention the cyberwar capability, I don't believe for a second that the russian fears of data manipulation are unfounded.
One interesting thing I learned from the article is that many (?most) current smartphones use both Glonass and the US GPS system for position fixes.
One motivation for this is the Russian requirement which heavily taxes devices which don't support Glonass. Apparently the iPhone 4S started support and many others also added support.
I guess it's good to have two systems (with a possible third with the EU system). This can provide redundancy and improve reliability. Of course these are useful tools for warfare which is why we have several systems ("We've always been at war with Eastasia").
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Citation, please? I can't believe Russia ever let the US put any such thing in place - I remember the insistence on local labor building the American embassy in Moscow, which had so much monitoring built into the walls that it was heavily rebuilt as soon as it was handed over.
Besides, what does GPS need ground stations for? Homing beacons?
The State Department position reminds me of Keith Laumer's Corps Diplomatique Terrestrienne. I suppose that was art imitating life, so no surprise that the next generation's life imitates that art.
So, the Russians want to monitor stuff inside the US borders. Ok, so what?
To flip what we've heard from the NSA around, "If we're not doing anything wrong, we don't have to worry."
In point of fact, letting the Russians monitor internal military chatter sounds like a good idea to me. That way, they -know- we aren't planning on attacking them. And.. by the way, we -aren't- planning on attacking the Russians, are we? If we are, _I_ would like to know about it, forget what the Russians know.
The days of Red Baiting should be over. We should have an open society, and if the Russians want to eavesdrop, more power to them. Truthfully, I'm a lot more worried about what our own government wants to keep track of than I am about what any Russians (or Chinese) want to track. And if it improves the accuracy of their weapons, does that mean that they're more likely to blow up a military base than the local YMCA? That's good, isn't it?
Don't take life too seriously; it isn't permanent.
The smart countermeasure would be to monitor the monitoring stations and be ready to destroy them at no notice. Have both HERF/jamming and explosive capability available.
It only seems smart because you don't know a thing bout what you are talking about.
A monitoring base station, used to tune and improve the accuracy of GLONASS, would not be missed by the GLONASS system after your theoretical "smart' countermeasure. Your countermeasure would also completely fail to mitigate against the risk of this monitoring station being turned into a Russian SIGINT listening station on U.S. soil. Think of it in terms of the CIA building a listening post in Moscow, an idea that the Russians would not likely agree to.
The NSA will just tap the communications lines out of that facility and get a copy of everything moving in and out, anyway.
My thoughts exactly. They already have one in Brazil.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Counter-offer with a bi-lateral agreement, allowing us to put as many monitoring stations in Russia ;-)
In Soviet USA not allowing Russians something is like not allowing mother into her own home.
USA IS new Russia with overbuilt military industry and security forces everywhere.
Before it's too late....
The US wants to keep exclusive rights to spy on other people.
Sorry guys, but yours is so widespread taking this position is bordering on the absurd.
What's the big deal? The Russians have had a monitoring station in the US for decades. Specifically, there's a spot in the middle of the US that has line-of-sight to all satellites that carry phone calls in/out of the US. And there are three trailers there, one run by the NSA (remember, it was clearly illegal until quite recently, for the US to tapping all calls into and out of the US, which is what they've been doing for decades, though a shell corporation), one that operates for the Russians, and the third a private US corporation that captures and sells data as a business. I've been told (can't say by who) that they know about each other, and aren't even located far from each other.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
Also the Russians will pay for the land they use, so the U.S. makes money.
Make the allowance for them on the condition that our military controls the us infrastructure and have the ability to send false data at a moments notice. This to my understanding is how GPS is set up.
for adjustment. you know, to go from 5 meters to 1, like it mattered for the kind of bombs they're afraid of.
I'd be really surprised if they didn't have one in their embassy in Moscow.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Except that... the USA... already have lots of those... stations... in Russia themselves, iirc about 17.
Mr. Shatner, what are you doing on Slashdot?
grow a fooking pair americans and stop the nazi bullshit
No way, it was closer to about 100, iirc. could be a thousand.
2013 America is the country that thought it'd be a good idea to pay 2013 Canada, which can't build a website, to build a website.
Maybe they need something further north. Try Canada - let's see what their NORAD people think.
He'll have more flexibility after the next election.
Putin and his nationalist thug buddies are just reaching for another opportunity to turkey-slap the West in the wake of the West's embarrassment after Ed Snowden's Guardian bum-buddies' appalling act of political sabotage. Putin has been handed a massive propaganda coup and is milking it for all its worth.
It's a deliberate, calculated insult, given that the US has no GPS ground stations on Russian soil, and have no prospect of building any.
The Kremlin will be quietly TTFO and that'll be the end of it. Hopefully a non-story.
But only countries like Russia and China spy on people and hack. American agencies would never ever do that.
permitting Russia to build the stations would help mend the Obama administration's relationship with the government of President Vladimir V. Putin
Why is this necessary? I thought giving Russia a red plastic button who's meaning was lost in translation was all that was necessary. Hillary Clinton's skills at international relations were all that was necessary to improve relations. Right?
http://www.eurodialogue.org/osce/The-Reset-At-One-Year-The-View-From-Moscow
Shatner please.
