Gut Microbes Linked to Autism-Like Symptoms in Mice

sciencehabit writes "Many physicians and parents report that their autistic children have unusually severe gastrointestinal problems, such as chronic constipation or diarrhea. These observations have led some researchers to speculate that an ailing gut contributes to the disorder in some cases, but scientific data has been lacking. Now, a provocative study claims that a probiotic treatment for gastrointestinal issues can reduce autismlike symptoms in mice and suggests that this treatment could work for humans, too."

Comments

What about self-diagnosed aspie slashdotters?

[Anonymous Coward]

They may need to find some other disorder to explain their anti-social behaviour and make them feel special.

Re:What about self-diagnosed aspie slashdotters?

[cascadingstylesheet]

I was just thinking that too ...

Chill man, just have some yogurt.

Re:What about self-diagnosed aspie slashdotters?

[Flere Imsaho]

My ex brother-in-law said after their divorce, "I think I might be autistic". My sister replied, "No, you're just an asshole".

common threads

[tstur]

Reminds me of when illness/death comes from some bad source of food and impacts a swath of people. It's always interested me to know how quickly and by what process the source is discovered. I know that when I feel weird and suspect bad food it's a bit of a challenge to think absolutely thoroughly back through every last thing I ate over the past X hours/days. I wonder if there are many other common threads such as this that might yield clues if researchers had more complete knowledge of every person with a particular condition including things that people may never mention thinking it isn't relevant or important.

Re:common threads

[somersault]

The thing is that if it's gut microbes, then good food will cause problems too. It will depend exactly what the bacteria's preferred food source is though. And toxins from bacteria in your stomach can absolutely affect your mood and ability to function.

Re:common threads

[Eunuchswear]

Depends.

Do you have an ulcer?

Re:common threads

[Sockatume]

They make people take a "food diary" when they think there's some sort of dietary involvement in a problem. You write down everything you consume so that you don't have to remember what you had in the three days before that migraine or outbreak of stomach cramps, or whatever. Could be interesting to blanket-issue food diaries and health questionnaires to a large population.

Re:common threads

[somersault]

Probably quite a lot through the course of the day, though I suppose a lot of them might die in that environment. I guess I should have said "gut", then. When I say "stomach" I'm often referring to the whole intestinal area, the same as someone might say "lie on your stomach", when in fact they mean your belly..

Re:common threads

[drinkypoo]

The thing is that if it's gut microbes, then good food will cause problems too.

I'll just leave this here. And over there, and there, and some over there, and some in the air... Of course, that's a virus, not bacteria, but the principle is the same. What's in the food can feed or kill off what's in your gut already, or the food can be contaminated, and the contamination can outcompete or otherwise interfere with the biota upon which you depend for proper digestive function. Either one can wreak havoc on your digestive system. And let us not forget antibiotics' influence on your GI tract. As we have produced greater numbers of more antibiotic-resistant bacteria through their overuse and misuse, we've led to more widespread and common use of the kind of antibiotics that are equivalent to the nuclear option when it comes to your intestines.

Re:common threads

[DuckDodgers]

The problem with food diaries is that some disorders take a long time to manifest, and a long time to clear up.

I have a sibling who suffered from chronic diarrhea for most of his adult life. It turned out he had undiagnosed celiac disease (inability for his digestive system to tolerate gluten from grains). He had tried a gluten free diet for weeks at a time many times just as an experiment, and it didn't help. It turns out that some celiac suffers need to eat fanatically gluten free (including using separate pots, pans, plates, and utensils from those that touch any form of gluten) for over six months before the symptoms improve.

He had done food diaries many times, desperate to have normal digestion, but it didn't help because of course having excellent records of what you ate yesterday or last week doesn't help if you need to make a change for half a year before it has any impact.

Re:common threads

[cusco]

I suspect you'll see a lot of the same phenomena that Neilson Ratings used to encounter, where people wrote down that they had watched a National Geographic documentary instead of the 'The Man Show' that they actually watched. Probably the count of diary-noted rice cakes would exceed the number of rice cakes manufactured by an order of magnitude.

Re:common threads

[Lumpy]

about 7.....
it drops to 3 when I go on a bender.

Re:great drug/hospital megacorps vs.

[game kid]

Activiaaaaa...

Re:Nonsense!

[glavenoid]

Imagine the implications of an autism vaccine.

Re:Nonsense!

[Chrisq]

That chick that appeared on Playboy said so!

Playboy, you say? I'd let her vaccinate me

As a nerd I assume that "Playboy" is some playbook-gameboy hybrid?

How can you tell an autistic mouse?

[Gothmolly]

Does it want to watch Wapner? Can it count cards? We need to come up with a better way of testing stuff out than on mice.

Re:How can you tell an autistic mouse?

[Sockatume]

Mazmanian and colleagues at Caltech used a mouse model of autism that is thought to approximately recreate three of the disorder's hallmark deficits: lack of social interaction, decreased communication (mice normally emit ultrasonic, birdsonglike chirps), and repetitive behaviors such as compulsive grooming or burying marbles.

They discovered increased levels of a particular bacterial metabolite in untreated autism-model mice versus normal mice or treated autism-model mice. Interestingly providing that metabolite to healthy mice increased anxiety but didn't cause any of the characteristic autistic symptoms.

Re:How can you tell an autistic mouse?

[amalcolm]

Feed pro-biotic yoghurt to criminals? Oh man, that is HARSH!

