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RF Safe-Stop Shuts Down Car Engines With Radio Pulse
An anonymous reader writes with news of a device built by a company in the U.K. which uses pulses of electromagnetic energy to disrupt the electronic systems of modern cars, causing them to shut down and cut the engine. Here's a description of how it works:
"At one end of a disused runway, E2V assembled a varied collection of second-hand cars and motorbikes in order to test the prototype against a range of vehicles. In demonstrations seen by the BBC a car drove towards the device at about 15mph (24km/h). As the vehicle entered the range of the RF Safe-stop, its dashboard warning lights and dials behaved erratically, the engine stopped and the car rolled gently to a halt. Digital audio and video recording devices in the vehicle were also affected.''It's a small radar transmitter,' said Andy Wood, product manager for the machine. 'The RF [radio frequency] is pulsed from the unit just as it would be in radar, it couples into the wiring in the car and that disrupts and confuses the electronics in the car causing the engine to stall.'"
those high-powered NSA satellites can do this from orbit. No, this is NOT meant to be a troll post. I wonder if a country could actually orbit a satellite with enough power and a spot beam to stop cars in an entire city... in the name of anti-terrorism, of course.
Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
So there are some potentially cool applications of this - stopping a criminal in a car chase with police, for example - but it has massive potential for crime as well. Stopping cars at night, in secluded areas, to steal them and/or assault the passengers? Or causing mayhem by stopping cars on freeways, not all of which will slow at the same speed, leading to massive pile-ups.
William George
Pacemakers and implanted defibrilators monitor the function of the heart by detecting voltage gradients of milivolts. This weapon can reliably knock out electronics in a car - electronics designed to operate in a very harsh EMI environment due to the presence of the nearby igntion system and contained within the metal body of the car. An enclosure that provides a bit more protection than 5mm of glass and 70cm of flesh.
So when they say this device poses no risk to those with a pacemaker, consider me a bit skeptical of that claim.
In demonstrations seen by the BBC a car drove towards the device at about 15mph (24km/h). As the vehicle entered the range of the RF Safe-stop, its dashboard warning lights and dials behaved erratically, the engine stopped and the car rolled gently to a halt.
Let's try this demonstration again in a situation where you would actually need such a device, i.e. in a high-speed pursuit. A 15 mph demonstration means nothing for the safety of the product.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
First thought: When shielding is criminal, only criminals will have shielding.
Second thought: This would be a really cool way to deactivate police cars that might be chasing you.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Digital audio and video recording devices in the vehicle were also affected.
So, they can shut off your camera before they beat you half to death?
Don't trust any concentration of power.
That it successfully disabled a few old dilapidated junk is no big deal. Those vehicles are just a skip, hop and a jump from junkyard and would fail more easily. A modern car well insulated against electromagnetic interference is likely to protect some systems and lose some other systems partially. This is just dangerous.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
There will be a lot of blowback from this device:
1: As mentioned above, if it fries pacemakers, insulin pumps, or heart plugs, how will wrongful death lawsuits be handled?
2: If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits.
3: If used on a car, most cars are drive-by-wire. This means that brakes and steering will be made inoperable in some cars, causing an instant wreck... and subsequent lawsuits. Other cars will still have mechanical brakes and steering, but most people are used to power-assisted brakes and steering... and having their vehicle handle way differently can also cause a wreck... and lawsuit.
4: What happens if another car is hit? Radio waves can be directed in unexpected places. Yet another wreck possiblity and lawsuit.
5: Of course, the bad guys will have this technology sooner or later. Now, watch stretches of I-10 become nice kill zones for thieves who are desiring either pickup trucks for Mexican drug runs, or just to pop caps in people once their car is stopped to get soldier status in their gang.
Bad idea all around... well all but for the attorneys who will make a mint from this.
Pacemakers are typically hardened against this sort of thing. Link
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
Why is it that people name their product the very opposite of what it is? Is it supposed to serve as some sort of rebuttal? Safe for who? The guy going 60mph? Anyone around him when he loses power steering and brakes?
It's clearly designed to bring police chases to a much more rapid end, so instead of chasing a guy at breakneck speed for miles and miles, with him maybe ending up wrapped around a tree, or crashing head on into a granny coming the other way, or a failed containment attempt resulting in him spinning out and crashing horrifically, instead the police just EMP the car and end the chase quickly.
No one said it had to be safe for the driver of the car. I assume it's called "safe stop" because the alternative is a risky high speed chase.
Radar pulses, eh? Cooked internal organs, that's what could go wrong.
I deny that I have not avoided attaining the opposite of that which I do not want.
How can I shield my car against this? I'm willing to add up to 20lbs to do it.
Sell it and buy an antique from the pre-electronics era. Carburetor and points ignition. Although I assume most of them will be a wee bit more than a 20lb increase over a modern car...
probably made from old microwave ovens.
could be fun!
how many times have we heard/read about police chases which result in massive collateral damage and people getting killed?