Only difference is that we have no Retief...
A monitoring station looks like a pretty hard to find thing.
If they want some here, they probably already have some.
Why would they ask, except maybe to cover the ones they didn't ask about?
Of maybe to get a site where they can do something more complicated.
Preventing cheap targeting that is not dependent on GPS is a noble goal.
but is seems likely that that ship has sailed.
Perhaps security theater?
Something new from cold fjord - a story/concern that most Slashdotters agree with. Cold (if I may presume to use your first name), I think this demonstrates that most Slashdotters are not naive fools who think we live in a completely friendly world. Rather, if I may speak for most others, we think many of the tactics used in fighting terrorism are overly intrusive (and sometimes downright un-Constitutional), dangerous to our freedom, and either marginally or completely ineffective. For example, 9/11 could have been prevented with old-fashioned police work. For example, FBI headquarters listening to a report from a field office, which in turn they were given by an astute flight instructor, of some gentlemen who wanted to learn to fly but didn't care about takeoffs and landings (at least not of the preferred variety).
Do we really need a Cuban Cartography Crisis?
Ezekiel 23:20
The biggest threat to most Gov. agencies is malware*. If the Pentagon can't protect itself, I don't see how other gov. agencies can.
On another note, the fact that TFA labels Snowden+Russia as a "potential threat from Russia" there is enough bias in the article to ignore the illegal activity of the NSA. If the NSA had been operating within the letter of the law, Snowden would have nothing to leak, Russia no need to give asylum, and NYT wouldn't be publishing an article worrying about 1960 spy technology.
http://www.finextra.com/news/fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=22157
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
OK that will be fine. Thanks for the warning. Just let us know if you would be so kind when we should bend over and kiss our asses goodbye.
That would probably be extremely useful to them since the launch trajectory of their land based missiles would be over the North Pole.
how does this make any sense? even if there are no hidden agendas or spying tech in these 'monitoring stations'...the openly stated agenda is to "These monitor stations, the Russians contend, would significantly improve the accuracy and reliability of Moscow's version of the Global Positioning System ... The Russian effort is part of a larger global race by several countries ... to perfect their own global positioning systems and challenge the dominance of the American GPS"
why in the fuck would we want to help russian (or any foreign) entities compete with american entities? *my head explodes*
how is it possible for such a stupid, anti-american idea to survive this long?
Hahaha
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Nor would the Swedes and Finns ever do that.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Too late, the Cuban Cartography Crisis Program has already started!
You know it increases my paranoia, like looking in the rearview mirror and seeing a police car.
(At my advanced age, not cutting my hair doesn't really achieve much).
Or, perhaps, "The paranoia is strong in this one."
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
omg! you've won a herp da derp award, Yay!!!! pick up your prize at herpderp.ru
Why not just buy some land in rural areas, construct a barn looking thing as a decoy (out of a material that's transparent to the instruments within), ship redundant parts across several ports and assemble under the cover of darkness. Difficult and expensive to do without being detected? Maybe, but surely within the realm of possibility for the Russian government...
Hah, that graphics and typography reminded me of my favourite Linux game. ;-)
Ezekiel 23:20
an AC **invents a statistic out of thin air** and it get's a +1 Informative
if Russia doesn't have these GPS substations for the US why the hell are we even considering it?
Russia isn't a 'communist' country threating us with their liberal communal ideas, atheism, and free love
Russia is a giant chunk of resources controlled by Oligarchs fighting like Dukes for control of a water source
Russian people are just like us
The concept that totalitarian regimes equate to 'communism' in the philosophical sense is one of the biggest lies of the 20th Century
Thank you Dave Raggett
...oh well..
I hate to spoil it for them; but everybody's a sinner. Once you've looked into a few dozen pervs, it gets kind of boring. When you have access to everything on everybody, it doesn't take long to get bored. Then, there's no place to go for a stronger information fix. We're witnessing the security community's last desperate chance for that elusive end to all highs of snoopery. There's not much further to go. They just don't have the manpower to put an agent in everybody's bedroom or the authority to demand a global orgy of entrapment-based crack-smoking. In the shadowy urban canyons beneath their onion domes of surveillance we will find them. They'll be rolling in their own filth, begging just a bit more tax dollars for a little bit of dirt on the seventy-year old granny from Iowa who might have short-changed the milkman. They'll take the information in with a fleeting grin and return almost immediately to their flailing and convulsing. Everybody's a sinner. The Bible told us, but you just had to see for yourself. You'll start spying on yourself, eating your own flesh, rotting away under the noon-day sun. I hate to spoil it for them; but of course I really can't. It's their destiny. It's their machine. They are their own machine. Switch off.
We have monitoring stations in the US, They have monitoring stations in Russia. Why don't we arrange to exchange data? That way nobody has to worry about "spying". Each will know what data the other has.
That way, our Trident subs lurking under the polar icecap will be able to use the improved GLONASS data to improve their targeting.. The Russian boomers in the sea of Okhotsk will do likewise.