Re:How can you tell an autistic mouse?

[RatherBeAnonymous]

Oh, it's not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody.

Re:How can you tell an autistic mouse?

[jellomizer]

No, but if they are feeling sick and generally like crap they may have some more autism like symptoms, until they get better.
However Anxiety often called butterflies in your stomach for a reason. You feel a little stress and your body reacts to the stress which then feed backs to the brain and escalates it.

Now if you have Gut Bacteria (which we all do and for the most part it is a good thing) but your particular unique combination tends to react harder when you feel a little stress then it could cause the anxiety reflex. Other people they may still get the same initial stress but their bacteria mixture in their body doesn't react to it the same way and stops the feedback problem.

If this idea is truly the case in humans, then we may be able to treat autism with a mixture of antibiotics and probiotics to kill of the bad bacteria and add some good ones.

Re:How can you tell an autistic mouse?

[VortexCortex]

You can identify an autistic mouse the same way as an autistic human, or any other mammal: Look inside its brain.

Seriously? Gut bacteria... For neurological structural issues? I mean, that's like blaming a fever on a nasal drip, or blaming a warp core breach on a tachyon emitter malfunction.

Look, we need to just ditch psychology. That's just confirmation bias: "Autism like", fucking please stop. Let the folks like neurologists and cyberneticians, who study how behaviours actually occur via observable evidence and testable models, come up with the distinctions. Remember how the DSM is basically just bullshit? Remember how Autism Spectrum Disorder was punted because there was no observable link to reality thus the term doesn't mean a damn thing? Thus taking Asperger's syndrome out too? No? Then shut the fuck up and go educate yourself. Psychology isn't a science, its confirmation bias that doesn't hold up to the null hypothesis: the hypothesis that similarities of a group are nothing more than self selected hogwash. Science requires the null hypothesis to be disproved before you write a damn prescription. How does that make you feel?

Re:How can you tell an autistic mouse?

[VortexCortex]

relevant link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug

Re:How can you tell an autistic mouse?

[Jmc23]

Wow, you are so dumb.

Please stop reading sensationalist journalism. Then learn the difference between psychology and psychiatry and who invented the dsm. Then learn about how 'medical' science in the US is driven by corporate greed.

Then learn how dumb you are because it's psychology that actually does more real 'science' than medical science. You might like to learn that modelling is used in ALL areas of science as well.

Re:Nonsense!

[Joce640k]

Nonsense, it's obviously the vaccines! That chick that appeared on Playboy said so!

Don't worry, she'll go on national TV and apologize for all the harm she's done then spend the rest of her life making restitution.

Interesting findings, for the lazy

[Sockatume]

Firstly, they discovered that the autistic-model mouse had very different gut biota and suffered from digestive tract issues. The new bacterium didn't establish itself, but it did perturb the gut bacteria community to be closer to control mice, and reduced digestive tract issues.

Secondly, they discovered that this perturbation reduced the autism-model symptoms in the autism-model mice quite markedly.

Thirdly, they discovered a gut metabolite that was elevated in untreated autism-model mice versus control mice or treated autism-model mice. However providing that metabolite to control mice only caused an increase in anxiety behaviours, and not the specific autistic ones. So it's not just the metabolite which is responsible for the behaviours.

I wonder if there's some underlying difference in the neurology of the autism-model mice such that the metabolite "sets off" the autism-model behaviours rather than anxiety. Or perhaps the metabolite causes anxiety in both communities but the anxiety only then "sets off" the autism-model behaviours in the autism-model mice.

Re:Interesting findings, for the lazy

[somersault]

I wonder if there's some underlying difference in the neurology of the autism-model mice such that the metabolite "sets off" the autism-model behaviours rather than anxiety. Or perhaps the metabolite causes anxiety in both communities but the anxiety only then "sets off" the autism-model behaviours in the autism-model mice.

Is it not the case that the metabolite is necessary for the problem bacteria to replicate - but that the healthy mice don't have these bacteria in the first place, so introducing it won't have the same effect?

Re:Interesting findings, for the lazy

[Sockatume]

That's an interesting hypothesis, but the only bacterium they controlled for was one that helps not one that was causing any problems.

Re:Interesting findings, for the lazy

[somersault]

Yep, but the one that helps disrupted the already established bacteria, probably by reducing their supply chain. The fact that this chemical was elevated 48 time above normal levels in the autistic mice suggests that it's produced by the "bad" bacteria somehow.

Re:Interesting findings, for the lazy

[Sockatume]

On the other hand it's entirely possible that it's produced by the "good" bacteria and metabolised away by other good bacteria, and what's important is the balance. It simply hasn't been evaluated either way.

Re:Interesting findings, for the lazy

[TemperedAlchemist]

I like this line of thinking.

It's very likely that people with ASD are far more susceptible to anxiety and depression disorders, but this might be due to the ludicrous amount of bullying autistic children receive (38% in this study over a single month).

Re:Interesting findings, for the lazy

[wbackner]

You are correct, people with ASD have many more comorbid psychiatric conditions than most people realize. In fact adolescents with ASD tend to see the symptoms differently than their parents. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21683603.2013.845737 The article is paywalled right now, but psychiatric conditions are a very real problem for many people with ASD.