Not all that many?
Everything is better with chainsaws.
I will Faraday my compartment ASAP.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
This thing is supposed to have a short range. Maybe on takeoff or final you'd be able to screw them.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Option 2 stop chasing them? The FBI's research pretty much shows that they are simply dangerous http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/march-2010/evidence-based-decisions-on-police-pursuits they show that most chases are for minor offences and that the suspects will quickly return to safe driving after the chase is stopped. Pretty much car chases are cops getting an adrenaline rush at the expense of the public.
No sir I dont like it.
... "target" being defined as "everything downrange" . . .
But then you have a 2 to 5 ton vehicle with no ability to control it.
That kinetic energy doesn't just disappear and at the kind of speeds that would occasion the use of such a device, that car is probably going to slam into something: a house, bus full of orphans, kitten factory, etc. The summary says it drove toward the device at 15mph. I'd like to see what happens at 50mph, 100mph or on something like a fully loaded truck.
Additionally, and perhaps more horrifying, is that "Digital audio and video recording devices in the vehicle were also affected". As police, roll into a 'riot' with one of these going and you don't have to worry about the people involved filming you when you are standing next to someone who 'kept falling down of their own accord, honest, pinky swear'
Knock out those annoying squad cars on your tail.
1. Lawsuits will be handled by the lawyers, but they'll be pretty bored, because the EMTs will handle the people having heart attacks at a traffic stop.
2. Or the rider could just slow down to a stop like any other vehicle.
3. [citation needed]. The first drive-by-wire cars are just coming out now, and they still have mechanical fallbacks.
4. Lawyers again, but since this is a device with push-button control (rather than a slow manual deployment like spike strips), the officer in charge can abort the operation if a situation looks dangerous.
5. Just like they do now with tacks, spikes, and opportunities every time someone runs out of gas.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Maybe all you need is a ground strap and an aluminized mylar bag.
5: Of course, the bad guys will have this technology sooner or later. Now, watch stretches of I-10 become nice kill zones for thieves who are desiring either pickup trucks for Mexican drug runs, or just to pop caps in people once their car is stopped to get soldier status in their gang.
I was thinking this too. Also, I shudder at the thought of some, say, 14 year old kids getting their hands on a cheap device that can do this and thinking it's "fun" to stop random cars while hiding behind a bush with no thought given to the consequences. I've read about kids throwing heavy and dangerous objects from heights onto unsuspecting people/cars below them. I'm sure this will appeal to the same people.
Any ideas how to best do this?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Police officers using lawful force in the course of their duties are generally immune from lawsuits, as are the departments that hire them. It's not like stop sticks, tazers, batons, teargas, flashbangs or firearms are inherently safe but we allow law enforcement to use them against suspected criminals on a daily basis.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
So the RF interference takes out the CAN bus, which runs communications between the various control units in the vehicle. This is a common problem in electrical vehicles, where the high power/current lines must be routed separately from the CAN bus wires.
There are two problems with this solution
1. Older vehicles are unaffected
Old cars, especially those with carburetors, are unaffected since they don't have any data buses that can pickup the interference.
2. The CAN bus carries safety critical information.
Corrupted data packets, such as by-wire throttle position information, can cause brake failures and/or uncontrolled acceleration when the ECU/TCU bombs out due to noise on the bus. Airbags may also deploy, although that is a bit more far-fetched.
A much simpler approach would be to sniff their smartphones, so you could send the driver a text that says "STOP UR CAR, LOL"
In my experience, the average driver will obey their smartphone screen more readily than local traffic laws.
Are fly by wire brakes even legal? It was my understanding that there must always be a mechanical linkage between the brake pedal and the brakes, just to give you a hail mary if your brake booter craps out.
I read the internet for the articles.
It's my fucking car.
It sure as hell is! So, just drive it on your own fucking road, right?
Yeah.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
I think he may have been reappropriating the term "drive by wire". It would not be in reference to the ford "drive by wire" system (electronic control system that appears the same as a traditional mechanical column). More likely meaning that power steering and power breaking require the engine chip to be functioning to operate.
And he is correct that those subsystems cut out with the engine. My vehicle recently had a vacuum leak. The engine stalled out as I was breaking. No power steering, no power breaking. It was not a good situation. The car behind me very nearly plowed into me when the light flipped to green.
According to this BI article: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-high-tech-gps-tracker-that-is-a-game-changer-for-police-2013-11
"High-speed pursuits cause nearly 400 deaths a year and cost the government more than a billion dollars a year in damages, lawsuits, and medical bills."
"... Fischbach says that in most pursuits a minimum of $3,000 in property damage occurs."
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
First step, go out and buy anything with carbs and points.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Power brakes work on engine vacuum and should give a couple of normal pumps without any difference after the engine stops and then they will work un-powered and just require more effort.