And the world's economy will benefit from improved combined GPS / GLONASS accuracy.
The next potential threat from Russia may not come from...secrets gleaned from Snowden
Of course not, because Snowden hasn't revealed anything to the Russians that he hasn't also revealed to the American public.
The next potential threat may not come from Unicorns, Klingons, or garden gnomes either. The suggestion that Snowden is somehow helping the Russians is a strong indicator of government propaganda.
Yet when the USA want to plant snoopers on Russian borders, then the Ruskies are just being paranoid about being angry with that.
PS Everyone spies on everyone else, right?
So why not let the monitoring be out in the open? You know they're listening ANYWAY, so why not?
I'd wager on their missiles having plenty of accuracy without additional monitoring stations.
"NO COMPETITION ALLOWED! Remember, this is CAPITALISM, we don't allow competing spy networks to listen in on our people!"
It is cool that you can just lie about stuff if you include "iirc".
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Because if competing means you lose, then you should be replaced.
It's called capitalism.
>> The C.I.A. and other American spy agencies, as well as the Pentagon, suspect that the monitor stations would give the Russians a foothold on American territory that would sharpen the accuracy of Moscow's satellite-steered weapons.
This just seems to emphasise how many old dudes still doing outdated cold-war era thinking there are in the US government/military. Call me strange but I think Russia is probably near the bottom of the threat list of organisations that would militarily attack the US homeland. That said I would be VERY surprised if the real purpose of those "GPS" stations weren't to provide cover for monitoring operations on US telecommunications. I guess nobody told the Russians that you can get Rush Limbaugh through the internet now.
I dont see what the US has to potentially gain from allowing this at all, so why they would even apparently be considering it?
Surely there must be a way we can sell them gps data rather than letting them build these things to get it for free.
I'm surprised the GLONASS people even need permission. A monitoring station is just a fixed GLONASS receiver with a data connection. It receives position information and transmits it back to HQ, where a map of corrections for atmospheric effects is constructed and corrections are sent out via the satellites. Since when do you need permission for a receiver?
The iPhone 4S and later models use GLONASS and GPS together to improve accuracy. So ad-targeting needs this correction system in place so Apple knows exactly what store you're in front of.
ICBM targeting doesn't use satellite signals. It's all inertial, so it can't be jammed. Accurate coordinates for any desired target are available from Google Maps. This has no military significance.
Oh please. The US puts whatever it wants wherever it wants with little consideration for dissent.
Why the fuck would we want to help the Russians build their own GPS? That's the dumbest reason for letting them build spying outposts in our own country ever. Why not just donate some stealth bombers to their military while we are at it. After all the only reason other countries are trying to duplicate the GPS is because they don't trust the US. There is no technological reason for doing it.
Besides, what does GPS need ground stations for?
You need ground stations for SBAS (WAAS is the GPS SBAS, not sure whether GLONASS currently has an equivalent and if so what it's called); there main function is to measure ionospheric delay characteristics, process the results, and upload it to the satellites so GPS/GLONASS devices with SBAS capability can receive it and use it to refine their position estimates.
They could but it would not be as accurate in the US. Yea I do not see any need for this. They could just send us the equipment and the US could send the corrections to them. I am sure Raytheon would be glad to do it for a fee.
Yea and as far as repairing relations with Putian? Ahhh no.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
That is a super informative link. Surprising for a .gov public site.
The U.S. is not stable enough to have Russia come and muck up our infrastructure with their comic antics.
Help the Russians set up a program that allows them to create a GPS system that will compete with the U.S.
or
Help the Russians set up a program that allows them to create a GPS system that will compete with the U.S........and which could be actively shut down / hacked/ sabatoged within U.S. borders if an "incident" ever arose. And which Russian "allies" are likely to sign on to use this alternative? Why China, North Korea, Iran, and Syria of course.
If all the revelations about the NSA show anything, it's that everyone is busy spying on everyone. Therefore the U.S. should presume that these stations will be used, at least tangentially, for that purpose. Note that that is not necessarily a reason to decline the request. If properly managed, it could be used by the U.S. security apparatus to better monitor and determine Russia's own capabilities. It could also be a useful way to "leak" sensitive sounding FUD back to the motherland.
Check out the international GNSS service: http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/ This is a NASA-run program that simultaneously monitors GPS and GLONASS signals all over the world for scientific purposes. Not the same as an official ground control station, but it's not fair to say this would be breaking entirely new ground.
So what would you call it?
Big Mother or Brother Russia?
to whom is Obama trying to 'improve his standing'?
Russians?
WTF...like Russian citizens? the gangsters who pull Putin's strings?
Why would we care about our 'standing' with a criminal state like Russia?
The people pushing for these substations...they are not our friends...why the fuck would we want to make a 'concession' to them?
Thank you Dave Raggett
Given that Sweden is just a US puppet state and Finland is an extremely insular paranoid society then what are you expecting my reaction to be here? surprise? shock?
Or are you using the age old fallacy of "Others do it so it's okay"?
too poor to fight