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[somersault]

Autism is genetic and is also influenced / is a function of the environment they are brought up in

Did you consider that it might not be passed on through DNA at all, and completely is a result of the environment, including the bacteria that your mum's side of the family have in their body? Or perhaps your DNA makes you more susceptible to these bacteria. I've been trying to figure out how exactly food affects my mood and behaviour for a while now..

so...Flowers for Algernon in reverse?

[turkeydance]

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you consider that it might not be passed on through DNA at all, and completely is a result of the environment,

I would be inclined to say that you do not know a lot of people with a history of Autism in the family.

As I said, it is genetic, but is also environmental, It can be from a singular source, genetic or environmental. At the end of the day it is about how the brain is wired, Its psychological at is its foundation. Eat healthy and have a varied diet, keep away from the junk / fast and sugar filled foods, drink lots of water etc. Plus a good amount of contructive socialising is the best recommendation.

Wakefield II

[Gallenod]

Isn't this the same thing Wakefield was trying to prove before he committed research fraud and started the whole "vaccines cause autism" nonsense?

Re:Wakefield II

[Sockatume]

His research was ostensibly to show whether the MMR vaccine - specifically the measles component - was the source of the digestive problems. The idea that the vaccine caused both the digestive problems and the autism was made up out of whole cloth for a press conference, to be blunt.

Wakefield was in the employ of lawyers at the time - he received government legal aid money, in fact - who were pursuing the autism-vaccination claim. Of course even if such a link could be found statistically, the strong causal evidence required would be much harder to obtain just because the disorder is so poorly understood. By contrast the gut disorder-measles link is quite simple to get at. If Wakefield's actual paper was confirmed, then a parent whose autistic child had bowel problems could then get damages for that particular problem in court, at the very least. Wakefield tried to get funding from his hospital to set up a company to design and make the diagnostic kits needed.

Re:Wakefield II

[Sockatume]

Actually, you know what? This is wrong. Somehow my memory has completely overstated the measles thing - perhaps because it was pretty robust research - and completely neglected that the paper also had an autism hypothesis.

Re:Wakefield II

[Sockatume]

(Well, robust but fake...)

Re:Wakefield II

[Jason Levine]

And, of course, Wakefield had his own MMR-replacement vaccine that he wanted to bring to market. So if he could prove that the MMR wasn't safe, he could swoop in, market his replacement, and make a lot of money. Of course, the anti-vax folks (and Wakefield himself) like to ignore this piece and accept Wakefield as being completely anti-vaccine.

Re:Wakefield II

[Vitriol Angst]

"we all know Wakefield was committing fraud..."

Right. The more corporate profit affects public discourse, the more certain we've become about CERTAIN FACTS.

The link between autism and stomach bacteria was also picked up by a lady by the name of Donna Gates who has been pushing the "Body Ecology Diet." I've been listening to her for a little over two decades and this link between stomach bacteria and a whole host of behavioral and health issues comes as no surprise.

I think that most food cravings, for instance, are not genetic, but orchestrated by bacteria in the gut and intestines. 80% of the Serotonin in your body is stored in the stomach and it only stands to reason that a few million generations of bacteria might latch on to affecting our neurotransmitters in order to improve survival. To bolster this theory, I was reading about studies with Fruit Flies which showed that it was stomach bacteria that were putting out pheromones they used to decide mates, by controlling what the flies ate, they controlled the bacteria and the bacteria inspired flies to pair up with other flies of similar gut bacteria.

Is it too controversial then, to take what we are finding out about Stomach bacteria affecting our minds and passions to maybe go a step further and think they might also have negative impacts on brain development? They've got the tools and the weapons, after all.

The CONNECTION here with Immunizations for me, is that when babies are out of the womb, their bodies are still trying to figure out "friend and foe." They eat peas for the first time -- and nothing bad happens; Friend. But when we immunize people -- the "bad chicken pox" is mixed in with what is called an adjutant. It's some stuff that makes you a "little sick" so that your body recognizes the dead virus signatures it delivers as "foe." But how does the body know the difference between genetic markers for chicken pox and the fist time a baby has had peas? I'm asking the question because I don't know how a body knows the difference and I wonder how many "Immunizations are always good" people have bothered to ask the question, or wonder if the TIMING of immunizations might not be why we have so many kids with food allergies.

So if we PERHAPS can entertain the idea that adjutants can immunize children against Chicken Pox and Peas or Peanuts at the same time -- what happens if it immunizes them against certain important proteins necessary for development? Being allergic to a specific protein that might cause Autism? The immune system can attack ANYTHING, and for the most part, it is not pre-programmed. When babies are developing, it figures out what to attack and not attack.

The reason our current statistic models can't narrow down this direct connection is that it is Russian Roulette with a million factors. A peanut allergy, hyperactivity, autism, diabetes, depression,... whatever. A million ailments, a million variables and million opportunities. Most of the time, nothing happens.

There has been a lot of cock sure speculation and certainty on both sides of the argument here. And some vaccines have great benefits -- while others are NOT PROVEN and people accept on faith that "since we dealt with Polio and Measles ALL VACCINES = PROGRESS". We need more real studies for each case, and on when they should be given. I'd push for most not given to babies (except for HPV vaccine) until after 9 months unless there is another risk factor.

My solution is not ALL VACCINES = BAD, but my point is that timing is everything and good vaccines are good.

Re:Wakefield II

[Vitriol Angst]

Why is "but he wanted money" always used to discredit someone being controversial and "but they make money" also not a point to consider that companies would cover up a causal link.

