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Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, Yahoo Form Alliance Against NSA

Posted by samzenpus on from the team-up dept.

mrspoonsi writes "BBC reports: Leading global technology firms have called for 'wide-scale changes' to US government surveillance. Eight firms, Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, AOL, Microsoft, LinkedIn, and Yahoo, have formed an alliance called Reform Government Surveillance group. The group has written a letter to the US President and Congress arguing that current surveillance practice 'undermines the freedom' of people. It comes after recent leaks detailed the extent of surveillance programs. 'We understand that governments have a duty to protect their citizens. But this summer's revelations highlighted the urgent need to reform government surveillance practices worldwide,' the group said in an open letter published on its website."

42 of 293 comments (clear)

  1. Yeah by GroeFaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

    And if that fails, at least give us a standardized interface to share our data, for saving costs.

    --
    The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
    1. Re:Yeah by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Surprisingly enough, I think this may be fairly serious. The big US Internet business are becoming increasingly scared that the spectre of NSA mass data-gathering is going to shut them out of markets outside the US.

    2. Re:Yeah by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      question: do these companies care about US or THEIR PROFITS (due to people turning away from their free online services)?

      I'll give you one guess which of those it is.

      in fact, those companies KNEW about the spying (they were asked by the gov, many many times, to reveal info about their users) but only NOW do they *act* like they care about us.

      just an excuse to try to make themselves look good and stand along the side of citizens in what they perceive as an alignment.

      but its all bullshit. those companies do not care one whit about our privacy. they DO care about a mass exodus away from their services to offshore ones and the fact that 'the cloud' is now seen as something to be avoided.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:Yeah by Nerdfest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm amazed the foreign governments even consider ising an americal based OS (at any time really, but most certainly now) for anything that requires any level of security while also being internet connected. Really, the same goes for most software. It just seems like asking to be pwned.

    4. Re:Yeah by robinsonne · · Score: 4, Informative

      Of course they care about profits! In this instance though, it might just work to our advantage. These are companies with a LOT of money, and in politics money is far more important than than anything else. These companies actually have the money and clout to make anything at all change.

      You really think the voters have a chance to make their voices heard?

    5. Re:Yeah by gmuslera · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Is a bit different than that. They are complaining now because the revelation of this is making their paid users to stop using their services. They may or may not be worried about their users privacy, but for sure they are worried about their profits.

      In the other hand, tif well they knew the cut of the cake they were getting, they didn't know about all the other companies into the same and how wide and deep were this. Also, the revelation on how the NSA infiltrated their internal network without their knowledge or consent could had raised some alarms.

      In any case, if the NSA head can lie to the congress without consequences after that being found out, why can't they tell all of them that it is over while keep doing it (and keeping the backdoors in their internal networks to keep doing the dirty work) or force them in a way or another to tell the world that all is over when is not, or even plant a fake whiteblower that confirms that the NSA stopped their programs ? By now trust is deeply broken in all that surrounds the NSA, if tomorrow they say that 2+2=4 you should bet that they are doing math in base 3.

    6. Re:Yeah by JDG1980 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      question: do these companies care about US or THEIR PROFITS (due to people turning away from their free online services)?

      Of course they are primarily concerned about their profits (especially about the potential loss of business from non-US customers, who under current NSA doctrine apparently have no right to privacy at all). But in this case, the companies are right on the merits. Their interests and the interests of the general public are, on this particular issue, aligned.

      Civil liberties battles are hard enough under the best of circumstances. You take your allies where you can find them.

    7. Re:Yeah by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Informative

      no, I won't 'take my allies where I can find them'. they can too easily shift back to being against me. they are NOT my alies, just enemies of my enemy. haven't you been paying attention the last, say, 20 years or so?

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    8. Re:Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Linux is always an alternative.

    9. Re:Yeah by ausekilis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Linux is always an alternative.

      Not if the publisher of a particular business-critical application refuses to make it work in Wine, or the manufacturer of a particular business-critical peripheral refuses to provide a Linux driver.

      If that publisher sees incentive (i.e. money) or disincentive (i.e. loss of money), they'll play ball. There are Point of Sale systems that work on top of Linux, some medical systems work on Linux, even your cell phone is likely to be based on Linux (Android). I can all but guarantee that if a government body or a sufficiently large corporation say "we love this, but need it to work on that", you'll see motion in that direction. Look at Valve's push to Linux. It's not a blowaway success, but it's certainly stirring things up.

    10. Re:Yeah by bmajik · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think Snowden changed the game on this

      Before the Snowden revelation, it wasn't widely accepted that the government was reading everything anybody ever wrote. For _one_ of these companies to come forward to complain was like the prisoners dilemma. There was no guarantee that other players would follow suit, so for GOOG to come out and say "The NSA is spying on you and we can't stop them" puts GOOG at a competitive disadvantage. Furthermore, all of this stuff was secret; not to be disclosed publicly, etc. Companies weren't sure how much teeth there were in those rules, so were further hesitant to talk much about it.

      Post Snowden, its all different. Now its an open secret that this happens, and it happens to everyone. Now there's no posturing or competitive advantage to be exploited; everyone is in the same boat. This is a populist issue and once one company made noise about sticking it to the NSA, the rest were going to have to follow.

      The other thing that has changed is that Snowden and Lavabit have both gone public. The public has spoken. We now have proof of what kind of stuff the Feds will do and how far they'll go to keep it quiet. The people who leaked this stuff survived.

      The government might be able to sue Yahoo or Lavabit or any of them individually, but it cannot sue the entire tech industry.. not right now.

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
  2. Will they leave the USA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What's their nuclear option? What's their post-nuclear strategy? It's doubtful the NSA is going to change their ways.

  3. It's like the hyenas criticising the lions by rizole · · Score: 5, Insightful

    current surveillance practice 'undermines the freedom' of people.

    1. Re:It's like the hyenas criticising the lions by Baloroth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      current surveillance practice 'undermines the freedom' of people.

      I can choose not to use Google (yes, I can even choose to disable their trackers on websites, like, say Slashdot). I can't choose not to have the NSA snoop on email. So it's more like the merchants criticizing the taxmen. One will happily take your freedoms if you give it to them, the other will take your freedoms willing or not.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  4. "undermines the freedom" of people by mrspoonsi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They really mean "undermines our companies bottom line".

    Google is happy to collect all the information it can get its hands on (and get away with), I am sure the others are equally as complicit.

    1. Re:"undermines the freedom" of people by Nerdfest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a big difference between volunteering your information and having it scooped up by a government agency that has already shown that it will use the information to blackmail you.

  5. Re:congrats guys and gals by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    thank you for releasing a press statement claiming that you are standing up, in a way that mollifies those concerned about their privacy, while lacking any substantive evidence of resistance

    American corporations, and these 5, in particular, have shown a history of not minding deceitful marketing in the slightest. I feel no compelling reason to trust them.

  6. Damage Control Mode - ON. Well, fuck 'em all by rodrigoandrade · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is nothing but a PR stunt by these firms to save face, since they all happily collaborated with NSA's dirty practices in exchange of dough and political favors.

    I say fuck 'em all!!

    1. Re:Damage Control Mode - ON. Well, fuck 'em all by wickerprints · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Policy-wise, nothing really gets done in the US without the implicit consent of corporate power. This applies even to things like spying. The government is run by the wealthy elite and therefore the policies are designed to favor their interests. Where those interests may conflict, it is usually the entity with the greater influence or better connections that gets their way.

      This latter point is where we stand with regard to warrantless domestic surveillance of US citizens by the NSA. The eight companies that have "allied" against this practice, albeit influential as a group, have been for the most part self-interested competitors, and many of them make no attempt to hide the fact that they run a business model that is predicated upon mining personal data from its users in order to sell advertising (Google and Facebook being the most notable examples).

      However, that is not to say that they actively or "happily" collaborated with the NSA. The legal requirements, as far as we have been apprised of them, force their cooperation. It is not logical to assume that just because their business involves exploiting their users, that they would not object to NSA surveillance, because the latter does have a deleterious effect on the former. If users suddenly feel paranoid because they think these companies are (willingly or unwillingly) handing over their personal information to the government, then they would be more reluctant to share that data by posting it online. The fear of surveillance brings about increased awareness of the need for protecting one's privacy, which of course is NOT what these companies want. That is the essential argument behind their opposition.

      In any case, these companies are merely the repositories for end-user information. The real culprits here, the ones who ARE happily handing over information to the government, are the telecommunications companies, notably AT&T. They are the ones who let the NSA install listening devices on their networks. And you will note that these companies have NOT banded together to protest this illegal surveillance program. They don't see any need to, because they have too much power (since the entire internet is reliant on them) and, unlike Google and Facebook, they have no incentive to protect the data that flows through their networks. If a subscriber doesn't want to share personal information about themselves to a social network, they can opt out of doing so, and the result is a loss of valuable data for the company that operates that network. But it is MUCH harder to completely forgo the internet entirely, which is what you would have to do in order to avoid having AT&T send your data to the NSA. And AT&T doesn't make their money off selling your personal information to advertisers. They make it off your basic need for connectivity.

  7. Re:congrats guys and gals by Virtucon · · Score: 5, Informative

    Their statement should read "You're fucking up our business model and shareholder equity, stop copying us!"

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  8. PR stunt by hochl · · Score: 4, Informative

    They will encrypt all their traffic and hard drives but leave open the surveillance API on their running servers to access the data. Or they will share the encryption keys. "All data will be encrypted to protect customers" is nothing more but a PR stunt!

  9. But nothing, corporations under your control by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Informative

    Where is the alliance to prevent Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, and Yahoo (and Amazon) from invading our privacy...

    That's in your power. Don't use them, or use them in ways you know they can't track you (disable flash/cookies etc).

    It's still a VASTLY better situation than the government, which you cannot opt out of. You cannot realistically not use a phone; you cannot realistically connect to the internet at all and not be at risk of the NSA breaking into your system unwanted.

    At least what companies DO is transparent. Anyone can see what the websites are sending/receiving, and you know when you are visiting or making use of them. The same is never true of the government.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  10. i say: put your money where your mouth is. by ClassicASP · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We probably won't hear a word about these folks in public TV due to well orchestrated govt control, which makes it less obvious to the public. I say: all seven of these should stand together united with the same message and video on their homepages. That'll force their way into public television networks.

  11. what bullshit! by Connie_Lingus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    why, in heaven's name, would ANYONE believe this nonsense after all the lying that these corps. and agencies have been stuffing up our butts?

    talk about astroturf on a grand scale...more like astroturd.

    --
    never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
    1. Re:what bullshit! by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 3, Interesting

      one good thing to come from the NSA scandal is that people are finally realizing they can't trust:

      - the government (the data collectors and manipulators, at least)

      - big business

      and in a way, its a KIND of progress! its a start. to at least admit there is a problem, that's good progress.

      however, step 2 is a bit harder to accomplish...

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  12. Sounds Legit... by They'reComingToTakeM · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Messrs Pot, Pot, Pot, Pot, Pot, Pot, Pot, & Pot - Meet Agent Black.

  13. That's our job by careysb · · Score: 5, Informative

    How dare you collect and analyze personal data on our clients! That's our job!

  14. Give up our security? by MonkeyDancer · · Score: 3, Funny

    Are they nuts? My Senator says "these tools are required to intercept and obstruct terrorism". He goes on to say that "we must never allow the terrorists to alter the freedoms that define our country and make us the greatest nation in the world". If we stop these programs then the terrorists win!

  15. AOL by simpz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Eight leading Internet firms, Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, AOL, Microsoft, LinkedIn, and Yahoo, have formed an alliance called Reform Government Surveillance group."

    As someone else pointed out "Seven leading Internet firms" and AOL

    Who's still using AOL , or is still paying for it and actually uses their service. I'm sure I read somewhere that a large percentage of their users are unaware that they no longer needed their AOL subscription to get online via broadband?

  16. Re:congrats guys and gals by tsa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Indeed, they want the NSA to just buy the information it needs from them.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  17. Re:congrats guys and gals by brianwski · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Isn't posting on my Facebook wall the same as actually doing something?

  18. He who votes decides nothing by Gothmolly · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He who COUNTS the votes decides everything. Good luck guys. Let us know how it works out for you.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  19. Re:congrats guys and gals by Desler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All they are doing is try to protect themselves and their businesses. They could give a shit less about the people being spied on. If they had really cared they would have done this years ago not simply when the egg splatted on their faces.

  20. Re:congrats guys and gals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So what? I don't give a shit what they are doing so long as they can get some kind of results. If I had to choose who was spying on me, I'd rather it be a company than a government. Companies can't misconstrue something that you said, send you to a prison camp and torture you.

  21. Re:congrats guys and gals by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Informative

    At least they are doing something. What have YOU done?

    Cancelled my accounts on Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft and Yahoo.

    --
    "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
    --- Jerry Garcia
  22. Re:congrats guys and gals by Tanktalus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Until this got leaked out into the public sphere, they were gagged by the same surveillance orders. They couldn't say anything without admitting they were served with secret subpoenas. Now that this is public knowledge, they can refer to those that were leaked and say this is bad for business/citizens without breaking the law on any further subpoenas.

    So, maybe they didn't care. Or maybe they did and just couldn't say anything about it due to the same evil law. From this vantage point, we still can't tell for sure.

  23. Re:congrats guys and gals by Desler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The "so what" is that they would have never done anything had there been no PR disaster. They would have continued to gladly give taps on their customer's data. Ignorants like yourself will believe this stunt is some genuine backlash when it's simply so they can save face and continue yo give over the data anyway.

  24. Re:congrats guys and gals by Charliemopps · · Score: 5, Insightful

    American corporations, and these 5, in particular, have shown a history of not minding deceitful marketing in the slightest. I feel no compelling reason to trust them.

    As well you shouldn't. But don't look a gift horse in the mouth. This is capitalism at work... our government doing the wrong thing has hurt their bottom line, so they are using their financial and political muscle to get change. This is a good thing. I, like you, doubt they are acting out of pure good will, but I'll take what I can get.

    2ndly, Google having my personal data is a bad thing, I agree... but it's orders of magnitude less dangerous than the government having that same data. At most, Google can annoy me with spam, hurt my credit rating, or use psychology to trick me into buying something I otherwise wouldn't have. The government on the other hand can imprison me, force me to implicate friends, blackmail me, or even torture and kill me. Lets work on the securing the serial killer in the room before we worry about the shady used car salesman.

  25. Re:congrats guys and gals by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The NSA does buy it from them.

    Now they are possibly just using the outrage to negotiate a higher price.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  26. Great PR by Zamphatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Fantastic PR here, but I'll wait and see if anything really comes of it. Sorry to say, I'm very skeptical that this is anything more than good press for these companies. At best, I think it's got very little to do with the 'freedom of the people' and a whole lot to do with the companies fear that the people aren't trusting them anymore. That hits the wallet. I'm sure that group of tech companies has enough cash to throw at Washington to get something done if they want to, but I'm not sure they want to. So like I said, I'll wait and see if anything really comes of this before I get my hopes up.

  27. Re:congrats guys and gals by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, I think they also want the NSA to keep it a secret this time, as people finding out about it causes headaches.

  28. Re:congrats guys and gals by Branciforte · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work at Google.

    Before anything was reported by Snowden, plans were already in place to protect user data. It started with the switch to HTTPS, continued with us encrypting user data on disk, and we were beginning to encrypt data that was transferred between datacenters. The revelation that the NSA was tapping into undersea cables only accelerated the timeline.