Turn off your car and pump the brakes and you can see how this works.
No matter where you go, there you are.
won't work if you drive a plastic car ['Vette, Saturn] but with metal bodywork your average care is already half way to being a Faraday cage. A concealed job of finishing that cage would be difficult but most openings just need a grounded hardware cloth covering of proper mesh [must study TFA to see what frequency is used].
Active jamming to cancel out the incoming waves is not likely due to the high frequency they probably use.
BTW, do they test this thing on Dick Cheney to see if it shuts down pacemakers?
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
The issue is that many people who run from the police when chased for a minor traffic violation are not running to avoid the the ticket. They are usually running because they are wanted on another, much more serious, charge. By not chasing we would let serious criminals get away. For example ,serial murderer Ted Bundy who killed over 22 women, and the Atlanta child killer, Wayne Williams, who killed 28, were apprehended because of traffic stops.
As another poster pointed out, a publicized no chase policy will just encourage people to run. It does not take long for an accident to happen. For example, a famous computer programmer was struck killed by a fleeing motorist within 2km of the start of the chase.
I drive an old Mercedes, with mechanical fuel injection and well...mechanical everything.
The active safety is good, (I've upgraded the brakes and suspension) and Merc were among the first to design-in crumple zones, so passive not too bad.
OK, I've no airbags...
Not being a nutty survivalist, just like having a car where I can fix everything myself, and no fucker with an EMP device, or anything else for that matter, is going to stop me.
Cost over the years (including fuel?), less than replacing it regularly with something "better".
He doesn't need to.
A car with power steering has MUCH heavier steering when the power steering's failed versus an equivalent model that never had power steering fitted in the first place. To the point where even steering a moving vehicle is damn hard work.
"2: If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits."
MC mechanic of many years here.
Not especially likely. MCs aren't drive-by-wire other than EFI and engine shutdown takes out no control systems. Manual steering and brake make for simple stopping when your engine quits.
"3: If used on a car, most cars are drive-by-wire."
No, they are not. Most have power-assisted but mechanically linked steering and brakes. If you are trying to stop someone in a high-speed chase shutting them down is far safer than chasing them until they crash.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
This kind of thing would be ripe for abuse, but how many times have we heard/read about police chases which result in massive collateral damage and people getting killed?
I'm torn, but this seems like a really good thing for police to have. Especially if it can be directed so that it only affects the target.
People said the same thing about Tasers.
Take the magnetron out of an old microwave and attach it to the rear bumper with a switch. In case the police are chasing me I turn it on to disable their car before they can pull in from of me to disable mine.
You see, being the bad guy, I'm going to be in the pole position in this particular car race.
---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
better yet an old diesel powered vehicle.
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
You'd have to faraday your entire car for this to work. Your entire wiring loom is one big antenna for this sort of signal. At the wavelength of radar, you'd be having a hard time keeping it all out too. Even tiny gaps to let the streering and drive shafts through, signal would probably creep in.
Making the electronic circuit boards themselves filter all their I/O and power lines for HF and over-voltage would be much easier to accomplish and probably more effective.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
He's not talking about weight watchers.
...
Ohh. Wait, nevermind.
sig: sauer
Yeah! The government should have the right to do whatever the hell it wants to you on public property. Get shot by a cop walking down the sidewalk? Should have been walking on your own fucking sidewalk. You were asking for it, bitch.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
IIRC with a Prius there is still a mechanical linkage, but it has a good amount of play before it engages the brakes. So if you lightly tap the pedal the computer can switch over to regen braking without using the pads, but if you stomp the pedal far enough the pads will be engaged.
I read the internet for the articles.
Pretty much every Japanese car has the ECU in a metal box under a metal plate in the passenger foot well. Some early Honda's had them in a box in the engine bay, but not any more.
You'd only need to shield the cables for the crank position sensors. All the other cables would either carry too much current to be adversely effected or abnormal signals would trigger an error code and at worse the check engine light would come on and the ECU would enter 'limp home' mode, with the engine still running. It may not run efficiently or at maximum performance though.
Have no experience with American or European cars though.
If you have one of these and you're the criminal, you dump the police car pursuing you in a mass of 40 stalled vehicles.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Option 2 stop chasing them? The FBI's research pretty much shows that they are simply dangerous http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/march-2010/evidence-based-decisions-on-police-pursuits they show that most chases are for minor offences and that the suspects will quickly return to safe driving after the chase is stopped. Pretty much car chases are cops getting an adrenaline rush at the expense of the public.
This,
In Australia they've moved from pursuits to a policy of interception.
Its safer for everyone (cops, suspect, bystanders... everyone) if the cops back off, watch the suspect and corner them.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Nothing but neckbeards spewing jargon out of their ass. Feeding a microwave transformer into a satellite dish does nothing. "Technically possible" means you think it is but have no engineering background to explain any theory or concepts.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard