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Study Linking GM Maize To Rat Tumors Is Retracted

ananyo writes "Bowing to scientists' near-universal scorn, the journal Food and Chemical Toxicology has fulfilled its threat to retract a controversial paper which claimed that a genetically modified (GM) maize causes serious disease in rats after the authors refused to withdraw it. The paper, from a research group led by Gilles-Eric Séralini, a molecular biologist at the University of Caen, France, and published in 2012, showed 'no evidence of fraud or intentional misrepresentation of the data,' said a statement from Elsevier, which publishes the journal. But the small number and type of animals used in the study means that 'no definitive conclusions can be reached.' The known high incidence of tumors in the Sprague-Dawley rat 'cannot be excluded as the cause of the higher mortality and incidence observed in the treated groups,' it added. Today's move came as no surprise. Earlier this month, the journal's editor-in-chief, Wallace Hayes, threatened retraction if Séralini refused to withdraw the paper, which is exactly what he announced at a press conference in Brussels this morning. Séralini and his team remained unrepentant, and allege that the retraction derives from the journal's editorial appointment of biologist Richard Goodman, who previously worked for biotechnology giant Monsanto for seven years."

63 of 341 comments (clear)

  1. seems a bit strange by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Imo, withdrawing papers makes sense mainly if there is indeed, "evidence of fraud or intentional misrepresentation of the data". Faked data doesn't help advance science, and should be purged from the record.

    But merely questionable conclusions are another story. Science is a back-and-forth process: someone publishes a study purporting to show X, and then someone else criticizes their conclusions, re-analyzes their data, attempts to replicate it, etc. Then they publish their own conclusions, purporting to show not-X. Withdrawing the original study in this case doesn't make sense to me, if it was not fraudulent: we don't typically retroactively go into old journals and blank out the articles that have subsequently turned out to be wrong. We just write new articles with better analysis.

    1. Re:seems a bit strange by cranky_chemist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are correct.

      Weak science and insufficient sample sizes are matters for the journal's referees to suss out and, if necessary, recommend that the journal not publish the paper. The fact that the paper passed peer review should have the journal re-examining their editorial/peer-review policies.

      Ultimately, the decision to publish (and responsibility for publishing) a paper lies with the journal's editor in chief.

    2. Re:seems a bit strange by flaming+error · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree. If Elsevier thought the study was too weak, they shouldn't have published it.

      Asking the authors to retract it makes it look like they just wanted to save face by not doing it themselves. Didn't work.

      The "Nature" post says Elsevier bowed to "scientists' near-universal scorn"; I have no idea what that means. It suggests perhaps that the study was unconvincing. But it's Elsevier's job to screen for that. It's not their job to retroactively delete honest experiments with honest data which have been honestly reproduced and peer-reviewed because of negative letters to the editor.

    3. Re:seems a bit strange by gregor-e · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The case made for withdrawal bases its objections on bad science. The response from the authors was an ad-hominem attack against one of the editors.

    4. Re:seems a bit strange by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One cannot rule out the lesser-sized, but very real industry of trumping up faux problems for the purpose of becoming talking heads.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    5. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Think of it this way, imagine someone did a study, where a single kid was vaccinated and later got autism. The authors of this study drew the conclusion that vaccines cause autism.

      Would you consider that to be poor science? Because that is essentially what happened here, there were obvious problems with the experiment, and the science was badly done. Elsevier was being kind by saying there was no evidence of fraud, because either it was fraud or incompetence that motivated these scientists to publish.

      What they should do is repeat the experiment with a better sample size.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:seems a bit strange by tlhIngan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Think of it this way, imagine someone did a study, where a single kid was vaccinated and later got autism. The authors of this study drew the conclusion that vaccines cause autism.

        Would you consider that to be poor science? Because that is essentially what happened here, there were obvious problems with the experiment, and the science was badly done. Elsevier was being kind by saying there was no evidence of fraud, because either it was fraud or incompetence that motivated these scientists to publish.

        What they should do is repeat the experiment with a better sample size.

      It's poor science, yes, but it's an intriguing data point in which further study is required.

      That's often how research is done - you work with a limited set of resources to see if the hypothesis is even correct. Like say, "vaccines cause autism". Well, you do a study, and find that yes, it does in your study, which warrants further study. Or you find that no, it doesn't, which shuts down the entire line of thinking.

      Starting with a small sample size is perfectly OK, as long as one realizes that further study is required to see if the issue discovered was related to small sample size (e.g., local effect or other thing).

      But no, you don't withdraw published papers for bad science - you release another one proving the original was bad. (Unlike the original Lancet paper, which was discovered to be fraudulent which does demand removal).

      Unless the paper was done to engage in fraud, it should stand. It doesn't matter if the authors are biased, if the sample size is too small, or the paper uses "teh" everywhere. It should be judged as it stands. And if other studies show otherwise, well, they should be published as well, and that's how knowledge is obtained - you have done more studies that discredit an earlier study because of some variable that was uncontrolled.

    7. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Really? They "essentially" had a sample size of 1 with no control group?

      Yes. The sample sizes weren't large enough to draw any conclusions. At least read the summary, please.

      How do you know their motive?

      I don't, which, as I said, means it's possible they are incompetent.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    8. Re:seems a bit strange by plover · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, it wasn't a sample size of 1 with no control group. But according to one expert, the control group was way too small to derive statistically valid results from. According to UCD researcher Martina Newell–McGloughlin, quoted in the Discovery article (from 2012), here's what they did wrong:

      • They had a control group of 10 or 20 rats in an overall population of 200 rats (Discovery claimed the study should have had a control group that was two or three times the size of the experimental rat population.)
      • The breed of rat is tumor prone (I assume this is a problem because the researchers were pre-supposing the outcome will be tumors.)
      • The rats were two years old (a very old rat for such a study, and at two years old are likely to randomly develop tumors independently.)
      • The rats were allowed to eat unlimited quantities of the food (which is known to lead to tumors even with untainted food.)
      • They found no dose-dependent correlation between the quantity of food consumed and the tumor rate (expected in toxicology studies.)
      • They performed no independent confirmation analysis to determine if the outcome they saw could have been arrived at by chance.

      So yeah, while it's not as bad as the vaccine hoaxers, it was apparently not good research.

      --
      John
    9. Re:seems a bit strange by kartaron · · Score: 2

      http://www.nature.com/news/rat-study-sparks-gm-furore-1.11471 According to this, the conclusions are unobtainable because of 1) small sample size, 2) inappropriate subjects (cancer prone rats), 3) unusually long study on inappropriate subjects (apparently the rats in question suffer higher than 50% cancer rates after a year) 4) inappropriate experiment methods (grown crops should be tested in a way to predict dosages more accurately)... From the nature article: The authors concede that Sprague-Dawley rats may not be the best model for such long-term studies... They admit the study is flawed. Instead of arguing to keep flawed conclusions they should do the study again with better subjects and methods. As it is, this seems like the flawed and misleading studies of saccharine in the 70s which took 20 years for California to withdraw. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGcQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcancerres.aacrjournals.org%2Fcontent%2F33%2F11%2F2768.full.pdf&ei=edSYUseBG4jooASo-YCwCg&usg=AFQjCNH4Bo7SBZqLpEPwJ8kmBTzQ-sxckg&sig2=sdNk2Isqa6aryZapEUdVnQ&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU&cad=rja

    10. Re:seems a bit strange by foobar+bazbot · · Score: 2

      "have been honestly reproduced"
      [citation needed]

      (There seems to be a not-uncommon misconception that reproduction of the results by other groups is part of the pre-publication "peer review" -- this is simply not the case. If you're not under that delusion, but think some group has reproduced these results, do share.)

    11. Re:seems a bit strange by Chalnoth · · Score: 5, Informative

      The study wasn't just unconvincing. It was riddled with serious flaws. The first and clearest complaint: they didn't do any statistical analysis. At all. Plus, some of the GMO and pesticide groups lived noticeably longer than the control group. The highest-dose pesticide or GMO group rarely did the worst, and sometimes did the best among the groups.

      But perhaps the most damning problem of all is that the very design of the study was such that it was guaranteed that they would be able to find something wrong with the GMO/pesticide groups (at least superficially). This is due to the virtue of having in effect 20 different experimental groups of 10 mice each (10 male, 10 female for 10 different dosages of GMO's or pesticides). And they measured dozens of different things over the course of the study. In essence, if the rats in the GMO/pesticide groups hadn't had (superficially) more tumors, they would have had something else wrong with them more often, just due to random chance.

      Whether this execrable excuse of a paper is so terrible due to abject incompetence or outright fraud, it deserves to be retracted. It should never have been published in the first place, but I'm glad the journal has decided to retract it in the end.

    12. Re:seems a bit strange by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      You had the most damning problem of all with your first paragraph. If it ain't got stats, it ain't science. The only science you can do (temporarily) without stats is theory, and that's only science if you're going to test it with experiment... using stats.

      If they'd done proper stats it would have taken into account their plethora of experimental groups and ensured that they didn't get any positive results at all.

      I didn't believe you that they hadn't done any stats so I looked up the paper. The only one I could find that fits is Food and Chemical Toxicology 50(11) pp. 4221-31. They DID do stats, but complicated unconventional ones that I find pretty suspicious (as in, a regular analysis didn't show anything so they kept trying until they found something that did). As far as I can tell, the analysis they actually did doesn't have much to do with the conclusion that GMO fed rats got more tumors.

    13. Re:seems a bit strange by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      "But no, you don't withdraw published papers for bad science - you release another one proving the original was bad. (Unlike the original Lancet paper, which was discovered to be fraudulent which does demand removal)."

      You absolutely do retract published papers for bad science. You don't retract them for incorrect conclusions, but you DO retract them for things like fraud, misrepresentation, unjustified conclusions, etc. I read the paper. It looks like these guys played some fancy analysis games to get some barely significant results regarding lots of things OTHER than tumors, then concluded that rats fed GMO corn got more tumors. That's bad science. I would never have accepted the original paper. If I were the EIC I'm not sure I would have forced it's retraction, but it's not an unreasonable move.

    14. Re:seems a bit strange by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed let's look at it from that perspective: I'm sure you'd be rather suspect of any study that has received most of its funding from Monsanto. Likewise, would you be in favor of retracting any that reached a very shaky conclusion?

      On that same token, would you be suspect of any research study that was funded by any one (or several) companies in the organic lobby? The organic industry is massively profitable, and in fact enjoys much higher profit margins than conventional farming. The organic lobby also dumps all kinds of money into trying to prove that GM crops are harmful, and this particular study was in fact one of those they funded, in addition to this one:

      http://www.marklynas.org/2013/06/gmo-pigs-study-more-junk-science/

      Seralini is himself an anti-GMO activist who is setting out from the get-go to try to kill GMO farming. This is like having a scientist who also happens to be a catholic minister publishing a study proving that Intelligent Design is true and Evolution is false. Of course I'd retract it. And besides, it isn't even just the publisher who wants it retracted, numerous other independent researchers want the same thing because Seralini himself tried to derail the peer review process:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9ralini_affair

      --
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    15. Re:seems a bit strange by s.petry · · Score: 2

      Likewise, would you be in favor of retracting any that reached a very shaky conclusion?

      Except that the conclusion was not shaky. The number and type of rats was what was complained about, not the actual experiment or the results.

      Why not advocate expanding these experiments with more and various test subjects instead of making a false claim? Seems to me like you are pro-GMO. Either that or you didn't see the obvious. Your link to a blog post instead of a reputable source has me thinking it's simply pro-GMO propaganda talking, especially when more than half of the blog post is ad hominem.

      Your minister example is way off the mark, and just a red herring. We can show that GMOs are good and/or bad, it's not just a philosophical question. There are many reports of GMOs being bad outside of the science discussed in TFA. This was the best scientific example for sure. The point is, we should be advocating independent study instead of relying on Monsanto and all of the other biotech companies simply claiming "it's safe".

      I'm not claiming there is not some bad science for anti-GMO, but that does not take away the same bad science we are given which is pro-GMO. Science is supposed to be unbiased an fact driven. Not ad hominem, red herring, poppycock.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    16. Re:seems a bit strange by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One cannot rule out the lesser-sized, but very real industry of trumping up faux problems for the purpose of becoming talking heads.

      When you say "lesser-sized" you don't really give any indication of the scale of difference.

      The agribusiness industry spends more on public relations than the entire independent research community spends overall. One cannot rule out a very large bias in favor of suppressing anything that might endanger profits. Almost all independent researchers are part of non-profits.

      but very real industry of trumping up faux problems for the purpose of becoming talking heads.

      I find no mention of this "very real" industry you speak of on any of the world's stock exchanges. Are you sure you're not just making it up? I assume you have a list of the "faux problems", and I also assume that it reflects your political opinion more than it does any real "industry".

      How much you think a "talking head" from the scientific community makes, anyway? I'll bet there are executive secretaries at Monsanto that are making 5 times what the highest-paid "talking head" of the type you describe could possibly make.

      Do you think there's more money to be had making up science for Monsanto or for nongmoproject.org?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:seems a bit strange by Jmc23 · · Score: 2
      Never read any medical experiments have you? Nor the experiment in question right?

      Just admit it, you're just assuming it's on shaky ground because that's what you read and you have no clue about how 'real' research is done.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
  2. Re:maize?? by khallow · · Score: 5, Informative

    who uses the term maize any longer??

    Scientific researchers for starters. And anyone who speaks Spanish.

  3. Recent History by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  4. Re:maize?? by FilmedInNoir · · Score: 5, Informative

    really?? I mean sure it is proper but who uses the term maize any longer?? (for those who are not up to date, maize is the native american term for corn)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize
    TL;DR Maize is preferred in formal, scientific, and international usage because it refers specifically to this one grain, unlike corn, which has a complex variety of meanings that vary by context and geographic region.

    --
    Sig. Sig. Sputnik
  5. Re:maize?? by JustOK · · Score: 2

    Wasn't Willie Maize the Catcher in the Rye? Or am I thinking about Yogi Berra?

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  6. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's very easy to prove that something is unsafe; you simply show meaningful and reproducible examples of harm caused

    You can't prove that something is safe because you can't say beyond a doubt that something will never ever cause harm in the future. What you *can* do is show multiple studies that were looking for harm and could not meaningfully find any.

    What we know about GMOs is that there are no known examples of harm caused by them that can be reproduced by scientific peers.

  7. The US isn't always wrong. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Corn is a major export crop of the United States.

    Europe government wants to promote food that is grown within the Union. It really makes sense that a European scientist would feel pressured to find evidence against a primary US import.
    As the US agriculture system is very efficient at making low cost food.

    I know it is trendy to be Anti-American as it must be some conspiracy from big US companies to hide the truth, like with Big Tobacco.
    But what if GM Food is actually perfectly safe like the science says it is.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by AlecC · · Score: 2

      In this case, I really don't think it is anti-American but anti-GM. There is a very widespread fear of GM. Which, as it happens, I disagree with. But, right or wrong, people are afraid of GM and shouting at their politicians about it.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    2. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fortunately, in this case, it's ok to be annoyed by both sides: Elsevier and the guys who did the study. Both are bad.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 2

      I have nothing against the US selling GM food in Europe, as long as every customer can decide for himself, but this is in reality not the case. The problem is that in European countries the labelling requirements for GM food are generally inadequate and do not cover all cases, e.g. there is no labelling for ingredients below a certain percentage, some pre-processed ingredients or meat from animals fed with GM plants. In fact, most of the labelling is so fine-print that it cannot even be read through a looking glass - illegaly so, but who would go from the supermarket all the way to court only to get slightly larger letters.

      I personally do not wish to buy any GM food, not even traces of it, and also do not wish to buy meat produced from animals fed with GM plants, for reasons that have nothing to do with health concerns. I simply do not wish to directly or indirectly support companies like Monsanto who patent genes, blackmail and sue farmers who do not want to buy their shit, and generally are 0 trustworthy. In a nutshell, if there was a mandatory big red warning label "GM" on each and every product during which production GM plants played any role whatsoever, nobody would complain about the US trying to sell their "low cost food".

      As for the scientists, their point that one of the editors worked for Monsanto deserves some consideration, doesn't it?

    4. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Fears about GM being somehow more unhealthy or poisonous than regular food are pretty irrational.
      However, there are other fears that are more sensible, that have gotten conflated with the health fears, and for some people it's now impossible to separate them:

      - Fear that untested modified genes will escape into the environment and mess up the local ecosystem
      - Fear that GM crops (roundup-ready!) will increase the use of insecticides, which is a whole other barrel of worms
      - Fear that GM foods will give well-connected, litigious and unscrupulous companies *cough*Monsanto*cough* unprecedented and monopolistic control over the world's food supply.

    5. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 2

      When you attempt to bake insecticides into a plant destined for human and animal consumption, the question is pretty damned valid.

      Only to someone whose entire knowledge of the subject is "insecticide", rather than BT-produced Cry proteins, which we know an awful lot about, such as how insects react to them (explodes their alkaline guts, which is why they're used) and how humans react to them (which is to say, not at all, since the proteins are digested in mammalian acidic guts that both renders them inactive and lacks the appropriate receptors for them to bind to, causing the insect explosion).

      Seriously, there are people who actually know this stuff. No one is just making this shit up willy-nilly.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

  8. Re:maize?? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Informative

    Come to Europe. We grow corn too - but our corn is a different plant entirely.

    When European settlers came to the new world, they found a lot of new species they had no names for. So they named them after something familiar from back home. 'Corn' was named because it was the staple crop, just like the 'corn' back home - otherwise known as wheat, or the stuff cornflakes and bread are made from. This is also why you have a robin that isn't even in the same family as the european robin: It has a similar red breast, so it was called a robin.

  9. Read the definition of corn... by clonan · · Score: 4, Informative

    Gan: Corn is defined as a small hard grain/seed

    Wheat is corn
    Rice is corn
    Rye is Corn
    Millet is Corn

    Maize is also corn

    The term Corn used in supermarkets is actually slang....

    If you are going to be a vocab critic then at least get the vocab right!

  10. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by khallow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Funny how Monsanto isn't required to definitively prove their crap is safe, but everyone else is required to definitely prove that it isn't.

    It's not that way for either party and shouldn't be ("definitively prove" is a ludicrously high threshold). This was apparently half-assed research which didn't "prove" anything.

  11. Re:maize?? by AlecC · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Maize is the term used in the UK, where corn means, usually, wheat - sometimes barley.

    Many dictionaries say that "corn" means the local most common grain crop, and therefore each grain type needs another name for use where it is not the most common.

    --
    Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  12. Re:maize?? by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

    Billy Maize is the Pitcher in the Rye.

    ...Slashdot needs a comment filter for bad pun density.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  13. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by khallow · · Score: 2

    And, more importantly, having worked at Monsanto should automatically exclude you from being considered from holding an editorial position like this. You mostly have to assume these guys are going to be paid shills who have already made up their mind that it's safe, and he's basically just demonstrated that Food and Chemical Toxicology isn't interested in objective science.

    Ignoring that working for Monsanto is one avenue to getting the sort of experience in the field that can make one a good editor, everyone has some sort of conflict of interest. I guess we'll just have to do without editors, huh?

  14. Re:maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Corn outside North America, Australia, and New Zealand means any cereal crop" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize)

    That's quite a good reason for being specific.

    Also Maiz is the Taino (native american) name for the plant, Maize is a modern derivative of that and the technically correct name.

  15. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Like it or not, even big companies are innocent until proven guilty. Pending FDA approval, anyway.

    In this case it looks like the researchers were out for blood and let their dislike for Monsanto get in the way of doing the science properly—not only did they use cancer-prone rats like it says in the summary, but they didn't do enough replicates to determine if the results were actually statistically significant: the control group definitely got fewer tumours, but given the unreliability of the rat breed's tumour-forming rate it's hard to say that it wasn't just a coincidence. (And using a cancer-prone rat isn't exactly realistic to begin with; tumours grow faster whenever they get cheap and easy nutrients.)

    The paper was under close scrutiny immediately when it was published, and not just from Elsevier or Monsanto.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  16. Re:maize?? by gregor-e · · Score: 4, Informative

    Albanian - misër
    Cebuano - mais
    Danish - majs
    Dutch - maïs
    Esperanto - maizo
    Estonian - mais
    Filipino - mais
    Finnish - maissi
    French - maïs
    German - Mais
    Haitian Creole - mayi
    Italian - mais
    Norwegian - mais
    Spanish - maíz
    Swedish - majs
    Turkish - misir

  17. Re:maize?? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well that explains a lot of things - Healthcare, Democrat, Football.

    No wonder we're so confused. It's all your fault.

    USA! USA! USA!

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  18. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by stenvar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Funny how Monsanto isn't required to definitively prove their crap is safe, but everyone else is required to definitely prove that it isn't.

    That's because it is reasonable to assume that it is safe based on what we know about biology. Furthermore, there are no real-world indications that it is not. At this point, if you want to claim it's unsafe, you better have some strong data to back it up.

    he's basically just demonstrated that Food and Chemical Toxicology isn't interested in objective science.

    According to objective science, every widely used organism produced by genetic manipulation is safe to consume.

  19. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Kohath · · Score: 2

    Yeah! It's time to get this hunt started. We need to start asking the most important scientific question of all:

    Does Monsanto weigh the same as a duck?

  20. Re:maize?? by Joce640k · · Score: 2

    really?? I mean sure it is proper but who uses the term maize any longer??

    Oh dear, you just opened a can of whoop-ass on yourself....

    --
    No sig today...
  21. hard to prove a negative by Chirs · · Score: 2

    It's *really hard* to prove that something is safe, you pretty much need to test every possible interaction.

    It's relatively simple to prove that something is not safe--you just need to find one thing demonstrating lack of safety and then you're done.

    That said, I think there should be some level of due diligence required before bringing a GM food to market. That said, the current alternative to GMOs is irradiating DNA to force it to mutate, which causes way more changes in unrelated areas and offers all the dangers of GMOs, but currently has basically no labelling requirements.

  22. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Kohath · · Score: 5, Funny

    GMOs produce toxins. Those toxins have already been shown to stay in the human body almost indefinitely, compromising the human immune system. And, in perfect correlation to the spread of GMOs, all sorts of illnesses are growing and a rapid rate.

    They turned me into a newt!

    This is why they refuse to do any long-term studies.

    I got better.

  23. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    So basically we've got an evidentiary double-standard where Monsanto et al get to say "perfectly safe until proven otherwise"

    I don't want to call you ignorant, but you should actually look at the tests that are done with GMO crops before they are allowed to be eaten, even by the researchers who made them, and then before they are allowed to be sold. Monsanto actually is required to prove they are safe (within a margin of error, which is all you can do in science). You should look up on Wikipedia and understand the tests that are done before posting again.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  24. Re:Monsanto Fanboys? by Kohath · · Score: 2

    I'm more of a no witch hunts fanboy.

  25. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You say "there are no known examples of harm" --- but that's because nearly no one has looked

    Hardly no one looks for examples of harm from non-GMO corn either. All corn, really all agricultural products, are heavily genetically engineered, the difference is some is engineered with selective breeding and hybridization, and the other by resequencing. The only reason we pay attention to the latter is there's a contingent of motivated believers who think that "natural" food contains Maggi Health Fairies, and that Big Science and Corporations kill the fairies by Playing God(!!1!@1!). it's really hard to get funding to try studying anything against Big Ag's corporate profit interests

    "It's impossible to disprove Darwinism, because the Darwin lobby controls all granting in the life sciences!" "It's impossible to disprove general relativity, because the government suppresses that truth!"

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
  26. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Uh, no, the paper was about GMO corn causing tumors in rats - are you high on weed or something?

    Anyway, there is a broad scientific consensus about the safety of GMOs. There are over 600 studies - you can start here: http://www.biofortified.org/genera/studies-for-genera/. Do you want to claim that Monsanto has the entire scientific community locked up in their sphere of influence? That's about as sensible as claiming that human-caused global warming proponents in academia are all part of some liberal conspiracy to implement communism.

    Re: "GMOs produce toxins" the only toxins that are being produced are GMOs that have been modified to produce the Bt toxin which is COMPLETELY harmless to humans. The mechanism of action of the Bt pesticide only affects insects - the digestive system of the human is completely unaffected by it. Also, you may not be aware, but Bt is available as a spray and is approved for use even on USDA Organic crops. So even if you're eating organic food, there is a very good chance you're consuming the Bt pesticide.

    If you think Bt is unsafe to humans then PROVE IT. Put up or shut up.

  27. Wrong issues with GMOs by presidenteloco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Direct health effects of GMO foods are IMHO only the third most important potential concern with GMOs.

    The first concern is that whatever you have engineered, it is self-reproducing and could potentially take over a niche in a whole ecosystem, displacing other species or naturually adapted varieties, and you in general could not stop this if it happened. So eco-systems then become fully the responsibility of human biology tweakers.
    This seems generally unwise. The consequences of such ecosystem shifts is too complex to be predicted.

    A second concern is that each genetic engineering modification needs to be fully assessed separately from all others, due to the complexity of the systems into which they are being inserted. Or at least, very narrow equivalence classes of modifications need each to be individually, and in combination, re-tested for long term effects, viability, viability and effects of likely mutations of the tweak etc, each time they are tweaked.
    The cost of such repeated and long term safety testing is well beyond the capability of the companies producing the products, so we can be sure that such rigorous, long term, and repeated (when product is varied) testing is not being done.
    Instead, smaller numbers of specific tests on a subset of engineered varieties are generalized in alleged applicability and conclusion, to save money.

    So there is still a lot of know unknown and unknown unknown out there, and it is the kind of product that in general, self-reproduces and also expands in range.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  28. Re: maize?? by compro01 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But then, this is the man who worked tirelessly to reintroduce circumcision to the US as a preemptive way discourage masturbation, so screw him.

    Corn flakes were a variation on that theme. Kellogg was a follower of the ideas of Sylvester Graham (who also invented the "masturbation causes blindness" nuttery). He believed that spicy or sweet foods led to "passions" and "impure thoughts".

    --
    upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  29. Re:maize?? by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

    BILLY MAIZE HERE!

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  30. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 2

    Recall, in this particular case, the specific genetic modification in question: glyphosate resistance, allowing massive quantities of glyphosate herbicide to be dumped on everything. This isn't engineering to make bigger, sweeter kernels or boost crop density. Glyphosate kills the heck out of weeds because it's highly biologically active, designed to interfere with metabolic processes --- the kind of thing you might have big a-priori safety concerns about, above and beyond genetic modification to speed along selective breeding processes for traits not directly related to dumping massive amounts of toxins onto food products. So, yes, humans have been doing "genetic engineering" for a long time, but less so for capabilities to saturate fields with weird shit that kills all the other plants.

  31. Rats! by westlake · · Score: 3, Informative

    When does ambition or the will to believe begin to look more like fraud?

    The biggest criticism from both reviews is that Seralini and his team used only ten rats of each sex in their treatment groups. That is a similar number of rats per group to that used in most previous toxicity tests of GM foods, including Missouri-based Monsanto's own tests of NK603 maize. Such regulatory tests monitor rats for 90 days, and guidelines from the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) state that ten rats of each sex per group over that time span is sufficient because the rats are relatively young. But Seralini's study was over two years --- almost a rat's lifespan --- and for tests of this duration, the OECD recommends at least 20 rats of each sex per group for chemical-toxicity studies, and at least 50 for carcinogenicity studies.

    Moreover, the study used Sprague-Dawley rats, which both reviews note are prone to developing spontaneous tumors. Data provided to Nature by Harlan Laboratories, which supplied the rats in the study, show that only one-third of males, and less than one-half of females, live to 104 weeks. By comparison, its Han Wistar rats have greater than 70% survival at 104 weeks, and fewer tumors. OECD guidelines state that for two-year experiments, rats should have a survival rate of at least 50% at 104 weeks. If they do not, each treatment group should include even more animals --- 65 or more of each sex.

    ''There is a high probability that the findings in relation to the tumor incidence are due to chance, given the low number of animals and the spontaneous occurrence of tumors in Sprague-Dawley rats,'' concludes the EFSA report. In response to the EFSA's assessment, the European Federation of Biotechnology --- an umbrella body in Barcelona, Spain, that represents biotech researchers, institutes and companies across Europe --- called for the study to be retracted, describing its publication as a ''dangerous case of failure of the peer-review system.."

    Yet Seralini has promoted the cancer results as the study's major finding, through a tightly orchestrated media offensive that began last month and included the release of a book and a film about the work. Only a select group of journalists (not including Nature) was given access to the embargoed paper, and each writer was required to sign a highly unusual confidentiality agreement, seen by Nature, which prevented them from discussing the paper with other scientists before the embargo expired.

    Hyped GM maize study faces growing scrutiny [Oct 2012]

  32. Re:maize?? by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Informative

    Thank you for that, now i feel foolish for posting heh

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  33. Actually reading the paper... by queazocotal · · Score: 2

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637

    The study involved 200 rats, half female, split into 10 groups.
    As I understand it, the greatest 'statistical significance' comes from the female rats.

    Taking one part, and closely analysing it.
    'Up to 14 months, no animals in the control groups showed any signs of tumors whilst 10–30% of treated females per group developed tumors, with the exception of one group (33% GMO + R). By the beginning of the 24th month, 50–80% of female animals had developed tumors in all treated groups, with up to 3 tumors per animal, whereas only 30% of controls were affected.'

    Starting with the first statement. 'up to 14 months, 1-3 rats in some of the groups developed tumors, whereas no rats in the control group or the group fed GMO + roundup did' So, of 7 groups, 2 groups were cancer free.

    Going onto the next part.
    3 rats got cancer in the control group.
    5-8 in the other 6 groups.
    But, half of those 6 groups were also fed roundup.

    So, a total of between 9 and 15 extra rats got cancer, apparantly, if you multiply up the control group.

    But - the whole basis of this paper now rests on two rats.
    If in the control group at the 24th month, 5 rats would normally have gotten cancer, and 2 happened to get lucky, the paper largely becomes non-statistically significant.

    I am not a statistician.

    If normally, half of rats get cancer at 24 months, then you would expect 5 rats, not 3 in the control group to have it.
    How likely is it that only three rats would die?
    Only if this chance is under 5% does the rest of the paper have any weight whatsoever.

  34. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the kind of thing you might have big a-priori safety concerns about, above and beyond genetic modification to speed along selective breeding processes for traits not directly related to dumping massive amounts of toxins onto food products. So, yes, humans have been doing "genetic engineering" for a long time, but less so for capabilities to saturate fields with weird shit that kills all the other plants.

    Interestingly, they've been dumping actual shit on plants for a long time before that, which is probably more dangerous than the glyphosate that you are (for some unknown reason) afraid of.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  35. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

    On what grounds do you base that?

    Go eat it. See what e coli does to you. These are the kind of irrationalities ant-GMO fanatics get into (I'm not saying you are a fanatic, just that fanatics get caught in these irrationalities).

    Using cow manure has killed people in the past, and it will continue to kill people in the future if it is used. When glyphosate is used on food, it is safe by the time it gets to the store.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  36. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by dszd0g · · Score: 2

    What we know about GMOs is that there are no known examples of harm caused by them that can be reproduced by scientific peers.

    You mean like Monsanto's Newleaf Potatoes?

    There was first the Dr. Arpad Pusztai study that showed it caused "damage to the intestines and immune systems of rats fed the genetically modified potatoes."
    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rp%C3%A1d_Pusztai

    Industry and the Royal Society of Medicine declared Dr. Arpad's study flawed and his study was considered discredited.

    Then it turns out the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences had conducted a similar study that found similar results. Except this study had been suppressed by Monsanto for 8 years.

    Major US food companies, like McDonald's and Frito-Lay, used Newleaf Potatoes for a few years before consumers complained about GMO "frankenfries."

    It would be one thing if GMOs were being developed to taste better, grow larger, etc. However, most GMOs that are being developed either seem to be for either producing their own pesticides or to allow more pesticides to be used on them. It's not complex logic that putting new and more poisons on our food could cause us harm. Especially, when so many studies are coming out linking various diseases to pesticide use. Slashdot just recently an article linking Parkinson's to pesticide (http://slashdot.org/story/13/11/26/1956243/how-heroin-addicts-helped-scientists-link-pesticides-and-parkinsons). Pesticides have been linked to being a cause of Autism (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404662/) and other diseases.

    --
    This message is encrypted with Quad ROT-13 to protect the author's copyright under the DMCA.
  37. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    And, they generally use sample sizes similar to the numbers used in this study under question --- the 200 rats studied was a moderately "ordinary" number by industry standards.

    I don't know where you are getting your numbers. Nature reports 20 total rats were used. The Nature article illustrates a number of other problems with the study, please at least become aware of them before further commenting.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  38. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wouldn't go so far as to assume that the FDA is completely overrun. A little under 50% of drugs fail FDA approval on their first application. FDA rejection is costly, and companies have been increasingly been aggressive about doing their own testing first in order to make sure that they don't languish forever in a nightmarish backlog like the one that the USPTO suffers from. I used to know someone who had exactly the sort of near-executive-level pharmaceutical responsibility; as far as I could tell, a lot of the collaboration between FDA people and companies is actually about trying to expedite testing and safety.

    On top of that, you have competitive pressures. Nothing is better for a company if they can discover that their competitors have cheated regulations or produced an unsafe product; the battlefield is aggressive and collaborations usually end in backstabbing. If you can produce evidence that another company lied to the FDA or that their products pose a health risk, it can potentially destroy that company. This is one case where a competitive market can be a positive force if the rules are set up right.

    That all being said, the FDA does have corruption issues. The Wikipedia article on on regulatory capture lists some much more perverse cases, though, like how the agency responsible for cleaning up after oil spills was renamed and then restructured into oblivion in the days following the Deepwater Horizon spill.

    --
    Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  39. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 2

    Note, the "Nature report" isn't itself one of Nature's peer-reviewed articles --- it's a news commentary piece, passing along the views of lobbyists and industry-captured governmental bodies (also staffed with former Monsanto officials). The scientists responsible for peer reviewing the article, when it was initially published, and then again under renewed pressure from industry lobbying groups, found nothing scientifically wrong with the study. Statistically weak results do not invalidate science --- they simply require appropriate interpretation (e.g. that this study doesn't definitively prove the GMO products cause large cancer rates, but does lend support to such effects existing), and provide guidance for where to take a deeper look.

    Do I think Nature is entirely controlled by Monsanto? Not the parts responsible for selecting, peer reviewing, and publishing scientific research. But, could Monsanto's gigantic PR/lobbying effort (which is way better funded than industry-independent scientific researchers) pressure an editorial fluff hit piece outside regular scientific channels? Pretty sure they could, and just did.

  40. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Cyberax · · Score: 2

    Glyphosate itself is harmless, the problem is in surfactants - they are much more dangerous. It's like drinking concentrated detergent (which is also lethal at about 200ml dose).

  41. And, Seralini's response... by Uncle_Meataxe · · Score: 2

    Here's the Seralini team response to FCT. Basically, Seralini is challenging them to also retract the Monsanto study (e.g., Hammond et al. 2004):

    http://gmoseralini.org/professor-seralini-replies-to-fct-journal-over-study-retraction/

    Professor Seralini replies to FCT journal over study retraction

    Professor Gilles-Eric Séralini and his team have responded to the letter from A. Wallace Hayes, editor of Food and Chemical Toxicology (FCT), telling Prof Séralini that he intended to retract his study on NK603 maize and Roundup.

    Here’s the retraction notice from Elsevier, the publisher of FCT: http://prn.to/1euTk2W
    Response by Prof GE Seralini and colleagues to A. Wallace Hayes, editor of Food and Chemical Toxicology
    28 Nov 2013

    We, authors of the paper published in FCT more than one year ago on the effects of Roundup and a Roundup-tolerant GMO (Séralini et al., 2012), and having answered to critics in the same journal (Séralini et al., 2013), do not accept as scientifically sound the debate on the fact that these papers are inconclusive because of the rat strain or the number of rats used. We maintain our conclusions. We already published some answers to the same critics in your Journal, which have not been answered (Séralini et al., 2013).

    Rat strain

    The same strain is used by the US national toxicology program to study the carcinogenicity and the chronic toxicity of chemicals (King-Herbert et al., 2010). Sprague Dawley rats are used routinely in such studies for toxicological and tumour-inducing effects, including those 90-day studies by Monsanto as basis for the approval of NK603 maize and other GM crops (Sprague Dawley rats did not came from Harlan but from Charles-River) (Hammond et al., 2004; Hammond et al., 2006a; Hammond et al., 2006b).

    A brief, quick and still preliminary literature search of peer-reviewed journals revealed that Sprague Dawley rats were used in 36-month studies by (Voss et al., 2005) or in 24-month studies by (Hack et al., 1995), (Minardi et al., 2002), (Klimisch et al., 1997), (Gamez et al., 2007).Some of these studies have been published in Food and Chemical Toxicology.

    Number of rats, OECD guidelines

    OECD guidelines (408 for 90 day study, 452 chronic toxicity and 453 combined carcinogenicity/chronic toxicity study) always asked for 20 animals per group (both in 1981 and 2009 guidelines) although the measurement of biochemical parameters can be performed on 10 rats, as indicated. We did not perform a carcinogenesis study, which would not have been adopted at first, but a long-term chronic full study, 10 rats are sufficient for that at a biochemical level according to norms and we have measured such a number of parameters! The disturbance of sexual hormones or other parameters are sufficient in themselves in our case to interpret a serious effect after one year. The OPLS-DA statistical method we published is one of the best adapted. For tumours and deaths, the chronology and number of tumours per animal have to be taken into account. Any sign should be regarded as important for a real risk study. Monsanto itself measured only 10 rats of the same strain per group on 20 to conclude that the same GM maize was safe after 3 months (Hammond et al., 2004).

    The statistical analysis should not be done with historical data first, the comparison is falsified, thus 50 rats per group is useless

    The use of historical data falsifies health risk assessments because the diet is contaminated by dibenzo-p-dioxins and dibenzofurans (Schecter et al., 1996), mercury (Weiss et al., 2005), cadmium and chromium among other heavy metals in a range of doses that altered mouse liver and lung gene expression and confounds genomic analyses (Kozul et al., 2008). They also contained pesticides or plasticizers released by cages or from water sources (Howdeshell et al., 2003). Historical