I'm not endorsing or dismissing Wakefield, but it's not like there is any way to FIGHT the entrenched immunization market without making money. Why can't a person make money solving a problem they just revealed to everyone?

Pure altruism seems to always be demanded if someone is fighting the status quo -- yet the status quo must always be proven corrupt to even begin fighting it.

Re:Wakefield II

[Jason Levine]

Because he didn't disclose this. If you disclose a conflict of interest, people can take it into account when they are listening to your argument. However, if you hide the fact that you stand to make a lot of money if your "study" is accepted because you already have an alternative ready to be marketed, it leads people to think the possibility of monetary gain might have led you to alter your study to come to the "right" conclusion.

Vell!

[Big Hairy Ian]

If zis is vot zey call gut bacteria I'd hate to see bat bacteria

Re:Gut bacteria? Probably a bunch of crap

[drinkypoo]

"Probiotic" is the little Shibboleth that makes this smell like woo.

If poop transplants can drastically improve health, why couldn't regulating your digestive system with probiotics? Yogurt is a probiotic. It has proven related health benefits. You're FUDding. Are you invested in Big Pharma? Or are you just being a dick?

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[somersault]

Sure, that's what science "knows" about it so far, but the idea that gut bacteria are a deciding factor also fits perfectly along with your "genetic or environmental" concept. If all you have is a hammer (genetics, environmental observation) then everything looks like a nail. Maybe there's more to it than bacteria, but the chemicals that we put into our body very obviously can affect behaviour and mental state.

Re:Gut bacteria? Probably a bunch of crap

[benjfowler]

Poe.

Of course

[manu0601]

Of course gut microbe play a role. Some aggressive species are able to attack the gut's cells, which cause the leaky gut syndrome, where food proteins not completely digested can enter the bloodstream. The immune system will seek and destroy them, every day, on every meal. That can trigger allergies and autoimmune diseases.

Moreover proteins from milk and wheat contains sequences that are hard to break down, and that can activate morphine receptors in the brain. They are called caseomorphins and gliadomorphins. Some (but not all) autists have success in reducing their symptoms by adopting a diet without diary product and gluten, and it is suspected this is for that reason.

Re:Of course

[manu0601]

Maybe "leaky gut syndrome" is to blame for some things. Or maybe it isn't. Scientific research isn't even sure it exists, which your post conveniently omits.

Leaky gut syndrome can be assessed, by looking at normally non digested sugars in urine. Here is a paper on the topic, and you can find many other ones.

(Also, allergies and autoimmune diseases are not the same thing as autism.)

I never said they were. I just pointed that in some case they have the same cause.

Re: Specific Carbohydrate Diet

[somersault]

Irritation causes inflammation. It might appear to be a disease if you can't figure out what is causing the irritation.

Re:Specific Carbohydrate Diet

[Goose In Orbit]

It not only addresses the role bacteria plays in autism, downs, etc

Daft question: If she has all the answers - why is there research still being done?

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[nightsky30]

Environmental bacteria might not be the only factor, bit I think gut bacteria is indeed worth looking into. I remembered an article I read a few weeks ago about infants possibly suppressing their immune systems to let in "good" gut bacteria. Well, what if they also let in some not so good gut bacteria that leads to Autism? Doesn't Autism usually start to show during very early childhood?

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[ebno-10db]

At the end of the day it is about how the brain is wired, Its psychological at is its foundation.

If it's about how the brain is wired, then it's neurological, not psychological. Autism is generally classified as a neurological disorder.

Re:Nonsense!

[Applehu Akbar]

If autism turns out to have a microbial cause, the actual treatment might be a vaccine. If this happens, would anti-tech hippie heads explode?

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[DuckDodgers]

A common symptom of autism is a lack of tact. So the rude delivery of their pronouncement might back up their claim to be autistic.

Re:Nonsense!

[jones_supa]

;D

Re:Nonsense!

[Jason Levine]

Didn't you hear? She cured her son's autism using a gluten-free diet and some other nonsense that you can probably read about in her book. Yes, Playboy Model cures a developmental disorder that scientists don't even have a complete understanding for yet. She must be a genius!

[end sarcasm]

(Disclaimer: Both my son and I have Asperger's Syndrome/High Functioning Autism and claims that someone is going to "cure" me or my son are just insulting. A treatment to alleviate symptoms for the folks on the "low functioning" end of the spectrum maybe, but curing someone implies that there's something wrong with that person and I don't see Autism as "wrong", just as a different way of thinking - one that happens to come in very handy at times.)

Didn't we already know this?

[Agent0013]

I know people who have made great strides is the symptoms of their autistic children by changing their diet and especially cutting out gluten. I thought there was already a known connection between the gut bacteria and autism. Oh, well. Sometimes it takes the mainstream a while to catch up on what some people are figuring out.

Re:Didn't we already know this?

[TemperedAlchemist]

It's anecdotal and has no empirical backing. Pilot studies aren't showing promise, but a larger study is required to make any definitive conclusions.

It's likely because of the incidence of intestinal disorders, namely celiac disease, switching the diet is providing treatment for the specific disorder improves their children's symptoms, but isn't actually affecting the underlying autism.

Re:Didn't we already know this?

[Yaztromo]

I thought there was already a known connection between the gut bacteria and autism.

The best anyone can really say at this point is that gut bacteria might play a role in some peoples autistic symptoms, but certainly not all. It's not a panacea by a long shot. Some autistic children do see some improvement through the use of specialized diets. Others see no change at all. I'm the father of an autistic child who falls into the latter category -- on a typical diet she shows no propensity to constipation, diarrhoea, or other obvious digestive issues, and on a gluten and dairy free diet, she isn't any different than on a typical diet.

Chances are there are multiple routes to the same sort of neural-developmental issues that cause autism in individuals. This research is promising for those whose autism does have a digestive basis, but that doesn't mean that all autism comes from the same source, or that no further research is needed into other possible causes.

Yaz

Re:Didn't we already know this?

[wbackner]

Also, most parents report improvement when their children are on restrictive diets due to confirmation biases and how our minds work. When something is difficult to do we usually will notice and remember the evidence that it worked. Keeping children on a restrictive diet is hard to do. In order to not feel bad about putting in all of this hard work for no result, parents tend to "see" the improvements even though empirical evidence has shown that special diets do not affect ASD symptoms.

Re:Didn't we already know this?

[g00ey]

I have an idea here; closer examinations have shown that the intestines actually contain brain tissue or at least brain-like tissue. Such tissues have also been found in other organs, but particularly in the intestines. Other studies have also found that drugs such as SSRI and tranquilizers also affect the intestines, even to such a degree that treatments of some cases of IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) with such medications have been successful. So the 'function' of this 'brain tissue' in the intestines appears to be quite essential.

The digestion process ought to be very complicated and delicate so it is no surprise that a more 'intelligent' form of tissue is needed to control it carefully. We don't know exactly how this tissue works and how it interacts with the gut bacteria. Some small changes in this brain tissue's configuration could probably make or break the prosperity of healthy gut bacteria.

So perhaps the connection between autism and the gut problems may be due to a general disorder of the neural system that also affects the intestinal "brain tissue". Interestingly, also people who suffer migraine (which is also another form of neural disorder) also tend to suffer from digestive disorders in connection to a migraine outbreak.

It would also be interesting to find out whether there is a link between autism and other organs' "brain tissue". E.g. the heart has brain tissue in it so perhaps there is also a link between neurological heart disorders (such as arrhythmia; both the lethal as well as the benign variants...) and disorders such as autism.

Re:Didn't we already know this?

[Vitriol Angst]

switching the diet is providing treatment for the specific disorder improves their children's symptoms, but isn't actually affecting the underlying autism.

LOL. The "symptom" is being non-functional and impaired IQ. If mitigating the symptoms means the child functions at a higher level, then let's throw out 90% of the "treatments" which don't cure that we get prescribed. And forget about anti-depressants because that's just a symptom suppressant as well.

I'm going to go ahead and say that the next GREAT medical discovery will be based on transplanting healthy gut bacteria. The "modern medical community" will take all the credit wall all the alternative medicine people will still be ridiculed as morons. I agree that there is a general lack of scientific method going on, but the approach of many people in this alternative field is to look at a complex system as a ecology problem, and know there isn't one silver bullet of "add tigers" or "add rabbits" to solve the problem. It's looking at a person as a biological system rather than a series of parts.

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[Jason Levine]

I think the need to label it as coming from Vaccines/antibiotics/whatever also comes from the lack of control parents feel as well. Their child isn't developing "normally" and, if it is genetics, they would have been unable to have stopped or prevented this. If the problem is that vaccines (or some other completely unproven factor) is to blame then if they only did X or didn't do Y, their kid would be "normal" and they can "help" other parents by advocating for/against that thing.

There's a post going around social media (that I refuse to link to) called "How I gave my child autism" where the author blames herself for all of the things she did which "gave" her child autism from ultrasounds to vaccines to having a C-Section. The level of woo in that post is very high as the author seems determined to make Jenny McCarthy look scientific in nature.

In my case, we got the diagnosis on Asperger's Syndrome/High Functioning Autism on our oldest son after years of trying to figure out what was going on with him. As we read book after book on Asperger's Syndrome, I realized these books were describing me as well. I haven't been diagnosed mainly because 1) it costs money we can't afford to spend, and 2) my diagnosis won't help my son at all. Still, I'm convinced that I have Asperger's Syndrome and "gave" it to my son via genetics. (Yes, I went through a period of feeling guilty for this even though I knew intellectually that this wasn't something where there was blame to assign.)

On the subject of the gut bacteria issue, my guess is that discomfort from the gut bacteria problem exacerbates autism symptoms. Treating the gut bacteria issue doesn't cure autism, but does reduce discomfort which lets people with autism cope with the neurotypical world better. To neurotypicals, this looks like autism is being cured when it's just being "hidden" better.

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[ebno-10db]

its genetic and or environmental ... there is a history of Autism being blamed on whatever is convenient to blame it on

Which is it? Is autism a real neurological condition, caused by genetic and/or environmental factors, or is it a BS diagnosis used to excuse poor parenting?

there is a history of Autism being blamed on whatever is convenient to blame it on, rather than addressing the real issues, which when you get down to it, is about supporting the person in question, so they are more able to interact with people on a normal level

So having autism per se isn't a real issue? It's not neurological? Or is it such a mild neurological condition that the only "real issue" is "supporting the person in question"?

Your autism is mild. It may cause you anxiety, social difficulties and whatnot, but so can a million other things. If the spectrum went no further than your level, it would be a diagnosis of questionable value, and it wouldn't be more troublesome, or more difficult to treat than anxiety, social difficulties (oops, disorder), etc., not associated with an autism diagnosis.

Don't talk about your situation as though it had much to do with severe autism though - the kind where many of its sufferers can't speak, may have compulsions so severe that they cause severe bodily harm to themselves, and can never be left unsupervised. Comparing your condition to that is like comparing feeling a little blue to being so depressed you're about to jump off a bridge. Stop acting as though your situation allows you to speak authoritatively about the entire autism spectrum.

I am not the asshole, the real assholes are the parents who do not provide the required support to their kids and their answer to their kids behavioural issues is to keep them constantly duped up on ritalin and always look to blame it on something, rather than providing a healthier environment for their kids.

Whose experience are you talking about? If it's yours, then unless you were seriously abused and neglected, stop feeling sorry for yourself and blaming your parents for all your problems. If you're talking about others, I find it hard to take it seriously. "They're bad parents" is the oldest catch-all way to explain what you don't understand. With autism "blame the parents" has a particularly illustrious history, dating back to the old, damn science and pull a "psychological explanation" out of your ass, refrigerator mom theory.

their answer to their kids behavioural issues is to keep them constantly duped up on ritalin

Ritalin is generally used to treat ADHD, not autism. Risperidone is the most common pharmaceutical treatment, and also the only medication for which autism symptom treatment is an on-label use.

It would be nice if you used some name other than "Anonymous Coward" if you want to participate in protracted debates. If you're the OP though, and claim to also have an ADHD diagnosis, I agree that ADHD is a very questionable and certainly wildly overused diagnosis. Hence its "treatment" is often questionable. ADHD is not autism.

Re:Nonsense!

[TemperedAlchemist]

There's already a good lead that amino acid supplementation may cure a certain rare form of autism, but there are many different causes. It's important to note that the study wasn't done on humans (research ongoing), and the type presents with intellectual disability (retardation) and epilepsy.

So the above doesn't actually treat "autism", it treats certain debilitating aspects of it. The personality nuances may still be intact after treatment, we don't know for sure yet.

In the study we're discussing now, "autism-like" was a good choice of words. We're not actually certain the mice had autism: they simply displayed symptoms that scientists concluded were autistic.

In the end autism isn't studied enough to make any definite conclusions about anything. On a more philosophical note, however, imagine if there were an introvert vaccine that turned introverts into extroverts. Perhaps we're closing in on a point where we can alter people's personalities, which has some wide implications for the penal and mental health systems.

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[Jason Levine]

Actually, Autism is a developmental disorder. For example, my son with Asperger's Syndrome/High Functioning Autism is ten years old. Socially, though, he's about six. (Coincidentally, the same age as his younger, neurotypical brother.) Intellectually, though, he's about 12 so teaching him can be very challenging. He'll grasp concepts quickly, get bored, and engage in socially inappropriate behaviors that someone years younger than he is would consider funny. (Thankfully, many of his peers understand about his Autism. Wish I could say the same about all of his teachers.)

When they start talking ...

[Rambo Tribble]

... about the gut, you always wonder if scientists are giving you the straight shit.

Re:Nonsense!

[B33rNinj4]

Word. My daughter and I are aspies, and I see no reason for a "cure." That being said, the autism spectrum is pretty broad, and anything that could help alleviate the more severe issues associated with it would be tremendously beneficial.

10,000 bacteriums

[minstrelmike]

Considering that most of the cells "inside" the body (if you don't think of the human system as a torus)
are non-human and form an entire ecosystem that digests nutrients out of the substances we ingest,
it makes sense that good digestion is as fundamental to us as it is to a tree (which also relies on an exterior soil ecosystem).

This would also coincide with the apparent disease-like spread of autism thru the population.
The spread of autism also displays a flavor of inheritance and we aren't completely sure how gut bacteria spread
but it's likely that you get it from the people you spend the most time around.

Re:10,000 bacteriums

[Jason Levine]

The "disease-like spread" of autism is a myth. What's really happening is that detection is getting better and better. Decades ago, you'd classify a child as "just shy" or "anti-social" or "odd ducks" and write them off (or try helping them but fail). If the child was far enough on the Autism spectrum, the child would be locked up and never spoken of again. (The family's "dirty little secret" of little Johnny who is kept locked up in his house and never allowed to interact with anyone else because nobody can get him to stop flapping his arms.) However, as we can better spot the signs of autism and as the stigma disappears (little Johnny is no longer locked up and never spoken of), the "rates" climb.

Re:10,000 bacteriums

[Whorhay]

Depressingly enough this is what I believe also in regards to the rise in autism's prevalence. As a parent it kills me a little every time I see one of those shows on TV where they investigate special rooms in houses, typically in the attic or basement, where there is no doornob on the inside and the space has childrens belongings inside.

No Playboy on your Playbook

[tepples]

Playboy: Entertainment for Men is a monthly magazine that's essentially The New Yorker with more pictures of naked women. Nintendo would never allow that sort of nudity on its platform. I just checked App World, and Playboy doesn't appear in the magazines section, nor does Playboy appear to have a Kindle edition. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

Re:No Playboy on your Playbook

[Lumpy]

and far better articles than the New Yorker....

Really I DO read the articles...

Re:No Playboy on your Playbook

[davester666]

i agree, the playmate resume's are excellent reading material

Re:Nonsense!

[minstrelmike]

Playboy Model cures a developmental disorder that scientists don't even have a complete understanding for yet. She must be a genius!

If she has a book full of easy-to-follow pictures, I'd probably skim it.
You know, just for the medical value.

Re:Nonsense!

[dryeo]

My son who is autistic started talking and became much more relaxed after cutting milk out of his diet. This was when he was in grade 1 and had only a couple of words and often became disruptive enough in class that he needed 2 strong men to remove him from class.
Afterwards the odd time when someone did feed him diary I could tell right away by how he was acting out. Eventually his IQ also went from 80 to 120 except in communicating (speech and writing) where it stayed at 80. Not a cure but it sure improved his capabilities and functioning.
Note that ethnically he is of stock that has no lactose digesting history so like the majority of people in the world should only have minimal diary anyways.

Controlling your autism may help you land a job

[tepples]

My daughter and I are aspies, and I see no reason for a "cure."

Other than perhaps widespread discrimination by interviewers against people who show symptoms during the interview?

Re: Specific Carbohydrate Diet

[somersault]

It's not ignorant to think that food plays a role in bowel problems. There are many recognised conditions that are aggravated by certain foods.. so to think that simply taking a pill, but continuing to eat any old shit is a good way to treat it.. that's pretty a pretty ignorant way of looking at it.

Going on a low carbohydrate diet a few years ago (to lose weight) cleared up several other problems that I wouldn't have even related to diet at the time (such as my nose almost always being irritated and blocked).

I don't need to lose any weight right now, but after reading this thread, I'm thinking I'll go back to no carb again for a while and see how it affects me.

Re:Nonsense!

[dryeo]

Well the original theory was that the combination of 3 live vaccines given to the very young overloaded part of their immune system and screwed up their guts. The fix at the time was considered to be splitting up the MMR vaccine into 3 shots spread out a bit in time. I was quite interested as my son was one of the children who coincidently stopped talking and started acting different in the week following his second MMR shot. I'll also note he has had very rank farts most of his life.
Later the weirdos with their mercury fetish became very vocal.

Re:Nonsense!

[Lumpy]

You forgot it requires Scientology application 3 times a day.

Futurama

[ThatsNotPudding]

"All I know is my gut says 'maybe'."

'Maybe' onto something here.

There are 99556734974321 bacteria in my gut

[Hal_Porter]

I have just calculated that in my head. Am I safe?

Re:There are 99556734974321 bacteria in my gut

[Jmc23]

No. You're either autistic since you remembered a useless fact like there's ~ 100 trillion, or you're a social loser for looking something like that up just to make a very bad joke.

Re:Gut bacteria? Probably a bunch of crap

[EvilSS]

There is a vast difference between fecal transplants and the "probiotics" that you find in the healthfood section of your local store. The key difference is that one has been proven to work in rigorous and repeated scientific study, and the other has not. That said, I think what TFA is talking about is closer to to a fecal transplant where existing gut bacteria are cultured from the control mice and transferred to the model mice.

And before you ask no, I'm not heavily invested in big pharma. I am, however, a well read dick with digestive issues and access to journals.

Re:Nonsense!

[Jason Levine]

We're not actually certain the mice had autism: they simply displayed symptoms that scientists concluded were autistic.

That was what stood out to me. They noticed that the mice weren't as social, but they don't know WHY. I can't personally speak for the lower-functioning end of the Autism spectrum, but on the high functioning end (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome), the autistic individual WANTS very much to socialize, but literally doesn't know how. They can figure out how and "emulate" neurotypical enough to carry on conversations, but this is taxing on them and they can't keep it up forever without needing time to decompress. Like how an emulated application never runs as fast as a native application. Neurotypicals run "socializing" as a native app. Aspies emulate it (with varying degrees of success).

Add in the fact that Aspies can be so afraid of making a mistake while "emulating neurotypical" (possibly insulting someone) that it is easier and safer to just not interact at all. To the outside world, it looks like Aspies just are anti-social and would rather be left alone.

So maybe the mice really did want to socialize with other mice but didn't know the mouse social protocols that other mice knew instinctively. Or maybe there was another reason for their lack of socialization. At most, this might lead to treatments that remove some stumbling blocks which prevent autistic individuals from functioning in the neurotypical world. Not all stumbling blocks, but some of them. If it's a treatment that helps autistic individuals, great. If some woo folks grab onto this and start claiming to be able to "cure" autism by following their woo diet, very bad.

Re:Gut bacteria? Probably a bunch of crap

[VortexCortex]

If you had a structural defect, like a broken arm, and I prescribed yoghurt... You'd be pretty pissed off that I didn't tell you it was just calcium you needed and that I didn't mend your arm. You should be equally upset if you had a mental structural defect and I told you to go eat shit.

Re:Nonsense!

[Ultracrepidarian]

I have a grandson with autism, and his family is always joking about his rank farts. I never thought I'd be writing about farts on slashdot, but maybe there's something to this.

Office harmony and race

[tepples]

One used to be able to make the "office harmony" argument against hiring people of the wrong skin color until the enactment of civil rights legislation. It's just harder to prove autism discrimination than racial discrimination in court.

Re:Nonsense!

[Jmc23]

Didn't you hear? She cured her son's autism using a gluten-free diet and some other nonsense that you can probably read about in her book. Yes, Playboy Model cures a developmental disorder that scientists don't even have a complete understanding for yet. She must be a genius!

[end sarcasm]

And what's wrong with that? Don't forget that science is bogged down by belief. I also 'cured' my autism through diet and other 'nonsense'.

(Disclaimer: Both my son and I have Asperger's Syndrome/High Functioning Autism and claims that someone is going to "cure" me or my son are just insulting. A treatment to alleviate symptoms for the folks on the "low functioning" end of the spectrum maybe, but curing someone implies that there's something wrong with that person and I don't see Autism as "wrong", just as a different way of thinking - one that happens to come in very handy at times.)

Oh grow up already. A cure doesn't mean you lose who you are, it means you discover more of who you are meant to be. Of course, most people, like you, are too scared shitless of being anything besides what they know and are comfortable with. Don't let your fears, biases, and beliefs affect your son, that would be more detrimental to him than any 'cure' could ever be. A point of view is only useful if one recognises it as just one tool in a full toolbox. If you can't change viewpoints at will then it is not a positive in your life, it means your reality is constrained. This applies to both NT's and autists.

Re:Nonsense!

[Jmc23]

Maybe you're an aspie BECAUSE you see no need for a cure.

Re:Load of BS as usual about autism.

[Jmc23]

Your guess would be wrong.

Stuff can't be fixed when it's constantly being attacked.

Re: Nonsense!

[FriendlySoviet]

I think that's is the normal age that aspies start talking though. Correlation doesn't equal causation and what not. Parentsaren't experts.

Re:Nonsense!

[Vitriol Angst]

What if some day the "Hollywood model" is proven right?

I can think if a lot of entrenched "medical certainty" that has been overturned, and it seems to just morph into everyone "at the present time" believing in the infallibility of modern medicine.

Really, "modern medicine" is just a results based commercial hodge-podge that is only slightly better than the days when "modern medicine" was giving people bloodletting and mercury.

There are a few really good things like Penicillin that make up the bulk of "modern medicine's" success, and then there is a lot of cough syrup. It's only in the past decade I think they started treating ulcers as problems of bacteria and not problems of stomach acid.

Medicine is the last damn field that can pretend to have a real understanding of what is going on. If you took away plumbing, good food handling practices and refrigeration, people would be dropping like flies just as they were BEFORE modern medicine.

There really is something to this

[hmbJeff]

I have two close friends whose children each had symptoms similar to Asbergers/Autism whose lives have been transformed by changing their diet in ways that are generally aligned with the ideas in this study (unhealthy bacterial conditions in gut cause undigested proteins to leak through the gut into the bloodstream, where they cause problems when they bind to receptors in brain or other tissues).

There is a strict diet called the GAPS Diet that both of these families followed and they began to see substantive changes within months, and ongoing improvements over a couple of years that have really allowed these kids to blossom.

This is not hearsay. I knew these kids before and I know them after, and they have improved dramatically.

Re:Gut bacteria? Probably a bunch of crap

[drinkypoo]

There is a vast difference between fecal transplants and the "probiotics" that you find in the healthfood section of your local store.

Yes, that's true. The former is for use in emergencies. The latter is what you use to avoid getting into an emergency situation. Because as it turns out, your intestines are possibly the home of your immune system in a very real way. Your gut bacteria turn out to be very important to immune defense, and what you eat has a direct influence on your gut bacteria. In particular, eating a lot of sugars feeds the harmful organisms and permits them to outcompete the beneficial ones.

The key difference is that one has been proven to work in rigorous and repeated scientific study, and the other has not.

Yes, that's what the FDA says about anything that hasn't undergone tests which check their particular boxes, whether they're good science or not. I have looser standards than they do. Also, I don't actually trust them. In this case the EU health cocks say the same thing, but that's no different really.

Re: Specific Carbohydrate Diet

[DeBaas]

I have a tip for you then, you probably don't need to go 'no-carb'.

I stopped eating wheat and dairy for bowel problems. I replaced wheat with spelt (different grain) for bread, cookies, pasta etc. And not only did it for me also solve nose issues as well as the bowel issues, I also lost the 20kg weight I had gained since my early twenties.

I personally believe that in stead of no carb, people should go with the right carbs.

Re:Nonsense!

[ToddInSF]

Maybe you don't have Asperger's at all; maybe you're just an asshole.

Re:Nonsense! - GAPS diet

[mathew42]

You might want to read Gut and Psychology Syndrome | GAPS Diet by Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. Some doctors in the UK and US are using this approach to treat autism with good results, but there no published studies that I'm aware of. The main focus points of the book are probiotics (like kefir) and eliminating artificial additives (e.g preservatives, colours & flavours), gluten and casein.

Friends with autistic children have noticed improvement by following the book, but as others have said autism is complex and not fully understood. We've noticed significant behavioural improvements, eczema cured and disappearnce of mystery ankle pains in our own non-autistic kids by eliminating presevatives, especially 282 found in many bread products. I wouldn't consider it scientifically proven but since the cost is minimal and risks (almost) non-existant, I would recommend trialing a GAPS diet.

Probiotics are now recommended by some doctors to restore gut health after a course of antibiotics.

Re:Nonsense!

[Joce640k]

What if some day the "Hollywood model" is proven right?

Penn and Teller said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

Re:Nonsense!

[Jason Levine]

Exactly. Even if some study came out tomorrow proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Autism was caused by vaccines (and leaving out the fact that such a study would require a LOT of double and triple checking before it would be accepted), I'd still support the use of vaccines. Better to have a live child with autism then a neurotypical child who dies of measles, whooping cough, polio, etc.